Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 10/30/24: Kamala Massive Final Pitch Rally, Biden Trump Supporters 'Garbage', CNN Bans Guest LIVE, Oct 7 Survivor Says Bibi Gov Collapse

Episode Date: October 30, 2024

Ryan and Emily discuss Kamala massive rally at Jan 6 site, Biden calls Trump supporters garbage, SCOTUS rules RFK on ballot in swing states, CNN bans guest mid segment for 'beeper' attack on Mehdi Hasan, Oct 7 survivor says Bibi gov collapse with Kamala win, and did Trump abandon populism with Elon partnership?   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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went down that day. On Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage, you'll hear about these heroes and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. All right, good morning and welcome to Counterverse. This will be the last Counterpoints on a Wednesday before the election. I was going to say, exactly a week from right now as we are speaking, the election results... We'll be asleep, hopefully. Yeah, well, I doubt it. The election results will be in. It doesn't mean we will know who the president is,

because that wasn't the case last time. There were really tight margins, and it's looking very similar, if not even closer, than it was in 2020. And happy Steve Bannon released from prison today. Wow, that's a big deal. I listened to his podcast this morning. He's a free man.

I have so many questions about his time in prison. Did he wear two prison outfits? The way he wears two. For people who don't know, he wears two of like the button down shirts. And for the record, Bannon going to prison because he didn't respond to a subpoena. Right. There are other cases against Bannon. But the one he went to prison for is refusing to reply to a congressional subpoena over January 6th.

And lots of people don't do that. No, tons of people don't. Yeah, that's as funny as the two jumpsuits is, I guess. The law firm, maybe not so much, but. We're going to talk about the Kamala Harris's rally, which both Emily and I were at last night in Washington, D.C. We're going to talk about Garbagegate. Did Joe Biden say that all of Donald Trump's supporters are an island or a pile of garbage? Or did he just misspeak? We will parse that for you.

We'll get to the bottom of it. Could swing the election. Apostrophe gate. We need to get to the bottom of this. Yeah, absolutely. Then we'll be talking about Robert F. Kennedy Jr. not getting off the ballot in some swing states officially decided by the Supreme Court yesterday. So huge news, really, even though it could only affect a few thousand ballots. It's still really big news.

We had Emily's friend, Ryan Gerduski, booted off the CNN. It was great how it started, how it's going. I'll be on CNN at 8 p.m. I have been banned from CNN. We'll also be talking to Amir Tavar. To be fair, Gerduski and I aren't exactly friends, but Ryan is alluding to a debate that we hosted with Zero Hedge on immigration. That was a Robbie Suave versus Ryan Gerduski and Jack Posobiec and the libertarian presidential candidate. It was a melee.

I didn't think I could be shocked. Those MAGA dudes talking about what they were going to do if they win the White House. Yeah. Wow. Okay. Yeah. Interesting. Then we're going to have Amir Tabon, who is an Israeli journalist and author of the new book, The Gates of Gaza. He has not just an incredible story from October 7th. He and his family lived in Nahal Oz, which is the kibbutz that is closest to Gaza. You may have actually heard something about his story about a year ago. Absolutely gripping. We're going to talk to him just about

his book and also the unfolding genocide that's going on in Gaza now, including some updates from northern Gaza, as well as my interaction yesterday with Matt Miller in the State Department press room. And then we've got, Emily interviewed Eric Schmidt, Missouri Senator. And more importantly, friends with J.D. Vance, probably J.D. Vance's closest friend in the Senate. So had him on Undercurrents and asked him a little bit about whether Elon Musk undercuts the drain the swamp message. And if he's worried actually, as Matt Stoller is, about Trump telling this wonderful story and how the Google CEO keeps calling him to tell him the McDonald's thing was the biggest, who knows whether or not that's

actually true. But it was a good conversation about the realignment and some insight into the campaign as we get closer to election day. So, speaking of which, Ryan, should we start with the A Block here? And the rally, we were both at last night on the National Mall. The Ellipse is that park. I'm going to put this VO up here while Emily's going. Right. You're going to want to see this. And if you're listening, we'll describe it a little bit, but the Ellipse is the park that's directly south of the White House. And Kamala Harris hosted a very well-staged rally that ended up drawing a massive, massive audience. The sun was setting on a quite literally perfect fall day in Washington.

Amazing weather. And it stretched all the way back to the Washington Monument. It got sparser towards the Washington Monument, which is still an impressive feat because that's just a lot of ground to cover and to have it that tightly packed. Ryan, what did you make of the rally last night? And they had a handful of kind of regular people who would tell stories about a kid who needs insulin and gets it cheaper because of Biden's and Congress under Biden cracking down on and making insulin cheaper and that sort of thing. But in general, nobody else. Like there was no Joe Biden. There were no senators.

There were no members of Congress. There were no labor leaders. So it wasn't that sense of route. It was just like, oh, here's the vice president. And that's it. One takeaway we were talking about before the show started, she did her thing where she talked about how Trump got in the way of Democrats wanting to crack down on the border and this really tough immigration bill that they had, you know,

negotiated with Republican immigrant immigration hawks. And the crowd is just like dead silent, like, we don't want to hear this. And then then she says and of course we are a nation of immigrants right and the crowd erupts at that so it was interesting to see that while the Democratic elites have done a complete 180 when it comes to immigration policy and and the and the approach to immigrants in the border that at least this kind of demographic of the Democratic base was like, no, no, no, we actually meant it when we said, like, all are welcome here. Like, we're not actually with you on this pivot that you've done.

So Kamala Harris, the parts of the speech, she was billing this as a kind of democracy speech, billing it as her closing argument, and started off making a very direct parallel to January 6. She said, right here where we're standing right now, Donald Trump encouraged his supporters to go down to the Capitol. And then she pivoted to the meat of the speech being way more about, like you were saying, health care costs, child care costs, inflation, home prices, and all of that, and brought it back to these questions of democracy and everything at the end. Literally, as she was speaking, and we'll get to this, but as she was speaking, Joe Biden was on CNN like 100 yards behind her making his weird garbage comment about Trump supporters.

We will parse that, don't fear. But that was happening at the same time as Kamala Harris had this line where she said, I have it right here, the fact that someone disagrees with us doesn't make them the enemy within. So talk about stepping on the messaging. And that was a theme of the speech. She said, you know, she's not going to put her opponents in prison. She's going to give them a seat at the table. Right. Otherwise, standard Kamala stuff. She's coming in with a to-do list. A to-do list, an enemy's list. Here's a little bit of Kamala from last night. We know who Donald Trump is. He is the person who stood at this very spot nearly four years ago and sent an armed mob to the

United States Capitol to overturn the will of the people in a free and fair election. Our democracy doesn't, it doesn't require us to agree on everything. In fact, we like good arguments from time to time. Just think of your own family, right? It's not the American way to not have disagreements. We don't shy away from robust debate. Robust debate, in fact, we like a good debate, don't we? We like a good debate. And the fact that someone disagrees with us does not make them the enemy within. They are family, neighbors, classmates, co-workers. They are fellow Americans.

And as Americans, we rise and fall together. So I think it's worth being very clear, Wren, we were talking about this a little bit earlier. Kamala Harris being able to draw a massive crowd in Washington, D.C. on a nice day is really not a sign that, you know, sort of we do the same thing with Trump rally sizes, too. It's not a sign that she's necessarily going to win, that she just was able to draw a bunch of people from the Beltway whose livelihoods are connected to the federal bureaucracy that Donald Trump is threatening quite explicitly. Lots of defense people, defense industry people out here. So it's not hugely impressive as a feat, but I thought they put it together very well. Sure.

Well, except I don't, oh, I guess you weren't inside the gates then. At the end, they only had like one place to leave. Oh, really? Like they were afraid we were going to go sack the Capitol or something. It took longer to get out than it was to get in. They knew what you were up to. Am I under arrest?

If I'm not under arrest, you need to let me go. Right. You know, there was a pretty rowdy cohort of Palestinian activists who were outside the gates of the rally. And I caught on video a couple of times. I mean, it got tense because people were waiting in a really long line to get into the rally. And the Palestinian protesters did strategically a great job of setting up camp right in the high traffic areas. And so as people are waiting, they're shouting shame and are you okay with genocide, which is really riling up the Kamala bros, as you can imagine, who start saying like, you're pro-Trump.

And, you know, it was this interesting split screen of sort of people in their like dockers and barber jackets yelling at the Palestinian activists who had pictures of babies that had been, you know, injured, killed in the war. And they're being yelled at by, in some cases, these just like pasty white, I can say that because I'm pasty white, but these like pasty white rich kids who just need them to vote for Kamala Harris. So it got, they did a really good job of, you could actually hear them all the way back at the Washington Monument. Like strategically, good job of you could actually hear them all the way back at the Washington Monument. Strategically, I heard that you could even hear them inside the rally from the press pen. So they were loud throughout the entire rally. You could hear them. They had bullhorns and were genuinely, I think they genuinely did what they sought to do, but it was another great split

screen because when I stood in the same spot as I stood on January 6th, I was watching and I was trying to compare what I was seeing. The most well-off crowd I've ever seen at a rally ever. And that doesn't mean there weren't people who flew in private jets on January 6th, of course there were, but it was a much more sort of hardscrabble crowd. And it was similar with- Last night, it's people who live in DC or suburban Maryland or suburban Virginia. Yeah, I just thought it was a similar dynamic, actually, though, with the Palestinian activists. And you've probably seen this before. It was scrappy people who weren't making these big paychecks and getting shouted down by people who felt entitled to have everyone vote for Kamala Harris? I didn't see it, yeah, where I was,

I didn't see any friction between the protestors and the, I mean, I saw some people saying like, we agree with you. Mm, I saw that too. And I think they understood, like they're not gonna win an argument at that point anyway. Yeah. And they probably actually do agree that what they disagree with is they're like, well, yeah, we're just going to swallow this and vote for this person anyway. Totally.

And then they're showing up at a rally. Yeah, exactly. And so Trump was in the Lehigh Valley last night. My dad and my brother went to that rally, actually. Just to check it out. Just to check it out. Just to check it out. But Kamala has a new ad kind of targeting Trump people, which is making the rounds here. Let's roll that.

Your turn, honey. In the one place in America where women still have a right to choose. You can vote any way you want. And no one will ever know. Did you make the right choice? Sure did, honey. Remember, what happens in the booth stays in the booth. Vote Harris-Walls.

Vote Common Good is responsible for the contents of this ad. What did you think of that? You know, I think it's almost insulting to women. I see what they're doing. I think it's insulting to, it's also like a huge L on mail-in balloting because that's a huge problem with mail-in balloting is you potentially have someone like watching over your shoulder

and or filling out the ballots for you and saying, oh, this is a, I know how you're voting. Oh, ballots filled out. Put it in the mail. Don't worry about it. But on top of it, it's just like, I think a woman can tell her husband she's not voting for Trump. I know that does get tense in people's marriages. I understand that. But like, you don't need Julia Roberts to tell you it's okay to go against your husband. Yeah. I wonder who that ad is for. Suburban women, right? Who are already voting for

Harrison, making them feel even better about it. Maybe a comparison would be the way that Obama has been saying, if you're Muslim, how can you vote for the guy who did the Muslim ban? I don't think that's actually aimed at Muslim voters. It's aimed at other people who might feel like because of their solidarity with the Arab or Muslim American community, that they might not be able to vote for Kamala Harris, even though they themselves are like, well, you know, I prefer Kamala over Trump, and it's regrettable what's going on in Gaza, but it's not really my main issue. But then if they feel a sense of solidarity with their friends in the Muslim Arab community, then they might side with them. And I think what Obama was doing with that one line saying, if you're Muslim, how can you vote for the Muslim ban guy?

It gives the non-Muslims then this like permission structure to say, yeah, you're right. That is crazy. I'm going to be an ally by voting against the Muslim ban guy. So maybe this makes some suburban women feel better. Maybe it works. I don't know. We'll see. Yeah, I don't know. Anything, I mean, at this point, any tiny little demo you can pick off when you have a statistical dead heat, essentially, is if that works on a couple thousand women, it may be the difference. So even though that seems unlikely, I guess they're throwing everything at the wall, it may be the difference. So even though that seems unlikely,

I guess they're throwing everything at the wall, getting Julia Roberts out there. Now, speaking of which, we don't have to just go by crowd size or advertisement messaging. Let's take a listen here to Harry Enten, who gave a pretty interesting breakdown of where the polls are right now on CNN yesterday. That's all we hear about. Oh, Donald Trump's going to outperform his polls. So I went back and checked out whether or not a party outran the polls three presidential election cycles in a row in the key battleground states. It's never happened.

It's never happened. Zero times. Zero times since 1972. So if the polls are going to underestimate Donald Trump once again, that would be historically unprecedented. Now, maybe you want to make the argument that Donald Trump himself is historically unprecedented, but what normally happens is the

pollsters catch on. Hey, we're underestimating. We're not taking into account some part of the electorate. They make adjustments. And I think that helps to explain why we have never seen that the same party has been underestimated three times in a row in presidential elections, at least over the last 52 years. And what do we see in 2022 in Michigan, Pennsylvania, and Wisconsin? Well, it turns out that the average poll in those states actually underestimated Democrats by four points. It underestimated Democrats by four points.

And I want to apply that to the electoral map, because if it turns out that the polls underestimate Donald Trump, or underestimated the Democrats, excuse me, like they did in 2022. What happens? Well, Kamala Harris wins a sweep because she wins all these Great Lake battleground states. She wins down in the southeast and she wins down in the southwest and she gets the 319 electoral votes. Okay, so that's actually some pretty interesting historical context there, Ryan. Another thing I wanted to add is my colleague at The Federalist, former colleague John Daniel

Davidson, wrote a piece really interesting in terms of polling. It's not a piece about polling, but it's called The Social Stigma of Being a Trump Supporter is Gone, which I think is probably true on a national level. Maybe it's not true in everyone's marriage, but that actually, if we're trying to figure out whether this polling is accurate, a lot of that inaccuracy in the polling was attributed to the quote shy Trump voter phenomenon. So when even you have the Federalists saying they feel like the social statement would be a Trump supporter is gone, I do wonder if we look back a week from now and see that that affected the polling. Yeah, the Federalists would know, right?

So I think it's true. Like, people are, for better or worse, if they like Trump, they're more willing to say it now than they certainly were, I think, in, say, October of 2016. Totally. Yeah, absolutely. Well, let's get to our next block because we have Shelby Talcott in studio. And we're going to run down some Trump updates. Stay tuned for that. We're excited to be joined in studio by one of our favorite return guests, Shelby Talcott of Semaphore. Semaphore,

Shelby, correct me on air. It's Semaphore. Semaphore. I get Semaphore a lot, but I didn't come up with the name, to be clear. Okay, well, we'll blame Ben. I've heard it both ways. So, Shelby, you are doing a lot of reporting on the Trump campaign. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. Voiceover is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover

to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together.

How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action. And that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Max Chavkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday,

we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives. But guests like Businessweek editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams, and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left.

In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series,

we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. And to the vibe check on the Trump campaign with less than a week to go before Election Day, let's put B1 up on the screen. This is a tear sheet from Politico just reporting a little bit on how the fallout from the Tony Hinchcliffe joke about Puerto Rico is now, quote, spreading like wildfire in Pennsylvania.

Now, that may seem interesting to people outside Pennsylvania who say, how could a joke about Puerto Ricans be the difference in Pennsylvania? But my understanding, Shelby, based on your reporting, is that the Trump campaign recognizes with tight margins, which we likely expect a week from now, the Puerto Rican demographic in swing states is big enough to really perhaps make a difference. What are you hearing from them? Yeah, listen, and I was surprised by how many Puerto Ricans are in Pennsylvania. In fact, I think the number was like half a million. But the big thing is that Donald Trump's campaign recognizes that this is essentially a tied race. And so anything that could swing some of these voters either against voting for Donald Trump

or even getting off of the couch and deciding to vote for Kamala Harris is notable. And what Kamala Harris's campaign has tried really hard to do and Democrats have tried really hard to do with some success is to tie that comedian's joke directly to Donald Trump because, of course, it was at his rally. And that was not the only sort of controversial, hot comment of the evening, right? You had the anti-Christ comment, you had some sort of other speakers who made these certain remarks that a lot of people were offended by. And so the campaign has really tried to distance itself from this comedian's comment. And I talked to Donald Trump's political director, James Blair, yesterday, and I asked him about this. And he argued that they're not concerned that it's going to affect the vote because at the end of the day, Donald Trump himself did not say it.

And they have disavowed the comment. But it's clearly a concern. And you can tell that because the campaign typically doesn't even go so far as to disavow themselves from certain things. So when they do, it's notable. And so I as someone knows, I grew up partly in Allentown, was born there. And my dad and brother went to the Trump rally in Allentown last night. And I can tell you, yeah, Allentown and the entire Lehigh Valley area is like half Puerto Rican or more, even from back when I was there. These are people who have been there for a very long time. I think the way that

the comedian made the joke, he like connected it also to people, Latinos being here illegally. And I won't even get into like the crude joke that he told ahead of it, which has been going like wildfire. I liked that one. I mean, it's like, but also, so the Puerto Ricans who heard that are like, how dare you? We're Americans. What are you talking about? And also they've been living here since the seventies in the Lehigh Valley. And I think the big thing is these jokes maybe are fine for like a bar scenario or a comedy club. Kill Tony, yeah. But we're a week and a half out from the presidential election, and this is a political campaign. And when I talk to people on Donald Trump's team, they've conceded that, yeah,

okay, this was a mistake. We probably shouldn't have had not only a comedian, but an edgy comedian at our political rally because inevitably it's going to get tied to Donald Trump, of course. Yeah. And they got a gift that they've been going absolutely wild with just in the last like 12 hours. We're recording this in the morning and it happened around nine o'clock in the evening. Actually, as Kamala Harris was speaking, Joe Biden was on CNN and had this to say. This is what Kamala gets for not inviting him to the rally. Exactly. Let's roll B2.

For Puerto Rico, where I'm in my home state of Delaware, they're good, decent, honorable people. The only garbage I see floating out there is his supporters. His demonization is seen as unconscionable. So this is a wild, wild frenzy because the Biden campaign is now doing cleanup and saying that Joe Biden said supporters with an apostrophe on the end of it, meaning the garbage was Trump supporters' possessive garbage. Demonization. Referring to the comedian, like the singular. Right, that it's possessive, that it's like this is there, it belongs to them, not that they themselves are garbage, which is what the Trump campaign, understandably, because when you're listening to it, he said, exactly, that is what he said.

And although media outlets have run with the Biden version of it and have actually tried to explain why in ways I don't, these are gymnastics I don't think would be happening if the parties were reversed there. But Shelby, just take us through a little bit. Everyone here can watch it. If you're watching this, we're going to put B2A, let's put this up on the screen. This is J.D. Vance's response. This started happening immediately. He started criticizing the media for cleaning up.

This is a Jonathan Lemire story in Politico. And JD Vance criticized them almost immediately on X Last Night for writing in a way that he felt was doing cleanup for the Biden campaign. And then he posted this one, a mother mourning her son who died of a fentanyl overdose is not garbage. A truck driver who can't afford rising diesel prices is not garbage. A father who wants to afford groceries is not garbage. And then we have one Trump tweet to put up, I guess a Trump truth. Maybe it was a tweet. Okay, he posted this on X as well. That's how you know he's feeling really good.

He's going to X, yeah. Well, I am running a campaign. Sand it with his chest. I am running a campaign. Sand it with his chest. Well, I am running a campaign of positive solutions to save America. Kamala Harris is running a campaign of hate, etc., etc. Now, on top of everything Joe Biden calls our supporters garbage. You can't lead America if you don't love the American people. Shelby, that tone is one. I watched the entire rally. You were actually there. I watched the whole thing from start to finish, and I wasn't on Twitter while I was watching it. So I wasn't sort of seeing the real-time feedback. That was the messaging that Trump just put in that tweet, somewhat amusingly. They were going

for it, the rally. Unity, love, the party of peace, the candidate of peace. So they feel like they've gotten a real last-minute gift here that actually could be, they believe, more effective than the deplorable moment was for Republicans. Is that what you're hearing? Yeah. Last night, actually, when I was texting people on Donald Trump's campaign, they kept comparing it to that Hillary Clinton deplorables moment. And listen, this is a really big gift for the Donald Trump campaign. Simply, whether it ends up influencing votes or not, who knows? We're so close to the actual election day. But what it does is it shifts the storyline from a pretty positive news cycle from Kamala Harris with the comedian situation. And so now everybody is focused on Joe Biden calling

Donald Trump supporters garbage. And again, you can debate on what he meant. I think it's a little bit of spin from the White House. You can hear it when you listen. But yeah, this is a really big gift and they're not going to let this go. I think you can expect to see it in last minute ads, in last minute posts on social media. We're seeing it all over. They're not going to die down on this. My own theory on it is that he was, I think he was trying to say the only thing that's garbage is his supporters' demonization of the American people. Because he then goes into the demonization. It seems like he's reading. But it's not. It's politics.

It doesn't matter what he meant to say. And, well, this is the problem. Also, who's the genius that's writing, like, a complicated script for this guy who can't? This is the problem with having Joe Biden on the campaign trail. That's exactly why Kamala Harris has kept her distance from having Joe Biden on the campaign trail because they don't believe he helps her. And we've seen that time and time again. Yeah, this seems like something that the Trump campaign rightfully understands will help turn out. Like, this is what gets your base to not stay home, is Joe Biden calling your supporters

garbage, literally at the moment that Kamala Harris is saying nobody's the enemy within, et cetera. Let's roll this clip of Jon Stewart responding to the Tony Hinchcliffe joke. This is B3, and Jon Stewart had a surprising take, actually, on what happened. Now, obviously, in retrospect, having a roast comedian come to a political rally a week before Election Day and roasting a key voting demographic, probably not the best decision by the campaign politically. But to be fair, the guy's really just doing what he does. I mean, here he is at the Tom Brady roast a few months ago. The great Jeff Ross, ladies and gentlemen.

Jeff is so Jewish, he only watches football for the coin toss. Gronk, you look like the Nazi that kept burning himself on the ovens. Kevin is so small that when his ancestors picked cotton, they called it deadlifting. Yes, yes, of course. Terrible boo, yes. There's something wrong with me. I find that guy very funny. So I'm sorry. I don't know what to tell you. I mean, bringing him to a rally and have him not do roast jokes, that'd be like bringing Beyonce to a rally and not have... Okay, that was pretty good. Shelby, to a point we were having actually before we went to air as we were chatting and getting the mics on, those are funny jokes. The Trump campaign seems to now be realizing they were funny jokes for a comedy set. And maybe as Trump is throwing together this genuinely, I think, interesting coalition

of people at Madison Square Garden, Dr. Phil, he had everyone from Dr. Phil to like hedge fund guys and Elon. Hulk Hogan. Hulk Hogan was there. It was a little bit of the RNC again. But it's interesting because the Trump campaign is kind of operating on the fly. It's just a totally different world. So do you sense that this was, you said this earlier, but maybe they realize that it kind of, these things can be funny, but that doesn't mean that they're

political campaign funny. I think they've realized that there's a time and a place and, you know, nine, however, nine, 10 days out from a presidential election where the polls are essentially tied and the both sides are going at each other pretty aggressively already, not the place to bring in a super edgy comedian who makes racially insensitive jokes. Although if it ends up baiting that Biden garbage comment, then it's like the hand of God. Yeah, it cancels each other out, or maybe the Biden thing ends up becoming a bigger deal.

Because I do think, again, you look back at 2016, the Hillary Clinton deplorables comment, that ended up being a huge deal. At least the difference with Hillary is she meant it, and she said exactly what she meant. Right. Whereas, you know, what Biden said is in contrast and in conflict with what their whole messaging is. But Biden's criticized Trump supporters in the past as well. So it does sort of line up with like past things he says, whether he meant it or not.

Do you remember some of the worst stuff? He has said some blunt stuff. He gave that big speech in Philadelphia. Remember, it was the dark Brandon speech with the red lights behind him outside Independence Hall. Yeah, I mean, I think this actually speaks to something that Harris-Biden camp is struggling with. And I saw it at the rally last night.

It was like, they can't decide whether they think that Trump supporters are fascists or that they're just- They deserve a seat at the table and they're part of our family. Exactly. Yeah, it is just an interesting- It's a very fine line and I don't know how you can do it successfully. And clearly this shows that they've struggled to do it successfully. They're probably also legitimately ambivalent on the question. I agree with that. They're not quite sure, actually. Yeah, I would agree with that. If they want them at the

table or they want to stick a knife in them. So Donald Trump then in Allentown in front of Ryan's family started talking about how Democrats have, quote, already started cheating. Let's roll this last clip here. If you have a mail-in ballot, get that damn ballot in, please, immediately, because they've already started cheating in Lancaster. They've cheated. We caught it with 2,600 votes. So Shelby, you've seen him so many times now. Is he just doing Trump impressions now? It feels like he's just doing his own impression. Mail-in ballots. It's like he's watched the impersonators and he's like, that's even better. I like it. Yeah. Well, the thing, when you go to a lot of these Trump rallies, a lot of them are

similar. This is, you know, not a new speech. This specific allegation, of course, is newer. But in general, he talks a lot about the 2020 election. He talks a lot about, you know, he has a lot of claims. He must be so happy to have new cheating, a new election ring to talk about. Well, it's interesting, too, because when I talked to James Blair, Trump's political director, I asked him, one of the questions I asked him towards the end of the interview was, what if in eight days from now, Kamala Harris wins? Like, what would the big thing be and what's your biggest concern? And on the biggest concern part, he started pointing to Pennsylvania and talking about exactly what Donald Trump was talking about last night. And so that was really interesting. And then I sort of asked a follow-up. I said, are you saying that if Kamala Harris wins, it's going to be because of voter interference? And he said, I'm not saying that. That's not

what I'm saying. I'm just saying that. That's not what I'm saying. I'm just saying that in the days leading up to the election, we want a free and fair election. We want the rules to be followed and then let the chips fall where they may. See, this is so interesting because let's bring it full circle. It's like the Tony Hinchcliffe set in that you don't, it's the double-edged sword of Donald Trump. You do not get the benefits politically of Trumpism without this part of Trumpism, meaning they can script a great Madison Square Garden rally and speech for Donald Trump. But because it's Donald Trump, they're still going to have the freewheeling and they're going to have the comedians and the

entertainers and the Hulk Hogan's. They can script it as well as they want. But if it's fundamentally Trumpy, it's still also going to have this. You can script something for Donald Trump. He's still going to talk about what he wants to talk about, and that's going to take you where it does. His campaign has learned for a long time now that they can do whatever they want, and they can sort of guide Donald Trump. But at the end of the day, Donald Trump runs the campaign, and part of their job is reacting to what Donald Trump may or may not say. And when I've been out on the campaign trail over the past year and a half, that's a big reason that some of these undecided voters are not so sure about Donald Trump, because they don't love when he goes off script. And so that's been something that the campaign has tried to sort of figure out. How do we get around that? How do we realize Donald Trump is going to be Donald Trump? Some people

are going to love it. Some people are going to be put off by it. How do we get some of those voters who are put off by it to still vote for him because they're, for example, more worried about the economy and jobs? So what's the mood among kind of the Trump brass now, October 30th, 2024? Like, how are they feeling? How do they feel about the early vote? How do they feel about the polls and heading into election day? The phrase I've heard used most often is cautiously optimistic, but it's really interesting because at the same time, I would say there's an equal amount of skepticism because for Donald Trump's campaign aides who have been here before, who have worked with him in 2020 and

2016, they've never been in this position where the polls are looking this good. And so they're almost like freaking out a little bit because they're like, what are we missing? They're going over the data. They're going over their internals. Exactly. They're just like, they're suspicious, essentially. Have you seen this guy? Yeah. So this confidence is matched with an equal amount of skepticism. And I think that's really notable. But also they're feeling good about the early vote. Of course, there's a lot of nuances with the early vote, and we're not really going to know where things fall until after the election. But they're really happy with the early vote, particularly because, of course, for years Donald Trump told his voters, don't early vote.

And so they're feeling really good that they have the numbers that they have in some of these states. They're feeling good about the tied race. I think their internals are showing that Donald Trump is a little bit more ahead than the external numbers. But yeah, cautiously optimistic is the phrase I hear most often. Can you stick around for a minute to talk Michigan and Wisconsin? Sure. All right, then let's put C1 up on the screen here. So RFK Jr. tried this kind of Hail Mary attempt to the Supreme Court to try to get off the

ballots in Michigan and Wisconsin. And because of the timing of him dropping out and endorsing former President Trump, that meant that in some states he can't get his name. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind VoiceOver, the movement that exploded in 2024. VoiceOver is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be.

These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover, to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together. How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways.

Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action. And that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Max Chavkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives.

But guests like Businessweek editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams, and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie.

In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today.

Off the ballot. True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. because I can see it a couple of different ways. And I'm curious what the campaign thinks if you've heard from them on this. On the one hand, I think RFK Jr. will get a decent number of votes, like in the thousands, maybe even the tens of thousands in these states. But then the question is, what would those people have done if his name was not on the ballot? They might have just written in weed, or they might have voted for Ryan Graham, they might have voted for another third party, or just left it blank. So people kind of automatically think, oh, he endorsed Trump, and they have voted for RFK Jr. on their ballots. That means if he wasn't there, they would have automatically voted for Trump. And I think that's a leap that you can't make. But I'm curious how, obviously, they care because they went to the Supreme Court.

How big of a handicap is this for Trump in Michigan and Wisconsin? I mean, I think it's an open question, right? As you said, they clearly care because they tried to get his name removed. But I remember months ago when Kennedy first got into the race, there was real debate over who he would hurt more. Donald Trump's campaign at one point had internal data that he would hurt them more. And so I think that's important. And now, as people heard from Kennedy more, I think, you know, some of these, he garnered more Republicans than Democrats. But I think there are a small number of people who might vote for Donald Trump or might stay home who were backing Kennedy. And so any vote, I think,

any number in this presidential election when it's so close, if the public polling is to be believed, can influence it. And so I do think that Donald Trump's campaign is somewhat concerned about it. It doesn't help them. And I do expect that we'll probably see Kennedy out urging those voters in those states to vote for Donald Trump in the next few days. Yeah, and in politics, I think the biggest bias that you have, especially in media, is just working in media. And you are so disconnected from the mind of the average voter who has a million different things going on, may genuinely start tuning into the election. I mean, we've been covering this every single day for over a year, but may genuinely start tuning into the election the day before they vote. And looking,

like Google Donald Trump versus Kamala Harris, immigration numbers, healthcare, all of those things, inflation, and are like looking at the charts and whatever. But there are also people who go in there, aren't happy with the candidates, are voting for, maybe they're going to vote for Tammy Baldwin in Wisconsin, and they see Robert F. Kennedy Jr.'s names on the ballot, and they like Robert F. Kennedy Jr., and they don't like Donald Trump or Kamala Harris. Robert F. Kennedy Jr. was campaigning pretty hard against Donald Trump just about a year and a half ago. That stuff does happen. People really aren't happy with these two candidates. That's what he was originally campaigning on, in fact. So that stuff can make a big difference when we look to 2016 when the margin in Michigan, do you remember exactly how many votes it was? It was such a tiny, tiny. Michigan, 100,000-ish. So, so small. So, obviously, it can make a significant difference. Now, Shelby, another thing I'm curious about,

let's first roll this next thought. This is Robert F. Kennedy Jr. talking about what he's been promised in a Trump administration. The key that I think that President Trump has promised me is control of the public health agencies, which are HHS and its sub-agencies, CDC, FDA, NIH, and a few others, and then also the USDA, which is key to making America healthy because we've got to get off of seed oils. Shelby, this is something I actually asked Senator Eric Schmidt, who's a very good friend of J.D. Vance on Undercurrents recently, what it's been like to marry the RFK Jr. camp to the MAGA camp, bringing MAHA and MAGA together. What's Maha? Make America Healthy Again. Oh, okay. So, how are these two very disparate groups? I mean, when I went to the Rescue the Republic rally to

report on it a few weeks ago, I literally saw barefoot hippies and MAGA evangelicals together, like, back slapping and having fun. But internally, on the campaign side, how's everybody getting along in both of these like pretty different universes coming together? I know that there are people on Donald Trump's campaign who are huge fans of Kennedy. And to the point where I've heard, you know, he just talked about positions that Donald Trump has promised him. Whether or not he would get confirmed is an open question, right? You have Merck and Collins on the help committee. They're not going to vote to get Kennedy into any confirmable position. But I've heard that Trump's campaign believes that it is worth the fight. And so if he were to win, I wouldn't be

surprised if there is a fight and a debate over Kennedy being in a confirmable position. But what's also notable is the Maha thing, as you noted. Donald Trump really never mentioned that before Kennedy got on board, but they've really embraced Kennedy's sort of obsession with public health and with, you know, the obesity crisis and with childhood chronic illnesses. And that's what the campaign has added in the last few months upon bringing Kennedy on board. And they're really letting Kennedy sort of run that aspect of their campaign, from my understanding. That's really interesting, actually. Yeah. From my perspective, heightening attention on all of those chronic

problems is a wonderful thing. His solution sometimes like, kind of coming out, not so sure about that. Well, what I think is interesting about it is- At least it's like attention on it. Just the idea of the, like, we all know Republican campaign operatives, and we motley band of heterodox, interesting, eccentrics. That's actually a pretty crazy dynamic, I would imagine. Yeah. And I think it just goes to show, A, how close this presidential race is, but B, how the thinking inside Trump world has really changed. You have Tulsi Gabbard also that they

brought in. So you do have some of these folks that, you know, in 2016, it would have been, it's still eyebrow raising, but in 2016, it would have probably been unheard of. Like, I can't imagine that have happening and have being happened in 2016. And now you're seeing it with Tulsi Gabbard, you're seeing with RFK Jr., you're seeing all of these sort of folks that never would have been involved in a Trump campaign are now involved in a Trump campaign. And they're not only involved, but they really are being embraced by Donald Trump's folks and his longtime aides. While we've got you and we've mentioned Michigan, I'm curious how the campaign is interacting with the kind of Arab American and Muslim American vote. You had a rally recently where they had a decent number of Muslim speakers. The Yemeni American group has endorsed the Trump administration.

This PACPAC, which is hilariously named Pakistan, the American Political Action Committee, they endorsed Trump. I'm curious, like, from internally, how do they think about this kind of unexpected support that they're getting from that community? And do they actually talk about what they would do when it comes to the proximate cause of this support, which is the genocide in Gaza? Do they talk ever, do you ever hear, like, oh, if we win, we actually have to do something about this question? And, like, what would they do? Or is it more like, well, we'll think about that later? I think it's more, and to be clear, this is not like my key focus. So I don't always ask about this. But when I do talk to the Trump campaign about the issues they are most focused on, this is not necessarily in the top three or four, because they look at what the majority of voters

are worried about. And so what you hear them talking about publicly a lot is oftentimes what they're talking about privately, which is the economy, which is the border. Same with the Harris campaign. Exactly. But they're seeing this as a gift. Again, they'll take whatever voters they can get. And so if all of these people are really frustrated at Kamala Harris for her non-action or non-comments and are willing to give Donald Trump a chance, they're totally fine with that. Now, whether or not if Donald Trump wins, that ends up with some sort of serious new legislation that they will like, I'm not totally convinced. Or is it even blunt? So meanwhile, over at Dropsite yesterday, we just reported on this

thing, Project Esther, that the Heritage Foundation is putting out. Right. Which is basically saying we're going to try to round up and deport anybody who's like on a student visa or on any kind of visa and is protesting on behalf of, you know, Palestinian rights. And otherwise do a kind of massive kind of legal and political campaign to dismantle any criticism of Israel. So. If they can connect it to like what's called, like we know how these designations work. Like these dubious sort of, sometimes dubious, sometimes serious connections to terrorism. Right. So there'll be this pressure from that wing of the kind of right. But does the fact that he's up on stage with a bunch of Muslims change that at all or no?

My understanding is that this outrage campaign is being led by Tiffany Trump's father-in-law, right? So these are literal family ties. Yeah, yeah, they're family ties. He's Lebanese, is that right? Yeah. Whether it makes a difference, I don't know, right? I don't know if any, to be clear, I don't know if anything at this point in the race is going to make a significant difference. I think the vast majority of voters have already made up their minds. And for what it's worth, when Donald Trump's campaign is talking about some of those persuadable voters this late in the race, you know, again, James Blair yesterday told me that what they're mostly focused on is a group of younger, under 50, mostly white,

but still like a quarter of them are minorities, men. And so that's the group that they're viewing as the most persuadable for their campaign. So it's not necessarily Muslims, it's not necessarily women, it is men under 50, mostly white, but a solid number of them are black and Hispanic as well. And so that's where they see those persuadable voters a week out of the presidential race.

Well, Shelby, if you couldn't tell, we find your reporting very valuable. We kept going. Tell Ben that so he can see my job. Shelby Talgut, thank you so much for stopping by and giving us some of your time on this very, very busy week. Anytime. All right. We'll be back with more soon.

MAGA pundit Ryan Gerduski has gotten himself booted from CNN. Let's take a look at why, and then we'll talk about where this came from. If you don't want to be called Nazis, stop doing it. You're called an anti-Semite. You've been called an anti-Semite more than anyone else's table. And people will say they're anti-Semite. No, by me. I've never called you an anti-Semite. I mean, I'm not saying or saying. I'm a supporter of the Palestinians.

I'm used to it. Well, I hope your beeper doesn't go off. The thing is, is that. You just say I should die. You should not. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind VoiceOver,

the movement that exploded in 2024. VoiceOver is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover, to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together.

How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding.

But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action. And that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Max Chavkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives. But guests like Business Week editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams, and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the backrooms,

even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children

was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and re-examining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early

and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. Would you support the Palestinian Hamas? Guys, let me stop. I said Palestinian. Are you? Am I what? No, of course I'm not. Palestinians are not. I apologize. Are you a racist, violent person inciting violence against me? Ryan, Ryan.

That's disgusting. That is completely out of pocket. No, I apologize. Good job, CNN. Let's have first block say the Muslim guy should be blown up on TV. Don't say then I apologize. You literally accused him. I thought he said Hamas.

I apologize. You didn't think I said Hamas. I said I'm supportive of Palestinian rights. Yes, I did. Why? Because when you hear Palestinian, think I said Hamas. I said I'm in support of Palestinian rights. Why? Because when you hear Palestinian, you hear Hamas. What's funny is Rudy Giuliani said this yesterday, so you're a great guest to be here to defend Rudy Giuliani. Give me one second.

And so at this point, I can't do this. This is America in 2024. Here's what I will say. Forget the racism. That's right. I should die. I didn't say that. You said, what does BIPA mean?

Don't give me your fake ignorance. I did not say you should die. Why did you say with my beeper goes? What did you mean? What did you mean by the beeper? So what did you mean? What did you mean by the beeper? No, no, no, no, no, no, no.

No, you didn't. You said, I hope your beeper doesn't go off. Brian, stop talking. At least have the guts to support your racist government. Hang on. I'm so sorry. I'm so sorry. I'm going to bring it back.

I'm going to bring it back. This is why yesterday's rally was disgusting. Don't call us Nazis, but I'm going to threaten the brown guys that terrorism killed him. This is why, because I didn't ever say Donald rally was disgusting. Don't call us Nazis, but I'm going to threaten the brown guys, the terrorists, and kill him. Because I didn't ever say Donald Trump was Hitler. But do you know who stood on a stage yesterday and said, I want to come to the Nazi rally? I don't have to make up words and call you something. You're saying it for yourself.

And what you just said right here, apologize, but I will tell you, I don't accept that apology. And you didn't even say it to me. That's fine. I didn't say it to you. That was disgusting. But I can be offended and you didn't even say it to me. That's fine. I didn't say it to you. That was disgusting, but I can be offended when you don't even say it to me. I'm not Puerto Rican, but I was offended by what he said yesterday. And I'm offended that the former president and potentially future president would allow it and go for 12 hours and not say, I don't care. Cause you know what? When Kamala

Harris put out statements about switching up opinions, it wasn't good enough for Republicans. Why are you looking at me? Because you said it. So that'll get me to watch CNN. I'll be honest, Ryan. That was lively. Kind of a cluster. Yeah, that was sort of the reality television version of political news that we've gone so far astray from, but can be entertaining at the very least. So then they came back after the break without him there anymore. Let's go back to Abby Phillip. We're back here. And before we get started,

I want to just address what happened in the last segment. First, I want to apologize to Mehdi Hassan for what was said at this table. It was completely unacceptable. When we get this discussion started, you'll see that Ryan is not at the table. There is a line that was crossed there, and it's not acceptable to me. It's not acceptable to us at this network. We want discussion. We want people who disagree with each other to talk to each other. But when you cross the line of a complete lack of civility, that is not going to happen here on this show. It's a heated time. We're in the middle of a political season. We are eight days from a presidential election. But we can have conversations about what is

happening in this country without resorting to the lowest of the lowest kind of discourse. Want to address that. And I want to apologize to the viewers at home, because we want to be able to hear each other. we want to be able to talk to each other, and we plan to do that in this next segment. And, you know, maybe this is a side note, but one point here. This is not a new dig. No.

So several weeks ago, the National Review ran a political cartoon that had Rashida Tlaib with a pager kind of blown up on her desk. Yeah, we talked about it at the time. And we talked about it at the time. And the way that CNN handled that was actually instead of condemning that cartoon, they picked up on what Michigan Attorney General Dana Nessel said about the political cartoon, which was that she said, just like Rashida Tlaib should not be attacked over her religion, she should not accuse me of charging pro-Palestinian protesters simply because I'm Jewish.

She just completely fabricated and manufactured something that Rashida Tlaib had never said and used that political cartoon as a way to kind of wedge her own grievance against Rashida Tlaib. And then CNN for days just covered Dana Nessel's charge. And then kind of, didn't Dana Bash come out and then kind of make a semi-correction that wasn't a full correction? Yeah, because they had to eventually say, actually, Rashida Tlaib never said that. Right. And they kept saying, well, we reached out to Rashida Tlaib for clarification. I said, clarification what? She didn't say that. Anyway, so it's interesting to then see it on CNN's own air.

I mean, I think it is interesting because we've moderated a debate with Ryan for Zero Hedge a couple months ago. It was on immigration. Yeah, and that guy was unhinged. It turned out similarly to that. He's had some moments on CNN recently, and they kept bringing him back because he is super, super MAGA, ultra MAGA, as they say in the streets. And he is like, totally tries to constantly be flipping the script and going full on offense no matter what, which CNN obviously thinks makes for engaging television. So even though he's ultra-magic, they keep bringing him back and bringing him back. And in this case,

I don't think there's any way he thought Mehdi said that he was pro-Hamas. The idea that Mehdi would go on TV and say- Also, it was Hezbollah, by the way, that they did the pager attack on. That's a great point. The idea that Mehdi would come on TV and just be like, listen, I'm pro-Hamas on a CNN panel. Nobody actually thought that. But what's interesting is Ryan apologized on air, probably because he wanted to keep going back on CNN. So he apologized on air, said that he thought he was pro-Hamas, when actually what he means is that when he says he's pro-Palestinian, Ryan believes that means you're pro-Hamas, which is what the National

Review cartoonist believes. You can make that argument. I don't agree with categorically making that argument, but a lot of people on the right actually do, and that's where that comes from. The apology was pretty pitiful, but also I thought kind of instructive, because you did watch him kind of start to grovel on set. Yes, I agree. He knew he was in trouble. He realized, oh, the thing I just said is not actually defensible. And I can't, and he's like, this is actually going to have consequences for me. Yeah. Oh, yeah.

But the groveling apology was not going to be the way to do it. It reminds me of like, you know, you're about to get called to the principal's office and they're going to call your parents. And you're like, no, that's not, I didn't mean it like that. I was being sarcastic. It really did feel like that. So, yeah, I don't know if we'll be seeing him on CNN's air. No, I think he was totally banned that that's that for me the reason that is I mean is the joke is dumb and then the Outrage is so insufferable too. And it's just like everyone not from me

I mean, I understand it was made directly to Mehdi but from Abby Philip who then also posted a very self-serious Instagram video about it It's like just get over it. Like let's let's move on It was a dumb joke. Right. For many, fine. Like, it was directed at you. It was at him. You get to take offense. Yeah. But, yeah, CNN, you invited this guy on. They knew what they were doing.

Because he does this kind of thing. Yes. You're upset that he went a little bit over the line. Because it made you look bad, not because he went over the line. And you're the one drawing those weird lines where, like, this other insane stuff that he's saying is okay. But this insane thing is not okay. You either want the clash of ideas or you don't. And you either want people to actually, that's the thing. You want people to actually be revealing what they really think. And there,

Ryan revealed what he really thought. And I get CNN needing to say we have to assert some boundaries, whatever. They can do that if they want. It's a business. On the other hand, I just find the moral sanctimony from them afterwards to be a little insufferable. I don't know if you saw this thread, but a former Rising producer had an interesting thread. Did you see this one? I did see this one. For people who missed it, he was making the point that it's difficult to book non-crazy right-wing people. Yeah, I don't know. Which is not entirely untrue. who are on the right and are like hardcore supporters of Trump also either in the past or currently have like Richard Spencer associations, which doesn't, which I think Ryan Gerduski does.

I didn't look into that. Or have said other things where you're like, oh, that's like beyond the pale. It's hard to find, like, since we have moved the pale so far, it's hard to find people who are representative of that pale but not beyond what we consider to be beyond it. So you didn't like that thread or what? Yeah, I thought the thread was kind of bullshit, honestly, because, I mean, there are plenty of times where it would have been hard to book someone who didn't think Donald Trump was a full-blown Russian asset who was watching. But they don't care about that. Well, that's what I'm saying. Because that's within the pale. But that's what I'm saying.

Or who thought that, you know, I could go into all kinds of different issues. I'm thinking particularly of like trans medicine. Right, so I'm basically accepting CNN's premise. Right, which the threat is not. The threat is saying that there's a specific and unique problem on the right, which I don't disagree. I mean, I don't disagree that there are problems on obviously of booking people who are willing to defend both with that. I think it's a problem across the board. I just don't accept. I mean, I think Trump is his own thing. But if anything, I think a lot of the sort of professional pundits on the right are not even representative of the right. So it does mean that there's room for more crazy people than to come in and go through the gates and be

like, well, I'm representative of a real voter because I'm pro-Trump when, you know, that's a lot of Republican voters are not super hardcore MAGA. They just kind of tolerate Trump. Whereas a lot of the punditry absolutely detests Trump and is, you know, pro-Pentagon with every breath they have and is pro-JP Morgan with every breath they have. So it just, to me, it just doesn't reflect what I see. But I guess the way to put it would be that over the last like 15, 20 years, as you've had the kind of the great awokening and the rise of identity politics and a focus on equity as kind of a shared narrative that CNN MSNBC The Times the kind of establishment Press has said look we're turning the page on the Jim Crow era We're moving into an era of equity and people who are not

Willing to be on board for that or those are outside the boundaries Mm-hmm, you can say whatever you want about Russia or whatever else, like that's within healthy civil debate. But outside of civil debate is any, you know, became eventually, you know, if you were opposed to marriage equality. Yeah. Like a lot, that would almost be kind of, now it looks like they're kind of pushing, like letting those people back in a little bit. But they were drawing that boundary. And within the Trump world, lots of his kind of high-level, high-profile supporters would be outside the bounds of that reasonable, what they consider to be civil discourse. Well, and if you're not going to let Tom Cotton publish an essay in the pages of the New York Times, then you're either going to be left with insane people or people who don't represent actual Republican voters. Right. The Tom Cotton example is a good one. Yeah. Yeah. So I just like don't have a lot of sympathy for that worldview

because it just to me is there's so many problems with it. But I mean, Gerduski is out there and CNN was just asking for it. The MAGA component of the, like, if you're a genuine, true believer in Donald Trump, I think that does legitimately present certain problems if you, like, accept some of the 2020 election stuff in a way that's not, you know, like how J.D. Vance talks about the tech interference and the Zuckerberg interference in an election. If you take that, like, almost defensive of Trump platforming Sidney Powell and whomever else, Rudy at the time, I think that does present legitimate problems. In the same way, I think there are legitimate problems for people who fully defend Russiagate and all that stuff. So anyway, those are my thoughts.

All right. All right. Well, up next, Amir Tabon, author of the new book, The Gates of Gaza. Stick around for that. Joining us now from Israel is Haaretz journalist Amir Tabon, author of the new book, The Gates of Gaza. Stick around for that. Joining us now from Israel is Haaretz journalist Amir Tabon, author of the new book, and we can put up E2 here, The Gates of Gaza, which is part memoir, part history of Israel, part history of Israel-Palestine. Terrific book. Amir, thank you so much for joining us. Really appreciate it. Thank you for having me. Yeah. And just to set the context for people. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind VoiceOver, the movement that exploded in 2024. VoiceOver is about understanding yourself outside of sex and

relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together.

How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding.

But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action. And that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Max Chavkin. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives. But guests like Business Week editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams, and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the

backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets.

Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and re-examining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. Well, I don't know if you even remember this. It was so long ago. If we could put up E4 here. This is an old magazine that I co-founded called HuffPost Highline. Amir wrote this really great profile

of the relationship between Benjamin Netanyahu and Barack Obama and how it really collapsed in acrimony over the course of his presidency. And if you squint there, you can see contributed reporting by Ryan Grimm. Indeed. Yeah. Indeed. So Amir and I worked on that story together. And a few collaborations afterwards. I always followed your work from Israel. Amir is one of the best sourced reporters in the political space over there. And I still remember waking up on uh saturday october 7th and because we are

what i guess six hours or so um you know i had like so much had unfolded while uh while we slept in the united states one of the first things that i saw on social media was that you and your family, you know, had been trapped in this safe house in, not safe house, safe room in Nahal Oz, which is the kibbutz, which is closest to the border of Gaza. And I can only imagine how many times you've told this story by this point a year later, and the book is heavily, you know, weaves this story through. But for viewers who are unfamiliar with it, can you just tell them, what is Nahal Haaz? And, you know, briefly, what was October 7th like? And people should really read the book and get the full story, but I wanted people to have the context for this conversation.

Well, thanks for the opportunity to discuss it. And as much as it's not easy to talk about it again and again, I also feel it's an obligation I have. So Nachal Oz is a small Israeli community. You can think of it as a village or a very small town located within the internationally recognized borders of Israel, right across the border from the Gaza Strip. It's home to about 450 people, including my family, me, my wife, and our two young daughters. We have a four-year-old and a two-year-old. And this community was attacked by Hamas on October 7th as part of that widespread Hamas invasion into Israel on that Saturday morning. Within our community, out of 450 people, 15 were murdered on that day. That would be three and a half percent of the total population. So try to think of a small town, a village or a neighborhood in the U.S. losing three and a half percent of the population in one day.

That's basically what happened in Nahal Oz. Seven people were kidnapped from the kibbutz and out of them, five were released alive in late November after more than 50 days held by Hamas. Thanks to the hostage deal orchestrated at the time by President Biden. There are still two hostages from our community, fathers of young children, friends of mine, Omrim Iran and Zahra Idan, who are in the hands of Hamas. My family survived that day, and I tell in the book the story of how and what happened and how we were forced to remain in this little room in complete darkness, no electricity, no food with the two girls, at the time three and a half and two years old, for the entire day basically and keep them

quiet so that the terrorists who were firing in our living room will not hear us. Quite a story. And like you said, Ryan, what I tried to do in the book is to tell that story, but also the history that preceded it and in my analysis led to it, the history of the conflict between Israel and the Palestinians and the relationships across the two sides of the Israel-Gaza border. Yeah, and I have the book open in front of me right now. It's really gripping. There are a lot of people who purport to speak for the victims on October 7th, people who lived through the horrors that you lived through. How different, and even just the people who have been rescued as hostages,

for example, as you mentioned, you're in touch with people. In fact, you are one of the survivors of October 7th. How different do you feel the conversation has been among people who survived that day versus sort of the broader media discourse? And that's such a smart question. And I think that anybody who has lived through an event will often feel that the media coverage of the event is a bit weird. And I've been hearing that for years as a journalist, writing about many different things. I've also covered wars in Ukraine and Syria and the Kurdish region. And this is not necessarily a criticism, but a comment that I've heard from people over the years that when you

are actually part of a story, the way it's portrayed in the media even if it's the greatest reporting and the most professional and accurate description it sometimes feels just a little off and I think that when I talk to my neighbors my friends who survived this attack, or when I talk to friends who lost their loved ones on that day, who had people from their family kidnapped into Gaza, there's just some kind of an understanding between the people who went through this that is very, very hard to summarize in articles or television segments. And I felt like the book was my attempt to also bring that story in more words. It's not a very long book, but still, you know, it offers more space than a

regular newspaper article to describe the events, the emotions, and also the aftermath and the scars that it left on all the people who were there. And so another thing that struck me about October 7th and the victims was the way that, so you can explain more of the kind of political details around, the political kind of texture around this, but a lot of the people in your community and a lot of the other kibbutzim in the surrounding area are kind of left-wing, liberal-leaning people who are supportive of Palestinian rights, Palestinian dignity, opposed to, in general, the occupation, and would like to see a two-state solution, both sides living side by side. Some of them were active in activism within Gaza, like taking patients, because if you're in Gaza and you have a life-threatening illness or

health complication, you need permission of Israeli authorities to travel outside of it. Some would go in and help bring people out. Some of those people ended up being either taken hostage or victims of this. And so it's not as if somebody who has right-wing, terrible politics deserves to be killed as a civilian or taken hostage, but there's something extra kind of poignant about people who are, you know, kind of sympathetic to the Palestinian cause being, and who are deeply hostile to Netanyahu government being the victims of Netanyahu's failure down in the South. And then I was, as I was thinking that through, and I'm curious for your answer to this, Why do those types of people live there in the first place,

like so close to this kind of constant reminder of the horrifying reality of the occupation and the siege? How did that happen? Yeah, I know this is one of the complexities of Israeli politics and society and how it is wildly different in many ways than the politics and the culture of the United States. And just to give perhaps a name and a face to this discussion before I get into the politics of it, you can think as an example of Vivian Silver, a very famous peace activist from Be'eri. He boots 15 minutes from the house, not far from my home. And she was one of the founders of an organization called Women Wage Peace, which was fighting

against the occupation in favor of better relations between Israel and the Palestinians and of attempting to help bring about peace in the region. And she was murdered on October 7 by Hamas, a woman who devoted her life really to promoting peace between Israelis and Palestinians and eventually was murdered by these terrorists in her house in Kibbutz Beiri. Now, if we take her as an example, you can ask Ryan, well, why would a person who has devoted their life really to the purpose of peace decide to live in this border community that to many Israelis is a signal of the need for security and protecting the border

from the enemies on the other side? But in a way that is unique to this conflict and to the geography of this land, the two things to an Israeli would actually really make sense because communities like Nachal Oz, like Be'eri, like Kibbutz Nir Oz, which was also attacked on that day and had the highest number of casualties, people who were murdered or kidnapped, these were communities that were built on the Israeli side of the border, not

within the Gaza Strip, not on disputed land that Israel took after the Six-Day War. And these are not communities that were built out of some desire to, you know, basically strip the Palestinians of their rights, but actually out of the belief that Israel needs to have a border and that on the other side of that border, you can have an independent Palestinian state that we can have peaceful relations with, just like the U.S. has a border with Canada and France today has a border with Germany, although that's a very, very relaxed border. Maybe one day the Israeli-Palestinian border will be the same and we won't even need a passport to move between the countries.

I don't foresee that very soon. It can be an ambition for the future. And so for the people living there, it actually made sense. This ideological Zionist, really, that's the word to use, belief in the importance of strong, secure borders for the state of Israel. And at the same time, use belief in the importance of strong secure borders for the state of israel and at the same time a belief in the necessity of peace and dignity and a good life for the people on the other side because without that we are doomed to constant cycles of war and you talked uh you talk in the book about the decision to move down there from tel aviv in in

2014 and which was around the time we were doing the reporting for that piece. And you talk about how there was this several month long invasion war in 2014, and Nahal Awaz was evacuated during that because it's under constant shelling. And as people thought that the war was approaching a ceasefire, people had been away for so long that they were impatient to return. One family came back early. A shell landed in Nalaus, exploded, went through, shrapped and went through a window and killed, I believe, a four-year-old child who became the face of the tragedy of that war across Israel. And led to then a number of families leaving that community.

And then later that year, you decide you're going to move in. And what struck me, and probably you too as you were writing this, I'm curious, was that this was a horrifying tragedy that captivated the attention of the entire country while dozens of children were killed yesterday in Gaza, kind of namelessly. Not namelessly to the families of those in Gaza, but we're not leading the press coverage with them here in the United States. This is E1. We can put up the footage. It's not international attention and we're approaching probably in Gaza a

similar percentage you talked about three and a half percent of the community being killed the death rate in Gaza may may be that at this point of the but of the two million people and you were talking before you joined here about how because this is still going on, nobody has really had a chance to kind of process what has happened because we're still living through it. So how do you square in your mind the horrific tragedies that you've lived through and that you've witnessed and square them with the kind of exponentially greater scale just a mile away. I'll divide this into three levels, perhaps.

First of all, there is the emotional level. And putting aside the politics and the justifications that Israel had for the war, and to be frank, I supported the war in the beginning after October 7 because I really felt Israel had no choice but to retaliate militarily very strongly to what Hamas did. But I'll get to that in a second. On the emotional level, it's terrible. It's horrendous.

It's an immense tragedy. It's heartbreaking. And, you know, I can go on and on with the words, but, you know, the pictures themselves, I think, speak louder than anything. And by the way, I visited Nachal O many times since October 7. We don't live there at the moment. The kibbutz cannot really be inhabited by families with children. But whenever I go there, I see the destruction on the other side because Nachalot is so close to Gaza that you can really see with your eyes the destruction on the other side of the border. And, you know, I'm not happy about it.

I don't find anything to celebrate about it. I think it's heartbreaking. And I understand also that it will have repercussions for the future because now the Gaza Strip is home to more than two million people who are living among this epic destruction. On the logical level, I do understand that after October 7, Israel had to go to war against Hamas because what Hamas did on that day, you know, massacre of civilians, a breach of the border, and the kidnapping of more than 200 people,

that was not something Israel could just say, well, okay, it happened and now we're moving on, you know, fresh page. We can debate whether the war should now continue or not i'm on the camp that says the most urgent thing to do right now is a deal to end the war and release the hostages and i've been writing this for months actually i've been writing this for months in haaretz and i've been speaking about it in other platforms i really think the, ending the killing and the suffering, and bringing back our hostages to Israel, and allowing the beginning of a process to rebuild, reconstruct, fix the damages on both sides of the border, is really, really urgent. That's the best I can say about it. And then I think on the third level, this is the geopolitical level,

I think we need a plan to rise from this disaster. Because if we spend now all of our time debating who had it worse and who committed bigger crimes, there are no winners in that debate. And it doesn't really lead us to a place where people in Gaza and in Israel can get over this disastrous, horrendous, ongoing event. What we really need is a plan for the day after. Okay, we need to finish the war, release the hostages, and then start thinking about the day after. What do we do to improve the reality in Gaza and in Israel, and to make sure that something like this never happens again. And honestly, right now, that's my biggest concern, apart from the, again, urgency, stopping the killing, bringing back the

hostages, including my two friends. My biggest long-term concern is we don't really have any kind of plan for what comes next and how we avoid this situation repeating itself in a year or two or three down the road. And Ryan, do you want to queue up this clip of you talking to Matt Miller at the State Department briefing yesterday about the UAE and Israel? Yeah, we can get your reaction to this. The mercenaries plan. Yeah, it's part of the mercenaries plan. Yeah, or it appears to be. We can roll this out from the State Department yesterday. Comment earlier on how the letter that you guys sent in mid-October to Israel mentions, you know, suggests that they not pass the UNRWA ban. Right above that, in that same letter, bullet point three of the three

bullet points says that Israel should also end isolation of northern Gaza by reaffirming that there will be no Israeli government policy of forced evacuations of civilians from northern to southern Gaza, ensuring humanitarian organizations have continuous access to northern Gaza through northern crossings and from southern Gaza. Obviously, the 30 days isn't up, but two weeks ago, the situation in northern Gaza was bad. Today, it's utterly dystopian. The opposite of making progress has happened there. Somebody mentioned the 109 civilians killed in this residential building as part of this forced evacuation. So it seems like neither of those two things have happened. And in fact, they've gone the opposite direction. Do you need the 30 days to make an assessment on at least that bullet?

So we have made clear that the situation in northern Gaza, which is what that bullet refers to, needs to change. And Secretary Blinken made clear directly to the prime minister last week that the situation in northern Gaza needs to change, that we need to see everyone in northern Gaza, every civilian in northern Gaza have access to food and water and other humanitarian assistance. And we're going to continue to make that clear. You started with the RSF and the most recent war crimes. UAE is one of the strongest backers of the RSF.

You guys are very tight with the UAE. Why can't the U.S. pressure the UAE to put a stop to this? How long is this going to go on? We have made clear to every country in the region and every country around the world that no country should do anything to prolong this conflict, including providing arms to either of the warring parties. It just seems like countries in that region just aren't interested.

Maybe they listen, but they just don't follow the advice that works. Look, every country makes its own decisions on a host of foreign policy issues. But I can tell you that the thing that the Secretary heard time and time again as we were in the region last week is that partner after partner welcomed our engagement because we are the only ones who could play this critical role of trying to end conflicts in Gaza. So about two weeks ago, there was this big letter from Secretary Austin and Secretary Blinken really laying down the gauntlet. Like these are the things that we really must see

or there are going to be consequences. And two of them that I mentioned there in the State Department, one, do not ban UNRWA and do not do a forced evacuation of northern Gaza. In the two weeks since, they banned UNRWA and they did a forced evacuation of the north. You tell us from the Israeli government perspective, why do they keep doing this? What happened to the U.S. that the U.S. isn't kind of calling the shots anymore here? Or is the U.S. okay with this? First of all, I'll say about UNRWA that this is bigger than the U.S. because on the UNRWA legislation, Israel has also heard from other allies, the U.K., Germany, Arab countries that we have close relationships with. Everybody advocated

against this legislation and the government ignored it. Regarding the forced evacuation in northern Gaza, here I have to say I do think Biden did get something with that warning because the population that was removed from the area of Jebalia, which is north of Gaza City, was not pushed south of the Netsarim corridor, which is today the main dividing line between northern and southern Gaza. And there is this plan advocated by the far right elements of the Netanyahu government to push the population from northern Gaza

across that specific corridor, that road into southern Gaza. That has not happened. And I do think the letter by the secretaries had an impact because the population moved a little south, but still within the boundaries of what we would call northern Gaza. So that's just, you know, to put the difference between the two things. And now on the big picture, Ryan, I'll tell you honestly,

I think that Netanyahu at some point during the war, I would say around December, January, decided to take a bet. And the bet was on Donald Trump winning the election in the United States. And he told himself, I will now suffer through a year of, you know, all kinds of, you know, messaging. And they'll tell me that I'm doing terrible things, you know, and Blinken will call and Biden will call and the State Department will call me out in the briefings. And maybe they'll hold some weapons at some point, which they did for two months before the invasion of Rafah. But at the end of the day, their fear of losing the election to Trump will allow me to get away with a lot of things. And eventually, if he will win,

I could get away with even more. I think this is the bet that he played. We'll know next week if it actually worked out for him. So what does that mean then? Let's say his bet is wrong and Kamala wins. What does that mean for his strategy going forward? I believe if Kamala Harris wins the U.S. election, Netanyahu's government will collapse within a matter of very few months. In order to remain in power, Netanyahu needs to do two things. First of all, it's important for the viewers to understand how

different Israeli politics is than American politics, right? In your politics, you have an election. Every four years, somebody gets elected president, and unless they are impeached or they die, they will serve out their term. In Israel, we have coalition politics. We have a multi-party system, and the prime minister is very powerful, but at the same time can lose power any second if the parties that basically make up his coalition decide they no longer align with him. Netanyahu's survival in power after October 7 relies on two political forces within his coalition, the ultra-religious far right and what we call the ultra-orthodox, which is another very, very religious segment of the Jewish population. Both of these parties have very specific interests and demands from Netanyahu

that require him ultimately to do two things. Number one is to build settlements in Gaza. This is the demand of the far right elements of his coalition. Number two is to significantly weaken the democratic guardrails within Israel, like the Supreme Court and all the other mechanisms that really separate Israel from the attempts by Netanyahu's coalition to weaken Israel's democratic institutions and provide much more power to themselves, to the government. If Kamala Harris wins the election, both of those things will simply not happen. He will not be able to build settlements in Gaza because the US will put a glaring red line on that and there will be no more elections to take into consideration and the fear of being tough on Israel and then losing middle of the road voters for Trump, that will be out the window. Settlements in Gaza will simply not happen and she will be able

to use leverage to stop that in ways that I think Biden has been hesitant or fearful of doing because of the election. And the same goes for crushing the democratic institutions inside Israel, which is really necessary for these ultra-religious parties because they want to reshape the country. So I think that from his point of view, he knows pretty much that if she wins, his coalition collapse, he will not be able to fulfill the demands of his partners. If Trump wins, honestly, it's anyone's bet what will happen. I mean, the guy is so unexpected, so unstable, has a history on specifically on the Israeli issue, by the way, of, you know, saying one thing

and then saying the opposite and doing, you know, I mean, everything is up in the air. But I do believe that Netanyahu thinks he can get away with a lot more with Trump and that he can sell to him the settlements in Gaza as condos on the beach, which know, think about Trump. And that Trump really wouldn't care if Israel became more like Russia and less like the Western democracy that it wants to be. He wouldn't shed a tear. So that's Netanyahu's gamble, basically. And so if Kamala wins and Netanyahu's government does collapse subsequently, what political forces are arrayed to be able to replace it? Like what comes next if that happens? Do those two forces in the far right have enough other access to power or would there be some type of center right, Yair Lapid situation? What replaces him?

It would not be replaced by a left-wing progressive government. I can tell you as a left-wing Israeli this is not realistic right now, not at all. But I do believe there could be a center-right government that would be more like the government we had in Israel for about a year and a half after Netanyahu lost power in 2021 and before his comeback in late 2022. It was a centrist government that had a moderate right-wing element and moderate left-wing element. And it was, in terms of policy, much more, let's say, careful and certainly on internal issues, much less provocative and extreme. And I do believe that a coalition like that could rise to power again in Israel,

and it will not include Netanyahu himself or the far-right ultra-religious elements that he relies on to have power. It could, by the way, include once again a party representing a segment of the Arab Muslim population in Israel. That previous government we had about two years ago, it was historical in one sense that there was a cooperation there between right-wing, centrist, left-wing parties,

and also one party representing Arab Muslim citizens of Israel. And even after the shocks of October 7 and the war, I can still see that configuration returning. But, you know, all of this is hypothetical. First of all, we have to see what happens in your election, and then we get to a point where Israel also has an election. We still don't have confirmation about any of it. Would that post-Netanyahu government move toward ending the war? I think the war... It seems like the support... Tell me if I'm wrong.

The support for continuing the war seems almost universal. Not universal, but close to it. It's complicated. I think most Israelis, if you just ask them right now, do you agree to stop the war, they will say no.

But if you ask them, do you agree to stop the war in return for a deal that brings us back all the hostages? Polling in Israel shows an overwhelming majority for this position. We're talking some polls have it in the high 50s, others in the 60s, and I've even seen in the 70s in terms of percentage of the population that would say, okay. You know, regardless of the fact that there are still terrorists in Gaza, of course, I mean, look what's happening there. But regardless of the fact that there's still a threat to Israel from other enemies in the north, in the east, we have 100 hostages there.

And if we don't bring them back soon, they are all going to die. And we will not even be able to locate some of their graves because the people who held them are also dying in the war so when you present it like that you actually have a majority the israeli society that will say okay for a deal that brings us back the hostages we are willing to stop this war the problem is that for netanyahu stopping the war basically means losing power. If he stops the war, the far right elements in his coalition immediately bring down the government. And it's heartbreaking and enraging, but in making the choice between his own political

survival and the fate of the hostages, he has made his choice. And it's not the patriotic Zionist, you know, Israel loving choice that I would expect the leader of this country to make and to, you know, to prioritize the lives of our hostages. Well, we'll see how it goes. And Amir, we'd love to have you back on. Amir is one of the best sourced reporters, I think, in Israeli politics. And the book is called The Gates of Gaza. Whether you agree or disagree, wherever you sit on the spectrum, I think it's – not only is it a gripping read, but it's – I think you'll come away understanding more about the situation. Absolutely. Thank you so much, guys, for, understanding more about the situation. Absolutely. Thank you so much, guys, for having me. Really appreciate it. Well, on Undercurrents this week, over on the Undercurrents YouTube channel,

I hosted Senator Eric Schmidt for a conversation about the election, just to do a sort of mood check, similar to what we did with Shelby earlier in the show. But Schmidt is a personal friend of J.D. Vance. They were called by CNN, or Schmidt was called by CNN, arguably his closest friend in the Senate. They were both entering around the same time and similar ages. So Schmidt's been campaigning with J.D. Vance. And I wanted to throw a couple of questions of him about what's happening behind the scenes of the campaign. And one question I had was just, have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation.

To most people, I'm the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. Voiceover is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. Thank you. feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together. How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now.

Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of times the big economic forces we hear about on the news show up in our lives in small ways. Three or four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding. But the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. The demand curve in action. And that's just one of the things we'll be covering on Everybody's Business from Bloomberg Businessweek. I'm Max Chavkin.

And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. Every Friday, we will be diving into the biggest stories in business, taking a look at what's going on, why it matters, and how it shows up in our everyday lives. But guests like Businessweek editor Brad Stone, sports reporter Randall Williams, and consumer spending expert Amanda Mull will take you inside the boardrooms, the backrooms, even the signal chats that make our economy tick. Hey, I want to learn about VeChain. I want to buy some blockchain or whatever it is that they're doing. So listen to everybody's business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss

camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series,

we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment and re-examining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. You know, the closing message of the Drain the Swamp movement in 2024 taking place at Madison Square Garden with a billionaire like Elon Musk, with Lutnick, so somebody who's a titan of Wall Street, lots of wealthy celebrities. And so I wanted to ask Senator Schmidt if he thinks that that risks undermining the Drain

the Swamp anti-establishment central message of the Trump campaign. Here's what he had to say. I do want to say, though, from the standpoint of someone kind of on the populist right, I wonder, that's where I'm coming from, I wonder if you think that Donald Trump's kind of drain the swamp message is at all undermined in the minds of voters when you're trotting out celebrities, billionaires from Silicon Valley, and also, I think it was Howard Letnick, the Wall Street kind of CEO. Does that hurt the drain the swamp message? Does it worry you as somebody who has come to this from a position of sort of an anti-establishment position when it comes to the economy as well?

Is there anything to that? I don't think so. I think it's bringing new people into the fold. I mean, one of the markers of the movement over the last, whatever, six, seven, eight, almost 10 years now, is that new people have entered the process, right? They're frustrated with things that have happened. Its system hasn't worked for them. To the extent you've got like Elon Musk, who I think he's voted Democrat most of his life, or at least recently, he's seen the excesses of the left.

He's seen what they really want to do. And I think that more than even R or D or red Jersey or blue Jersey, in some ways, where we're at now is kind of this permanent Washington Democrat allies in the media and Democrats themselves as this sort of alliance, this establishment alliance versus the disruptors, the people who want to see real change. And I think that that bodes well in this election cycle that's seen as an election cycle and Trump's viewed by like a two to one margin. OK, but remember the case Missouri v. Biden that was kicked off by Eric Schmidt when he was the attorney general of Missouri, which was pushing against censorship, obviously. And when it was changed into a bigger case, the Supreme Court ended up losing just in the last term.

Donald Trump has been talking about his conversations with Google CEO, who is allegedly, according to Trump, been calling to kind of butter him up. And Matt Stoller, friend of the program, has been saying this is a worrying sign for mega populists. Let's listen to Eric Schmidt responding to a question about that. Trump also keeps mentioning the story about how the CEO of Google has called him a couple of times to say that his McDonald's trip was like through the roof on Google. They haven't seen searches like that forever. And some on the left have said, is this a sign that, you know, there's Trump is warming up towards Google, that Google is warming up towards Trump. Some people have said that with the Washington Post non-endorsement as well, that Jeff Bezos didn't want to frustrate Donald Trump. You're kind of one of the antitrust guys. You've really helped the Republican Party get tougher on big tech in particular. Does any of that worry you? Do you worry that Donald Trump would go soft on big tech in another administration? Or is it sort of like what you said before? It's a

bigger tent and a new coalition. Yeah, I wouldn't be too concerned about that. I think that some of those big tech giants ought to be a little bit concerned because their behavior has been exposed. You mentioned kind of my role in that. When I was attorney general in Missouri, we brought that Missouri versus Biden censorship lawsuit that exposed even before the Twitter files. This is before Elon Musk bought Twitter. It was further amplified by the Twitter files. But what we found in the discovery in that case, this is back in 2022, was shocking. I mean, you had direct communications between high ranking Biden administration officials with, you know, vice presidents in these organizations that can control content, take this down.

Okay, we'll do it. What else can we do? I think kind of COVID exposed a lot of these excesses. People were shut down. They were shut out. They were trying to be silenced. The kind of counterculture tendency that a young person might have to be a contrarian. Look, the Democrats have adopted this position along with some of the

biggest companies in the history of the world to kind of shut down and silence people. And you hear Elon Musk talk about it. J.D. talks about it and others. But I certainly saw that firsthand in that lawsuit. So I'm not sure what their game plan is afterwards. But to the extent they're working with government or abusing their own rules to shut people down, they ought to be concerned because we ought to have some reforms in that regard. So nothing super explosive there, Ryan, but I do think some of these questions about Donald Trump's closing message involving talking about getting buttered up by the Google CEO and cavorting with one of the most powerful men, if maybe the most powerful man in the entire world, a massive government contractor, somebody who's benefited from a lot of taxpayer subsidies like Elon Musk has, it's a tension for sure in his messaging. And the other thing Schmidt said is that it feels, quote, more like 2016 than 2020 to him on the ground. He feels like this campaign is going in the right direction

for Trump at the right time with about a week to go. And that's similar to what Shelby said she's hearing from the Trump camp internally. They're, quote, cautiously optimistic is what she reported here earlier in the show. So they don't seem to be worried that it's backfiring. But I don't know. I feel like I feel like Trump has just dropped a lot of the economic populism that J.D. Vance kind of likes. The best example was, to me, the speech he gave where his campaign advertised that he's going to go out and he's going to talk about how he's going to defend Social Security. He's going to defend Medicare. He's actually going to expand Medicare. He's even going to make the Affordable Care Act better. Mm-hmm. He's gonna do tariffs. He's gonna like, you know, crack down on, you know, people are ripping us off with our trade deficit.

That was the theme of the speech and it was written and he read it from a teleprompter. But he would pause on the teleprompter every now and then to do a riff on the lurid details of victims of crime by illegal immigrants. Right. And when he would pause there, he would pause for a half an hour and just go in on that point, that issue, and he would become animated. You could tell, like, this is the thing that was really getting him excited. And he felt like the crowd was with him on this one. And then he'd get back to, you know, and I'll bring down your co-pays and I'll, you know, I'm going to go after big pharma and I'm going to.

It actually reminds me of the Harris campaign in a way we talked about earlier that they get really animated when they're talking about how Trump is a fascist. And then they kind of like, we'll get into the meat and potatoes too. You know, like everyone is really, I mean, it's understandable, right? Like everyone feels like this is an existential moment. And so they get really caught up in those particular arguments. Yeah. And my, yeah, my right-wing populism can either be like this economic nationalistic part of it that, you it that Steve Bannon has talked about. Yeah. Or it can be the other Steve Bannon element, which is just going after the other.

And it feels like they're leaning into the other. Well, there's a Leninist component to what Steve Bannon wants to do in the kind of heighten the contradiction sense, meaning you have to otherize people and then you open gates, and then you just don't do any of the economic stuff because the corporate capture is so strong in Washington. And I mean, the Trump campaign is signaling that might genuinely be the dynamic if he has another administration, because to your point, he still talks about his potential 200% tariff. That's what he said at Madison Square Garden on certain items that are trying to revive American manufacturing. You hear him talk about that stuff. But Stoller actually went back and looked at his speeches from 2016 and compared them to his speeches in 2024.

And you can see pretty clearly when he pulls out excerpts that the economic populism of 2016 is muted this time around. It is just not a central feature of the messaging like it was in 2016. Right. And Democrats were always dismissive of it and would joke that economic anxiety doesn't have anything to do with why people are supporting Trump and that it's actually just code for racism and bigotry and xenophobia. But now you don't even get the code. Like he's pulled out, he's stripped out the code. It's just the straight xenophobia. I mean, there's still, I mean, still some, some of it is still there. It's just, he's not. Yeah. The tariff stuff's there.

It's a question as to what. Which might be enough. That's what I think was interesting about the Eric Schmidt thing is like, the question is, what do they do? Like, is the messaging indicative of something that would happen differently? And Schmidt has talked about his potential attorney general. So for him not getting any of these questions, I mean, I thought it was important just to hear what he would say to that question because nobody's asking those questions from the sort of conservative point of view. Like, are you abandoning what MAGA was supposed to be about on the economic front? It's just constantly taking Trump's bait and asking

questions about culture war and blah, blah, blah. But they're not feeling the heat about what their voters might want to actually see them do if they take office. And he's- As you mentioned, the billionaires would rather they talk about immigrants. If you're outsourcing a department to Elon Musk, who has a million conflicts of interest, come on, there's some legitimate questions to be raised there. Yeah.

All right, so Friday's show will be an actual show. And it's exciting too. This coming Friday. We will have Chris Lansager as well. We are kindly hosting- Last Friday before as well. We are kindly hosting. Last Friday before the election. We're kindly hosting them. We're going to do a real show.

We extended an invitation to Crystal and Sagar out of the kindness of our own hearts. And said, hey, you guys, we're doing this show. Join us. You guys want to come on? We'll get their take. You can get some exposure. It would be good to get them in front of people. People want to hear what they have to say, I'm sure.

If you want to hear more on that, they'll be back here tomorrow morning. That's right. But that's our Friday show. And we've got all kinds of fun election coverage next week. So BreakingPoints.com if you want to become a premium subscriber and support the show. Otherwise, we'll see you back here on Friday. All right. See you then. Have you ever thought about going voiceover?

I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. I'm also the girl behind Boy Sober, the movement that exploded in 2024. You might hear that term and think it's about celibacy, but to me, Boy Sober is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's flexible, it's customizable, and it's a personal process. Singleness is not a waiting room.

You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A lot of times, big economic forces show up in our lives in small ways. Four days a week, I would buy two cups of banana pudding, but the price has gone up, so now I only buy one. Small but important ways. From tech billionaires to the bond market to, yeah, banana pudding.

If it's happening in business, our new podcast is on it. I'm Max Chastain. And I'm Stacey Vanek-Smith. So listen to Everybody's Business on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, the unexpected, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves. This medal is for the men who went down that day. On Medal of Honor, Stories of

Courage, you'll hear about these heroes and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.