Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 11/14/25: MSM IGNORES Israel in Epstein, Groypers Occupy Trump Admin?, Mass AI Hack REVEALED

Episode Date: November 14, 2025

To see the 2nd of the Friday show become a member: https://breakingpoints.locals.com/support On today's show the team breaks down mainstream media's focus on Epstein's sex trafficking while avoiding mention of his alleged occupation as an asset for Israel, Emily looks at how many "Groypers" occupy the Trump administration, a massive first of its kind AI led cyber attack, and we interview Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota and Senate canddiate Peggy Flanagan who talk to about the shutdown deal and if Schumer should resign. Peggy Flanagan: https://peggyflanagan.com/   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Good morning, everyone. How's it going? It's going good. Nice to have Ryan back from his overseas trip. Good to be back. How's everything over here? That's right. I'm great, because I just learned you have a giant tool bag under your desk. of course building something what's going on down there this basement is something else you guys wouldn't

he's like that TikTok lady who's like tunneling into the in her basement she's creating a labyrinth under it I'm not aware of that yeah I'll send you some links I was at this conference called Web Summit in Lisbon Portugal which is there's some media but it's mostly tech

and 70,000 80,000 people come to it It's like the biggest tech conference in the world. And it was just all AI slop, like complete AI takeover of the tech scene. Although, the most interesting thing, there was a rumor kicking around that when this is over, they have like a couple more years on their contract in Lisbon. They might take it to China, which would be, that would be a real shot across the American tech bow, if that actually happened. They do one in Toronto, they do one in Vancouver.

they do one in, I think, Sao Paulo, but the main one has been in Lisbon since it was moved out of Dublin. I was seeing some good news for the AI, the American AI industry, which is, we might get to this in the show, this big hack that happened, first, like, major hack that happened using AI tools with very little human involvement. They did use US AI tools, American AI tools. USA. USA. USA. USA. I was pointing that out.

Incredible. This was anthropic, yeah. the yeah it's like it's a low bar but it's the most transparent of the monstrous AI companies yeah that's right yeah that's true so we got a lot of stories this friday packed friday show we've got more epstein stuff we're going to be looking at an article that emily wrote an unheard about the groipers and how many actually are there uh we've also described this segment as the groyper census so that's how we're going to refer to it that's right uh which is now an official yearly Census. Valuable public service you're providing their M. Thank you. As Crystal mentioned, we've got

artificial intelligence cyber attacks. And then we have a guest, Crystal, who are we having on this Friday show? Yeah, so we've got Peggy Flanagan. She's a current lieutenant governor of Minnesota, which is interesting in its own right, you know, working closely with Tim Walls. They were running mates together. And then she's now running for U.S. Senate in Minnesota. She's in the Democratic primary against a sort of moderate to conservative Democrat named Angie Craig. who worked in the medical device industry before coming into Congress. So it should be an interesting one. Peggy Flanagan is broadly sort of progressive on the left type of candidate.

So interesting, interested to chat with her. You know, and I got a video of Angie Craig being a little crazy at a town hall that I hadn't done anything with yet. So maybe I'll play that for Peggy Flanagan, get her to react to it. She's getting challenged at a like an auction dinner about. Gaza and just shouts back at the person we're not a cult, basically. It's like, it's very bizarre and weird because I didn't even know what to

do with this. Like, this is so weird. What do we do with this? But anyway, I figured out what I'm going to do with it. I'll post it by the time she comes on. And we're playing. Speaking of hidden troves, Ryan's sitting in a lot of hidden troves, but let's get a little bit to the Epstein stuff. Ryan hadn't been on this week. So we really wanted to hear from Ryan

about his reaction. The one thing I wanted to note, it seems like the new vibe or the new perspective is that Well, maybe Trump may have had sexual interactions with 15-year-olds, but, you know, like, maybe not younger kids. And the White House went and posted a video of him interacting with children. Can't help but think that this might be somewhat related to the news this week. I'm handing out pens.

So, yes, the White House confirms he's okay with eight-year-olds. But Ryan, you know, my first question to you is, with all this Epstein news, did all this come out? because of they wanted to cover up the drop site reporting about his Israel connections? Because it seems like that has not been mentioned at all this week for the mainstream media. I don't know. I, you know, I try to not

get too conspiratorial and when things come out and why they come out. You know, could Well, the reason it came out now, I mean, in part, Rokana came on our show and said, hey, me and James Comer actually did the subpoena of the Epstein estate.

And they've just been releasing things in batches. And then the other reason Epstein is big this week is actually because of the end of the government shutdown, which allowed Adelita Groslva to. So as much as I would like to imagine a drop site-centered conspiracy, I don't actually think that's what's going on here. I agree. I tend to agree with that, yes.

On Griffin, on your point, I think you're referencing that the cringe like Megan Kelly Bata segment where, you know, they seem to be kind of creating some type of permission structure for barely legal type. of illegal activity, but I don't, I mean, so far, you know, Trump is obviously all over these files because his administration has basically said he is and he's going to the mat to keep him, you know, to keep them from getting released. So he's letting the entire world know he's guilty. But so far what Democrats released, I didn't think was necessarily that impressive about Trump. You know, like, I guess the best thing we can talk about the society that was

Epstein saying that, you know, he had told the Russians that he's got some dirt on Trump or something like that. And Epstein telling people, you know, if Trump says he didn't fly on the plane, he's a flat out liar. You know, if Trump says he's never been to the mansion, he's a flat out liar, we kind of already knew that, that he'd been on the plane, that he'd been, that he'd been in the mansion. There's videos of him and Epstein. He, he and Epstein were very close friends until they apparently had this falling out because Epstein kept poaching girls from Marlago into his like trafficking operation. And I think, and Trump was like, these are, these people worked for me. I don't think he was like chivalrous and like opposed to whatever Epstein was going

to do with him. But it's like, it's hard to hire people. It's annoying. Now I got to hire new people. So I think it was more long those lines. I think they also, they also had that falling out, right? They also had that falling out over the, some sort of a real estate deal. And then there's a suggestion, you know the one email where he's like that one dog that has embarked is Trump and then he says something, something police chief, I'm 75% there, like very cryptic. There's also some theorizing that Epstein thinks Trump may actually have tipped off the police chief that ends up doing the investigation that then gets scuttled by Alex Acosta, whatever.

but yeah, go on, Ryan, finish your thoughts. No, that's, that is a funny, uh, kind of twist if like Trump out of spite over some real estate deal called the cops on his, on his friend, uh, and ended up then entangling himself 15, 20 years later in this entire, uh, reckless controversy. But yeah, the, the coverage, the coverage of the, Putin, Putin and Epstein connection coming out of the latest email was the one that kind of jumped out of me the most. It's like, all right, good. That's interesting.

You can write about that. Maybe in your second paragraph you could mention that Epstein worked with the Israeli government to set up a back channel to Putin. Like that also feels relevant. It feels like the amount of gymnastics and contortions they're going to to make news out of these drops without mentioning the country of Israel and the connections that he has to Israel, even as we have the inbox of Ahud Barak, his very good friend to go through. We have the inbox of Ambassador Prozer to go through. We have enormous amounts of contextual information

coming from the House Oversight Committee to establish that he was working directly with Israeli intelligence. You can argue about what he was doing. He's working with them. We even, as we published this week and you guys talked about, he's even wiring money. So, like, an Israeli intelligence official, like getting wire transfer data from Barack. It's like this could maybe work its way into the coverage at some point, but it feels like it's acceptable at this point for the media to just talk about the sex trafficking part of it, but they will not touch the rest of it. Well, I just want to say, like, what we can expect to see out of these upscenes disclosures for the next several decades are exactly what we saw this week, 20, thousand emails here or there and you get pieces of a big puzzle you don't even know what the picture of the puzzle you're assembling is and so you just have this scattering of pieces scraps it's

exactly like what we've gotten in the john a f kennedy assassination stuff it'll stretch into decades and you'll get really fascinating tidbits like that dog that hasn't barked yet is trump and it'll be gesturing at something like fascinating intriguing and important but there's no smoking gun the government is going to just close to us we're not going to see it buried and 20,000 email dump from the estate. Any smoking gun has probably been destroyed, and they're certainly not going to put it in the 20,000 email dump randomly on one day from the estate.

But what we can do is see this picture emerging through literally only the drop site reporting of a sprawling intelligence operation. So do I think the sex trafficking is real? Yes. Do I think they're going to ever release anything? that definitively legally puts anybody in jeopardy for it? Probably not.

I hope they do, but probably not. But what we are going to be able to see are the contours of the sprawling an obvious intelligence operation. And that's proven through Ryan's reporting with Maas. Yeah, and it's interesting. It's like what kind of a smoking gun would actually be needed?

Because it then depends on what you're trying to prove. Like if all you're trying to prove is that he had lots of connections with American intelligence. and Israeli intelligence, and also elites in Russia and Europe, it's proven, done, gotcha, you're covered. If you want to know specifically what he was doing, we can lay out some of it. You know, so far, we can tell you what he was doing in Syria with Mongolia, with Cote d'Avore.

Soon we're going to have some Angola stuff. We'll have some Nigeria stuff. We can tell you exactly what's going on with the, you know, the different gems and the gold mining. Like there's like enormous amounts of details you can get into. So like, but then you're like, okay, well, now I know, now I have a ton of details about this global network that is a kind of supranational government that operates. And that's what makes it so confusing, I think, even to us as we're like originally going into it because you're looking for like, is he working for Assad? Is he working for the CIA? It's like it misunderstands what the role of like Mossad and CIA are in this world.

world. Like there's this super supranational network of elites that in the 2010s were congregating a Davos man was how you really understood them. And they were not, none of them were working for Mossad or the CIA. The CIA and the Mossad were working for them is a better way of putting it. Were they getting a W9 or like W2? Like how are they getting paid? What they doing? You find a W9 and that Epstein filled out for the CIA. Right. It's like, but we even have the wire transfer. It's Epstein sending the money to the Israeli spy.

So it's like a bit, which is actually a nice metaphor for like how we actually do properly understand this, I think, which is they work for this network of people. Right. And how they work for them depends on who's kind of has more power within the click at that moment. And how do you know that? You have to be on the end. You have to be on the inside. It's just the same way with any other. network. And that's why ignoring that piece of the story, you know, makes so, look, I think

Americans want to know if Trump knew about this massive pedophile ring. I think that's probably the most suggestive thing in these emails. Epstein certainly, you know, insinuates multiple time, explicitly states, I have dirt on Trump that could bring him down, right? And he's always teasing this to this New York Times reporter. He's talking abandon about it. He's talking abandoned about it right up until the point that he ends up in prison and then dead. which is interesting in and of itself, right? So, but is it a question of just the, like, horror and morality, which, I mean, I don't want to minimize that, right?

That's very important and horrifying. I think many people are horrified by it. Or is it a question of is the president of the United States compromised in some, you know, significant way by Israel and also here by Russia, right? Because this is the point you always make Ryan. Like, even if Epstein is bluffing, clearly people thought that he did. did have all the videos, that he did have all the goods, that he did have all the dirt. And you would have certainly known that he was directly connected to the Israelis. I mean, besties with this former Israeli prime minister doing business deals with him, obviously directly connected to Mossad. Galane Maxwell's dad was directly connected to Mossad. That's just undeniable stuff. And then you also have this, you know, Russian connection. You have to assume that whatever it is that you don't want the public to know, Epstein knew and conveyed to these various parties. So now we're talking about issues of foreign policy.

We're talking about how is this now impacting our country here in the present with the decisions you're making vis-a-vis Russia, vis-a-vis Israel, and God knows what other countries you're concerned about here. And one thing you can say, what is this doing to our relationship with Mongolia? The people need to know, okay? But, you know, one of the, to me, you have to put together the emails which are suggestive, right? No smoking gut, but very suggestive, and also suggestive of a longer-term relationship or at least connectivity with Epstein than Trump claims. The fact that Trump is acting guilty as hell, right? I mean, you know what? It's almost like he has shame on this particular, which I've never seen before.

We found his shame. Yes. I'm like, okay, well, what is it that's so bad that it apparently is worse than shooting someone on Fifth Avenue since he thinks that would be. fine for him to do, but this he thinks would be worse. And we know not only from his public actions, how sort of panicked he is, but also this special treatment of Galane Maxwell is also a very important piece of try to understand the psychology of Trump. Like, this woman should never be in this club fed prison, number one. Number two, she's getting the freaking puppies and the special meals and the exercise and getting to meet with people after hours, et cetera. Number three, she's putting in her commutation application every time Trump's asked about it. He won't say,

whether he'll accept or reject it, et cetera. So very clearly, he wants to keep her happy so that she does not divulge, whatever it is, that he is afraid of her divulging. So to me, when you put those pieces together, it's like, what is going on here that is causing him to act in this bizarre way, vis-a-vis the normal way that he conducts himself? Yeah. And the only other thing I'd lay on top of that is absolutely correct. and especially about people assuming that Epstein had the goods,

like what we now know from all of the reporting we've done recently, the business that he and Ehou Barak were getting into on behalf of Israeli companies and the Israeli government itself was cyber surveillance, was the bleeding edge of the most sophisticated spying technology in the world. And so people who knew him knew that he has direct access to these, you know, no-click, you know, penetrations of your phone or cameras, God knows where.

Like the kinds of like sci-fi stuff that were there several years ahead where we now understand what they're capable of. They had that, you know, they knew about it years ago. So even if he didn't have you in his mansion or on his plane, you had to wonder what else what do they have? What else does he know? Because when you have state power combined with global surveillance networks, you have an access to an enormous amount of information.

The only other thing I'll add about Gieland Maxwell is, I mean, there could be a lot of stuff going on there. She, in those transcribed interviews that were released, was, I think, pretty obviously deferential to Trump, and Trump has been deferential in turn to Gieland Maxwell. And it obviously seems like there's some information that Maxwell may have. have that Trump is sort of trying to control her and anything that she might be able to spill. I don't know if it's like about Trump or if it's about the intelligence community. I don't know what they're more worried about, to be honest.

But it's like at this point, everyone knows Trump. He's like the Fifth Avenue guy, right? Like, shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. Like he is, Crystal, Chris has point about him acting guilty as hell. Like, just politically, just politically. Like, it's insane to fight the document releases. It's completely insane. On this week's episode of the next chapter,

I, D.D. Jakes, get to sit down with Oprah Winfrey, a media mogul philanthropist, and global trailblazer. My life, although it may look like an anomaly, it has only been possible because I was obedient to the calls. This episode dies deep into how Oprah turned pain into purpose and what it really means to evolve with everybody watching. Every decision I have ever made has come from sitting with the spirit and asking God, what would you have me do first? Whether you're rebuilding, reimagining, or just trying to hold it together, this one will speak directly to you. Listen to the next chapter on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast, episodes drop weekly.

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Listen to the big take from Bloomberg News every weekday afternoon on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. She said, Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night. Along the central Texas plains, teens are dying. Suicides that don't make sense. strange accidents, and brutal murders. In what seems to be, a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad. Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people.

There are people out there that absolutely know what happened. Listen to paper ghosts, the Texas teen murders, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It makes you look, yeah, 100%. And he knows. He has good political sense. He knows how insane it looks. So therefore, he thinks that not doing it is even worse, which is really wild to think about.

Which is very, yes. But it's insane because there's already so much, like the birthday book, like there's so much out on Trump's relationship with Epstein. I mean, it's just. If we psychoanalyze this, it's going to be three hours. So I am going to move us along to your important reporting, Emily. To the Groyber census? Yes. Well, there has been a census conducted by Emily.

Now, this all started, of course, when young Republican group chat texts were leaked. There was I Love Hitler comments and other unsavory opinions. But Emily decided to do some gumshoe reporting, some knocking on doors, making phone calls to find out just how many of these Republicans are groped up basement cat boys. Emily, what did you find? What are the numbers here? Grooped up basement cat boys. Well, okay, so there was a number pinging around conservative movement circles in D.C. last week from Rod Dreher, who wrote that he was told by an older insider that 30 to 40 percent of Gen Z staffers in a conservative world. And here in D.C. were Groyper's. And in that, it was sort of conflated with Groyper slash fans of Fuentes. Those are kind of different things. Like, it's, I'll get into that in just a second.

I actually agree with that, too, yeah. Yeah, like, because if you just see someone who's, like, laughing at Nick Fuentes as opposed to with Nick Fuentes, there's a distinction in that distinction might be genuine anti-Semitism. So it's hard for, I think, particularly anyone older than, like, the age of 40, but maybe even, like, the age of 30, it's so, like, go through these layers of irony and find the people who, what does Fuentes tell them to say, are hiding their power level, whatever? So the question is, has Fuentes successfully infiltrated professional? D.C. and Republican circles, as he has said he has done and as he has planned to do, I think the answer to that question is probably, in small measure, yes, but I do not think it's anywhere near 30 to 40 percent. My background is in the conservative youth movement. Do tons of work with students have met with, like, hundreds of people for coffee in the last

like 10 years. And all that is to say, I wanted to just get a sense from other people, other younger people on the right, what they thought the real number was. So I had like seven sources that I talked to kind of across the board. You ever from the White House, Capitol Hill, conservative youth groups, all of that. And every single person I talked to was like, that number is crazy. Pretty much everybody agrees that there is some small number. One person I talked to in the administration was like, it's not double digits, which I know is cold comfort to people.

You're like, oh, you're saying that 9% of young Republican staffers are Groyper's? I doubt that it's like even that high. I have no idea what the number is, but I don't think it's even that high. Either way, I just think it's important to distinguish between who's legitimately like Groyper anti-Semite and who is sick and tired of our foreign policy towards Israel. And what we saw happen in, I think, a couple of different recent cases is those young Republicans who were saying legitimately like racist and awful stuff, then being conflated with the people at the Heritage Foundation, like the young staffers at the Heritage Foundation, who are getting berated by neocons for saying, we don't like your Israel policy. And like Project Esther is censoring people. So I do think that it's worth like pausing to with cooler heads, allowing that to prevail, allowing cooler heads to prevail and be like, we have to distinguish when we're, you know, actually trying to have a useful political movement, between who's an actual bigot, because there are some.

And it's a problem that it's going to get worse, the more disenfranchised a lot of young men feel. And people who are just not on board with the Project Esther, neoconservative, like really broad definition of what constitutes anti-Semitism. So, yeah, I had seven sources, nobody over millennial age. So millennials and younger. And, yeah, I mean, it's not useful if they're, anyway. True.

That's what I wrote. This is the Groyper census. And that's, we don't have the firm number, but I think it's safe to say not double digits. Yeah. I think part of what is hard to kind of wrap your arms around is like what do we mean by that term, Groyper? You know, as you were indicating, do we mean like the strictest definition would be someone who is like a Nick Fuentes super fan who would self-identify uniron as a Groyper, and who buys into the entirety of the worldview, okay? That would be, like, the narrowest definition. And there's a much broader definition, which would be that, you know, they are sort of, you know, like racialist and may even come down on a different question of whether they hate the Jews or the Muslims more, but have this fundamental, like Stephen Miller, fundamentally racialist worldview. And I think that, I mean, we see that that is, we see publicly from this administration that the people who are running the social media accounts, the people who are like, you know, Stephen Miller and his accolites who are designing the policy, they share that racialist worldview. And so, so, you know, to me, it's just a question of like, well, what exactly do we mean by that? And does it make it any better? Like, I don't think Stephen, you can't call Stephen Miller a griper because he comes. down, like I said, on a different place on the question of whether the Jews or the Muslims

are worse. But he does share this bedrock racialist ideology, which he's using to effectuate policy as one of the most powerful administration staff member. So to me, it's somewhat of a distinction without a difference, whether he's technically like a Nick Fuentes superfan. He wouldn't be, again, because he is Jewish and is a Zionist and very committed to the state of Israel. But on a lot of levels, they fundamentally agree. I think the distinction in that case would be Fuentes indicates on his show, he is like controlling sleeper cells of, to the narrow definition you laid out crystal, people who are self-identified Groyper jersey wearers who would like activate at a moment's notice. The sleeper cell would be activated.

We talked about like sending them to Iowa, New Hampshire. to harass J.D. Vance if J.D. Vance is to run for president. I mean, which she probably will. You know, it's ongoing war, actually, with Charlie Kirk and T.P.USA. Which is why people, when Charlie Kirk was murdered, were first raising eyebrows at the Groypers. And we do see a lot of, like, groped up young people showing up at the TPP USA events. True. And, you know, even at events with, like, Eric Trump, I saw, you know. But to your point, it can be difficult to separate, okay, do you have a legitimate concern? about our foreign policy vis-a-vis Israel? Or is this fueled by you think it's a Zionist-occupied government

and the Jews control everything, et cetera, et cetera? Yeah. Yeah. And I think that it's to like throw around the 30-40% number is dangerous because then you're going to end up pushing people who are not anti-Semitic but are being told they're anti-Semitic further to the fringes because there's like, there's nothing I can do that will make you think I'm well-intentioned. And they still have agency and it's still their fault if that happens.

But yes, the, yeah, I think the people who were giving Fuentes too little credit before for having power are now giving him too much credit. And so, yeah, it's a little, I don't know, it's tricky, but the rights got to get, the rights got lots of problems, lots of problems. And I will say they seem to be congregating in the social media departments of all these federal agencies because, like, this is not, you know, George H.W. Bush content that they're putting out on, on, like, the, like, on main. Like, they're putting out, like, far right, like, Groyper-style memes. Like, Thorchan, overtly white national issues. Of, like, the department of the department of that, like the. And so I assume those are kids that somebody handed the keys to.

Remember, does it, it's a Santa's video when he was running that had, like, the black son or the son-or-on, like, this is, like, been happening for, a year or two now, these memes. I mean, it makes sense that they would be, Emily, in the, like, perhaps a disproportionate concentration of those departments, because if you're that online that you're a Nick Fuentes, like, super fan, then you're probably going to have some skill in, like, the meme in social media department, right? Possible.

And a major push in this industry, we were talking about this earlier in the week, to the frustration of some, you know, ideological allies is to... basically, you know, do the based ritual, the vice signaling through their social media and have that substitute for any substantive policy that actually improves people's lives. The last thing I'll say is almost all of my sources with a couple of exceptions were populists. So that's another question that I've gotten in the last couple of days. This is not like establishment McConnell people. So that's just just adding that. And the other thing I want to say is before recently, really the only people on the right who knew what a groiper was were people

who were working in the youth movement because Fuentes was so intentional and strategic about infiltrating some of these youth events. And so those organizations have for years been like screening groipers, like going through like deep dives, social media, trying to figure out if people have burners, trying to ask certain questions that might suss out groopers. And that's probably getting harder to do because they're getting more, I think, probably strategic to try to avoid that process. Well, last thing I'll say is who was this guy, DeGrosseo or something like that, who had his messages leaked? Oh, Paul. In Grosia, yeah. Who had his messages leak where he was talking about, like, I've got a Nazi streak, you know, and he just got elevated to a new,

you know, relatively high-level position. So, again, like, is he a Groyperer? Probably not, like, he's an older guy. He's probably maybe not like a, you know, Fuentes meme. I don't know. Maybe he is. He's from my age, and he's like 30-ish. But, you know, this stuff comes out and reveals that he's at least, you know, open to, I mean, he has a racialist worldview, open to overt Nazism.

And this is not disqualifying in this administration. So I don't know why anyone would think that, you know, like that somehow an association with Nick Fuentes. would in any way be disqualifying or that this administration would have any interest in tamping down on overt racist sentiment when again some of the most powerful players within the administration share an overtly racist worldview even if some of the like ethnic potent like specific ethnic dividing lines are slightly different yeah I agree with that I agree with like Ryan's take on like the DHS memes and stuff like that but like I did get a sense from the story when like the the the group chat officially like leaked that people were saying oh like this doesn't just mean the staffers but that a sizable just part of like maga base or voter population like our our Nazis and hitler lovers um was kind of like a sense from the story but i feel like if you reverse that and looked at like democratic operatives like i don't believe that like all democrats are like olivia juliana or harry sisson like like i don't think that that's also representative of like

the democratic base or what have you and something that was interesting to I don't think Hassan's representative of the average, like, young Democrat, no. It's a little taller. Maybe, yeah, yeah, yeah. But, like, there's also this, like, entertainment question because I was. I actually think Hassan is fairly representative of a lot of young Democrats in a lot of ways. I mean, just look at how many young people voted for Zoran in New York City. And, like, if you're to talk about just, like, ideological alignment, Hassan's politics and his politics would be, you know, not identical, but the most closely aligned of any mainstream political.

figure. So I actually think it would be fair to say that young Democrats under 30, you know, probably they may not all be Hassan Piker fans specifically. But they are more from that wing of, you know, reflective of that wing of the party. Yeah, I think that's true. And I would have said the same thing with Charlie Kirk with the right. Yeah. And people also separate take what they want from content. And I was thinking about this because I heard, I saw another conservative YouTube influencer Asman Gold talk about Fuentes recently. And he said, well, you know, I don't really agree with like the Jew hating stuff, but I agree with his takes on Israel. And I think that is like representative like of a lot of the conservatives that probably do

watch Fentis. It's they kind of like take what they want. They're like, oh, well, I'm not really sure I agree with like this like racism against Jews, but I do agree that Israel controls America or what have you. And I do think that is like representative of like a large part of the audience is that like in the same with Candace Owens, I'm pretty sure a large portion of people who watch Candace Owen are like, she's crazy, but I love watching her. Yeah, I think that's true. Right? And there is something to that, right? That people are coming to be entertained and they take what they want from it. Like, they don't become the person they're watching entirely and they pick and choose what parts of it because ultimately a lot

of it is entertainment. Well, last thing I'll say on this actually is I think that's why it's incumbent on the right to understand better why people are watching Candace and Fuenta. Some of it is because they're getting sucked into bad racial politics like bigotry. On the other hand, some of it is that where else do you go to get a conservative criticism of this Trump administration? Exactly. That's part of it. And so if they want to start, like, actually preventing people from getting sucked on these rabbit

holes, they need to understand that young people are not happy with this administration. Young conservatives are not happy with this administration. And they're looking for people to actually have real conversations about what's going on in D.C. and in the world, and that pushes them towards the Fuentes and Candices, and even towards like Pucker, for at least some modicum of criticism and skepticism about conservative elites. Yeah, it's just that it doesn't, I mean, if you're just putting anti-Semitism off the table, but you're not putting other forms of racism and bigotry off the table. The Shapiro mode.

Yeah, that's a pretty hollow victory to me, you know, in my opinion, if it's like, Oh, Stephen Miller won out. Congratulations, you know, or the people that actively support and fund an arm a genocide. Oh, their ideology won. Wow, that's fantastic. You know, I mean, that's, and that's why I'm coming back to, like, you know, the Stephen Miller and the views that are coming out of this administration, the policies. I mean, their refugee policy is only whites allowed. You know, this stuff is just overt.

So, I mean, I just, I don't see outside of, I really don't see any significant institution. within the right that are ascendant right now who are like actually all bigotry should be off the table, not just like, hey guys, like, hey guys, let's hate the Muslims, not the Jews or Laura Limer. Hey, guys, you know, it's the Islamization of America. That's the real problem. And it's an outrage that we have any Muslims in Congress and how, but how dare you be anti-Semitic? Like that view where you're just like, well, my ethnic group or Dinesh D'Souza, right? where he's like, well, my particular ethnic group should be off the table. I can't, but how dare you come for the Indians now?

It's like, yeah, but you were good with all of this up until that point when the hatred turned on you. So, I mean, anyway, it's, you know, to me, there's the ideological strain on the right that is ascendant right now is fundamentally racialist. And so I don't really particularly have a dog in the fight of, I think it's all abhorrent, right? whether you put the Muslims on top or the Jews on top or who you hate more, I think it's all a disgusting way to behave fundamentally. And Emily, is the right going to need some more distance from like 2020? It feels like you watch a right-wing organization. If anybody tries to stand up to any form of bigotry in any circumstance,

then you're a cuck. They get called woke. Yeah, you're a lib, you're a cuck, you're woke. I think that's the problem with like the ingrassious. stuff, which is people assume, and that's why I think this distinction is important. People assume that anyone who gets caught up in like a cancel culture scandal, it's more important. The cost-benefit analysis is on owning the libs and not like, quote, canceling somebody who's hashtag-based. And so, yeah, I think maybe that's a good point, Ryan. Yeah, I think that's, you know, all of the conservative

institutions, I think we'll say and have been like hand-wringing over the last couple of weeks, especially with the heritage stuff, to, like, say there's nothing, nothing excuses any of this. You know, and that's fueling Fuentes. He makes them seem like really important and really ascendant and all of that. So it's confusing. You need someone that's woke and hates Israel. Like, you need a wokely hate Israel on the right for there to be a healthy new discourse. Then you're just a leftist.

Then you're just a leftist. So come on over, guys. on this week's episode of the next chapter i dd jakes gets to sit down with Oprah winfrey a media mogul philanthropist and global trailblazer my life although it may look like an anomaly it has only been possible because i was obedient to the calls this episode dies deep into how Oprah turned pain into purpose and what it really means to involved with everybody watching. Every decision I have ever made has come from sitting with the spirit and asking God,

what would you have me do first? Whether you're rebuilding, reimagining, or just trying to hold it together, this one will speak directly to you. Listen to the next chapter on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast episodes drop weekly. On the podcast Health Stuff, we are tackling all the health questions that keep you up at night. Yes, I'm Dr. Priyanka Wally, a double board certified physician. And I'm Hurricane de Bolo, comedian and someone who once Googled, do I have scurvy at 3 a.m.

On Health Stuff, we're talking about health in a different way. It's not only about what we can do to improve our health. But also what our health says about us and the way we're living. Like our episode where we look at diet. In the United States, I mean, 50% of Americans are pre-diabetic. How preventable is type 2? Extremely. Or our in-depth analysis of how incredible mangoes are.

Oh, it's hard to explain to the rest of the world that, like, your mangoes are fine because mangoes are incredible, but like, you don't even know. You don't know. You don't know. It's going to be a fun ride. So tune in. Listen to health stuff on the I. Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And she said, Johnny, the kids didn't come home last night. Along the Central Texas Plains, teens are dying, suicides that don't make sense, strange accidents, and brutal murders. In what seems to be, a plot ripped straight out of Breaking Bad. Drugs, alcohol, trafficking of people. There are people out there that absolutely know what happened. Listen to paper ghosts, the Texas teen murders on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Lieutenant Governor Peggy Flanagan. Welcome to the show, guys. We talked about this earlier, but she is running, she's Lieutenant Governor of Minnesota, and she is also running for the Senate in the state of Minnesota in the Democratic primary. I believe her main challenger is Angie Craig, who's a current member of Congress.

Lieutenant Governor, welcome. Great to have you. Thanks so much for having me. I'm so happy to be here. Yeah, of course. It's our pleasure. Why don't you just introduce yourself a little bit for the audience, your background, how you ended up in politics and what some of the core issues are that motivate you? Sure, absolutely. So as you said, I'm a lieutenant governor of the great state of Minnesota. I've been in this role for the last seven years. But at my core, I am an organizer. I was raised on the the Wellstone for Senate campaign in 2002. I've been a school board member, the Executive Director of Children's Defense Fund, Minnesota, and also served in the House of Representatives here in Minnesota. And I'm a kid who felt like the bottom could fall out at any moment. And I know that there's too many people who feel that way right now. And that's why I decided to run for a United States Senate, because I think we need more people who understand what it feels like to try to stretch 20 bucks through the end of the month. And so I'm excited to be here. I'm a mom of a 12-year-old,

a middle schooler, and I live in the community that raised me of St. Louis Park. And I'm the highest-ranking Native American woman in executive office in the country. I'm a member of the white earth band of Ojibwe, which is the largest tribe here in Minnesota. And I know you've done a lot of work, you know, connecting indigenous communities as well. Yes. Yeah. Our, our, our, My understanding is that even though Angie Craig does not have the official endorsement of, say, Chuck Schumer at this point, she has all the, it's understood to those of us who are here in Washington, D.C. that Angie Craig is the, like, Democratic leadership candidate. One way they send those signals without sending them all the way is they have Nancy Pelosi and Hakeem Jeffries endorse. You're like, wait a minute, why are the House leaders endorsing the Senate candidate, but not the Senate leader? But, you know, and some unions and other, other signals that she's the candidate. So did you get any pressure from the National Party not to run? They say, look, the lane is cleared for Angie Craig.

It's, you know, this is, this is her nomination. What are you doing? And how is that affecting the campaign? So I certainly did get any explicit pressure to not run, to be clear. But what I would say is, you know, Ryan, I think you're right that I am not a Beltway darling. And if this race were held in Washington, D.C., I think my opponent would win. Lucky for me, it's being held in Minnesota. And so that's why I think that we're going to win this race.

You know, I have to tell you, I'm not the establishment candidate. And I think right now, especially going into 2026, that's a good thing. There's a particular formula. I think that people, maybe the establishment in Washington, like to see. I'm not part of that formula. But I think that that is what speaking to folks in this moment, as we're traveling all across the state of Minnesota, people are ready for bold leadership. They don't want folks who are going to nibble around the edges anymore. And I think that's what we saw all across the country in the most recent elections. And that's why I'm in this. So, you know, know, if there's folks who are all in for my opponent, that's just fine. We're going to spend this time working on the ground, organizing with real folks. And being really clear, I think that this race is about what is facing the Democratic Party overall, because it is a corporate Democrat versus someone with progressive values who's been delivering for working families for a long time.

And I think that that's what people are interested in in this moment. Do you think that message potentially in a general election is powerful with people who maybe voted for Donald Trump or voted for Republican candidates in the past? Do you think your background as a left-wing populist is actually something that helps you? I don't know if you have conversations with people who voted for Trump or maybe other Republicans who are disillusioned, disenchanted now, where your sort of flavor of Bernie-style populism is appealing? I certainly think it is. And we're actually seeing it as we're going across the state. So we've been holding what we call kitchen table conversations. And so it's a little less scripted town hall and a little bit more community meeting.

So, of course, we have folks who are coming, who are Democrats. We've got a lot of independence or folks who are like, I don't agree with, you know, any political party, but I'm really freaked out by what I see happening here. And then we have Republicans. We were in a community of Canby, Minnesota, which is in southwestern Minnesota, small town. And we had these four guys show up who sort of were all, like, had their arms crossed over their chest in the back of the room. And, you know, and I was like, I wonder what these guys were about. And one of them raised his hand. And he said, you know, we all voted for Trump in 16, in 20.

And we didn't vote for, quote, unquote, that lady in 2024. They said, but we're here because you're a tough cookie. And then they went on to say that they were concerned about SNAP being pulled out of the ag bill and what that means for the future of farmers. So, like, we've always been able to count on the fact that this was going to get done. And he said, you know, the, you know, little secret that people won't tell you is how many farmers themselves rely on SNAP to keep food on the table. And so I think that those are the things that are resonating with people. And no matter where I go, it can be in, you know, the urban. core, the suburbs, rural communities, healthcare is the thing that I hear about over and over and over

again. So that is like, we don't have to agree on everything. But I think what we can agree on is that it's like literally all of us versus extremist billionaires and the folks at the very, very top who are doing incredibly well under the Trump administration. And I think that's what can galvanize us. Folks know that the game is rigged. And we just have to talk about it. What did you think of the shutdown deal that was, you know, agreed to by eight Democrats in the Senate. And do you believe that Chuck Schumer should continue to be the Democratic leader? So I'll tell you, it would have not even crossed my mind to, to like even entertain voting for that deal. Talk about, you know, clutching defeat from, you know, the mouth of victory. I just, I feel like, you know, of course I want to be

very clear. The shutdown and our federal employees, TSA workers, folks who depend on SNAP, that was incredibly hard. And I know that we had people who were coming along with us. I think case in point elections literally all across the country that said keep fighting for us. And so I just don't understand it. So the answer is like, I want to vote for it. I'm incredibly disappointed in the eight Senate Democrats and now four members of the House who went along. I think we only have a handful of tools in our toolbox right now as Democrats. This was one of them.

And I'm sick and tired of Democrats fighting from a defensive crouch. And I think we lost some ground with people. And now I, along with others, have to, you know, work to rebuild that trust and say, I'm going to fight for you. That is not the kind of Democrat that I, am. I think the job of a caucus leader is to keep folks together. And we certainly did not see that. It's, I think it's going to take a lot for, for folks to feel like they can trust this party again. And that's, you know, that's what's at stake. And Neku said, I, I think I feel the same

way about Chuck Schumer that he feels about me. Uncommunity is what I would say. And so, you know, as it's been reported, I don't think I'm his candidate in this race. That's okay. We're just going to keep organizing and we're going to win. A number of Democrats have said that he should step down as leader. Do you think he should step down as leader? Would you support him next time. Let's say you win and he runs for caucus leader again. There's also been some speculation that he won't even run for re-election. Do you think he should decline to run for re-election? I mean, I think any leader should take time to, you know, reflect on where they are needed and necessary. I would say there's a lot of time, right, between now and the election. I'm really

going to focus on my... But what about right now on, like, Rokana and a fair number of other Democrats have said enough, like, this is an urgent moment. You just, you should step down now. Do you think you should step down now? That's not my decision to make, but I think he should seriously reflect on the direction of the party, the need to rebuild trust. Here's what, and here's what I think is, is so hard about this moment, is that there are people outside of the Beltway who know that things are on fire, right? And so I think that is that disconnect between how people are living right now and what's happening in Washington, D.C. That, I think, is what deserves a lot of

reflection. Because when I'm in communities and I'm talking to a librarian who says my deductibles $15,000 a year and that I just went to the doctor for a five-minute med check and it cost me 600 bucks. And I don't know whether or not we're going to be able to afford health care next year at all. And we're like nibbling around the edges and somehow, you know, saying like, well, we sure brought them the fight by raising, you know, this idea that health care is expensive and that somehow that's enough. It's, it's baloney. And I think it just speaks to how disconnected people feel right now from what's what's happening in Washington. So, you know, again, I think Chuck Schumer just isn't that into me, and that's okay.

And, you know, I'm going to keep doing the work that I need to do here in Minnesota and focus on this race and making sure that people here have the fighter that they need and someone who's willing to take on corporate interests and not capitulate to make sure that, you know, the money keeps coming in to the party. And Lieutenant Governor, real quickly, if I could play a quick clip for you, a Minnesota DFL member who was at a party auction slash fundraiser earlier this month. You may have even been at this one, I don't know. Angie Craig was there and she's kind of leading an auction. And she gets pressed by a Democrat who's in the audience about her position on Gaza. And I want to play her very strange and hard to understand response, but I and then get your response to this. Let me play this video here. $3007 million for you.

$500, $500. Anybody who have $500? We believe in democracy in this country. We are not a cult, it's Democrats. So it goes on like that. She just kind of continues the auction. But she says, you know, we believe in democracy.

this country, we are not a cult in response to the person pressing her on whether or not she was going to stand up against the genocide in Gaza. So any response to that clip itself, but also where do you stand when it comes to, you know, U.S. support for the Israeli military? Sure. So I was there. Okay. I was, yeah, I was at that dinner. And, you know, there were a handful of young people who were there, who, you know, spent their own money to be at this dinner. And I think we're looking for an opportunity to engage. And it was a pack room. Folks are fired up.

And, you know, all of us gave a little speech. And that happened. What I decided to do. What does she mean? cult. I mean, I think it was just sort of a wild moment with, as you could hear, a lot of yelling. It was an action. Like, we all, all the electeds or candidates had to auction off an item. And that's, that's, that's what happened. So I decided, you know, before I left to pull these young people aside. And I talked to them. Because, you know, they, they were there.

to express their viewpoints, and I think that's important. And I think when young people are showing up on our party, it's important to make sure that they feel heard. Now, I want to be really clear. I am not taking money from APAC. I also don't believe that they would give it to me. So, you know, that's also part of this. But, you know, what has happened is, you know, I was asked about the Sanders resolution,

this summer that both of my senators, Senator Tina Smith and Senator Amy Klobuchar, voted in favor of to stop offensive weapons from getting to Netanyahu's government. And it was, you know, for me, because we saw the starvation of children in Gaza. And I think there are, again, a handful of tools in our toolbox.

we can use when we see something happening that's that's not right. And to be really clear, you know, the same reason why I would have supported that resolution when I see starving children is the same reason why I support breakfast and lunch being offered to kids' universal wheels at school, right? Like that is a consistent through line. And, you know, of course, what happened on October 7th is absolutely horrific and the trauma and the violence was unacceptable and what we see, the response from Netanyahu's government of preventing aid of leveling entire neighborhoods and communities

is not right. And so I am now a target. for APAC because I spoke up. And, you know, I'm going to continue to, you know, I reserve the right to critique my own government and Donald Trump. And I certainly reserve the right to critique Benjamin Netanyahu and his government as well. So I know that this is an issue. APAC is supporting my opponent to the tune of hundreds of thousands of dollars. And so we're going to be competitive when it comes to fundraising, but it's also, I also, that's not, not how I'm interested in funding my camp. What did you tell the, the protesters, the students? Were they students? Were they, what did you tell them and what they tell you? They were, they were students. And, you know, they just said, we just want an opportunity to have a conversation. And I think, you know, and she was sort of scuttled out the back door of the kitchen.

I think people deserve that. And listen, like, you can decide to take money from whoever you want you to fund your campaign. To me, integrity matters. And, you know, and so, like, I shared that with them. They asked how, you know, if I was taking A PAC money and I said no. And mostly I just listened. And I think that that is, I think that that's what people are interested in right now. And so if you're not going to even engage, like, what does that say, right? About our democracy. I just, we don't have enough young people in this party. We don't have enough young people who are banging on the door to say, like, I want to be part of this work. I want to be part of this movement. I think we have a responsibility to do everything we can to say you're welcome here. And again, we don't have to agree on everything. But you get to have to have.

you know, your voice heard in this process. And I worry about what that means. If we keep shutting young people down over and over again, maybe they're not going to turn out for the other guys. It's just not going to turn out at all. What do you see, Lieutenant Governor, as the primary differences between you and Congresswoman Angie Craig? What are some of the key policy differences that you see? Sure. So I would say the, you know, the biggest thing is really how we approaching, you know, our elections. I've decided not to take corporate PAC money. That's incredibly important to me, I think especially right now when people know that the game is rigged. You know, I certainly knew that corporations had a lot of power in Washington. It wasn't until

I started running for the U.S. Senate that I was like, whew, they sure do. And so, you know, this has been a point where, for me, that's incredibly important. is to say that I want to be accountable to the people of Minnesota and to our small dollar donors all across the country. Because I think it's pretty disingenuous to say, I'm going to hold big pharma accountable while at the same time taking a big check from a pharmaceutical company. People are smarter than that. And I think that that is really the core of what this is about. Are you going to show for the corporate interests? Are you going to work for working people? You know, I also think things like raising the minimum wage, paid family and medical leave, making sure, you know, as we're talking about health care across the state, it is time to just say what is needed and necessary, which is to get rid of prior authorization.

So some dude behind a desk doesn't get to decide whether or not you get the life-saving health care that you deserve or worse yet, AI or a robot doesn't get to make that decision. and that we need Medicare for all. And, you know, I think that that has been the clearest difference between the two of us that I am willing to take on these big corporations and to fight for what folks need. And I am not being financed by the very people who are responsible for the reason that the economy looks like, how it looks now, for, you know, for middle class folks and for folks who are on the margins. Yeah, and Craig yourself. No, go ahead.

Go ahead, Ryan. go ahead, Ryan. Craig herself, correct me if I'm wrong, because I covered her 2018 race. She was actually recruited by the D-Triple-C in that race against some other, you know, more progressive candidates there. So my recollection, she was a- And sorry, Ryan, we're going to have to wrap her. She's got a hard out parent-teacher conference in a sec, so we'll do this last question, and then we'll wrap her. She was a medical device executive, is that right? Like, she worked for a medical device company or something. Like, normally Democrats are finding, like, female fighter pilots or something. So how does that, how does her background in corporate America, like, play into your campaign here?

I mean, you know, I think I don't know how hard we'll lean into like her expertise. I think we're both highly qualified, right, women who are running for office. I think it is about just who do you want your candidates beholden to, right? Corporate interests or real people. And I think that's, you know, really what this, this campaign's all about. Just very quickly, because you raised AI, I know there have been a few high-profile data center fights in Minnesota. You know, what is your view of the mass data center build out its impact on electricity prices and the environment? I mean, I think we have to have additional protections in there for consumers.

I think there's a difference between an AI center that has a closed water system versus one that does not. You know, when we see folks who are coming into building communities, I think a lot of times folks are getting a really raw deal. So I think we have to take a really good look at what does that actually mean. They're bringing jobs and that's needed and necessary, especially for the build and construction. But how do we make sure that those benefits continue? And, you know, that's deeply concerning to me. And it's something that we hear all across the country. I think, you know, they're needed and necessary.

However, we have to have additional protections in place for consumers and for folks who live around them to make sure that they're just not getting a raw deal. Lieutenant Governor, thank you so much for your time. We really appreciate it. It's great to get to meet you. Thanks so much for having me. We appreciate you. You are a pleasure.

All right. On that note, what did you guys think? Yeah, yeah, yeah, okay. We can debrief. Ryan, what do you think? Yeah, she was about to be governor if Harris Walls hadn't shut the bed.

Oh, that's true. Yeah, I hadn't even thought about that. Yeah, there was a lot of people in Minnesota were really rooting for Walls to become vice president just so she could become governor. So there's a double disappointment in Minnesota when Wallace came slinking back to the governor's mansion. She's got Bernie's backing.

She's one of the candidates that he has endorsed. I mean, there's a number of high-profile races at this point that are basically like Schumer versus Bernie, which is a kind of a fun dynamic, a telling dynamic. But I actually worked with one of the candidates it's that was opposed. And I can't remember his name at this point. He's a teacher who was in the race against Angie Craig. So I've been very familiar with her. Yeah. I remember him. Yeah.

For a while. Yeah. And, but yeah, I mean, she comes out of the like medical device industry and has done a number of favors for them. And they have a large footprint in Minnesota as my rock collection as well. Like it's a big business there. So for, you know, I think Peggy is obviously really trying to cut a pretty clear contrast in terms of like the source of their funding, the way that they're going about their campaigns. And then, you know, the fact that she's a Medicare for all supporter is also obviously a significant divide at a time when health care is increasingly on the minds of people. Yeah. It is, you know, it is interesting because it's like, okay, medical device, it's a big industry, fine. But like, do we really need a medical device executive representing them in the

Senate? It's, it is such a classic rate, like a corporate. I don't know, I don't understand the hesitation in throwing Chuck Schumer under the bus. Like she said, he doesn't like me. He's not supporting me. It's like, why can't you repay the favor? Kyle and I interviewed Antonio Delgado, who is the lieutenant governor actually of New York yesterday and is challenging Kathy Hogle and is also the progressive insurgent candidate. And same thing. I don't know what it is the hold that Chuck Schumer has. That is just something invisible underneath the surface. I mean, Ryan, do you have any insurgent? side into that. Because Delgado is New York, I was like, an AOC also was very wouldn't come out and say he should step down. AOC and Bernie have both been keeping their powder dry on this. And it's like,

you guys are the revolutionaries? Like, what's going on here? Yeah. So I was thinking maybe there's some New York thing that I don't get with, but then to hear her so reluctant to like, what is this? I don't get it. I assume it's because if Schumer is still leader and she wins, you want to start off from your committees. And it screws your state of stuff too. Yeah, you just can't be doing

this cat. If you're going to be the insurgent and like you're thrown in for that. Yeah, he's already, he's already going to hate you. I think that's what people don't understand. Like Ted Cruz was never going to make nice with Mitch McConnell. Mitch McConnell is always going to hate you. It's fun. He might tell you likes you, but he's always going to hate you.

And I do think. Schumer is just going to retire after this term too, don't you, Ryan? Because he's going to lose that way. Yeah. Right. It's like it's lifeguard rules. You know, if someone's drowning, you got to make sure they don't like,

you don't drown with them, right? You have to like, you got to pull them out. But if they're going to pull you down, well, you got to get up. But if you get points for voters for pushing them under the water, then take the points. Exactly. Yeah. Roe understands that, you know, clearly understands that. I'm not trying to be overly negative.

I thought she's, she's, she's impressive. You know, she's got a lot to offer. And certainly the contrast between her and Angie Craig who gets tons of money from, you know, pharma and device industry and APAC and whatever. Like there's, you know, very clear contrast here. But I'm just sort of puzzling over why this is difficult for not just her, but any number of candidates to just be like, yeah, you know, we should listen to the base. The base is done with Schumer. What's time to move on. And we're going to move on. We're going to do one last segment here in the public. that I wanted to get to before we switch over to the second half of the show, and that is an AI story. We did ask her about AI data centers, and Anthropic had a little interesting message they released where they said, this is from Anthropic AI's Twitter account, we disrupted a highly sophisticated AI-led espionage campaign, the attack targeted large tech companies, financial institutions, chemical manufacturing companies, and government agencies. We assess with high confidence that the threat actor was a Chinese state-sponsored group. What are we to make of this first, a publicly announced, AI-led cyber attack? Let me read a little bit more from the article that they posted just to get a few more of the details here, which I think are very consequential.

They said, again, from Anthropic, we recently argued an inflection point had been reached in cybersecurity, A point at which AI models had become genuinely useful for cybersecurity operations, both for good and for ill. This was based on systematic evaluation showing cyber capabilities doubling in six months. We'd also been tracking real-world cyber attacks observing how malicious actors were using AI capabilities. While we predicted these capabilities would continue to evolve what has stood out to us as how quickly they have done so at scale. In mid-September 2025, we detected suspicious activity that later investigation determined to be a highly sophisticated espionage campaign. The attackers used AI's agentic capabilities.

So these AI agents that they've been really pushing and very excited about is sort of like the next evolution of AI technology, that's what was used here. And they say they used it to an unprecedented degree using AI not just as an advisor, but to execute the cyber attacks themselves. They say this group that they assess to be a Chinese state sponsor group manipulated our Claude Code. tool into attempting infiltration into roughly 30 global targets and succeeded in a small number of cases that are operation targeted large tech companies, financial institutions, chemical manufacturing companies, which is a little scary, and government agencies. We believe this is the first documented case of a large-scale cyber attack executed without substantial human intervention. So that all sounds really bad. And here we are just like

going along, you know, building out these data centers, watching Open AI and these other companies like proposed throwing

trillions of dollars at this stuff, any sort of breaks that were on the car completely taken away, just Wild West, off to the races. And we are just at the beginning

of the potential fallout. And here we already have AI with the capability to pull off a mass cyber attack hacking campaign independent of any human involvement.

This is a, I think it's a pretty terrifying moment, frankly. Yeah. Somebody's going to get killed. Like, that's, that's, somebody is actually going to die because they lose control of this stuff. And we're all going to say, we're all going to go through the motions of, wow, you know, we really need to start thinking so seriously. And we need to do something. And everybody's already going through the motions of, wow, we need to think so seriously. It's moving so fast.

But it's like, it's going to take people dying for anyone who actually has power over this to say, well, we need guardrails. I mean, it's going to have me. It's going to be like an AI Chernobyl event is what we're going to need, right? Like, we're going to need some sort of mass casualty event before there's any regulation or any of this stuff. It's dark. But you know what? Griffin and Emily, you're exactly right in that this is actually what a lot of people in the AI safety or AI alignment. space sort of hope for that there's something that captures the public's attention that is

really bad but is containable and, you know, not a total like destruction of all of human civilization that opens people's eyes and forces some sort of a reckoning. I mean, that is the point where we're at where, you know, if they're being honest, these AI safety researchers who are looking at this and feel like already you have AI that is capable of. of, you know, deceit is capable now of these mass hacking attacks that already were at a place where we don't really know what has been built to this point. I saw someone else speculating. I wish I could remember what article this was in that basically like, well, maybe if AI quickly gets rid of like 10% of the jobs, that would be enough to trigger some sort of

a mass social revolt. But before we ended with complete societal collapse, like that's the Those are the sort of scenarios that are being openly discussed as like a best case scenario. It's, I mean, it's horrifying. And then, I mean, I guess the real best case scenario is that this is all a speculative bubble, which is possible, that we never really get beyond where we are right now of, you know, okay, you've got some chatbots and you got some videos. And now apparently you have the capability to hack a bunch, which is not great. But, you know, it doesn't live up to the promise. There's a major financial collapse in correction. That would cause mass pain as well.

But at least it wouldn't be the sort of like total societal collapse or civilizational upheaval that is being promised slash threatened by this technology. That's the other potential outcome. But, you know, when you see things like that, you start to feel like we may already be past the kind of like least bad alternatives that face us on the road at this point. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And the fact that it, they suggest it came from China is really dispiriting too because it's like. because that's the argument that they keep using against people who say shut all this crap down.

But China, it was China, but it used American AI tools. Right. It was a co-lab. Yeah. Yeah, a little crossover. Yeah, and then I've also seen people saying this is actually why the ethical people who are telling us we need to make warm and fuzzy AIs are wrong

because we actually have to prepare for all-out war. It's like, well, Jesus, none of those just all, slither throats now like that's you know i mean the only solution really is as a global summit where they do the same thing they did with nuclear nonproliferation right like it has to be treated that way because it has power over the entire world it's not it doesn't stop at anybody's borders it has power over the entire world it's moving more quickly even the most powerful people in the industry say more quickly than they are able to keep up with uh they're They do not know how it works, why it does X, Y, and Z in every scenario.

And that's, again, people are going to die before they actually have any kind of summit. Can we, can we pull up the Matt Walsh tweet? I was just going to bring that up. Because not only, this is going to change our realities and potentially like our political formations. If Ryan Grimm and Matt Walsh are now BFFs, like there are new political. He's been saying good stuff about this for a while, actually. Yeah, yeah, he has. I mean, I can pull it up.

I don't have it on hand, but essentially like Ryan, like Matt Walsh was saying that, hey, we're scared that we're coming up on like potentially 10 to 25 million jobs lost in the very near future that we're walking straight into a wall and there's no one in politics really doing anything about it. Unfortunately, when I search Matt Walsh and Ryan Graham, I just get Ryan destroying him on Haiti. I said brochip to Port of Prince. I had before They can hash this out We'll call it the Port of Prince summit And they'll hash this out So many summits need to happen

But Ryan, what did you make of this new Alliance, if you will? I don't know if it's horseshoe, but it's something. I mean, it's not new. Like, there are concerns on the left and the right about this. And he's right that it doesn't sort well

into our politics. And so therefore, politicians have just managed to not talk about it. So he write, here's what he said. Said, and here I can, I can put it up. One second. So he says, AI is going to wipe out at least 25 million jobs in the next five to 10 years, probably much more. It will destroy every creative field.

It will make it impossible to discern reality from fiction. It will absolutely obliterate what's left of the education system. kids will go through 12 years of grade school and learn absolutely nothing. AI will do it all for them. We have already seen the last truly literate generation. All of this is coming and fast. There is still time to prevent some of the worst outcomes or at least put them off. But our leaders aren't doing a single thing about any of this. None of them are taking it seriously. We're sleepwalking into a dystopia that any rational person can see from miles away. It drives me nuts. Or we really just going to lie down and let AI take everything from us.

Is that the plan? Well, well said. And you can add on to it the way that Mark Zuckerberg has suggested that this kind of thing is a solution to the like the loneliness crisis. Because now you can have people just sitting around chatting with AIs all day. And, you know, it's like, no, we don't want this. Like nobody wants this. And so can't, some. somebody do something about it. It's like his, his like plea resonates. It's like, it's like,

isn't there somebody who's going to do something about this? Right. But then there needs to be the next step of, I mean, yes, someone could do something about it. It's called the Trump administration. They're the ones who, you know, I mean, listen, it's not like Biden was like, had all the breaks on them. They were doing some stuff. And that's part of why these tech oligarchs all aligned against Biden. It's one of the reasons. And, you know, in the Trump administration, they're given free reign. You got David Sachs in there. Obviously, Peter Thiel is a giant, a major ally. Mark Andresen is a major ally. Elon was literally part of the government. You know, even Sam Altman, Elon's nemesis is brought in for these government deals, Zuckerberg, hanging out with Trump,

sucking up to him, et cetera. You know, there's a major push directly from this administration, go in this direction. And so if you're going to really be part of the, I appreciate the sentiment. I'm not trying to like, you know, whatever. I appreciate the sentiment. It's something. Emily and I have been talking about a lot with the Peter Teal, Antichrist and what he's up to there and the coalition, political coalition that needs to come together and how it doesn't sort ideologically neatly like you said. But we need you to make that next step and realize who the enemy is here. And the enemy is this administration. You know, you heard Steve Bannon early on raising flags about these like transhumanists with this anti-human

ideology. It's truly what it is. And so, you know, if you're just raising the concern without pointing the finger at the people who right now are pushing this the hardest and the fastest, it's a little impotent. Well, and the Trump administration is falling for it, hook, line, and sinker. And, you know, I'm bringing people in who aren't just falling for it, but who are obviously part of orchestrating this takeover of the entire world, not just our politics, not just our government, not just our media, but the entire world. So it's a happening extremely quickly. You couldn't imagine, honestly, a worse situation where you have a president who is totally obsessed with flattery and addicted to flattery and is very easily swayed

by grifts like a meme coin in order to advance his personal wealth and is easily swayed by the ideological pitch. You know, like you can make lots of money, but it's also, you know, sort of anti-world economic forum, anti-global governance, which, by the way, it's not, but just saying that he is particularly susceptible to that kind of persuasion and flattery. And right now with the deregulatory push in the Trump administration, which some of which I obviously support as a conservative, but not in this. And so you have like the perfect storm of things happening for an accelerating AI capture. and takeover, and nobody,

everyone's saying we should hit the pause button, except for the tech oligarchs, but nobody is actually doing anything to hit the pause button or to create a pause button. Even lots of the tech oligarchs are saying it. And Trump, I think, knows that the whole stock market is held up by NVIDIA, like the entire thing, the entire U.S. economy is being floated by NVIDIA right now

without AI, you know, and data center construction. there's zero GDP growth, 80% of the gains in the stock market are AI stock gains. Actually, there is a bit of a slide. I haven't checked in again this morning, but in the futures this morning, I know things were looking pretty bad in the stock market. NASDAQ was falling because, yeah, because, yeah, stock sell-off extends weighing on the Dow now. So, you know, he understands the stock market and really puts a lot of, quote-unquote, stock to be corny in what the numbers there say.

So I even think from that perspective, like he's just going to continue to inflate that bubble as long as he possibly can. Yeah. I'm also, I'm not familiar with like Matt Walsh's populist takes or what he has to say about all that. But I do think the daily wire types are going to come into some sort of friction with this AI battle. Because, you know, if your AI critiques are going to be a little limp, if you don't, if you're, if you're always saying, oh, we shouldn't demonize billionaires. We shouldn't demonize people who are successful. But this AI hyper AI scalification is the result of runaway capitalism. And if you don't have an approach or an understanding of that,

then all of your AI critiques are going to have no solutions. Ish, you know, it's ironically, it's interesting. Like, who do you trust more right now, China or the U.S.? To build some sort of ethical like AI that doesn't destroy the world? It's like this surveillance state, the authoritarian surveillance state or the U.S. And it's like, wow, yeah, actually it's not an obvious because there's, like there at least is like a pretense toward a public interest there where in the U.S., that's not the case. It's just, you know, gloves off, you know, zero sum battle between the oligarchs. To be honest with you.

What's that? I genuinely just think it all needs to be shut down. I think we're at that point. where we know that. And like the nice chat, like you can have like there, you don't have to like go back to like zero AI. You can still have like the,

you know, there are the low level benefits of it. Like transcription is better. There's a lot of, there's a lot of technology can do when it comes to coding and software development. And that's great. That's fine.

But like this thing where you're like, it's thinking for itself and doing its own. And, you know, acting on in its own self-interest like no i don't know we're good like we got and trying to and trying to pull the rug over your eyes and say it's not right like it's doing it's it's acting its own self-interest well obviously smart enough to try and uh deceive you that it's not doing anything wrong whatsoever to the point where you lose track of it and you have no idea which they are all saying is happening they are losing track of it so yeah i mean i think one of the reasons that

we do what we do is that most of us realize or all of us realize some of these battles that are coming in the future are going to require people who disagree on a lot of stuff to fundamentally agree that what we're coming up on is a battle between like pro-humanism and transhumanism or whatever the hell they call this because it's happening really quickly anti-humanism. I think is probably a better way to put it. And it's important to just recognize that people who support like humanity are going to be on like there are going to be a lot of, I think, strange bedfellows, but are up against, you know, Peter Thiel

trying to convince the Matt Walsh's of the world that it would be far worse to, you know, yes, it's scary. The future is scary. Yes, you're right. All of these possibilities could prove true, but you know what would be worse? Not doing anything.

And that's the, I think, the sophisticated version of the seductive efforts happening from the oligarchs. well we have a guest coming on the show next week who has been writing about AI 2027 so look forward to that and more dumerism on the artificial intelligence we're going to switch over to the second half of the show now if you want to check that out go to breaking points.com sign up become a member it's in the video description there'll be a link and we'll see you all there in the second half The kids didn't come home last night. Along the Central Texas Plains, teens are dying. Suicides that don't make sense. Strange accidents and brutal murders.

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