Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 11/9/23 EXCLUSIVE: Vivek SOUNDS OFF On 'SCUM,' Israel, Free Speech

Episode Date: November 9, 2023

Krystal and Saagar are joined by Vivek Ramaswamy to discuss the third GOP debate and his run for president. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/ Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Joining us now is presidential candidate Vivek Ramaswamy, fresh off of his debate appearance in Miami. Vivek, we wanted to get started with something that's been dominating the news cycle. There was a moment there between you and presidential candidate Nikki Haley. You called out her daughter using TikTok despite her criticizing you. There led to a moment where she called you scum. The moderators actually didn't give you a chance to respond. We're going to play that and we're going to give you the chance to respond. Let's take a listen and we'll get your reaction. Well, I wanna laugh at why Nikki Haley didn't

answer your question, which is about looking at families in the eye. In the last debate, she made fun of me for actually joining TikTok while her own daughter was actually using the app for a long time. So you might wanna take care of your family first. Leave my daughter out of your voice. The next generation of Americans are using it. And that's actually the point. You have her supporters propping her up. That's fine. Here's the truth. The easy answer. So what was your reaction to that moment, Vivek, and to the kind of a broader ideological disagreement that erupted between the two of you all throughout last night? Yeah, look, I think that there's the ideological disagreement, which I think is more important.

There's a personal dimension to this, at least to her. She's used four-letter words to name-call me in each of the last two debates. And you know what? For a Republican Party that has for a long time talked about Hunter Biden or otherwise, I think it's fair game for us to talk about the issues of anybody running for U.S. president. In this case, my criticism wasn't of her family or her daughter, though. It was a criticism of Nikki. Out of touch as a generation to say this is where young people are. And her utter obliviousness or lack of awareness of it was astounding to say that she's going to be sanctimonious,

lecturing families across this country about TikTok. It would be a gaping black hole not to observe that even in your own community, even your own family, like so many young people across this country, being on TikTok is not a sin, but it's worth calling that out. And that's a symptom of a deeper ideological disagreement, you're right, that I do have with her. I'm the only free speech absolutist on that stage. People like Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis as well, advocate for censorship of views that they disagree with. If they disagree with the platform, they think the right answer

is for Republicans to virtue signal, not show up on that platform. I view things differently. And I think that this is a symptom of a deeper generational divide in the GOP. Same thing with respect to going to foreign wars that don't advance the American interest. Nikki Haley is on the other side of that generational divide.

And the irony is that vis-a-vis Trump, she talks the need for generational change. The way I see it is that she's on the wrong side of the generational change that the Republican Party actually needs. She might have been an appropriate candidate back in 2002 or 2004, not today, out with the Nikki Haley's of the past and onto the future. I want to pick up on that about the censorship. We really want to give you a chance to actually elucidate some of your thoughts. Genuinely very standing out in terms of the rest of the stage. You know, we've had Chris Christie and others saying, you know, this crosses the line from free speech into hate speech. You mentioned Governor Ron DeSantis there banning the Students for Palestine moment.

Why do you think it's important to speak up on this issue, even though you ideologically believe that some of the statements made have been abhorrent? Oh, I definitely believe that many of those statements made have been abhorrent? Oh, I definitely believe that many of those statements are abhorrent. And my first message to the rest of the GOP field is, you know, back when I was writing Woke Inc. a few years ago, it wasn't popular to call out the hypocrisies of BLM or otherwise. They were chanting death to America, death to white people, death to Christians. Now they're chanting death to Israel. It's wrong then, it's wrong now. But it is interesting where the people who are on their high horses today, where they were three years ago or four years ago.

The deeper point is this though. We're a country where all opinions get to be expressed, no matter how heinous. That's what makes America itself. I mean, the thing that makes America, the United States, is our First Amendment that says that all opinions go no matter how heinous. So we're not going to fix anti-Semitism by telling people they can't express those opinions. I worry we would make the problem worse, actually, creating a worse underbelly of

toxic attitudes. Young people are lost. We need to lead them with actual leadership through example, not through censorship. And the American way is, you know what, we're the country that said the Nazis could march in Skokie. That's the United States of America. That's different than European countries. It's different than other countries around the world. That's what makes America great, though. And you mark my words for a conservative audience

to really make the point. If you then, a few years from now, want to go the direction of Ron DeSantis or Nikki Haley and censor views you don't disagree with, what do you think the other side is going to be doing when it comes to somebody who questions the side effect of vaccines? You could be labeled a bioterrorist. Somebody who says J6 peaceful protesters should be released from prison. Well, you're an insurrectionist terrorist. Somebody who says that you're a concerned parent showing up at a school board meeting,

we're already seeing it, labeled domestic terrorists. So I don't think that censorship should be a partisan issue. The free speech crusade that conservatives have been on, we undermine our own case if we say that it depends on whether you agree with the underlying views. And so are those statements of college campus students and otherwise, or students on college campuses, heinous in many cases? Yes, they are. They're lost and they're clueless about the Israel-Hamas conflict. They don't have the first idea about it. But the right answer isn't to tell them they can't express themselves.

That's anti-American. And I think it's unconstitutional when the likes of Ron DeSantis are even calling for using government power to ban student groups on campus. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone,

I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. If you have a case you'd like me to look into,

call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution.

But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multibillion-dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad.

It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st, and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott.

And this is season two of the War on Drugs podcast. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way. Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner.

It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding of what this quote-unquote drug thing is. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette.

MMA fighter Liz Caramouch. What we're doing now isn't working, and we need to change things. Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And to hear episodes one week early and ad-free with exclusive content, subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Vivek, I want to say, obviously, you and I have a lot of differences. I've really appreciated your consistency on this issue in particular, and I think it's been very rare. And it was nice to hear at least one person up on the stage last night articulating a clear vision of why free speech is important. I want to dig in a little bit more to, you know, you said the statements of some college students are heinous. You've said they're abhorrent. Do you think that it's anti-Semitic to criticize the Israeli government? Do you think it's anti-Semitic to criticize Zionism? Do you think it's anti-Semitic

to call for a ceasefire? So I think that we have to be very careful. I'm not one of these people that just sloppily throws around terms. We have enough anti-Semitism that actually exists in the world that we don't need to manufacture more of it i think more healthy debate on the merits is good frankly look at talk to your friends in israel as i have many of them are critical of the israeli government many of them are appropriately critical of bb if only the american press and the republican party here were as critical of the Israeli administration as many Israelis are in Israel, we could actually be having an open and honest debate, as we should. So here's my view. Israel has a right and responsibility to defend itself. And I think

it's wrong, forget the individual labels that you would use, but I would call it wrong and offensive to try to create a false moral equivalence between Israel's right to defend itself and Israel's actual defense of its homeland with the Hamas attacks on Israel, which were subhuman, medieval, and targeted civilians, drawing any kind of false equivalence. As you see in the subtext of even some of the comments from Secretary General Guterres and others, that's dead wrong. So our role as the U.S. I think should be a diplomatic one at the U.N. or internationally or otherwise saying that Israel absolutely has the right and responsibility to defend itself. That was the founding vision of Israel. That's what David

Ben-Gurion, the George Washington of Israel would have said. Heck, that's what I think George Washington would have said if he were in the United States today, but without intervening militarily into somebody else's conflict, let Israel get their own job done. Okay. Yeah. So just to want to answer your question a little bit more directly. Sure. I'll talk about, you know, you hear this discussion now coming about Palestinian genocide, right? And I think that's, let's just get to the facts, right? I'm not going to use, you know, anti-Semitic labels or anything else. Let's just get to the facts. I find that laughable because genocide refers to the elimination of a race of people. And so you have to contend with the fact that 20% of Israel's population is Palestinian. That's a greater percentage of

Israel's population than Hispanics or blacks of the US population. And probably the place on earth where the Palestinians live the best life in terms of a quality of life perspective and as civic participant citizens is in Israel. So when the facts alone speak for themselves that, yes, a lot of these anti-Israeli views on college campuses or elsewhere in Europe or elsewhere are deeply misguided. But we have to do it, if I may say this myself, the way I'm approaching this is win on the facts, win on the arguments, don't silence the expression of the views. So Vivek, I'm sure you know there are international legal scholars who say what Israel's doing right now is a textbook case of genocide. But I want to ask you a different question, though. Do you believe that Israel is following the Geneva Conventions in their, I don't think any, very few people would dispute they have a right to

defend themselves. But do you think they are, and do you think they should be following the Geneva conventions and international rules of war as they are, quote unquote, defending themselves? I do think the nation should follow the rules of international war. I have not seen evidence that they're not following the rules. So let. Let me offer some evidence. So one of the Geneva Conventions very clearly prohibits collective punishment. Right now you have all of Gaza, all 2.2 million some residents, you know, some Hamas, many innocent civilians, including women and children, who are under a collective siege. So barring, you know, water, food, fuel, et cetera, medical supplies, does that not amount to the violation of Geneva Conventions? I don't think so. Those are broad standards,

broadly defined. And Christopher, I'm going to answer your question, but I want to be very clear what hat I'm wearing. I'm running for president of the United States, not secretary general of the UN, not president of Israel or otherwise. And I've been very clear that the U.S. should stay out of this militarily or otherwise. I think we have our issues to worry about here at home. And so I'm not going to be one of these Republicans or Democrats that say, hey, write a small check to Israel, but then armchair quarterback what they do or don't do, or Monday morning quarterback the decision afterwards, or backseat driver from here for what Israel should do. I'm not in that camp and I'm at least consistent about it because I say we stay out in both directions. That being said, you're asking for my opinion. So I'm not speaking my capacity about what I would

do as commander in chief. You're asking for my opinion. Those are broad standards. And as an observer, here's what I will say. I believe Israel is very clear about moving, first of all, where they're going to go. Ask civilians, give a clear telegraph signal for civilians to protect themselves. I think that it is also telling that other Arab nations, I mean, Egypt initially reluctant. I think that there's a lot of responsibility to go around. And so when I think about this from the standpoint of a leader who would defend the United States, what would we do? We would have to have a clearly deterrent effect. My rule of thumb is if

you hit us, we will hit you back 10 times harder. Let's follow up on that, though. And this is important. It's fair to allow another country. And it's not even our job to allow or not allow, right? But I'm giving you my opinion. I'm an anti-interventionist. Well, when we, I mean, when we fund them with the amount of aid dollars that we do. So, for example, right now on the table is an additional $14 billion in military aid. You're against it completely. Go ahead. Articulate the case. This is where I want to give you a sense. I'm not in the standard axis here. I'm

principled and consistent, if I may say so myself on this, I think, which is the fact that Israel has a right to defend itself. And I diplomatically stand for that. But this is not our war to fight. And I don't think it's good for Israel. And I don't think it's good for the United States for us to muddy those waters. So my view, I said on the stage, I think last night, there was a lot that went on. But I think I said this on stage, which is I would tell Bibi, you torch the terrorists, smoke the terrorists on your southern border,

and then I'm going to worry about our southern border in this country, in the United States of America. And you have our diplomatic support to do it over there, and I expect yours as we do it over here, diplomatically. And I'm not going to ask for Israel's military resources to do it, and I'm not going to use ours to do it over there either. And my ultimatum to Iran, which I think will be successful, is you stay the hell out as long as we stay out as well. Let the IDF get its own job done. And that's how we prevent this from spreading to a broader war in the Middle East and, dare I say, even a broader war globally, which I don't want to see. We're not going to be interventionist, but that means in a couple of different directions. We can't just be also armchair

quarterbacking what Israel does or does not do. Yes, it's the job of international bodies to look after whether international laws are followed. I'm not running for president of the ICJ. I'm not running for secretary general of the UN. But as president of the United States, I think it's appropriate to provide them a diplomatic iron dome to prevent the UN or the EU from unfairly getting in the way of responding the way we would respond if our own country were hit. Well, to get into that, though, Vivek, as you said, you're talking about Iran. However,

we're already seeing indications that Iranian proxies are escalating not just against Israel, but against the United States. So in this case, we've had IRGC elements, or at least reportedly, who've attacked U.S. troops on multiple bases in Iraq and in Syria. We have seen threats from Hezbollah and others to enter the war. In those scenarios, so in the one that's real world where U.S. troops are being attacked, how would you respond to those attacks? And then secondary, if Hezbollah enters the war against Israel, what would your policy be as commander in chief? So a lot there.

Let me address the first piece of that first. Two good questions. So, so my view is if you hit us, you as a group, okay, like, like the group that hits us, if you hit us, we will hit you back 10 times harder. If you're hitting U.S. troops on U.S. bases, that is not okay. And we will have you pay hell as the consequence of it, the group that actually hits us. This is against a broader backdrop, Sagar, of my view that we should not be in Syria or Iraq in the first place. We were told that we left or quietly suggested in the American popular understanding of it that we left these places. Now we find out that our sons and daughters are still sitting targets in places that do not strategically advance the U.S. interests. So I'm not going to, you know,

that's not a decision I would have made and I would change that in the medium to long run. But in the media, in the meantime, if you hit us and you're that group, we will hit you back 10 times harder. Okay. Now you got to be careful about the rules of proxy warfare, because then you'll have Republican hawks saying that, oh, that means you go preemptively strike Iran. Well, on that theory of proxy warfare, just because Iran is funding some group and then that group does a thing against Israel, then that gives the right to hit Iran. Just think about that logic, say, in Ukraine. On that logic, that would give Russia a right to hit the United States. That would be nonsense. And on those broken theories of proxy war engagement, that's what provides a path to World War III, which I want to keep us out of. And I believe that staying out of World War III

right now is a vital U.S. national interest, especially when our homeland is as vulnerable as it's ever been. And so I would redirect a lot more of our national defense spending not to random presences in places like Syria and Iraq, but to protecting our own homeland from everything from cyber attacks to super EMP attacks, which, yes, Iran could mount on the United States, taking out an electric grid to nuclear missile defenses, to more basic missile defenses, which, yes, Iran could mount on the United States, taking out an electric grid, to nuclear missile defenses, to more basic missile defenses, to basic defenses of our border, to space-based defenses. Nobody's talking about this. This is where the priorities actually need to be. And that's where my worldview would be as commander-in-chief. Focus on defense of the

homeland, stay out of World War III, and let Israel get its own job done, given the diplomatic Iron Dome they need to do it. So Vivek, of course, the reality is that, you know, the bombs that are and stand a World War III and let Israel get its own job done, given the diplomatic iron dome they need to do it. So Vivek, of course, the reality is that, you know, the bombs that are being dropped oftentimes on Palestinian civilians at this point are stamp made in America. And I wonder if you worry that this fuels a security concern for our population. And if we're not breeding by allowing this to continue, this indiscriminate response from Israel, if we're not breeding extremism and hatred toward our country that could both fuel attacks on our troops, but also the type of terror that we experience from al-Qaeda and ISIS and the like.

That extremism exists whether or not we're breeding it. I do worry about the threats to the United States, though. 70,000 special interest aliens crossing our southern border that were just the ones that were apprehended last year. I mean, the day I visited the southern border about a month ago, the night before, there were two Lebanese men that had just been apprehended crossing. And for everyone who's apprehended, we don't know how many more, but we know there's a lot more that weren't. And so, yes, I think there are serious concerns. But the way we address that foremost is through actual border security, which we're missing both on our southern border and our northern border, too.

And so I don't think that we're going to convert people who are in a jihadist mindset out of it. But I also think that we have to be we don't need to be going out of our way to increase those risks to ourselves as well. So, again, my view, I don't mean to be repetitive here. Let Israel defend itself. We stay out militarily. I think even from a financial standpoint, my general rule of thumb is we're $34 trillion in national debt. We shouldn't be giving foreign aid, certainly new elective foreign aid to any country whose national debt per capita is less than ours. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend.

I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her. And it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking.

Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company

dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season 1. Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad. Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st,

and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Ad-free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. I'm Clayton English. I'm Greg Lott. And this is Season 2 of the War on Drugs podcast. Yes, sir. We are back. In a big way. In a very big way.

Real people, real perspectives. This is kind of star-studded a little bit, man. We got Ricky Williams, NFL player, Heisman Trophy winner. It's just a compassionate choice to allow players all reasonable means to care for themselves. Music stars Marcus King, John Osborne from Brothers Osborne. We have this misunderstanding

of what this quote-unquote drug thing is. Benny the Butcher. Brent Smith from Shinedown. We got B-Real from Cypress Hill. NHL enforcer Riley Cote. Marine Corvette. MMA fighter Liz Caramouch. What we're doing now isn't working, and we need to change things.

Stories matter, and it brings a face to them. It makes it real. It really does. It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. And to hear episodes one week early and ad-free with exclusive content,

subscribe to Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Last question to you, and this is on the electability front. The last time we spoke to you, you were the number two candidate in the race. We've seen a pretty major poll movement to Nikki Haley and with Ron DeSantis. You've kind of fallen out of that. What is your plan to close that up and to actually perform in Iowa and in New Hampshire? Yeah, I've bounced around between number two and number four nationally.

The reality, if you want to talk politics, horse race stuff, the other candidates, their super PACs have been flooding the airwaves with advertisements. We haven't done that until this week. My own campaign is going to be the one that's actually putting up ads in Iowa and New Hampshire. So we're competing to win. I think we're going to be successful. Nikki Haley hasn't faced the scrutiny. I'm going to just speak a hard truth, but I just think it's true. The mainstream media believes, I think, for identitarian and for identity politic reasons, and even the Republican establishment, though they criticize identity politics,

practices it all the time. I think that she has been shielded from a form of criticism. I mean, the things she's, four-letter names, she's been using the whole debate stage, but then you throw a criticism in reverse, and suddenly she can't handle it. My view is just because you have two X chromosomes doesn't mean you're immune from criticism for the corruption of selling off our foreign policy and your time in the UN to become a military contractor, to become on the board of Boeing, who you scratched for years as a governor of South Carolina, collecting stock options in the middle of running a presidential campaign, unprecedented as far as I know. You have Hillary Clinton-style

secretive speeches to foreign actors, making millions of dollars, going from being bankrupt in debt as a family to becoming a multimillionaire. Republicans criticize Biden for this, but have been carefully delicate about touching this around Nikki Haley and her family's issues.

Well, if you're running for president of the United States, I think she's going to get that scrutiny. The media's not giving it to her. I gave it to her on that debate stage and I'm just getting warmed up. And so I think when people see through that corruption, we're going to have a result here that puts us right back in that number two position, I think by, you know, between the period between the Iowa caucus and Super Tuesday, and I expect to be the nominee. All right. I got

one last one for you. You made a quip about Dick Cheney and three inch heels last night. Are you a Ron DeSantis heel truther? Yes or no? I said there's two of them on stage. That's what I said. All right. All right. How tall are you, Vivek, for the record? I'm just short of six.

Okay. All right. Just short of six. There we go. So he's right in line with the average. All right. We appreciate you joining us, sir. Thank you very much.

Thanks. Appreciate it. Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband. The murderer is still out there. Each week, I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

Stay informed, empowered, and ahead of the curve with the BIN News This Hour podcast. Updated hourly to bring you the latest stories shaping the Black community. From breaking headlines to cultural milestones, the Black Information Network delivers the facts, the voices, and the perspectives that matter 24-7. Because our stories deserve to be heard. Listen to the BIN News This Hour podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I've seen a lot of stuff over 30 years, you know, some very despicable crime and things that are kind of tough to wrap your head around. And this ranks right up there in the pantheon of Rhode Island fraudsters. I've always been told I'm a really good listener, right? And I maximized that while I was lying.

Listen to Deep Cover, The Truth About Sarah on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.