Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 10/14/24: Kamala Falling In Polls, Obama Scolds Black "Brothas" To Vote Kamala, Kamala Declares War On Jill Stein, Trump Says He's Doing Rogan

Episode Date: October 14, 2024

Krystal and Saagar discuss Kamala faltering in polls, Former Senator Nina Turner joins to talk about Obama scolding black men voters, Kamala declares war on Jill Stein with new attack ad, and Trump says he's going on Rogan. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. But there were some dark truths behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. Enter Camp Shame, an eight-part series examining the rise and fall of Camp Shane and the culture that fueled its decades-long success. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus.

So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? and subscribe today. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glott. And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir.

Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This kind of starts that a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at the recording studios. Stories matter and it brings a face to it. It makes it real. It really does.

It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, guys. Ready or Not 2024 is here, and we here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal? Indeed, we do. Lots of things happening here and around the world. So a

bunch of new polls came out. None of them really very good for Democrats. We'll take a look at the shifts there and what exactly is going on. We're also going to speak to Senator Nina Turner. She is going to talk to us about that Obama lecture to black men. This is wild. She has a lot of thoughts. So excited to talk to her about that. And also Dems are cutting an ad against Jill Stein, another third party candidate. That's a first. And I think it displays their nervousness about how much Jill Stein in particular could cut into their vote totals probably in states like Michigan. So we're also going to ask Nina Turner about that. Apparently, Trump is saying that he is going to go on Joe Rogan's podcast.

Rogan had in the past resisted having the former president on. Perhaps that may be changing. So we'll talk about that in the broader context of what people are deeming now the podcast election. A lot of very troubling news coming out of Israel and Gaza in particular. There was a horrific strike by Israel on a hospital. A tent city there for displaced people caught fire. There are just unimaginably awful images of patients strapped to IVs who are being burned alive. So we will brace yourself for that one, but we'll talk about that. Also, Hezbollah struck an Israeli military base, and there were some significant number of casualties there. That's quite significant as well. We're taking a look at,

on a much lighter note, Gretchen Whitmer apologizing after filming a really weird video. Show you that. And I'm taking a look at Elon's impact on this election, which may actually be unprecedented given the fact that Trump is saying he is giving him $500 million, so half a billion dollars. And obviously, he's running an entire social media platform for his benefit. He's effectively running the Trump campaign in Pennsylvania, which is the most critical swing state. So we'll take a look at all of those things. Yeah, it's gonna be really interesting. Before we get to that, thank you to everybody who's been signing up at BreakingPoints.com, premium subscribers. Remember, we have that exclusive election content with our forecaster,

Logan. He will be on the show tomorrow. So you're going to take some behind the scenes look. I found his analysis like so, so helpful. This guy is so in the weeds. And we also will be dropping exclusive election content as we get closer to election day. How long is it? 21, 22 days, I think. It is. They're really close. Three weeks in one. So we're getting down to the wire. Pretty close to the time change too. Excited for that. Right before election day. So we get two double whammies. But go ahead and sign up breakingpoints.com. You'll be able to take a look at our maps. We'll just say, you know, our maps were quite accurate last time. So there you go.

Yours more so than mine. Gotta give you credit for that. You know, it's funny. I called every state in the election. I thought I would get more credit for it. And it ended up, though, because of Stop the Steal, Republicans were like, no, your map is wrong. But yeah, I did call every state in the election. I did mistakenly click Maine wrong, so it doesn't look right. But in the spirit of it, it was off by 1%. I apologize. Yeah, so we'll see. You want to go ahead and sign up? You can take a look at that. We'll reveal them a couple of days before election day. We'll all talk about it and stuff like that. So let's go ahead and start with the polls. As you said, things really not looking good for

Kamala Harris and the Democrats right now. Let's put this up there right now. Three national polls dropped yesterday morning. ABC, Ipsos, Harris was up 50 to 48. CBS News, YouGov, Harris was up 51, 48. NBC News, 48, 48, tied. All three had their last polls in September. So listen to this. ABC in September, Harris was up by six, now only up by two. NBC, Harris was up by four, up now by three. And NBC, probably the biggest drop, had Harris up by five at that time, now having the race tied. So keep in mind, not only are all of these polls within the margin of error, but most importantly, two or three points in the national popular vote is just not going to cut three, maybe, but two, almost certainly not. You guys can go ahead and take a look at Nate Silver's popular vote analysis for yourself

if you're interested. But none of those are comfortable enough territory for Kamala Harris. And when we start to break down where the change and all of that is coming from, and some of the movement on the economy, that's probably the most important. Steve Kornacki at NBC News breaking this down. Let's take a listen. She's the VP in an unpopular administration. Look, we asked Joe Biden's policies as president. Do you think they're helping or hurting your family? Look at that.

Almost two to one say hurting more than helping. His job approval rating is in the low 40s. And then here's the twist. When you ask folks when Trump was president, were his policies helping or hurting? Look at that difference, 44% say helping, 31% say they hurt. So there you go, points on the economy, a lot of the are hurting my family, what people think about whether Trump administration policy help their family up by a 13 point margin. Trump really is, he is in such a unique political position where he was the president.

People could see him in that job. He wasn't that president. He was president not that long ago. Right. And so you have the direct contrast. And you have a, not the incumbent like we had with Biden, but you have a relative incumbency with the vice president. And that is why I just go back to that moment from The View, Crystal, where she said nothing in particular that I can think of. Yeah. Except, oh, sorry, I would have Liz Cheney or whatever. I would have a Republican in my cabinet. And I was just, I was like, what

an insane answer. And all of the data is bearing that out. So if Kamala loses, a lot of it will come down to not only the economy, but the inability to truly distinguish herself from Joe Biden, the presidency, the administration, and to draw a contrast with Donald Trump. I've been a little hesitant to opine on this because it matches my own political ideologies and beliefs a little bit too closely, right? Of like, oh, guess what? You stopped talking about price gouging and started talking about Liz and Dick Cheney, and your polls are moving in the wrong direction. Gee, who could have predicted? At the beginning of when she comes in, there were a few very clear things she needed to accomplish. Number one, she needed to separate herself

from Joe Biden. I mean, this has been beyond obvious from day one because he is very unpopular and people are very unhappy with how the economy was under him predominantly because of inflation. So she needed to figure out a way to separate from him on the economy specifically under him predominantly because of inflation. So she needed to figure out a way to separate from him on the economy specifically, but also in another area where he's very unpopular and it was where it's a big problem with the progressive base on Israel and Palestine. She has been totally unable, even at this point, to figure out how to message on that, how to actually create some distance, not just rhetorical distance, but actually create some distance. And people were open to her being different. You know,

we've seen polls in the past that said, oh, people actually think she's the change candidate because, you know, it's kind of a vibes thing. She looks and feels different. She's, you know, identity-wise, she's different. Stylistically, she's different. She's from a different part of the country, whatever. She's much, much younger, obviously, than either of these two men. But since she was unable to back up that vibe of change with any substance, here we are, right? Then you roll out some pretty good policies that are really popular, things like the price gouging thing I talked about, the housing policy, and they still come up. So I'm not gonna say she doesn't talk about them whatsoever. But the thing they've chosen to lean into the hardest is I'm going to have Republicans in my cabinet. Here I am. What's that?

Bipartisan. Yes. Here I am campaigning with Liz Cheney. Where's the campaigning with Bernie Sanders, who is profoundly more popular, especially among working class voters, than Liz Cheney is? So they decided to go in that direction. I think their theory was that the problem for Kamala is that people see her as too liberal, when really the biggest problem for Kamala is that people see her as having zero ideological commitments or core. And by doing this whole pivot to Liz Cheney thing, she's only underscored and exacerbated those problems. Now, I do want to say that there's a lot of assumptions that the polls are going to understate Trump again because they understated him in 2016 and they understated him in 2020. That is certainly possible, but it's not

definitive. 2022, they understated Democratic support. And we're going to talk about this in a little bit. And we've mentioned on the show before. Many of these pollsters have changed their methodology to try to guarantee, they're very risk averse, to try to guarantee they won't understate Trump's support this time. So they are using a different method than they did back in 2020 when you actually had the largest miss. So there's no guarantees about which way the polls understate or overstate the support. But what you can say for sure about these polls, since we had them up on the screen, three national polls, all three credible pollsters, that in each instance, the polls have moved away from Kamala Harris. And so if you see a, you know, a significant shift that is consistent

across pollsters where, you know, within that same poll using that same methodology, it is shifted. You have to feel that that is representing something real. The last thing, the last point I'll make before we dig into some more of the numbers here is some of these polls have her at like a two point margin. There is some indication that Democrats are closing the gap in terms of the disparity between the popular vote and electoral college vote, predominantly because Trump is winning more people in Florida, which is definitely going to be a red state, in New York, which is definitely going to be a blue state, in California, which is definitely going to be a blue state. So when you win more voters in those states that

are not swing states, it does not really matter in terms that it's stupid, but it doesn't really matter in terms of you becoming president of the United States. So it is possible that a two-point popular vote victory for Kamala Harris does amount to a narrow electoral college win, but it's, man, it's right on the bubble for her, assuming that these polls are accurate, which is a major assumption. Yeah, exactly. So look, everybody, I think the most important point that you just made was about movement within them. So if the assumptions were relatively the same and then you're moving away, that's not the best thing for you. And especially like you were just talking about with the popular vote,

I can go ahead and pull that up and just take a look at it. So yeah, right now, Nate Silver has her at a D victory with 2.8% of the popular vote. When things start to go a little bit underneath that or in a tie territory, that is when you get to that scenario. So it's not as big as it used to be. Let's also put A3, please, up on the screen because this was a really important point. Red alert for the Harris campaign. In the ABC poll out this morning, 59% of US adults say that the economy is getting worse, more than twice as many saying that it is getting better. Let's go to the next one because CBS News also reflected this, not only in the 51-48, but really also in the

battleground at 50-49. Remember here that the margin of error is some 2.3 points. This is also important because this is actually a likely voter poll. It says Donald Trump is one point closer to Kamala nationally than last month and the decisive battlegrounds remain effectively even. So even just puts you an error away from losing. And just generally, one of the very difficult things about this election, and it's actually in the sprint to election day,

there is not a single flagship tentpole moment that will happen in the next 22 days that is not controlled by the campaign. As in there will be no debate. There will be no, you know, there will be no like major event that some 60, 70 million people are going to watch. Like traditionally, actually right around now in mid-October is when that third debate usually happens on foreign policy. And then you have the sprint there. We're going to have some media-style events, town halls, etc., but none of those will ever have the same reach. So actually, one of the reasons why Kamala is uniquely vulnerable, in my opinion, is that the global system is very unstable right now with the Iran war situation.

And being tied to that, being tied to the status quo, and also just being tied to a general feeling of chaos in the world, if that were to really break through and take over the airwaves, that's very dangerous. She's also uniquely has a problem. Let's say that there is major movement in the stock market for reasons that have nothing to do with her or even with the national policy. It doesn't matter. People are really going to make up their minds on Election Day. So you and I were talking in 2016, a decent part of the electorate,

especially in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin, broke. I think it was like 14% of people made up their minds just in the last couple of days before the election. It's not going to be that high. It was 8% in 2020. Let's say it's 5%. I mean, 5% is the margin of victory, actually. So for a lot of

these people, you're really leaving yourself up to unique macro conditions of which you have no control whatsoever. And that is why this is really an issue where she's not even really banking on the economy anymore. It's just all abortion all the time if you look at all of the swing state polls. And I think she's in a very vulnerable place. I'm not saying she can't win. She absolutely could. But if she does, I think it'll be very, very narrow, especially compared to the Joe Biden victory or even Obama or somebody like 2012 and 2008 previously. So it really is tough. I think the landscape is definitely not good for her right now. Here's what I would say is that do I think she would be doing better if she leaned into,

you know, the top concern of voters, which is economics on which she has popular policies? You know, I think, you know, we had a whole debate about Trump's tariff policy, but her line about Trump's tax and really hammering home that his policy will raise prices for consumers. You know, do I think she would be doing better if she was hammering that every single day? Absolutely no doubt. But I also have to say, it's possible the campaign she's running will be enough because it was in 2022 and I didn't think it would be. This is effectively the campaign Democrats ran in 2022 where they thought, hey, we can get together this bipartisan anti-Trump coalition and

not really run on the economy at all. I mean, they did not talk about the economy really at all in 2022 or Biden in 2020, for that matter. He did not run on specific policy proposals with regard to the economy in the general election in 2020. So in 2022, the playbook was democracy, abortion, their extreme, And it was enough. It was enough to forestall a predicted red wave, what the polls were all showing. At that point, the economic numbers were far more dire than they are right now. I mean, that was really at the peak of inflation. You were just coming off of all of the unhappiness over COVID lockdowns and that whole fight. So the landscape in 2022 was actually a lot worse in a lot of ways for Democrats than it is now. And the, hey, abortion plus extremism message was sufficient to buck historical

trends to, you know, to win the Senate and to come very close, actually, in the House. So I can't say confidently that it won't work, that it won't be enough. It might. It may well be enough. You know, Democrats did well. They lost in 2016, obviously, even though they, you know, it's worth pointing out they did win the popular vote there as well. But they did well in 2018. They did well in 2020. They did well in 2022. So, you know, I think the the certitude that many have right now that Kamala Harris is 100 percent going to lose. I just you know, I just would have some humility about the predictions at this point because we've seen so many different iterations and polls be off in so many varied ways over the course of the past decade. Very important. And, you know, unlike, I see so much poll triumphalism out there. Yeah. I am amazed by it. I'm like, how many of you were saying red wave

back in 2022 and you just look like an idiot afterwards. I mean, you have to do some serious soul searching. You know, I've been burned 2016, 2000, what, 2016, 2020, and 2022. Those are like the three biggest polling errors I've seen just in my professional career. So I have no idea how you could do this for a living and then tell people with a straight face that you're going to have the exact same polling error as you did in 2016 and 2020. Absolutely stupid. You should unfollow anybody who is telling you that.

Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye.

Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame

one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them.

From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th.

Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott. And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way.

Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote-unquote drug thing is.

Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette. MMA fighter Liz Caramouch. What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to it. It makes it real.

It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the war on drugs podcast season two on the I heart radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. And to hear episodes one week early and ad free with exclusive content, subscribe to lava for good. Plus on Apple Podcasts.

Let's put this on the screen, too, because this is actually central to why I am so skeptical still and still remain in the 50-50 camp, whereas if I didn't, I would just be like, oh, I think Trump is going to win. Nate Silver talks here about how, quote, New York Times polls are betting on a political realignment. What he talks about specifically is that the 2020 electorate substantively is very different than the 2022 electorate, which dramatically swung independence towards Democrats. Key features of the 2022 midterm race. Yes, I know it is different, but it has some interesting things that we need to carry over. Number one, midterms had the same Republican advantage in terms of voter identification. More people identified as Republicans. However, didn't end up mattering.

Why? Because independence broke dramatically for the Democrats. Number two, you have the same white college-educated swing of these highly engaged voters who came out hard for the Democrats, donated a ton of money, had a ton of political enthusiasm at the same time that you saw the inklings of what happened in 2020 where you had Latino and black men specifically shift towards the Republicans. But it was not enough to put them over. So one of the reasons why the New York Times polls are so different than others is because they are not doing the same thing that many others are doing, which is trying to compose their polls as being exactly reflective of the 2020 electorate. That's why you see a lot of them in the way that they are and why the New York Times is so different, for example, on Florida. One of the reasons why I do kind of buy their thesis is Trump only won Florida by three points. What's he going to win it by this time? Minimum, in my opinion, six to

eight, right? He could win it by 14. They have him up by plus 13. So if anything, I would bet on a Republican wave there. That is very important because that tells us that the same voter characteristics of 2022 are going to try and carry over here. And the country has changed so much. I want everybody to try and to think about who you were in the year 2020. Sounds crazy, but you know, I was going to watch old videos of myself. It's a different person, literally, completely different. And even the way I talk and the way I look, everything, everybody's like that, especially in terms of your political evolution. Also in terms of selection, you know, Logan made such a great point in the last time that we talked to him.

And he was like, you know, 2020 is the last time, is one of the only elections, only since like when wars were involved, where the government had a direct impact in everybody's lives, from state, local, from vaccines to the bailouts. I mean, there's so much stuff that was going on. Now, things are a little bit different now, especially on the economic front, even in terms of people's expectations. And also Roe versus Wade was the political earthquake that changed things completely and it reshaped the entire way that a lot of – entire generation, really, especially of women, but college-educated men too, of the way they think about politics. So when I put all that together, I just can't bet on having the same electorate as last time around. It doesn't make any sense to me. So I am betting a little bit on this realignment. And I think come election day, we're going to see a major mistake by some

pollsters. Now, I'm not saying Kamala will win because the realignment can go Trump way too. You've got him winning, we're about to talk with Nina Turner, black voters by 78%. In the past, if Democrats didn't win black voters by, what is it, any more than 15, they're going to lose the entire national election. But they made up a lot of white voters. So you can still definitely get your way there. But I just want people to really caution and think about how much things have changed in the last four years and why you really shouldn't look to the previous one. I'm fairly persuaded by the Nate Cohn analysis, too, because it just makes more sense. And it also helps to explain

some of the variation between pollsters as well. But like the New York Times poll, so nationally they found it effectively tied Pennsylvania. They had Kamala with the four point lead. And basically Pennsylvania is the ballgame effectively. That's what both campaigns think. If you look at the likely tipping point state, I mean, just because it is such a swing state and because it is so evenly divided and because it has such a large number of electoral college votes ascribed to it, Pennsylvania is effectively the ballgame. And what they're saying is if you guys remember in the 2022 midterms, overall, the red wave did not materialize, but there were a few exceptions, Florida and New York in particular. And there may have been a few other states, but those were the two main ones that really shifted.

The red wave was there. I mean, what did DeSantis won by double digits in Florida? All kinds of swing district Democrats were swept down in the state of New York. In fact, if New York had performed for Democrats the way the rest of the country did, Democrats actually would have gained control of the House. It's just because of the red wave actually showed up there. And there are a lot of indications. If you look at the congressional polling, the congressional level polling, that you're shaping up to a similar electoral phenomena where New York, I think those swing district Democrats in New York are in

trouble. I think in Florida, Trump is gonna do very, very well and exceed his past vote. But some of the other states don't necessarily look as clearly in that direction. In the same year when Ron DeSantis wins Florida by double digits, John Fetterman won Pennsylvania by a very clear margin. And the governor of Pennsylvania, Shapiro, he won by double digits. John Fetterman won Pennsylvania by a very clear margin. And the governor of Pennsylvania, Shapiro, he won by double digits. So if you think about not only where everybody is from a political ideology perspective, but if you also just think literally of where people live now, there was a huge migration during and post-COVID that hadn't shown up yet in 2020. So even that makes things

really different. The last thing I'll say is Matt Iglesias made this point. I think it's one that's important to keep in mind in terms of the realities of the American electorate. It is still an overwhelmingly white electorate. So even if Republicans pick up 10 or 15 points among black voters, if Democrats improve two points with white voters, two points, then they still win. So that's why you should just have a lot of, you know, a lot of humility as you're looking at these results. It could really go either way still. It is still very close. I think it's a very closely divided country. And, you know, it's possible we get some new polling error that had not been foreseen

previously. And I do think it's important to keep in mind that a lot of these pollsters, because they're so terrified, understandably, like of getting it so wrong as they did in 2020. Remember, there were polls coming out of Wisconsin. I was like, Biden's going to win by 16 points or whatever. 17 points in the state of Wisconsin. Right. So they're terrified of that happening again. So effectively what they've done is to kludge away that ties their polls very closely to what the result was in 2020. So they won't get burned to the extent that they did last time. I think that does probably minimize the error, but that doesn't mean that they're getting it right here

either. Exactly right. Could underestimate Democrats as a lot of them did back in 2022. So we'll see. It's a fun, it's a fun mental game. It's going to be interesting. It's also, I mean, what I love about it is I just love the fact that America is still such a dynamic country. People can vote different four years ago, eight years ago, two years ago. It validates, you know, everyone is always like, oh, nothing matters. Everybody just votes exactly the same. It's just not true. You know, we're actually seeing a rise of more split ticket voters than ever before, which I think is a great thing, actually very healthy for the country. There are a ton of Mastriano Oz voters, sorry, of Oz Shapiro voters who are out there. There are a lot of people out there who will vote for Donald J. Trump for president and will vote for Ruben

Gallego for senator. There are a lot of people who will vote for Bob Casey and for Donald Trump in the state of Pennsylvania. And I honestly, I think that's good. I think it's a good thing no matter which way these things all go because that tells you you can't just take these people for granted. All these like vote our people, that was kind of the rule of politics from 2010 onwards. We're really seeing a new rise of a lot of split ticket voters. It makes it much harder to predict. But in general, people have to vote. People have to actually fight a little bit harder for your vote rather than assume, oh, these yokels are just going to come out and pull the lever for me.

We're about to talk to Nina Turner more about race and politics and what Obama had to say to black men in particular. But I also think it's very clear that like the democratic assumption that black people could just be pandered to based on, you know, their race and based on a civil rights act that passed, you know, before either of us were born, right? I'm not going to try to do the math in my head because that'll just be embarrassing. But, you know, that just playing to their racial identity would be sufficient, or that just playing to the racial identity of Latinos would be sufficient. And they were wrong about that. And, you know, frankly, this is something we've been talking about for a long time.

It's like, you know, to talk about black voters or the black community or the Latino community really erases that these are just human beings, individuals with a variety of concerns that aren't really different from whatever my concerns are, your concerns are, your concerns are. And so part of what we're seeing with this racial de-alignment is really a rejection of that very surface level, very hollow pandering style of identity politics. And we'll see if Democrats ever learn that lesson. All right, let's bring her in. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results.

Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long.

You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1,

Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th.

Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Glod. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This has kind of star-studded podcast. Yes, sir. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives.

This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne.

We have this misunderstanding of what this quote-unquote drug thing is. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette. MMA fighter Liz Karamush.

What we're doing now isn't working, and we need to change things. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad-free with exclusive content,

subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Very lucky to be joined this morning by the Honorable Nina Turner, former campaign co-chair for Bernie Sanders and founder of We Are Somebody. Great to see you, my friend. Good to see you. Good to be here with both of you. And I'm a little hoarse today, so apologies. Well, your insights are what we always look for, and those will be sparkling. As usual, I have no doubt. So Barack Obama hit the trail for Kamala Harris, and as part of that, he had a very direct message for black men voters in particular. Let's take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say. We have not yet seen the same kinds of energy and turnout in all quarters of our neighborhoods and communities as we saw when I was running. Now, I also want to say that that seems to be more pronounced with the brothers.

So if you don't mind, just for a second, I'm going to speak to y'all. Part of it makes me think that, well, you just aren't feeling the idea of having a woman as president. And you're coming up with other alternatives and other reasons for it. So now you're thinking about sitting out or even supporting somebody who has a history of denigrating you? Because you think that's a sign of strength? Because that's what being a man is? Putting women down? That's not acceptable.

So, Senator, what did you make of this commentary from the former president? I mean, Crystal, it makes my skin crawl every time I hear it. The president was out of line. And I am saying this as someone that was a delegate for President Barack Obama in the great state of Ohio twice, 2008 and also in 2012, who supported this president, even though after his eight years, I am very disappointed when I look at him from a critical eye in terms of what happened and did not happen for the Black community. But for President Obama to admonish, to publicly shame Black men, it is wrong. Because when we look at every single male demographic in this country,

when it comes to giving a woman an opportunity to be president, Black men are number one in that. In 2016, Secretary Hillary Clinton enjoyed over 80% of the black man's vote. Over 80%. You know how many votes she got from white men? 32%. So if President Obama wants to lecture men in general about the fact that they're all socialized in a sexist society, then he can do that. But to single out Black men, to do like a public shaming of Black men, and then to say as if they don't, they can make a choice. Like Black men have agency like any other voter. But to me, he made it seem like they have to, like they have an obligation to vote for Vice President Harris. And that is wrong. They have an obligation to vote their consciousness.

And if they want to vote the other way, even though some of us may not like it, it's their right to do like anybody else. He wouldn't dare try to shame white men, Asian men, Arab American. No other man would he come and step to like that. And I just want to, I remember when Reverend Jesse Jackson, he made this statement, you know, a while ago, but he said, President Obama talks down to black people. And President Obama proved that point. The numbers don't add up. And for him to come at black men like that, it just didn't make sense. And last point on this, it's really the antithesis of what Vice President Harris said, because she was recently interviewed by the Black Journalists Association, and they asked her a question.

And she, you know, just to sum up, paraphrase, she said, I shouldn't assume that Black men are going to vote for me. I have to earn their vote. And I'm paraphrasing her, but that was the right thing to say. And President Obama just came in and stepped on top of that. And I've talked to Black men. Black men have walked up to me. I'm getting DMs all over. Even this morning when I was at the gym, a young Black man walked up to me to say, thank you, Senator Turner, for standing up for us. The president has no idea how he is hurting Black men because when he speaks, people listen. In some circles, he's a deity, which I'm here to tell people he's not. He's fallible. But, you know, he has an extra burden that some other people do not have. And the shaming of Black men then allows other people who

do not have good instincts or good will towards the Black community at large to think that they can walk all over Black men, too. Black men don't deserve this. I'm glad you're saying that. And I think it's really important to just treat Black men or any men or whatever like anybody else. Let's put this up on the screen, you know, from the New York Times. Something that really struck out to me was, quote, just 63% of black voters and 46% of Hispanic voters said that, quote, keeps its promises. It describes the Democratic Party better than the Republicans. And then similarly, if you look at the economic outlook, only 26% of black voters say that the current economic conditions are good or excellent. So if you put those two things together and people are,

let's say, drifting in the direction of Donald Trump, it just makes them like anybody else who is disillusioned with the overall Democratic Party. So I want your reaction kind of to that specifically and about the outlook, especially on the moving away from the keeps its promises. When over half of these black voters are saying the Democratic Party does not keep its promises, well, then shaming them makes it arguably even more, you know, disgusting to lecture them. Absolutely. Absolutely. You're hitting the nail on the head. I just left the interview with Santita Jackson, Reverend Jackson's daughter, as a matter of fact, where one of the panelists

said that some of the backlash is because the Black community does not feel like President Obama delivered. But the stats that you put up really identifies that voters from all demographics feel a certain type of way in this moment. It is not a vibe and it's not joy. I mean, you can't just simply say the word joy when over 60% of workers in this country say that they're living paycheck to paycheck. You just can't say the word joy when the minimum wage has not been increased for well over a decade, when inflation is eating up any little gains that people have had, and when people have to work two and three jobs just to make ends meet. When I was growing up, an extra job was really an extra job. Now an extra job is a

necessity. So, Sagar, your point is that Black voters, and if we single out Black men, are really feeling the same pressures that any other voter is feeling. And as we criticize Republicans for calling Vice President Harris, you know, a DEI, which is wrong. She is not. When President Obama talks to Black men that way, and he emphasizes phenotype, race, and or ethnicity in that way, you make it seem like that. Yeah, that's true. And it's just, he is wrong. He's out of step. And you know what? People forget. Donald Trump was all the rage for the hip hop community.

And he was all the rage for the political community too. Let me not let them off the hook. Because former President Donald J. Trump got all the receipts, the donations that he has made, the pictures with these folks. So how dare you, President Obama, or anybody else, try to shame the Black community and Black men in particular? And you know what I think, Crystal and Sagar, if Vice President Harris loses, they setting up for Black men to take the fall. I think you're right. Yeah. And it's wrong. People want to know that you have a vision to provide provision and to lift them up.

They're sick and tired of hearing Donald Trump is the worst. If he is the worst, and I do believe that Donald Trump is a type of threat to democracy, but he's not the only threat to democracy. There are many things that threaten democracy, like not giving aid to the hurricane victims while we're sending billions of dollars overseas. That is a threat to democracy. Not having a full-fledged primary and locking people out. That is a threat to democracy. There's all kinds of threats to democracy.

He's one, but he's not the only one. And the Democrats are missing a perfect opportunity to show themselves to be different than the Republican Party. That's why those data points are showing that way. People are frustrated and they're tired of being lied to and played around with. This ain't a bot. This is people's, this is life and death for some people. Yeah, that's right. That's right. I'm just, I mean, you guys know how I feel. I love people and I want to see elected officials do the right thing by the people of this country. And it's just not happening. And black people feel the same way.

So you can't shame. You know what? If you got to shame people, and I'm saying this as somebody who has served in elected office, if you got to shame folks to get their vote, you've already lost. Yeah. I agree. No, that's such a great point. You know, Senator Turner, I was thinking this morning and there was another piece in The Times about this. You know, Democrats really had this very triumphalist view about how is the nation gotten more diverse?

They would just naturally pick up voters. And, you know, over time, as black and brown communities grew in the country and younger generations were more diverse, that effectively they could just sort of take them for granted and they would just march into their coalition. And they also really leaned into a politics that you and I have both criticized at times, which is a representation or identity only lens of progressivism that said, for example, that by electing the first Black president, that this would automatically benefit the entirety of the Black community.

With Latino voters, it was similar. If we just focus on immigration alone and a more welcoming of immigrants, then because you're Latino, that must be the key to your heart and the electoral path to victory. And the exact opposite has happened. I mean, you have, because you're Latino, that must be the key to your heart and, you know, the electoral path to victory. And the exact opposite has happened. I mean, you have Donald Trump out here using rhetoric that I don't think it's unfair to describe as Nazi-esque about vermin and inciting a, you know, campaign of hatred against Haitian immigrants in a town in your home state there and doing all of these things. And yet at the very same time,

he's actually gaining ground with these groups. So how do you explain and understand that trend? And what would your message to Democrats be about rather than shaming these voters, how they could actually adjust and win people back in these communities? That's it, Crystal. You said it.

Instead of shaming, prevent a vision that provides provision for the people. You're right. In Springfield, Ohio, the Haitian community, you know, that city has had to spend extra money to protect people because of what Senator J.D. Vance and President Donald J. Trump are propagating against the Haitian community. The level of vitriol that he has against immigrants are putting people's lives in danger. So yes, President Trump is a type of threat. There's no doubt about it. The Democratic Party, though, must stop focusing so

much on what Donald J. Trump is doing and what they're going to do. Donald J. Trump is predictable. President Trump is predictable. People already know him. They know what he's going to do. Donald J. Trump is predictable. President Trump is predictable. People already know him. They know what he's going to say. They know what he's going to do. So Democrats think that they, they think this is 2020 again, because that's pretty much how they won in 2020. You know, the scare tactics against President Trump.

That's not going to work. That dog is not going to hunt, as they say in the South. That dog is not going to hunt this time. It's not just telling people about Project 2025 and what a threat it is. It is. But Democrats, where's your Project 2025? Progressives already laid out a plan for you to have a Project 2025. It's called Medicare for All, where 63% of voters in the swing states that Democrats are going to need to win believe we should have Medicare for All. The war is a problem. The overwhelming majority

of Democrats believe that the weapons being given to Israel, even in the face of genocide, is a problem. Yet these people will not listen and answer to their own voters. So Crystal, my message to the Democratic Party would be focus on your message and your vision and why the voters of this country, Black Americans or otherwise, should vote for you. How would you do things differently? Are you going to not listen to the corporate to swing the class? Are you going to do something different? Or are you going to keep playing the same games over and over again? People are tired of being lied to. Crystal, that is the bottom line.

People's eyes are opening up and it doesn't matter if they are of color. It doesn't matter how they identify. The voters are suffering right now. And the failure of my party to recognize the suffering, they're covering it up and and they trying to ram down people's throats that everything is okay. But when I can't pay for my groceries, when I'm having a hard time putting gas in the tank, when I'm only getting $750 for a hurricane that blew down on me in North Carolina or Georgia or Florida, when folks who have the power right now are taking their time. See, the felon of the Democratic Party is this.

Donald J. Trump ain't in office right now. Democrats are. And they had two years of control of both chambers and the presidency and did nothing spectacular with the power that they had. People see that and they know that and they feel that. But instead of my party being honest about it, they want to try to shame people. So my message is stop listening to those people in the bubble and start listening to the people in

the streets. We'd be much better off. Yeah, no doubt about it. I wanted to get you quickly to weigh in on something else that's a very interesting development, which is that Democrats have now cut an ad against Dr. Jill Stein, who, of course, is the Green Party nominee. This is the first that they've really paid any attention to her. And I think it's very interesting and potentially very revealing. So let's take a look at that ad and I'll get your thoughts on the other side. Jill Stein, Green Party candidate for president. So why are Trump's close allies helping her?

Stein was key to Trump's 2016 wins in battleground states. She's not sorry she helped Trump win. That's why a vote for Stein is really a vote for Trump. Jill Stein, I like her very much. You know why? She takes 100% from them. I'm Kamala Harris, and I approve this message. So I don't know how much money is behind this ad,

so I don't know how widespread it is in circulation or how much it's just an internet ad, but to me, very noteworthy that they decided to cut this ad, and I think potentially very revealing of some concern, especially maybe in the state of Michigan, that people who are disgusted with the Biden-Harris enabling of a genocide in Gaza are looking for a candidate who opposes that. The polling data shows that, Crystal, Dr. Stein is winning in the Arab American community

in Michigan. That ad makes my skin crawl as well, because the people who want to vote for Dr. Jill Stein, we're assuming that if Dr. Stein was not on the ballot, that they would be voting for Democrats. And that's a wrong assumption. They're voting for Dr. Jill Stein or the Green Party because the Green Party puts up a different message, a different platform, and a different vision for this country. And yet it is very telling. They must be scared. And to conflate her voters saying that she is helping Donald J. Trump when nothing can be further from the truth.

Again, this is the United States of America, so I thought. I also thought that people have agency in their ability to vote. That's what I thought. But the Democrats buy this ad and how they also comported themselves in the primary by locking everybody out of the primary is showing that they themselves don't believe in small d democracy as they profess to. This is wrong. And it takes away the agency of voters. And it makes it seem like voters don't know what they want and what they're doing. You poor little voters. We're going to tell you what to do and how to vote. It's just it's wrong.

It's menacing what the Democratic Party is doing. And I'm really ashamed that my party was stooped to this level to say that anybody that that Jill that Dr. Jill Stein in the Green Party is in any way enabling President Donald J. Trump. If they want to talk about donations, let's talk about donations here. When I ran for Congress, a lot of Republicans jumped into the special election in Cleveland, Ohio, in a solidly Democratic district and donated to my opponent. Okay. So don't bring it here. When they talk about AIPAC money, AIPAC funds both Democrats and Republicans equally. So don't bring it here in terms of talking about Dr. Stein and Dr. Ware and the Green Party in this way. I believe in democracy. I am a Democrat, but I don't answer. I don't worship this party. Democracy is more important to me. And so them coming at Dr. Jill Stein shows, and the Green Party shows how weak they are right now. And it is also the antithesis of what they

say. So now they can't chastise the Republicans anymore about being a threat to democracy, because what the Democratic Party is doing right now is a threat to democracy. Voters want choice in the United States of America. We should not Voters want choice in the United States of America. We should not just have a duopoly in the United States of America. And if they got better ideas, they certainly raising more money. Why are you suing to get people like Dr. West off the ballot and suing to get people like Dr. Stein and Dr. Ware from the Green Party off the ballot? If my party is all that, they certainly getting all the money. They get all the airplay on the mainstream media. So what y'all scared of?

Yeah. That the American people will see different choices and then they will make a different choice. Couldn't agree more. We should compete straight up. Yeah. You know, obviously they don't feel that way. The funny thing, and Dr. Stein pointed this out on Twitter, is that while they're accusing her of like being supported by Republicans, Kamala Harris is running around campaigning with Liz Cheney and touting her support. Oh my God.

The Cheneys are like, okay. Thank you for that example. Honored to have Dick Cheney's endorsement campaigning with Senator Liz Cheney. But progressives like us? Oh no. No. Oh no. Haven't seen that.

They'd rather have Republicans. That's right. Than have progressives. That is very tough. They'd rather have Republicans than have progressives. That is very tough. We see how it's working out for them. The voice may be hoarse, but as always, the message comes through loud and clear. Senator Nina Turner, great to see you. Thank you.

Oh, my God. I appreciate you both so much and just love that you give opportunity for other voices that just don't walk a fine line. You both know I'm a lover of people. I'm a lover of justice. And I do believe that folks who have elected titles, they owe the people that they serve to really lift them. And God knows people in this country really do need this right now. Yeah.

So thank you both so much. Great to see you. Great to see you, Nina. You too. Bye-bye. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight-loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution.

But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed

system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them.

From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multibillion-dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1,

Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott. And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast.

We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players

all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote-unquote drug thing is. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real

from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette. MMA fighter Liz Karamush. What we're doing now isn't working and we need to change things. Stories matter and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new

episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad-free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Some interesting news out of a more recent interview between Donald Trump and the Nelk boys. He says he is going to be doing the Joe Rogan Experience podcast. Let's take a listen. You're doing a lot of podcasts recently. One that I would love to see you on is, I think

Joe Rogan has to have you on. Yeah. Yeah. Would you do that? Oh, sure I would. I think Joe, besides us, Joe's- I mean, I think i'm doing it yeah yeah so you are gonna do joe rogan yeah i am joe rogan's the best in the game for sure and i think yeah you know did joe become so well known because of the ufc and he does a great job with that right what was it that made joe the best during covid you know he was very outspoken on all the corruption going on during covid and i think that's personally when i started watching him a lot too and just he's an honest guy too right he is so i think good guy good guy and i think you guys together would just he's got a good voice that's important

you gotta love uh the nelt guys being like besides us he's the biggest come on bro i just can't get over that that's incredible uh is such, that is a very inflated picture. I guess I'll just put it that way. Yeah. Also a little bit interesting that he said he was like, well, in 2020 during COVID, that's when I became aware of him. I'm like, well, he was already the biggest podcast in the world in 2019, but okay. I mean, I do get the sense Trump really has no idea of this fear. Like he's, you know, people in his world are like, oh, you should do this one. You should do that one. But I don't feel like he's himself consuming. No, he doesn't consume it. Yeah. But here's cable news. Here's

at least what I respect about Trump and his campaign, at least around this. And especially with the candidate, because there's not enough politicians who can do this, where he'll have staff who are like or advisors, Dana White in particular, Dana's friends with the NELC guys. I'm assuming that's how a lot of this happened. But Dana will just be like, hey man, these are really big. And Trump is like, oh really? And he's like, okay. It's like one of those where he is fully aware that these are very influential and he understands that it has some major impact in terms of reaching people. The reason why I wanted to highlight this, if it's true, by the way, I have no inside knowledge or anything. I haven't asked Joe. He had previously said he didn't necessarily want to have Trump on, not out of anything personal, but because he didn't want

to have like the major political candidates. Maybe he's changed his mind. I know he's made some comments recently. He's like some things that I would like to ask Trump. He previously had Bernie Sanders on in the 2016 or sorry, in the 2020 campaign. But the reason why this is important is it really does highlight the strategies, both Trump and Harris, the callback to the Call Her Daddy appearance by Kamala Harris. Let's put this up there on the screen from Axios. Sarah Fisher, she's a really good media reporter, and she wrote this up, which is the podcast become politician magnets. And what she highlights is just the obvious trend to probably anyone who's watching this show, but hasn't yet sunk in for a lot of people, is just

how much podcasts and specifically shows like ours or a million others that are out there have become the dominant consumption of not just political content, but of all content, and that that is the best way to reach people who are under the age of 35. So if you look within here, what they talk about is not only the Call Her Daddy appearance that Kamala did, and by the way, there was some really, there were some stupid analyses done.

They were like, oh, look, Kamala Harris's Call Her Daddy appearance on YouTube wasn't that big. I'm like, guys, Call Her Daddy is predominantly an audio podcast. They get 10 million listeners, the second largest podcast in the world behind Rogan. I would not diminish the influence of that just from knowing the pop culture influence of itself, the amount of merch she sells and all the other stuff. But Trump, I mean, if you look at the other ones that he's done recently between All In, Lex Friedman, Theo Vaughn, Logan Paul.

This is all a major young male strategy. And Rogan has talked about this before. He said his audience is like 90-something percent men. I'm willing to bet that's probably the same case for Logan Paul, for Theo Vaughn, for both of those. I mean, these are comedy podcasts. They're very male-spaced. I don't think there's anything wrong with that, by the way. But it's just one of those where it shows you how, in particular, if you think about the podcast demo—and actually, UFC is a good analogy to this. The UFC is not only, like, is it—I wouldn't call it explicitly right-wing, but it's got a very right-wing audience.

But if you've ever been to a UFC fight, that's the multiracial male working class. If you want, I'm serious, you'll look around. He's got people from all over the world, black, white, Hispanic, WWE is very much the same way. They have a huge black Latino fan base as well. Like that is what he's going for. And that's why, you know, part of the whole like black, uh, like Latino conversation that frustrates me is that they don't ever focus in on the gender gap. So actually in that NBC poll that we led our show with, if you look at the crosstab, Trump's male numbers are the highest level since any candidate since Ronald Reagan in 1980. The female number is actually like relatively static. It's more about movement within the female demographic in terms of like white men or white females and, you know,

Latino females or whatever. But with men specifically across all races, especially with Latino and black men, that is where the most movement is happening. I mean, Trump, I would not put it past Trump to win nearly 50% of the Latino male vote in 2020, in 2024. That is crazy compared to where it was in 2016, where it was like roughly in the 30s. So that is how I see the podcast move more than anything, both and the choices of them, Call Her Daddy and then a lot of these male-dominated podcasts, like Nelk Boys, you know, for example. Who do you think is watching that? You know? Right. Yeah. No. And Rogan is like, you know, the crown jewel of the brosphere.

Oh, absolutely. So, and he's, it's interesting too, like if this is real, which like you said, it hasn't been confirmed and Lord knows Trump can make some shit up on the fly. You never know. Right. He did attack Joe not that long ago. Did he? Yeah. Remember we've covered it. He was like, I, he's like, Joe Rogan is a lightweight or something like that. He said that he gets booed. They're like, he's going to get booed at UFC. Yeah. Cause what Joe said something critical of him and he got in his feelings about it was something like that. Right. I think he said, I think Kamala is going to win or maybe he said she did a good job in the

debate was that what i don't know anyway so stupid but yeah but yeah i mean it's also interesting because joe previously did not want to interview trump because he feels like i'm a comedian like i don't know if i'm really the person to interview. I'm not a journalist, right? And there's, because this mode of politics has become more normalized, it's possible he feels more comfortable. Like, oh, well, if the friggin' Elk Boys can interview him, like, you know, I could probably do a better job than they. At least I'll ask him something that might be a little bit challenging.

But, you know, it's no secret also why both Kamala and Trump and any other politician loves this realm. Because Kamala knows she can go on with Alex Cooper and call her daddy and just, you know, not get asked a single difficult question. Trump knows damn well when he's sitting down with the Nelk boys that it's all going to be just like friendly banter and games. And so, you know, this is also part of a strategy to avoid really having any challenging questions. And I think it does pose some difficult ethical issues for people who are comedians, who are cultural figures like Alex Cooper, like Andrew Schultz or whatever. It's like, you know, it still remains that ethical quandary of, okay, I'm not well studied in Middle East, the Middle East and the history of the Middle East and

what's going on with this conflict. I'm not well studied in these areas. Do I feel like it's a responsible thing for me to, you know, to interview this incredibly powerful person who is vying for the highest office in the land? And I do think it's a, like, I think it's a tricky thing. I think it's a tricky thing. I think it's a difficult thing. But the more that it becomes normal and typical within a campaign, first of all, the more politicians are going to lean into it

because it's nothing but a win for them. They get to go on and get asked softball questions and have clips that go viral and reach a demographic that's important to them. And it also obviously serves the interests of those podcasters who get to have a big guest and all the incentives are in the opposite direction of asking difficult questions and actually, you know, challenging any of these political candidates. Yeah. The good news is I think, I mean, Joe's had previous skepticism about that, about having politicians on in the past.

And he actually can be a sleeper when he wants to be, like, in terms of undercutting or be like, what do you mean by that? And, like, really pressing. Some of his best, like, some of his best moments of deconstructing somebody really just come from, like, a very skeptical face and probing. So I would hope to see a little bit of that. But, look, it gets to you should not be going into that being, like, expecting, like, an NBC News, like, meet the press interview. That's not what they're going for, either side. It literally is not a job. So, yeah, I think it's a difficult question. But like you said, you don't want to end up just being like a propaganda piece. Like I think about this, you know, if I get asked to go on Fox News because I said something

critical of Democrats and they're like, just say that. Don't say the thing that, you know, is critical of Trump. And so, you know, I'm leery in those situations of just getting used to make like a propaganda point for their own purposes. And so I think you have to be concerned about that as well, even if you are just like, you know, a cultural phenomenon, like an Alex Cooper or whatever, because she did get just turned into like a propaganda piece. Well, I think she's kind of fine with it. I think she is, too. But I mean, you know, that's that's what you did, girl. Like, you did an infomercial for Kamala Harris.

And maybe you're good with that. That's fine. But, you know, I saw backlash even from her audience of, like, not super happy that that was the use of the platform. I don't disagree with you. Look, I think at this point he at least can see what the other people have either done right or wrong. What was the best strategy? I still think the Schultz strategy was the best one, just treat him like a normal guest. And if he were Trump's superpower in all interviews, he just talks, talks and talks. He likes to control the conversation, especially doesn't like like

follow-up questions or anything like that. I mean, look, this is his media training from years and years. He knows exactly what he's doing. So getting around that is going to be the most difficult thing. That can be a plus or minus in a three and a half, four hour podcast. So the time is actually probably the most important. One of the things that politicians do is they almost never agree to a three hour interview. They usually do like one hour. Trump can do a one hour interview all day long. I've interviewed Trump four times, almost every single time was nearly one hour. And, you know, trying to control that, he knows exactly like when to allow a follow up or when not to. And it can be, it can be quite difficult,

you know, to get in there. So time is going to be critical, asking like a follow-up question or any of that. Something I think Joe, and actually even Schultz and some of the other people like Lex and all those did, is they asked something which Trump is not necessarily used to. And that's whenever you would get interesting answers. So for example, like Lex, I remember being like, so how, you know, like, what do you think about bringing people together? And Trump was like, I'm not interested in that. Basically it was like, and he's like, well, the left, they're radical. Lex was like, yeah, but what about bringing people together? That's not even a question I would ask just because I would like to focus on policy. But I was like, you know, for a lot of people, the way they think about politics, and even if

the way they think about Trump per se, they're like, that's probably something I don't really like about Trump. And so for him, whenever he gets asked about that and his answer, it can be quite revealing. That's kind of what I would expect to come out from a Joe Rogan podcast with him. Because, you know, Rogan is always like, look, I'm not going to, you know, he's not a technical expert or something, but he tries to cut to the core of, like, what this person is all about. And I would be curious to see Trump in that spirit, especially whenever he can't necessarily rely on old tricks. And then, really, it's up to Joe on how he wants to direct the conversation. Yeah.

It would be interesting. And, I mean, Joe likes to play dumb sometimes. Yeah, but he's not. He's not. Joe is an intelligent, well-read person who has a lot of thoughts and ideas on a variety of subjects. I guess I would just say as politicians find this terrain to be more fruitful for them and increasingly lean into it over traditional media spaces, which makes all the sense in the world given the direction of media spaces, which makes all the sense in the world, given the direction of media spheres, it actually does put more of an onus on the podcaster to study up and think about what, you know, what issues actually impact people and ask them difficult questions, since they're apparently the only ones who are going to have the opportunity to. Now, the downside of that for them individually is that means they'll never get to get that

interview again. But, you know, is that really the end of the world? Because I think no matter who you are, whether you're a comedian or cultural figure or a singer or a lifestyle wellness guru or whatever the hell you're doing, right, you still have – if you accept that interview, you still have some responsibility to try to probe what are the actual positions of this individual. What is the way this individual actually thinks? You don't just get a get out of jail free pass because you are not a journalist. You're a sentient human being. You're obviously intelligent enough to have, you know, created this successful platform. And so I do think because they're leaning more into this strategy, it creates more of a responsibility on these podcasters to try to rise to the Well, that's the funny part. I remember him saying that in the past.

He's like, I don't want to do it because I don't want that responsibility. He was like, I never wanted to be in a position where I had to be like checking people's facts and making sure that what's saying somebody is not true. He's like, we used to just smoke weed and get drunk on this podcast and talk shit. And eventually it became like a platform. So I totally understand where he's coming from. And if he doesn't even want to do it, I get that too, especially in the position that he's in.

I mean, you think about it, you got CNN running articles about you and all this other stuff. Like that's a nightmare, especially from what, I mean, what he wants to do is do his show and he's got an amazing club and he just wants to go there every night and hang out with his friends.

I totally sympathize with that. So we'll see. I'm curious, as you said, Trump could just be talking. He could be like mouthing off for what he wants. And at this point, he's done a decent number of these Rogan's Fear type interviews. So we'll see if it happens. Yeah. I also want to see the time thing.

That's actually probably the most important. Right. How long was Bernie Sanders? Does he give him the full three hours or at least two and a half? It's got to be long. Yeah. I think Bernie, I want to say Bernie was like two and a half, that's my guess. It was, it was actually 107. Wow, really? That's very short. That is short.

Yeah, that's too short. Yeah. I guess the last thing I'll say is this has been a very concerted strategy, especially from the Trump campaign. Kamala has done some of these things, but this has been a more concerted strategy from the Trump campaign. And it really is targeted at young men, which are some of the least frequent voters. Literally. So, you know, they're betting a lot on turning out a group of voters. And they're betting more on this strategy than they are like a traditional field strategy in that, you know, typical campaign.

Like we're going to have offices all over the state and we're going to go and knock on your door and whatever. They're leaning more into this. In some ways they have to because they don't have nearly as much money as the Harris campaign does. But also I think it is a tactical belief that this is more effective at this point than that traditional door knocking campaign. And there may be something to that. They may be correct about that, and they certainly see these as friendly spaces with people who are potentially open to him. So we're going to find out if those infrequent male voters, young male voters, do in fact turn out for him on Election Day because he's betting a lot on that. Yeah, it's very much a dude's rock campaign, and I'm curious to see if it works. Camp Shane, one of America's longest running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. But there were some dark truths behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie.

Enter Camp Shame, an eight-part series examining the rise and fall of Camp Shane and the culture that fueled its decades-long success. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. A company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott.

And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir. Last year, a lot of the problems of the drug war. This year, a lot of the biggest names in music and sports. This kind of starts that a little bit, man. We met them at their homes. We met them at their recording studios. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them.

It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.