Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 10/14/25: Ghislaine Secret Meeting, Kamala Blames Voters For Loss, Foreign Leader Hot Mic Trump Business Offer

Episode Date: October 14, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss Ghislaine secret meeting, Kamala blames voters for 2024 loss, foreign leader pushes Trump business deal on hot mic. Ken Vogel: https://www.harpercollins.com/products/devils-advocates-kenneth-p-vogel?variant=43110856097826 Trita Parsi: https://x.com/tparsi    To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Samihante, it's Anna Ortiz. And I'm Mark and Delicado. You might know us as Hilda and Justin from Ugly Betty. Welcome to our new podcast, Viva Betty. Yay! We're re-watching the series from start to finish and getting into all the fashions, the drama,

and the behind-the-scenes moments that you've never heard before. But you were still bartending? I didn't know that. The barback is like, is that you? And it's a commercial for Betty. And I was like, I quit. I quit. Listen to Viva Betty on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

The Internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us. I'm Bridget Todd, host of the Tech and Culture Podcasts, there are no girls on the Internet. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Anil Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the Internet. I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life. But it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the internet.

Listen to There Are No Girls on the Internet on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, guys, it's Stephanie Beatriz. And Melissa Fumero, and this is more better. We are jumping right in and ready to hear from you. Your thoughts, your questions, your feelings about socks with sandals. And we're ready to share some possibly questionable advice and hot takes. God, that sucks so hard though. I'm so sorry.

Can you out petty them? Can you match their pettiness for funsies? Yeah. All the things. Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to more better on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and,

But what they find is not what they expected. Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years. Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown Stang on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts.

Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that. information about women's health and midlife directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life, but even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything. I never used to forget things.

They're concerned that, one, they have dementia, and the other one is, do I have ADHD? There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids, to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now.

What's up, everybody? This is Snacks from the Trapner's podcast, and we're bringing you the horror every week all October long. Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill. Me and Tony Bringing Back Fire Team on Left for Dead

two, and we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also, in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movie, and figure out why black people always got to die further. The umbral reliquary invites any and all fooling, brave enough,

to peruse its many curiosities, but take heed. All sales are final. Weekly horror side quest written and narrated by yours truly, with a full episode read and a commentary special. And we will Cap it off with horror movie battle royale.

Jason versus Freddie. Michael Myers versus the 80 thing with the little tongue muster. October, we're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Trabner's podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member

today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Turning now to my hometown, Brian, Texas, literally where I was born. But for our purposes, let's put this up here on the screen. It is the scene of a true mystery where Galane Maxwell is currently being kept. in a federal prison camp despite Bureau of Prisons regulations that say sex offenders shouldn't be

at minimum security prisons. And in this investigation from the Wall Street Journal, they describe lockdowns in a mysterious meeting. A quiet Texas prison adapts to life with Galane Maxwell. And they say that some two months ago in mid-August, hundreds of inmates at a minimum security prison in Bryan were locked down during their usual time for strolling the grassy campus and visiting with family and friends, all but one, Galane Maxwell. While her fellow inmates were confined to their dormitories after breakfast, Maxwell met with several visitors in the federal prison camp chapel. Less than three weeks earlier, the Justice Department had moved her to the federal prison

cramp Brian from that higher security facility in Tallahassee. That interview followed, that transfer was followed with an interview with the Justice Department senior official Todd Blanche, during that whole transcript that they released from the Department of Justice, where we learned absolutely nothing, and she actually told multiple verifiable falsehoods. They say her unexpected arrival has upset the camps usually relaxed atmosphere, leading to more frequent lockdowns, the addition of armed guards, current and former inmates said in interviews that she appeared to receive, quote, unusually favorable treatment at times, sparking resentment in other inmates. Some prisoners

heard that the lockdown was needed to accommodate important visitors, including some, including her lawyers, but what other important visitors were there? And, you know, one inmate recalled seeing her return to the dormitory that day with a smile on her face. When they asked her about the meeting, she said it went really well, but shared no other information. So what was so important to lock down the entire prison

so that she could have a meeting in club? All right, this is club fed. They're supposed to be able to just do whatever they want. lockdowns are apparently very rare in these facilities because people aren't stabbing and killing each other. Those people are over at maximum security prison. So what's going on? Well, you get a whole lockdown. She has this meeting with an important figure. She's got a smile on her face. This is around the same time of the interview. What's happening? Yeah. We don't know. We don't know anything. And remember, this is someone who should not be in this particular prison to begin with. And there's been

upset among the other inmates there and other sex offenders around the country who were like, hey, we aren't supposed to get these perks. So just her being in that facility is already preferential treatment. Then what this article also documents

is that she's allowed to go and shower by herself after all the, she's got her own room, whereas most of the inmates have to share. She gets, you know, all sorts of special perks. They've stationed additional officers around the facility. she's gotten special treatment.

Why? Why? And then you've got this meeting where, you know, they have locked down the entire facility. So none of the other inmates who normally during that time would be able to, you know, walk around the grounds. This was also the time when they can normally have visitors and visit with family and friends. That all stops so that Galane can have her special little meeting.

Like, what the hell is going on here? They also mention that there's been an absolute ban on any of the other prisoners talking to the press. And there have been punishments meted out because of them talking to reporters. They've been transferred out, you know, it's considered a big perk to be at this facility. So there was one instance that they documented where this individual talked to the press. And then they were moved out of this facility to a higher security prison. So, you know, as a consequence, it appears as punishment for daring to speak to the press about Galane's treatment and what life is like on the inside.

There was also another incident that they mentioned here, which was. sort of sketchy where there were gunshots right near the facility. And again, you know, they came in in the middle of the night and, you know, they secured Galane first and foremost. And then what the official story was was, oh, this was some sort of shots fired like away from the facility, like in the direction away from the facility, had some sort of gang activity. There were no injuries reported. And inmates were very skeptical of that story that the official story was actually what happened there. So just really. insightful about the way she's getting all of this incredible preferential treatment. Again, why?

This is a convicted sex offender. Why is she getting all this special treatment? What is going on there? Why does the government want to coddle this lady? Great question that, you know, I think people can, can ponder. And then the specifics of this secret meeting and whatever the hell went down there. Nobody knows. That's all, like, as you said, there's some very sketchy stuff. She has special protection. She apparently is, you know, guests being ordered to lock down, returning to their bungs. She gets treatment, extra security. You have people who in the facility who spoke to Wall Street Journal reporters getting transferred within an hour of the phone call, a single hour of phone call to the Wall Street Journal, and they got transferred to a higher security facility.

For what? For talking to a reporter about the special treatment that Galane Maxwell? So they are going to extraordinary lengths right now to make her life comfort. to get her everything that she needs. She gets to pick and choose who her, you know, the people in her room are. I mean, this is not normal for anybody who's in one of these prisons, even though it's club fed, like it's still prison or it's supposed to be. Right.

And, man, this is as good as it gets. At the same time, we've got CBS News out with a new, honestly, I want to give them credit. They've been late to it, but give them credit. They showed up big time on the suicide investigation of Epstein's cell. I know you guys talked about it a little bit, but they talked specific. about how the crime scene was not preserved. There was no proper investigation into this in the way that a murder or suicide investigation should be conducted. So here's Scott McFarland. He's a journalist over there. Let's take a listen. CBS News has spent years investigating what happened

in that cell where Epstein died in New York in 2019. And a series of 90 photos from the scene obtained by 16 minutes in CBS News do raise questions about the initial handling of the scene and the initial wave of the response. The photos show, at least they indicate, items having been moved around. Some of the items from the cell, the mattress, Jeffrey Epstein's body, had been moved before FBI investigators were able to respond.

A former NYPD detective, a private investigator who spoke with CBS News, says, that does complicate things, that it appears this was handled as if it were a suicide scene and not necessarily a possible crime scene or murder scene. Also noted, lack of evidence markers in the photos. The former NYPD detective said the, not the clumsiness, but the lack of thoroughness with the photo taking itself is an issue, that there seems to be a failure to follow some basic or

traditional forensic tests and exams. All of that can complicate an investigation and raise questions. Our investigation does not contradict the official determination of suicide, but it does seem that there were some insufficiencies through the process. And all of that means that now we are six years later, six years after the fact, it's going to add potential fuel as there's more considerations of broadening the investigation of Epstein case files, releasing more documents, and as Maxwell is poised to sit down with congressional investigators soon. Props to Scott. good job with that report. They continue not to drop it. And look, there's still a lot more out there. And I know it's frustrating drip, drip, drip, drip, but I remain hopeful that we'll get there eventually.

Let's get to Kamala, shall we? Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health and Gynecology at the Adria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's Health and midlife directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life, but even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything.

I never used to forget things. They're concerned that, one, they have dementia, and the other one is, do I have ADHD? There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids, to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life. Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you're listening now. What's up, everybody? This is Snacks from the Trapner's podcast, and we're bringing you the horror every week all October long. Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my greatest fear-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Sivead Hill, me and Tony

bringing back fire team on Left for Dead two, and we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also, in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movie, and figure out why black people always got to die further. The umbral reliquary invites any and all

fooling, brave enough, to peruse its many curiosities, but take heed, all sales are final. Weekly horror side quest written and narrated by yours truly, with a full episode read and a commentary special. And we will

cap it off with horror movie battle royale. Jason versus Freddie. Michael Myers versus the 80 thing with the little tongue muster. October, we're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Travener's podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars worth of heroin into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go.

shotguns and rifles and you name it. But what they find is not what they expected. Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years. Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray.

Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown Sting on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. Failed presidential candidate, Kamala Harris, has been on her book tour, and we got a couple of, I guess we'll call them highlights for you. She had a guest appearance from Hillary Clinton. Also took some protesters on. Let's go ahead and take a listen. You debated him once. He wouldn't debate you again. We beat him four times. Do you think we're the reason he is so unhinged today?

Oh. They basically say to me, we didn't tell you, but she's been talking about people eating cats and dogs. And I was like, what? And they said, we think we need to tell you because his propensity is to say the last thing he heard. And sure enough, on the debate stage, he said it. Your legacy is genocide.

You know what? I am not president of the United States. You know, I'm not president of the White House and drive me and say, I'm not president. And if you want to talk about legacy, let's talk about the legacy of mass deportation, deportation. Of people not voting and Donald Trump. Mass deportations and people not voting. I mean, I guess we'll start with Hillary, you know, the cope of we beat him four times in debate. Well, you did such a great job. Why didn't neither are y'all end up president?

Seeing these two ladies who were able to apparently lose to Trump. Yeah, I don't know. I'm curious for your review. Because this is a crystallizing thing amongst the elite Democrats. I don't know why. So her response there, she's got two parts of her response. Number one, she says, well, I'm not president. Go talk to the guy who is.

As if there haven't been protests of the Trump administration for their pro-genocide policy. I mean, he was confronted by protesters just down the street. here when he was eating dinner, actually in a pretty, pretty wild failure of the Secret Service, frankly, and how close these protesters were able to get. But there's this mythology that as soon as Trump came into office, people stopped caring about Palestine. And that's just insane. I mean, I will say, I think for a variety of reasons, the protests were not as heightened as they were, you know, while she and Biden were in office. I think, number one, because there was a sense, like, these are people that we may be able to actually influence, were part of their theoretical coalition.

Number two, you have a level of fatigue. And number three, this government has been very authoritarian and cracking down on protesters and increasing the costs of actually going out there and exercising your First Amendment rights. So that's number one, this fiction and this lie and this insinuation that low-key people, if you were pro-Palestine, you actually wanted Donald Trump to win. And then you're happy with the mass deportations, which she name checks here, that she's like blaming them for. number like the other piece here that just of course discussed me and drives me absolutely

baddie is blaming the voters who didn't vote for her who had and and those specifically who had a moral objection and a red line around a literal genocide and could not bring themselves to vote for someone who was actively supporting and complicit in and refused to separate herself from, even in the smallest level, from the execution of that genocide. She's lame me them rather than taking any responsibility for the active choices she herself made, including, I mean, just there were such small things that people were asking for, just let someone whose Palestinian-American speak at the DNC, even that was a bridge too far. A glaring problem in her campaign, very clear from the beginning, was Joe Biden's unpopular.

How are you going to separate yourself? This was the obvious place to do it. And she never, ever did it. So for her, Hillary did her own version of this after she lost. Like, it's always someone else's fault. It's always the voters' fault. The voters are too stupid or make the wrong choices or immoral. It's never them.

They never take responsibility for themselves. And last thing, I don't get shared you to weigh. And like, I'm not, like, I think Kamala is dealt a very difficult hand here, right? Coming in late and saddled with the unpopular president. and, you know, all of those things, like cost of living being very high. I think it was very difficult for even a great candidate to come into that situation. So I'm not saying everything that happened was on her shoulders, but there is no doubt that she made some critical errors, one of them being that she refused to separate

herself from an ongoing genocide and show even a shred of moral principle around that. So that's my thoughts on this. Yeah. Well, let's really break it down. She, you said it's not entirely her fault. And that's true. It is almost mostly Joe Biden's fault. Let's let's start with that. He is the chief villain. As Darrell Cooper said, you know, the chief villain of the 2024 election, he is a chief villain. He's one of the great narcissists in American history. However, however, and this is where it starts to fall on Kamala. Nobody forced you to go on the view and say, nobody forced you to listen to Biden. He was a dead, he literally, literally, maybe, functionally, like dead president, right, at that time.

No one forced you to go on the view and listen to his phone call about no daylight kid. All you had to say is there's a lot of things I would do different from Joe Biden to actually inject some energy. Nobody forced you to, you know, repeatedly not distance yourself from the administration. Nobody forced you to listen to him from the point of which you are the candidate. But this also gets to me about the weakness of the process. And in a way, maybe one of her great errors was immediately accepting the nomination. and not at least trying to make it seem as if people could jump in

and that there would be some process because, you know, if we think back to it, do you want to be handed something or do you want to earn it? Like, you know, there's a lot of theory behind that about the satisfaction and the, you know, the confidence that you get in something. I mean, I could say, you know,

even from us starting this business, right? Like, I feel confident in some of my judgment that I would not have previously in the past when we were just W-2 employees because you took a bet and it worked out and through your own work and all of that, they're bumpy and stuff along the way, but you could prove your decision-making

and it kind of gives you a confidence in your ability to try and sell something to do something and to take risk. She never had that because she was handed it. I think she shouldn't have done that. But on the Gaza thing specifically, and this gets to the voter, I just can't be in a situation

where I blame the voters. Now we can talk to the voters, and I will say, if you voted for Trump because you were anti, I mean, against Israel, like, you're honestly a fucking idiot. And I think I said that at the time. I was like, do you remember, I'm pretty sure I did that model.

I was like, listen, if you're pro, if you're one issue is Israel, I was like, you should vote for Kamala. You honestly should. Right. You would honestly be done. People who vote over Trump. She's saying people who just didn't vote. Okay. Well, see, I'm not in that because if that was your number one issue, you kind of made the right call.

Because at the end of the day, both would have probably kept the war going. To be honest, I'm not sure we get this ceasefire under a Kamala administration because, you know, I never saw the backbone and all of that. Behind them. They probably would have been more rhetorical about UN and all that, but like, I don't, I'm not so sure we end up here without some somebody like Trump just going full retard and be like, hey, actually, it's over. I never saw Kamala or Biden with that ability. Maybe, you know, it's unfalsifiable at this point. But the point really gets to this whole you didn't vote. Let's go back to Hillary. We cover this extensively at the time. If the same number of black people vote in 2016 that voted in 2008 and 2012, Hillary wins the election. And what did the Democrats say? instead of, why didn't these people come out to vote? It was, how dare you not come out to vote? It's your fault. Well, why? Let's do some analysis. Why do they not come out to vote? They thought by voting for Obama for twice that their lives would get a lot better, and they didn't. And they didn't think that Hillary would do much about it. Whose fault is that? To me, it's Hillary's fault. For Kamala, it's the same thing. I mean, if you look at some of the stats, if you drive out, let's say you're talking about Israel, if you drive out young people, she lost young men. Remember that? I mean, that's a huge deal. Gen Z, a lot of new voters, they swung to Trump. That is a systematic failure of the Democratic Party and of Kamala Harris, despite all the coconut memes and all this other bullshit turned out to be fake.

So I just, you know, we can't absolve these people of responsibility. And like you said about go protest Trump. It's like, first of all, anyone who's like rabidly pro-Palestine is not pro-Trump at this point. It doesn't exist. So it's like calling out a coalition, which is entirely fake. And then also to put this whole legacy of if you think it's so bad, well, I mean, you also didn't give them the path or at the very least make a convincing argument because the argument and all of this, you know, we debated it here a million times about leading up to Trump about what the legacy of all that would look like. I think you were a lot more clear eye than a lot of other shit heads on the left, frankly, who are like, oh, it'll be all that bad. I'm like, no, from your perspective, it's going to be fucking hell.

Let's be honest. And it is from their perspective, which is kind of what a lot of people in the right. voted for. But that's my point, though, is that there was an entire ecosystem of people who wanted to convince them that Trump was going to be the one who was going to be anti-Israel or pro-Palestine or whatever. And I think those people can be condemned. But to say not voting, like at least from a pro-Palestine perspective, to say not voting should be condemned is preposterous. It's just absolutely absolves all the responsibilities and the systematic failures going back like 30 years inside the Democratic Party. So I need to see somebody grapple with that. And I don't see a single person.

That's why I don't get about the Democrats. I know. You're so pathetic and weak. You're nothing. Well, and here's the thing is like a couple things on that. There is such a deep psychological helplessness to these people. Yeah. Like nothing's ever in their control. Nothing's ever in their power. And the upside of that is if nothing's ever in your control or in your power, then nothing's ever your fault. And so, you know, there's always. you know, from the Obama administration, all the excuses about why the Affordable Care Act really kind of sucks, you know, I mean, the whole fight over, I talked to Corbin Trent yesterday, he used to work with AOC and he was saying, we really need to internalize that the whole

fight that Democrats are picking over the shutdown is like, we can't let normal Obamacare come back. Like, we have to keep these subsidies going because normal Obamacare is so insanely unaffordable. Like, it is unacceptable. That's the fight that they think. So all sorts of excuses around why that was the best thing they couldn't get a public option. It wasn't possible. And the Biden administration, all kinds of excuses. Oh, we can't get minimum wage, the parliamentary and this and that. Like, there's always some either villain within the Democratic Party or the Republicans, even when they're out of power and the opposition.

They're just so powerful. Can't possibly overcome them. And there's all this learned helplessness. And I think it, I genuinely think that the reason why they choose to take that. mental tactic of pretending like everything is out of their control and out of their hands, even when, you know, you're the president of the United States and you control the Senate or the house or whatever, it's because they don't want to have any responsibility for their actions. And this is, you know, to go even one layer deeper, it's kind of a core ideology of neoliberalism,

actually, of which both parties have been, you know, were very involved with supporting. Because what neoliberalism is at bottom is outsourcing your thinking to the markets. So you never have to make a decision. It's just, oh, well, the markets did their thing, and this is what they want. And that's just how it went. So I think it's very deeply ingrained in the psychology. But I've also been thinking about the other thing that you just said, soccer, which is part of why Democrats have even in Trump 2.0, now that they're, you know, they aren't the ones who are sending the bombs directly and many of them are still voting for it. But why they've had such a hard time separating from Israel and calling it a genocide.

saying this is unacceptable and we have to stop it and forcefully resisting it is because they know that they were complicit and they don't want to take responsibility for that. They don't want to have to go back and say, you know what, we fucked up. And you guys, like, you guys who were protesting us, you were actually right. You were correct. That, I think, would go so far. I actually think it would be so, like, powerful for people to see genuine accountability, genuine reckoning with what they were complicit in.

I think it would do so much to see that. And they're just thoroughly incapable of acknowledging that there was any error there. And so now you have a situation where, you know, we're in a ceasefire. We'll see whether it lasts or not. A lot of questions about that. There was, you know, hostage exchange, which all the Israeli hostages are now released. Palestinians got 2,000 of their hostages back from the Israelis. And you've missed your moment, really, to be able to have that reckoning.

You've missed your moment to be able to really take a more. high ground over, you know, what the Trump administration has done here. Maybe it would have been concluded more quickly under Kamala. Maybe it would have been, maybe there wouldn't have had the complete starvation. We know the Biden administration did push and, you know, maintain some higher level of aid than was maintained under the Trump administration where he didn't have the total and complete starvation. We'll never know. And you never took the time. You, Kamala Harris and, you know, others in the Democratic Party, but specifically you never came out and said, I object to, this thing that the Trump administration is doing

on Gaza. Here's what I, if I was president, here's what I would have done differently. You never did that. So we have nothing to go on that you would have been different or better in any way. Yeah. And, you know, if you want perfect proof of all this, Obama and Mark Marin from Mark

Marin's last podcast, let's take a listen. You know, as you get older, Michelle and I joke about this, no matter how much you want to pretend otherwise, you're starting to get a little out of touch. You're not completely, you know, plugged into the zeitguess. And it happens naturally. It just happens. Yeah. I mean, look, I don't, my brain doesn't register TikTok. Yeah, mine either. The same way that it does my 16-year-old

niece. Right. Right. You got to get a guy to do it for you. It's not just the, the, the, the, the technology itself, it's that I'm not plugged in. I'm not relating to the cultural, you know, stream in the same way that somebody who's 20 or 25 or even 35 is. But the brains have been, you know, broken, you know, through exploiting grievance and anger. And, you know, in talking about the left that, the fact that so many decided to not vote at a protest because they didn't feel that the, you know, the situation in Israel, the ethnic cleansing of Gaza and whatnot was not going to be dealt with by Kamala or however that goes. So you get this protest vote of people not willing to make a compromise for what

you used to talk about is the incremental progress. Yeah. The incremental progress. I got an email recently I said, you seem very worried about the destruction of norms, yet you always talk about how during that time period, you talked about how those norms were bad. And that's why, because I lived through this shit, George W. Bush and Obama, who lectured me about, oh, the norms of the whole. Meanwhile, what was happening? The entire apparatus of American life collapsed around us. We sacrificed our empire abroad for what? For Iraq? We sacrificed our economy in 2008 for the bankers. And through that entire time, we kept giving them, we said, please, save us. We're going to vote for you.

They said, oh, don't worry. We're going to pass the Affordable Care Act. I love your point. We can't let Obamacare return to normal Obamacare because that will fuck people over. What does that tell you about Obama? You know, we voted for the homeowners. What happened? We voted for prosecution.

What happened? We voted for more regulation. We got fucking Dodd-Frank and now look at our economy right now. Same with getting out of Iraq. So their high-minded liberalism or their high-minded conservatism destroyed this country. And that's why I'm like, as bad, yes, I've become an acceleration, as scary and all these things may seem, I don't know. For me, I still have some faith that will turn on the other side because I live 25 years under their regime. I was born under Bill Clinton.

Consider the progress of the United States economy and of U.S. foreign policy since that time that I was born. in 1992. How can you still worship at the altar of these norms? You cannot. And so we can argue about what the norms and new norms and all that

should be, but I cannot live in a world where I have this motherfucker lecturing at me with his chin up again about how fine things are and about the better angels of our nature

while shit just continues to get worse every single year. That is the thing that is very jarring. I listen to this whole conversation and I wanted to pull that TikTok point he made about how he's out of touch

because I thought it was very, I mean, it was one of the more honest parts of the podcast. He's like, I don't really get it today. Like, I'm kind of on a touch. So that's why I don't say that much about politics because I don't really, I'm not really in touch with what people are thinking anymore. And I was like, wow, that's actually interesting

level of self-awareness. But I also want to say, I think being out of touch, like that's a choice, you know? Like, you could go, it's not like TikTok is not that hard to understand. You could go on TikTok. You would understand. I'm not on TikTok, and I fully am understanding

what's going on. It's not. Yeah. And also, you know, you choose who you interact with. Like, you surrounded yourself with a bunch of, like, celebrities and rich people. And so, yeah, you're going to be on a touch. I mean, that is a choice that you have made. So that was one piece.

And then the other part, it's very jarring to see him still doing like a 2012 style of politics while the world is burning around you. You know, you said his vibe is like, oh, everything's fine. And we'll, you know, we'll all conference. And we'll take the high road when they take the low road. It's like that shit is so far. We are so far past that. So yeah, it felt like listening to him talk, it really did feel like a relic from another era. And I know we joke about like, let's say they got rid of term limits and you get the Trump

Obama matchup. And, you know, we've always said, oh, like Obama would crush him. And I think Obama would have beat him in 2016. I'm not so sure anymore because watching that, he just felt so, so far. removed from the actual energy and the concern that people have. You know, this thing that he's always been accused of, which has always been true of sort of like standing aloof and observing society from afar and not really feeling like he has a stake in it.

That was one thing in 2012. It's another one right now. Like when the shit is hitting the fan and, you know, autistic kids are being stolen from their parents on the streets of Chicago and apartment building raided and we just oversaw genocide, like in the moment of right now to do your just remove, I'm above it all, and I'm just going to tell you from on high where things have gone astray, especially when you are a significant part of the reason that things went on this track because you promised a hopeful, a different politics, and you didn't deliver for people in the way that people thought that you would.

Yeah, I don't know how that would go over with the American people at this point. I'm not so Sure. Look, that was from a left perspective, from the right? It's like, who flooded this country, Obama? You, all right? You're the one who chose all, like, basically cultural politics. He is literally the everything that went wrong. He was elected on a class anti-war message, and he turned it to become the cultural war president. That's who he was. That's ultimately his only real legacy is like DACA, the Affordable Care Act. Oh, fantastic little contribution that you did there. And the woke era. It began under him in 2014. It was a disaster. Now, again, there's a lot of blame and all that stuff to go around. But you did not fulfill those core promises. And so the latter stage of your administration that set up the Trump victory is ultimate, like those problems were not solved under your administration. You could have headed off a lot of this. And so I think you're right. I don't think he would beat Trump today. In 2024, I don't think there's a chance that he could actually come. Because Trump is a creature of the moment. Exactly. And you're not. He's a monster, in my opinion, monster of the

moment, but he is, he is a creature of the moment. And Obama is a relic of the past. Obama is a symptom and a relic of a time when we still had hope. If you're young, you actually don't remember that. You know, I was talking to a journalism class recently. These kids are like 19, right? They didn't know what the Mueller investigation was, Crystal. They literally didn't even remember Mueller. So that was eight years ago. Wow. So imagine trying to talk to them about Obama in 2008, literally ancient history. They have no memory of a time when we still had actual faith in our political institutions. And it's because of him that I don't personally. Between Bush and him, I said, this shit is rigged. It is fake. There is nothing redeeming left inside of these people, the Washington establishment

or any of that. Now, yeah, I think there's a lot of criticism and stuff to go around. But you really have to remember how much faith everybody put in withdrawing from Iraq and 2008 and how things would go to where we ended up in, what is it, January of 2017, when Obama left office. If you didn't live through that, you can't understand how we actually got to where we are right now. Well, and this is, again, where the neoliberal impulse towards zero responsibility and helplessness comes in, because, like, you can't help, but, look, your two terms in office were followed by Donald Trump.

So you did, you know, you were somewhat. Now, part of it, I do think there was, like, you know, mass racial, backlash to him. Like, I do think that was part of what fueled the fire. And Trump was part of that, right, with the birtherism conspiracy and all of that. But that doesn't absolve you of, like, there was clearly, there were a lot of exits off the highway of where we were headed to now. And one of the biggest ones was 2008. And then also he, you know, he has stuck his hands back in our politics at strategic points to also make sure that the Democratic Party, doesn't become a party of the now, like creatures of the now, to make sure that specifically

the Bernie wing of the party is blocked, whether it was his intervention in the DNC race, obviously intervened extraordinarily in 2020. I mean, he also is a big part of the reason why he's the one who anointed Hillary Clinton for 2016, like she was his choice. So his fingerprints are all over the present-day Democratic Party, which is such a failure. And there's no reckoning with that. Who presided over the largest loss in black wealth ever. First black president. I mean, nobody ever grapples with that one.

You know, you talked about racial backlash. Sure. A lot of white people in 2012 voted for him in Ohio. A lot of white people all over America in a lot of red states today put their faith in Barack Hussein Obama after four years. Okay, no one forced you. This man won Indiana. This man won in, you thank you.

Yeah. That's why everyone always talks about that race thing. I go, yeah. Maybe in Alabama in all these places. You still won a lot of red states today, even in 2012, you know, before all this happened. So, like, let's, like, these people have agency, and they could have done a lot of stuff if they wanted to, to actually fix the country. So anyway, this is a long way of saying a lot of it is Obama's fault. And you can see why I ate her so much. All right, let's get to Ken Vogel. Welcome to Decoding Women's Health. I'm Dr. Elizabeth Pointer, chair of Women's Health

and Gynecology at the Atria Health Institute in New York City. On this show, I'll be talking to top researchers and top clinicians, asking them your burning questions and bringing that information about women's health and midlife directly to you. A hundred percent of women go through menopause. It can be such a struggle for our quality of life, but even if it's natural, why should we suffer through it? The types of symptoms that people talk about is forgetting everything, I never used to forget things. They're concerned that, one, they have dementia, and the other one is, do I have ADHD? date. There is unprecedented promise with regard to cannabis and cannabinoids, to sleep better, to have less pain, to have better mood, and also to have better day-to-day life.

Listen to Decoding Women's Health with Dr. Elizabeth Pointer on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening now. In early 1988, federal agents raced to track down the gang they suspect of importing millions of dollars. worth of heroin, into New York from Asia. We had 30 agents ready to go with shotguns and rifles and you name it. But what they find is not what they expected. Basically, your stay-at-home moms were picking up these large amounts of heroin. They go, is this your daughter? I said yes. They go, oh, you may not see her for like 25 years.

Caught between a federal investigation and the violent gang who recruited them, the women must decide who they're willing to protect and who they dare to betray. Once I saw the gun, I tried to take his hand, and I saw the flash of light. Listen to the Chinatown Sting on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or anywhere you get your podcasts. What's up everybody? This is Snacks from the TrapNur's podcast, and we're bringing you the horror every week all October long. Kicking off this month, I'll be bringing you all my Spirit-inducing horror games from Resident Evil to Silent Hill. Me and Tony bringing back by our team on Left for Dead 2.

And we're just going to be going over some of the greats. Also in October, we'll be talking about our favorite horror and Halloween movie and figure out why black people always got to die first. The umbral reliquary invites any and all fooling, brave enough, to peruse its many curiosities. But take heed, all sales are final. Weekly horror side quest written and narrated by yours truly with a full episode read and a commentary special. And we will cap it off with horror movie battle royale.

Jason versus Freddie. Michael Myers versus the 80th thing with the little tongue muster. October, we're doing it Halloween style. Listen to the Travener's podcast from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHard Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Very lucky to be joined in studio this morning by Ken Vogel is a phenomenal reporter for the New York Times and also author of this new book right here. It is called Devil's Advocate,

The Hidden Story of Rudy Giuliani, Hunter Biden, and the Washington Insiders on the payrolls of corrupt foreign interests. So something that we are certainly very interested in here. Ken, we've relied on your reporting so much on this show over the course of the year. So thank you so much. It's great to have you in studio.

Yes, great to be with you. I'm a big fan of the show. Thanks, man. It means a lot. Well, we had an abundance of examples of foreign influence, just sort of out in the open. I mean, this is one of the thing about Trump 2.0. We already covered the comments he made.

about Mary Madelson, like, hey, this lady, you know, gave me a bunch of money, and then I did the stuff that she wanted me to do. So he tends to wear it on his sleeve a bit more. And we have another example of this. We can put this up on the screen. So this was from, you know, his recent trip in Egypt. And you can see him here with the Indonesian president who asked him if he can meet with his son, Eric, in particular. Now, Eric is not a member of the administration. Eric is running the Trump organization or is among those running the Trump organization. and Trump says, yeah, sure, Eric's such a good boy. I'll have him give you a call.

What did you make of this particular moment and the import here? Yeah, I mean, it really shows the degree to which Trump and the, you know, the folks around him have kind of dropped the pretense. They are openly blurring the line between their foreign policy, U.S. foreign policy, and their business interests. And, you know, there was a telling quote that Eric Trump gave one of my colleagues, Ben, protested at the beginning of the administration. He said, in the first term, we did everything imaginable to avoid any people. the appearance of impropriety, and frankly, we got crushed anyway and said that we had lost an absolute fortune, quote, we can't just sit out in perpetuity, and I won't. I'm not in government, I'm in private industry. And he is, again, he's wearing it on his sleeve. He's admitting,

like, this is what we're doing. And you can see why someone like the president of Indonesia or any other foreign leader or interest would want to do business with the Trump family, with the various crypto interest with the real estate business, because there is this thinking that it is going to get you at the front of the line in terms of your asks on foreign policy, that is being able to shape the U.S. government by doing business with Trump or the people around it. If anything, this is a language they speak well. They're like, pay off the guy's son. Easy. You know, they're like, we do that here all the time. You know, we set up shell companies or any of that. That's like a natural way. But one of the things I've always appreciated about

your reporting is that you dive into the way that it sneaks. its way through Washington. So some of the examples that you find here in the book are paying off of these various lobbyists, shell companies and other things that will funnel around in order to obfuscate possibly what that influence is. Throughout your reporting, what did you find as the countries which are the best at their foreign influence operations? I mean, it is, to your point, Sager, it is like this mindset that you see in the developing world and parts of like the post-communist world, in the Middle East, where they, They have this, you know, this is the way that politics works.

If you want something from government, you pay the people in the government or the people around them. They're gatekeepers. And so we've always sort of had this conceit in the U.S. that, oh, no, no, no, we're different. We don't do that. We have all these ethics rules and disclosure rules and campaign finance rules and lobbying disclosure requirements that essentially are the firewall that prevents that type of activity from happening here.

And what I found is I reported the book that, no, actually, we're not that different. And it's not just the Trump administration and the Trump family. It goes back to Democratic administrations passed and Republican administrations passed. And the places in the world that are best in it are those that have that mindset. So they're the Ukrainians of the world where it's this post-Soviet country where like, how do you get what you want? How do you become super rich? You're an oligarch who's able to like cozy up to the state and essentially privatize state

assets and make them your own. And so how do you get that in the U.S.? If you're Ukrainian oligarch, you pay Rudy Giuliani, or you pay Hunter Biden, or you pay Paul Manafort, you pay someone like that. And the thing that surprised me, particularly in Ukraine, but in a lot of these other countries, is the bipartisan nature of this. It's not just that, like, you would pay, you know, a campaign aide for John McCain or for, you know, Bob Dole, or for John Kerry. You would pay them all at the same time. They would be all in the same team working for Viktor Yanukovych, in the case of Ukraine. where he had Paul Manafort and Tony Podesta and Tad Devine, who were in the U.S., they're like taking

these principles stands and posturing about how they have all these, you know, how their involvement of politics is guided and shaped by some like overarching set of principles that align them with the red team or the blue team. Well, no, in Ukraine, it's the green team. And that green team unites the red and the blue team. And that's the money team. Yeah, so talk a little bit more about the Ukraine example, because this one obviously is very big in the public consciousness.

Hunter Biden, you know, Burisma, all of that, like, he claims, oh, I was just on the board because I have this expertise, had nothing to do with my father. I didn't give them any favors. I mean, what do you actually find in the book about the way that these relationships work? In particular, when you have someone who is just selling basically their proximity to an administration. Yeah, I mean, that's exactly what he was doing. And that is, you know, the mindset. There was this oligarch, McColle Zolchevsky, who was the head of Burisma. And it's the quintessential oligarchic fact pattern where like he was in the administration of this corrupt strongman president that the U.S. wanted gone, Victor Yanukovych, who by the way is the guy who

was represented by Paul Manafort and Ted Devine and Tony Podesta. And they, as a result of this fact pattern where he's essentially privatized these state assets and made a fortune off of them, the U.S., the U.S., the U.K. and the Ukrainian prosecutors were like looking at this. guy and identifying him as like a poster child for the type of corruption that they were trying to root out under the new government. And so he hired a bunch of people, not just Hunter Biden, but former Polish president, Kwasniewski, I think is how you say his name, to try to signal to prosecutors and international officials that, like, hey, like, don't mess with me because I've got protection, you know,

again, thinking in the way that, like, you think in Ukraine, that this is going to back away the, you know, the government officials from coming after you. And, you know, we do see examples. You know, the question is like, what did Hunter Biden actually do? We do see examples where he did recruit a lobbying firm that was going to do the lobbying, and they did meet with people. And he actually met with people in his father's government, in the Obama Biden administration. What did he actually deliver? It's questionable. I mean, the prosecutor who they did want gone, and this is sort of getting in the weeds. little bit, but there's this prosecutor who's been at the center of the Burisma stories,

a guy by the name of Victor Shokin, and like the Democrats have suggested, oh, no, no, they didn't want, you know, Burisma was okay with this guy because he wasn't actually investigating him. Well, no, that's not actually accurate. He wasn't really investigating him in the traditional sense, but in the Ukrainian sense, he held open the possibility of investigations and used that to elicit bribes from the, from Zolchewski, the oligarch who owned Burisma. So they did want him gone, and whether it was Hunter Biden or the people who he recruited, they were certainly helpful in effectuating that end result.

And he was fired. And ultimately, the investigations into Burisma were dropped by the subsequent prosecutor before he ended up flipping sides and going into bed with Rudy Giuliani. It's been years since I've been, even hearing his name again, I'm like, oh, man, it's been a long time since we've coming all that. When I used to write about it, my editors and be like, can we write a story that doesn't read like it's like a game. Recap of the Polish national hockey team. I'm like, no. It is. It is what it is. Yeah. It is what it is. Yeah. One of the things we talk a lot about here on the show is pro-Israel influence, but one of the things that they will often say is, well, you never cover Qatari influence. And so you are quite literally one of the experts on this. We pulled one of your older stories. It's not fair, by the way. It's not fair, by the way. Yeah, we have. But anyway. Whatever. All right. Still, you wrote this story after Pam Bondi was selected as the attorney general. You said as lobbyist, Bondi had client. including Amazon, GM, Uber, and Qatar. In the book, you also dictate some of the Qatari influence

you've watched here in Washington. Tell us a little bit about that. How sophisticated is it? What is the money? And to what end are they trying to buy? What type of influence do they want? Yeah, I mean, they threw around huge sums of money, as you guys have noted,

particularly in the first Trump administration, when they were locked in this regional embroil with Saudi and with the UAE over this boycott, boycott, right? And so, and it was, it was multi-pronged. I mean, they had sort of set the seeds, sort of lay the foundation by cultivating a business relationship with Jared Kusher, who was the point person on sort of Middle East policy during the first Trump administration, now arguably again in the second Trump administration.

But then that wasn't enough for them. That was sort of the, you know, the approach that I was talking about before with the Indonesian president where they're going straight to the top. But they also did a very traditional influence campaign when they threw around a ton of money to lobbyists on both sides of the aisle, and including Brian Ballard's firm, which was where Pam Bondi was employed before she was tapped as Attorney General. And, you know, they, they did, they did sort of curry favor with, you know, with the administration and managed to get the administration to help resolve that, that boycott in a way that was to their, to their liking.

And, you know, there were a number of cases that came out of that where there was this, it's sort of ironic now, but there was a clampdown on this type of foreign lobbying during the first Trump administration as a result of the Mueller investigation and some of the spillover investigations, and it ended up leading to a deferred prosecution agreement in the case of a prominent Trump-connected lobbyist Barry Bennett, where he didn't exactly plead guilty, but he admitted that he had violated Farah while he was representing the Qataris. And so it's ironic now that Pam Bondi as Attorney General, one of the first things that you did was decriminalize the prosecution of the Foreign Agents Registration Act and say we're not going to be allocating, you know, prosecutorial

resources to going after these types of cases. So it's really... I didn't even take note of that actually. It's a free-for-all right now. So I need people like... Yeah, exactly. There's so much stuff going on. I think, you know, oftentimes, there's definitely a lot of division between the two parties in Washington. The place where they tend to come together the most is actually on foreign policy, and oftentimes in a way that the American people are not particularly pleased about, how much of that owes to this, you know, wash, this amount of foreign cash that this city is a wash in. And, you know, Ukraine's a perfect example. You talk about Tad Devine and Paul Manafort. This is a Democratic strategist and a Republican strategist, like, very bipartisan the way that this money flows.

Yeah, I think a lot of it, a lot of what you're talking about, where we're making these, you know, bargains with the devil, where it's like this particular country or leader or interest is not really align with our ideals about democracy and human rights and free speech and religious freedom, but they're kind of our best friend in the region. And a lot of the sort of casting of these entities as aligned with U.S. foreign policy is because of these lobbyists. You go back to Paul Manafort, who was really like the godfather of this industry. And what he would do during the Reagan and Bush administrations was go around the world and find, you know, sometimes really blood-soaked brutal, you know, opposition leaders, guerrilla leaders, or, you know, dictators

and take them to Washington and say, like, this person can be your bulwark against communism in whatever part of the world, whether it's in, you know, Marcos in the Philippines, or Jonas Savimbi, the bloody guerrilla leader in Angola, Paul Manafort helped them win U.S. support, bipartisan, U.S. support and funding by taking them to Washington and cast them as like a bulwark against communism. Well, fast forward until now, we have a very similar thing happening, but it's not about any particular ideological alignment. Rather, it's about like casting these people as like,

this person is the Trump of the Balkans. And this person is the Trump of the Balkans because they have been prosecuted by, you know, prosecutors in their home country or they've been sanctioned by the Biden administration, and therefore you, President Trump, should take their side and, you know, give them U.S. government funding and remove sanctions because they are a great example. This guy's got a $20 billion bailout. A great example.

Huge amount of Silicon Valley guys were friends with him, pushed his administration, now he needs a bailout. They're the same people who back Trump, and he gets this, like, sweetheart deal from the U.S. government. Actually, I'm curious. Have you heard anything about that? How exactly did all that come about? Yeah, we're doing some reporting on that I'm not quite ready to reveal. But, I mean, there are lots of examples. Yes, South America is a good one because certainly Bolsonaro. They tried, they tried to help Bolsonaro like, you know, overturned the election results. And then they tried to, Trump tried to back off the Supreme Court. And Bolsonaro has a lot of these Trump allies, including Donald Trump Jr., who he's cultivated. And there was,

there were reports about Bolsonaro's son being in the White House early in the, early in this term. So it's another example where like the, some of the framing has changed, like the way that these lobbyists and others try to cast these people as allied with the U.S. It's not like a Cold War type of framing. It's really like a cult of personality that they are aligned with Trump and therefore they deserve U.S. government support and funding. And then the other pieces you mentioned before is just like direct cash infusions. And how much has his crypto coin and, you know, crypto holdings and the company associated with

that, like how much has that fueled just inflows of potentially corrupt cash influence administration. Yeah, hugely. I mean, you know, Democrats and critics, I'm not like dismissing this criticism during the first administration made a huge deal of like foreign interest staying at the Trump hotel. That was a violation of the emoluments cause. You know, maybe it was, maybe it wasn't courts ultimately decided that it wasn't. But, you know, but at least there, there was like some service. There was some pretext, they were actually getting something. They were getting a night in the hotel or whatever. Now it's like just giving me money. Compared to this. Yeah. I mean, the crypto stuff, I mean, I don't know where you guys stand. I know a little bit about where you

stand on crypto from listening, but like where your audience stands like, but like it's arguable that like there's some value there, the values in the eye of the beholder, but certainly like you're not getting so, you're not getting a physical service or something like that. You are literally putting money in the Trump family's pocket because you believe in them or you think you can get something out of them. And we saw this most acutely with World Liberty Financial where finance and the UAE finance a two big. billion dollar deal using world liberty financial and like what did they get out of that they certainly get on trump's good side i mean we'll see maybe if the deal goes through and is a great

success but there's there's an open question as to whether they're actually getting something other than the favor of the president for that two billion dollar investment can please keep it up everybody go and buy the book we will have a link down in the description for you to purchase it thank you very much sir we rely on you and we thank you pleasure thank you so much for watching we appreciate you guys i'll be on with ryan tomorrow Bro Show, and then I'll see you all on Thursday. re-watching the series from start to finish and getting into all the fashions, the drama, and the behind-the-scenes moments that you've never heard before.

But you were still bartending? I didn't know that. The bar back is like, is that you? And it's a commercial for Betty. And I was like, I quit. I quit. Listen to Viva Betty on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. The internet is something we make, not just something that happens to us.

I'm Bridget Todd, host of the tech and culture podcast. are No Girls on the Internet. In our new season, I'm talking to people like Anil Dash, an OG entrepreneur and writer who refuses to be cynical about the Internet. I love tech. You know, I've been a nerd my whole life, but it does have to be for something. Like, it's not just for its own sake. It's an inspiring story that focuses on people as the core building blocks of the Internet. Listen to There are No Girls on the Internet on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, guys, it's Stephanie Beatriz. I'm Melissa Fumero, and this is more better. We are jumping right.

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All the things. Because aren't we all trying to get a little more better? Listen to more better on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.