Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 12/9/23: COVID, TRUMP, Q-ANON: Evangelical Extremism with Tim Alberta

Episode Date: December 9, 2023

Krystal and Saagar are joined by author Tim Alberta to talk about his new book The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism.Check out Tim's Book here: https://www.amazon.com/Kingdom-Power-Glory-Evangelicals-Extremism/dp/006322688X To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. DNA test proves he is not the father. Now I'm taking the inheritance. Wait a minute, John. Who's not the father? and subscribe today. his irresponsible son, but I have DNA proof that could get the money back. Hold up. They could lose their family and millions of dollars? Yep. Find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kasson, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi. We dive

into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There are so many stories out there. And if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, guys. Ready or not, 2024 is here. And we here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. I'm going to have a link down in our description. Tim, it's great to see you, man.

Good to see you. Good to see you, Crystal. Thank you guys for having me. I'm enjoying it very much. I told you I'm about halfway through, I think. I appreciate it. I loved American Carnage, which was your first book? That was. It was a big one, but it was a great read. Tough act to follow. Well, I think you've

come through with this one, so give us a little bit of a synopsis why you decided to write the book. And it's not as big as American Carnage, but it's still, it's up there. What are you trying to convey to people about American evangelicals and their interaction with the political system? Yeah, I mean, so, you know, I was raised in the evangelical church. I'm still very much a practicing Christian, really have a strong relationship with Jesus. And in my just professional journey working in politics over the last almost 20 years, covering politics, I began to just sense this, just to feel a disillusionment with the ways in which the church was becoming ever more,

not just ever more political, but ever more sort of radicalized politically. And by the way, we have seen that not just in the evangelical right-wing church. We have seen that in the progressive left-wing church. This is my tradition. The white evangelical tradition is what I was born out of. Raised in the church. My dad was an evangelical minister. My mom worked on the staff.

So I grew up physically, literally, in the church. It was my home. It was my community. And I think for many of us, it's always a little uncomfortable to talk about your tribe, to air the dirty laundry, to sort of, you know, feel like you are giving ammunition to those on the outside. And so for a long time, I didn't do that. And I just sort of kept quiet. And I think over the last six, seven, eight years, and it's not just Trump, Trump looms large in all of this, of course, but there's a lot of things happening culturally and politically that just we're feeling it just it seemed to me that the church was beginning to lose sight of its true purpose, its true mission, its true calling in the culture, which is to evangelize.

It is to take the gospel of Jesus Christ to all the nations and it is to share that good news and to do it without erecting barriers to entry along the way. In other words, sort of replacing the biblical standard for why do we come to church with sort of a different standard of, well, hold on, who did you vote for? Did you get vaccinated? These other litmus tests that were suddenly keeping people from coming into church and learning about Jesus. And so that's ultimately why I wrote the book. Okay. You talk a little bit about how even that term evangelical came to mean less about your approach to the Bible or your approach to the faith and more, it was more of a cultural signifier than anything else. Talk a little bit about what were the specifics of that

cultural signifier and what were some of the major divides? I mean, Trump is the obvious one, but in terms of this kind of split that you identify in the church, what were some of the other major turning points? Yeah, it's a great question. I mean, so we saw, I'll never forget this moment. We saw in the 2016 Republican primary, and it was South Carolina voting. And it was when they did the exit polling, three quarters of all Republican voters self-identified in the exit polling, three quarters of all Republican voters self-identified in the exit polls as evangelicals. Oh, yeah, that's right. And it was this moment where I'm like, well, hold on a second. If everybody's an evangelical, then nobody's an evangelical, right? And we've seen some social science on this over the decades,

how this has sort of evolved, starting back 50 years ago with the moral majority. We don't need to do the whole history of this. But basically basically that term in a cultural context has taken on the meaning of effectively conservative white Republican. Rather than being a spiritual signifier, rather than speaking to any sort of theological doctrine, it's really speaking to partisan political identification. And my argument in the book is that that is profoundly damaging to the witness of Jesus Christ, who, last I checked, was not a registered Republican or a registered Democrat, for that matter. What we saw also during the Trump years, which was really interesting, and there's been some things written about this, some good social science research, we saw simultaneously a pretty good uptick in the number of Trump voters who self-identified to pollsters as evangelical, but also at the same time,

we saw a pretty rapid downturn in the number of those same people who attended church every week. So in other words, you had people identifying as evangelicals while they were going to church less and less. So there's a cultural phenomenon here. I'm not necessarily arguing that we jettison the term evangelical. I have many friends and family who I love who are deeply attached to the term. I understand why. But I also think we have to think critically, those of us inside the church who care about that mission of the church, as far as what that term means to the outside world. That's interesting.

So I grew up in College Station, Texas. I grew up in a lot of evangelicals, specifically Southern Baptists. And I'm curious, though, if you think they ever didn't consider themselves political. Because from my perspective, growing up around these people as an outsider, frequently being evangelized, I very much noticed how deeply involved in local, state, and national politics that the church was. Not only around abortion advocacy, but really tied to the presidency of George W. Bush. And the way I would ask them about it, too, really really in this way, and they would explain it to me. They're like, look, the Southern Baptist Convention itself exists because of a political act tracing all the way back to the Civil War and splits over segregation. And Jim Crow and American evangelism itself is separate from the way that it may be

interpreted in Europe and really evolved, you know, through a split on abolitionism and has always been tied directly to the American state, at the very least, not in power but trying to pressure it from the outside. So is it really all that different in history? Like what do you make of kind of what I'm saying? I mean, listen, your observation is spot on, first of all. So I think the question here is really one of degree. Let's be clear. I think Christians, as with any other group, any other group of citizens, they have an obligation to be involved and engaged at a civic level. And they should try to make their voice heard in the public square. There's nothing wrong with that whatsoever. I think what I'm trying to detail in the book is the point at which

it crosses over from sort of a healthy engagement to an unhealthy engagement. And really not just in terms of sort of one's, you know, selling one's soul to Donald Trump or any of that sort of hyperbolic stuff. I think there are examples of that, obviously. to sort of pair conspiracy theories inside the church with the evangelizing, I should say, of the witness of Jesus Christ, that becomes very dangerous. So when you look at a lot of the polling over the last two years and you see that the folks who are most likely to believe that the election was stolen, the people who are most likely to believe in QAnon, the people who are most likely to buy into a couple of these different, you know, you call them conspiracy theories, call them fringe beliefs, whatever you want to say. They are white evangelicals

time and time and time again. We see that. I've seen it in my own community. The problem with that, aside from just the epistemological crisis that we're living through here as far as information, the problem with that is that in my view, and I just have to say this as clearly as I can, the death and resurrection of Jesus is not a conspiracy theory. And if you as a Christian are, and I know Christians like this, if you are simultaneously proselytizing for Jesus Christ and proselytizing for QAnon, you are sapping the gospel of its credibility fundamentally. So I do think that that is one of the big differences. You're absolutely right that in many ways the modern

American evangelical movement dating back at least 50 or 60 years has been in many ways political. I also think, interestingly, if you look at sort of the paragon of evangelicalism, Billy Graham, who of course prayed over every American president, had these deep relationships with Nixon and others. Billy Graham, late in his life, gave this sort of contrition-laden confessional where he talked about how, in retrospect, it was a great regret and how he really felt like he had undermined in some way the witness of Jesus Christ because of his political attachments. So I just think the book, if nothing else, it's a call to Christians to be very careful and very discerning. It's not to not

be engaged politically. It's not to try to make your voice heard. Those things are fine. But an over-realized sense of where your citizenship is, we are called as Christians to be citizens of a kingdom that is not of this world, as Jesus said. And if you become so attached and find all of your hope and your purpose and tie all of your self-determination to political activity in this world, you begin to lose sight of the next. Okay. So Tim, the book is very personal, clearly. And like I said, I really appreciate it. It's challenged me in a number of ways. And I'm going to try to ask this as a non-believer very delicately. But, you know, what I see you tracking here is effectively a very deep-seated tribal identity that leads inevitably to this sort of like us versus them mentality, which also makes it very easy to justify things which would otherwise be unjustifiable. And I see

this, you know, again, coming from a non-believer perspective as effectively a feature rather than a bug of fervent religiosity. And I'll give you a non-American, you know, example of this. You have these settlers right now, Jewish settlers in the West Bank, who really believe they are like doing God's work when they are murdering Palestinians and kicking them off of their land. So, you know, what's your reaction to that, that when you have this sort of, you know, fundamentalist, fervent religiosity, this is the direction that it frequently tends to go in, in terms of tribalism, us versus them, and, you know, quote unquote, good people

justifying things that should not really be justified. I'm so glad you asked, Crystal. I mean, so I have a chapter in the book. You probably haven't gotten there until later in the book, but probably my favorite chapter in the whole book, even though it's not really sexy from a material standpoint, where I'm talking with scholars about sort of the history of when religious justification leads to great crimes against humanity. And we've seen this, you know, throughout the centuries, this is nothing new. I mean, and we've seen it with Christianity, we've seen it with Islam, we've seen it with other faith traditions. I think your question is absolutely appropriate. And part of the reason, again, that I'm writing the book is to try to warn about this, that when religious identity properly realized and rooted in, specific to the Christian tradition, rooted in Jesus' teachings, that you love your enemy and you pray for those who persecute you and you turn the other cheek.

There's something fundamentally so distinct and countercultural about the teachings of Jesus. There is zero justification for violence found anywhere in the New Testament. I mean, the Apostle Paul is locked up and being beaten, and he's singing hymns and talking about how he's praying to convert the guards who are abusing him. Peter, who was Jesus' right-hand disciple, he's writing his epistles from Rome, locked up under brutal Roman occupation in the first century as Christians were treated terribly there. And he's telling them that your suffering brings you closer to Jesus and you will be judged by how you treat those who are abusing you. So you can find a twisted religious justification for violence and for identitarian conflict if you are looking for it. But what I'm trying to emphasize in the

book is that if those of us who are truly followers of Jesus, we are called to something greater. And I share your concerns with any religion that is twisted and used to justify that sort of conflict. I really do. It's a huge problem. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight-loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series, we're

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hearing now since 2016, how can you support a adulterer or somebody who's obviously doesn't believe in God? And they're like, look, we're like any other voters. We take what we can get. We believe abortion is literally murder. And this is the person who got it done for us. This is why we support Trump. What do you think about the practicality of evangelism when it intersects in politics and why so many do support Trump today? Well, yeah, look, I mean 2016 you view that in its own narrower context, right? There's this transactional relationship. It's easy to forget now, but you go back and look at 2016 and You know evangelicals white evangelicals were the softest supporters of Donald Trump

He he added Pence to the ticket and he released the Supreme Court list specifically to assuage the concerns of that group. And he went to New York and met with hundreds of them at a Marriott. I was there. And it was a hard sell. And he had Huckabee, and he had Franklin Graham and others vouching for him, Jerry Falwell Jr. They really had to do the hard sell. So that was this transactional relationship. I think how it's evolved, and this is really the psychological component of this is fascinating. I think many of these people, they are under no illusion about Trump's morality. They don't think that he's become born again, that there's some supernatural transformation of the man.

I think for many of them, and this is kind of a thematic backbone of the book, they believe that America is on its last legs, that Judeo-Christian America is on its last legs, that the secular culture is coming for them, and that if they don't do something about it, if they don't fight back, then they're going to lose this country. And they look at Donald Trump, and in some sense, even though on paper he's the exact wrong match for them because of his personal lifestyle and all these things. He's also actually the perfect match for them because he's not a Christian. He's not bound by their norms. He doesn't have to play by their rules. Mike Huckabee and others have given voice to this where they basically said, look, the barbarians are at the gates and we need a barbarian

to keep them at bay. And I think that that is sort of the justification that a lot of these folks have reached where they've said, listen, I'm horrified by the guy's behavior. I wince every time I hear him talk, but I'm so afraid of this country being overrun by people who are going to, you know, persecute. Look at COVID-19. They shut down our churches. You know, the secularism is on the march. They're coming for us. And I think, let me be clear, I think that's a very unhealthy approach for the Christian to take. We're told time and again throughout scripture, fear not. It's the most frequently cited command, Old Testament, New Testament, fear not. Like again, if you find your identity so wrapped up in America and in these sort of tribal identitarian movements,

you do start to lose sight of where your calling ultimately is. And so that fear, while I understand it, I also just want to warn against it. So when you say the barbarians are at the gates, who are the barbarians? Because this is one of the things you talk about in the book too. One of the heroes whose name I'm blanking on talks about being good losers, right?

That there's this sense that we're losing or we've lost and we have to be good losers. And I'm just looking at that and I'm like, what exactly are you losing? What have you lost? What has created this sense of just absolutely existential dread that again ends up, you know, justifying switching from decrying the immorality of Bill Clinton to just excusing literally anything that Donald Trump does? Well, I mean, look, this is this is the million dollar question. And, you know, some of this just comes back to the idea of like desperate times call for desperate measures,

right? You know, 20 or 30 years ago when Bill Clinton was carrying on with Monica Lewinsky, well, there was peace and prosperity and the country was still stable. So yeah, we could rebuke him. But now, you know, again, the barbarians are at the gates. Now, who are those barbarians? So if you think about some of these ascendant Christian nationalist movements that I document in the book, you don't have to have a, you know, poli-sci PhD to figure out when they say that we're going to reclaim America, we're going to restore America, like who are they reclaiming it from, right? Look, 50 or 60 years ago, this was a country that was 90% white. It was 95% Christian. Everybody went to church. You know, demographically, sociologically, it was a different

place, right? And so I think a lot of folks are invested, deeply invested in this idea that they need to take back this sort of idealized Christian America. There are any number of problems with that, but I think just at its core, demographically, statistically, that America isn't coming back. We are secularizing. We are diversifying. The person you mentioned is John Dixon. Yes. He's a professor at Wheaton College, and he's Australian, which gives him this fabulous perspective because Australia, just in the last couple of years, officially became statistically a post-Christian nation. Christians are now a minority in Australia. And we in the United States are tracking about 10 to 15 years behind Australia. So he gives this wonderful talk

at Wheaton, and I would invite people to try and find it online, where he says to his American Christian brethren, he says, you know, greetings from the future, my friends. Let me tell you about when you lose this status in society, this majority status, when you lose the commanding heights of society, that it is a good thing for Christians. Because if you look at Christianity dating back to Constantine, there's always been this kind of funny inverse relationship between the amount of social, cultural, political power that Christians have in a society and the health of Christianity in that society. In other words, when Christianity is at the margins, it tends to flourish because of the countercultural message. But when Christianity tries to dominate a culture through government and through culture wars, then its witness really sort of dies on the vine. And so when he talks about losing well,

the idea here is your witness to the world is so much more effective when they see you filled with grace and forgiveness and love for your neighbor, rather than this fear that I was describing earlier and this desire to dominate your neighbor because you feel like you're losing something. Yeah. Wow. That's really fascinating. My last question for you is about how you think this is going to operationalize. So Roe versus Wade, obviously, that was a longstanding want for the Catholic and evangelical community, but now it's done. Donald Trump has distinguished himself from the rest of the GOP field by not mentioning one of his signature accomplishments, and if anything, actually attacking many of the pro-life people who are more so than him in the Republican field.

Yet, I have not seen any data yet about diminishing evangelical support. So there's been a theorize I've seen from some folks who are in the pro-life community who are like, we're going to withhold our vote against Trump. Do you think that will actually happen at scale? And what do they make of him politically distancing himself from pro-life movement now? So as far as 2024 is concerned, this is the whole ball of wax. I really believe that because something that we haven't, I think we in the media, we just haven't paid enough attention to the fact that this is the first post Roe v. Wade presidential election. For 50 years, millions and millions of single issue pro-life voters have been mobilized in a presidential election around this idea of

abortion, but also of Supreme Court justices hanging in the balance. It was a federal issue. It has now been defederalized effectively. It is thrown back to the states. So the question for me, when I'm looking at evangelical support for Donald Trump, isn't necessarily the raw percentages. We've seen him, you know, according to which exit polling that you're looking at, he's typically winning between 75 and 80 percent of white evangelicals, which, by the way, is consistent with Republican nominees dating back decades. My expectation is that he will do that again. But in terms of raw numbers, could you see some significant chunk? And by significant chunk, I mean even like 2% or 3%, 4% or 5%. I mean, that would be enough.

Yeah, it would. Could you see some significant chunk of those single-issue pro-life voters decide, you know what? I can't make peace with voting for this man again. I also can't make peace with voting for Joe Biden because he's pro-choice and because of other issues that they might disagree with the Democrats on. Could you see them stay home? Could you see them leave the top of the ticket empty? Could you see them vote for a third party candidate? I think that that is a very real possibility. And I think that if you're in the Trump campaign right now, you should be deeply concerned about that. Yeah, because I mean, just

if you just look at the raw numbers here, there's no way he wins without the same turnout, the same showing from those voters in 16 and 20, if there's any meaningful drop-off, I don't see how the math works for him to win again. Good point. My last question for you, Tim, which is kind of a big one, but anyway, why are the cultural signifiers for evangelicals all on culture? Why is it abortion, when honestly what the Bible has to say about abortion is very ambiguous at best? Why is it on gay marriage? Why is it now on things like taking the vaccine or not? When there's so much more in the Bible, not that I'm an expert,

but on ministering to the poor and, you know, the immigrant, et cetera. Why isn't that the bleeding edge focus of this movement? And instead, instead it's all on like whatever the right wing cultural issue of the day is. It's a totally fair question. Let me say two things. Excuse me. I think first, what I would emphasize is that the abortion issue, for many of these folks, they don't view it as a political issue. They don't view it as a cultural issue.

They view it fundamentally as a moral, ethical, spiritual issue. That life is made in the image of God, that when Jesus said, render unto Caesar what is Caesar and to God's what is God's, many people miss the application of that. He's talking to a man in the crowd and he says, hold up that denarii, the Roman coin. He says, whose image is on it? It says Caesar's. Render unto Caesar, give back, because that coin has Caesar's image, but you have God's image on you.

So give that coin back to Caesar, but give yourself to God because you belong to God. So I think those in the pro-life community who are truly deeply invested in this as an ethical spiritual issue, I understand why they are so deeply invested in fighting there. I think your point about where is the concern for the orphan, for the widow, for the poor and the destitute, I mean, it is, I think, the simplest answer to it, Krista, and the honest answer to it is that those issues don't mobilize voters around election time. And I have spent years pressing people, and I do, as you'll see in certain parts of the book, putting that question in really uncomfortable ways to some of these leaders saying, listen, if in fact we're truly trying to be holistic Christians here, then why are we selectively choosing some of these biblical precepts instead of embracing the whole thing and letting the chips fall where they may? Because again, my concern is that we diminish the credibility of the witness of Jesus Christ if we are just cherry-picking

certain things when there are other teachings clearly coming through Scripture, Old Testament and New Testament, where we are taught to care for the stranger and the sojourner and to love our neighbor as ourselves. Like, if there is one command that Jesus is emphasizing again and again and again, love your neighbor as yourself. And I don't see a lot of that in the political system. I don't see it on the right. I don't see it on the left. And for those of us who profess to follow Jesus, I think it's really important to step back and reevaluate the totality of the message rather than, as you're saying, just pick the parts of it that can help us win an election. Wow. Really, really fascinating talking with you. Again, the book is The Kingdom,

the Power, and the Glory, American Evangelicals in the Age of Extremism. We're going to have a link down in the description, and we appreciate you joining us. Yeah. It's a great book, Tim. I'm really enjoying it. Thank you for, you know, I hope my questions were okay. Thank you so much for sharing with us. No, you guys are the best. Thank you for having me. No, thank you very much. We'll see you guys later. DNA test proves he is not the father. Now I'm taking the inheritance.

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Hold up. They could lose their family and millions of dollars? Yep. Find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. actually like a horror movie. Enter Camp Shame, an eight-part series examining the rise and fall of Camp Shane and the culture that fueled its decades-long success. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free

on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There are so many stories out there. And if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from

our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.