Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 11/26/23: Ryan Reveals Secrets Of 'The Squad', Trump Winning Swing Voters, Australian Unions For Palestine, Dark Side Of McKinsey Consulting, UAW Wrap Up

Episode Date: November 26, 2023

This week we talk to Ryan Grim about his new book The Squad: AOC and the Hope of a Political Revolution, we're joined by our Focus Group moderator James Johnson to talk about Swing Voters leaning Trump, Max Alvarez talks to Australian Unions for Palestine, James Li hits the streets to talk to business students about McKinsey and the dark side of consulting, and we do a UAW wrap up on the aftermath of one of the most successful strikes in modern American history. Ryan's new book: https://www.amazon.com/Squad-AOC-Hope-Political-Revolution/dp/1250869072 To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, let's get to the show. Welcome back to Breaking Points. Crystal and I are so excited to be joined right now by my CounterPoints co-host, Ryan Grimm, who happens to be the author of a brand new book.

It's out on December 5th. You can start getting it in bookstores the Monday after Thanksgiving. It's called The Squad, AOC and the Hope of a Political Revolution. It's fantastic. There's so many nuggets in it, Ryan. Are you enjoying it? Yes, yes. Thanks for joining us here, Ryan. Great to see you, Ryan.

Thanks for having me on here. Congrats. Love to talk about the book. Well, it ended up being extra timely because obviously the arc of the squad is just important in American politics and for, you know, that AIPAC and their spinoff, the Democratic Majority for Israel, has aggressively tried to shape the, you know, Democratic caucus, who gets in, who gets out, what their views are. So it ends up being extra timely because of that piece. Yeah, I have a line in there that finishes the first chapter that kind of introduces AOC, where that arc ends, if you remember, a couple of weeks after she wins her

primary, you know, she's soaring, her star is rising. She's crushing every interview. She's becoming a global celebrity. And then she does an interview where she gets asked about Israel, Palestine. And it's just like, boom. I mean, it's just clear she doesn't really, she knows it's a tough topic. She knows she doesn't know enough about the topic. And she just, the inexperience is very clear in that moment. And her instincts are that she supports Palestinian rights and Palestinian dignity. And she says the word Palestine in the interview. An occupation, right?

I think occupation, yeah. In the interview, which somebody who is more schooled in the subject will be like, yeah, that's what I call the region. And there is an occupation. Like, that's what's happening. But the interviewer is like, did you say Palestine? Margaret Hoover. Yeah. And you can see AOC's face be like, oh God, did I hit a third rail? It's a feeling because you know there are third rails, you know there are landmines everywhere. Right. And you just, you've put your foot down and you heard a click and you're like,

is that about to blow up or not? Because I don't know. And she finishes by saying, look, I'm not an expert on geopolitics. This isn't something that we talked about a lot at my Bronx dinner table growing up. And it's very unusual for somebody to like admit on TV that you don't know much about something like that. It's very rare. And then as I report in the book, they pull her off interviews for a while. Like, okay, let's like relax for a little bit. And then the line that finishes that chapter is that was built around Medicare for all, higher minimum wage,

basically economic populism and a Green New Deal would end up being just consumed by this question of Israel-Palestine. And that's because the fight was kind of brought to them immediately after they got to Congress. Pro-Israel groups just stand up these super PACs that start spending millions of dollars against them. It's alphabet. And the cool thing about the book is that you go behind the scenes of some of these huge moments. Like, for example, the Margaret Hoover interview. You're, like, right there with AOC talking about how her team is handling it. You have information from behind the scenes that makes all this really fascinating.

I wanted to ask how the squad sees itself now in 2023. First of all, how do they kind of define themselves? You have justice Democrats, then you have people that are sort of broadly recognized as members of the squad. How self-aware are they in Congress as they're working together or not working together? It's heavily female. Obviously, you have Jamal Bowman on the book cover, but it does seem almost like a sisterhood. Yeah. And I think as the book shows, they sort of struggled with that question of what is the squad or kind of is the squad? Like several of them at different points would say

there is no such thing as the squad. It's the first rule of the squad. The squad doesn't exist. You can't acknowledge that there is a squad. And in many ways they were right. Like it was a media creation built on their, but they played along with it. It came from an Instagram kind of post that AOC put up. It was just a picture of the four of them and she just wrote squad. And that was during the kind of rise of the kind of, you know, femboss, like feminism, like girl power. They did a, you know, there was a cover with them and Nancy Pelosi, which obviously they were not a squad at all. And she's like... We should get that framed for the studio.

That was a media effort to like kind of strip ideology away from what was fundamentally an ideological movement. Omar says at one point, there is no squad. There's no such thing. But of course, there also is a thing because if you are getting attacked as a group, it kind of forms you into a group. And so you're kind of forged by fire in that sense. And when Pelosi, whether it's Pelosi in 2019, Donald Trump in 2019 saying, send them back. One kind of funny little detail I realized

when going back through the history was at Netroots Nation, which is the liberal blogosphere kind of conference. Oh, I've been. There you go. That's where Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar Netroots Nation, which is, you know, the liberal blogosphere kind of conference. Oh, I've been. There you go. That's where Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar said some things that got Trump mad and got him to start saying, send them back. Pelosi would love to buy them tickets to send them back.

Deb Haaland was on stage with them. It wasn't the squad. It was those three plus Deb Haaland, literally Native American. Forget the fact that the rest are American citizens and you're not sending them anywhere. Literally a Native American saying, send her back. But I don't think Trump cared about that. But so I think that effort to kind of attack them, kind of push them into being a group. But at the same time, as Ayanna Pressley told the squad, you vote alone. And so you vote alone and you vote for your district.

And they would often talk about how they were voting for their district. And in some ways, I think they resented this insistence that they were supposed to lead a vanguard of the left. And there was a marriage of convenience in some ways between Justice Democrats and the squad members. Like the Justice Democrats was useful to some of these squad members to separate themselves, particularly in Ayanna Pressley's case, you know, from like, why do you need to throw out Michael Capuano? And then, well, I'm Justice Democrat. I'm like AOC. I'm like, so that's, you know, that becomes the rationale for it. But then you're like, you don't, they didn't really have the sense of like, well, I'm going to like, you know, like lead a movement here. And they never teamed up with Bernie in a way that became kind of mechanical. Well, it's interesting because right now in this present moment

with Israel's war in Gaza, they have actually acted more like a squad. You know, they've been some of the most outspoken critics of the Biden approach, of the indiscriminate bombing in Gaza, calling for a ceasefire, leading these letters. And so talk a little bit about how actually the amount of money and the amount of attacks that they received in their primaries and as being members of Congress coming from the pro-Israel lobby actually kind of hardened them into these positions and unintentionally made them leaders on it. It could be because if AOC never gets, let's say AOC never gets pressed further on the question of Israel, Palestine, Gaza,

her focus is going to continue to be climate change, raising the minimum wage, and broadly trying to pull the Democratic Party to the left and kind of advance the agenda that Bernie Sanders ran on the first time in 2015, 2016. But if you force the question in a similar way to the way that kind of Karl Rove did in 2004 by putting marriage equality on the ballot on all of these states around the country, that forced Democrats to pick a side. Because they would have been happy to say, civil union, marriage between a man and a woman, leave me alone. I don't want to, this is icky, I don't want to think about this. But when you force the Democratic Party to take a stance on a fundamentally civil rights issue, eventually they're going to have to, they're going to be forced by their base to get on the right side of it.

And I think particularly with Israel-Palestine, the more people, as you study the history, as you study what's going on, as you visit the area, Jamal Bowman went with J Street to see it. And he was bizarrely like protested by, some people associate with DSA, how dare you like go with J Street to Israel. But seeing it firsthand, seeing the occupation up close, you come back changed. You can, once you move past the propaganda around it and you see it firsthand, and you really understand what's going on, you can only wind up on one side if you're a progressive Democrat.

So I think that it that is what has effectively happened. Also, as Summer Lee told me, she's like, I was like, did you consider moderating your views on this the way that a lot of other candidates did? And she was like, well, no, but only because that wouldn't have worked. Right. They were coming for me either way. She did say that, like, it's in her head. Like, she admitted, like, that the millions of dollars that were spent, it does get in your head. Of course.

And you, like, think two or three times before you say something. But she's like, in the end, it doesn't matter because they're coming for me. And not just because of two tweets I had about Gaza in 2021. It's because of my broader kind of left wing, you know, multiracial working class agenda that is in opposition to the donors to AIPAC and to DMFI. Like they have other interests as well besides just Israel-Palestine. Yeah. They want to keep their tax loopholes and keep their taxes low and all that and fight back against unions and that sort of stuff.

Yes, of course. So my last question is something you get towards in the end of the book about the kind of attempt to make an apples to apples between the squad and the Freedom Caucus, which isn't, you know, a dumb comparison. There's some interesting points of comparison there. And something I thought that was interesting in your reporting was that there is some awareness, actually, of how the Freedom Caucus has flexed their muscles over the last 10 years among members of the squad. There's a hilarious conversation about Lauren Boebert with AOC. She has some really funny thoughts on Lauren Boebert. And that's an interesting, yeah, who among us? But that is an interesting sort of question for

the squad is how they, do they force the vote? Do they, I mean, how has their thinking evolved on using their numbers to force some of these conversations? I think they have definitely heard the criticism and it's something I think that they're sorting through. I think when it comes to some issues like, I go through force the vote a little bit in there. Please don't. No, no, no, guys. I would love to talk about bit in there. Please don't. No, no, no, guys. I would love to talk about Forcing the Vote. Please don't.

What are your guys' thoughts on this? We're just going to do Force the Vote every day for the entire show for the rest of our lives. On that, they're like, no, that wasn't it. But they do get the idea. They are into the idea that they want to build their leverage. And, you know, toward the end of it, AOC is saying, you know, now that we're approaching 10 to 12, like that's a place where there's power that can be leveraged and in a way that won't be annihilated. And there was a sense of weakness that I think contributed to some,

as well as like a sense of being new and not really having a sense of how this is all going to end. At the same time though, will there still be 10 or 12 at the end of this next election cycle? Or will there be two? Like, you know, it is quite possible

that a lot of them could get wiped out by APAC and DMFI money. Yeah. Which just announced they're going to spend $100 million against them. Sort of. The sourcing on that was a little dicey. Oh, really? Yeah. It's like, I think it was sourced to people who are watching or something.

However, the $100 million is plausible. Because if they're spending $5 million in 20 races, that gets you there right away. And it's not implausible, but APAC hasn't quite come out and said they're going to do that. They haven't confirmed or denied that money. They're going to spend an enormous amount of money. Gotcha. That is clear. Whether $100 million is the number.

Last time they spent like $40 million collectively between the pro-reserve groups. So it wouldn't be insane to see 100. Gotcha. Well, the book is fantastic. I'm almost through it. I'm excited to do a talk with you at, where are we doing it? Politics and Prose. Politics and Prose. Yes. On November 26th. It's going to be great. Oh, 27th, Monday. Go there on 26th and buy the book. I'm so excited that I don't know the name of where we're doing it or the date we're doing it.

Doesn't matter. It's fine. It shows up in your calendar. And then you go. That's all there is. I'll be there. I'll be ready to rock. The book is fantastic.

Congratulations on it, Ryan. It's always great to see you. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time. Have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multibillion-dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission.

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Trump baggage and all has an edge over Biden. Great to have you, James. Thank you. Thanks for having me. Yeah, of course. So talk to us a little bit about how you selected these people and what the overall vibe was when you talked to them. Yep. So this wasn't just me roaming around Georgia, talking to people in bars or coffee shops. So we actually texted by SMS 5,000 people in two counties of Baldwin and Washington counties. These are places that voted for Biden in 2020 in Georgia, but Brian Kemp, the Republican, in 2022. Interesting. So they're key to this.

So we texted people and then we got them to fill out a survey. And if they matched out what we were looking for, which are people who disapproved of both Trump and Biden, and are now undecided or a bit on the fence about how they might vote next time, then we selected them. So we spoke to about a dozen people.

Is this kind of suburban, exurban? Yeah, so it's interesting. So it's about 90 minutes drive southeast out of Atlanta. And Baldwin County has Milledgeville in the middle. It actually used to be the old capital of the Confederacy in Georgia, the Confederate Georgia for a while. It's a university town, but it feels like a suburb despite being in the middle of rural Georgia. So that's an interesting dynamic. And then down the road in Washington County,

a lot more rural, not many towns or conurbations at all. It's interesting because there's nothing that makes these counties particularly more volatile in terms of voters' minds. You know, these people aren't more swingy in terms of their votes. It's because they're quite divided. So they're about 50-50 black and white

in terms of ethnic mix. And there's also a mix on education and other political views as well. So it sounds actually almost like what you're finding confirms what the New York Times Siena poll found recently, especially among perhaps black voters, that people who are undecided, Biden might be losing support among them. Tell us a little bit about what some of those fault lines are with the double disapprovers that may have them swinging towards Trump when in 2020 they swung towards Biden. Yeah, absolutely. So I think that's the big dynamic happening in Georgia. Non-white voters are going off of Biden. I spoke

to a man called Gabriel, a mixed race man who lives in Tinnell in Georgia. It's this little railway town, you know, literally at the end of the line. It's right on Sherman's March to the Sea, you know, sort of tearing up,, tearing up railway lines, etc. He's still very alive to lots of racial tensions today. And Gabriel, he spoke to me and he sat me down in a coffee shop and he said, African-Americans are waking up. They're moving away from Biden and the Democrats and they're becoming more open to Trump. And his main reason was that they were sort of recoiling to some of the more left-wing parts of the Democrat agenda. He spoke about

transgender issues. He spoke about what he saw as the political persecution of Trump. He also spoke about seeming that Democrats were swapping African-American voters for white women, is how he described it. So he got this feeling that there was a gap between them. And that was echoed a lot across my journey through these swing counties. And then people who were in the state who were more pro-Democrat and African-American, there wasn't that enthusiasm there. There's almost this sort of irony, really, in that people feel more relaxed by politics over the last few years.

There's less drama compared to the Trump years. One woman I spoke to even said she went on to World Buterin because of the Trump presidency. She was so stressed out every day. They say that they're not like that anymore. And actually, that's had a sort of ironic effect because it meant that they're actually more disengaged now. And people spoke to me about how black people in Georgia didn't come out for Stacey Abrams even in 2022. And they doubt whether they'll come out for Biden again. So I think that's a huge dynamic happening here with the non-white vote. Tell me about this gentleman, Nicholas, who voted for Biden in 2020 and says that if Trump is the nominee, he's going to go Biden again. But if Republicans pick DeSantis or potentially someone else, then he's going to vote Republican.

Yeah. So his big problem with Trump was January 6th and the Capitol, you know, the sort of events around the Capitol on that day. That had, in his in his view, made Trump sort of disqualified for the presidency. But he's still a Republican. He still sort of, you know, wants Republican and conservative ideas in government. So he really likes DeSantis, for example. And this was a thing that we heard again and again and again, actually. People sort of saying, you know, that they really didn't want one of Biden or Trump. And a strong sense that if there was another alternative to them, then Biden or Trump would lose very badly. And I think we saw that in the NBC poll yesterday.

You know, a generic Democrat beats Trump, a generic Republican beats Biden. So Nicholas was one of those examples of quite a clued up, he was a college graduate, he was in Milledgeville, quite a clued up person on politics. But for him, Trump was not a viable option. He wasn't keen on Biden. He's going to vote for Biden, but he wasn't keen on him. He spoke about how Biden could have reached across the aisle to voters after 2020. And that's what he expected. He spoke about Biden saying he was going to be a president for all America rather than just Democrats. And he felt that Biden hadn't done that, but he was going to hold his nose and vote for him anyway. This is looking like a very much a hold your nose election. Everybody sort of had one man, Frank, who was an independent. He sort of sat almost with his head

in his hands. He couldn't work out who to vote for. So it's a lot of, it's not, it's not a happy election for sure. Did any of these double disapprovers who are not excited about this election, did any of them mention, maybe I'll vote third party or I'm giving a third party candidate a look? Yeah. So Frank, the man I just mentioned, he was sort of in a dictionary definition of an independent. He had sort of big sage beard. He was sat back on his sofa and he was sort of, you know, he'd voted for Ross Perot in the 90s, he'd voted for write-ins since. He voted for Trump in 2020, but he didn't want to repeat it, again, because of concerns about Trump's temperament.

He spoke about a write-in candidate or third party. I said to him, oh, have you heard about RFK's union? He said, oh, yeah, maybe him. But he didn't come up with him unprompted. A few other people did mention RFKprompted. A few other people did mention RFK Jr. A few other people spoke about looking elsewhere. However, and I think this is because Georgia is such a swing state now. I mean, it went to Biden for the first time when Democrats since 1992 under Bill Clinton in the last election. People are really aware that it's a tight margin.

And lots of people said to me, even when they were sort of talking through about, oh, maybe I could be tempted by a third party, they corrected themselves and said, it would be a wasted vote. And that was a really, really strong motivator for these guys. Interesting. One thing that has stood out for me as you started doing focus groups on breaking points side was asking where people, what their news diets look like and where they're getting their information. And that strikes me as perhaps one of the most interesting distinctions between 2016, 2020, and potentially 2024, when you have the double disapprovers saying things, for instance, like, I think it was the man Gabriel you mentioned, who felt as though Democrats were swapping white

women for black voters. That is not something you hear in the establishment media, the legacy media at all. And I'm really curious what your sense is as you're talking to double disapprovers and maybe as you're talking to people in general, how media diets have changed just maybe even since the pandemic, just since 2020. I think that's one thing maybe people, like especially Democrats, the Democratic establishment might not fully be banking on is that there's information, there are narratives, there are arguments that are getting to voters in a more powerful way than perhaps before. Yeah, 100%. I mean, someone spoke to me there and said, I can't trust anything. They said that they'd go online and they'd Google something even and try and find out a story. And they think,

oh, this looks like a good news story. And they click on it and it would just be either an agenda or clickbait. And people feel like there's this story, and they click on it and it would just be either an agenda or clickbait. And people feel like there's this real, real loss of trust that people feel now to the point where they almost don't feel they can trust anything. It's turning some people off. So I think that is a huge factor. The usual sources of media that we've perhaps banked on, the world of candidates writing op-eds or candidates getting on an important cable news

station, those days really, really seemed over for these double disapprovers and for voters as a whole. It's this sort of free orbit almost of media now that people can sort of select and go for. And they're looking for those trustworthy, straight down the line sources, but they can't always feel they can find them. So I think that's an absolutely huge factor. It means that viral clips become more important. It means that sort of how people sort of feel about the candidates become more important directly. I think it's also an opportunity for politicians. They're able to speak more directly to the electorate than they ever have been. That obviously brings dangers if you're, you know, if you're Biden and you potentially fall

over. It also brings opportunities if you're Trump and you can get your message directly to them. James, what the Democrats are really banking on is two things. Number one, you brought up Trump, January 6th, threat to democracy, like basically this guy and his party are just too extremist, too unhinged. The other one which ties into that argument is abortion. And we have seen, even though frankly I was skeptical that this would be sufficient, we've seen now in midterms, we saw in the 2023, you know, the off-term elections that we just had, that has been very compelling for voters. And the pro-choice position has won in every single ballot initiative that it's been put on. It seems to be very motivating for a Democratic base and a lot of independents too, who may otherwise have been

kind of thrown up their hands, stayed home, not been too excited about this election. Did abortion come up with these voters at all? Are you seeing that in your conversations, that this is a really super hot issue that is motivating people to come out and express their choices at the polls? So I didn't see too much of it in Georgia amongst these double disapprovers. And I think one of the reasons for that is not necessarily because their views on it differ, but because the presidential race is a different range of issues. And I think that's the caveat I make about reading too much into 2022 or the 2023 elections, is that they happened off cycle and the choice of who's in the White House

wasn't on the ballot. And I think that changes the issues agenda. That's not to say it won't be important. So, for example, Arizona might have abortion on the ballot next year. That's not to say it won't be important. So, for example, you know, Arizona might have abortion on the ballot next year. That's probably going to have a bit of an impact in getting Democrat voters out. So I think it does have a potential turnout impact. But I think what I'm hearing and what I'm seeing both in polling and in focus groups is that when it comes to the choice between Biden and Trump or whoever it might be, it's the positives and negatives of those individuals that are weighing more heavily than abortion. So I'm not sitting here and saying it's not important, but I do think it becomes a slightly lower tier issue when we get into a presidential election. One thing I'm hearing from all of this

is that the people of Georgia are not clamoring for Dean Phillips. They're not on the Phillips train, right? Not yet, Emily. It's still early. Were they asking, what about Joe Manchin? Please tell me, Joe Manchin is going to get into the race. I mean, there was no Joe Manchin train. There was no Dean Phillips train. There was, well, I mean, there weren't many trains, to be honest. They didn't want to get on the Trump or the Biden train either. It's interesting, even despite the more disengaged Democrats, I had a fascinating interview with a man called Joseph. He's a Nighthawks veteran and he helps run the Veterans Hospital now in Milledgeville. And he had this big army shirt on and he sort of, you've got to remember,

these things are very exciting for me as a Brit. We don't have people wearing big army shirts in the UK. And he sort of sat back and he had a picture actually of Clinton and Obama on his wall. And he said, he pointed at them and he said, Biden's not like them. He's not a firecracker. I'm not going to put a bumper sticker on for Biden. Despite all of that, he still said there shouldn't be a primary challenge to Biden because he felt that that would divide Democrats even more. That is interesting. Fear of Trump. It really, really does dictate a lot of our politics right now. James, thank you so much. Always so insightful to just hear directly from

voters the way they are viewing this election that not a lot of people are super excited about. So great to see you. Thank you so much. We know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you

Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated.

I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts.

Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders.

I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still to even try. She was still somebody's mother.

She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never got any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and badder than ever.

I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. With guests like Corinne Stephens. I've never seen so many women protect predatory men.

And then me too happened. And then everybody else wanted to get pissed off because the white said it was okay. Problem. My oldest daughter, her first day in ninth grade, and I called to ask how I was doing. She was like, oh dad, all they was doing was talking about your thing in class. I ruined my baby's first day of high school. And slumflower. What turns me on is when a man sends me money.

Like, I feel the moisture between my legs when a man sends me money. I'm like, oh, my God, it's go time. You actually sent it? Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app. Apple Podcasts. Or wherever you go to find your podcasts. Alright, I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor-in-chief of the Real News Network and host of the podcast Working People.

And this is the art of class war on Breaking Points. With each passing day, more Israeli bombs are falling on Gaza. More bodies are being blown apart and buried under the rubble. Over a million Palestinians have been displaced from their homes. The world has borne witness to a genocidal military campaign to clear out Gaza once and for all. And every day, every hour, it feels like the chance to stop one of humanity's most inhumane crimes is slipping through our fingers. And the powers that be have shown no interest whatsoever in listening to the thundering calls for a ceasefire that are coming from governments and mass demonstrations around the world, particularly the Biden administration here in the United States,

the increasingly fascistic Netanyahu government in Israel, and the arms manufacturers and war profiteers who are raking in billions from manufacturing mass death. This is prompting activists and people of conscience around the world to take direct action themselves to try to disrupt the war machine. And that includes working people and trade unions. In Australia, for instance, direct actions and protests have exploded across the country. As Mustafa Rashwani recently reported for The Guardian, quote, across the country, protests continued to be held in major cities. They include a daily sit-in in front of the Victorian parliament, weekly protests at the Sydney office of the prime minister, Anthony Albanese, and prayer vigils at various locations. Protests are being held against Israeli shipping company

Zim at Port Botany in Sydney and at the port of Melbourne, where there is an ongoing presence. Patty Gibson, an organizer at Trade Unionist for Palestine, said workers were keeping an eye out for future Zim arrivals in order to facilitate snap protests. Quote, our intention is to disrupt the businesses and we're calling for a boycott of Zim shipping, Gibson said. End quote. Now, the group Trade Unionist for Palestine made headlines early November when they took action at the port of Melbourne, blocking entry roads, preventing trucks from accessing the area where the Israeli shipping line operates. Peace by now! Peace by now! Peace by now! Peace by now! Peace by now! Peace by now! Peace by now! Hundreds also participated in a direct action to prevent an Israeli cargo ship from docking at Sydney's Port Botany on November 11th, and that included many members of trade unionists

for Palestine. So to talk about all of this and more, I got to speak with April and Seb, two members of trade unionists for Palestine who have been there on the ground in Australia, taking action with their fellow unionists to disrupt the war machine, to force a ceasefire, and to end the violence of Israel's 75-year occupation of Palestine. Here's our conversation, which we recorded late at night on Friday, November 17th, from the Real News Network studio in Baltimore, although it was Saturday morning in Melbourne for them. All right, well, April, Seb, thank you both so much for joining us today on Breaking Points. Hello from across the world. Good morning.

I was wondering if you could start by just introducing yourselves to the Breaking Points viewers and listeners real quick. Yeah, I'm Seb. I am an earliest educator, so I work in like a kindergarten setting. Yeah. My name is April. I'm an organizer with United Workers Union, which is a large blue collar union here in Australia of about 150,000 members. I organized in early childhood with members like Seb. I also work in the kind of background strike and event logistics. So yeah, I've been doing that for seven years. And you were both members of trade unionists for Palestine over in Australia,

correct? Yes, that's correct. It's a pretty good you know it's like a nice rank and file organization that popped up pretty organically all right cool so i want to hear all about that i just gave a little bit of an intro uh when we introduced the segment earlier but I guess like before we start talking about how Trade Unions for Palestine itself came to be and the actions that y'all have been taking over there in Australia,

I wanted to kind of take a quick step back, kind of like we did in the previous Art of Class War segment that we did with another fellow worker, a healthcare worker here in the United States who was also taking action for Palestine. So you both, you know, and other members of Trade Unionists for Palestine, the rank and file group that you refer that we were just talking about over in Australia. I mean, you're all working people just like the rest of us. So I wanted to start there. Like, tell us

more about who you are, what you do, what working life is like for you and workers like yourself in Australia these days. And then tell us about how you came to be, you know, an active fighter in the movement to stop Israel's occupation of Palestine and its genocidal destruction of Gaza. Like, walk me through how those two parts of your lives have converged in this moment. Yeah, so working as an early years educator, that's basically working with children, educating them, helping them get the best sort of setup for their life.

Been working in that sector for five years now and and you know working in a sector like that you you interact with a lot of children and families from uh very diverse backgrounds and the vast majority of them particularly where i work uh you know people who either are or directly related to people from Palestine. They have some connection to the people and the suffering going on there. And just sort of working in that sector, you can very easily rationalize that this is something that's really important to stand by. In regards to what it's like to live in Australia, it's, you know, for working class people, it's quite difficult. The cost of living is through the roof. And, you know, we've got, because we've got a monopoly in our sort of food provider industry,

which is colloquially referred to as Colesworth, we, you know, there's a lot of price gouging in regards to just basic necessities. So I think there is, you know, this sort of convergence for a lot of working class people with frustration of their own living conditions and then seeing on the other side, like, the most violent way that that plays out. And I think they have developed quite a lot of international solidarity with the suffering that's going on in Palestine.

So just to, I suppose, echo what Seb was saying, The sector that I organize in and Seb works in very hard, he's a very inspirational leader and a very inspirational educator for children, has been doing it for many years. It's a sector that leans very heavily on visa workers, on primarily women who are on their student visa. It's a sector that kind of burns through workers and pays them very, very low rates. Essentially, the thing that kind of strikes me as an organiser when I go out to speak to educators like Seban at their sites is these are incredibly skilled and important workers who have been through an education process to become the professional educator that they are.

But they're being paid what we call in Australia award rates. And these are rates that are basically the bare minimum. There's no agreement there. The bare minimum that they can be paid. And this is the majority of the sector. This is the for-profit sector, which kind of the bottom line is about how much money they can make. So you see when you have these conversations with educators that they are really, really feeling it. We as organisers are experiencing it through them. The cost of living crisis, the fact that they are working all hours, they're working overtime, they're not really getting paid

properly for that overtime sometimes. And this kind of cumulative impact leads to them not being able to do things like go for holidays. And creates this kind of two-tier labor system within the sector which is reflected elsewhere in Australia and there's this kind of this kind of false idea that Australia is this lucky country but unfortunately Australia is actually being built on a colonialism which of course you know relates to what we're discussing today, but also the exploitation in a very real way of migrant workers. And what's really inspiring, and one of the reasons why I'm so involved in what we're doing, taking action for Palestine,

is these educators are actually relating to this struggle and they're turning out. We have more educators coming to our rallies every week, week on week, because people are becoming aware that this is a class thing and this does not have boundaries. They relate to what they see. They relate to seeing children. They relate to seeing women.

And they think, my God, you know, there are educators in that country that are trying to do the job that we're doing under unimaginable pressures. So that's the context in terms of Australia. I've worked in this space for about 15 years. My background is policy in the UK. I previously worked for a group called Labour Friends of Palestine in the Middle East, which is a advocacy group within the Westminster kind of bubble, for want of a better word, that was for many, many years trying to build a progressive case for statehood, for the lifting of the blockade, separation policy. And you know,

that feels like many years ago now with where we are as a party. But that's how I came to it originally. And here, the work that we're doing as a union just does dovetail so much with that struggle. Right. I mean, you know, again, from one settler colony to another, you know, I find a lot relatable in that. And I feel like I'm seeing a lot of that, or at least some of it here in the United States, even if it's not translating to, say, mass action. Our labor movement is certainly lagging behind the rest of the world or other parts of the world that are standing up with courage against the genocide that we are watching unfold. I'm sad to say that a lot of labor unions here in the United States have not done so,

but many rank and file workers have, many local unions have, many groups formed by rank and file workers across sectors have, and that is very heartening. But I remember, you know, I asked the question the way that I did, because I want to, you know, always emphasize for people that corporate media, as it always does, is going to try to if it's going to acknowledge the the actions being taken by people around the world to try to end this madness in Gaza and end this madness over there that Israel is wiping Palestine off the face of the earth. People of conscience who just want to stand up and do something, whatever they can to stop this horror. The mainstream media, if it covers that at all, will do what they always do when we talk about protests. We talk about them as like, as if the people there just sort of appear from nowhere, out of some Antifa basement, or that they're all just professional activists or agitators. And I think what we're seeing right now is, no, these are just regular people.

I was down in Washington, D.C. two weeks ago at the largest pro-Palestine margin in U.S. history. I was interviewing people for the Real News Network. Folks watching can go check it out. They're just people like you and me. Yeah, there were activists there, but there were over 100,000 people there, right? You just got to you can't fill that much space in Washington, D.C. without just a lot of regular people like you and me. And so that's why I asked the first question that way. And I want to kind of piggyback onto that and focus in on trade unions for Palestine specifically and the work that y'all have been doing there, the actions y'all have been

taking, right? You know, I first learned about y'all when I saw a tweet from my colleague over in the United Kingdom, the great Taj Ali, showing, you know, y'all out there in Melbourne, like shutting down a port and stopping, you know, the unloading of a shipment headed to Israel. So like, you know, that was really wild to see. I wanted to ask if you all could just take us there, like, tell us how this group came together, what y'all have been doing, how you have been involved in it. And, and, and yeah, like what has been happening since that, you know, action that, that y'all took early in November. Yeah. So trade unionists for Palestine, like I said earlier, it was very organically formed. It wasn't sort of like an on high authority was like, here we go.

Here's trade unionists for Palestine. It was born from a lot of unions sort of coming together and going, we need to take a stand. Like this is something that is just simply not acceptable. We can't just, you you know sit idly by um the action that happened at the port was super cool um to really oversimplify it but what um what happened was there was um a ship that was headed for botany bay in sydney um but it had to go through Port Melbourne first. Like, it had to go by it.

So we organised just this rally out the front where the police basically came out in force to say, you know, basically tell us to sod off. Like, it was pretty, like, high security levels, very aggressive police presence. And we sort of huddled around this spot where, you know, we could sort of, you know, make a good, like, area of organizing. And we were listening to speeches and discussing you know what else we could do and I can't remember which company it was but one of the Israeli trucks came through and people were just so frustrated all of all of the workers there were so frustrated just seeing all of these trucks come through.

And eventually we just kind of had enough. And we very spontaneously just went onto the road to stop it, to stop that truck going in, to be able to be sent off and help Israel profit on the genocide of Palestinians. So we sat there until we could send it back. We did not let it go through. It was a very powerful moment. And I think for a lot of people too, it showed them that they actually do have this power. Like it's not something that is given to us.

Like we have it already. We just need to exercise it and just to further echo um again what what seb said the the actual grouping itself came from a uh an open letter that unionist rank and file unionists started to sign so it was i think two members two lone members of a union called asu who were so frustrated at the lack of leadership from our own union executives that they started this open letter that got passed around. And very organically, all these different unions. And the next thing you know, every single rank and file unionist is um is signing it and that's members and also organizers so there was this kind of like sudden kind of coalition being formed that brought together all of the industrial knowledge of the different types of union in the different sectors that they cover in the different

industries um and what we found was that unions were actually doing this on their own as well so so workers in union were already within their own separate unions uh having conversations and thinking about pressure points where we could turn up and use our our bodies to occupy space and and go to rallies and banner painting sessions has become a really big thing because it also brings in um members who might not be ready to come out to an action but they're able to engage with the issue around something that is quite accessible. And we can sit around painting and have conversations around the history and why they need to be there as unionists. The actual action was organized

within the trade unionists for Palestine group, and crucial, crucially brought in the community because one of the things that we need to make sure it doesn't happen here is that unionists are organizing an isolation of the communities that are actually affected. So we speak to APAN who are the Australian Palestinian Advocacy Network, one of the biggest groups here that advocate for Palestinian rights. Other kind of like rank and file groups within Melbourne to build a coalition and to start thinking about how we can do this in a sustainable way. The Zim truck that came kind of turned up out of the blue, really. We weren't sure that trucks were even going to come uh but he turned up and there was this wonderful moment where we're all I think we're all listening to a speaker at the rally that had been organized and everyone's head

just kind of turned and we see this truck coming towards us and then just this rush of human beings running into the middle of the road and then like you know banners come out um everyone ends up sitting down and and we stay sitting and we're chanting and it's uh the chances uh um up up with liberation down down with occupation and it goes on and on and on for about you know 20 minutes and then this um this uncle gets up to the front and tells us about his family who have in the last week died and shows pictures to the crowd of his family who have died. And as far as I know, this man is still there now in a tent by the side of that road. So I think what's happening is there is a space being formed for grief, and that grief is making people show up. And I think that even if you are not a Palestinian person, when you're close to that grief, you understand why it's so necessary. Yeah, I think that's really beautifully

and powerfully put by both of you. And I just wanted to quickly sort of ask about that because I don't have too much time and I got one more question I want to get to. But could you just say a little more about that space? Like, what does the scene look like over there in Australia?

Like I said, like we are seeing a tremendous amount of action happening here in the United States. It's happening in different pockets. It's happening in train stations. It's happening with, you know, people demonstrating in front of Elbit Systems headquarters and manufacturing facilities. These are the sites where groups like Palestine Action are stopping, you know, like production of weapons that are going to Israel. Also, you know, people are pressing their elected officials. Right. There's a real battle going on between the narratives. You know, people are

seeing like just one totally lopsided account on certain corporate media channels and they're flooding to channels like this to see what else is is out there. And they're realizing that they've been lied to for so long. And so there's a real mix of stuff happening here because all of that's happening amidst, you know, spikes and hate crimes, anti-Semitic, you know, like it's crimes against Muslims and Arabs. And like there's a real high kind of tense moment in the country. There's also a lot of like McCarthyite repression coming on college campuses. People are losing their jobs, speaking up for Palestine, yada, yada, yada. We'll get to that in a second. I wanted to ask if you could just sort of give us again a little bit of a snapshot

of what else is happening there. Like, do you feel that you're alone in this over in Australia, or is it the opposite? Are there more actions that y'all are taking part of more groups that you're seeing coming to the fore and speaking up about this? You know, what is the response from the powers that be like Parliament and Anthony Albanese? Like, I think I call them Albanese in the introduction, but like what like what's going on over there, I guess, for people living over here in North America? Yeah, well, the one sort of, I guess, super awesome thing is that the community movement, the rank and file movement is just growing and growing and growing. I don't remember the exact number of the last march through the city,

but it was over, I think it was over 200,000 from memory. It was huge. And, you know, we've got these mass movements of people who are just saying, no, like, this is ridiculous. On the flip side, we've got elected officials coming out and, you know, some are just blatantly saying that, you know, Israel's in the right, while others are being a bit more sort of, you know, vague with how they reach the same conclusion. And people are really getting frustrated with that. The community is getting annoyed and is starting to show that in a very, you know know open way um they like a lot of people have you know started to connect that

what happened in australia and is still happening this act of you know colonization in australia has is now being played out for them in a very visible way over in historic Palestine. And I think that's really causing people to kind of, you know, raise their, you know, consciousness to this situation, to want to understand why these things are happening and how else we can fight them. And it's been super inspiring to see more and more people who would traditionally not want to do any organizing come out and be trying to start mass movements. And going back to the struggle to counteract, you know, partial representation of the truth, fake news, propaganda, I've never seen such propaganda in my life. It's almost constant. You know, you feel like you're being gaslit because you see the thing with your

eyes, your own eyes. It's verified by an expert in the area. And then you're told that you don't see it. And it's it's maddening. And it makes it makes you feel very frustrated, which on the flip side really encourages you to turn out. That's that frustration of not being heard, not being seen that turns people out. One of the things that we are doing as a union, as our union, United Workers Union, is we are actually actively going to our sites

with information, with flyers, with ways that people can become involved and we're having what we call toolbox meetings where the organizer will go and have conversations with leaders at that site about the history and about the part that unions have played historically around things like apartheid in raising up the voices of people who aren't represented in news, who aren't generally listened to and who are really homogenized and othered. So it's, I would say, incumbent on us as union leaders, people like me and Seb, to continue to have conversations to actually break through, because it's always much more powerful having that conversation with a human being in front of you who you trust and who you know than just

sitting and listening to the propaganda that's fed to you and that is I think for any union organizer listening to this in Canada or in America that is such an important thing for us to do right now because because union organizing isn't just about your site and it's not just about your industry. It's about the broader social good in the world and being part of that. Oh, yeah. Well, and like you always say, I mean, I think there is it's exciting to hear what you just said, you know, because it means that the future is not yet written. Right. I think we are us on one side of this issue, that we were always fed just one side of it. And we ourselves are living in, as I said, also the United States, a successful settler colony that was founded upon the dispossession of the land and the genociding of the people who lived here. And so I think that that is what the role that Israel always played for a lot of Americans,

is it was like this symbol upon which we could project our own lingering colonial guilt and have it washed clean through a settler colony that seemed to be the most sympathetic version you could have of that project of, you know, like people like like, again, the story we were told and the and the story that really means a lot to a lot of people who believed in in that that, you know, there was no one there. Right. Our media, our education made us not ask those sorts of questions that people are now asking themselves. And I think it's really hitting people really hard. But we need to be steadfast and learn and understand as much of this as we can. But at the bare minimum, all you need to understand is that this is wrong. This shouldn't happen. This shouldn't happen. This can't happen. We cannot let this happen.

We cannot let our world go on if this becomes permissible over and over again. And we do nothing to stop it. You can do something to stop it. People like Seb and April are doing stuff like that. Your fellow workers are doing stuff like that. Whatever it is, you can do something. And that is always the message, as you all both mentioned, that that that is endemic to the labor movement. Right. It's baked into the cake of the labor

movement is that we are stronger together and we are fighting for a better life for all working people who deserve better than this. So I wanted to end on that note really quickly because we have gone long and I do have to let you all go. But as people see these connections, as the blinders come off, as they allow themselves to feel as much sympathy for dying Palestinian children, as dying Israeli children, as they are dealing with that all at once and want to know what they can do. But they're worried about, again, as I described, the McCarthyite sort of fog on that is settled on the country, the pressures that are doxing people outside of their college campuses for going to a

demonstration, even if they're not speaking at it, you know, people getting fired from their jobs, people becoming pariahs within their own families. What would your message be to your fellow workers in North America and beyond about why you have, you know, taken that step to get involved and why you think it's important that they do? My message would be pretty, would be pretty short and sweet. I will explain it a little bit, though. Keep fighting, get united, get organized, and stay educated. Like, we are stronger together. And people don't like people who fight for good because it's easier to stay on the status quo because that's not hard to do.

It's hard to fight for what's right. So organize, get united, figure out how you can create a movement or a community that will support you and keep yourself educated on what's going on. So you know how to combat anyone who tries to feed you disinformation. I would say that this is actually a moment that we really need to rise to as a global movement of workers. And one of the things that I think really needs to be said right now is if any of your viewers watching this now are not in a union, join your union. Find out who your union is, go online, find it, join it and organize, right? Because trade unions are one of the few really good resilient structures for engaging working people and channeling all of our energy towards taking action for what's right. And if you're in your union already, start to have conversations around what you as members are comfortable doing. Speak to your delegates, speak to your rep, find out what's happening at your community level.

Turn out, use Signal, right, because Signal is relatively safe to talk about actions that you can be part of. Because what we're talking about here, the need to join a union is it's not just about protecting yourself now, it's not just about having a community around you that will protect you, but it's about building a country where nobody is allowed to dock somebody, nobody is allowed to fire somebody, because of their viewpoint, that you're strong enough as a union workforce to prevent that from happening. Because in a democracy, nobody should be shut down for standing up for peace. That is April and Seb, two members of Trade Unionists for Palestine, a rank and file group

over in Australia. April, Seb, thank you both so much for joining us today on Breaking Points. I really, really appreciate it. Thank you. Thanks, Matt. so much for joining us today on breaking points i really really appreciate it thank you thanks thank you thank you for watching this segment with breaking points and be sure to subscribe to my news outlet the real news network with links in the show description see you soon for the next edition of the art of class war take care of yourselves Take care of each other. Solidarity forever. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

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This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st, and episodes four, five, and six on June 4th. Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing.

No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there.

Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions

that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen.

What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide. And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Casters. on consulting. Is consulting a legit business or is it just BS? It's legit. I interned there this summer and it was very legit. A few weeks ago, John Oliver on his HBO show Last Week Tonight engaged in an epic takedown

of McKinsey and the consulting industry, where secretive companies like McKinsey charge exorbitant fees to their clients, usually Fortune 500 companies, for quote-unquote innovative advice. And Oliver's segment has garnered over 6 million views on YouTube so far. McKinsey's advice can be expensive but obvious, its predictions can be deeply flawed, and it's arguably helped supercharge economic inequality in this country, all of which is pretty striking. Coming from a company whose leader you've already seen sum up its fundamental mission like this. Our purpose is to create positive, enduring change in the world. Yeah, but is it, though?

Good question. So I thought it might be interesting to hear from some potential aspiring future McKinsey consultants. We are at New York University's Stern School of Business, my alma mater, and we're hopefully going to talk to some students about McKinsey, which approximately 30% of the student population wants to work at. That is true. In fact, I may have even underestimated that a little bit because according to NYU's latest MBA employment report, almost 40% of the graduating class went to work for a consulting firm with an average starting salary of nearly $170,000 per year,

along with a 30 K signing bonus. What do you think about consulting? Is it BS or do they actually add value to businesses? I think the correct answer for me would be for my future. I think, yeah, it provides real value. Yeah, no, I mean, I've also had like interviews and I've been a little bit on the inside

and know a lot of people that, you know, have worked in these firms. So they probably are adding value to businesses. I mean, when you go to McKinsey with a business issue that you're looking to address, they're more than, they're going to be likely to solve it in some capacity, but there's a chance that they're not accounting for like what people

feel on the inside. How good does a business really need to be? I mean, if they're not afloat, but doing well and creating, you know, revenue and profits for their stakeholders, what's the, does it, do you need to go to the next level to, and then have to, you know, cut a bunch of employees? It'd be nicer if someone from McKinsey works on the inside of a company and actually put skin in the game. They do provide some consultation advice that does seem like common sense, but I think there's a lot more that goes into it.

And based off the casing and all the consulting stuff that I've been doing, there's a lot that goes into it, a lot more than people think. So I think that's important to keep in mind. John Oliver, he also highlighted how McKinsey has spearheaded the extreme rise in executive compensation that we've seen in the last 60 years. So there is one area where McKinsey has historically advised the exact opposite of cost cutting, and that is executive pay. Starting in 1950, a consultant of theirs named Arch Patton started advising corporate leaders that they were underpaid,

writing books like Men, Money, and Motivation, Executive Compensation as an instrument of leadership. His advice was so wildly popular that for a time, Patton personally accounted for almost 10% of the firm's billings and later came to be seen as a major contributor to skyrocketing executive pay. What do you think about CEO pay? Is it too much, too little, just the right amount? I wouldn't know. I'm not a CEO. I guess it depends on how much they want, how much they need.

I think it's probably on a per person basis too, because the amount of work that they put in, the amount of hours, those jobs are taxing. The market does decide. No one's going to pay 300 times, 300x a salary for a CEO if the market doesn't demand for it. Yeah, I think they do get paid too much, but a lot of their compensation are tied with their stock performance, right? So if they're getting paid more than, I guess shareholders are also beneficiaries. So yeah, I guess it's good for everyone, except if you're not shareholders for the company, then I guess you're missing out. The fact of the matter is if you work at McKinsey, that's kind of a

springboard into a very great career. There's a lot of well to do people like CEO of Google, Pete Buttigieg, all these guys that come from McKinsey. Are you comfortable, let's say working within an industry that maybe does some unscrupulous things, but it's going to really help your career? Or is it unfair to ask people that to say you need to be morally right all the time? It's very hard to say, right? But I guess as long as it's within the law boundaries. I don't believe that the consulting industry is evil. I think that it is a good springboard if you want to put yourself

and surround yourself by, you know, top minds, people who've been exposed to the highest level of transactions and the highest level of policy and also just be in the kind of reaching distance of real policy makers and real change makers. It's totally legitimate to go to these firms. For me, I'll just follow my heart. Like if I think this is right, then I'm going to do it. If I don't think it's right, it's not comfortable for me, I'll probably pass on it. There's better ways to make money than just going against your morals and make money from that. Are there any red lines you think in terms of, let's say, McKinsey works for the Saudi government, questionable human rights rights or regulatory gray areas such

as consulting for the FDA. At the same time, they're consulting for a pharmaceutical company. That's the market because the size of McKinsey is the size of the market. So in terms of red lines, like it's just more like everyone loves to see transparency and everyone loves to see kind of a value judgment. Personally, I'm not huge on like government, tons of government intervention. So it's just kind of what the market created.

There should be more regulations, but also not everyone's finest guy is a Ponzi scheme runner. So I would say like, there's definitely a lot of bias from outside of Stern. You know, just talk to more Stern people. I think they're nice. They're nice people.

I don't doubt that I'm one of them. But what business school students were willing to share, I think pales in comparison to what they were not willing to share. Hold on, hold on. Wait, wait, one second. We're part of a news organization

called Breaking Points. Are you okay with us using that footage? No, no, no. I keep having my opinion, but I honestly think it is something I would be okay with. I'm sorry. I don't want to be caught on camera. You don't want to be caught on camera. Is that right? Sorry, sorry. You don't want to be caught on camera, is that right?

I'm going to decline, but thank you. Very difficult to get people to speak since they have a lot to lose. You got to think about it. There's a lot of student loans, $200,000 in student loans, and then you have to get a job, you know, or else you can't pay it back. I did my best. But truly, there is no, at the very least, no financial upside in talking to me. So I can't really blame them for prioritizing their self-interest. Truth is, modern corporations only love superficial diversity, what you look like, your sexual orientation, things like that. But

they do not love diversity in thought. And this principle applies before you get the job and while you're on the job. And I think that's why you see so many unscrupulous business practices or personal misconduct go unchallenged. Your company is doing something shady? Tunnel vision. You say nothing. Maybe a co-worker is getting harassed by a boss.

Unless it's really egregious, probably best just look the other way and also say nothing for risk of you also becoming a potential cultural pariah yourself in the eyes of the company look I'm not here to be the morality police and despite some of the the cringe posts that you'll see on LinkedIn some crap like this about helping the environment or whatever the uncomfortable truth is that corporations can't really be anything more than a platform or a vehicle to help you build economic security for you and your family. And unfortunately, as we all know today, that does come with tremendous societal cost. That's it for me this week. Let us know what you think. Also, if you enjoyed the

segment, you can support my work by going over and subscribing to my YouTube channel, 5149 with James Lee. The link will be in the description below. Your support would mean a lot to me. Of course, keep on tuning into Breaking Points, and thank you for your time today. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley

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No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day.

The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother.

She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never got any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there's so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen.

Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment and sports collide. And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Maximilian Alvarez. I'm the editor-in-chief of the Real News Network and host of the podcast Working People. And this is the art of class war on breaking points. six-week strike that, for the first time in the union's history, involved workers at each of the big three automakers going on strike at the same time. United Auto workers at Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis have ratified their new contracts with the companies. As Dan DiMaggio reports at Labor Notes, quote, the stand-up strike began September 15th when 13,000 workers walked

out at three Ford, General Motors, and Stellantis assembly plants. By the end, it grew to 50,000 out of the 146,000 UAW members at the big three. The agreements came after a major escalation, striking each company's most profitable truck plant. Workers approved the deals at GM, Ford, and Stellantis this week. At Ford and Stellantis, two-thirds voted in favor, but at GM, the numbers were close. Just 55% of workers voted yes, reflecting workers' heightened expectations and frustration with years of givebacks. Many higher seniority assembly plant workers at all three companies voted no, saying the raises and retirement gains were not enough.

Still, DiMaggio notes, the new contracts go further than many people thought possible on issues that the companies had insisted were off the table. Now, as far as those contract gains go, as Jamie L. LaRue of Detroit Free Press writes, quote, the UAW represents about 150,000 auto workers at the Detroit Three. In the contracts, which largely mirror each other with a few individual company exceptions, the union won back some of the big provisions lost during the Great Recession, such as cost of living adjustments, or COLA, annual bonuses for retirees, and the elimination of wage tiers. The agreements will provide compensation increases of at least 33% after COLA and compounded wage increases, ranging up to over 160 percent for some of the lowest paid workers over the 4.5 years of the

contract. The union won a three-year wage progression to the top pay rate, down from eight years at all three automakers. At Stellantis, which makes Chrysler, Dodge, Jeep, Ram, and Fiat vehicles, it will reopen an assembly plant in Belvedere, Illinois that it idled in February. The automaker committed to build a $3.2 billion battery plant there, employing more than a thousand union workers. Also, the UAW won commitments at all three companies to bring thousands of electric vehicle and battery jobs under the union's national agreements. Finally, retirees will receive annual bonuses for the first time in 15 years, a $1.25 billion boost in their total benefits. That is a billion dollars more than

the union won for retirees in the last four contracts combined. At all three companies, traditional workers hired, i.e. those on the job before 2007, won a $5 increase to their pension multiplier, the first time getting an increase in over 15 years. Still, many at GM were dissatisfied with that increase and cited that as one of the reasons several GM assembly plants voted no on the agreement. Now, in a Facebook Live message to union members on November 8th, UAW President Sean Fain acknowledged that the union had not won on all fronts, including in the fight for a 32-hour work week and the fight to reinstate defined benefit pensions for workers who were hired after 2007. Quote, what we did win in this contract will

change many lives, Fain said. But we went into this round of negotiations to end tears. One of the biggest and worst tears in our union is the difference between pre-2007 and post-2007 hires, which determines who gets a pension in retiree health care and who doesn't. We didn't win on this issue. The fact is, both of these issues are extremely difficult and expensive to fix, primarily because the big three, being so driven by Wall Street, refuse to have the liability on their books. So already, we're looking at 2028 for this issue, and we're thinking even bigger. Either the big three guarantees retirement security for workers who give their lives to these companies, or an even bigger player does,

the federal government. Look, no contract is perfect. No one wins everything they need and deserve in a single strike or a single union drive. And there is still much, much more to fight for here. But make no mistake, this is a momentous victory and a historic turning point for the UAW, for the auto industry, and for the labor movement writ large. After half a century of backsliding, concessionary bargaining, givebacks to the companies under immense pressures of deindustrialization and offshoring of jobs. After the post-2008 explosion of lower paid tiers and permanent temp positions that turned a once stable career into just another precarious job for so many workers, after being rocked by corruption scandals at the top levels of the union, and after decades of devastating layoffs and plant closures, UAW autoworkers fought valiantly to take back their union, to vote in new leadership, to rebuild faith and a fighting spirit among the rank and file,

to finally go on the offensive and put the bosses on the back heel for once. And they won. They did not win everything, but they won a lot. And the owning class is taking notice. Non-union auto companies like Honda, Hyundai, and Toyota have already announced incoming raises for their employees as a direct result of the UAW gains at the big three. And the UAW has reportedly been flooded by inquiries from workers at non-union plants about unionizing, including workers at Tesla. Now that the strike has finally concluded and the contracts have been ratified, I wanted to take a moment to bring back some of the many UAW workers I've been interviewing before and throughout this historic strike, including here

on Breaking Points. So in this extended Art of Class War segment, I got to sit down once again with Nick Leivick, a General Motors auto worker, a rank-and-file member of UAW Local 31 in Kansas City, and an activist with the caucus Unite All Workers for Democracy. And we also sat down with Marcy Pedraza, an electrician at the Ford Chicago Assembly Plant and a member of UAW Local 551. Here's my conversation with Nick and Marcy, which we recorded right here in the Real News Network studio in Baltimore on Saturday, November 18th. Marcy, Nick, welcome back to Breaking Points. It's so great to see you both. Thank you so much for joining me today, especially after this long, intense fight that y'all have been in. I hate to take you away from your much needed rest, but I really appreciate you being here and it's really great to see you both. Good to be here.

Thanks for having me all right so voting is in the contract is ratified uh it is a new day for the uaw a new day for the labor movement here in the u.s and y'all have been on the front lines fighting the good fight and you Nick, you and I did a segment here together for breaking points before the strike began back in August. Lots happened in the world since then. So I was wondering if we could sort of just take a step back. Let's reflect for a second. Let's refresh everyone's memories about how far we've come in a short amount of time, what the strike was really about, what was significant about it, and what it felt like from your vantage points as rank and file

workers and active members of your union working to organize and uplift your fellow union members, your fellow workers. Take us back. Nick, why don't we start with you and just sort of like for folks who are, you know, maybe forgetting like, you know, like where this all started, what was what it was all about. You know, some of that gets lost in the coverage of the strike as it's going on. Let's start back to, you know, where we were when we all were talking before the strike, because, of course, you, me and marcy and another one of your uaw members did a podcast together before the strike as well so let's talk about let's go from there to here from your eyes what where what was this strike all about and what was it like for you all to to

live and fight through it i really think that this strike was about charting a new way forward for the UAW. We saw a lot of different things from listing the public demands, which were very ambitious, to transparency like we've never seen before with the live streams. I mean, that was the first time I've ever seen my international president get up there and give up weekly updates of where they were. And we had a completely new strike strategy. There was a lot of people talking in the media saying, oh, this isn't going to work. This strategy is too insane. Like, it's not, you guys are demanding too much and what we saw in the the end result is a very militant membership that

stood up rallied around the call rallied around their their membership and we won the most uh large the largest contract in the uaw in the last 20 years i believe dating back to Walter Ruther even. So 1970, this is our largest contract since then. We've seen some record gains. We've reinstated COLA. Temps have a shorter path to full-time. We've rolled in all of the CCA and GMCH plants at my facility. I know the phrasing is different for Ford and Stellantis, but that's huge. And that's what people should really take for this.

Like when you're unionized and when you're aligned in solidarity and you're actually standing up and fighting for this stuff and you have a leadership that's backing the rank and file, and that's actually keeping the rank and file informed and pushing and helping the rank and file push forward, you can win record contracts. And we've seen that now with the Teamsters UPS and the UAW. I agree with everything Nick just said. So, you know, for us, like starting back, going back to our contract campaign, even, you know, just trying to get more information to the membership on the shop floor about what this contract, you know, can possibly mean for us in with this newly elected leadership, right? You know, in the past, this was only my third contract. In the past two, you know, I've known many folks who might not have even voted before because

they just thought it was hopeless or why bother? It's just going to pass anyway. You know, they're jamming these contracts down our throat without any transparency, right? Or updates on bargaining. So we've seen a real shift in getting members, you know, involved and just excited and pumped up to be part of this campaign or even to be asked to join the stand-up strike. I know that every week when there was the live updates and the announcement of a potential plant being struck, people were on the edge of their seats like, is it going to be us or whatever. And many members were kind of disappointed when they found out it wasn't them and that just shows to you know their um you know excitement about this and just wanting to be part of this historic moment the first time that having all big three a plant or someone from all big three on strike at the same time you know and there were you know obviously a lot of uh folks who were um you know naysayers or didn't agree with the strategy

i mean not not just i mean the membership but you know mainstream media or just everybody who wanted to have their put their two cents in right but at end, I think most of us have to agree that it was brilliant. The strategy worked and we would not have seen these gains if, you know, it went another way. Like Nick said, you know, this is the most, the highest wage increases we've seen in the last 22 years combined. That's going to be life-changing for all of us, I think, you know, especially these newer temp workers are going to get even bigger wage increases right, I think, you know, especially these newer temp workers are going to get even bigger wage increases right off the bat, you know, just to be able to say, like, you know, I want to work here and I want to stay here because now I have a fair living wage. I'm

not just going to work a few months or years and then go somewhere else where I can potentially make more money or get better benefits, you know. One of the important things or a few months or years and then go somewhere else where I can potentially make more money or get better benefits. You know, one of the important things or a few of the important things for me was the, but still the just transition to electric vehicles, right? Which, you know, we have won some gains there, but I have said, you know, it's like we have our foot in the door when it comes to those plants, you know, which they said was impossible before, right? That we wouldn't be able to get that right off the bat. So that's great.

And then also, even though I work for Ford now, but I used to work at Belvedere Assembly Plant. they are going to reopen the plant and build new vehicles and a new battery plant nearby and a parts distribution center. That's going to be beneficial to the community of Belvedere. You know, I grew up on the southeast side of Chicago and I seen when the steel mills closed and when they all left and how it just devastated our community. And, you know, when I moved to Belvedere, coming from a big city to a small city, I was kind of like, where am I going in rural Illinois? You know, on one side of the street, you see some Trump posters. And then the other side, you know, there's a Mexican migrant farm worker making chicharron in his backyard. You know, there's a huge Latino community in Belvedere, just a lot of working families and for for if belvedere were to have been shut down you know

that that would have really just been awful for the small town and i'm just glad to see that um it can still be a thriving community yeah no i think i think it's really huge and i want us to to circle back to that in a second, because I mean, for breaking points, viewers and listeners, if you guys remember another UAW member and auto worker that I interviewed on this segment during the strike was Austin Gore, who was striking in Toledo, Ohio, after he had to, you know, leave his family momentarily when Belvedere, the Belvedere plant got shuttered. And, you know, he described like how devastating that was to him, got shuttered. And he described how devastating that was to him, to his family. And this is the situation that so many auto workers have been put in for so many years. And so the fact that the UAW has fought to turn the tide on those plant

closures to have more of a direct say in managerial and business decisions at the company level is huge. I want to like circle back to that in, in the next round of questions, but I wanted to just sort of follow up on, on what you guys were talking about, uh, regarding the strike itself. Um, are there any like particular moments or memories that, that really stand out to you that you want to share with folks? Like Marcy, it could be the moment that you heard your plant was one of the ones called to stand up, right? Or it could be a moment that you all experienced on the picket line itself. I guess looking back now that this intense struggle is, well, the struggle is never over,

right? But this contract fight has concluded and y'all are kind of looking ahead. Are there any sort of moments from the strike itself that you want to share with folks or that, that stick out in your memory? For me, like my membership, we were, we were laid off, um, about three, three working days, uh, after one, so it went down three or four, I can't remember. And I had been trying to, you know, I got two small kids at home and my wife still works. So we were trying to arrange our schedules so we could actually go out to Wentzville, which is about three to four hours away. It's on the other side of the state from where my local's at.

So we loaded up the truck. We took our kids out my kids out there three and uh one so so just to give you guys an idea of what that car car ride was like we get there you know the kids are finally excited to get out of the car and you know everyone at uh wentzville 2250 they're giving high fives they're excited we're there and like it was just really heartwarming for me to to not only be accepted fully on you know another locals picket line but to also have like a a village in a sense you know all all of your brothers and sisters all of your union siblings

are just welcoming you and they're not just welcoming you as a member, they're welcoming your entire family, you know, offering you snacks, you guys need any drinks, you guys, and like, they're the, they're the ones out on strike, you know? Um, so, so it was just really heartwarming. Um, when we, when we finally found the time to go over to Wentzville and how welcoming they all are. And it really gives you the sense of camaraderie and how deep that bond goes, because here are perfectly fine strangers. And all they know is you're from the other side of the state and you're coming to show support and they're doing like whatever they can can offer you from conversations to snacks. I mean, we literally had people bringing up bags of chips to our kids like, hey, you guys want some Cheetos? And my kids are loving it. So it was fantastic.

And I really think that that's probably one of the biggest takeaways I'll take away from this strike is just how deep that union bond is and how much it means to me and I imagine all of us. For me, it was a few things. Obviously, first, you know, I was sitting in my living room watching the live update from Sean Fain on Friday, and I heard Chicago Assembly Plant, and I almost spit out my coffee. I did scream. I think I jumped up. There was nobody in my house but me, and immediately got ready to go to work, basically, at the Union Hall, even though it was my day off, right? But I knew as an involved member in my union, I have to do something.

I have to go, even if it's just making signs or trying to tell people what's going to happen the next few days. Because obviously the first day was very chaotic and we didn't have everything set up yet to sign folks up for strike benefits. So it was just exciting, an exciting moment in time to be there. Another moment just that stands out is we had a big rally at the hall October 7th where labor leaders and elected officials came out. You know, it was huge. It was the most crowded I've seen our hall. Like it was standing room only. People were overflowing on the parking lot and like one of our uh local not my alderman

but an alderman from um pilsen in chicago came out and he's texting me like i can't get inside i'm like sorry it's to capacity you know like um but they were able to watch the rally outside where you know they had great speeches and all that but and and also to see like you know sean fain come out to every picket site and talk to to members and you know just be in involved in in our strike too you know um because we've seen a lot of coverage of of you know everyone going going around at the Michigan plants and all that. So that was really significant for a lot of people just to see that happen, which, you know, I don't think that's happened before. But mainly, too, just the camaraderie and the picket lines, right?

You know, just for me, first time being on strike, but being in Chicago, there's always a strike somewhere, right? Chicago Teachers Union, hotel workers, and, you know, I've supported them. And it was just great to see all of them come out to support us as well. You know, we had so much support from other labor unions, the local community. I mean, tons of small businesses just dropping off food and supplies. And, you know, we made a list so that we remember these places. So we go back and, you know, we support them, especially the ones near the plant, because I live and work near the plant. So some of these businesses are, you know, ones I frequent. And I just want to make sure that they're recognized and supported, because I know they were struggling when, you know, almost 5000 of us walked out. You know, nobody was ordering pizza every day or lunch, you know, but they sure did come out and bring us

free food. So that was amazing to see. And just having conversations on the picket line with, with people I've never met or people that I've said hi to, but never really talked to, you know, it was a great moment to, to bond and share experiences and just, you know, make sure that everyone is, you know, educated and involved and keep this momentum going because who knows, you know, what we're going to do in four and a half years, right? Yeah. And I like, while I was listening to you both talk, I was sort of reflecting on how I would answer that same question, right? As someone over here in Baltimore in the media, who's been talking to y'all throughout this whole saga and, and,

and well before, um, you know, I think that that obviously is my memory from this, uh, um, strike, uh, was, you know, first connecting with Nick, interviewing him for breaking points, then doing a podcast with you guys, Nick, Marcy and Taurus, who was another UAW member. Then having like Marcy on a live stream at the Real News Network with a SAG-AFTRA member who was on strike and hearing y'all talk about how your struggles were more connected than they may appear in, you know, than they may initially appear. And that was just such a beautiful moment of solidarity that I had the privilege of seeing moments like those by talking to workers like yourselves throughout this saga and seeing the solidarity y'all were bringing to other strikes and struggles that were either going on at the time or are still going on as we record this on Saturday, November 18th. You know, that was really significant for me and really beautiful to see. Also, I just got to say, you know, again, as I've mentioned on many interviews up until now, having interviewed so many striking GM workers or laid off GM workers from the 2018 layoffs and the 2019 strike before the era of Sean Fain and this new reform movement within the UAW, voted to have direct democracy in your union uh elections which led the union to elect sean fain right before all of that just talking to workers in 2018 and 2019 and hearing how dissatisfied and

and betrayed they felt by their unions by the by the company um and and just how hopeless things felt to see for us to go from that to seeing Sean Fain wearing an eat the rich shirt, uh, talking to the members in the country about how, uh, some of the EV plants were going to be brought under the master agreement. Like that is a seismic shifts in, in the movement, in in the politics the class politics of this country that you all made happen and so like that's where i want us to to um conclude in terms of like thinking about this strike in terms of the big picture and and the long trajectory of the the uaw the auto industry and the labor movement and where this strike kind of fits into that.

But I guess really quick before we get there, just I just wanted to ask for people watching and listening to this, if you could say a little bit about the the ratification votes, like the the the results of the the strike. Right. And people were hearing, you know, news reports that some locals voted the T.A. down, whether they were in General Motors, Ford, Stellantis. Right. You know, you had three big three automakers, different kind of groups voting on those contracts. Like, I just wanted to ask if you could, A, just sort of clarify for folks watching, like what the results do mean and do not mean like you know like what sort of misconceptions do you think folks have as they're trying to parse the results

of these uh the contracts that resulted from this strike and the votes from the membership on those contracts and and do you feel yourselves from where you sit that that this strike has brought the union closer together or change things within the uaw itself so i'm i'm one of the people like uh i don't i don't really hide what i what i say or do i i voted yes on this contract this was the the first contract i've ever voted yes on i think thought it was uh amazing contract. That being said, my local was within four votes of it being voted up or down. So there's a lot of people that felt like we could have stayed out, we could have won more. There's people that aren't happy with the amount of benefits that we won for

the retirees. We won their first raise since I believe it was 2002 in their pensions. There's some people that wanted a bigger up front like there was just there's some things that people wanted to see they didn't see um but for me it was about like looking at how how life-changing this was going to be as a tier two person i i took a decade to get to top pay and knowing that that's never going to happen again for anybody coming in after me like i I said, in a previous interview, this, this, this strike was about the next generation while doing everything we can for the current inactives. You know, the next people deserve to have a better chance that, that we got. What you're seeing with the results is democracy in action. I wouldn't have it any other way. Dissidence is important and vital to democracy. People have the right to vote now. And that's what you're seeing with the results. But with democracy, majority does rule. And that's what you're seeing play out i think the strike really did bring a lot of people together i mean you saw flying

squadrons especially up in detroit going out to different picket lines um it didn't matter if they're ford stelanus or gm you know there were people out there driving um across the across the country across states um and this was really i mean you said it's there's no other way to say it. It's a seismic shift. And with that, you know, there's going to be, there's going to be a lot of people that aren't necessarily willing to, or aren't ready to trust the new leadership. And, you know, that's, that's to be expected. You know, we're, we're coming off a corruption scandal that, I mean, a lot of people were embarrassed to wear their UAW

shirts in public. A lot of people burned their UAW shirts. I mean, it was that bad. Morale was that low. You don't bounce back from that instantly. I think Sean Fain and the members united in this entire executive board is doing a hell of a good job with the transparency, being open, being honest with the membership. And I think that's where it starts and where we got to go to win some of these major demands back, like getting defined pensions back, getting better raises for retiree, retiree healthcare. We have got to unionize the transplants. So if you are a Toyota worker, if you're a Subaru worker, if you're Honda, if you're Hyundai, if you are an auto worker in the United States of America, you need to be reaching out to the UAW

and you need to be organizing because your management is afraid of you guys having the power to fight back like we did. That's why you're already seeing Honda fight back in internal emails, warning the workers about unionizing. So that's where we got to go next as a union, in my opinion, in my sector. Because keep in mind, the UAW is bigger than just auto workers. Yeah, I mean, who could have predicted all of this? And I think the, you know, the people were asking me this so much, like people that were supporting us, like, I'm surprised it was so close. Like, I thought it would pass across the board. And, you know, I, I kind of assumed for a Ford, at least that it would, it would pass. And, but it would be not a landslide, you know, for many reasons, you know, some folks were still holding out on retirement health care, right, or pensions, like Nick said, you know, work, better work-life balance, which were all things that, you know, we thought we could win. I mean, obviously, you can win everything in one contract, but I attribute that to, you know, our elected,

newly elected leadership getting everybody so fired up that we thought we could win it all. Right. Damn it. Like we're out here. We might as well stay out here until we win it all. So that's just, you know, like exciting. Right. To see that much involvement and, you know, interest in what's going on in our union for the first time in many years, right? So just, you know, getting everyone on board and with our demands and fired up, and hopefully that will continue, you know, in this next organizing drive in the next few years, you know, so that we can keep fighting for these things that we didn't get in this contract, you know, and it definitely changed, you know, many, many workers' attitudes towards just, you know, our whole campaign across the country and getting support from

non-union workers, you know, like Nick said, we got to reach out to all these non-union shops and they've been reaching out to UAW already to join. And that's going to be great and huge if we just, you know, increase our membership, right? Because that's how we fight is with our labor. And I say organize the world, right? Because that's what it's going to take to, you know, defeat the ruling class and to get what we deserve. So, yeah, we got a lot of work ahead of us, you know, but I think it's also important to take a break and take a pause when you need it. You know, it's important to, so that we stay, you know, in this fight, that we have the energy and because it's, you know, it's not a marathon

or, right, it's not a sprint, it it's uh it's not a sprint it's a marathon right i've heard that said before so we got our work cut out for us but it's going to be it's an exciting time for the labor movement and i'm just glad to be part of this this fight oh yeah sister and like you know i think that that's beautifully put right i mean this is this is kind of the message i preach to anyone and everyone who is rolling up their sleeves right now and saying look the world's in a dire state uh it's got to be us who to fix it and and we got to do whatever we can wherever we are um whether we're talking about the destruction of our shared planet the destruction of our uh fellow humans in endless war or the destruction of our society by, you know,

this sort of vampiric rigged economy that is screwing over working people for the benefit of, you know, few rich executives and shareholders, right? We got to be the ones to fight back against this. And it's a life's work. We may not see the culmination of it. We may not get to the promised land ourselves, but like you all said, and like you and your union siblings were fighting for, like we're fighting for the next generation. We're fighting for our kids. Like we're fighting as hard as we can now for the folks who are here now, but we're also committing ourselves to a fight that goes well beyond us and that is going to be, you know, like carried on by the generations that come after. And so we got to dig in deep. You know, it's not going to be an easy, you know, victory. It's not going to come, you know, like in the next year or two. It's a life's work. And I want to sort of end there and sort of take the, the, the,

this historic UAW standup strike again, the first time in the UAW history where y'all struck at each of the big three automakers at the same time, even if you didn't have every worker at those companies go on strike at the same time. Um, you know, like there's just so much kind of historical context that we've given over the course of the past couple months in our different interviews. We can't go through all that now. But just again, I want to really like stress to folks, go back, watch and listen to those interviews. Think about this contract fight, not just in like the kind of recent context of the UAW corruption scandals, the post bankruptcy, the post 2008 shenanigans, although that's really crucial. Right. But also like in the broader sweep of things. Right. In the larger trajectory.

Right. We've talked about the auto industry as a symbol of like deindustrialization in the United States, manufacturing going away, and those sort of good union jobs also going away. Well, the picture is a little more complicated than that because auto manufacturing has not gone away in the United States. What has happened is that the industry has been de-unionized. And the companies that Nick mentioned, companies like Nissan, Hyundai, Honda, Tesla, right? I mean, like these are the companies that are replacing those good union jobs in American auto manufacturing with non-union jobs. And so the fact that the UAW has waged this incredible struggle at the big three automakers and that that struggle is already spooking companies like Toyota to give raises to their workers. And it's scaring the living shit out of Tesla and Elon Musk that an organizing committee is being formed out in California. Like that's the ripple effect of this struggle. But the struggle itself is against this kind of larger shift in the economy that has pushed

workers to work longer for less while, you know, like and have fewer workers doing more work and have like more chances for workers to get trapped in low wage work or lower tier employment with no possibility for advancement, no possibility for retirement, so on and so forth, all while the companies that employ us and their shareholders are raking in record profits. And so the fact that, you know, that's been such a long sort of trajectory that American workers have experienced for decades and that the auto industry and its workers like yourselves have experienced very acutely. But also like this, this is why I want to stress that, like the fact that y'all are

kind of turning back the clock a bit, like, like the fact that you reached back into time and you said to your employers, like, Hey, you, we gave up cost of living adjustments for our pay during the, the, a financial crash that affected the world. When you guys were on life support, when our employers were on the brink of collapse, we opened up our contracts and gave a lot of concessions. And we were promised we would get those concessions back when these companies were profitable again. And of course, that didn't happen. And it was kind of just taken for granted that once you give something up like that in a contract, you're never getting it back. But you guys changed that paradigm. You went back and you got it.

Right. And you mentioned the reopening of the Belvedere plant, again, turning back the clock and saying to the company, to the employer class, to the capitalist class, you do not have sole, sovereign, unchecked right to determine what happens with your business. Workers get a say, too. People get a say, too. Like we get a say in whether or not this plant closes and this community gets destroyed. That is significant. I wanted to just sort of toss that back to you guys and ask, taking in the broad sweep of history, the larger trajectory of the American labor movement and the fight to unrig this rigged economy. What do you want to communicate to folks watching and listening about the significance of this strike and what happens next? Like, where do we go from here? What should people have their eyes on moving forward from this historic struggle?

You know, I think in many ways between the Teamsters and the UAW and a lot of unions before us, too, you're seeing since like 2010, unions are stepping up and they're fighting back and it's getting bigger and bigger every single year. The historical, I mean, you can't, it's almost hard to even put into words what we've accomplished here, especially like if you look at Stellantis, they have the right to strike over investments. And I mean, that's huge. That was seen as a management prerogative, something that they have sole say over. So the fact that we were able to get that

into our contract was huge. And where we go from there to fix this economy is we got to unionize. If you want to organize, don't wait for a union to reach out for you. Start talking to your coworkers. You guys can form that organizing committee, and then you can contact unions and you can say, Hey, we got this organizing committee and we want to unionize. You know, we've already been, we've already got the groundwork and that's what it's going to take. It's going to take the working class of this nation to start organizing themselves, start talking to each other, start talking to their coworkers and not being afraid of all the these anti-union corporations to beat you guys down than have you guys come together and beat management down.

They want that total control over their workplace, and that's what we need to see in this nation is we need to see workers starting to take the initiative, talking to their coworkers, forming those organizing committees, reaching out to unions and organizing because labor isn't this monolithic institution. Labor is workers. You are your union. And that's what I really think is going to propel our labor struggle to the next level and is what this nation desperately needs to fix this rigged economy that we're facing. Yeah, I just wanted to go back to talking a bit about the strike strategy, because, you know, like you were saying, some folks were saying,

oh, we should have all gone on strike, same time, whatever. But, you know, just seeing, I think, for the first time, like these companies, for the first time we had them pitted against each other, right? Trying to scramble for who's going to come out with a better offer so they don't have another plant going on strike. You know, like it seemed like they were running around like chickens with their heads cut off for a minute, you know, and usually that's what they want us to do, right? They want us to take the scraps and fight each other or be against each other, union versus non-union, America versus the world, you know, and that's just, you know, got to stop, right? We need to have solidarity, international solidarity, because that's how these companies work, right? They're

already on a global economy. So we need to think and fight in the same way, you know, and where do we go from here? Wow, that's, that's a big loaded question. And, you know, me as a environmental activist, you know, we're fighting, you know, these corporate toxic polluters, you know, that are contributing to climate change, you know, and that's, that's a workers rights issue, too. You know, we were just at a demonstration against the American Petroleum Institute, you know, a huge lobbying organization that supports big oil. And, you know, what good is a job if we don't have a planet to work on, right? And, you know, we need to keep standing up against the military-industrial complex.

Our tax dollars are going to wars and the genocide of people across the world. And, you know, that's not right. You know, we, we, they can't pay for payoff student debt or universal healthcare, but they have billions of dollars to fund these wars, you know? So just, you know, whatever you're passionate about, get involved, join a union and fight against the 1% and the ruling class. for months saying, hey, can we do another interview for this thing, for this thing? Like, it's just been a real pleasure and honor to be in conversation with you throughout this struggle. Now, please, for the love of God, to you and your fellow union siblings, go get some rest. Thanks, brother. Thank you. Anytime. Thank you for watching this segment with Breaking Points. And be sure to subscribe

to my news outlet, The Real News Network, with links in the description of this video. See you soon for the next edition of The Art of Class War. Take care of yourselves. Take care of each other. Solidarity forever. I think everything that might have dropped in 95 has been labeled the golden years of hip-hop. It's Black Music Month, and we need to talk. It's tapping in. I'm Nyla Simone, breaking down lyrics, amplifying voices,

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This your main man Memphis Bleak right here, host of Rock Solid Podcast. June is Black Music Month, so what better way to celebrate than listening to my exclusive conversation with my bro, Ja Rule. The one thing that can't stop you or take away from you is knowledge.

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