Breaking Bread with Tom Papa - Episode 97 - David Neuman

Episode Date: March 22, 2022

All our olive oil questions are answered when we are visited by David M. Neuman who literally wrote the book on olive oil - Extra Virgin Olive Oil - The Truth In Your Kitchen. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and Affiliates. Price and coverage match limited by state law. This episode is brought to you by an espresso. Hear that, that's your next obsession. Every coffee a new world. Every sip, a new taste. This is the new espresso. One touch, endless possibilities. Iced, flavored, long, short, because some days call for that espresso kick. And sometimes, a smooth, silky latte just wins. It's exceptional but effortless. Like actually effortless. Simply press, brew and explore. Nispresso, what else? Keep exploring at nespresso.com. It's time for breaking bread with Papa. Hey! Don't you know? Hey! It's a

sourdough. Hey, it's time for Breaking Bread with Papa. Hey, don't you know, it's also a show. Hey. Hey, everybody, welcome to another edition of Breaking Bread with Tom Papa. I'm Tom Papa. Thank you so much for being here. This is going to be a good one. You're going to enjoy this. You're going to like this. Sometimes I do these interviews and they're always fun. You always learn a little something and then other ones you kind of learn at a different level and it changes everything from the rest of time when you go into the kitchen. Does that make sense? If I was writing that in a book,

I would read it. I'd edit that down and make it more beautiful. But it's true. I spoke with David M. Newman about his new book, Extra Virgin Olive Oil, The Truth in Your Kitchen. and we take a deep dive. I know that's a trendy thing to say, deep dive, but we took a deep dive, had a great conversation about olive oil, and look, he wrote a whole book about it. He wrote 200 pages on olive oil, and it's one of those things. I'm telling you, you're going to listen to it, you're going to be surprised, you're going to learn some stuff, and it's going to change everything. It's so good. You're really going to enjoy it.

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Thank you to the good people at Policy Genius. So I've been cooking for a long time. I have been muddling along. I was not an expert in any way when I started. I always enjoyed it. I always enjoy getting into the kitchen and have. even when I was college, you know, poor, no money, sitting with my friends in our house. And I was always interested in trying to make stuff and do stuff.

This is kind of a side note, but I distinctly remember the two good things that I did when I was in college was, actually, I'll give you three. I'll give you three because I just did a, I just actually did a talk with my alma mater, with Ryder University. It was writer college back when I was a boy. And maybe that's why it's on my mind. But when I was in college, you know, you got no money. You got literally no money. And the three ways that I had workarounds, one was in the dorm. I went out with a girl whose father taught her how to make grilled cheese in your room. And for some reason, you couldn't even have like a toaster oven in the rooms at the time. I think that was a rule. So I'm sure you've heard this,

versions of this, where she would take bread with cheese, put it into a little sandwich, wrap it in tinfoil, and then smash it with her iron, with a hot iron, and just cook it down. And, oh, man, look, if you're dating and in love in college, and then someone throws a tinfoil iron grilled cheese at you late at night, after you've been drinking? Yeah, that's a relationship you're going to hang on to for a bit. That was great. And then when I moved off campus and was living in this house, I got a book called The Frugal Gourmet. Do you remember that book? The Frugal Gourmet. He was, I think he was a Louisiana guy and like a balding gray guy and it was just all about making

stuff on the cheap. And it was the paperback book. And the one thing, I think I've talked, talked about this in an early podcast, but I made an onion cinder, an onion cinder, which was the only thing we had in the house was an onion. Those times in college when you're just, you completely, like having no money when you're an adult means you still have a bunch of money around, right? I mean, not thousands, but no money does not mean no money. In college, no money meant no money. You literally zero cents and you have to eat. And you've got no friends around.

It was a winter break. We had a fireplace going, burning wood in the fireplace, took out the frugal gourmet, and he gave directions for the onion cinder, which was literally taking your onion wrapping it in tinfoil and tossing it in the fire. That was it. And you pull it out after a certain amount of time. And lucky you, now you get to eat an cooked onion. With the romance of it coming out of the fire, I have to say, had a little smoky to it. Probably a lot of carcinogens. Probably not good for you at all. Did not enjoy it. But I felt a little accomplished like I had actually made something. thing. The biggest poverty stretch of the ingredients that I would have, anytime someone had gotten

Chinese food at any point, you always have that leftover white rice and you take that white rice and throw anything in it in a walk. A little oil, get that rice rocking and rolling, and whatever you can find, just chuck it in there. An egg, if you had an egg, oh, that That was luxury, getting those little egg omelette pieces in your fried rice. And then a carrot, you're probably going to find a carrot, probably an onion from something, probably some Cheetos, probably some leftover pizza crust, and just whatever. Just throw it all in there, the hot, hot walk, fire it up. That is a meal.

And then you could share that one with your friends, even when they were high. and hungry and you would be a star. So anyway, I have been, those are my humble beginnings of starting to cook. And of course, throughout the years, got better, explored things, started to improve, have your different basics from your family life and all that stuff that you learn from your grandparents, the whole pasta Italian thing, of course, and just starting to grill and you just start to discover. And one of the things that goes all, along that curve is your oil, your olive oil. You know, olive oil was always the thing that I was trying to use, again, when you're poor,

you know, tough to get. But, you know, those little basics of, okay, what am I going to use to make this? Is it going to be butter? Is it going to be oil? Being Sicilian, I would always say, let's go with the anything olive adjacent. So I go olive oil and I just do it mindlessly. And what does it mean? And what is good?

And what is bad? And what is on the labels? And you walk into the supermarket and you're faced with all those choices of oils that takes up the whole aisle. And what do you do? I mentioned to Dave in our interview as you'll see that it's a lot like when you're buying wine in a restaurant and you don't know a single one of the wine. on the list and you're trying to muddle through and what do you do then you go by price and you just come down a couple notches and whatever you can afford but also doesn't make you seem like you're cheaping out and just get it but what does it mean when you bring it home and how long can

you keep it and how good is it actually for cooking and is there a difference between the olive oil that you're using for cooking and the olive oil that you're dipping your beautiful sourdough bread in. A lot of questions that never really get answered. And we're going to answer them today. You're going to be very excited about this. I'm going to jump the interview and just tell you what I did when I was done with it, just to give you an example of one of the big breakthroughs. Yeah, you know, yeah. Spoiler alert for who? For us? We're fine. I went and took Dave's olive oil. He has his own

his own line of olive oil called Simone and he said take that olive oil and take a shot of it

take a shot of that olive oil put it in your mouth let it go down see what it tastes like, see what it feels like then take the olive oil that you have in your kitchen that you think is pretty decent and do the same thing. And I'm telling you, my friends, and this is a perfect lead into this interview because this was

revolutionary. I think now, as a grown-up, far from the onion cinder, I know what I'm doing. I got it dialed in, especially with olive oil and Italian cooking. I'm good. I'm sure, Dave, it's going to be a little bit of a different taste. I respect you. He's an expert. He's been studying olive oil his entire career.

He was an olive oil executive. He was started his home line. He was a purchaser of olive oils. He is accredited by the professional olive oil as an accredited professional olive oil taster. This guy knows what he's doing. His whole life is olive oil. I'm like, all right. Yeah, of course, your olive oil is going to taste better than mine.

But mine's not that shabby. I think it was 20 bucks a bottle. It's in the supermarket. I go in. I take a shot of Dave's. Tastes like fresh cut grass almost. Has this little, little stimulation in the back of your throat. Not in a bad way.

Just kind of alive, which he'll explain in the interview what that is. Okay, I expected that. I didn't expect to be so good, but it's great. Now let me take mine. Smells, all right, not as alive. Put a shot in it in the shock glass. take, it's like a half a shot glass, do the same thing with my pretty decent olive oil that has been pretty good money on, and did the thing, taste rancid. There's no expression of real nature

in it. There's no expression of grass, freshly cut grass. There's no, it's kind of like oil. It kind of tastes like what you think oil from a car would taste like. And that little sensation in the back of the throat within five seconds is now burning my throat. It is searing my this is the stuff I use on my salads and give to my family. It is, I'm in trouble. It's intense. It's burning. I had to chase it with, with water. The dog's looking at me like what is happening. And holy cow. Holy cow. This is something I've been doing. I'm a grown-up. I've been cooking.

I've been using this kind of olive oil. This brand or one adjacent to it for a long time. And holy Toledo. What a difference. And you're going to find out why, in this conversation right now, with David Newman, the author of Extra Virgin Olive Oil, The Truth in Your Kitchen. Go get this book. The Health Benefits Alone is worth buying this book.

You're going to get it. really into it. I hope you enjoy it. Thank you for being here with us today and enjoy my conversation with Dave Newman. Thank you so much for doing this, David. Happy to. Very exciting. I mean, as a Italian-American who's been raised and coated in olive oil my whole life, I'm amazed at how confusing the subject remains, how baffled I am in the store, how I get at home and then we'll find myself in trouble or enjoy and not really know if I can even attribute it to what I used or not. So this is at this late stage of my cooking game, this is a very, I'm really excited for this conversation. You're not alone.

So David, you are a accredited professional olive oil taste. or what does that mean? Well, olive oil is the only food in the world that requires human evaluation to verify the claim on the label. Got it. Which, you know, you think would be necessary for a lot of other foods, but it just isn't. So olive oil does require two credible confirmations. One is a chemical analysis. It's about 36 different, you know, analyses.

And then one is a human organoleptic or sensory evaluation conducted by a blind. panel of eight that are professionally trained in how to taste. And it's and those and those evaluations must meet the grade of the label that's declared on the on the label. Beyond that of being a taster, I'm a professional taster. So I went an additional three years to be able to teach tasting, teach olive oil 101, let's call it. And really be an expert. Let's call it to call myself an expert. I had to be a professional. And who, who is, where is this? Is this a global thing or is this a federal thing? I'm accredited by a school in Italy. It's the original Alville School from 1985 and the acronym is O-N-A-O-O-O-O-O-O. And I won't abuse it in Italian because my Italian is terrible,

but it's a non-profit school for only olive oil to teach these sensory attributes of tasting olive oil. And It's accredited by the IOC, which is the International Olive Council, based in Madrid. And they oversee all olive oil in the world except for three countries. And sadly, the U.S. is one of them. Oh, really? Why would that, why would that be? They didn't, they don't. Must have something to do with.

Don't mess with us. We're making money off of this shitty olive oil we're using. You said it. So, David, what started you down this path? Give me a little bit of your history. Sure. Well, 30 years in the food industry. So I've always been in the food industry all the way from the beginning, and always at a high level natural organic specialty. 17 years ago, I was recruited by a really popular olive oil brand to become president of the company. And I was leaving an organic cereal company. So to go from organic breakfast cereal to imported expensive tuscan olive oil is a very complicated. It would be like going from being comedian to a brain surgeon, you know. Very different level of qualifications. and attention to detail.

But I learned it. And I learned it ground up, spending a lot of time in Italy with our production team. But more than that, I realized that after five years of representing a company, I did not know it was in the bottle. And so I had to go to olive old school. So on top of being the president of the company, I went to olive oil school. And I started that in 2011. And I graduated in 2018 in Rome. that's nine years of consecutive training in Italy and every 90 days being evaluated by my professors

with a blind box of samples by Skype and I return every year for an annual recertification to maintain my accreditation. So sadly, I go back to Italy at the end of May. I was just going to say, this sounds like you've really nailed it. I mean, was it as cool as it sounds like you're, not only are you in the greatest place in the world, but you're also dealing with one of the things that they take most pride in. Yeah. I mean, some of those stories are in the book,

and my editor asked me to tone some of them down because she said, they're starting to sound very elitist, and I don't want you to turn people off with this book. You know, having these beautiful dinners in the Gaia estate in Bibona, Italy, with the best Tuscan red wines and, you know, $100 bottles of olive oil, She said, that's not going to play well to your avatar audience that you're hoping to attract. But that was my life for, you know, most of my last 15, 16 years. Oh, my God.

That sounds amazing. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, well, you know, the editor knows the balance, but she didn't have me in mind because just that short description made me want to pack a bag and just leave my family. We would actually go to a little restaurant outside of Livorno in Tuscany. and this restaurant was a seaside restaurant and they had a huge pot like a fish pot,

fish cooking, steaming pot filled with probably five gallons of the most expensive green olive oil you'll ever see. And they just dip a fresh caught fish like a huge sea bass inside of it, not a branzino, but a huge sea bass,

drop it and slowly poach it in the olive oil for a couple hours. And at the end, they throw away the olive oil. You know, like five gallons of olive oil. It just goes. And for us,

I mean, it's like, of course it's like paradise. But for the average consumer, they would say, I'm never going to put $100 of olive oil in a pot and poach a fish. Right. That's how the Italians do it. Because to them, it's like ketchup.

It's just a part of life. Jeez, Louise. So within even Italy, there must be a big range of the artisans and the mass produced. What's the mass produced stuff that comes out of Italy that we get here? Well, the mass produced stuff we get is not Italian. Italy is one of the largest purchasers of olive oil, but they only produce, let's say, half a million metric tons. They export way more than that.

So you'll see brands that say imported from Italy, but it'll actually have products in there from Greece or Tunisia or Spain. So what they're really good at is branding, but they're what they're not great at it because they don't have enough land is growing enough olive oil. So they've been very good at branding, but not. as good as production. Yeah, man, I'm not going to tell that to my Italian family at all. No, but they probably have access to beautiful, you know, single estate, extraverged novel from family or from friends. So what you're getting is they're really good stuff.

I'm talking about the big bottlers. Right. But Spain is the largest producer in the world, but they're not nearly as effective at branding as Italians are. Right. Okay. And the stuff, but you're in Italy. So you're, so when you're there, there and you're figuring it all out. Was it, were they the originators of it or was it Greece? Greece. Yeah. Over 4,000 years ago, it was Greece.

You're absolutely right. And it's one of the original foods. You know, they actually used to use it as currency. Olive oil was so valuable. They would use it as currency. It was a prize in the Olympics. You would get a big vat of olive oil as a prize. Babies were anointed with it at baptism.

Right. You know, the Olympics, they gave you the olive branches around the head. So olives and olive branches and olive oil go back to the beginning, before the beginning. Right. Yeah. And I want to talk a little bit later. You're mentioning in your book all the health benefits of it. But let's stick in the taste stuff.

If you could just take me through, like, I go into the supermarket and I'm faced with a whole aisle of olive oil. How can you calm me down? Well, if you go into a traditional grocery store and you see all those bottles, the look of dread on people's faces, the blood just flushes out of their body. And I use a picture in the classes I teach where it's just a guy looking at the shelf of all these different labels and all these different claims and all these different descriptions. And he's like, oh, my God, I don't know what to do. Because unlike if you go to a seafood counter and there's a fishmonger, or you go to a cheese case and there's usually a cheese person there, you can ask a question. of somebody that knows something. But if you're in a supermarket and you're in a grocery aisle and you're looking at

100 or 200 different bottles of all of all, you're like, I don't know where to begin. So you'll see the constant reading the label, turning it over. Like they know what they're doing. They really don't know what they're doing, but they're trying to figure out how to break the code. Is there some kind of like, you know, some kind of like is in the bottom? Do they give me a decoder on how to figure out all these weird words? So in my book, I basically say, look for price. you know, the higher you pay, higher price you pay, the better chance you're going to get a higher quality oil, like anything.

Which is a, which is that thing that we also have, and it's very similar when you're holding up the bottle, it's very similar to the thing that we all do with wine. Yes. When we're out with shopping in a shop or whether we're in a restaurant and you see the wine and you, and they even price it this way because they know you're going to probably not know anything, go based on the number. What does it cost? and then go to the top and come down a couple notches to where you're comfortable. Yeah. And, but you're saying that that actually is a good metric. Well, it's a metric.

It's not. The best metric is your nose and your mouth, and I'm sure we'll get to that. But a good metric at standing at the shelf is the more that the store is selling something, probably the better that it is. And just like filet mignon costs more than hamburger. Right. A meat department is not going to sell a filet mignon for the cost of hamburger or vice versa. Right.

So when you go to a grocery buyer and you show that, them, your olive oil, you have to explain to them why that oil is worth $20 a bottle on the shelf. They're not just going to take it and put that price on there. That's the first kind of arbiter for a consumer is if it, you know, if it costs a little bit more, it's probably a little bit better. But there's a lot of other things that can happen in that process, just like wine. Just because you pay up for it doesn't mean it's any better or could be completely terrible. Looking for single country of origin. Made in Italy, not imported from Italy, but product of Italy or made in Italy. Product of Greece, product of Spain. That means you're getting one country. You're not getting this

big bowl of all these different countries that are bulking their oils together and packing it one place and then shipping it to you and passing it off as something. Those are called Mediterranean blends and those are really unfortunate. You can hide a lot of mistakes and a lot of problems by bulking the oil together and packaging it up. Right. And when you say, when you say problems, it's like if there's like a bad batch or if there's stuff that's in it that on its own would be a red flag, but you can kind of mush it together with other stuff. Well, yes, there's actually legal defects. Remember, the IOC, the International Olive Council oversees all of the olive standards. And the USDA does

have a standard for olive oil that mirrors IOC. It's in the, it's on, it's on the books in the USDA. It's available to anybody on the USDA website. It's the olive oil act of 2010. And the defects are listed. And these defects are classical to olives being somewhat abused either by mother nature or by man. And the only thing that can happen in the bottle, so once the bottle is packaged, Either if it has defects in it, it should have never been called extra virgin by law. If it didn't have defects when it passed a tasting panel and the chemical test we talked about and was shipped with the words extra virgin, but has gone bad, that would be rancid. Rancidity is the only thing that can happen in the bottle as a defect that would make it

illegal basically to call it extra virgin because it's false labeling. It's only extraversion if it has no defects. So if it went bad in any point of the handling of that oil and has a defect of rancid, now that cannot be sold as extra virgin. Gotcha. Is that the only thing that makes it extra virgin? No, extra virgin must be the first press of the olives by mechanical means without the use of heat, pressure, or chemicals.

And so when they talk about first cold press, it's the olives that are going through the mill, raw and coming out through the whole process of malacation and separation into an oil, the water and the solids, the pumice have been separated, and you have an oil. That has not been graded yet, so it's not known if it's extra virgin, but it is the first pressing. And inside these machines, Tom, it's like hammers. They're beaten the olives or crushing the olives or little knives, crushing the olives, into a mash. If you take defective oil or you take the pumice, the leftovers, and you see,

send it to a refinery, that's called refined oil. And it would be where they use hexane as a solvent, pressure and high heat, and extract all the bad stuff, all the smells, all the bad taste and basically makes it an odorless, flavorless base oil. And then they add back a little smidge of virgin olive oil for color and flavor and sell that as pure, light, extra light, refined pumice oil like that. So the U.S. classifies it as unrefined virgin oil. or refined olive oil. Got it, got it. So when you are in that supermarket, we're back to the scary aisle,

and there are labels, will there be labels in the States then that say, can they say things are virgin that are not? Most of them do. Really? Yeah, sorry, I know it's Monday and it's not a good data for this at shit. I can take it, Dave. I could take it.

Working in olive oil for 17 years, you know, it's almost like being, you know, an undertaker. It's it's a job that nobody else wants to deal with, but it has to be done. Right. I wish olive oil was not as complicated and fraught with a dilemma as it is. It's a beautiful food. Like you grew up with it. But if you really want to be truthful and you buy a bottle that says extra virgin, which by the way, if you walk down the street, anybody you have, ask what kind of olive oil you use, they'll say extra virgin. And if you ask them, why do you want

extra virgin? They'll say, well, some doctor told me I should or I read in a magazine. And if you ask them, what does extra virgin mean? They'll go, I don't know. I just was told to get extra virgin. Yeah. That's the problem is everybody wants extra virgin. But if the producers in America actually sold what the bottle really is, it would not be extra virgin. It would probably be virgin, which is a gray down, which is perfectly fine if it was labeled that way, but most of the, none of them are. There is no virgin oil for sale in America, not on the stores, maybe in bulk for like restaurants, but there is no virgin olive oil that I know of that's sold that way. Or it could be Lampante, which means lamp oil.

It means it's not fit for consumption. It's so bad and so defective that it should not be eaten. It should be put in lamps. And it's on the shelves today. Jeez, Louise. Now, you're saying that's produced in the U.S. though, right? No, no.

Produced anywhere. Shipped to the U.S. Ships to the U.S. Yeah, it comes in that way. So the defects that can happen, which is really what makes me the most angry, and I write about it in my book, is when these farms produce, let's say they had a bad year, okay? Let's say there's a fly, the olive fly is really predominant in Italy, and they drill into the olive,

and they live in the olive. It creates a defect called grubby. Grubby is almost like a sweetness. It's almost like tu-de-frutty when you smell it. I know grubby very well. Well, that's a defect. The olives have kind of started to ferment because of the oxidation from the hole that fly created. You cannot get rid of it.

So when they crush those olives, by the way, the fly is in those olives. So there's no longer vegan, let's say. I taste the defect. The bottlers pass it off. Now, how it got through a tasting panel, I don't know, but it ends up on the shelf as grubby called Extra Virgin, which is not allowed. and the consumer and therefore is consuming a defective oil unbeknownst to them because they don't know how to evaluate taste and smell. Right.

So that's the bait and switch that happens today on the shelf and there's many more defects like that. As you go through your life and you start becoming a grown up and you start to have people in your life that you care about and who depend on you, you start to realize you are in the market for life insurance. you want to know, and I know this from experience, you want to know that, God forbid, if something would ever happen, the people that are looking for you to take care of them and put them through school and keep them safe and happy, they're going to remain that way if you can't provide for them. Policy genius is your one shop stop to find and buy the insurance you need. It's a great service. You head to policygenius.com.

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Look, I have to say when I got it, and I know I have a policy, and I know I have a policy, and it's all wrapped up and I know that I've kind of done the right things. You get a little sense of pride that you thought about others in your life and that they're going to be okay. It's a good piece of mind and this is a good company to get you to that piece of mind. Head to policygenius.com to get your free life insurance quotes and see how much you could save. So are you, is there any place that's better off than going to your supermarket that you'd be a little more protected? There are better chains. I don't know if you want to talk about them, but they're in my book as a reference,

and they're on my website as a reference. But typically, the more specialty chains that you can think of, the better the oil options are going to be. The more direct you can buy your oil from the producer through the website, the better. Amazon is not necessarily the best way to do it. Going to the manufacturer's website and getting it from them is probably one of the best ways to do it. Why not? Why not through Amazon? Well, Amazon, I'm not really a big fan of the way that they rotate product. Like, how long has it been sitting around? Are they picking it fresh?

Are they, you know, from the inventory? Sometimes I've had seen bottles of glass bottles, bottles, soldables shipped in plastic bags from Amazon. Oh, wow. And broken. So I kind of, I kind of have resigned the fact that almost every brand has their own website. Just go to the website and Forget about the ease of Amazon. You're not going to buy olive oil that frequently. Buy a good bottle directly from the manufacturer. Let them ship it to you. It's going to be a really good bottle at a fair price,

and you're going to be happy with it. Right. Okay. Stores do have good bottles, and I write about that extensively in the book, but there's a chapter called grocery games, which specifically outlines some of the stuff that the retailers don't want you to know

about how they merchandise products, more about price than that is about quality. But you'll have to know how to smell and taste, And that's, again, part of my book is I teach you in a very simple form how to smell and taste olive oil, very simple, and keep yourself up on the knowledge so that you're not making a mistake that you are unaware of. Right. Now, when we're going down this olive oil path of what to buy and how to use it, when you get like a really expensive, nice bottle of olive oil and you bring it home. I mean, I'm a bread baker and there's nothing better than taking that bread, dipping it in that olive oil. I mean, it's such a pure expression of it. Yeah.

Would you also use that to cook with? Would you also, is it, should it be, is there different purposes for it? Is there some that should be, it's so elegant, we should just be tasting this and making it the lead? Yeah. And would that same bottle, should I use that as the base of my, uh, tomato sauce. Well, I'm sure, you know, maybe in your household, there's a number of different salad dressings in the, in the refrigerator, a number of different hot sauces.

We all don't like the same thing. And olive oils can be very robust and green, fruity, almost, you know, bitter and pungent in the throat. That may turn off somebody in the family. They may want something milder, and there's a milder oils. So understanding flavor and fruityness of olive oils is really important. But when you're talking about usage, the higher quality oils that you're not, you're you were talking about with your bread are called finishing oils or drizzling oils,

like what I sent you. Those are more expensive. They're made, they're very, they're very curated the way that they're made. Olives are handpicked. The bottles are packed with nitrogen. It's a lot of special stuff. But when you smell and taste that oil, it is absolutely divine. And if you have guests or if you're serving with homemade bread, that's what you want

to use. When you're cooking, it's less important that you use a very expensive oil because you're kind of wasting it. you're not going to get the health benefits. As long as it's extra virgin, and as long as you follow your nose in your mouth, which I teach, then you can use anything you want. I would just avoid any Mediterranean blends, no matter how cheap they look in the store. I would avoid anything that's buy one, get one free because, you know,

it's probably not really extra virgin if they can sell it for that kind of price. And I would make sure that you don't carry more oil open in your house and you need for, let's say, 30 days because the oil will go rancid. So in my book, I actually show in Greece a lady frying. Oh, yeah, I saw that. I was with extra virgin olive oil. You know, it's amazing when I saw that picture, I was just like, what is she doing? What does she know?

Yeah. Well, the Greeks, the Spaniards and Italians use olive oil for everything. I'm sure when you go there, you see it used all over the place. They cook with it in the pan. Yeah. I cook only with olive oil. But the extra virgin, the really good stuff, it will not really give you that flavor or that health benefit that you would get if it was raw.

So you can dumb it down a little bit, use maybe an older bottle, use something that's maybe on sale that is not as expensive. Some of the California oils are really reasonable. They're local. They don't cost as much to get here. Their oils tend to be like from an Arbikina, which is a cultivar that's a little bit more mild. So it's not as disruptive maybe in a pan when you're cooking.

It doesn't overwhelm the food. Right. You've got to kind of be a bit of a foodie. Like if you drink wine, you kind of know red wine with meat, white wine with fish. With one of all, you have to start learning how to pair. Right, right. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. I mean, there's, you know, if you're using it at the base of like a red sauce, it's going to, there's so much is going to go in.

It's really just for its consistency. Right. You know, and I have a little bit of the flavor, I'm sure that you're not even aware of. But then if you're making, if you're just doing garlic and olive oil with that pasta for the night, maybe you go up a couple of notches because then you're really going to taste it. Yeah, the olive oil, the two main desires for people use extra virgin grade is flavor and health. So if you really want flavor, then you need a flavorful oil. And typically the better quality oils have more flavor. If you get a supermarket brand or go into your cupboard and open what you have and smell and taste it. If it doesn't smell fruity, grassy,

green herbaceous, if it smells like waxy, paint, varnish, top. tires, then that's not extra virgin. And it's no Bueno. And I would get rid of it. I really would. Yeah. No, the bottle I sent you, if you open it and you smell that oil, it should smell poo, like a salad, like.

I was just going to say, I love that you use the word grassy because that was the first thing I thought of when I opened it and put it on my finger. It was like, oh, this is like almost like fresh cut grass. Yes. And I didn't, I really didn't want to lead with it because I didn't know if it would be insulting or not. Right. But you know if you eat spirulina.

or orugula, if you eat these green peppery leaves that we were told to eat, there's an d'Ave, there's a lot of bitter foods. Olive oil, if it's really bitter and pungent in the back of your throat, that's the good stuff. Those are the polyphenols, the oleocanthals that we need for health. That's the other side. So you got the flavor, but you also have the health benefit. All right. Well, that's a good segue into the health of it all.

You know, why is this so powerful? Why is it made people so healthy who've used it? I mean, every time I talk to people about diet, everybody kind of comes slowly back to a Mediterranean diet, some form of a Mediterranean diet. And this is a big part of it. Yeah. Well, it was rated again this year by a leading magazine that it was the number one diet in America was the Mediterranean diet. Wow. Based on, you know, really kind of small amounts of protein, balancing your carbs and your fats, good fats like olive oil, which is a mono and saturated fat, you know, eating seasonally, you know, not having. strawberries off season, not having foods that were not grown locally. Yes, we have to eat imported foods and olive oil is imported, but we need to kind of be mindful of what we're eating. And olive oil, extra virgin grade does have health properties, but you have to be very careful

to make sure that you're using a quality extra virgin because if you just bought a bottle at $5 or $6 and you thought just because it says extra virgin that's got health properties, it likely doesn't. So that's where the government is very cautious about letting people that sell olive oil make health claims. Right. Because you can't say high polyphenols in America. Polyphenols are the best benefit of extra virgin olive oil. They're antioxidant, anti-inflammatory. And a good friend of mine, Dr. Artemis Morris, who has a practice, she's a natural path and has a practice in Connecticut of Greek descent, uses 24, 25 liters of olive oil a year all the time and everything. You know, she would say that you need two tablespoons a day of quality olive oil, raw,

not cooking with it, doesn't count, to get the minimum benefits of those anti-inflammatories, which kind of mimic ibuprofen. So instead of taking ibuprofen for arthritis, you have extra virgin olive oil every day. And if you feel like you're having artery blockages, if your doctor says, you know, you need to eat a cleaner diet, you need to have more olive oil, high quality extravergton olive oil, clean the pipes, the monosaturated fats, clean, they're the good fats. Right, right. So all oil is 120 calories a serving.

So if you have bad oil, it's 120 calories. And if you have great oil, it's 120 calories. So let's make sure that if we're going to get those calories, that they actually deliver what we need them to, which is flavor and health benefit. So two tablespoons could sound a lot, sound like a lot to people. But how do you, how do you get, and do you eat that much in a day? I weigh more than that. And I want to make sure. So this is olive oil.

I just poured it out of my bottle. Okay. Right. You smell it. Mm-hmm. You taste it. Yeah. If it tastes good, you swallow it.

So I just swallowed 5ml of olive oil. Right. A serving is 15ml. A tablespoon is 15ml. Do it again. Smell, taste. I just swallowed 10 ml of olive oil. Okay.

It's not going to hurt you. Right. If it's good. If it's bad, it's going to be an unpleasant experience. Right. So I really teach me. people to get over this fear of putting fat in your mouth, smell and taste. Like when you dip your bread in olive oil, you are eating oil, but it's on the bread. Now, I just try to get raw because I'm used to it.

Yeah. But I use olive oil every day and everything from eggs in the morning, a salad at lunch. I don't use salad dressing. You use olive oil, salt pepper, maybe it squeeze a lemon. And dinner, I always find a way of sauteing, cooking. You know, when it says rice, add olive oil or butter, I add olive oil. the rice. Right. Taking pasta, I add oil so the pasta doesn't stick. Yeah. There's a million with pizza.

When you finish a pizza, drizzle it with olive oil like they do in Italy in Rome. They finish the pizza with olive oil. Steak. Right. Instead of putting, you know, steak sauce on all of on steak, put extra virgin olive oil. Yeah, that's a great move. I do that too. That is a, that really is.

The hidden tip. If you want to surprise guests, if you're having a house party. Yeah. You want to really surprise them. You get a great bottle of olive oil. you put some out for dipping, you bring it to the table for finishing the dish, you show your guests how to use great extra virgin olive oil, they will leave and say, wow, I learned something amazing today and it only costs $20 when I go to the store.

Right. You know, it's not like you're having to go buy a new computer or anything. It's just getting a really good bottle of olive oil and it changes the way we eat and hopefully it changes our health for a very small price. I mean, what is the cost of our health? Yeah, yeah, that's a great point. What is the, are there price points where you think we are getting duped? You have a chapter in your book called getting duped.

Is there a price point that you're like, okay, now we're getting into the land of make believe? Well, I do talk about, and I don't want to bore your listeners, but I do talk about what's called the pool red price, which is a spot price for olive oil or extra virgin olive oil in the world. And the math of that is in the book. But typically, just to keep it easy, for a half liter bottle, a 500 ML bottle, a 500 ML bottle, bottle. This is a half liter bottle. My bottle is $30. Okay. I would consider that to be pricey. If you got a typical grocery store leader for half a liter, like one of the big brands, it may be $7.99. $7.99 for the same size as $30 is a big gap. You have to ask yourself, what's causing that gap if all the costs are about the same? Right. So it's got to be the

quality of the oil that's affecting. The glass is about the same. The production is about the same. It's the oil and better oil costs more. So if you can only afford less, then get what you can afford, but make sure it's extra virgin. And you can get really good extraversion for that half liter, $10.11, I wouldn't go below that. It's even low enough. I would say 15 is probably for a half liter or $10 for the small 250 size. I actually even made, you know, a travel size, 100 ML because people can take it to restaurants and use it. bring their own oil to the restaurant instead of using that scary stuff that's in that clear

cruet that's sitting on the table. That's a real power move. That's a really great move. My wife complains bitterly when I do that. When you take it out. A waiter starts looking at me funny. And sometimes the owner of the restaurant comes out and says, what's the wrong with my oil? Why don't you want to use my oil?

Then you sell them your oil. I'm a snob. I'm a snob. I'm sorry. I know. I'm a same way. Tell me about your bottle. So this is my oil and I created it basically as a homage to my wife, Simone, who I converted from a typical olive oil user when I met her.

She was buying it a local kind of discount natural chain and left it in her cupboard for months and months. And when I met her and I opened that bottle, it almost knocked me off my feet. And I said, why would you use it? She says, what's wrong with it? And I said, it's rancid and defective and inedible. She says, I use it. It smells like olive oil. I went, oh, I don't know if I can marry this woman.

Fast forward about six months. She started using it two or three times a day in everything. And there's a picture of her actually adding it to her shake. So she's become my muse. And she is my age, maybe our age in our late 50s, knocking on that ugly 60. And when she goes to the doctor, she gets all her blood done like all of us should do. And the doctor says, I hope you're prepared to live forever. because your blood work is that of a 25-year-old.

Wow. And the doctor says, what have you done differently? She says, I drink, I eat the same, I travel. The only thing is I have three or four servings of extra virginalable high quality every single day. Really? I'm not a small guy. I have 120 over 65 blood pressure. I have a 62 resting heartbeat.

You know, I have low triglycerides. I have 120 combined cholesterol. Wow. Hopefully my skin looks pretty good. Yeah, you look like a baby face. So extra virgin olive oil is the secret to the Mediterranean. And if they're making it work, why can't we make it work? Right.

Just because we weren't born to it. And that's in the book. As I'm an Ashkenazi Jew, what do I know about olive oil? Right. I had to learn it. Yeah. Wow, that is amazing. I'm going to put that to the test, just the blood pressure test.

Because I do have it, but the way you're talking about it, you know, like I said, I throw it in my things and I throw it on my salad and but it's kind of casual and it's usually when I'm really think I'm, you know, getting creative in there. But it's the in between things. In between the big meals is when I should be adding it to the diet. I listened to your episode last year with Tignitaro. Right. She talked about how disciplined she is, that there's foods that she has to have in her diet every day, a certain amount of nuts and seeds and leaves. Right. And once she has all that, She can have the bad stuff, but she needs to get that good stuff.

And I learned that on your show, and I really like that. Just use two servings of extra virgin olive all day. Think about it. Just start with two servings a day, not cooking with it. That doesn't count. Put it in something raw and see how you feel. And if you start feeling better and your blood's starting to look better, then you've done something that didn't require a lot of intervention.

Didn't require you to go to some kind of like five-day, you know, inpatient clinic. All you did was change from supermarket kind of questionable. extra virgin olive oil, maybe, to real extra virgin olive oil in your diet. Yeah, that's amazing. That is such a, I go to this Italian market here in L.A. And I go there pretty often. And they have the oil section. And I'm such a sucker for the tin, the square, the big beautiful.

They're just, but they look so cool. They've got this beautiful artwork. And they're in those big jugs. you think, well, that has to be better, right? No. I would say it's a beautiful showpiece for the kitchen maybe, put it in the cupboard. Don't use it. Right, right.

Smaller the bottle, the better because you're going to use it up more frequently. And the good brands pack nitrogen in this, what they call the headspace here. Okay. So this bottle, it says on the label, some do, some don't. But the good bottlers will put nitrogen here because air is corrosive. Oxygen is corrosive. Right. So oil and air do not work well together.

So if you pack a bottle of olive oil. oil with air, then that air is going to corrode the oil. And it's just a matter of months before it becomes rancid. Right. But the big bottlers are hoping for is that you buy it fast and you use it fast and you don't taste it and you don't notice that it's maybe going bad. The quality producers pack with nitrogen and they want you to buy smaller units so that you use it up faster. And with no air in the bottle, it's going to last longer, you know, before you open it. Once you open it, you've induced air in there, all bets are off. But unopened, that's, um, that's, bottle should last at least to the best before date that's printed on the back.

Right. All right. Cool. Yeah. How do you dress your salads? You just, you don't. Extra virgin olive oil. You don't throw vinegar in there?

No. No. Extra virgin olive oil. Okay, go ahead. Extra virgin olive oil, kosher salt, crush, fresh cracked black pepper and a squeeze of lemon. And you just toss it together. And when you go to Italy, you know, it doesn't matter if you're Rome, Milan, Venice. It's the same thing.

There is no salad dressing. That's an American. invention, you know, full of all kinds of stuff. And it's okay, especially the ones that use extra virgin olive, but I would defy you to find a really good quality salad dressing that has quality extra virgin in there. They're probably buying these huge drums of very low quality product that's called extra virgin because that's what people want to see on the label. But do the people that are making that salad dressing know how to test that oil before they introduce it to the formula to make the dressing to make sure that it's extra virgin still? Right, right,

So I liken this to if, you know, if you go to the store and you go to the butchery case and you see a rotted piece of meat in the case, you would never buy it. No one would buy it. In fact, the but the butchery manager probably get fired. Right. But in the grocery aisles, in that Italian market with all those bottles of olive oil, most of it is rotted black, rotten, inedible olive oil. And nobody knows the difference because you can't tell, you can't smell it through the glass.

Right. You can't smell it like a piece of fish or look at it like a piece of meat. So all of these mysterious words and magical symbols are very daunting to a consumer. And that's what I'm trying to dispel in my book is don't worry about that. Just buy it, take it home, smell it and taste it. And if you love it, it's probably the extra virgin, be happy. And if it tastes terrible, take it back to the store and say, I'm going to try again. Right.

And if you buy, if you're in a place, if you're traveling and you find a place and you taste it and it blows you away, Is it like wine where you could buy it? And as long as you don't open it, you're going to be, you can hang on to it for a while. If it's a good bottle and yes, the best before date should be met. If it's kept in a cool place, like in a pantry, don't keep it in your kitchen with a light in the house or the light outside is going to affect it. Even this dark glass, you can see through it. Yeah. Some of the bottles are painted and you can't get through it.

This is about 90% UV block, but not 100%. Right. So keep it in a pantry. If you see a bottle. that you really liked. Let's say you go to that market and you find a bottle that you really liked. And let's say it's on sale for three or four dollars off. Buy three or four bottles. Give them his gifts, keep them in your pantry. You're set for some months. Yeah. But that's what I look for is I look for really good things, not just oil. I look for things that I

like that are still in shelf life and I buy them up and I have them because, you know, in today's world of supply, who knows what tomorrow's going to be? I mean, whoever thought we'd have to have an extra supply of toilet paper in our life, you know, like we live in a thorough world country. I've got enough toilet people to get me through the whole next COVID thing. I'm ready. Yeah. It's so upsetting. It's amazing. Do you have a website that people can go and get your Simone? Absolutely. So it's evo guy.com. E-V-O-O-O-G-U-I.com. And that is my site that has the book, the oil, all kinds of references of how to find good brands, industry stalwarts, people that I trust that, you know, have been good to the olive industry, governmental regulations like the USDA or the International Olive Council, links to all of them. I don't take any sponsorships.

I don't take any affiliate pay. Anything you see is recommended was with the caveat that the oil that is in that bottle could have been damaged through what I call halt, heat, air, light, and time. That's the criminals of quality. Heat, air, light, and time. Right. So was the bottle exposed to a hot environment, like a container sitting on a ship for two months coming from Portugal? The oil at 100 degrees for two months is shot. Right.

Of course. Time has it been sitting on a shelf for too long? Is it just dated out? Air, remember once I said you open the top, air comes in, nitrogen goes out. Now you're sealing the air back in. It's corroding the oil. And light, if you have a clear glass bottle or a clear glass cruet, it's obviously going to damage the oil. So even these really good brands that are expensive could still have bad oil in the bottle.

Once you crack it open and that air gets in there, what are we talking about? 30 days. 30 days. All right. It's going bad every day. But after 30 days, I would say cook with it. You know, fry chicken marsala, do something with it. Just don't use it raw.

You know, it's just like anything. If you got a big thing of orange juice at the grocery store and you really enjoyed it. And then you left it out a little bit and it took some time. You start to see it separate and then the solid start to get a little bit sour. That orange juice after a week is starting to be pretty funky. After a month, you wouldn't drink it. Right. So olive oil is highly perishable.

It's from an olive. There's nothing done with it. There's no heat. There's no preservation. So use it up. Get another bottle. Be happy that you throw your bottle in the recycling bin. get into a new bottle and say, wow, I just finished a bottle. I'm into the next bottle.

Right. I ship only online from me. I'm not on Amazon. I'm not in stores. I have hundreds of customers that buy Just Direct for me, but I don't want to be in the olive oil business as my life. What I want to do is be an expert that people trust and that my 17 years of experience and all these years of school and running olive oil companies and being consultant has led me to be able to be a trusted resource for people like you that care about what they eat and what they serve the family. Oh, it's great. I'm really, I feel so, I feel so, calm down already. I really do. Just compare what you have in your cupboard today. Yeah.

With a little cup, do what I did. You know, these are the professional glasses. You may have that, but smell your oil, taste your oil, see if you like what you have, and then smell and taste my oil and see the difference. And if you go, wow, it's a big difference. It isn't just the dollar difference. It's the difference of what you bought versus what you have from me. It's a quality difference. No, that's a great point because a lot of times you don't do, you never compare that.

You just get it and it's there. And like your wife was saying when you met her, it's just the olive oil. It's the olive oil. That's what you would think it should be. But until something comes up against it, you're not going to really know the difference. That is 100 times out of 100, times when I do tastings and I have done thousands and thousands of tastings with people directly with consumers on the ground. I spent two years before COVID doing this on the ground at events at

wine and wine and food events and I would taste oils and I always had a reference oil, a less than good supermarket oil not to be named. And I would say, I just bought this. I'd open the bottle and then I do the good oil first because you don't want to beat up their palate soon. You want to smell and taste what really is good extra virgin. They go, wow, okay, that smells great. And then I have them smell and taste the supermarket and all. They go, wow, that is not so great. Yeah.

I said that comparison is the difference. Right. Have a really good lettuce, like a beautiful heirloom butter lettuce or romaine and then eat iceberg lettuce. Right. They're both lettuce. Yeah. But one is really just empty calories.

It's nothing. It's a filler. The other one is beautiful. You can make a beautiful salad. You can dress it. So it's very much the same as everything we have in life. There's, you know, American cheese and then there's beautiful age cheddar cheese. Yeah.

It's all I'm talking about is make sure you know what you're buying, make sure you know how to use it. And don't be afraid of putting oil in your mouth. Right. It's a, it really comes down to just thoughtfulness. You know, a lot of times we get, you're running, you're just cranking out food for your family. You're just stuffing it in your face. You're just, you're not thinking. If you could just take a beat just.

to think about what you're eating or drinking, you can then fold it into your life. I did it with coffee, you know, like I used to just have coffee. And then when I really started to learn about it and compare it, now the thing that I have that is my everyday when I'm hustling is really great stuff. And your life actually improves in so many ways. And I think you feel like you're treating yourself, you know, you're getting your special cup of coffee in the morning. This bottle that I talked about is $30. Right now I have it on sale for $20 because I'm clearing out. harvest. And that's another thing if we have the time is, you'll notice my bottle has a harvest year on here, harvest of 2021. That was the harvest before. The new harvest was this October in 21,

22. And I was there in Andalusia at this estate. That oil is coming in this week from Spain. It's because of shipping problems. It's about a month behind. So I need to clear out this older oil, which is still perfectly good. The best before date, if you see, is still 2023. But it's not good enough for me. So I discount it to my cost, sell it out, and then the new oil comes in. Do you think any other big producers worry about the harvest date from what customers are getting? No, I care. I care because I want people to have the best they can get for the money that they're spent. It's still 90 cents a serving. What costs 90 cents today? Right. You know? Yeah, that's great. We throw 90 cents away, you know, on a lottery ticket that you'll never

going to win. So I say treat yourself two servings a day is $1.80 for the best olive oil you can get. We're worth it. Our health is worth it. And I really like what you had to say where people are busy. I call it the path of lease resistance. They go into a store, whatever on sale, what's ever on display, they don't think about it because it's just a fat. It's a cooking fat like butter. Like they're busy. I get it. But what COVID taught us is we better be self-resilient. We better learn how to cook at home. and when we are at home, we better be using things that we enjoy, like matching a restaurant quality is not that difficult. Right.

And olive oil is the simplest thing you can do because it's not like chicken. You have to prepare it. Olive oil is what it is in the bottle. So why not get a really good bottle and enjoy it? That's great. Well, this is so great. One last question. You might not be a great question to ask because maybe it's one step removed.

But are you a fan of just straight up olives? I actually am not a fan of olives. I can't believe you are picking that scab. You know, olives are brined. And that brinedness in the olive is not something that I'm a huge fan of. To be honest, I love pickles and all that are kind of pickled food. But olives just don't do it for me in the mouth, eating an olive. Olive oil, I'm like super nerd, super love.

Yeah. But olives, I'm not. And now Mediterranean people, they live by olives. Right. Yeah. No, I'm an olive fan. But it makes sense. I mean, just because you love great wines doesn't mean you're eating handfuls of grapes. Right. I mean, it's a different thing completely. I don't love ketchup, but I love tomatoes. I love pasta sauce. I love almost anything that's made with a tomato except for ketchup. So we're all a little bit weird about food. I don't, I don't, being in the food business my whole career, I'm very understanding of people in their food fetishes. Right. Olive oil isn't for everybody.

I'm going to tell you right now, it's just something that not everybody's thinking about, and I get it, I understand it. But if you cook at home, if you care about your family, if you entertain, extra virgin olive oil quality is foundational in your kitchen. So great. Well, thank you so much for being here. This was such an education. I really feel relaxed.

I really do. I feel relaxed because I now have the answers to something that I run into all. the time that I never got an answer for. Again, tell me with the website where they can get extra virgin olive oil, the truth in your kitchen and the Simone olive oil. Right. So I will shamelessly plug my book, extra virgin olive, truth in your kitchen. Pre-ordering now on all the major websites, Barnes & Noble, Amazon like that. My website, I have advanced copies available. Evogai.com, E-V-O-O-G-U-Y.com. I have my oil. I have my books. And you can more than that email me any questions you have, and I'm happy to answer them directly. So great to meet you.

Great to meet you. Thank you for taking part in this and having me on. And I hope that as you think about food going forward, that olive oil will always be a little bit of an issue in your mind and ask questions. Do you use good olive oil in that recipe? How do you cook with your olive oil? Because it really is the foundation of almost everything we eat. Oh, yeah. And when I get a good report from my doctor, I'm going to send you a big thank you on email. I'm happy to finish my bottle. don't let me know how you feel. All right, I will. Good to meet you.

Thank you for having you on. All right, you too, Dave. Take care yourself. Bye-bye. Thank you. All right. That's it for our conversation with Dave Newman. I told you it was going to be good. I told you these things are going to linger in your brain and you're going to get his book

and it's going to be something that you can always refer to. Just the health benefits alone. Another thing I've been doing since I spoke to him, drinking olive oil all the time. When I'm home, I'm just trying to put it on stuff. I even take shots of it sometimes in the morning. I'm putting it on more. things. I want to see if it helps my heart. That's the big thing. I want to know that my blood pressure is being brought down like Dave's wife was. So thank you to Dave Newman. A great thing,

a great conversation, a great book. Go get it wherever books are sold. Again, it's extra virgin olive oil, the truth in your kitchen. Thank you to policy genius and thank you to all of you for joining us once again here at Breaking Bread. We will see you next week with more fun, more insight, more laughs and hopefully more bread.