Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 93 - Maeve Higgins

Episode Date: February 22, 2022

This week the very funny and insightful Maeve Higgins has a new book, 'Tell Everyone On This Train I Love Them' and a new friend - me!  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Hey, it's time for Breaking Bread with Papa. Hey, don't you know? Hey, it's also a show. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I'm Tom Papa. Thank you so much for being here on this glorious, glorious day. I'm recording this on a Sunday night, but what I'm presenting is a interview and interview that I did with the great Maeve Higgins.

She's so wonderful, hilarious comedian and writer of Irish Heritage. And she is just a delight. You're going to love this interview. We had such a great time together. And I quickly decided I'm going to make her my friend. And you'll see why. I'd like to thank the good people at Ritual Multivitamins. Ritual Multivitamins.

Thank you so much for sponsoring today's show. They are delivered to your door. month specially formulated to help fill the gaps in your diet. Get key nutrients without the BS. Ritual is offering my listeners 10% off your first three months. Visit ritual.com slash papa p-a-pa to start your ritual today. Great multivitamin. I'll talk a little bit more about it later in the show. A good company. Ritual multivitamins. Thanks for coming on board breaking bread. As I said, it is Sunday night. I have a glass of wine in my hand. I am just wrapping up a giant dinner that I made for my family. You know, I was wandering around. I had shows last night and the night before, Kira Soltanovich and I were cranking out great shows in Eugene, Oregon and Thousand Oaks, California. a lot of early morning travel, a lot of hustle and bustle, great shows, great crowds,

the tour has just been amazing. Kira is just stupendous, but, you know, it's an energy dump. By the time you roll around on Sunday, you're pretty spent, and I kind of wander around a little bit like Mr. Magoo, wondering, what am I going to do? What am I read the paper? Do I hang out? Do I work out? What do I do?

Do I play with the dogs? The greatest solve. is no, it's Sunday. This is the day that I cook. I cook for my family and I go to the market and I get my stuff. I get my canned tomatoes. I get my celery and my carrots and some baby arugula and some guda cheese and a nice bottle of wine and come back and get into the process of making everybody's Sunday dinner. That's just the way it's got to be. Forget all the questions.

Forget all the figuring stuff out. That is what makes me happy. Get in there, start chopping, put on some music, hold off on the wine until I know that the meal is past the point of being able to be knocked off course by me having an early buzz. Once it's into the safety zone, pop open the bottle, call everybody around, start serving it up. And the good thing is I usually hit that at around four or five o'clock. People are sitting down no later than 5.30. And you have this

big wonderful meal. You open up the wine. You open up conversation. It's all great. Check in with everybody before the beginning of the week. And it's all over by seven. And then you have the rest of your night to go about your business and get your life in order before the week kicks off. And I realized my week has to kick off with Maeve Higgins. We sat down, had this great conversation. I love her so much. I mean, I've literally just met her. She did my radio show and then was great enough to do my podcast. She has a new book out called Tell Everyone on this train. I love them. It's so good. A collection of essays. She has this great way of giving a refreshing take on America and on human nature.

She's an outsider to America in some way. She lives here, but she comes from Ireland. So she gives that nice perspective of somebody who's not in the house, but is close enough that you call them family. and that is one slice of it. And I know like when you read press about her and stuff, that's always what they say. And I'm, you know, I'm sure she's very proud of it as well. But for me, it's just great to see someone who's such a great writer and such a funny comedian and such a funny voice, diving into human nature.

That, to me, is her real talent. And sitting down with her, you. you'll see from this conversation, she's just great. It all just, everything that she puts in her writing just comes out naturally when you talk to her. And any interview that starts off talking about Irish soda bread, come on. How do you not fall in love with that person? She starred in a movie called Extraordinary. She's just a multi-talented person.

We talked about everything except rats. She's obsessed with rats in New York since the pandemic. outdoor dining. There's been a, the rats are having a moment. And she is, is a good writer and a, a good journalist would do. She's kept her eye out. And I really wanted to get into the rats and we didn't have a chance to do it. So we're going to do it when, uh, when she returns. And she will return because she's been harassing me. She's not, she's, she's definitely a little aggressive. She started to catch wind that people have gotten bread on this podcast. And she did not receive. Eve bread, but she was in New York and I was in L.A. She didn't seem to accept that explanation.

And she wants me to sit down with her and feed her, which I have to say would is on my list of top things to do this year. She's so great. You're going to love her. You're going to love this conversation. Please welcome the great Maeve Higgins. Hi, Maeve. Hi, Tom. Welcome to Breaking bread. Thanks for having me. So how long have you been baking bread? I think I got the wrong impression of this show. I told you I listened to the Jim Gaffigan episodes. You know, I really, really love him. And like, you brought him donuts in that. So I thought like,

oh my God, like Tom sends us food and, and then we eat it together. But well, he doesn't send you food. He waits to see who comes to him. And then if someone makes the effort to visit, then he showers you with bread and donuts and Irish soda bread. You make that? Yes. You know, my grandmother always said it was the best way to clean under your nails is to make soda bread. He's right.

I literally, I literally, I always have stuff under my nails and flour on my sweaters. And yeah, it's, yeah, it's like you learned how to be cute from like a 1990s rom-com, you know, where the woman is always a baker. Like you always just have a little bit of flour on your cheek.

Exactly. Yeah, I feel like, I feel like if I was really cool, I would have pants that just was splattered with paint, you know, it's just like that, the painter,

he never even changes his pants. Yeah, he's too creative. Yeah, this is like the lesser version of that. It's like, oh, there's some white stuff on you. That's flower. So do you smell so nice all the time? My sister's a baker and she just always smells lovely, kind of like cardamom and, oh.

Yeah. Yeah, the house, I don't know how I smell. It's, it's good. That's up for debate. But the, but the house smells really well, really good. It's always has that, that, yeah, fresh baked bread like at least two times a week. Oh, heaven. I mean, if you're not sure how you smell, I would say your family did ask me to bring this up.

Like you could, you could check in around that. Check in like. Yeah, you could ask people. How do I smell? Like, why are you making that base? I don't find that people that. I don't find the people that honest when you ask those questions. Like I literally, I literally, I'm probably 10 pounds heavier than I was in November.

Huge. And I'll ask. You're trying to get up a bit more? And I'm trying to bulk up. And I think I might have, I think, you know, you, you, you make these increases and then you plateau. Yeah. And then another increase and you plateau until it's all over. And, and I'll literally ask my family, do I look, do I look chubby?

And nobody says yes. Nobody says, maybe you could lose a couple. They just all just, no, you lose the same. I don't know if they don't care or if they are just. I think people just have the people that just kind, try and be kind and they don't want to hurt your feelings. Yeah. I mean, also, like, you know, when you live with somebody, you kind of lose track of like what they look like or smell like. Like all your kind of bodies are just like the same big body or something.

Because I remember my mom, someone was like, oh, you're married to Dave, you know, and he's one of like nine kids or whatever. Which one is he? Does he have a mustache? And my mother was like, I don't know. Oh my God. She's been married Tim for 30 years and she couldn't remember if he had a mustache or not. Yeah. They might not be able to see you.

And also like 10. Yeah. That's just nothing. You know. 10. Yeah. But, you know, it's 10 more than I just keep climbing. It's okay.

I'll be all right. Oh, I'm not worried about you. I mean, I'm of the generation that just thinks like being quite fat is really good. And being chubby is fine. but you should really try and get a bit better. Like, okay, fine, but you're not really committing to the bit there.

In the olden days at some point, you probably know better than I. It showed wealth. It showed that you were, the chubbier you were, the better off you were. It was, so then it was deemed sexier.

But I don't think the wealth connection is part of this new movement. You mean, So like now like body positivity and like fat positivity. What I what I subscribe to myself is neutrality, which is obviously really hard to be neutral about anything because I have so many opinions about everything. Yes. But I think people who are like body positive who are like, you need to love your body, you know, fat thin, however it is.

I think they're like I don't think it's to do with being a sign of being wealthy. No. No. Now I feel like thinness is about wealthy. The thinness is equated to wealth more than fatnesses. Yeah, you have so much money that you don't even care about eating. Yeah, you just, you forget, you forget to eat. Does that ever happen?

Yeah, because you're too, you're like, oh, I was just counting my Bitcoin or whatever. Right. I'm just so, I didn't know what to do with all of my cocaine. And so, and I lost track of the time. I didn't know what to do with all of my cocaine. What have you eaten? today. So I would say last night I was out celebrating.

And so, congratulations. Was this, were you celebrating? Sorry to interrupt, but I'm going to. Oh, yeah.

Were you celebrating that because your book came out? Was that the celebration? Or is it just because it was. It was my book launch. And yeah, and it was lovely. So I actually only had two drinks, but I guess sometimes they really hit me.

Other times that does nothing, you know. Yeah. But I woke up pretty homeover. So I went down to. to my local coffee shop and I got a cinnamon roll. That's a real treat for me. Well, you deserve it.

You got a book come out. Heavy. Right? And when you walk in there, you think, I deserve this. I'm getting this cinnamon treat. Yeah,

I used to do a joke before about how, like, I deserve it would turn into, like a self-hating thing. Like, I deserve it. You know, like,

I'd be, I'd start on like a family pack of M&Ms. I'd be like, I deserve this. And by the end of it, I'd be crying, be like, yeah,

that's right, bitch, you do deserve it. you, it's all you deserve. I don't feel that way about food anymore. I feel very upbeat about it on my body too. And so, yeah, I absolutely, I needed like sugar this morning and I needed comfort this morning.

So I had this, like, beautiful cinnamon roll with coffee and it really made me feel a lot better. That's good. What were you drinking last night? What did you drink? I had a, a ngroni is my drink. I love a ngroni. and it was a good one actually. I went to like an Italian place near the near the event and then had a

groni and then had pasta with a glass of red wine. It was just some kind of cabernice of young. That's why you're hung over. That's why you're hung over. Mixing is what they taught us to do. Yeah. And also a lot of sugar. You had all your pasta and all your wine.

Yeah. No, I did a really good job. Yeah. And then you wake up and your eyes open and you think I need more sugar. I'm so happy on this roller coaster though I have to say I'm hoping to like tonight my friends are making dinner and it just feels so exciting Tom because like I've really missed that like going out and and like purposefully like having a good time and now Omicron is still very much in New York but it's a it's lifting a little bit so like yeah I'm taking oh my God I'm do you remember in

Pride and Prejudice one of the um I think it's like one of the aunts tells one of her nieces like, take every opportunity to enjoy yourself. And like, I feel like I'm doing that like any opportunity. Right. You have to. Being so greedy for fun. You mentioned pride and prejudice in your book also. And it's my sister's favorite book of all time.

And I read it for the first time pretty recently. And I didn't want to say it to her. And I'm a little hesitant to say it to you. I was like, yeah, okay. She's with me now, actually. Come in. No. Come through.

Here she is. You piece of shit. Hey, brother. You didn't like it. Wow. She's tough. She's smoking now. She does.

She smokes. She's just a real puff, puff past the Jane Austen book. Is it one of your favorite books? It's not actually. but I do I do really enjoy it and I get a kick out of it and I think she's so

clever and like in that way that like comedians that I like do she really notices the tiny things and she really like blows them up and she sees the significance in very small moments and so I think she's a yeah a fabulous writer I it's just not

one of my favorite books but I do I do love it and I also love like there's a BBC adaptation that's a six hour long that like me and all my sisters watched when we were like 14 but did us untold damage i'm sure because we expected like because basically it's like a horrible guy who's really mean and then he comes around so right um after torturing her yeah it's not like the healthiest set up but as a kind of examination of like what life was like then yeah can't be B's right. Your writing is so good and allow me to to embarrass you and compliment you right to your face but you but you're really you're really really good Maeve and I literally laughed out

loud at just the one image of in the acting essay about how when I'm going to paraphrase it but when you lean in when you when you lean in close to someone's face when you're telling them what is when they're asking you if you're an actor? Yeah, I actually don't know. You remember that? I'm so sorry. Oh, shit. It's so good.

It was so funny of like, it was kind of like, are you starring in this film and you kind of lean in? Oh, I know what you mean. Close to their. Because like I'm in one film like in my life, right? And so,

and it just so happens that like my friends wrote it and it was with me and mine. So people, when I do say like, oh, I'm actually like in a movie. You know, I actually do act often, especially like people in the industry. You know, they're like, oh, like, do you have a line? You know, like they just consume that it's like small or whatever.

And that's when I like to get really close so they can feel my breath. I say, oh, I'm the lead. Right. I'm actually the lead. When I lean in close to your face so you can feel my breath. And it's like that is kind of, you know, I mean. Yes. is kind of how I feel about that because it's such a strange situation to never be in

anything and then suddenly be the lead in a feature. Yeah. Like it's so silly. It's such a silly thing to happen. It's so great. And just that thing of, yes. But it is interesting when you search you on the internet, it is Irish actor. It's like the lead thing in the Google verse.

That's funny. just kind of, yeah, because what do you consider yourself? Do you consider yourself more a writer? A writer. I mean, like if I look at what I actually get paid to do, which is, I mean, how do you even start defining yourself? I think, you know, I mean, obviously, lover and, you know, sex symbol. Sex symbol. Influencer. You know. But like, yeah, I think if I look at what I get paid. for and like my text is it's like a writer but whatever i mean you just can't control the internet also and i don't mean like where people might like gossip about you or like they might say things about about you as

like a well-known person tom yeah like with me it's just like oh a child did my wikipedia page like in 2006 so i can't really control that well you know you can go in and change things on Wikipedia yourself if you want if you yeah sometimes my agent is like maybe you just need to like put together all your stuff stuff in one place and so people understand that like, you know, and I'm just, all that idea is so exhausting to me. Yeah. I know. Yeah. Hire that that same child that did it. They're probably in high school now. Yeah. To go in and do it. I should do that. Yeah. And it's also like, I mean, people don't really, I guess like, I don't really believe what I read on the internet about other people. So if I, you know, but yeah, I mean, I did act in one movie. So I,

am an actor in that way. Mm-hmm. You are. You're giving me an existential crisis now, Tom. Well, that's good. This is what good hangovers are made of. That's just what I need. Why be hungover unless you're going to really take at least a moment to reevaluate who you are

and what you've done. Yeah. Yeah. You deserve it. Anyway. Oh, God. You've, your essays are so good. And there's, I naturally love the.

the quiet optimism of your writing. Like you definitely tackle real, you know, real subjects, especially in your, in looking at America and trying to figure out, you know, just kind of as a little bit of an outsider, like, hey guys, let me give you a little perspective of what you might be going through. And, and, you know, you do challenge.

Yeah, they love that. But they love it from you because there's a sense of humor, and there's an optimism. There really is a hopefulness. And do you live your life that way? Yeah, I mean, I think, and I would say this is true of like my stand-up. I would say it's true of your stand-up too. It's like, yes, acknowledging things that are hard or like stupid or are pointless.

Good. Like do all of that. But first of all, do it with some levity and some humanity. which include humanity innately includes humor and levity. And if you leave that out, you're not actually being truthful. And second of all, it's very like luxurious to be nihilistic, you know? Like it's very easy and it's very privileged to kind of say, well, there's nothing we can do now. Because if you have to do something about it, and I'm talking here about migration, climate,

like huge things, and you will do something about it. So by kind of saying, oh, too bad. Looks like we're all going to burn up. First of all, you're probably not the one who's going to burn up at least first. And second of all, you haven't been trying. Like, and you think you don't have to try. So hopelessness and nihilism are, I think, lazy and boring, like from an entertainment in point of view. And also they're not, um, they're not fair like in there, because you haven't

tried often because I have done, you know, like I don't mean to just be like speaking the abstract. I suppose what I mean is say on, um, the climate catastrophe. Like we did a, I did a podcast with Mary Robinson about climate justice and we just talked to different women. It was all a feminist podcast and we talked to different women who are, um, you know, working like to fight against like a whole variety of like climate disasters, like slow moving and fast. And like those women truly like none of them were like downbeat and self serious. All of them were action taking.

Hopeful is a bit of a funny word. But like they were optimistic because that they had dedicated their lives. So they obviously believed that something better was possible. And I think like with your style of comedy, I would say like Jim Gaffigant, I don't mean to like keep talking about Jim Gaff, but like that style of comedy, right, that's like not dark and like hopeless.

That's actually, it's not cynical. Like that's actually difficult. But the funny thing is you get a lot more praise. And this goes for comedy. This definitely goes for writing. You get a lot more praise if you are, you know, you know, these words like, unrelenting.

Like, you know, I really, you know, wow, he really makes you face things. Edgy. Edgy and like pulls no punches. It's like, I'm sorry. Can you, would you mind pulling a few? This is really hard already. Right. No, it's true.

Jim and I talk about that often that. that those those kind of acts get the headlines they get the they get the because it's an easy thing to write about it's an easy thing to write of like this is you know he's really showing us and it's like it actually is you're right it is more difficult and I think more valuable ultimately to go the other way yeah I was just thinking there like about um there's this There's this, he's like a kind of a funny poet, like a Yossi Marraeus, his name is he lives in LA actually. And years ago, he started this is a hashtag called Undocujoy. And it was, and he's undocumented and he's an advocate for undocumented people's rights to a path to citizenship. And his really big

point and one that still stands today is, yeah, undocumented people have a real struggle. Like, it's, I think it's really brutal how this country and immigration system treats them. And there's 11 million undocumented people. But he was like, yeah, but we also like fall in love and we also have parties and we also like learn and love. You know, like, right. There's so much more to his life and to every undocumented person's life than just like this kind of grinding story of like oppression.

And it's like not fair to reduce people to, you know, to just like a sadness or, um, it's true. Yeah, without without that you, you're right. You hear undocumented. It's just this block of people that are avoiding the DMV and shuttling off in the shadows. Right. And that then makes them sound like victims. And I think it's not too far a leap to say, um, with comedy, if you are talking about, you know, being the kind of, um, the underdog or, you know, you know, you should take care with that because there's people listening to you. And this goes for body stuff.

This goes for political power, anything. You should take care with how you present because you don't want to say like, but I'm powerless. You know, you can. And I guess if you feel that way, but if you educate yourself and if you listen to the right people. Right. You know, that's a, that's a huge thing.

I have two daughters. And that, that's the thing. I keep trying to eke into the conversations is, yes, there's obstacles. Yes, there's struggles. There's all of these things, but you're not a victim. Don't there's the, there seems to be this tendency now to just go into victimhood. And that's not the way you should digest this information and use it for your life. You've, you're just giving up at that point. You really have to kind of own the pain and then go out there and, and use it. it, use it, know what you're up against, but now, okay, now how are we going to go forward with it? Yeah, yeah. And I can see how, like, if I was, you know, a teenager now, knowing what I know about like the kind of, you know, because I studied sociology, it's like, okay, there are systemic, you know, things at work against me. And it is extra hard if you are black in this country. It's extra hard if you're a trans woman in this country, in very real ways.

right? Yeah. Like harder to get, depending on what zip code you live in, you'll have a shorter life than somebody who lives in a different zip. So there's real victimization, there's real oppression. But I suppose it's the stories that we tell.

I mean, that's the only skill I have is like storytelling. Is to say, like as you said, yeah, understand that. Like understand what you're facing. Understand what you're up against.

Yeah. And then I think, also a big part of it is knowing you're not alone. So like you learn these things from people who are in your community. You know, be that women, be that, gave you will be that, you know, white men who are very, you know, having. And then you can, you know, then you can kind of own your power as well, as well as all the things that you're up against. Right. And it's, it is a disservice to yourself to think you're powerless. Yeah. I mean, one thing I always say to Americans is you're, you're an American citizen. That's huge. That's already like a golden ticket right there. Does it really help?

I mean, it's a very powerful passport. People hate when I say that to them. But it is a powerful passport. Like you're like a member of like the world's richest country. I remember for a while people were saying us that we should try and get. Passports. We should try and whatever dual citizenship you could get. Like, I should get an Italian one. Yeah. Because they'll be nicer to you when you're traveling, traveling around. Traveling around. This was like during the like right after like 9-11 and and. Oh my God. Yeah. Freedom fries era. Yeah. And like as if as if any American could take a passport and like get their grandmothers get the Italian version and they wouldn't know you were American immediately. like as soon as you walk in the door. Yeah.

You could pass for Italian. I mean, you'd have to definitely like to do a kind of outfit, like a kind of a prank show style. Scarf. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, that would be, if you get an Italian passport, you then have an EU passport and then you could just. Right. The European legend. That would be pretty good. Wouldn't it? Yeah.

I've never. been to Ireland. Get off this Zoom. I'm so sorry. What am I doing? I know I should have told you before. You agreed to do this. Okay.

In New York, where I am right now, I'm closer to Ireland than I am to L.A. It's so close. Yes. We have five and a half hour. Spiritually or mileage? Because there's some great Irish bars in New York. Right. Exactly.

And yeah, no, like flying there takes less time than it does take to fly to L.A. But I mean, I understand it's like a different nation and a different time zone. I mean, you're still a different. I get very nervous. I get very nervous going through customs. Oh, well, wait, so you never did comedy, but you did comedy in England, right? You didn't do comedy in the UK? No, I haven't.

Oh. I haven't done in the UK. I've only done Amsterdam and the Middle East, Beirut and. Dubai. You did. Oh my God. Yeah. I mean,

I suppose why would you though? Like I want to. I've always desperately wanted to. But it just never, yeah. I'm going to. Are you barred from international travel? I can't talk about that. Does a side in diamond smuggling or something?

I can't. I can't really say. Do you go back often or do you not go back? I mean, no, I do go back. I spent a large part of the pandemic there. I mean, I actually did write this in the book, which was I was in San Antonio and Texas when it started, like the pandemic started in early March. And I felt so, like, unsafe. It was a DHS, the Department of Homeland Security event that I was at.

I was reporting on. Right. And I felt like they were being so reckless and insane at this huge, like. Expo thing. So I was like, oh, this is not going to be good. Like, I don't want to be in this country with these guys in charge. You know, it's still under Trump, but you know, it was just, and it did turn out very bad here. Yeah. So, yeah, I fled. I mean, much and all as I love being here and I love, you know, I'm a New Yorker, like New Yorker nowhere. The minute there was trouble, I was like, yikes. And I thought, it was like almost St. Patrick's Day too. Remember it was like March 17.

I mean, not that any sane person would be thinking about that, but I was like, it felt like there was like a shamrock in the sky, like a bat light of a shamrock in the sky. I was like calling me back home. Get out of here. So yeah, I was like on one of the first flights. In fact, it was at that time when like some people still didn't think there was going to be a pandemic. And so like me and my friend were so scared and we were like wearing like gloves and masks and everything on the plane. and then like all these really drunk Irish guys were on the plane. They had all been to a boxing match in like Madison Square Garden.

And they were so drunk getting on the plane. And they were like, what are you doing? Like, you know, the way drunk people are like a bit like toddlers. I'm so honest. And you know, what are you doing? And I said, oh, like there's a disease, you know, in the air or whatever. I go out, get out of here. Jesus Christ.

Ah, you're mad. Were you, uh, when you were packing up? Was it like, did you feel like I'm fleeing and looking at your stuff like, I'll take the important things? Or did you feel like, oh, I'll be back in a month? Oh, I thought I would be back. I mean, that's a thing. So I left just my apartment and everything the way it was. And then the months tick by.

And I was like, well, I can't pay rent. I'm like not even working. So then I got, I call this like packing, moving organization. Why did I say a moving organization? Because you're so fancy. You write for the New York Times. Look, this is, you live in a different world than the rest of us. The gray lady would say,

please summon a moving organization. I'm about to depart. Take it to the, take it to the boat. But yeah, and so I call them, I was like, this is an unusual request, but like, I'm not home, but I need you to go and pack up my apartments. And they were like, hey lady, like, we're doing this, you know, 22 hours a day. Because I guess so many people, you know, had thought, oh, it's going to. So. Right, right. And I guess my stuff was in storage. Then it was like stuck on a boat somewhere.

So yeah, I just had a suitcase until I still just have two suitcases. Wow. Since March of 2020, because then I sent my things back. to Ireland, but I guess they got like lost. They didn't get lost, but they got like held up on the water because there was all those like shipping delays. Right. And then I went back home.

This is just like the inside I admit of my. But anyway, I went back home and the stuff had all finally arrived. It was the most busted up hilarious. No. Like my poor dad, he put it all in the shed and he was like, um, was this what your bookshelf looked like before love? And I said, these shards of broken wood. no, that's not what my bookshelf looked like before.

Oh, my God. So then me and my dad had this whole day where we like went to the dump. Is there a good dump near you? No, you know, which I grew up in New Jersey and we had a great dump. It was like our, oh, so fun. The whole place was a dump. Out here, there's no dump. I have to say, we had a brilliant day because like he has a big truck thing because he's in

construction. And so we had to put everything like broken electrical at one place and then everything recyclable. And it did feel like we were in like a child's cartoon because like everything out there is so big. And we were like going around from place to place. And it felt good to finally like have my stuff back after two years. Yeah. Even though it was all broken. It's all demolished. Here's my question that's kind of even more inside. What did they do with the stuff in the refrigerator? Um, I had, I had, uh, said to my cousins, go and take out all my food. I have one cousin that lives here. And so he went and he had cleared out.

But that's a very good question. Yeah. That's why I just pictured things growing. I know. And like smelling them. Actually, that's still good. Hey. Like that muscle milk or whatever.

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I'm always trying to create some kind of a balance, trying to eat the right things, trying to exercise, trying to be a little decadent at times and then dial it back. And it's nice when you have somebody who actually gives you a little guidance and a great product. You get key nutrients without the BS. Ritual is offering my listeners 10% off your first three months. Visit ritual.com slash Papa to start your ritual today. Vegan certified, non-GMO, gluten and allergy free. These people really care about the product that they're making. Nine nutrients to help fill the gaps in your diet.

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Oh, I have like an office and I write in the office and then I try and do set hours and everything, you know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. The, that is the biggest thing is the solitude. It really is such a, I mean, that's the, that's it. It's really just trying to fortify yourself from interruption. That is the hardest thing. When I, when I, my schedule was to wake up in the morning, get my coffee and going to the office and stay there till noon.

And that was a, that was my ritual and it was great. And it was, you know, whether it was productive or not, depended on the day, of course. But and then once I started this radio show and it interrupted my morning and then things are happening afternoon and then people are coming home later, it's like, it's chaos. It's that is the biggest struggle for writing. 100%. Yeah. I mean, I'm obsessed with this stuff and like I always read about people's rituals and like I

definitely think being a parent makes it hard and also being like just like alive today when we just have to earn money. And like you don't really earn the money from writing. You earn it from like tons of other things. Yeah. So trying to prioritize it. Like, uh,

Maeve Vinci, who was like an Irish writer. Um, she used to get up at 5 a.m. make coffee right for two hours, you know, so then at 7 a.m. like the kind of house would wake up or whatever.

Roaldal used to tie himself to his chair. He had a shed in his garden and he would physically tie himself to his chair. He would. Yeah. And I mean, then there's like, so I'm not as kind of, you know, tough on myself as I used to be. But I do, I still do set a timer for 45 minutes and I turn everything off and I listen to loud music. Those are the ways that I get it done. But yeah, you kind of do have to be. With lyrics or with no lyrics? No lyrics. Yeah. The odd time, like during my last book, I listened to the same Frank Ocean. album again and again and again, thousands of times probably. So I guess the lyrics kind of faded away. Yeah. But yeah, there's no quick way around it. Like if I was doing a radio show every day, yeah, there's there's not really, it's like stage time. There's no substitute for it. You know,

you need to be alone. But I think word counts help, right? And setting a timer helps. Yeah. Yeah, knowing, having a deadline, knowing that. Yeah. Someone somewhere is waiting for something from you. Yeah. That's a big. That's a big. Have you ever seen that book called Daily Rituals? No.

It's all, it's just a whole book about this. It's by each writer, some painters, but mostly writers. And they just. A painter. Each, and each one's ritual. And, you know, some of them were, some of them were, you know, decadent late at night where they would drink and have their friends. And then they would work from like midnight till three.

but everybody had, but it was just that routine of doing whatever way they carved it out in their day. That was the most important thing. And mine right now is kind of free form and it's a struggle. Yeah, I'd say so. I mean, then I think it's also the more in your head you get about it, the worse it gets to. So like, if you realistically can't, I'm just like giving advice. It's good. But I'd be like, if you really, you know, like, you know what your life is at the moment.

So like if you really can't do three hours writing a day, you can't. So beating yourself up about that is just going to take up even more energy. So I think, you know, setting aside a 30 minute block here or a 30 minute block there. And be that like 250 words each time, then at least you may, you've done something. Because I do think, you know, we're very sensitive little creatures. It's true. And so, you know, it's getting the right balance of like our circumstances, but then also not being so absolute like black and white about it, you know, and not being too hard if something isn't happening. I mean, there is that lovely school of thought too that's like, oh, even if you're not like physically writing, you know, your brain is always like ticking away.

You take comfort in that sometimes. Yeah, that's a good, that's a good rationalization for being lazy. There was his, oh, what was his name? The great Israeli writer. I forget his name. And his whole thing was that. Edgar Caress? No, not.

And his thing was that writers are shopkeepers. And that it's your job just to open up the shop. Amos Oz. Oh. Amos. And it's our job. He said, now I'll read it to you. I have it in my phone just because I like it.

Great. Now I think of my work is that of a shopkeeper. It is my job to open up in the morning, sit and wait for customers. If I get some, it's a blessed morning. If not, well, I'm still doing my job. So the guilt has gone and I try to stick to my shopkeeper's routine. Wait, so he also has a shop. Oh my God, Maeve, no.

Mave. What's his shop? What does he sell in there? How can he write when he's, how can he write when he's? Of course he's not able to write. Their customers are demanding all the time. Does he wrap things as gifts?

Because that takes a lot of time. Yeah. I have that stuff in my phone too. Like, you know, kind of like different. And it's useful because it is a solitary kind of profession. So it's good to hear about what others did and what,

works for them and, you know, and also to remember it's such a good feeling when you have written something, you know. Yes, I know. It's the best. You finally like make sense. Even if it's just like a piece of crap, like a few, like a funny thing for the internet or something, it just feels so good to have it done. Now what about the feeling of getting up and doing a set?

Not for me. Mm-hmm. Don't like it. Mm-hmm. It doesn't give you the same kind of feeling. No, it doesn't anymore. I mean, for me, it used to be like a compulsion, you know, where I just was, no matter what happens, I got to get up there tonight. I got to get, you know. Yep, got to do a set.

And do my set, good or bad, you know, and it just faded for me. I just don't have that anymore. And I don't know. I'm not worried about it. But I also, and it was also the pandemic, obviously, because I didn't do stand up for like these past two years. Did that coincide? Was it, is that when you? stop? No, I was trying to stop doing comedy for like 10 years before I finally stopped. Yeah, no, I couldn't get rid of it. Very much like being in a pretty bad relationship, not abusive really, but like just like a crummy one that like prevents you from finding love. There is that thing. And like I know the way you work, you work, you care about it and you put all of this like your intellect and and spirit into like the craft of,

you know, you're set and like, and you can see that. You can tell a million miles away from someone like me who's like, okay, this is what I just do, I guess. Like,

so I better just keep doing it. Right. You know, it's a hard thing to get out of. It's very, yeah, people don't. People,

I really ran into someone who I thought had left 15 years. ago. And she was hosting a show and I was like, well, wait, what did you say to her? This is the potential to be a really hurtful conversation. He said, hey, so good to see you. I thought you were gone. No, I didn't say anything. But there is that thing like you almost I almost felt like, yeah, it's like you, you're not allowed to really leave. Like even you saying that you're out, I don't truly believe you won't be back on stage at some point. I know. But I just have to draw a line under it.

Do you feel better? I do host shows. Yeah, it feels it feels really good. Like if I had a set, I also think it's harder to write on days that I have a set because there's just that little edge of I got to go, I got to go. And, you know,

I host my show like that we talked about before, um, with Joe and a parent. and hosting is totally fine because like you don't you don't need to do a set like you just chat and it's easy and the people do the hard work like the comics get up and do the hard work

and you still get to like you know tell your private life to strangers which for some reason we think is very important everyone needs to know yeah yeah no actually I do think that I do think that's a very worthwhile thing to do but not a set no

like if I had to try and think of one now I'd be at a real loss, I think. I'd probably just start talking about, like, you know, humankind's right to migrate or something and really just for everybody to. No, nihilism is a choice, you know, like, every one of those guys. Start going into the, just do a reading from your chapter on statues. Confederate statues.

Oh, my God. Yeah, guys, here's my take on Confederate statues, okay? Hey, see, guys, you're not paying attention. no phones well you know they're so polite here in brooklyn the audience is like the sad thing is they'd probably like give me a chance you know and I don't want that either like I want to do like if I was going to do stand-up it would have to be like silly goofy really good you know so if you're not in the right frame of mind I don't think you know I should be like inflicting

myself on people either like I am so I so treasure like these young comics like Meg Stalt or Luke Mona's like a million of them, Carolina like greenage, like just who are goofy and silly at the moment. It's just such a treat. It's such a pleasure. Yeah, it's a relief, exactly.

A relief. Just having some fun. Yeah, I know. Yeah. I always gravitate towards those people also. Yeah. You like both of them, but the silly is always.

That's why I loved about George Carlin was that he would be like really railing against something really intensely. and then all of a sudden you'd act like a crab walking across the cat. This is how it crab walks. Yeah. I like that combo. I like that combo too.

Yeah, totally. And it's the surprise element of it too from both sides because suddenly you're like, holy shit. Like I'm really thinking about something here. And then you're like, you know, cracking off. Yeah. It's such a service, isn't it? For people who are good at it to do that.

Yeah. No, it really is. Yeah. You can't go far that guy. George Island. Yeah. You're really good on TikTok. Right.

His dances are amazing. Oh my God. How long does we spend editing them? What's your favorite food? Honestly, because cinnamon rolls are really up there because I just had one. Yeah. But what do you think of scones? Approve.

Me too. I would say like they certainly are, they make me so like sleepy. You know, like I can feel that they're not exactly like, um, it. Remember what was that thing? They were called like power foods or something. Remember for a while there people were like, oh, blueberries are power. Right. Scones are the opposite of like a power food, like a superfood.

Right. Superfood, that's right. Yeah, they're just like a big dough like snooze button for me. And sneaky because they disguises something that wouldn't really have that much impact on you. Well, not the way I eat them because I eat scones with butter, raspberry jam and cream. So like they look fairly decadent and, you know, you know, fairly. Yeah. There's no disguising, you know.

This isn't the Starbucks rock hard scone in a bag. No. My mom makes amazing scones. Really? And like I guess Americans would call them biscuits, like, but they're like sweeter biscuits. And she makes me and I don't like, she put sultanas in her scones, but I don't like sultanas. She always makes like three without sultanus for me. But like as you know, three is quite a lot of scones. Like these are like, these are scones are the size of my fist. The three of them, like what even,

you know, that's like so much scone. That's a lot of scone. Yeah. Yeah. But I do. I love them. Do you make them? I do. I make a blueberry scone. Oh, lovely. Yeah. Yeah. So you don't put cream. You don't put like butter and cream on them. No. Yeah. No. Maybe these might be a little more, have a little more fat and cream in them already. Yeah. Than what your mom makes.

Oh, there's cream in your scones already. Like you put a little, the milk. Oh, milk. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Did your mom, was your mom a good baker? Is she still a good baker?

Yeah. I mean, she definitely lost her touch because she just, you know, kept having children and got so tired. So like, my sister took up the mantle and my sister's a food writer. now in Ireland, Lily. And she writes for the Irish Times and she goes on TV there as a TV cook. And she is unbelievable. Now, I would say she's more into cooking than baking.

Although every year for my birthday, when I'm home, she makes like a peanut butter and chocolate cake that's really divine. Oh, boy. And she does this, do you like Nigella Lawson? Yes. Like her recipes? Yeah, I think she's a really good recipe writer. Really good.

as well as, you know, like just this like stunning creature. Right. But she has a recipe for like chocolate ganache that's foolproof, you know, as long as you don't like heat the cream too much, I guess. Right. That just makes a chocolate cake seem so like, it levels it up so much. Oh, boy. Because it's like a shining crown on cake.

Oh, nice. So yeah, a peanut butter cake with chocolate ganache. that's like a matchup of like my sister Lily's recipes and Nigella Lawsons. That's going to be my death row meal. So you're more sweet than savory? Yeah, I mean, I do like a savory breakfast actually, even going against what I have just been saying. But I do like, you know, omelette with kimchi or something for my breakfast. Omelet with kimchi. I've never had an omelet with kimchi.

Oh, it's great. Yeah. Yeah, I think so. It really is like a strong start to your morning. You know, it's like, okay, I'm going to do this, you know. The anti-scon. In one corner, we got a school. The corner of kimchi.

Ding, ding, ding. What's your top breakfast? Um, I, I like a nice egg sandwich on sourdough. Oh, lovely. Sourdough toast, but like with a. some arugula on it and maybe some Dijon mustard and lovely. That's, yeah, that's, that's a really good one. I've been, I've been, I've been preaching about this gentleman's breakfast,

which is this English, you take sour to toast and you take anchovies and garlic the night before in soft butter and salt and, and you mix it all together and you, and then you put it into the refrigerator and let it harden. And then in the morning, you take out and you make it, a slice of sourdough toast and then you smother this concoction on top of it heaven heaven it's so good because you know i have anchovies i have a tin of anchovies there and i can't remember why i got them i think i was going to make a seizure dressing or something but i was like what was they doing with those but i could do that with them oh it's so good i'm no gentleman

let me tell you know you're a lady a lady's breakfast a lady's breakfast yeah and that is absolutely stinking Well, that's the thing. Yeah, you can't, you either have to have your friends eat it too or stay by yourself. Again, another advantage to being, another aid to being alone as a writer. Yeah, yeah. I absolutely love that idea. And it does, there's something very like 18th century about it as well, like, which I guess is why they call it that. It's just such like, for your constitution, sir.

Right. And the other wrinkle is to have some scrambled eggs on the side of it. Oh, yeah. I could see that. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, it's so good. It's raw garlic and raw garlic chopped up and chivis.

Yeah. And just put it in soft butter and mix it all together the night before and then just leave it in the refrigerator. Oh. Or even just with cheese would be lovely. I remember my brother fell for this. Like there was like a short lived, um, advertising campaign in Ireland when we were teenagers and it was like, take a cheese break or something.

And they were trying to introduce the idea that, you know, you kind of stop your day. Like I guess in the way we have coffee. Right. And have a handful of cheese. And like, you know, no, everyone was like, oh, shut up dairy, dairy council. Like, nobody's going to. But my brother took it, you know, mom, why don't we have a cheese break?

We didn't, we never had a cheese break today. I've heard cheese break. It's not a real thing that people do. It's kind of great. great though. I can see being suckered into that. I could yeah. In fact, now, because I'm such a, you know, I actually have a hunk of manchegos that I'm thinking about burning a hole in my fridge. So maybe I'll have a cheese break, you know. Yeah, why not? Just eat that. It's the best. And that would also put a stop to my sugar roller coaster that I'm on. Yeah, I know you got to get off at

some point. You have to just detach. You got to take it, take a man chigo stuff. Yeah, take it, take a knee. Take a knee, Maeve. Bring it in. Bring it in. Everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So how am I going to see you in New York if you're not, if you don't go to the clubs anymore? I mean, I'm happy to go as an audience member, you know, and obviously give devastating notes afterwards. or during or during oh that's what i wanted to say i i this show that i do in new york has come to papa live i've been doing for years and it was like as a little training ground a writing training ground for because i always love prairie home companion oh yeah yeah and then i ended up i ended up um as the head writer for the new prairie home companion with christiealy which you had an

amazing appearance. I did the first one in St. Paul. Yeah. Yeah. I did that first one. It was so brilliant. Yeah. You were so good on that. You were so good. And people can see it actually online. It's yeah. It's still living. But yeah. So that's what that's that's what that little show was. It's just like this little incubator to to like write comedy and sketch and that kind of a thing. It does all because of Prairie home. Yeah. Yeah. It does sound lovely. Well, I hope I get to see you in New York, aka my hometown. Oh, man. You know, I'm from New York also. And just because I'm out here temporarily, doesn't mean that you get to take over the town. It's my town. This town is not big enough for the two of us. You don't even have a bookcase anymore. That hurts. Two suitcases does not

constitute roots. Oh, can we tell you? talk about rats, by the way, before we leave? Can we talk about rats? Because I know you're obsessed with rats. I mean, it's all I can think about. Last night I did this. Well, let me let me just check, though, because I have to do a Negeen's show. You know, Nagin Farsad? Yes, I love Nagin. She loves me. Of course she does. Although that's not what she said, hmm, Tom Papa. Yeah, no, I don't think she would use the word love. Hmm, weird. Weird. Wait, I'm just checking. Yeah, I have to do that at 1.30. At 1.30 and that's and it's 131 now. Yeah. Okay. Oh, man. I'm really sorry. It's my fault because I was late. It's my fault. I should have asked about the rats. It should have been

my first question. No. It's it really obsessed people. I know. I know. It's a big deal. And I know all. Yeah. I live there and and but now that it's gone to this whole other level. I just. So do you know that? He's a comedy writer. Arnheiter, who's that I wrote about him because the rat came up his toilet. Oh, I heard about that. It's in Long Island. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so him and his son.

Yeah, so I talked to him. Did you read that book, Rats that was all about the rats in New York? Yeah. That was pretty good. And it's due an update because that's a pretty like, that was from, at least it's about 20 years ago. And since then there's been, you know, what we call a rat explosion in the city. All right. We're going to end it there.

say hi Nagine. Thank you so much for doing us. Congratulations on the book. I hope I see you in New York. All right. It'll be great. Thanks. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. All right. There it is. That is the great interview with the great Mave Higgins. I told you she's a delight. She's one of my new favorite people. Go get her book. Tell everyone on the train. I love them. It's so funny. It's really great. It's got great commentary and great sense of humor. Maeve Higgins, thank you so much for being here. Thank you to the people at ritual, multivitamins, for coming on board, and also a big thank you to all of you. You are the best. Our listeners are amazing. It was so nice being on tour over the last weekend, even just the last two shows and having people in Eugene, Oregon, and people in Thousand Oaks, California coming up and saying they love listening to the podcast, keep them coming, highlighting their

favorite guests. Gaffigan was a good one. Shafir was another one that people were mentioning. So it's always nice to know that the community is growing and more people are coming to the table every week. You guys are the best. I'll see you next time.