Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 12/10/25: Josh Shapiro War On Kamala, Newsom Dodges AIPAC Questions, Corporate Lobbyist Vs The Rich

Episode Date: December 10, 2025

Ryan and Emily discuss Shapiro launches war on Kamala, Newsom dodges AIPAC questions, corporate lobbyist rails against the rich.    To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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When Larry's killed, Gabe must untangle a dangerous past, one that could destroy everything he thought he knew. Listen to the brothers Ortiz. the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Stefan Curry, and this is Gentleman's Cut. I think what makes Gentleman's Cut different is me being a part of, you know, developing the profile of this beautiful finished product. With every sip, you get a little something different.

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It's your boy, Kevin on stage. I want to tell you about my new podcast called Not My Best Moment, where I talk to artists, athletes, entertainers, creators, friends, people I admire who had massive success about their massive failures. What did they mess up on? What is their heartbreak? And what did they learn from it? I got judged horribly.

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We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Kamala Harris seems to still be set on running for president. Again, someday, The New York Times had a very, very splashy profile for her. Let's put a D2 on the screen, actually, all kinds of interesting stuff in this profile, but her profile recently in the Atlantic. caused some trouble. We're going to talk about that in a bit. First, in this New York Times piece, Comalieres seems to be pretty eager to run again. She made all kinds of news for a particular

quote, where she told Shane Goldmacher, I understand the focus on 2028 and all of that. But there will be a marble bust of me in Congress. I am a historic figure like any vice president of the United States ever was. Goldmacher followed Harris around to different book tour stops and really does some, I don't know, does her some favors in this piece by making it sound as though everywhere she went, everyone was clamoring to see Kamala Harris. Young black women in particular Goldmacher reports were delighted to see Kamala Harris or big fans of Kamala Harris. I'm just skeptical that that's any significant portion of the country in terms of the number. numbers, but she's getting into trouble. Her profile with the Atlantic, she, I'm sorry,

that Josh Shapiro profile in the Atlantic, saw him responding to something in her book 107 days, which I might have to eat crow on because I was like, this book's not going to sell anything. Oh, yeah. We both were wrong about that. Compared to what books used to sell, it didn't sell that many, but 600,000 copies, according to the Times profile, makes it like the best selling memoir of the year. Some of that could be big corporations having Kamala come speak and buying books, but it's still a big number. I don't know with a lot of books.

Yeah, people, people, maybe people are clamoring for Kamala Harris, Ryan, and we were wrong the whole time. Let's play this clip, though, of Josh Shapiro, governor of Pennsylvania, responding a little fun 2028 preview here to Simone Sanders of

NMS now. You need to correct myself here. Asking him, if he really said, if he really called some of Harris's claims, Here's a quote, and you are describing former Vice President Kamala Harris here. It says, I mean, she's trying to sell books and cover her ass. Sorry, standards. Shapiro snapped.

I shouldn't say cover her word I shouldn't say on standards. I think that's not appropriate, Shapiro said. His tone was suddenly collected. She's trying to sell books, period. What were you trying to signal in that moment, sir? You want to parse this out for us? There's no parsing. Look, I stand by what I said.

I think the way in which the author described my emotion, frankly, was not accurate, but the words are mine, and I stand by them. I think what was relayed to me by that author that the vice president had written about me just simply wasn't true. And, you know, I think the vice president and I had very, and continued to have very candid conversations. And I think the way in which it was articulated to me, what was said was certainly not accurate. Shapiro owns it. What do you think, Graham? It was pretty funny. So yeah, I mean,

he's like, look, I said what I said. Yeah. And yeah, she was doing a little C.YA. Like, I don't think anybody is going to disagree with that. On the point of Kamala Harris being a historical figure, I'm just looking up some of the other historical figures that she'll join. I see Wikipedia up on your laptop. Do you watch Miracle on 34th Street every year? Not at year. I just learned something right now. One of the iconic scenes in Miracle on 34th Street turns out to be incorrect. When Santa is doing the wellness check, like the cognitive test that Donald Trump famously aced, remember they're giving him the psychiatric evaluation, and they ask him who is the vice president under John Quincy Adams? Because they're trying

to get him to fail. And he says, Daniel D. Tompkins. It's a fan. It's a, it's, is one of this classic scene. Turns out that's not true. And I just realized that right now. Which I actually should have known because Quincy Adams was Calhoun was his vice president. It looks like what happened is this is before Google and Wikipedia. And so the Miracle on 34th Street writers said who was the sixth vice president? And the sixth vice president was Daniel D. Tompkins, sixth president was Quincy Adams.

sure so they were like oh they must have been together they put it in chat gpt they didn't have they didn't have a book on hand that they could look for they just had a chart or something of who this or maybe they just sat around and it was who knows the six and anyway it's a deep joke for people like you maybe it is a deep joke wow that is that that is wild it might be there's a little easter egg in miracle 34th street right and group just discovered this i and maybe this is a widely known thing among Miracle on 34th Streetheads. But anyway, so Daniel D. Tompkins, Martin Van Buren, he became president, Richard Mentor Johnson, Vice President, George Dallas, Miller Fillmore. Oh, he's a classic. Billy King, John Breckenridge, Hannibal Hamlin. This is fun.

Abraham Lincoln's Vice President. Skylar Colfax. Also has a bust in the Capitol, as does. Henry Wilson, William Wheeler, Rutherford for B. Hayes' vice president. There you go, Kamala Harris. What more could you ask? Jester Arthur, Garfield, he became president. Are you watching the new James Garfield series on Netflix? It's fantastic. I didn't even know there was one. I'm very excited for that. Yes, you'll love it.

Garrett Hobart. These are the esteemed ranks of men Kamala Harris will join with her bust in the Capitol. Maybe she'll be right next to Garrett Hobart. She might. And that, again, what more could you ask for? Or maybe Chuck Fairbanks? Maybe Chuck Fairbanks. Jim Sherman? So do you...

Tom Marshall? I know a lot of history. Like half these people, I'm like... Wikipedia could be totally lying to me. It seems so... Yeah, that's true. We could have just done a lot of fake news. Charles Dawes?

It seems so obvious that nobody... That was Calvin Coolidge's vice president for those who are not up on their history. It's like what we're going to be saying about that was Joe Biden's vice president. 200 years from now, someone's going to be explaining that to someone. Kamala Harris, that was Joe Biden's vice president. still be failing to pronounce it accurately. Yes. Yes.

But Josh Shapiro, love him or hate him, feels a lot more like the future of the Democratic Party than Kamala Harris does. And also the past, which is also impressive. Because he's Obama-esque. Yeah. Right. Yeah. Same cadence.

Should we move on to Gavin Newsom? I think we might as well. Let's do it. All right. So, Ryan, Gavin Newsome got a question about his relationship with A-PAC. go ahead. This is from Jack Cotorella. Do you know who Jack Coucherellans? Mm-mm. I don't either. He follows me, so maybe he watches.

Okay. Shout out to you, Jack. Good question. Let's roll the clip. A little bit ago you did an interview, higher learning, and the question of, well, the question of APEC came up. Oh, yeah. And it wasn't really necessarily a question of APEC. It was just a random, and thought about APEC, which I've never received any money from APEC. It was sort of curious kind of raised. APAC, DMFI, the Israel lobby at large. This has become a big conversation and someone like myself. And I think at this point, a broad majority of Democrats are saying,

we don't want candidates who are taking money from AIPAC. We don't want candidates who are beholden to the Israel lobby. When you look at what you are able to accomplish with the groundswell of support financially from people who said, I want to back this, I want to back fighters, I want to back people who are independent of an establishment. How do you think about APAC now? And maybe someone like Seth Moulton who said, I want to return this money. I'm not taking it anymore. How do you think that A-PAC should be

involved or shouldn't be involved? Well, they've never been involved with me. I've never received a dollar from them in my entire political career. So that's sort of absolute. So I've had opinion on that going back decades now. I don't take, you know, tobacco money, oil money. I've never taken A-PAC money. I mean, there's certain absolutes that are the lines that have been drawn for decades for me. And those will continue. And to the extent they need to evolve because of the devolution of certain interests. And we're experiencing that. in real time along the lines of what we'll be talking perhaps that will even grow but the small dollar is become just the lifeblood for me okay ryan uh sign of the times for sure we can also

put this next element up on the screen marjorie taylor green uh let's run this yeah this is the marjorie taylor green with the track apac saying i'm america first thank you for your attention to this matter it shows her taking zero dollars from apac and trump taking what is that 230 million, upwards of $230 million from APEC. So Gavin Newsom has landed on this answer. What does that tell us, Ryan? And what was the answer that he might in the future? He's never taken APEC money and he might not take it going forward?

Is that the... He said this is a line he has drawn and he will continue not to take money from APEC. I thought he was saying the line that he drew was on, tobacco and that he might draw a line that's how you interpret it yeah in the future if he feels that that's necessary should we run it again if you're watching this you're in luck you can just scroll back and go listen to him

go listen to him again I thought he left himself for a little bit of wiggle room I mean that wouldn't be out of the question for Gavin Newsom he said I don't take tobacco money oil money and I've never taken APEC money there is certain change in tents right yeah don't take this i don't take that and i've never taken that and to your point here's the next sentence there are certain absolute slender the lines that have been drawn for decades because the passive tense yeah and then he says and it might in the future that line might have to change to include apex god this guy's slick yeah yeah he is so yes so what he is saying is that

he's never taken it before um but he doesn't have a policy against taking it yet. He does have a policy against taking tobacco money and this other stuff. But in the future, if he's under enough pressure, he might draw a policy that says, I will not take it. Yes. Which would actually genuinely be a remarkable political development if the, like, a leading, like, establishment candidate for the Democratic nomination, just straight up said, I'm not taking A-PAC money. That would actually be a seismic shift. So the fact that he's like leaving open the door for it even and trying to make you and i think that he said it yeah yeah exactly he almost got us well it's it's slick in the like did he get you a legalistic sense like how the the language

is slick it's not slick in a sense that i think a lot of people see that and are like just say no just say no but let's let's do a survey in the comments like did he did he get you did you did you think that he said he was not going to take apac money you always got to see the transcript sometimes you have to see that to be like what's he doing here and we'll also see how this plays out. We talked earlier in the show about the Texas Democratic Senate primary. I'm very curious to see how the APEC questions play out given Jasmine Crockett and Tala Rico both. Tala Rico has an existing relationship with Miriam Edelson said basically about gambling, by the way, which is another reason.

I took Merriam Edelson money to support her gambling empire, not for-and-you- And also, by the way, I am the evangelical Christian with her in this race, which is insane. another reason. And he did vote to support the gambling stuff. So like that it all checks out. Yeah, a little transactional there. But yeah, I mean, that's another, again, just another reason that when the DC people see him referencing scripture, it doesn't, it's not going to land with evangelical Christians

because it's a totally different, like, language, the way that he frames his faith-based approach of politics. Like, evangelical Christians are still like the redoubt. So it's like the holdout in gambling. That is one area of the culture where there's all gambling holdout. So anyway, we'll see how all of this plays out in that primary. I think it will be very interesting. We were talking about Goldman and Lander.

We'll also be the Israel question to policy towards Israel. That'll be interesting in that race as well because I'm sure it's going to come up. Yes, indeed. All right. Well, let's go ahead and get to Sam Godaltig. Ryan, this is going to be pretty interesting. Excellent. It's 5.23 p.m.

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How is that not a story we all know? What's this? Where is that? Why is it wet? Boy, do we have a show for you? From smartless media, campside media, and big money players comes crimeless. Join me, Josh Dean, investigative journalists. And me, Roy Scoville, comedian. as we celebrate the amazing creativity of the world's dumbest criminals.

We'll look into some of the silliest ways folks have broken the laws. Honestly, it feels more like a high-level prank than a crime. Who catfishes a city? And meets some memorable anti-heroes. There are thousands of angry, horny monkeys. Clap if you think, she's a witch. And it freaks you out. He has x-ray vision.

How could I not follow him? Honestly, I got to follow him. He can see right through me. Listen to Crimless on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience.

But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the calls. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it. When Larry is murdered, Gabe was forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot.

The brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story. about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joining us now is Sam Godaldig, a big shot Republican lobbyist here in Washington with the firm CGCN, who is focused for decades now on the class divide. when it comes to advocacy around Congress and the divisions between and within the parties.

Sam's firm has a fascinating new report out, so we're excited to welcome him back. Sam, how you doing? Doing great. Good to see you guys. Excellent. So the new report is called Class Dismiss, and there's a lot of kind of interesting insights about our current politics that we want to walk through here.

But sketch out for us, like where, like where, this comes from and people are going to be like already asking themselves why is a lobbyist care about this like how is this how is this useful to advocacy for the corporate clients that you have here in Washington so we we've known this for a long time because we go into a lot of offices and it's kind of instinctual once you start visiting with members of Congress you know in your head, you kind of characterize a Freedom Caucus member, a problem solver member, a Black Caucus member, a Hispanic caucus member. And the feel in every meeting is a little different. And you walk out after, you know, for me now, 20 years in the business, thousands of

meetings. And you can start to see a pattern. There's like a pattern recognition that goes along with it. And you realize that the members that represent the wealthier congressional districts also have the best reputation in Washington, D.C., among think tanks, journalists, other lobbyists. So there's this unconscious bias towards calling the people that represent the wealthier parts of the country, reasonable, thoughtful, productive. And there's the same pattern recognition when it comes to members of the Freedom Caucus, the Black Caucus, the Hispanic caucus, and there's a caucus that is not as well known called the Anti-Woke Caucus. And that pattern recognition leads you to believe that those members are destructive problems, not productive in any

way, not worth lobbying. They're crazy. They're, you know, whatever the word might be that, you know, and I'd love to see like a grouping of focus group boards amongst like the elites and Washington, how they describe the members that come from the poorer parts of the country. And, you know, after 20 years, you start, like, it opens your eyes and you're like, holy shit, everyone here is a classist. So you ask why a Republican lobbying firm went to the effort to document all this. And it's honestly because we're trying to teach our corporate clients, like, what they're dealing with and how to be successful in Washington. It also is meant to get them to reframe an unconscious bias that they have against those members.

Those members are dealing with horrible issues, and we documented in class dismissed, too. They're more likely to die of opioid deaths. They're more likely to serve in the military. They're more likely to be unemployed. They're more likely to live less long than the wealthier constituents in wealthy districts. So, you know, it kind of makes sense. It's like, why is everyone hating on these people that have such a, such a. a sorry story to tell and there's once you look at it that way you can't unsee it it's almost like

you go to spencer gifts as you're as a kid and they put one of those posters in front of you and they tell you to unfocus your eyes and you can see it and it's like once you see it you can't never see it again so i feel like a little bit like we're screaming into you know avoid just telling everyone what we see and more and more people are starting to see it trump certainly awakened that, like, pundits and the way mainstream news media cover Trump's win in 2024. They're starting to recognize it, but class dismissed walks you through just how hard it is for a lot of constituencies in America, Dem and Republican, and why their representatives might be framed as not productive because their voters are angry and they want change.

Right. In Washington, it's strange to see people come to town acting like their hair is on fire, whether they're from the Freedom Caucus or their AOC. But what your report shows is that they're coming from places where their hair should be on fire. It would be irrational for them to not be furious at the system and focused on overturning it or fixing it or change it, however you want to say. But let's put this graphic up on the screen. You found the 30th wealthiest districts. Seven of them are GOP representatives, or represented by Republicans. and 23 are represented by Democrats, similar breakdowns just in other metrics that you guys

looked at, Sam, but this is kind of the, you're putting numbers to the realignment. What has kind of, maybe Trump was the first to really recognize it in modern political history, but the underpinnings, quantitative underpinnings of the ideological realignment. Do you see it that way? Is that how you talk about this when you're, going into, you know, meetings with people who corporate clients that may have been used to sitting down and having a pretty open year in Republican offices. And that's not always going to be the case this time around.

Yes, 100%. So that's the purest distillation of the data. And we go really deep into other metrics. But the 30 poorest and 30 wealthiest proves the point that, you know, there's an old conventional wisdom that Republicans will reflexively help the business community and maybe specifically the Fortune 500. And more and more, the Republican rank and file, the meat of the Republican Party represents constituencies

that have had a really tough go of it. And those voters in those congressional districts are not as reflexively ideologically pro-business as the party was, say, during the George W. Bush years 20 years ago. So politics has evolved. Republican voters have evolved Democratic. voters have evolved. And which very interesting is the fact that, you know, the Democrats have not

lost their anger or heat towards corporate America. But Republicans now are fighting for the same constituencies that Democrats once completely commanded a long time ago. And I've never seen it in the 30 years I've been here. I was a staffer for about 12 and now I've been lobbying. Both parties consider working class voters the base of their party. And I'm not sure who's right. I mean, maybe we'll find out in the midterms. Maybe we'll find out in the 2028 election. I think they're almost completely up for grab. And if you look at like how Trump did with Hispanic men, he won 52% of Hispanic men nationally. Like that's an insane progression from, you know, the Bush years when we thought we reached the pinnacle of success when we had marginal

success with Hispanic voters. So, you know, I feel like the mainstream media, the people that cover Washington, whether you're a professor or a journalist or a think tank fellow, they kind of resort back to this lazy conventional wisdom that's definitely not true anymore. And I think it's our job to tell our clients how to successfully win and how to frame up arguments that used to work but no longer do. Being a parent is basically a juggling act. Dinner, hockey practice, homework, a last-minute science project, and someone's always, always shouting for you from another room.

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Dad had the strong belief that the devil was attacking us. Two brothers, one devout household, two radically different paths. Gabe Ortiz became one of the highest-ranking law enforcement officers in Texas. 32 years, total law enforcement experience. But his brother Larry, he stayed behind and built an entirely different legacy. He was the head of this gang, and nobody was going to tell him what to do. You're going to push that line for the calls. Took us under his wing and showed us the game, as they call it.

When Larry is murdered, Gabe is forced to confront the past he tried to leave behind and uncover secrets he never saw coming. My dad had a whole other life that we never knew about. Like, my mom started screaming my dad's name, and I just heard one gunshot. The brothers Ortiz is a gripping true story. about faith, family, and how two lives can drift so far apart and collide in the most devastating way. Listen to the Brothers Ortiz on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

And so then if you look at the 30 poorest districts, the breakdown's a little more even. You have 18 of those districts represented by Democrats and 12 of them represented by Republicans. there's also like a stark racial divide there the democratic districts are going to be you know in general black caucus or Hispanic caucus members and then the republican districts are going to be overwhelmingly you know white districts poor white districts if you expand it out to like the hundred poorest do you even get closer to parity like what let's say let's say about 50 50 almost? Yeah, I think like the Republicans, and I don't have the data in front of me, and I apologize, but I think what if you really took a deep dive look into the middle, the Democrats kind of

dominate both ends of it. So the poorest districts in the country are almost exclusively black and Hispanic caucus, and they're all Democrats that represent those districts. The wealthiest are almost exclusively white Democrats. And then the middle is a huge chunk. of Republicans that skew poorer than wealthier. So I think the middle would be like a lot of Republicans, more Republicans than Democrats, and those Republicans are probably representing less wealthy districts. And if you broke it down into the caucuses, you would find that the Republicans from the wealthier districts join moderate mainstream. Again, these are very nice words, moderate, mainstream centrist. They join caucuses that reflect those viewpoints. And,

And the people from the poorer districts, their caucuses are not described quite as kindly. And when you, no, they're not at all. So when you would have started, you know, 30 years, you know, 25, 30 years ago, and you looked at the top 30, they would have been overwhelmingly Republican probably still at that point. So as you, as you watched this unfold, like, what did you see happen? Like, how did those districts, you know, start to go Democratic? What effect do you think that has had on the kind of middle districts as you have this like then polarization between the haves and have-nots?

I think a lot of things happened over the last 10 years, notably the most was Donald Trump beating Hillary Clinton in 2016, which was kind of a continuation of the Tea Party that started in 2010 when you had Republicans challenging. So, like, my favorite example is Marco Rubio was, like, tried to be, they tried to run him out of a primary against now Democrat Charlie Christ, who's a popular Republican governor. Mitch McConnell opposed Rubio running. I don't know if you remember that, but he was dead set against Rubio jumping in the race. And, you know, now he's a fantastic, you know, maybe you disagree, Ryan, but he's certainly a competent secretary of state. And arguably a populist. Right. Like, all it proves to me is, like, the conventional wisdom and the smartest people in the room get shit wrong all the time. Like, Marco is wonderful for our party. And now I just think the Democrats are, like, on a lag behind that Tea Party.

And I think we're starting to see it. And nobody documents it better than Ryan Grimm on the left. And I wouldn't pretend to know as much. But Jasmine Crockett challenging Tala Rico in Texas, their dream candidate to take a very traditionally red state. they're going to come up with a lot of reasons why she's not productive. She's not helping. She could go on to be a secretary of state. I've seen her on TV. They platform her all the time. She's in a voting rights district in the House. And here's the other thing that we've noticed.

There is a glass ceiling on black and Hispanic senators and governors moving up into statewide positions. They're very well represented in the House. And a lot of that is because of the Voting Rights Act, which creates minority, majority districts, the states don't have any such governor. So I can't, for the life of me, think of a reason why black and Hispanic politicians who represent the base of the Democratic Party have had such a difficult time racking into statewide elected positions in the bluest of states. You know, I remember when we were talking a long time ago, Ryan, I wrote a check to Donna Edwards to prove a point.

And she was running for Senate against Chris Van Hollen, right? Correct. Correct. And I guess the point is everyone has to play their role according to this town. And again, the town being think tank fellows, journalists, lobbyists, the smart people. And they put people in these boxes that are, I think it's racist. Like, I'd love to hear a Democrat pundit explain to me why Jasmine Crockett shouldn't run. Like, I'd love to just let them just go. We talked about it. We talked about that earlier in the show, and she actually is kind of a perfect K Street candidate in that sense, had pledged, had, you know, had bragged about not taking corporate PAC money, since has taken enormous amounts of corporate PAC money, has taken millions in support from crypto, has been, you know, pretty, you know, went on an APAC trip to Israel. So I think some people are going to have some arguments around substance when it comes to Crockett. But your point is a legitimate one that for all of their talk, when it comes to a, then the Maryland case is a good example, when it comes to a blue state, you know, where the Democrat is going to win, there often is not support for black candidates. Now, who are the two senators now from? Also Brooks? Oh, so, yeah, so also Brooks did finally break through.

But nowhere near, you know, nowhere near where it should be. No, not for a party that has weaponized race. And again, I don't want to make it about parties. I want to make it about the city, Washington, the city we all live in, the city we never leave. They do. Politicians come and go. They serve an average of, you know, 10 years in Congress generally, and then they

leave. I've been here 30. I don't know how long Ryan and Emily, you've been here. But, like, we don't leave. We're Washingtonians. We make a living here. and we set the stage. And I just think that conventional wisdom is completely lopsided, upside down, broken, not relevant.

What, you know, choose the term you want. But, like, maybe we're not so smart. Maybe Marco Rubio was one of the best things to happen to the Republican Party. Maybe Jasmine Crockett might be. Who knows? Like, who are we to say? We've been proven wrong so often. It's not funny.

Mm-hmm. My last question, Sam, is if your corporate clients have started to realize this is not a flash in the pan, because one of the things this data I think makes clear is that it's not a flash in the pan, that it's too deeply rooted to suddenly change, that there's populism, whether it's Democratic populism or Republican populism, there's a class-based populism that's emerged as a pattern. as a trend. Do you think Washington is realizing, is coping with that? Do you think they're just because I think actually Crockett and Tala Rico are kind of good examples. Like, oh, here's your populist messaging, but neither of them is like a populist candidate, truly, you know, at least from what we can tell so far. Is that sinking in? So you guys have a beef with corporate America. I kind of don't. Like, I just don't. Like, I get that you're upset about them. and I'm not. But whatever, we can have a nice conversation. I think they're like water.

Like, if you show them the path to success, whatever it might be, they'll get there, maybe not quickly. It's not easy to see the image in the poster that we talked about. But increasingly, more and more people are starting to see the image and some of this stuff makes sense. But it has to break a frame of how you were raised, how you were, you know, what situation you grew up in. We've talked about this in class dismissed one. the first document we did, talks a little bit about, you know, the unconscious bias of wealthier suburban kids moving to Washington and the world, as they understand, it might not be the same as the way, you know, other Washingtonians moved here. And I think Washington happens to be

corporate America, too, dominated by people that, you know, went to a four-year college, grew up in a wealthy, you know, a wealthy suburb of a major city, have been urbanized. a touch. But, you know, it's, I'm not ashamed of that way of thinking. And I grew up that way, too. But like, again, going to every congressional office or a lot of them over 20 years has opened my eyes and going to their fundraisers and hearing them explain why they're so mad and what it's like when they go home and what they have to hear and what their constituents are upset about, it breaks the frame. And most people don't have that luxury where they can pop. into a congressional office and get a real taste of America. I've lived here for 30 years,

but I kind of understand it because I've listened to them honestly speak about struggles they have when they go home. So it's made me more open-minded. I'm proud to be open-minded. And that's kind of why we write the memos to explain what 20 years of talking to members of Congress has revealed to us. And I will say on your point about your love of corporate America, that you kind of only know what you had until it's gone. Like compared to the oligarchs that are now kind of the dominant power structure in the U.S., I'm almost like wistful for the time of like the corporate capture of Americans. Like, can we go? Can we go back to that? Like, yeah, it's careful what you wish for. That happens in Washington a lot. At least they had some

like nominal connection to the United States and some like connection to the national interest. Not so much with these new guys. I'm not going to get myself in trouble, Ryan. You go on and rail about them, and I'll keep representing them. And it'll be like the sheep dog and, you know, the famous Lutie Tunes cartoon where we can grab a beer after work and go back at it. That's right. There we go.

Sounds good. Well, folks can read this report. We'll put the report in the video link, but they can also read it on the CGCN website. Sam, this was really interesting. I appreciate you coming on. Thank you for having me, guys. Always great to see you. Of course. See you later. Well, that does it for us on today's edition of Breaking Points.

Ryan, it was great to have Godalding on. Indeed. And we'll see everybody at the Miracle Theater tonight. You will all be there. You'll all be there. You can still get tickets on the Reason website. Or you can just Google, I think it's Reason Verses. And Ryan and I have the links on our X accounts as well. We'll put it in the video description, I think, too.

So you've plenty of places to find it. No excuse. really no excuse every single one of you to be there yeah that's right we'll be hanging out afterwards there's like a post yes thing i can't stay too long yeah because then i have to go do uh after party live emily's day on wednesday like very early morning all the way debate and then after party live yeah it's a lot people should probably watch that it's probably gonna be disaster i would have like gatorade on stage i'm wearing one of those backpacks with like the hydration straw it'll be good all right everyone thanks so much for tuning in we'll see you

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