Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 10/7/25: Trump Floats Ghislaine Pardon, Tim Dillon Flames Troops In Chicago, DHS Shoots American

Episode Date: October 7, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss Trump considers Ghislaine pardon, Tim Dillon flames troops in Chicago, Trump DHS shoots US citizen.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. I'm Bridget Armstrong, host of the new podcast, The Curse of America's Next Top Model. I've been investigating the real story behind that iconic show. I ended up having anorexia issues, bulimia issues,

by talking to the models, the producers, and the people who profited from it all. We basically sold our souls, and they got rich. If you were so rooting for her and saw her drowning, what did you help her? Listen to The Curse of America's Next Top Model On the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

What's up, everybody? It's snacks from the trap nerds in all October long. We're bringing you the horror. We're kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified. Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror in Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die further. And it's the return of Tony's horror show, SideQuest written and narrated by yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with

commentary. And we'll cap it off with a horror movie battle royale. Open your free IHard radio app and search trap nurse podcast and listen now. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the psychology podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome. Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denials is easier. Complex problem solving takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about

what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Turning now here to Washington, as we may have to remind you, the government is still shut down. Nobody really seems to hear. But one of the underrated parts of that government shutdown is that the house is not swearing in a new member. And apparently, that is part of a scheme

to prevent her from voting for a release of the Epstein files. The speaker, Mike Johnson, was pressed on this on Meet the Press. Let's take a listen. Representative Grahalva, who won a special election last week in Arizona. She's yet to be sworn in. I know you're not in session, but you've sworn in Republicans out of session. Why not her? Does it have anything to do with Jeffrey Epstein?

Well, the House is not on the floor doing business this week, but we will do it immediately early next week as soon as everyone returns to town. We have to have everybody here, and we'll swear her in. I congratulate her on her win. She's replacing her father, who had a long history here, and she'll be a productive member of Congress. We look forward to that. We look forward to her as a member of Congress, but just not immediately because of reasons.

Exactly. It definitely doesn't have anything to do with Epstein. I don't know if that question's going to fly under the new Barry regime. Good point. See? This is the issue. That's great. Yeah, we can all look forward to the new CBS Mossad special over on 16.

It's going to be great. Let's go and put this up here on the screen, shall we? Some major update from the Supreme Court, at the very least, who rejected Galane Maxwell's appeal to overturn her conviction. The conviction, we just got to remember, the way that Galane was fighting this in court is that because Epstein got his sweetheart deal in 2007, part of the non-prosecution agreement was that the government will never prosecute you or any of your co-conspirators. So Galane argued in court that the government took back its word. The only reason that any of us even really know anything about the whole Epstein case is because that agreement was ruled invalid because they did not notify the victims of the agreement. That's all they had to do and they never did it. So a judge struck that down in 2018. That's part of the reason that we know anything really about the case and a lot of stuff actually came out into the public. So that has been the heart of Galane's legal strategy to get out of this, except for, except for the new play for a pardon. A pardon from Donald Trump, who was asked about this actually in the Oval Office yesterday.

Let's go ahead and play D4. Let's take a listen. That means her only chance of getting out of prison is a pardon from you. Is that something you're... Who are we talking about? Billing Maxwell. You know, I haven't heard the name in so long. I can say this, that I'd have to take a look at it.

I would have to take a look. Did they reject that? She wanted to appeal her conviction. And what happened? They said that they were not going to hear her appeal. I see. Well, I'll take a look at it. I will speak to the DAJ.

I have a lot of people who have asked me for pardons. I call them Puff Daddy has asked me for a pardon. But she was convicted of child sex trafficking. Yeah, I mean, I'm going to have to take a look at it. I have to ask DOJ. I didn't know they rejected it. I didn't know she was even asking for it, frankly. I didn't know anything.

I'm going to have to ask D.O.J. I haven't heard of her name. Why don't you just rule it out? I don't know. Just rule it out. It's so weird. Because it's like the old days. I mean, you know, wow.

because he's afraid of what she might say if he's not at least playing ball with her. I mean, that's the reason clearly she got moved to this club-fed situation. And suddenly the Lisa Wall Street Journal about the birthday book and whatever else, suddenly those things stopped. So he feels that he needs to at least play ball.

And I would not be shocked at all if she ends up getting her pardon. Maybe it's at the end of this Trump administration when he's done and all is said and done or whatever. But I would not be shocked at all if he ends up pardoned. If she got pardoned, I'll be honest. That would actually be genuinely shocking. I think probably what would happen is that he'll string it along for the entire time to kind of keep her at bay and keep the hope alive and then maybe till the end. But look, you're not wrong. I mean, who the hell knows, the question is still, and this is always the issue. And this is where people who are like, this is to distract from the Epstein files, I don't think they're 100% right, but they're not conceptually wrong in that the longer this plays out. And the more there is a little bit of a drip, drip, drip. It can satisfy some of the curiosity. They just want it to go away. That's what they want

more than anything. And what we all have to bank on is that there is at least some constituency that will remain there to push on it. Right now, some of that's Democrats. A lot of it is also Thomas Massey. There's some people, at least in the Senate and others, who have pushed this forward. But without a sustained amount of pressure, we just can't have that. That's part of the reason why it's so important to force this vote, because that would force the government to have to not only have to comply sometime in the future, but you can follow up on that. If the Democrats take Congress after the midterms, they can subpoena. They can continue up to go after.

And this is the great folly in not just releasing the damn files in the first place. And so let's go ahead, for example, put D3 up on the screen. And this kind of shows the fear. There's this new representative who won the special election. She says, I can't see another reason. It doesn't change the majority. Democrats are still in the minority. that seems to be the only outstanding issue I can see. It feels a little personal, specifically

talking here about the Epstein vote. And one of the things actually that's kind of counterintuitive is that because there's a government shutdown, if she was sworn in and that's the only thing that would happen, then it would be a huge story. And so they need to make sure that it's just put at bay as long as possible. Recall, they took an entire month off and ended House early, specifically with no votes just to delay this vote with the with the hope oh nothing will come out you know we got the birthday book great i guess i mean you know nothing particularly revelatory there's still a lot more that needs to come out from it but that's my fear is that the longer that this goes on there's no sustained political pressure and they just wanted to die out that's all the white house wants is for this

die and you know by and large most people have complied uh epstein itself you know it's not trending anymore where it's not like a number one thing. I think most people are still aware. But what, you know, it's number four on our list. Obviously, Venezuela is very important, right? These aren't just distractions. Yeah, these are not distracting. This is a real shit.

We actually might overthrow a government in Venezuela. And so that is what they're hoping for more than anything on this story. Yeah, it's just that time goes by and people move on. And nothing significant enough to put it right back in the news cycle comes out. That's what they're banking on and praying for. And, you know, the fact that Mike Johnson is going, to such great lengths to keep from seating this one member of Congress when, you know, the House already passed their budget.

So, you know, it's not like there's a close margin on these other things. The House Republicans, as she points out, they still have the majority, whether she's there or not. So the only thing that it really is consequential for is this one very close vote with regard to the Epstein files. So, yeah, I mean, and this isn't the first time that Mike Johnson has moved heaven and earth to keep this vote on the release from going forward. Yeah.

And, you know, it's also sad. It's a sad commentary on the number of Republicans who just go along. There's, to my eye, there's like two. Marjorie Taylor Green and Thomas Massey. That's it. Everybody else is basically playing ball on this. I do want to give a shout out to Marjorie. She had a more recent tweet about insurance.

I saw that. And you know, did you see Trump made some comments about maybe he was going to make a deal with Democrats on health care? Yes. So it may actually end up being Trump that blinks on the health care thing with regard to the shutdown. I mean, it's not surprisingly possible. at all. Does it take a genius to figure out the doubling of insurance premiums

will be politically bad? Is not going to be great for Republicans? Yeah. Yeah. What? It's like, it's just so funny because it's the same thing that happened to Obama. What screwed Obama on Obamacare was the whole if you like your doctor, you can keep your doctor and didn't happen. Everybody, a lot

of people's insurance premiums went sky high right around the time of the midterm elections and immediately afterwards, which is what screwed him. If he had a better opponent, I think he would have lost 2012. He could have lost easily on that alone. If you increase price directly attributable to legislation, you are an idiot politically. So, yeah, in some ways the Democrats are almost trying to do them a favor, but maybe they have read them too well to know that they would never buckle on this. And so they'll just

let it roll. But it seems that Trump himself may actually blink on the health insurance premium thing, which, by the way, would be a good thing for the two Obamacare subscribers here. Yeah. Well, and we didn't get to this yesterday, but just worth pointing out, the analysis from Kaiser Family Foundation says that more than three and four ACA marketplace and rollies live in states won by Trump. Oh, of course. So most of the people who would, who are going to get screwed when premiums go up are actually, you know, in Trump states. Well, people who are on Obamacare. We're the prototypical example. It's either the small business owner without a ton of staff or it's people who will work in jobs that don't offer health. health care, right? Yeah. And that's like the, that's exactly what the Trump coalition was was in 2024. That's what Steve Bannon always talked about with Medicaid. If you look at the

Medicaid recipients, like, who do you think these people are? If people over $100,000 of your vote in Democrat, they're getting employer sponsored health insurance. They don't give a shit about Obamacare. It's people at the lower end of the spectrum. Those are the ones who get screwed. Same on Medicaid. So this is, this look, I mean, we could go on forever about. Yeah. Republican Party and their own idiocy around the issue of health care. But yes, you are exactly correct about this, because you can see how they both recognize it's a political issue, but they don't want to buckle. And so they may walk themselves into a political disaster come the midterms. Or maybe they just don't care.

I've never been able to figure these people out. I don't know what possible reason they think they're going to win re-election. Like for what? For a tax cut? No Epstein? Okay. Well, you know, we'll see. It is Matt Jones.

Now, I'm Drew Franklin. And this is NFL Cover Zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my. We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining.

And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional.

It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for a kind of years. you carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence. That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other Native stories, such as the creation of the first Native Comic-Con or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream.

Listen to Burn Sage Burn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers or I get students who would be like, It's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use

unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just like walk the other way.

Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denials is easier. drinking is easier, yelling, screaming is easy. Complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Should we get to the National Guard? Yeah, let's talk about this.

So Tim Dillon had a bit on Trump using American cities as training grounds for the troops. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that. We don't need the Marines in Chicago. I agree. the Democratic Party is in a terrible job with public safety. But the idea that we're going to have the Marines in Chicago

and we're going to be so let me get this straight. I'm just trying to understand this. Again, I'm a college dropout. The money to build the educational institutions and the

infrastructure in America, things like hospitals, things we need, that gets shipped to Israel. The Marines and the National Guard get sent into the cities where that money could have been used to better the lives of the people. That seems to make no sense. I think Democrats should be taking notes from this and Tim Dillon and how to frame what's going on because that was pretty effective messaging about where the administration's priority seemed to be. Yeah, I agree with you, but then they would have to agree with not sending arms to Israel. So we're not there yet, right?

I mean, you're getting there. First you have to get to the point. Well, I'm not so sure because I've always wondered this, this whole, this, it's always been more of a Republican talking point. But considering how Dems freaked out about USAID, it's like, is it really going to be kind of a core messaging conception about spend money here and not abroad? I don't know. It's just more of an interesting intellectual question, but I don't disagree with him literally whatsoever about the foreign aid question. And specifically, I mean, the funny thing is when you talk to the pro-Israel defenders and all of them, they're always like, it's not that much money. It's only $3 billion a year. But Tucker actually recently had a great segment where he broke down the totality of the amount of money sent not just to Israel in terms of aid, but also to Egypt so they don't go to war with them. Israel, but then also all of the billions that has cost just since October 7th to defend them for that price, you actually could quite unironically rebuild much of America's have infrastructure points.

You can certainly afford some ACA subsidies at the very least. You can definitely. You know, there's a lot of uses for that money here at home, no doubt about it. And just a couple of updates with regard to the National Guard deployment. So we covered yesterday that the judge in Oregon, Trump appointed judge in Oregon, and said, you can't federalize the National Guard here, either the Oregon National Guard or the California National Guard or the Texas National Guard or any other National Guard that you have in mind put in a temporary restraining order. J.B. Pritzker also took the

administration of court to try to block the use of, they want to use the Texas National Guard. I think this is insane. Using, calling in Red State National Guard into a blue state against blue state citizens, I think this is an incredibly dangerous escalation. So in any case, Pritzker went to court to try to also get a temporary restraining order against that. That judge is now allowing that federalization of troops and deployment into Chicago to go forward. We also had Trump yesterday saying he would consider invoking the Insurrection Act, quote, if it was necessary, particularly if the courts or state and local officials,

delay his plans to deploy the National Guard. So just escalating the tension, escalating the tension, trying to provoke some sort of a crisis, some sort of a confrontation, we're already saying, Many of those flay out. You know, the apartment raid that happened, some of the residents of that building are still missing. You also have a number of people who have been picked up by ICE. I'm talking thousands of people who have just vanished their family members. I have no idea where they are.

Lawyers haven't been able to get in touch, et cetera. But, you know, they're ratcheting up the pressure, ratcheting up the pressure, and sending in Red State National Guard to Blue Cities seems to me like an absolutely insane move. It says here that the deployment would be some 200. guard troops from Texas, which would be for the same justification about federal property, right? So this is where they, it's never, it's to crush crime, which is here in D.C. is the whole, is for crime.

Yeah. Not the protection of federal property. But then in Chicago, the messaging is about crime, but it's actually to protect ICE or it's for deportation. Yeah. It's like, what are we doing here? I don't know. I mean, I think the entire thing is totally crazy.

In terms of the Insurrection Act, as you said, was invoking the Insurrection Act, which has not yet been invoked, and that was part of the original thing that they were doing. Part of the justification, the invocation here is around protecting federal property, right, which is the allowing to do some, what, you're going to have to correct me here, because I'm still very confused on the convoluted nature. They're allowed to protect and assist law enforcement, but cannot carry out law enforcement action, period. Correct. Whenever they are deployed under this authority. Well, you're not wrong to be confused because the line is very hard to draw. So, like, for example, if they're involved in crowd control, is that civilian law enforcement. If they're backing up ICE, I would say that does constitute civilian law enforcement. So the line is blurry, and of course, the Trump administration pushes it as far as they can.

DC is a bit of a special case because of the different, you know, laws here, et cetera. But if we see what they were doing in California, there were certainly instances where, you know, it appeared that they were doing domestic law enforcement actions, which should be illegal under posse comitatis. But, you know, putting all of that, like, aside, what we're seeing in these, in Chicago and Portland are the main focus right now, is this just mass show of force. And, you know, I'm about to cover this shooting by a Customs and Border Patrol agent. You know, it was already clear that they lied about key details. some of the details are still murky, but already clear that they lied about it. But this agent shot this woman and, you know, and appears to have done it and said, you know, do something, bitch, and then shoots her. So these are things that are already happening. And that's before we bring in the National Guard. Again, you know, you think that they believe this is politically like popular for them. I think that they are intentionally try to provoke a crisis like they want to get to the Insurrection Act. And their MO has been for the, the beginning of this administration, that they use either real or imagined or generated crises to try to consolidate more and more power.

And so when I zoom out from just these individual deployments or what they're, you know, alleged to be intending to do with them, and you see the, you see the law firms, you see the universities, you see the kidnapping of students, you see the crushing of dissent, you see the consolidation media power, you see all of the, you see the strikes on the Venezuela boats, you see the declaration of war against drug traffickers, and you put it all together, that's where I think this is a piece of the broader puzzle versus, you know, like, we shouldn't

look at it in isolation. It's just going to say. I don't blame me for thinking that. I think the only reason I come from it this way is because I now know how stupid many of the people who are involved in this are. You would not try to take a fascist takeover a city with 200 troops from Texas. Instead, you would do a larp of saying, look at these awesome

Texas troops, and you would produce ICE pornography for boomers on your Osmo cameras, which are apparently following them around, right? Now, listen, you can say one is really bad, which I think a lot that is bad, but that's not the same thing as martial law in a city. Okay? Yeah. And so this is kind of what I'm trying to get out here is at the end of the day, you can you can say what is happening is extraordinary, et cetera, but contextualized to say, we're talking about 200 troops from the Texas National Guard, all of whom are going to surround

an ice building and do basically nothing. I mean, that's just not, that's not, that's not, I think that's an important distinction. I'm not saying it's not crazy, but it's not a martial law declaration takeover of Chicago with Humvees in the streets. Right. Yes. And I think it's important to point that out. And also to say, you know, when we're talking about like free speech and the crushing of speech, it's not that like we're being critical of the Trump administration on the show right now. It's not that they have perfect and complete absolute power. It's that they want people to have to think twice. They want to make an example of a few people. They want to chill the ability to speak freely. And there's

some evidence that this has been successful. I mean, with regard to the protests of there's a whole cottage industry of Democrats in particular love to point out like, oh, there's so many fewer like pro-Palestine protests now. And there's a variety of reasons for that. But one of them, there are protests still going on. But I think it's fair to say, not as widespread as they were at one point during the Biden administration. There are a variety of reasons for that. But one of them is because people are afraid, like people are afraid of being targeted for pro-Palestinian activism. I've actually always found that such a stupid talking point. Yeah, nobody on the right gives a shit what a Palestinian protester has to say.

If anything, it's good for them. Definitely true. They can point at some pink-haired weirdo and be like, look, this is our opposition. That's good for Israel, right? The reason they protested under Biden was because they're part of the political coalition. Because they thought they might actually be able to put pressure on Biden. And then there's also just a level of fatigue where it's October 7th now. We're two years into, you know, this genocide.

So all of that. But I do think part of it, too, you have to take into account that, you know, they watched Ramesa Ozturk get kidnapped off. the street. They saw Mahmood Khalil be held in detention center and not be able to be present for the birth of his child. And they've seen, you know, students be expelled from universities after being pressured from the Trump administration to do all of that. So it is important as we see these escalations that, you know, you're right. It's not the caricature of like, oh, they roll in the humbys and they just take over Chicago. But there is a show of force here that is meant to be

coercive. And that is what the, you know, the ice part is partly a show of force. It's partly about, obviously, like, rounding up random immigrants. The National Guard deployments are also meant to be a show of force. It's also meant to be content creation for, like, you know, fascist boomer porn. It is all of those things. I think a lot of it is heightening contradictions, too, because what it demonstrates for the purposes of Chicago, let's say, you have Brandon Johnson who's declaring ice-free zones, right? saying, oh, well, Chicago police are not going to help you. That's like catnip for Republicans, right? Because I can say, look, this mayor won't even allow the police to cooperate with ICE,

which, I mean, I do think is kind of crazy in this whole sanctuary city thing. But courts have ruled, I guess it's legal. It doesn't make any sense to me. Same in Portland. They've basically declared they're like, no, we're not going to help ICE or we're not going to come to their defense or whatever for federal property, which this is the justification on the feds. They want the narrative out there, that Pritzker and Brandon Johnson and them are pro-crime and pro-illegal. And at the very least, haven't done anything about it. And so this is the people who are trying to restore law and order. Again, if I were you, if I were somebody who looked at this from the outside and wasn't as intimately familiar with some of the genuine retards who are the

people running this, I would also be deeply suspicious. So I do not blame anybody who is out there. what I have come to understand is much of this, as I said about the 200 Guardsman and that, is genuinely about content to appear as tough so that we can have fun conversations amongst various people on Twitter and to basically have Fox News B-roll that can roll everywhere without supposedly going the full way. Now, can I rule out the full way at this point? No. Right. It's not that I'm not ruling that out whatsoever, but I don't think that. That's the actual plan.

Quite, literally quite a lot of this is about social media, which is sick. I agree. Okay, it's sick to actually have to be where we are right now because of it. But that's, I guess, a bigger part of the conversation. Yeah, I mean, I think it's both, right? I mean, I think the content creation is an important part of the, like, fascist projection of power. But when you've got, you know, you've got this national security memorandum, you've got real things that are genuinely happening. And also, once you've normalized, and they've basically already done this, once you've normalized soldiers on American streets conducting normal law enforcement activities, that's not something that you can put back in the bag.

And so those things are, those things are extraordinary. And they should be treated as such, even if a component of it is also theatrical. And the theatrical is also, it is meant to scare people. It is meant to project something that creates a real impact, not just for like, you know, their, boomerati. Yeah, I know, but at the risk of getting into a crazy debate, it is a novel circumstance of like, if you have a city which doesn't want to enforce the law, what do you do? It's like a neo-confederate idea that Chicago can say illegals are legal gear. That's not true. That is literally not true. I mean, like, let's use the example of Portland because it's the one they're saying,

oh, we have to go and protect this like one ice building. Okay. There were protests there that were continuous. They had dwindled down to like 20 people. Law enforcement. was there manager. They had made a number of arrests in the context of these protests. Nothing, again, insane. But it's not like law enforcement was just letting this, letting violent things happen and wasn't doing anything about it. Well, you're porting to Portland, but let's say in Chicago in this case, like, okay, do we have that video of the ICE people, which, by the way, doesn't look good for the people of ICE who are involved here. So here you see, this is a, you know, an immigrant that I don't know if this is ICE or CVP. Some federal agents are trying to, you know,

to apprehend. And he is struggling, and they are struggling with him. And you see him down here on the ground. They're trying to get his hands into, you know, basically zip ties. Flex cuffs. Yeah, exactly. And random Chicago residents are stopping their cars and yelling at them and video recording them and telling them to leave him alone and telling them to go. And eventually, after struggling with him for a while, they do leave. Okay. So on one level, the American in a lot of us is like, don't tread on me. Yeah, we don't. Absolutely. On the other, do we really want mass mobs of citizens to determine who is allowed to have law enforcement on the street or not?

And this kind of gets to my Chicago police. So if the Chicago police say we're not going to assist in a federal law enforcement operation, that is genuinely like a neo-confederate idea where illegals are illegal here. No, we have the supremacy clause of the U.S. Constitution. The law of the land is supreme across all states. Like, I remember during Los Angeles, they're like, ICE needs to get out of L.A. You don't determine that. America determines that.

Like, it's a weird thing. Americans are determining it right there. There's, okay, there are a few people. So, okay, those people on the street get to have more supremacy than the United States Constitution, military and ICE. But no, you have to consider the context here, which is that ICE is routinely violating people's rights, right? Assaulting them, apprehending them with no warrants, flying in Blackhawk military helicopters to They don't need a warrant to detain you, especially if you have a measure of detention on you. You and I both know that it hasn't just been undocumented immigrants who have been apprehended.

People feel their rights are being violated, and they disagree with what they see as an invasion and a crash down of their city. This is what drives me nuts. I'm sorry. No, but the expectation is if you win an election, you're going to follow the law, and they're not doing that. So that's where the context comes in of people. No, they don't feel like it is just for some random. They don't trust that ICE is like apprehending this guy in good faith or that they have a real reason to be apprehending him.

They don't support the lawlessness and the rogue nature. I'm ICE is out of control. Like we've watched them assault American citizens. We've watched them, you know, they'll detain American citizens with no due process, no lawyer, no ability to make a phone call, no nothing. That is what this agency is doing. And so, yeah, people object to that. Okay, you can object to it all you want.

Again, do you not think it's. a little bit crazy that local municipalities get to just declare we will not be compliant with federal law. I mean, I think that's insane. They're not, they won't be compliant with federal law. What they're saying is that we're you, okay, you want to come in and do your thing? Like, we can't stop you. But that doesn't mean we have to devote our law enforcement resources, which are limited to whatever dumb shit you want to do, which is, by the way, violating our own city's rights. But in the case of, let's say, Los Angeles, they quite literally demanded withdrawal and lack of enforcement in their own city. It's like you don't get to, you

don't get to decide that the federal government does not have supremacy here. Like, we do need to stand up at the very least for a little bit for this idea that, because, I mean, think about it. Would you really, would you really accept this locality arguments from the south, let's say, during secretary? No, everybody rejected it. But hold on. It's not like Gavin Newsom sent in the California National Guard to, like, repel ICE from the city. That's not what happened. Ice has been allowed to operate. Well, it's not allowed. Yeah, there's no allowing.

This is kind of what I'm saying. There's no allowing. They are operating. It's federal territory. I know. That's what I'm saying. So I'm not sure what you're objecting to. When I'm adapting to, it was like this rhetoric and this idea that these localities just get

to simply decide that federal law enforcement does not get to take place. No, it is. I mean, in the case of Chicago, they're actively genuinely trying to make sure that they don't, they're like not allowing their property to mobilize. They're not determining any resources. they're saying that they won't, like, answer any calls on the way there. This is not a defensive ice, who I agree with you, has acted genuinely out of control. But there is a weird neo-confederate thing taking over, I think, a part of the modern left,

that seems to say that immigration enforcement is not allowed in blue states, which I just think is preposterous. I think that is a misperception of what the argument has been and what the reality on the ground has been. So, for example, in Chicago, Chicago Police Department has been present at a lot of the protests. They've been, you know, they've provided crowd control, including, you know, to benefit ice. In this instance where this lady got shot, ice originally lied and said, or whatever federal agencies said there's a bunch, not just ice that are on the ground there, said that Chicago Police Department didn't come and assist. That was just a total blatant lie of what actually occurred.

In fact, ice agents have been calling in in the suburb broadview where the ice facility is. They've been calling in phony, bogus 911 calls, draining resources, et cetera. So I don't, like, what you're describing, I don't think is the reality of what's actually taking place. And yes, do people object to the tactics of ICE? Do they object to their rights being violated, you know, little kids being dragged down in the middle of the night and zip tide? Of course they object to that. And it is their right as American citizens to object to what's happening in their city. No one's saying you can't object.

Yeah. No one is saying that you cannot object. I think I am saying that you probably should not be interfering with law enforcement operation on the street in this way just because that can go down a very dangerous road quickly. I mean, it's like, okay, let's say, do we support mob violence? Like, do we just support mob rule? I don't. I think it leads a very bad direction, even though I know much of the left does after BLM, but. I agree, Sager. But what I find more interesting about that video is, number one, the total incompetence of law enforcement on display. Number two, that these aren't activists. These are just random people who happen to be driving by. And so in the same way that we could

evaluate, you know, the response to Luigi Mangione murdering a health care CEO and say, well, when the American people are like, you know, find that to be potentially positive or at least they're like not upset about that happening, you have to ask a question why. And so I think that's more of my point with the video is to say, like, it is an extraordinary thing that you have just seemingly every random person who happen to come by taking what are in your, your right to say, extraordinary actions to say, I'm going to involve myself, I'm going to record this, I'm going to object to this. A couple of them got physically involved in terms of trying to, you know, intervene here. That is a real break from the norm with the

American public. And so that's what I find to be extraordinary about that video is what it says about how people in those communities are feeling about what's going on. Sure. So we can sociologically think it's interesting. I think what I'm afraid of is literally the same thing of what happened with Antifa and BLM is it's not a far cry from leftist and mainstream media justification of, oh, that's good. That's what you're supposed to do. And I mean, this is where it's like people are you're afraid of conflagration. It's like, well, then there is too much of a permission structure right now.

But there's, but I feel like you are holding random individuals on the street to a higher standard than the president of the United States, the head of Department of Homeland Security, et cetera, because they, I think it, to me, it is abundantly clear that what they want is some sort of a conflagration that they can use, again, to further expand power. They are actively courting that. And they haven't really fully gotten that yet because you have had a level of, I don't know, if it's disconnection or, you know, just you have not had that or discipline, really, but you have not had that full conflagration. But, you know, that's clearly when you are raiding an apartment building with Black Hawk helicopters, like, that's clearly the sort of thing that you're up. When you're sending red state troops into blue states, that is the sort of thing that you are courting. And it only takes one horrific thing going sideways to be, you know, in another country.

Yeah, look, I mean, that's one interpretation of it. The other is that there's a shock and awe approach to make sure that people self-deport, which is actually working. I'm not defending the eyes thing. I think it's crazy. I do not support that literally whatsoever. And in a lot of these cases, though, and this kind of, I'm pointing to the mom thing, I'm just watching the permission structure happen over and over again where it's like, oh, let's encourage this stuff.

Then you're going to get what you want. And you guys start killing agents or any of that. I mean, it's crazy. And actually, maybe we'll talk about this after your monologue, but one of the things that should maybe hearten people is that at the very least in America, you do have to prove a lot of your shit in court if you're actually just going to accuse people. And if we think about some of the most extraordinary and stupid things, let's say, that the Trump administration has tried to charge. Remember the sandwich guy?

But a grand jury just throws that out immediately. You're about to do your whole monologue. People are lying. Body cam, et cetera, has actually come to their savior. So I don't know. I mean, there's a lot of these warnings about some, you know, takeover. And, you know, again, a lot of the rhetoric is like Humvees martial law being declared in Chicago. I do think it's important to contextualize and say, like, some of the system actually is holding in a way that,

I don't think is being portrayed, and instead, there is a permission structure to violence that I'm watching, like, pretty clearly play out with a lot of the commentariat. Well, I'll take your point. I'll just say in that particular video, no one is being violent. I mean, most of what people are doing were just standing there and shouting. If you specifically involve yourself in a law enforcement operation, like, that's literally obstruction of justice. But mostly what you saw was people stop in their cars, honking, yelling at them, which they're allowed to do. I'm not, I'm not talking about them.

I'm talking about the people actually were getting involved here. I think that was like one guy who was like, you know, trying to pull him away. Yeah, and everyone was like, oh, this guy's a hero. Most of what was happening was, first of all, them being thoroughly incompetent and embarrassing way, which we've seen in other instances as well. I'm sure you saw that. Did you see the video of the guy in Maryland some like ice buffoon whose gun like fell out? Oh, yeah, he pointed his gun at the crowd and just, I mean, just clownish stuff. And by the way, that is only going to get worse because of how rapidly they are trying to.

trying to increase the ranks of ice. But in any case, you have that. And then most of what you have is just people like random people standing there and yelling and recording. That's fine. In fact, I support recording the police. It drives them crazy. Everybody should do it, especially if you see it around.

You want to record ice? All you want, fine. I'm more talking about the permission structure for a lot of this stuff in the way that we talk about it. Because I fear, just like with Luigi Mangione or something like that, somebody's starting to take it seriously and not understanding the full context of where we are. are. Like, yes, things can be very, very, very, very, very bad. And they are. I'm not denying it after. We did a whole segment yesterday. I literally was like, I think the country is falling

apart, like quite literally. And at the same time, you know, you can have a body can't, you can have a federal agent accused somebody shooting someone, apparently unjustfully as you're about to do your monologue on it. And that can be disproven in a court in a day and you can walk free. Now, that person's life was unjustly interfered with by the federal government and she should sue, in my opinion. And that's my thing is we still have some faith in our institutions. I don't want people to be so blackpilled that they think that violence and all that genuinely is the answer. Yeah. Because that seems to be where things are trending right now. I hope that you're wrong, but I agree. I share your concern. And the last thing I would say is, you know, one of the fears is

that you have some parts of the system that do still seem to function and work. Right. And the court system, at the lower level, especially being one of them. And especially when it comes to, you know, adjudicating, like, business disputes and those sorts of things, like, that continues to function. And at the same time, you have the executive, which enabled by the Supreme Court, is carving out broader and broader zones where the laws really don't apply. So that's taking it back to Venezuela when you're saying we're at war with drug cartels. That means, and drug traffickers, that means that if they randomly, you know, this is taking

this has not happened yet. If you randomly shoot someone on the street, you say they were an enemy combatant, they were a drug trafficker. Like, is that now allowed? That's not that different from just blowing up random Venezuela, potentially migrants at sea. So they continue to expand and carve out more and more zones where the laws really don't apply. And ICE has been one of the primary focal points of that because they can justifiably say we ran on a mandate of mass deportation And this is what the American people want. But then when you're sweeping up American citizens and denying them due process rights, when you're assaulting American citizens, I know you and I both watch the business owner who had his ribs broken.

We watched a woman, you know, whose husband was being deported, thrown to the ground and had to be hospitalized, photojournalists who were just trying to record what's happening, being thrown to the ground and having head trauma. And this all happening with your accountability, that's where it gets very concerning. because that zone of lawlessness that the president has claimed continues to expand and expand and expand. So does that mean that everything is like totalitarian? We can't say we can't criticize and we can't walk outside without being snatched up, blah, blah, blah. No, of course. There are parts of society that still function.

But we should be deeply concerned about the way that that zone of lawlessness continues to expand and the way that manifests itself, the way that it tramples on all of our rights and, you know, takes away parts of America that I think you and I both really try. No, I think that's very well said, as long as it's, I just, you know, I fear the most of watching, because we saw how, like, George Floyd, to George Floyd murder to burning shit down happened in two weeks. Like, we saw how quickly that can all transpire. And then full-blown rioting that can just, you know, people getting murdered and everybody's totally okay with that. And then we have the BLM Ferguson effect on cops for the next two and a half years. My greatest fear, and I do think the government is complicit, is to see, some sort of spiral like that happened. And genuinely, who knows? Because you can't trust the government right now with the way that they've handled the situation. And again, I literally know some of the people who are actual idiots or know of the people who aren't, I don't trust their judgment at all. I still can't believe there are the people who got these jobs. Then there's also, on the other side of that, I see the permission structure starting to bubble up where each are their own, like,

great, they're both greatest nightmare, but also kind of the dream boogeyman that they want to create. Yeah. And if there is not responsibility that prevails even in a dangerous moment like this, things are going, things can go south so quickly. All right, with basically a preview. So what do you take over? Indeed. All right. Let's take a look at this. It may look different, but native culture is very alive. My name is Nicole Garcia, and on Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we aim to explore that culture. It was a huge honor to become a television writer because it does feel oddly, like, very traditional. It feels like Bob Dylan going electric, that this is something we've been doing for hundreds of years. You carry with you a sense of purpose and confidence.

That's Sierra Teller Ornellis, who with Rutherford Falls became the first native showrunner in television history. On the podcast, Burn Sage, Burn Bridges, we explore her story, along with other native stories, such as the creation of the first native comic. or the importance of reservation basketball. Every day, Native people are striving to keep traditions alive while navigating the modern world, influencing and bringing our culture into the mainstream. Listen to Burn Sageburn Bridges on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Hey, this is Matt Jones. Now I'm Drew Franklin, and this is NFL Cover Zero. We're just here to try to give you an NFL perspective, a little bit different. Did you see the Colts Pretzel? That was my other big takeaway from that game. What was that? Oh, my.

We think NFL coverage should be informative and entertaining. And twice a week, that is exactly what you're going to get. Listen to NFL Cover Zero with Matt Jones and Drew Franklin on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Toyota, the official automotive partner of the NFL. Visit Toyota.com slash NFL now to learn more. I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the psychology podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about exploring human potential. I was going to schools to try to teach kids these skills, and I get eye rolling from teachers

or I get students who would be like, it's easier to punch someone in the face. When you think about emotion regulation, like you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome as a result of it, if it's going to be beneficial to you. Because it's easy to say, like, go blank yourself, right? It's easy. It's easy to just drink the extra beer. It's easy to ignore, to suppress, seeing a colleague who's bothering you and just, like, walk the other way.

Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. Denials is easier. Drinking is easier. Yelling, screaming is easy. Complex problem solving, meditating, you know, takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Over the weekend, amid the ice-created melee in Chicago, an immigration agent shot an American woman multiple times following some sort of a traffic incident.

Now, that incident escalated protests in the city that has already been rocked by DHS's heavy-handed tactics, including, as we've discussed here, an apartment raid that involved Black Hawk helicopters. Now, the details of exactly what transpired with this woman whose name is Merrimar Martinez are kind of murky, but what has become quite clear, is that the government initially lied about some really key details. And now, her lawyer is claiming that body cam footage undercuts their story entirely. This is raising serious questions about whether armed federal agents just shot an anti-ice activists and then brazenly lied about it to cover their tracks. So let me take you through the timeline of their shifting stories and exactly what the evidence shows.

So this incident, it occurred on Saturday morning and involved not only Martinez, but another motorist Anthony Ruiz, who was not shot but was arrested. On Saturday evening, DHS spokesperson, Tricia McLaughlin, put out the following statement with the government's first version of the events that led up to that shooting. Now, pay attention to the details here. These are going to matter. McLaughlin wrote, quote, this morning during routine patrolling in Broadview in the same area of Chicago that law enforcement were assaulted yesterday, our brave law enforcement officers were rammed by vehicles and boxed in by 10 cars. Agents were unable to move their vehicles. And and exited the car. One of the drivers who ran the law enforcement vehicle was armed with

a semi-automatic weapon. Law enforcement was forced to deploy their weapons and fire defensive shots at an armed U.S. citizen who drove herself to the hospital to get care for wounds. The armed woman was named in a CBP intelligence bulletin last week for doxing agents and posting online, hey, to all my gang, let's fuck those motherfuckers up. Don't let them take anyone. Thankfully, no law enforcement officers were seriously injured in this attack. Pritzker's Chicago Police Department is leaving the shooting scene and refuses to assist us in securing the area. There is a growing crowd and we are deploying special operations to control the scene. This is an evolving situation.

We will give more info as soon as it becomes available. So that was their first version of events. Now, that story was immediately called into question from a variety of directions. First of all, the other motorist, Anthony Ruiz's mother, denied the governance version of events. According to the New York Times, Mr. Ruiz's mother, Elizabeth Ruiz, said her son told her on the phone in the morning he had been rammed by federal agents and that they were shooting. Upon hearing that, she said she raced to the scene. She said an agent grabbed her son, said he was under arrest when she asked why she said she received no answer. So according to Ruiz and his mother,

he just happened to be in the area, was rammed by ICE and then arrested for no reason. Then Chicago Police Department said the DHS was also lying about their supposed failure to assist in crowd control. Quote, in a statement, Chicago police clarified officers did respond to the shooting scene involving federal agents on Saturday near the intersection of West 39th Street and South Kedzia Avenue around 10.30 a.m., police said their purpose was to, quote, maintain public safety and traffic control. Then we got the actual charging document from the government and key details from McLaughlin's

original story about Martinez were now missing. So the government themselves undercut key details of their original. narrative. First of all, McLaughlin got the location wrong. Second, remember how she claimed that they were boxed in by 10 cars? Suddenly in the criminal complaint, only four cars were mentioned, Martinez-Ruiz and two others. Originally, McLaughlin had said that Martinez drove herself to the hospital. Complaint says that she was actually taken by ambulance from a nearby repair shop. But most critically, McLaughlin had originally claimed the government had to fire shots in self-defense in part because Martinez was armed with a semi-automatic weapon.

The criminal complaint makes no mention of Martinez carrying a firearm. So even before, an initial hearing on the charges facing Martinez, government had already contradicted their own story in multiple significant ways. But a hearing last night raised even more questions about exactly what happened here. So Chicago Tribune reporter Jason Meisner covered these proceedings. According to Martinez as attorney there at those proceedings, the presence of rogue-armed agents of the state, that was the real danger to the community, not Martinez.

Martinez's team alleged that body cam footage tells a totally different story than what the government has been selling. So her attorney told the court, based on repeated viewings of the body cam footage, you can see the agent who was driving suddenly turned the wheel to the left, indicating he actually ran Martinez, not the other way around.

Then the agent jumps out and starts shooting. Martinez's attorney also argued that the pattern of the bullets through Martinez's passenger side door was inconsistent with the government's narrative about a head-on ramming. In addition, the body cam footage captures this agent saying, quote, do something bitch before he jumps out of the car and starts firing his weapon. The body cam footage was said to directly contradict the government's claim that Martinez was driving towards officers when they fired at her in self-defense. what's more. After the shooting, the agent appears to warn another agent about speaking plainly about what had just occurred, cognizant of the body cam's recording. Quote, after the shooting, Martinez's lawyer says the body camera captured another agent coming up and saying, hey, what happened? The agent points to his body cam and says, hey, don't speak, you're good.

As for the government, their lawyer did claim that that same body cam footage captured an agent saying, we're getting boxed in, we got to get out of here, she's going to make contact right before the car is struck on both sides. Now, notably, Martinez's attorney offered to show the body cam footage to the court while the government lawyers made no such offer. Now, ultimately, Martinez was shot five times. She's now being charged with forcibly assaulting, resisting, opposing, impeding, intimidating, or interfering with a federal law enforcement officers in the performance of their official duties. So far, though, the judge does not seem to, impressed with the government's case. Both Martinez and Ruiz were ordered released after the judge

found the government did not meet the bar for requiring the two to be detained until their trial. Now, given that body camera footage exists, we are eventually going to get the real story of what exactly transpired here. But already in significant ways, the government's story of self-defense against a rampaging woman with a semi-automatic weapon has completely fallen apart. And while no agents were injured, an American woman suffered five gunshot wounds from her. own government. And one can only assume there will be more dangerous and potentially deadly encounters between citizens of our country and the government their tax dollars fund as the Trump regime escalates their ICE and National Guard deployments. And so, Saga, you were talking about,

and this is a risk of... And if you want to hear my reaction to Crystal's monologue, become a premium subscriber today at breakingpoints.com. I'm Bridget Armstrong, host of the new podcast, The Curse of America's Next Top Model. I've been investigating the real story behind that iconic show. I ended up having anorexia issues, bulimia issues, by talking to the models, the producers,

and the people who profited from it all. We basically sold our souls, and they got rich. If you were so rooting for her, and saw her drowning. What did you help her? Listen to the curse of America's Next Top Model on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

I'm Dr. Scott Barry Kaufman, host of the Psychology Podcast. Here's a clip from an upcoming conversation about how to be a better you. When you think about emotion regulation, you're not going to choose an adaptive strategy which is more effortful to use unless you think there's a good outcome.

Avoidance is easier. Ignoring is easier. denial is easier, complex problem solving, takes effort. Listen to the psychology podcast on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up, everybody, it's snacks from the trap nerds and all October long. We're bringing you the horror. We're kicking off this month with some of my best horror games to keep you terrified. Then we'll be talking about our favorite horror in Halloween movies and figuring out why black people always die further.

And it's the return of Tony's horror show, SideQuest written and narrated by your. yours truly. We'll also be doing a full episode reading with commentary. And we'll cap it off with a horror movie battle royale. Open your free iHeart radio app and search trap nurse podcast and listen now. This is an iHeart podcast.