Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 1/23/25: 'Woke' Bishop Sermon To Trump Debate, Neocon War On America First, Trump Tells Putin End The War Or Face Sanctions

Episode Date: January 23, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss debate on 'woke' bishop sermon to Trump, neocon war on Trump America Firsters, Trump tells Putin to end the war or face more sanctions.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It makes it real. Listen to new episodes of the War on Drugs podcast season two on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. On the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast you, please go to BreakingPoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at BreakingPoints.com. All right, let's go ahead and get to this sermon, which became quite controversial. A bishop who was presiding over services at the National Cathedral that Trump and Vance and the whole family attended after the inauguration had a special message for the president

that ruffled quite a lot of feathers. Let's take a listen to what she had to say. Let me make one final plea, Mr. President. Millions have put their trust in you, and as you told the nation yesterday, you have felt the providential hand of a loving God. In the name of our God, I ask you to have mercy upon the people in our country who are scared now. There are gay, lesbian, and transgender children in Democratic, Republican, and Independent families, some who fear for their lives.

And the people, the people who pick our crops and clean our office buildings, who labor in poultry farms and meat packing plants, who wash the dishes after we eat in restaurants and work the night shifts in hospitals, they may not be citizens or have the proper documentation. But the vast majority of immigrants are not criminals. They pay taxes and are good neighbors. They are faithful members of our churches and mosques,

synagogues, wadara, and temples. Our God teaches us that we are to be merciful to the stranger, for we will all want strangers in this land. So this triggered a total meltdown and angry freakout on the right, which went up to and included the president himself. We can put Trump's response here up on the screen. The so-called bishop who spoke at the National Prayer Service on Tuesday morning was a radical left hardline Trump hater. She brought her church into the world of politics in a very ungracious way. That's true. I think that's true. We'll continue that. She was nasty in tone, not compelling or smart, failed to mention the large number of illegal migrants that came into our country and killed people.

Many were deposited from jails and mental institutions. That part he just makes up. It's a giant crime wave that is taking place in the USA. Also not true. Apart from her inappropriate statements, the service was a very boring and uninspiring one. She's not very good at her job. She and her church owe the public an apology for a very basic message of Christian mercy and compassion. This is what I mean, Crystal. We're atheists, okay? This is what an atheist Libs version of Christianity looks like.

But hold on a second. What part of what she said, first of all, offends you, and second of all, what part of it is dissonant with the teachings of Jesus? Well, I'm not a Christian, so I won't get into the differences of Episcopal versus Catholic and all of that. And by the way, many of my Episcopal friends' exact complaint about the Episcopal church is exactly about this. Basically, they'll ordain anybody, and that's why there's all these different offshoots and huge fights within the church over gay and BLM and all this stuff.

So that's part of the reason why a lot of my friends, actually people like JD, became Catholic is because of the actual doctrine that it sticks to. But this is getting over my skis because I'm not Christian. I'm not going to Christian-splain it to other people. It drives me nuts, not only with her or with others, with people who are, what is it, like preachers who take the pulpit under their tax-free status and then use it as a pulpit to preach politics. And so here, again, you're watching this message of this glib-coded bishop explaining a political position and using that under the word of God to make a point. And so that's why

it annoys the crap out of me. My Christian friends, for them, it's a bastardization of their religion. But beyond that, it's really just about the bigger point of you're using your position and cloaking it in the faith of the Bible, which is not 100% clear, okay? Anybody out there, the Christians themselves can't even agree on what it says. To then use that to push what is an overtly political point, it just seems ridiculous. And look, I mean, no one can call me a hypocrite on this. I can't stand all this pro-life preaching and all this other political activism. I think all of them should have to pay taxes. It's one of the biggest scams in the entire country. So any political Christianity or any of that, I'm totally out on. I think it's incredibly hypocritical for the right to complain about politics in the church when, I mean, the moral majority, like, explicitly argue with Falwell to vote for Ronald Reagan.

Politics is a central part of the certainly evangelical, like you go to any of these mega churches. Yeah, it's bad. And it is super political. And the truth of the matter is, though, I mean, to the extent that politics and religion both have to do with your core values, which both of them do,

I don't think you can really extricate politics completely from religion. But what's interesting to me, I mean— But that's what they say. That's their justification for all of their political activism. What's interesting to me, though, is that, you know, I'm also not, like, you know, an expert on the Bible. However, the, you know, the teachings on immigrants in particular seem to be pretty consistent and about things like compassion and remembering their humanity. I mean, just here's one verse. He defends the cause of the fatherless and the widow and loves the foreigner residing among you, giving them food and clothing.

And you are to love those who are foreigners for you yourselves were foreigners in Egypt. So to me, it's very telling that there is such a vociferous, angry reaction to someone who didn't even say, like, don't deport them or don't do this. He just said, you know, show mercy and have some compassion because these are human beings. Okay, but what does compassion mean? To me, that seems- What does compassion mean? Letting you stay here forever, right? Oh, interesting. Well, she didn't say that.

No, but that's the implication. But to me, the fact that there is such outrage by an entire political ideological group, by just asking to recognize people's basic humanity, and what she said, again, i think is entirely consistent with the teachings of the bible and you know the message of christianity and jesus christ etc that that would be received so angrily is to me just it's very telling because because you don't see the policy implication crystal which is when she says compassion she says oh they need to be able to stay here when she said oh transgender are afraid it's like yeah because we want not we want children not to be

plugged full of hormones but what's so wrong with her having that view and no there's nothing wrong with it but you're but you're cloaking it in jesus that's the issue you're also putting words in her mouth that she didn't it doesn't take a genius to figure say what's happening here so if you know she's allowed to have her religious faith and interpretation of this and the fact that there was such outrage over just like hey maybe show some mercy to these groups because they also are human beings and they're also like you know fearful in this moment um which i can tell you is definitely 100% true, I think it displays that there's just, there's such a level of dehumanization that goes on. And I think it's possible to say, I have compassion for these people, but also obviously this isn't the view I agree with,

but also I think there are these other priorities and, you know, we have to have borders and be a nation and we have to take care of the people here. Like, you can still have empathy for human beings who are, by and large, trying to make a better life for themselves and trying to do the best they can for their kids and their family. You can have empathy and compassion for them, but also, you know, have a different political approach. I don't think those two things have to be dissonant. But the fact it was taken as such an attack, I don't know. It is an attack because it is a political implication when we when they say compassion We're done being psyoped into oh, you know compassion and all of this But that means that's why they have to stay here forever and actually they did all deserve citizenship

And oh, there are a lot of gay and transgender people who are scared. It's like, nobody wants you to be scared, right? But that means that, oh, we shouldn't be worried about plugging children full of hormones and integral, whatever, you know, sports leagues and allowing men to compete in women's sports. It's like, we all know what it means. That's why this is being rejected. And by the way, I was around long enough to be against church and state whenever it was coming. You know, the left was criticizing the right. I think we should do the same here. No offense. I don't really care what Jesus has to say about my country's border policy. You guys believe whatever you want at home. Pete Hegseth is a Christian nationalist who wants like to use the Pentagon to wage a holy war. Okay. That's not what he said. I don't remember you being upset

about that or the other. I mean, there's many. By the way, yes, actually, I am upset. There is a large. Israeli holy purposes. There is a large and significant constituency in the Republican Party that self-describes as Christian nationalists. Yeah. And I don't remember any upset from you or any of these people. Any of you've never heard me rail against Brian Mass and all these other Christian nationalist psychos? Josh Hawley? Josh Hawley? Okay, fine.

Affirmatively describes himself as a Christian nationalist. Tell me something that he said about Israel and I'll criticize it here happily. But here's the thing. Like, that has been a core part of the Republican position. This very politicized version of Christianity, which many other Christians, including our own, you know, Tim Alberto, we interviewed him here about his book, who many other people think is a bastardization of their religion and the teachings of Jesus Christ that puts Trump and the Republican Party against the actual teachings of the Bible. So, you know, I don't

see any upset about that on the right and the politicization of Christianity when it's used to their benefit. But this very mild, very mild call for mercy for groups that are fearful right now and justifiably so in this moment, triggers a total freakout meltdown. I mean, they were really triggered by this. It was like very snowflake behavioral. Oh my God, how could you? This is outrageous, blah, blah, blah. And just to give you a little bit of the reaction, I think we have Laura Ingram here that we can go to to play. Let's see. This is B8 that we can play for you to get a sense of how the right reacted to this. She was so arrogant. The way she walked, she didn't even acknowledge the president of the United States of America. She had an opportunity to minister the gospel.

Instead of that, she is a heretic. She should never be allowed to preach the message of Jesus in her life because she's not even talking about Jesus. This is why no one's going to these... This is why these denominations are dying, sadly. But rather than a Christian service about God and country, they were forced to listen to the rantings of a lunatic.

I don't think it's a good luck to be fighting with a bishop. That's just me. You know what? First of all, she asked for good look to be fighting with a bishop. That's just me. She has. You know what? That's just me. First of all, she asked for it. She's fighting with the president of the United States.

She is judging him. She feels empowered. He's in office less than 24 hours. When the country wants unity, she's pulling up the leftist progressive talking points. It's not about her in her role as a bishop. Well, that's what she is. It's about her. I don't care what she is. It's about her and her role as a politician using the church and the pulpit of the church to engage in political discussion. Am I wrong, Greg?

That first dude there is the one who ran the crypto scam after speaking at Trump's inauguration. He's the pastor, Lorenzo, who launched his own meme coin crypto scam in speaking at Trump's inauguration. He's the pastor Lorenzo who launched his own meme coin crypto scam in response to his position there. But, you know, I mean, here's another leftist progressive talking point in the language of Judge Jeanine from Matthew. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat. I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink. I was a stranger and you invited me in. I needed clothes and you clothed me. I was sick and you licked after me. I was in prison and you came to visit me. Truly, I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me. So how is

that dissonant from what this bishop had to say here? Because Crystal, we are sitting here picking and choosing Bible verses, which have been bastardized through English now over thousands of years, and conveniently ignoring what is a Deuteronomy and all. This is what I mean. I'm not a Christian scholar. I'm not going to tell Christians what to believe. Here's Deuteronomy. You guys figure out your own shit.

You are to love those who are foreigners. Right. You yourselves are foreigners. Isn't there one in there about stoning people and Sodom and Gomorrah and all that? Why are we ignoring that? What about the things that you shall not put crops side by side specifically?

You're turning me into Bill Maher from Religious List. I mean, look, I'm not... That's what I mean. I'm not a Christian. So why are we picking and choosing Bible verses and saying, this is what Jesus believed. You don't know anything. But to be honest with you, one of the most consistent,

there are many inconsistencies in the Bible. Maybe one of the most consistent themes is the treatment of the, quote, foreigner, meant to be treated with compassion, humanity, etc. So to pretend like this is some, quote, unquote, leftist talking point versus something that is consistent with her view of the Bible. And people can hold other views and people do hold other views and that's fine. But it's just, to me, it's very interesting. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a

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The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper. And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down.

He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you, but then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat coming June 19th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Because we're outsiders trying to look at you. How outraged this was, you know, how much outrage this generated, especially because the group that primarily weaponizes Christianity and uses it to justify things that, in my opinion,

should not be justifiable, is the right and has been, you know, concernedly using that over many decades. One of the biggest pushers of BLM and, quote-unquote, racial justice has been specifically Episcopal churches and others. Walk around D.C. and look at all those signs with the BLM flags. One of the big pushers of the, you know, anti-woke and anti-COVID restrictions, etc., have also been religious groups. Yes, I agree. And the right has no smoke for them whatsoever.

We're arguing a straw man argument here, where it's like you're pointing out just because some people have been hypocritical that this is some empirically good. It's not good. It's always bad. We don't live in a Christian country, nor should we. What I'm pointing out is that it is interesting to me that a very mild message of have mercy and see people's humanity is treated with such visceral horror and outrage by a group of people.

I mean, of course you would see it that way because it aligns with your worldview. To me, it is an indication of, like, I think a political ideology that does not see people's humanity and is outraged at the suggestion that you should see people's humanity, I think that's sick. I do. I think that that is really sick. And that's the vibe that is coming out here. I mean, you talk about J.D. Vance, like, he's a Catholic. He's a very religious guy. Surely he recognizes the, you know, consistency with the Bible. Yes, he does recognize everyone's humanity, including the people who are... Why is it so outrageous? Why are you rolling your eyes? Where's the bishop talking about people who have been murdered here by who are illegal immigrants?

The people who suffer as a result of illegal immigration. Oh, there's no humanity there. Interesting. We're not going to talk about the effects of hormone changes on little girls and boys and with a sociological agenda being pushed here. There's no humanity for the victims of any of that. Those of us who are in our country completely— Obviously, we disagree. Yeah, that's my point.

That's completely fine. But the fact that it was so triggering to say have some— But if we talk about those people's humanity, then nobody wants to hear it, right? It's only the humanity of people from Venezuela, not from America. That's not true. Yes, it is true. Yes. The thing I'm pointing out is she made this really basic point about the humanity of people who are LGBT or the people who are migrants.

And it caused them to be so upset. Why? Why is it not okay to think about those people's humanity? Why is it cringe? Because we see it for what it is. Why is it not okay to think about those people's humanity? Why is it cringe? Because we see it for what it is. Why is it something that should be filled with content? Why does it trigger all of this rage? People should be viewed with humanity, including, yes, the victims of any sort manner of crimes and their families, etc.

Of course they should be seen as human beings and treated with humanity. And, you know, throughout history, that actually has been a radical view. That is part of what was radical about the original teachings of Christianity. And to see it be so enraging to have someone just say, hey, have some compassion. I just think it's interesting. I just think it's interesting. I think we understand the point that you're trying to make, which is that right-winger Christian nationalists and all those people are hypocrites, which I don't even disagree with. That's part of the thing.

I want an actual separation of church and state. The point is, is all of us can read between the lines now in America. When certain things are said, like, oh, please don't forget. And by the way, she was making an explicitly political point. These are the people who wash our dishes. These are the people who whatever. Is that untrue? What she's trying to say is don't deport them, right?

Was that we should consider that their role is so important and not all the people who just voted democratically for a guy named Donald Trump to mass deport because they don't agree with this bishop lady's view of the world. But what I don't understand, I understand you disagree with her. Okay. What I don't understand is why it's so enraging. Like, why even, she didn't say don't deport them. Well, I'm not getting enraged at her. I mean, I guess some other Christians are. They clearly are. I mean, they clearly are.

Like, this triggered a whole mountain of Trump waiting, blah, blah, blah. Because people don't want to see the bastardization of their faith. No, because. That's what they don't want. But that's, Trump is not, he doesn't care about this. Yes, I agree. That's one of the things I appreciate most about him, actually. I think it's because in order, like, a core part of the philosophy has become, like, not just the policies.

But you saw it with, for example, there was that video going around of the woman who had her CBP1 app appointment canceled. And she was bereft, right? And this is not someone who was trying to cross the border illegally. This was someone who was trying to go through the process that was set up by the United States government. And maybe you think she deserves a place in this society. And maybe you don't. But this is a human being, right, who is clearly going through it. And just devastated when 20 minutes before her CBP1 appointment, it's canceled.

And the reaction from the right is like glee and delight in her pain. Okay. That's not true, first of all. It is very true. I think you're trying to make Twitter comments into real. I don't think that that's true. Is Libs of TikTok an influential voice on the right? Sure. But is she the only person on the right? No.

Yes, but Sagar, there's a significant, and it's the same energy. We can play this game all day long. It's the same energy here of you can have compassion for migrants and also say, you know what, they don't have a claim on our society. And it's unfortunate, but we have limited resources and we have a border. But I see this as a human being. You can have that approach. But I think there is such a strain of dehumanization that is just like, you know, glee at seeing people's appointments canceled. Just horror that anyone would ask you to have compassion for migrants who are here. And again, to me, that's like, I think that's a very

troubling trend. I find that disturbing. See, I will flip it around and say there's, what compassion have I ever seen except for complete ignoring of the crimes of people who are here illegally? The response is always like, oh, but the natal born population commits more crimes. Actually, it's like, okay, so the people who are not supposed to be here also commit crime. And I don't see any compassion for the people who have been killed by them or affected by them or victims of migrant crime. You can pay lip service to it. But in reality, when has there ever been a concerted— Give me a single example of someone dehumanizing Lake and Riley and her family.

What do you mean by dehumanizing? I mean, so like expressing glee at them. Well, it's actually worse. They just ignore it and pretend it doesn't exist. That would be the equivalent response would be glee that this person was murdered in a horrific way and that her family is suffering. That would be the equivalent response. No, I haven't seen that. I have not seen that from anyone. Ignoring, pretending, and obfuscating crime of illegal immigrants is the de facto same thing, which is that they deserve to be here. They're actual citizens. They have just as rights as many of us, which they don't.

And the point is, is that all of this is about policy at the end of the day. The bishop was making a political point. So let's move to that. Okay, she's a bishop. Why does that make you so mad that she has a view of the Bible that includes humanity for immigrants? Why does that make you so mad? Because she's using the teachings to inform a political message. That's the problem. And again, I'm actually consistent on this. I don't believe in the political church. I think

all of these people should have to pay taxes. I don't like all of this Christian nationalism nonsense, which perverts our foreign policy and others. I am a through and through actual nationalist. So in a way, you're arguing with somebody who really doesn't share or like any of this crap that happens in the political coalition. What I'm saying clearly is that it is obvious that the compassion and all that has actual policy implications so whenever I was like please you know passion people as

human beings yes no has political yeah but it means oh actually hormone treatments for children are like 12 that's very compassionate values based you know decisions which can stem from religious convictions, of course, that has political implications. Of course it does. If people want to use their teachings to inform their vote, you do as you please, I will continue to do as I please. But the problem that it always comes back to, again, is that compassion is bastardized, politicized, and used for all of this to push explicitly political agendas, which are now counter both to my belief and clearly at least some portion and large belief of the entire country. Compassion is contrary to your beliefs.

No, not compassion. It's being used as a cloak, again, to encourage the transition of children and say, oh, nothing wrong with that, to encourage illegal immigration or mass migration. And to just say these people are actually better than us. It's amazing. You have no smoke for the right when compassion for Lakin Riley and her family is used to effectuate a political outcome. I mean, literally the bill is named after her. Yes. Isn't that a weaponization of compassion for political ends?

But what's the difference between those two? One's a U.S. citizen and one's not a U.S. citizen, right? I care about country. But Sagar, you have no problem when compassion is weaponized for a political end you happen to support. No, that's— But when a basic message of compassion, highly consistent with the teachings of Jesus Christ, is preached, it's like hair on fire meltdown. Because it's a global, because it's contrary to the national ideal. It's not about compassion. It's about using Lake and Raleigh as an example for the dangers of illegal immigration. That's what it's about. It's not about, quote unquote,

and by the way, again, my value system is that I believe the United States should only look out for its own interests. Those include U.S. citizens. So, yes, it's very annoying when this Christian globalist type of language is used to say, actually, the earth is flat. We're all exactly the same. And that transcends all borders, and that's why the border exists, should not exist. That's why the border has this. She did not say any of that. She didn't say any of that. When people go to the... The right is also, oh my God, free speech and stop canceling, and oh, you guys are so triggered by us,

blah, blah, blah. Of course, you've got a member of Congress who said she should be deported. You had that dude on Fox News who was like, she should never be able to preach again. Of course they want to cancel her. That's the gist of the reaction. The one member of Congress says something stupid. Am I supposed to sit here and take everything seriously? He's a member of Congress. AOC says as the policy of the Democratic Party.

No, and that would be stupid if I did. So let's just not extrapolate this into some major cancellation campaign. They're upset about what the lady said because it strikes at the core. But why? Again, I've explained it a million times. I just, the idea that it would be so offensive to say these are human beings and have compassion for them. I just don't, I just, I cannot understand that. I think that you're desperate to understand. I think you're desperate to think that everybody who's against immigration does not have compassion, and it's not true. The point is, is that we see – Then why is this so offensive?

Because we see resources as finite, and when messages are put out to psyop the American people into thinking that those resources that are a very finite amount to be able to distribute it to our public should then be transcended by this humanistic belief is basically one that has been the de facto migration policy now of the Democratic Party and of the bipartisan establishment for the last 25 years. We are able to distinguish clearly that messages like this, with the tone and the delivery, are very obviously have policy implications, which we totally disagree with.

Hence, we criticize them. It's not about the language of compassion. And by the way, again, she selectively decides which groups to have, quote unquote, compassion for illegal immigrants and what did she say? Gay and transgender children. We know what's going on. Like then the reason why that that happened is because it actually wasn't an all-encompassing message for all Americans or others. It's these select groups who they decide have been more victimized than everybody else and actually deserve special status and thus are actually better than us in some ways.

You're like reading a million things. You're reading a million things into it too. To be honest with you, I think what's going on is that, I mean, the teaching, especially with regards to immigrants in the Bible, it is, again, I'm not a Bible expert, but it is one of the more consistent teachings that there is. Not to, you know, not to dismiss, not to be cruel, to have, treat them with humanity and justice and compassion. And so I think for people who are Christians and who hold themselves out as that being a core part of their identity, to have that clear-cut message from the Bible rub up against their political views in a way that's uncomfortable,

I think that's what's created this mass backlash reaction. But like I said, I just think, I just find it interesting, the response to what I think is a very mild and commonly held view that people are human. I see how you get there because I know it's very comfortable with your worldview. And to those people, I would say you should be an American first, and then you can decide in terms of your religion. But in terms of your voting and what's actually good for the country, your teachings and all of that, you can inform your vote. But please don't try and impose your bullshit on the rest of us.

How does she try to impose her bullshit? She just expressed a view, Sagar. Why does that make you mad that she expressed a view? She's allowed to. I disagree with the view. Okay, but that's fine. That's fine to disagree with the view that people should be treated with compassion. I just think this is ridiculous, considering how if there was some preacher who was preaching against gays and transgender and all that, I'm pretty sure what smoke you would have for that person.

Especially if they were influential and they did it to Joe Biden. Joe Biden, by the way, our first Catholic president. I mean, completely, he believes in abortion, right? If a Catholic, what, Cardinal Dolan or other, took the podium, whatever it's called, the lectern, is that what it is, and lectured at the president and Nancy Pelosi, didn't he refuse them, what was it? Communion. Yeah, that was a big scandal. So this is what I mean. So whenever it's done against Democratic politicians, I'm not hearing so much concern, even though that's consistent with theirs. Whatever Jesus says and who you want to run your country, do that in the Vatican or Italy or whatever. That has nothing to do with us.

So I see plenty whenever cardinals and the Catholic Church and all of them lecture Democratic politicians who are allegedly Catholic. The Democrats get mad and people attack them, et cetera. This is just simply the same reaction. I don't think it's all that different. The difference is that you just agree with this lady and you disagree with the cardinal or the Catholic church. So that's where you're seeing all the things. Like I could say the same, like, oh, he's just going off the teachings of Jesus. That's the teachings of the Catholic church. You know, why should everybody be so upset about that? And they're like, oh, because we agree with people have the right to choose. It's like, okay, fine. So there's a

difference between the Catholic teaching when they lecture at a politician and then how that politician behaves with respect to government policy of the United States. Like there's three separate realms. I'm not angry with her in the way that I think that you're trying to portray it. What I'm angry at is this idea

that this is some completely non-political ideology and it is often weaponized. So is Laura Ingram a hypocrite? Yes, of course, because I guarantee you she's going to have people on who are hardcore Christian to justify being pro-life or abortion. I'm not leaving these people off the hook. And I despise much of the Christian nationalist right which forces people like Brian Mast and others to declare allegiance to a foreign country over our own. These are obviously very natural tensions, which people – go roll the tape on me and Brian Mast or any of these folks. I think it's crazy. But that's my point is that it shouldn't have influence on our finite actual policy decisions as Americans.

And, I mean, I don't see why it's difficult to understand then how we can all read between the lines. I mean, I could flip her. If I just only start talking about compassion for the victims of crimes of illegal immigrants, what am I trying to say, people? What am I trying to say? Right. But you're fine with that. That you're fine with. No. That you're fine with. But I mean, that, but that, that's, well, I'll just, we can

finish with this, but she didn't actually call for any specific policy. Yeah. Cause that would be a violation of her 501c2. All she said is have mercy on people who are fearful right now. And, you know, these are groups that are in fact, they are in fact fearful right now. And, you know, these are groups that are, in fact, they are, in fact, fearful right now. And, you know, I don't think that that is outrageous. I don't think that should make people mad. I don't think that, I don't think that trying to see each other's humanity. Yeah, that is the core of, you know, how I believe we should operate in the world. And I do think that that can lead you to different conclusions on, there are a lot of balances that you have to strike in the political realm. But to me, being guided by seeing everybody first and foremost as a human being, like, I don't think

that that's outrageous. I don't think that should make you angry. I don't think that that is, you know, the ravings of a lunatic. I don't think you should be deported for having those views, et cetera, but that's just me. It sounds like you found Jesus, Crystal. You should go, you should attend her service. It's here in Washington. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight loss camps for kids,

promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment

and re-examining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind VoiceOver, the movement that exploded in 2024. VoiceOver is about understanding yourself

outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover, to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together.

How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high. And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to Boy Sober on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part?

Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper. And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died.

I'm like thanking you. But then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat coming June 19th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. At the same time, I wanted to give you guys all

some inside information. There is a huge war being waged right now here in Washington, D.C. against Steve Witkoff, President Trump's special envoy to the Middle East, who successfully negotiated the Gaza ceasefire, but also multiple other appointees to the Pentagon who completely disagree with the idea of going to war with Iran, specifically regime change. So we're going to start off with Steve Witkoff,

the war against him, and then I'm going to explain some of the whisper campaign, the allegations, and some of the individuals who are behind all of this. What really kicked things off was Steve Witkoff's recent interview with Fox News, where he had the audacity to suggest that actually he wants to pursue the phase two part of the ceasefire deal, and that he was willing to negotiate with Hamas or anyone to achieve this outcome. Here's what Steve had to say. I wanted to ask you about Hamas. Apparently, they told the New York Times, we are prepared for a dialogue with America and achieving understandings on everything. How do you see that? Well, I think it's good if it's accurate. I think we were able to demonstrate that President Trump's

policies, peace through strength, they work. Everybody listens. I said, you've got to look at the tweet, look at the truth, look at what he said. The words speak for itself. He expects a hostage release. Remember, we were working. We had nothing to do with the mathematics behind the prisoner release and the hostage release. That was set probably, I don't know, 11, 12 months ago. And our job was to speed up the process because it felt like it had bogged down. And I'm actually going to be going over to Israel. I'm going to be a part of an inspection team at the Nezarene Corridor and also at the Philadelphia Corridor. We have to make sure that the implementation goes well,

because if it goes well, we'll get into phase two, and we're going to get a lot more live bodies out. And I think that that is what the president's directive to me and everybody else working in the American government on this, that's his directive, and that's what we're going to do. We needed to show people that we could stop the violence and we could have conversation and dialogue. And so this is the beginning of that and hopefully everything over there can be settled in that way.

So, Crystal, that was his crime. His crime is that he's like, yeah, I'll talk to him, Mas. That was it. That was enough to set them off. So let me give you an example. Let's put this up there on the screen. Here's a reaction from Eitan Fishberger. He says, in just one interview, Trump's Middle East envoy manages to express a willingness to, quote, reach understandings about everything with Hamas, admits that he and Trump's team didn't even try to get any additional hostages out. What's he talking about there? I'm not really sure about that one. And says,

fawns over the Qatari leadership again. Now, what has basically happened is this. There is now a narrative being spun here in DC that Steve Witkoff is an agent of the Qatari government. Now, why I find this, including attacking Steve Witkoff's kids, again, his crime is negotiating a ceasefire. His real crime is forcing Bebe to work on Shabbat and actually getting this deal done. Let's just all be honest about what's happening. So my challenge to the neocon people, I know we're going to watch this, is this. You guys want to have an honest conversation about foreign influence and people being bought by whom? Let's go. Let's go because I know where all of your funding comes from. It's all public. I know many of you

individuals personally. Who do you think that they're campaigning to replace Steve Witkoff? Jared Kushner. Oh, the guy who's a billionaire because of Saudi Arabia. And you don't have any problem with that, right? Why? Because he's pro-Israel or more pro-Israel apparently than Steve Witkoff, and he'll just give Bibi whatever he wants.

So they're full of shit whenever it comes to the criticisms of Steve Witkoff and his ties or whatever to the Qatari government. And, you know, at this point, I don't even care. All I want is to see peace in the region, which clearly Witkoff and the people I've spoken to who have spoken to those who are involved in this process are very impressed by him and believe that he is committed to actually trying to get phase two through. Now, a lot of this is going to be up to Donald Trump. And of course, there will be massive pushback here by the Israeli government. But it actually goes a level deeper than this, which is really important. And let's put this next one up here. This is Jewish Insider. This is a publication which is run basically as a laundering of a lot of neocon thought. And they write here, pro-Israel Republicans alarmed over Trump's Defense Department appointee. Now, the person

they're talking about here is a guy named Mike D'Amino. He's been tapped as the Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defense for the Middle East. Mike D'Amino is a person who had the audacity to suggest, Crystal, that regime change in Iran would be a bad idea. And actually he articulated himself incredibly well in interviews like on the Glenn Greenwald program or on Dave DeCamp's show on YouTube. Any of you can go and watch and listen to his words himself. We're not talking about an extremist. We're actually talking about somebody whose previous experience on the ground and involvement in the region convinced him that America's ability to compel regime change and launching adventures in the Middle East, which he says have little strategic interest to America, that's his actual crime. And so what we're watching is a laundering of a major whisper campaign against a guy like

Mike D'Amino. We are watching a new attack that's being launched today, and I'll get into that in a little bit. But just look at, you know, Witkoff, all he does is just say, hey, you guys need to agree to this deal that you've already agreed to back in May. And that is alone. He is now the target of the Israeli media and of all of their allies here in Washington, D.C., including Nikki Haley and some very, very prominent people behind the scenes. Nothing makes people here more angry than when you say, I'm going to talk to our adversary. You're right. You're absolutely right. You will get uniform outrage.

And it's just, it's such posturing. Like, listen, the reality is, and this is why Bibi didn't want to end the war. This is why Smotrich, I mean, they're very upfront about their goals. But because, you know, when you actually have a ceasefire, even a temporary one, as of now, people have to start to grapple with the realities that you didn't destroy Hamas. Very likely Hamas is going to continue to be in government because guess what? You didn't come up with any sort of a political solution that would lead in a different direction. And there is no number of guns and bombs that is going to solve this problem, period, end of story. But you can live in that fantasy. We're never going to

have to talk to Hamas and they're going to be defeated and they're just, you know, evil point blank, end of story, and you could never even speak with them. You can live in that fantasy until you actually try to have some sort of a resolution. And so, yeah, he committed the cardinal sin of being like, you know, I actually want to go to Gaza, and Hamas said they would talk, and I think we should do that. Well, let's get into that. Think about even like, you know, Scahill, who goes and interviews these guys because, hey, they're a party to this conflict. And maybe we should know what their thoughts are and what their thought process is and what their ideology is. The amount of outrage over even just a journalist going and interviewing them is preposterous. I mean, listen, with regard to how all of this pans out, we'll see. Because already, obviously, you're seeing, you know, a massive onslaught and lots of killing in the West Bank.

I just saw electricity's been shut off in massive parts of the West Bank, according to Dropsite News. There's all kinds of reportings about the quote-unquote goodie bag that Trump and Witkoff are giving to Israel. So what are the costs of that? Bibi's promising that he's going to return to the full-on war. Trump is saying, like, well, that's, you know, probably going to Israel. So what are the costs of that? Bibi's promising that he's going to return to the full on war. Trump is saying like, well, that's, you know, probably going to happen. So we'll see. But yeah, I think it is very telling just the amount of absolute rage at Wyckoff. It's very good that he's Jewish. I'll just say that. It's really gives him at least a little, I'm sure he's getting all of the like self-hating Jew and all of that sort of stuff, but it's a little bit harder

to just throw the anti-Semite label at someone who is himself Jewish. Steve Witkoff is now one of the most successful diplomats on the Israel-Palestine issue in modern history. Like that's what they are attacking him. Very low bar. Okay, but that's my point. Even that is enough to be destroyed. And they're going after him like you would not believe. Let's put this up there on the screen. For example, this is Mark Levin. By the way, this was retweeted by Ben Shapiro. It says, say what?

Witkoff said it's good if the U.S. talks directly with Hamas? Where's the foreign policy 18? Don't we have a new Secretary of State just confirmed unanimously by the Senate? Even Blinken didn't suggest this. Hamas committed unimaginable acts of genocide. Now we are willing to talk to them to better understand them? Question. Look, here's the thing.

And this is the straw man. They're like, oh, he says he wants to talk with Hamas. Steve Witkoff actually is trying to get hostages out, right? Yeah. So who's holding the hostages? That's right. Oh, right. So we're not supposed to talk to Hamas.

But also the criticism of Witkoff is he's not supposed to get all the hostages out. So which is it, right? So it's all bullshit, actually, what this is all about. His real crime, again, is putting a little bit of pressure on the Israelis. Let's go to the next one, please, from Haaretz. It's also this one. He's going to visit Gaza as part of an inspection team, right? The thing is, is that they want to keep America at arm's length and not be involved in any of this. They don't want them to enforce the terms. They don't want them to be involved. And the reason why I'm focusing so hard on Witkoff is that if he gets fired, if he gets reined in or any of that, it's over. Not just in terms of the Israel-Palestine issue, but the Iran issue is the most important one here. What broke out this morning, again, from Jewish Insider, this like neocon rag, is they're publishing this about a person like my friend, Elbridge Colby. They say, in addition to Domino, another ally of Caldwell's, there's a person in the interview, Elbridge Colby has been tapped as the Undersecretary of Defense for Policy. Even as his sanguine view of Iran and its nuclear ambitions, which he sees as less urgent threat to America's interest than China, has long been a source of contention in Republican

foreign policy circles. And now they write this with a straight face. Perhaps most controversially, Colby has opposed direct military action against the Islamic Republic. Perhaps most controversial. Controversial to whom, I ask, Jewish insider? Incredible belt. Please tell us who it's controversial to. And do you want to know who it's controversial to? The person that they quote underneath that to criticize Domino, Elbridge, Colby, and Caldwell is Dick Cheney's Middle East advisor. That's who they quote.

Yeah, it would be controversial to that person, wouldn't it? Now, you know, there's a lot of people who watch this show who voted for Donald Trump. There's a lot of people who watch this show who we even interviewed who voted for AOC and for Donald Trump. And one of the main reasons that he did is a departure from the foreign policy consensus. Now, Trump has failed them many times in many different ways. But perhaps on this one, at least through the idea of personnel is policy. We all need to come together and to actually put pressure on the Trump administration and the outside to make sure that these people do not succeed. Because if Mike Domeno gets fired, if Elbridge Colby doesn't get

through, you don't have a chance in hell at getting even 5%. And the reason why I know this is that in the first Trump administration, the battle for any America first policy was lost on day 23 when Mike Flynn was fired. Now, Flynn was an idiot. Don't get me wrong. But Flynn actually believed in what Trump did. And more importantly, a lot of the people who worked for Mike Flynn, who were genuinely America first, all of them were forced out by H.R. McMaster. And H.R. McMaster did what? He ramped up the troops in Afghanistan. He encouraged all the Soleimani striking. He encouraged all these weapons to Ukraine. Now, listen, Trump is culpable, of course. I'm not going to put him off the hook. He agreed to do all of this, but he's a malleable guy according to the people around him. So if you want to play the game, we have to protect these people because otherwise it's game over.

Like, look, listen to them very clearly. They say that controversial, the controversy around this is to oppose war with Iran. They're telling us what they want us to do. They want to invade and impose regime change on this country. And so it's my, you know, what I'm trying to do is to expose them, but also to try and assemble some people who we need to like put pressure on the administration if we actually want to see this change. Because nothing can destroy your country and its wealth and its people more than a bad decision in the war, as we saw with Iraq. It destroyed us. And just to tie it all together, and I know people know this,

but Israel has long wanted to drag us in directly to a war with Iran. You'll recall Bibi Netanyahu famously making a trip here during the Obama administration to oppose the JCPOA. That was the Iranian nuclear deal. This would be a key priority for major Donald Trump donors like Mary Mad, who was seated right there in the dais behind him and who seemed to really get her picks in terms of a lot of the high-profile cabinet-level names who all had very consistent hawkish views with regard to Iran. And, you know, some of them are just like total end times, you know, pro-Israel fanatics like Mike Huckabee, Elise Stefanik. Rubio has been a consistent hawk with regard to Iran, et cetera. So, you know, these next layer down is kind of the next battle. And so, yeah, we'll see how it all plays out. I mean, one thing that is a little different now versus previously is,

you know, bipartisan administrations have really coddled the Saudi Arabians and been very cozy with them even long past the point of utility and political sense. And, you know, Saudi and Iran were very much, you know, arch rivals and at loggerheads, that has eased somewhat as they've made common cause during the Israeli genocide in Gaza. They've had some rapprochement actually brokered by the Chinese. So there is somewhat less hostility between those two nations, which means that even as top Trump priorities pursuing this, I think, wrongheaded, but we can get to that another day. Saudi normalization deal with Israel doesn't necessarily require the same, like, totally hawkish and adversarial approach to Iran. But there are very powerful parts of this Republican

coalition and of the Trump donor base that want the war with Iran, want the regime change, want one of the things that we gave Israel in exchange for this, at least temporary ceasefire, to be joining with them, or at least green-lighting attacks on Iranian nuclear facilities and those sorts of really escalatory actions. So anyway, a lot of question marks. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight-loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left.

In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're unpacking and investigating stories of mistreatment

and reexamining the culture of fatphobia that enabled a flawed system to continue for so long. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. Voiceover is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's more than personal. It's

political, it's societal, and at times, it's far from what I originally intended it to be. These days, I'm interested in expanding what it means to be voiceover, to make it customizable for anyone who feels the need to explore their relationship to relationships. I'm talking to a lot of people who will help us think about how we love each other. It's a very, very normal experience to have times where a relationship is prioritizing other parts of that relationship that aren't being naked together. How we love our family. I've spent a lifetime trying to get my mother to love me, but the price is too high.

And how we love ourselves. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The summer of 1993 was

one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper. And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died. I'm like thanking you. But then I see my son's not moving.

No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat coming June 19th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, sticking with foreign policy, some big developments on the Russia and Ukraine front. Let's put this up there on the screen from President Trump. I'm not looking to hurt Russia. I love the Russian people and always had a very good relationship with President Putin. And this despite the Russia, Russia, Russia hoax. We must never forget Russia helped us win the Second World War, losing almost 60 million lives in the process. All that being said, I'm

going to do Russia, whose economy is failing, and President Putin a very big favor. Settle now and stop this ridiculous war. It's only going to get worse if we don't make a deal, and soon I will have no choice but to put high levels of taxes, tariffs, and sanctions on anything being sold by Russia to the United States and various other participating countries. Let's get this war, which would never have started if I were president, over with. We can do it the easy way or the hard way. And the easy way is always better. It's time to make a deal. No more lives should be lost, he declares here. Well, this is all part of a big question mark now around Russia and Ukraine, and specifically also with Donald Trump revealing actually in the Oval Office the number of real dead in the war. So he gave this away. Actually,

counterpoint's covered yesterday. We're going to play it again. For all of you, let's take a listen. Could be very soon. And you've talked a bit about Ukraine and Russia, but how long do you think it would take to end that conflict? I have to speak to President Putin. We're going to have to find out. He can't be thrilled. He's not doing so well.

I mean, he's grinding it out, but most people thought that war would have been over in about one week. And now you're into three years, right? So he can't be thrilled. It's not making him look very good. Now, eventually, you know, I mean, it's a big machine,

so things will happen. But I think you'd be very well off to end that war. We have numbers that almost a million Russian soldiers have been killed. About 700,000 Ukrainian soldiers are killed. Russia is bigger. They have more soldiers to lose. But that's no way to run a country. Let's think about that. We're talking about well over, what, 1.5 million who were killed. Now, I don't know if he's confusing casualties

or the number of killed, but even if it's the number of casualties, I mean, that's insane. Those are like World War I numbers for the battle, which are unseen in modern warfare. So this shows a couple of things. First, it's good. I think it's great that Trump wants to end the war and he's all about, quote unquote, making a deal. The problem is, is I think, Crystal, he's really overestimating the leverage that the United States

has here. Our economies are as bifurcated as it gets. They don't sell us very much. There's not much left to tariff. There's nothing really left that they even export to continue the war. The other problem of Trump's presumption is he's like, well, Russia, they're losing a lot of people. Putin doesn't care. He does not care that 800,000 people have been killed. He will sacrifice 1.5 million if he wants to. I mean, it's a much larger population than Ukraine. So it's all, I mean, just as a percent, like it's so grim to say this, but it's a lower consequence for the Russian nation than it is for the Ukrainians. I was just

reading, apparently the Kremlin spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov, indicated that Moscow was ready for an equal and mutually respectful dialogue, but was sort of like unimpressed with the threats for more sanctions. They said it didn't really sound like anything particularly new. But while we don't have as much leverage with the Russians, because they already are the most sanctioned country on the entire planet and are already living and dealing with that, not that there hasn't been any economic hardship, but they've been able to cope. The country we do have leverage with is Ukraine. Obviously, we have a lot of leverage with Ukraine. We can basically, I mean, we can.

We can call this out. They're completely dependent on our funding and our weapon shipment and our diplomatic support and all of that. So, you know, it seems to me, who knows what Trump is doing behind the scenes and what his real plans are, blah, blah, blah. Who knows if he even knows? But it seems to me that the place

where the leverage really needs to be applied is with our own ally, where we actually have the leverage versus additional, you really think additional sanctions on Russia are going to significantly move the needle? I'm sorry, I just don't think that at this point. No, I don't think so. I mean, I'm wondering if some of this is a psyop to get the Ukrainians to see that we are putting pressure on Russia when we also pressure them behind the scenes? I have no idea. Trump is saying that he will meet with Putin and Zelensky. I think he literally said anytime he's willing to do it if they want to talk. Now, Zelensky, though, at Davos is also making a lot of demands. Let's put this up there on the screen. He says the U.S. must be part of a Ukraine peacekeeping force. He wants U.S. troops to be part of peacekeeping in Ukraine.

He says it can't be without the United States, even if some European friends think it can be. No, it can't be. Nobody will risk without the United States. So his peace condition is that we have to occupy his country. I don't know that he's wrong, though. I mean, no part of me wants this, but I think he might be right that if you're going to have some sort of a maintain the peace kind of a ground force, I doubt that the Europeans could or would do it on their own. Yeah, exactly, which is why the whole thing is untenable. It's terrible.

So let's just sign a deal and let's just convince the Russians it's not in their best interest. And they've eventually passed that. And we'll figure it out then. But, you know, the current situation is equally as bad and as untenable. Over a million people are dead in the war. You know, and like you said, proportionality is very important here. This is not a big country. They have lost, apparently to them, three

generations now of men. So, you know, 18 to 25, or 18, I think it's 18 to 25-year-old men, are not eligible for the draft. If you're 25 and up, the good chances are you've been drafted and into combat. And that's why the average age of their military is, what, some 40 or 50 years old? Nobody even really knows the data. But they're running out of people at a basic level. And the depopulation already of their country would take them multiple generations just to replace, let alone if they continue this war and inevitably do need to draft 18 to 25 years, then yeah, you're going to find yourself like the Soviet Union did fighting the Nazis. Everyone born in like 1920 to 1925, who was draft age, was just dead,

you know, by the end of the war. It was horrible. It was a disaster. Terrible. Yeah, I was just looking at the population numbers. Ukraine, the latest, it says 37 million. And Russia is 144 million. So, I mean, it's just vastly larger population, vastly more, you know, resources endemic to the country. So, it's long been a really unbalanced situation. And, you know, Trump had promised, like, he was going to have this all wrapped up before he even got into office. That was always totally preposterous. And it was disconcerting that it didn't get mentioned at all on Inauguration Day. And I think it's still very – I think he recognizes, like, this is not going to be easy to deal with. And the Zelensky message at the World Economic Forum of, like, oh, we're going to need U.S. peace groups, that's an indication of how difficult it ever is to wrap up one of these conflicts and how frequently unpopular

it ends up being. Because if we're being honest, American people are kind of like tuned down to this conflict at this point. Yes, that's right. It's on the back burner. It's not causing Trump any like real political headaches. It's a lot dicier, as Biden found out when he withdrew from Afghanistan, to actually end the conflict and have to deal with the aftermath and the messiness and the loss of territory and all of that and the media onslaught, which will undoubtedly come. So, yeah, we'll see. We'll see where this goes. But a lot of mixed, I'd say, signals from Trump at this point. Absolutely. You're absolutely right. Okay, guys, we talk too much here, as usual. So we'll cover the meta story on Monday. And yeah, we'll see you all then

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