Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 89 - George Motz

Episode Date: January 25, 2022

The king of burgers George Motz helps save America and keep us well fed.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, it's our goal. Hey, it's time for Breaking Bread with Papa. Hey, don't you know? Hey, it's also a show. Hey. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I'm very excited for the show today. Oh, we're going to have a good time.

We have a special guest, George Motez, who is a hamburger officiato. If the hamburger had a publicist, a hype man, it would be George. He is a great guest, and we have a great conversation all about the great American food, The Hamburger. This man is dedicated his entire adult life to the hamburger. And you know, from listening to this podcast, I love when someone has an obsession about something that brings them joy in the food, drink, or comedy world. and George fits that description very well. We're going to have a great conversation with him. Also, I'd like to thank the good people at Better Help for supporting today's program.

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If you're watching this and you're on the YouTube and catching, catching me the video of me, I'm in a harsh fluorescent light. I have a strange headset on. There's a weird little lamp behind me. Bad artwork that looks like something known would ever buy. I have a very, very good. drab drapery over my left hand shoulder with piercing light trying to get through on the top. It sounds like Tommy's on the road. It looks like Tommy is on the road. Yeah, that's where I am.

I have been on the road since I spoke to you last. I have been on a long journey that has taken me from New York to Indianapolis to Chicago and currently in Pittsburgh before I return home and make Sunday dinner for my family tomorrow. Ah, it's been a great trip. I'm not complaining, but, you know, there are times when you check into a hotel and you're like, if I wasn't strong, if I wasn't on top of my game, this place might take me down. And this place, it'll be, when I throw the lights on, it'll be fine. You get this hotel drabness, and that's kind of where I'm at right now.

But I only bring it up and point out that I'm on the road because I want to share with you what has happened to me on the road. And it's been a thing that's been happening to me since the beginning of this podcast and the beginning of my food journey, which a lot of you are on as well. I had plenty of people come up when I was signing books in Chicago, when I met people in Indianapolis, when I was in New Jersey doing shows there and, of course, in New York, and people keep shouting out their favorite episodes saying which guests they like, that they listen to it all the time when they're cooking. It makes me very happy. So keep those messages coming even if you don't see me live because it gives me a good feeling that this is taking hold and we're all able to share and enjoy. And that's the whole point of this crazy.

endeavor. When I landed in New York, I headed to New York because I had a shows at the Performing Arts Center in New Jersey, and I was flying cross-country and reading one of my favorite authors, Jim Harrison. And I've spoken about Jim before. He was a great writer, wrote tons of books, tons of articles, a lot of poetry. And he's just a, he was a bigger than character who loved to eat and drink. And I apologize if I'm saying this for the 15th time, it easily could be, because I just admire him so much and his writing has such a great pace. But I will advise you. Don't read Jim Harrison on a plane on your way to a great food city like New York, unless you've got a fat wallet and don't mind increasing your fat body.

Because he, I was reading a really big lunch, which is a collection of his essays, I think from Esquire mostly, about him just writing about wine and food and this really big lunch, the essay that was the title of the book was about a 30-course meal that he had in France with these different chefs that put together this thing. And they wanted to, they took all, they took all recipes from, I don't know exactly what the demarcation was, but it was like, from like the 1700s, the early 1800s. For some reason, they took that, they wanted, they wanted, great meals cooked the way they were cooked way back then, and they were going to recreate them. And it was a lot of weird things like boar's head soup and, you know, a lot of wild game,

a lot of oysters and crem fresh, and a lot of, an insane, insane meal. But that meal isn't, the story about that meal actually is one thing, but it's just the over, the repeating of his joy of eating and drinking fine wines. And he's a guy that came from Upper Michigan, lived in the woods, you know, very blue-collar background, hunts, fishes, lives in the woods, that kind of a guy, big gruff guy, he's got like one eye. And he is not a guy that you would think, just from looking at his picture, that he would be a guy, just highlighting the best wines in the world. Doesn't even like California wines,

thinks that they're too thick and like paint. He just will write about a bottle of wine, a telegraph, a Vue telegraph from Chatea Nouve de Pop, and he will just go on about it. And he's such a good writer, and he's so passionate about it, and putting it with his amazing food, and he's always eating alone somewhere. And you don't expect it from him,

but before you know it, he's hammered, and he makes it seem like you should be doing it too. Because if this guy could do it, then anyone can do it. You don't have to be some highly educated, well-versed French food critic to really appreciate these wines from Burgundy and from Bandol. You're just, he's just an average guy, which makes his writing so deadly because he writes

about this stuff and you think, well, why aren't I doing this? Why aren't I eating like this? Now, footnote, side note, important to know, died in his 70s, and at the end of this book, he finds out he's got diabetes. So he's been eating this way's whole life and then gets money. He wrote Legends of a Fall and he was a screenwriter, who was kind of pals with Jack Nicholson, he was a crazy life. So he got some money at times and spent it on very expensive wine and food.

And all the stuff that you should eat like once in a blue moon, he seemed to be, if his writing is any indication, his steady diet against chicken breasts because it's too plain. He wants the thighs. He wants the grease. He wants the dark meat. He wants the skin. That kind of a guy. So I'm reading him all the way into New York and it totally, this has happened to me before. There were times when I read him and probably gained 10 pounds within two weeks. And I know it's coming, but I also, as a writer myself, I feel like you just have to keep reading the ones that get your brain popping. And Jim Harrison definitely does that for me. And so I knew what I was in for. I knew what I was in

for. And I landed in New York. And it was all still dusting off Omicron. Still the people are milling around, but it's very cold. The restaurant's pretty empty. Didn't have a lot of friends in town. I wasn't really going to the comedy seller. All my friends really weren't putting in for shows. Everybody was a little button down and not really going out and doing too much. So I knew I wasn't going to just roll into a steakhouse with a good friend. But I had Jim Harrison's inspiration in my head from the cab ride from JFK into the city. And within 10 minutes of being there,

I bought a, there's a nice wine shop around the corner from the hotel. And the whole time I'm doing this, I'm thinking Jim would be proud. And I went into this fine wine shop, spent maybe $30 on a Volpolo, Volpolo Podere Sapario. Probably butchering that name. All you have to know is it's an Italian red, a blend, and a beautiful, beautiful bottle. I went around the other corner. I got a smoked Gouda from this cheese shop and some bread. And that was it.

That was my, that was going to be my dinner for Friday night before I had my shows on Saturday. I checked into the hotel, brought up, I had this bottle of wine and this big chunk of cheese and this big thing of bread. and I just watched whatever. I think there's some basketball game or something. I forget even what I watched. And I just hold up. A storm was coming. And I just popped open that bottle and ate that cheese.

And it was heaven. It was literally heaven. I was like, Jim would be proud. If it stopped there, you'd be like, what's the problem? Why would you not read Jim Harrison on your way into a nice city? But it's not there because you have, you have, you have, or just run the course, things that pop up in your head and ways of living. And I went to Aladoro, which is my favorite sandwich shop in New York. And I got the Michelangelo, which is this

prosciutto and provolone and spicy peppers and oil and vinegar on this beautiful roll. And I, you should only eat half of it. And of course, I ate the whole thing. And I was off to the races. I was just going to try and find the finer things that I could. And I went out. off to New Jersey and I did my shows and I came back and then the storm did hit and I was going to meet up with a friend and I that did that fell through and I will say I was an inch from going across the street to Il Molino to this Ilmolino prime which is this amazing steakhouse very expensive it's so great but it really is why I literally had I stood in my hotel room by myself having a debate with myself,

why do you think you deserve to spend that kind of money on a steak by yourself? What are you doing? Who are you going to enjoy this with? Well, I'm going to enjoy it. It will be me. I'm working really hard, and I had two good shows last night. Why shouldn't I? Because a steakhouse is something you do with other people.

That's when you go out and celebrate life and you enjoy sharing with others. Yeah, but I'm really hungry. Jim Harrison would probably do it. Jim Harrison has passed away. He was diabetic. Stop doing it. And I did that night just go downstairs and get a turkey sandwich from the bodega. I feel proud of myself that I put the brakes on and steered away from it. But then I flew off to Indianapolis. And in Indianapolis, my good friend, Fortune, told me about a hotel that had this great restaurant. called Provision in this Ironworks Hotel in Indianapolis, out of downtown. And I was like, it's probably okay. It was amazing. It was amazing. These people, every dish I got from there, and I ate from them twice, a chicken dish one night,

this charred romaine with this big, thick anchovies, so good. I couldn't believe it. I was like, holy cow, fortune really nailed it. And the next night I had salmon. And it really was like, it made me think when I get home, I've got to make, I have to step up my game. The amount of fresh goodness that was on top of this salmon, I'm always just making salmon and putting it out there almost like it's a like a pill you have to take. She was so great to recommend that. And I was so happy to be there.

But again, you know, pounding it out. And then backstage in Indianapolis, they gave me beers from the Triton Brewing Company who made this amazing IPAs. I was going to say APAs. IPAs. And I had that, but not too bad. And then I decided, all right, let's downshift a little bit. Sure, that's great logic.

Let's downshift as we're going to Chicago. I'm going to Chicago to play the city winery. And I had two shows there. and I met my friend in the, of course, where I'm staying was in the Renaissance food district in the West Loop of Chicago. And thankfully, all the restaurants weren't open, but when I was, before I was doing my show, but I met my friend Brian and we went to Little Goat, an amazing restaurant. It's like a diner, but with all of the best stuff, I had fresh corned beef hash and eggs.

and sourdough toast. Like when you get corned beef hash like in a Greek diner in New Jersey and it's all kind of like, you know, mushed up like Alpo. This was big chunks. It was like just corn beef. Imagine corned beef

taken off a sandwich and mixed together with potatoes and your eggs and oh boy. So good. And then I go to the city winery. I do my shows and they give me a bottle of Pino Noir and I'm drinking that. by myself. I'm so happy. So happy. Brought my friend Erica Rhodes with me. She's drinking her white wine. I'm drinking that. Just a nice, a nice cap. And now I talk to you from Pittsburgh, my last night,

and we only have one show, so we have an opportunity to eat something. And I asked around, and the thing that came back to me, if you really want to do something, Pittsburgh, go to the Pramante brothers, I may be mispronouncing that. What's that, I ask? It's a sandwich with meat and French fries and coleslaw on the sandwich. If you want to do something really Pittsburgh, that's where you go. No, thank you. I don't think so. But I don't know. The battle's not over. But Jim Harrison's hold on me is definitely waning. I'm heading back home. I'll make a simple Italian meal tomorrow night. I'll just be happy to doing my own cooking in my own house and I will be restored. And also, I'll get my butt on a bike and sweat a little, which I haven't done since I left.

Is it the greatest? Yes. Is it something, is this a way you should live? Once in a while, but not, but that's a great tour. I'm just looking at the list. That's a great. That's a great. little tour. And also a lot of solo stuff. And Jim always wrote about being solo in these restaurants. And I was kind of on my own because the Omicron is, you know, I don't want to get out of this without getting it. And I'm close. I feel like I'm close. All the numbers are dropping and I'm close. I can possibly dodge it. So to go into crowded places, I just was solo. And this was nice. but I have to say the bottle of wine and the cheese on that first night, that was my proudest moment. This is a great setup, by the way, for our guest, George Motes.

He really, when you're talking about the quintessential American food, the burger. The burger is up there. That is one of America's signature dishes. and what's great about George, you'll see in the conversation. He's very passionate and very knowledgeable. And he made a documentary, is what started the whole thing called Hamburger America, where he talks to these people in these little one-off shops,

not like the big chain restaurants, just little places that were making burgers who didn't even know why they were really that important. and he, as great documentaries do, shines a light on this culture and these people and the thing that they're doing. And as I'm traveling to all of these cities, and we're going through this time in the country where people are worried that we're against each other, et cetera, et cetera, and the parties are yelling at each other, you know, you know. When you get out there and you're around people on every day. The temperature is lowered from what you see on the news, and people are just

turning out in burger places. And that used to be the thing that people would lead their conversations with. What do you like to eat? Have you ever tried this burger? Not who did you vote for, not what are your politics. For some reason, that's an opener now. And hopefully it'll go away. And when people like George shining a light on the burger and this conversation, and I hope you check out his stuff. Burgerland was his show on the travel channel. Go to his website. He's M-O-T-Z, and he's always slinging it and always promoting it, the burger in that, and in a way, that way of life. And it's such a great thing, because these are the things that we really enjoy. Who the hell wants to talk about health care? Who the hell wants to talk about gerrymandering? I'd rather talk about a

burger. And so does the other side. And everybody just wants to get along and just have a good time. And the burger, I hate to put too much weight on it, but I really do find that there is some meaning in it. And George is a great spokesperson for a way of life and just delicious burgers. So enjoy now the conversation with the one and only George Motes. Well, thanks for being here, George. This is really a treat. I'm very excited to talk with you. As I was mentioning off air, I'm loved when people are obsessed with things, as I am with bread baking.

And I went down this wormhole and I never came out of it. And I'm still obsessed and still love talking about it. So I'm going to love talking to you about burgers. Yeah, I love bread too, though. Oh, that's good. Did you, what started the obsession? Was it, was it purely out of a love of burgers? Or was it, you ended up with some gig where they got introduced to you?

Like, what, give me the origin story. The quick origin story is that about 20 years ago, I made a film called Hamburger America, just for fun. I was working as a director of photography, traveling around the country. And I would notice that there are places like these mom and pop hamburger joints. that I wanted to check out and eventually would say, oh, you know, I'm going to stay on the road for a couple of days and go check out this place in Wisconsin or check out this place in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and bring a camera and record people telling me their stories about why they did what they did.

I learned pretty quickly they had no idea what they were doing. They didn't, I mean, they knew what they were doing. They didn't know why they were important. They couldn't figure out why I was obsessed with them. Right, right. That's interesting because I did this thing, with a similar thing with bakeries. And I would go around and talk to these people.

And I would treat them like they were like stars. And they were like, I just make this shit every day. Right? Yeah. You're seeing yourself like this. I mean, you guys are making great burgers.

You do it every day. And they're like, what's the big deal? Go away. You're right. So what? We are celebrating that we need to celebrate people like that. This is why I started to realize I need to,

I need to make a film about this. Yeah. I need to know about it. The film ended up getting a kind of a cult following, ended up with, made a book, a travel book called Hamburger America, the Travel Guide. Yeah. Covered 100 places.

Now, the next one covered 150. It turned into a TV show. It was pretty wild. It was a crazy couple of years there. And then about 10 years ago, 10 years ago, it was inducted into the National Archives as the film was as a piece of culinary American history. So cool. That is so great.

How much of the story for you is it a cultural American story and how much of it is a food story? Ooh, I'd say half and half. Yeah. 50-50. Originally, I thought it was going to be, you know, 95% food, 5% the people who are making it, really. Yeah. And I realized that it was equal, equal amounts of, you know, this beautiful American story, like, you know, this hardworking, you know, American story of, ingenuity, an invention, really, and also about the food because they were, you know,

there's not just one type of hamburger out there. And it's also not just one type of stunt burger. It's not just one, there's not a bunch of stunt burgers out there. They're actually a real, regional hamburgers, which I discovered, which are beloved in their areas. Right, right. Did you, when you say it's on the, on the, the, the cultural people part of it, was it, was it striking you like that these people were making it and it was their kind of like their story or was it a reflection of the people who were eating it and like what it what it did to the people in the community of like why why was america eating burgers I was never so interested in people were eating and why they were eating it because they were just there to do whatever the people

who were making the burgers were doing. I was more fascinated in the fact that there were generational. It was a generational thing where you'd have, you know, somebody who built a restaurant would own it for 20 years and say, you know what? I'm going to hand it off to my daughter or my cousin or something.

And then it would go on for another 20 years and it would be this extended family and people who walk in to the rest of, restaurant would say to you, you know, this is the grandson of the guy who made the first, you know, and I had this amazing, these amazing stories, this lineage and which they didn't even realize they had, they really had their own histories. Right, right. What is the, what is the, what is the general history of the burger in America? The general history is that it came to America through New York, immigrants coming from Germany. They would leave out of the port of Hamburg,

and they would get to the states and they would find the people who came before them, other German immigrants had set up small Hamburg steak stands all over lower Manhattan. And it was hamburger steak was basically chopped meat, chopped beef, sorry, chopped beef, very important, cook somehow paddied and pattying cooked somehow and served with potatoes and gravy. Oh, okay. Or just a fork. At some point, it migrated with the Germans to the Midwest. And at that point, it became a portable food when it ended up going to state fairs.

And people don't realize that the hot. dog predates as a portable food that predates the hamburger by about 12 years, which is also a staple of the state fair. Right. You can imagine if you were selling Hamburg steaks with gravy and a knife and a fork, and you see a hot dog block by and go like, that's a great idea. That's a great idea. Next thing is it.

Hamburg steak on a bun or actually not even a bun back then. It was a piece of bread. Right, right. And that was German also, right? The hot dog was German. Right. Right. Well, Hamburg came from Hamburg.

and Frankfurters came for Frankfurt. Right. Man, the state fairs, they are powerful forces. Absolutely, absolutely. And then do you know who was like the first, who was the first hamburger stand or like of note? Yeah, of course. One of those great questions.

No, I don't know. No one's ever because it's believed, of course, and again, the same as people not realizing how important it was that they made hamburgers. was really not important. It was just a thing. It was just a thing so you can keep going at the fair.

It was not important at all. And so there were no records of who really invented the hamburger or when it happened. We do know that it probably happened in eight different places, almost at the same time. It's really hard to pinpoint who was the first. People love to say, oh, it was Fletch Davis in Texas. No, it was Charlie Negrine and in Wisconsin. and I know all these names because people talk to me about this all the time, literally talking at me and trying to explain to me that my grandfather invented

the kid. I don't think you may have, but it didn't really become a big thing until the hamburger became popular because of White Castle in 1920. White Castle is the 20s. Yeah. It predates everybody. They're one of the most important hamburger restaurants stories. in America right there because they basically they saved the American hamburger from imminent demise.

Why was it? What do you mean why demise? Well, because at that point, because of a guy named, holy space, he's name now, the jungle, Upton Sinclair, wrote a book called The Jungle. Right. And the early part of the 20th century, it was all about the woes of the meatpacking industry in Chicago. everybody who's turned off to to beef, packed beef at that point. Mostly ground beef is considered considered just, I mean, hands off.

It's no, it could be humans. It could be animals. Who knows? Other animals, rats. Oh, man. Yeah. The story, up in St. Clair wrote a very, very brave story back then. But it did actually, it created the need for like the FDA.

And the FDA came around and federal, you know, oversight for meat and food, the food industry. at that point. Yeah. It took years, and it was White Castle, was the first hamburger restaurant to start to openly grind food, grind beef in the restaurant, serve fresh ground patties, and then educate people to why, you know, hamburger is a good thing, basically. And they were white castle.

So they were white, so the place was clean and white. It was always super clean. They would always, you know, hose it down at the end of every day. And it was the little reunits were actually based on the Chicago Water Tower. which was like a small little castle. Right, right. Yeah, I know that spot. Ability, you know, that was the...

Right, right. And so it was Chicago. It started in Chicago, White Castle? Actually didn't. It started in Topeka, Kansas. Topeka, Kansas. Man, you're blowing my mind

on all these perceptions I've carried my whole life. I growing up in New Jersey always just thought it was a northeast. It had to be a New York thing because they were so dominant when I was a kid. New York is a play. It plays a very important part, though,

because New York was the, the idea of something called the New York, New York style, New York system of the White Castle hamburger started in New York, basically. Or sort of kind of, people, it may have started in Ohio, may have started New York, but it was where they added onions to the burger. And if you know, if you ever had a White Castle slider, it's, it's addictive. It's one of those things we're like, okay, that's. Yeah. I'm not advocating for the today's White Castle. You know, I think it's kind of lost its way, unfortunately. but the original White Castle Burger,

it really is one of, it is the most important burger, I think, in America. Wow, that is amazing. My father was obsessed with him, and we would go, and I just have this very vivid memory of sitting in the car in the winter,

and we had so many of them lined up on the dashboard. It was just like, how many could you eat? And the place was, the car windows were all steamy, just sitting there plowing down these white castles. Oh, it was heaven. It was really cool.

There's still places in America where you can go and get an original white castle style hamburger. One of them is in Jersey in Hackenstein. Oh. Oh. And surprisingly, the place is called White Manna because at that point, if you were in the 1920s and 30s, if you were not putting the word white in the word as a word in your restaurant name, you weren't going to sell hamburgers. Oh. What is the, what's the difference between a modern white castle on Route 17 and the original verse? version that you're talking about.

It's a little complicated, but let's just say that, you know, at some point, they were innovating in the 40s and they went to frozen patties because they were able to freeze meat during World War II to, for meat rationing. So they started to stockpile and freeze meat. And then they invented, they basically by accident invented the frozen patty, which they realized, oh my God, we can make, we can store these for years. Probably kind of went down at that point. There's still, I mean, there's still good burgers.

They're just not the fresh ground beef burgers. The good news is that there were places that that held on to the tradition, the original tradition, and now here literally 100 years later, almost to the day, they're still making those burgers. Wow. The way White Castle used to make them. Wow. That's impressive. There are 40 or 50 in America that I know of. Oh, really?

And are they all like single one-offs or is it like chains? Some of them are small chains. Most of them are just one-offs or they were chains out of it down to one unit. but old mom and pop places that have little sliders with onions on them that are nothing but you know nothing but onions and beef and bread that's it yeah oh man oh man they're so good everybody's got a struggle right everybody's got something to work through everybody's got obstacles everybody has things that they have to accomplish and their own brain getting in the way or issues that have happened to you maybe some some tragedies maybe some things that are

just confusing, maybe some things that are just unsettling. And these little roadblocks get in your way as you're going about your year and trying to do the best that you can. And sometimes you're able to go it alone, and sometimes you need a little help. Well, the good people at better help are there for you. And I really encourage, if you're in the need of talking to somebody and figuring some stuff out, and just want to bounce some things off, or maybe you've got some real issues and you haven't and able to fix them up yourself and your friends and family aren't really getting you through it, maybe you need to talk to somebody. Better Help will assess your needs and match you with your own licensed professional therapists.

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How did you, like at what point when you're making the film and you're, you're starting to, your brain's starting to percolate and your taste buds are percolating, did you start to hone in on like what was your favorite, like the stuff that's, you, how did your palate, your burger palette mature and at what point in making the film? Well, I had a major turning point way before I made the film that caused me to really become obsessed with hamburgers. And that was I ate a burger for the first time at the apple pan in Los Angeles. So I don't know if you've been to the apple pan.

It is a mom and pop. It's a place that time forgot. You walk in there and there are white paper caps and the crisp white aprons and can I help you? It's like the throwback to 1940 something. Yeah. That is truly, it's an icon. And it is a wonderful place to eat.

It's a wonderful place to sort of learn about hamburger culture. Because it's not just not about sustenit. It's not about eating. it's also about, you know, the place. You know, there's, you know, red tartan plaid wallpaper that just goes way back. And I don't think it's ever changed. And they do change it,

but they've never, never changed the look of the place. It is a wonderful place. Yeah. And that, that first time I actually appreciated the American hamburger. It was sitting there at, you know, at midnight. Yeah.

Oh, that's amazing. Yeah, those places, they just have, that stuff where they, it's actually, these people aren't working at a. hamburger place. This is their profession, right? Yeah. No, they worked there for 50 years in some cases. Right, right. Oh, my God. And was the quality of it? How much of it was the quality of the burger and the store and how much of it was like the atmosphere of the place?

Well, I've always said that if you, if you were going to like, you know, make yourself a Pina-Colada in your kitchen, that tastes great, whatever. But then you have a Pina-Colada and you're sitting on the beach and the ocean's there and you're like, it's the same freaking Pina-Colada, but it tastes so much better. You know? So it's hard to say. If I were to make the same burger at the apple home, it wouldn't taste the same. It wouldn't taste as good as sitting there and just sucking up that environment.

Yeah. And having someone else make it. That's a good part too. But I watched a video of yours when you were making, I think it was the double stack that came from Bob's Big Boy. Yeah. And man, oh man. First of all, your videos are so great to watch. Everybody should go check them out.

You have so much great content between the books and the online stuff and appearances on Fallon and all this stuff. You're very watchable. I really get a kick out of it. And you are very American. There is a definitely an American vibe to you. You're not a guy that's rolling around Venice. This is. And I love watching.

But when you say like cooking at home, you're basically in your apartment, it looks like, and you're making this burger that originated at Bob's Big Boy. and I'm telling you that thing makes me so hungry that you making that so far from where Bob's big boy is. I'm like that version of your thing. Holy cow. It makes you want to just run to the supermarket and get all the ingredients. Which is important to think of the ingredients because what I do is I try to make, make sure that people understand like the importance of the exact ingredients and the exact ratios

and how to make that burger because otherwise you can slip up by a little bit by, I don't want a white bun. I want a wheat bun. And then you're somewhere else. And you're going away. Oh, I don't want iceberg. I want green leaf lettuce.

No, you're getting away from it again. So until you actually think about all those elements and the ingredients, how they work together, we even go through, we're looking at burgers and we're dissecting them. We make sure that the layers are correct. Like the sauce is not on top of sauce. It should be on the bottom, whatever it is.

Right. Because that really becomes part of the flavor profile, how you build that burger. Right, right. Yeah, when you went pretty quickly by it when you were putting it together and you're like, and you say like you have the chopped iceberg lettuce into the leafy stuff. And I, it was like, oh, shit, he's right. I mean, every time I ruin something I make at home, it's because I'm using the big leafy, bogus part of it.

Exactly. And I always say, hey, you know what? Bob's Big Boy, they'll make, you know, a thousand of those next, you know, this week or 2000 or $2,000 or $3,000. Why would you want to make your own version of that burger when that's the burger you really want? Right. Right, exactly. How many, what are the, because the Bob's big boy from that video, that was the, I think it's double stack, is that what it's called? Double stack, but it's only one slice of cheese. Right. Double stack with one slice of cheese. And it was so cool.

The Big Mac, the Big Mac also only has one slice of cheese, but the Big Mac was invented like 20, 30 years later. Right, right. What were the, what were the, what were the, um, So the double stack is like this one version, this one thing. And then you've got like the double, double it in and out. What are the, in the timeline, what are like the, you have the, you start off with the White Castle with those, those burgers. And what are the, what are the big markers? Like when do we get to the cheeseburger? When do you get to the big things?

And what are those? White Castle, so White Castle 1921. You have the 1930s, you have Bob's Big Boy. I forgot what year now. Right. Drawing a blank. Then at the same time, McDonald's,

in and out and Carl's Jr. A lot of them happened at the same time at that point in the 1940s. Early, late 30s, early 40s. Okay. Then you get into, you don't really get into like the Whopper and the Big Mac until the 60s.

Oh, wow. Forget about that. It really was not a thing in the fast food. I'm not really good at speaking about the fast food world. It's like I only focus on mom and pops. Yeah. I do know some of the timeline. And, you know, it's amazing how things like steak and shake existed way before all of them.

They're probably the 1930s, steak and shake. Right. Man, it's amazing, like that the origin of all that stuff is all around that same time, that they're all just popping up at that same thing. What is more popular? What is more popular? This is just an out of the hot dogs or hamburgers. Definitely hamburgers.

They are, right? Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, by a long shot, I would imagine. By a long shot, I think that hot dogs have fallen off in popularity and just recently for sure, because of something that we call the Better Burger category, the burger has had a meteoric rise that has left the hot dog in the dust, unfortunately. I mean, I love hot dogs. Yeah. In the dust.

Yeah. What are these, what are some of the modern things? Because burgers have, they have popped up in a lot of different places, very swanky cocktail bars and places and they did have like a big gold rush. What are some, what are the, are there some that are too pretentious? Like is there,

yeah. I see most are two pretentious. Yeah. I stick to beef, cheese, bun. I mean, I pretty much stick to the basics. Those are the, I really want.

And I tell people all the time that if you're looking for a great burger, you look for the one that's going to, you're going to say to yourself, I'm going to come back tomorrow or next week for that, Not the one that, oh, that was so rich. And I'll see you next month or next year. That's not a hamburger really should be a daily eater sort of thing. And you're going to go back every year.

But think about the burger that you said that was just so satisfying because it just went right to that point where I'm satisfied as opposed to like, oh, I'm like, I'm so stoned on this burger. It's so good. You know, that's not really what you're unfortunately. Right. Yeah. You don't need a sledgehammer to the gut and to your brain.

Or even just even like or a sledgehammer to the wallet. The other thing I can't stand is people who make burgers that are, it could be, it's worth it, I'm sure to spend that much money for a burger. But the reality is that the roots of a burger are really based on, on affordability and accessibility. And some burgers out there that are, they're fantastic. You know, they know who they are. They're great. If you can afford it, sure, knock yourself out.

But the reality is that you're really going to go back and eat the daily beater every day, every time. Right. Right. Yeah, exactly. I mean, that is, that is when you talk about it being like an American story. I mean, that is kind of the thing, right? It's like the everyman stuff. It's not the, it's not the fancy, you know, Bordeaux.

It's a can of beer. The good size of that, though, is that the, the Better Burger category was prompted in a way by the gourmet food industry or restaurant, their fine dining that started to put, you know, the lowly hamburger on their menus. Right. And that did actually prompt places that were using frozen beef to switch to fresh, which you've got this whole legion of people that either open restaurants 10 years ago or change their ways 10 years ago to include fresh ground beef instead of frozen. And that did actually help to jumpstart or kickstart a sort of a resident renaissance in the world of hamburgers. This is why you're talking to me because, I mean, I would have been some wacky guy going like, ah, burger is burger. but it's because of the popularity of the burger and it's the freshness of the burger that can be that has that has basically made me relevant right right exactly you caught the wave yeah exactly

what's your favorite side oh that's a good question people people know me people who know me know that i don't eat french fries very often unless they're really good just a personal taste Just a personal taste? You just never into them? No, I just, I think most French fries are bad. They're just, they're not, not satisfying. Right. How many times if you had a French fryer, you're like, oh, man, it sucks.

It's cold or, you know, you never say that very often. Very infrequently, do you say that about a hamburger? Right. As a side, honestly, beer, where I tell people, skip the fries and get another burger. Right. And double up. Exactly. You've written a lot of books.

You've written, I think it said 11 books? No, no. No? I've written four now. So three are the same book that was updated twice. Okay. So this hamburger market, the guide book, and then there's also the cookbook, which we just got the green light to do the update for the cookbook. So that's happening.

Oh, nice. Yeah. Nice. And has it has this kind of, has it opened up? that skill in you? Like are you, do you cook more? Do you,

are you expanding out? Because I saw you also had things, even your videos are listed, not burgers. Yeah. Well, people, Instagram has sort of changed the way I,

way I do a lot of things now. It's pretty fascinating. Yeah. I have a bunch of fans who will look at my Instagram stories. And I post everything I meet, pretty much everything I eat goes on Instagram stories. And also that does keep me eating well. So I only,

I don't, you know, to post it and say, oh, why did you eat that? That does happen, though. But I've noticed that once I'm posting stuff on Instagram to eat, people do want to know what I'm eating or how I made that. And I cook a lot. I come from a long lot of my entire family.

We're all cooks. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we're all family cooks, family. We're all learned from my grandmother and my mother who's a great, great cook. What was, where did you grow up? Where was your grandmother? I grew up in Long Island.

My grandmother, South Carolina, though. my mom is from South Carolina and was plucked from South Carolina about my father, who lived in New York. And so she became a northerner. She's still in her heart. And she is amazing in the kitchen because she doesn't do much. It's almost like she just sees a couple of ingredients. He goes, okay, with dinner.

And then how'd you do that? Oh, really? It's totally effortless, effortless. Yeah. So we all learned from her that way. Is it a southern flare? Does she, what, like, when you were a kid, what is the thing that you were, I'm excited about.

Is that she just, I don't know, all moms are different. My mother is, every once in a while, she has this like hankering for, for pork fat. I mean,

she's like, she'll call me, she'll say, mama needs ribs. I totally, I get that. It makes sense, right? You know,

mama needs ribs. I grew up eating southern breakfast. So grits and ham. Oh, wow. I grew up eating pretty much everything. But I learned how to, the one thing that the southerners are much better at

than anybody. else I feel like is deep frying. Yeah. People think, ooh, deep frying and it's got unhealthy and it never tastes right. So if you're a southerner, deep frying is in your blood, literally. I mean, it's you know how to deep fry. And there's real science to it that really only Southerners can pull off. Also, southern men cook more than anybody in the country because they're all hunters and

gatherers. Oh, I never put that together. They cook in the field. So if you see a lot of like these like burly men who are out in the field, hunting, they also all know how to cook, whether you're in Louisiana, North Carolina, South Carolina. They're all. So, you know, I learned, I learned a lot from, uh, from my mom, uh, because of her southern food routes for sure. Yeah. So would you cook, is it when, when you were a kid, would you cook alongside her? Would you? No, I mean, we, I did once in a while. I mean,

my story was that my parents split up. My mom had to work two jobs. So I ended up, as a kid, as a very young kid, cooking for my entire family. I was the oldest and cooked for everybody after school because she had a night job. I learned a lot about cooking when you're, you know, trial by fire. Yeah. Yeah. It's not so artsy-fartsy at that point when you just want to get people fed.

Yeah, where are my chicken nuggets? Yeah. But it was you learned a lot. I learned about timing and everything else. And my mom taught me all about cooking, just mostly by osmosis. But also, in the last 15 years or so, I spent a lot of time in the kitchen with her and we go through cookbooks and we go through. through old recipes from my grandmother, her grandmother.

And we've been really doing a lot of research and having a ton of fun, just getting into the kitchen and bouncing ideas off each other. Wow, man, that could be another book. Oh, I hope so. Yeah, really. I mean, that's the best. We have, you know, it's very important that stuff because a lot of it gets lost, unless you were actually sit down with them.

And my mother did a thing where she took all her old recipes and put them down into this book and gave them to us for Christmas. And it's like, you know, it's your mom's recipes. There's missing ingredients. There's like there's no, there's no real like measurements. You know, it's just kind of like, but we all kind of, if you grew up with, yeah, you know, you kind of get a sense of what it is. But, and my sister has a, an index card box filled with all my grandmother's stuff.

And it's like, oh, man, that should be, we should make 20 copies of that. Yeah, no, you definitely should. I mean, that's the most important thing about cooking is having a record of it. and, you know, I started working on the cookbook for the first time I realized that, well, I really, you know, I actually used my own cookbook to cook. Yeah, yeah. I'm like, where did I write that down? Oh, it's in my own book.

Duh, that's where. Yeah, yeah. So is there is when you're evolving like this, is there, I mean, burgers are, of course, always going to be your, your staple. Is there another kind of category that would carry that kind of story even? Does they even exist? pizza maybe or everything i think everything is a story and everything yeah i just one of the very first to find the story on hamburgers i mean i i truly believe that if you point a camera at

somebody um you can probably get a great story out of them and when i made the first film what i did was i i purposely didn't put any kind of voiceover there's no titles there's no um subtiles or anything any explanation to explain what's happening yeah i'm a big fan of uh errol morris the filmmaker Errol Morris, who made a film called Vernon. His first film was called Vernon, Florida. And it literally is just a camera pointed at people, and they're telling their story. And I figured if they can't tell their story without me interjecting, then they don't have a story to tell. Interesting.

Yeah. I profiled eight different hamburger restaurants. And you never hear my voice ever. One time you do, but it was just for, I did like a Hitchcock thing where I threw myself in there. But other than that, it's pretty much they tell the story and it's a good story. Wow. I'm not a story in anything, anything. Yeah, yeah.

Are you still into making films? Yeah, I still, I do now commercial stuff for clients and, you know, that's pretty much, I've never, I haven't really have had a, it's been a long times that I've made a really good film that I, you know, that, that, that we're about a subject that I love. But I was working on a Southern trilogy. My entire family is in the stripping and the, in the, in the, in the oyster business in South Carolina. Oh, wow. So I made two films about, made a film about shrimp,

I made a film about oystering in South Carolina. And I was working on the trilogy. The third part was moonshine. Oh, wow. And I got almost finished with it and then I stopped, but I'll get back to that. And there's been a lot of requests to make Hamburger America to make the second film, which I would love to go make. Yeah, that would be great.

Can I see the other films that you're talking about, the shrimp and the oyster? Yes, they're out there somewhere. They're maybe on my website. I can't remember where they are anymore. I'll do the detail. Yeah. the work. I got it. But I would love to see it. I mean, really, those

that sounds pretty amazing. I made the shrimp film and there were about maybe 15, 20 people in the film who were in the business and the shrimp business and some some shrimpers, some people on land, people from restaurants I was speaking to. And then someone said to me, do you realize that you're related

to every single person in the entire in the entire yeah. Entire film? Entire film. Really? Every single one. Yeah. That's hilarious. That's roots.

Yeah, you know, it's funny because we're, I mean, I know if it's funny, but it's, it's, to not put too much weight on what you do, but there's that thing, like that, that America, the truly American story of the burger. And it really is. And like when you see like the south, the southern California version and then you have the northeast and then you've got to Chicago and, and during this week when we're talking about all the divisiveness and the insurrection and all this stuff that's going on. It seems to me like there's all of these, we just need more voices like this that are just

praising the things that we all have in common because I really do believe that's more of that that stuff. I agree. I mean, actually, when that happened last year, I posted the cover of the New York Times and I said, hey, not to be political, I just said, hey, we're better than this. Yeah. And what I really meant was, you know, we should be focusing on things like the hamburger. For real.

we're good at we're good at being hamburger people we're good at appreciating all the things that make us American why are we being so divisive what the hell is going on? Yeah. I just was very embarrassing

It was a very embarrassing moment for the country, I think, obviously for the world, really. Yeah, it was horrible. Yeah, it was really horrible. It was really horrible. Yeah, no, 100%. And it's really no joke.

I mean, I don't know if it's even reality because I think that's just, they're just noisy. I bet more people when they meet each other are asking, do you know where there's a good burger, than they are what party did you vote for? Exactly. Exactly right.

And you go to a, that I say about the hamburger, it is apolitical and from the most part. It's just, it's about getting along with the community and enjoying the people you're reading with. And I don't think people are really hard to find sort of like a,

you know, a combative hamburger joint. Right, exactly. I know. Yeah, and the people that go into the business. You sit over there. You know, no, this is just, let's all just eat. This is time to eat.

This is we're all, we're eating to get out of here quickly or the opposite is to be there for a while. Yeah. Yeah, be out on the road with your low blood sugar intact. All right. Two more questions I have on before we go about a little more specific. One, my wife wanted me to ask what's your position on veggie burgers. where should I where should I position them? Yeah.

What's your take? Are there good ones? Are they, should they be in the category? It's unfortunately, the answer is very long. But I won't get it. I won't give you the long.

I'll give you the short answer, which is, you know, really you're better off to eating a hamburger. Veggie burgers are funny because the ones that are actually made with vegetables, they're just like, they're like vomit.

They're not, They're not like they're mushy, like, you know, vomit piles. I don't think they're not very, I guess they're tasty. They can't be tasty, but they're not a burger anymore because a burger, unfortunately, a burger is defined as fresh ground beef, fresh ground beef and cook somehow. Right. You get into a veggie burger, you don't have that. You know, you have like something of a crab cake, you know, they have like something else going on there, which is not. Right.

It's more of a vehicle to put it at your mouth, I guess, I guess. But I don't know. Then you get the other side of which is the beyond beef thing, which makes me bonkers, it makes me insane. Why? Because it's made with, you know, well, we did a count once. And the impossible beef has 20, more than 21 ingredients in it. Whoa. To mimic a bad burger.

Right. Orsha. Yeah. I've done the taste test. I've almost gotten bed with those guys. You know, Mach 1 was like, ah, you're getting there. And then mock 2 was like, oh, that's pretty close. But still, it's like the not, they had the mouth feel down, didn't have the flavor down.

Yeah. They're getting there. I do think there's a place for it. it for sure. I wouldn't say no to it. I would just say that unfortunately, you know, the two examples I'm thinking of, and actually a third example I haven't even brought up yet, which is the, which is like the Boca burger, the frozen or the one that looks like it's supposed to be a hamburger. Yeah. Yeah. I'm eating a hamburger. I'm having a Boca burger. It's like, no, that's like the worst example of a burger. It's like a frozen, you know, like a piece of

crap. Right. You're eating the equivalent of a frozen like a frozen like high school patty. Right. Yeah. Yeah. It's very school cafeteria. I think they're living large. I'm like, no, no, you're not. Also, when I was talking to enough to get into details here, but I was talking to some people about like Beyond Beef and Impossible. And I realize that they're not gunning for the vegetarians. They couldn't give a crap about vegetarians. Vegetarians only make up 4% of the American consumer. Wow. 4%. So what are they going to do with 4%? They want the other 96% of people to be eating beyond it impossible. Right, right, right. Yeah, it's interesting because my kids don't eat it, eat meat,

and they don't like the impossible because of the fake blood. It's almost too meaty for them. They're like, it turns them off. Hey, I would, there's so much good vegan food out there. Just sick with vegan. Yeah, just go. Make the burger. Let the burger be its thing.

Yeah. Let the vegan thing be its thing. I enjoy. I had vegan dinner two nights ago. I mean, yeah, yeah, that's fine. Yeah, but yeah, don't call yourself a burger. All right. And then ketchup.

You seem to be very anti-catchup. Yes, there's a reason for that is because ketchup is too sweet. It's a very overpowering sweetness as well. Yeah. I like barbecue sauce, which is basically ketchup with lots of spices in it. But it still is sweet, but it has a much more, you know, much more robust flavor to it. It's much more well-rounded. Ketchup is just one big, like, it's like a tomatoy, you know, like maple syrup to me.

Yeah, I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. Even with fries, even if I go fries, I'll go mustard. Oh, wow. Yeah, I like mustard on fries too. I was like mayo on fries. Yeah. I don't like ketchup on fries.

But when I, on a burger, the problem with the being on a burger is you really want to taste the meat and the cheese, which is on a very different side of the flavor profile than ketchup. So what happens with ketchup is that it literally just takes over and controls the, the flavor right um of the burger end up with a sweet like sugar bomb which i don't want when i'm eating a hamburger yeah yeah i was thinking sugar bomb when you were talking all right um anything anything you've got uh you want to point them to um yes i think that follow me on instagram mottz burger moats burger that's probably the best way to i'm i update that all the time

awesome um i'll say now we're um we're considering opening a restaurant I was thinking that. Finally getting back on the road doing some traveling. And I'm going to Europe, I think in February. And then we're doing Smorgasburg and Los Angeles next week.

So we're definitely doing stuff. So we're out there finally doing stuff. Oh, that's great. What do you mean when you're doing smorgasbord? Oh, I'm cooking. Oh, really? Five years ago when I made the cookbook,

somebody in a news show said, can you make a burger in front of the audience and talk about it in seven minutes? Sure. I'll do the Oklahoma a fried onion burger. And I made that burger for the crowd, well, not for the crowd, for the host in front of the crowd. And the host took one bite and said, wow, it's really good. I grabbed that of our hand, took a bite and I said, that is good. And so it became known as

like my burger, which it's not my burger. It's from Oklahoma, but it's a very simple burger. It's five ingredients. It's basically bun, salt, cheese, beef, and onion. That's it. And those together, when you cook it the right way, is yeah. I've been thinking that burger a lot. I make it, I make it at Smorgasburg, and I make it a different event. around the world. Oh man. Well, we'll definitely run into each other. I love going over there. That's a, that's a good afternoon. Excellent. Yeah. Thanks for spending the time. I really appreciate it. It's great. Great to talking to you. Thanks, man. Yeah. And we got through the interview. Look at that. It all held up. All right, George. Thanks. Take care yourself. Oh, thanks. Good talking to you. Good

media. All right, likewise. Right. All right, everybody, that's the big show. Happy to check in with you from the road out here in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania. I'll be back shortly. Next week, we're going to talk to some crazy guys who are involved in the whiskey business and also get some comedy involved as well.

We've got a couple big guests coming up in the next couple of weeks. I won't tease you with them now. There's some from the comedy world, some from the food world. Thank you so much for listening. Make sure you like and subscribe and tell your friends and keep the comments coming. Tell me what you like to hear and we'll keep the conversation going. And until next time, enjoy your life.