Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 1/6/24: Krystal BREAKS DOWN Israel Genocide Charge

Episode Date: January 6, 2024

Krystal breaks down the latest ICJ genocide charges against Israel. To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Hey guys, so this week on January 11th, hearings will begin at the International Court of Justice against Israel, who according to South Africa's complaint is committing genocide. South Africa submitted a detailed 84-page complaint explaining why they have gone forward with this case. And to be honest with you, when I originally saw this filing, I was heartened by it, but I also felt like the U.S. and our allies just do whatever we want willy-nilly on the global stage. And so I was instinctively doubtful that these proceedings would actually matter. However, some events this weekend have kind of changed my mind and shifted my perspective, namely the fact that Israel seems to be taking this incredibly seriously

and seems to be very concerned about how all of this may unfold. So with that as context, I wanted to spend some time going through what Israel's counterclaims are going to be, what their defense is, the indications that they are actually freaked out about how these proceedings may go for them. I wanted to give you a little bit of back story and context on what exactly the International Court of Justice is, how this process is going to play out, and what exactly even is the Genocide Convention, how is that defined. And then I want to spend some time too with the actual complaint. Some of the details of which, if you follow the news, if you watch our show, you'll be familiar.

But it's still worth taking some time to really sit with the claims, the South African document here. The case that they make is very compelling. And part of why it's so compelling is not only because of the numbers and the statements that we've tracked of Israeli politicians and Israeli military officials, but they actually cite UN officials' assessments themselves, which makes it very hard for a UN body, the ICJ, to refute. So let me go ahead and dive into this first part, which caused me to take a closer look at these charges and reconsider how serious this could be for Israel. So this is a report from Axios that I can put up here on the screen

that I believe just dropped this weekend about what Israel's response is. This is from Barak Ravid. He says, Inside Israel's plan to quash South Africa's Gaza genocide case. Apparently the TLDR of this is that they sent out an urgent cable to countries around the world, effectively begging them to come out with statements. We saw our own officials here, Biden administration officials, both Matthew Miller and John Kirby

coming out with the sorts of statements that Israel is effectively demanding here of their allies, and also gives a little bit of insight into how they intend to defend themselves against the charge that they are in the process of committing a genocide and they are failing to block the commission or incitement to genocide. So let me read you a little bit of this. They say the Israeli foreign ministry is instructing its embassies to press diplomats and politicians in their host countries to issue statements against South Africa's case at the ICJ that accuses Israel of committing genocide in Gaza.

So the cable, they say, sent by the Israeli foreign ministry on Thursday illustrates Israel's diplomatic action plan ahead of next week's ICJ hearing to create international pressure on the court to not issue an injunction that orders Israel to suspend its military campaign in Gaza. So already that's noteworthy, both because of the fact they're clearly taking this seriously, but also that their primary action isn't to argue against the merits of what's being presented here, but to say we need to create international pressure so that the court feels like they can't issue any sort of injunction against us. So they go on to give some of the backstory here that I've already explained. But they say Israel immediately rejected the case as baseless. But unlike in previous cases

at international tribunals, it decided to appear in front of the court because it is a signatory to the Genocide Convention. And Israel will be represented at the ICJ by the British barrister Malcolm Shaw, to everyone's chagrin, not Alan Dershowitz, sadly, who would have been just a perfect choice. It was reportedly being considered and floated. But anyway, this British lawyer, Malcolm Shaw, is going to be chosen instead. Pretoria has asked the court to file urgent provisional measures, including ordering Israel to suspend its military campaign in Gaza

while the case proceeds. This part's important, too. So it will take years to actually fully adjudicate the charge of genocide against Israel. So what South Africa is immediately asking for is first an emergency hearing, which they've already been granted. That's why this starts this week. And then what they want is these provisional measures to effectively stop any of the actions that could constitute genocide and is continuing to create harm to the afflicted population while the case is being fully adjudicated. So that's what this initial hearing is actually about. Behind the scenes, they say the Israeli foreign ministry cable states Israel's strategic goal is for the court to reject the request for an injunction. That's what I was just referring to. Refrain from determining that Israel is committing genocide in Gaza and recognize that the Israeli

military is operating in the Strip, according to international law. Quote, a ruling by the court could have significant potential implications that are not only in the legal world, but have practical bilateral, multilateral, economic security ramifications, reads the cable, copy of which was obtained by Axios from three different Israeli officials. They declined to comment. What they're asking is for them to say they immediately and unequivocally issue public statements that say they state that their country rejects the outrageous, outrageous, is that a word? Absurd and baseless allegations made against Israel. They argue that under the 1948 convention, genocide is defined as creating conditions that don't allow the survival of the population together with the intent to annihilate it. And so they want officials in countries around the world to stress Israel's efforts to increase humanitarian aid to the population in Gaza. Very questionable how they can argue that as a majority of the

population in Gaza is currently starving as we speak, but nevertheless, and to also decrease the number of civilians who are killed. They say that is critical. That also seems to me a difficult argument to make given that civilian casualties range somewhere around 80 to 90 percent of the total killed. In the cable, the Israeli embassies were instructed to ask diplomats and politicians at the highest level to publicly acknowledge Israel's working together with international actors to increase the humanitarian aid to Gaza, as well as to minimize damage to civilians while acting in self-defense after the horrible October 7th attack by a genocidal terrorist organization. So they are taking this very seriously. And I did a little bit of additional

reading of some of why this could actually have an impact. As I mentioned, the ICJ could issue an immediate injunction saying basically, you have to stop what you're doing in Gaza, period, end of story. Now, they don't really have an enforcement mechanism. And in fact, they issued a ruling against Russia that Russia has just completely blown off and ignored. So it's not like they really have teeth or any mechanism to actually enforce the signatories to this convention to abide by their rulings. However, you in the US, we can use us as an example. Our administration has said, we're not gonna even look into whether Israel's committing war crimes.

And the reason they're doing that is because, number one, they don't wanna get the answer. Number two, if Israel's committing war crimes, we are directly complicit in those because of our shipment of weapons and unconditional support of all of the actions that are being taken. So if you have this international body that the U.S. is also a signatory to having some finding that it is plausible Israel's committing genocide,

that makes things a lot more uncomfortable for the Biden administration. It also could call into question enforcement of things like the Leahy Act which are meant to prevent shipment of weapons to countries that are using them against civilians so effectively what the U.S. government has been doing so far is just pleading ignorance like oh we're not the judge and jury no we think these claims are meritless but also we're not even looking into these claims if you have this international body that we are participant in saying yes the claims have merit. Yes, we think it's plausible they're committing genocide. Yes, we're issuing a formal injunction. They need to cease and desist right away. Listen, do I think it's going to change what the Biden

administration is doing? Not necessarily. I'm not super hopeful on that front, but it will make things a lot more uncomfortable for them. For other countries around the world, which have a lot more respect for international law and international institutions, this could actually change their approach to this conflict, could lead to economic sanctions. It could lead to issues for diplomats from Israel trying to travel abroad. You've already had France saying that they're going to abide by whatever the ICJ finds. You've already had countries like Turkey say they agree with the South African case and effectively signing on to it as well. So that's some of the bigger context of why Israel is concerned here. And, you know, there's also an emotional aspect. The Genocide Convention and the ICJ comes directly out of the horrors of World War II and specifically the horrors of the Holocaust. That's why Israel's been a longtime

supporter of the Genocide Convention because of this incredibly foundational trauma that Jewish people and many Israelis actually experience or their relatives experience or connected to. So for them to be found to even plausibly be engaging in genocide, let alone, you know, after years, if this is adjudicated, if they are found to have actually committed or attempted or conspired or, you know, enabled a genocide, then that would be a pretty huge blow to their own self-conception. So there's an emotional aspect of this as well. I want to go ahead and get into some of the details here of what exactly is the genocide convention.

I always think it's a good idea just to start with the language itself, and then we can assess from there. I also want to say that regardless of whether you think the South Africa claims on their face have merit, I really do encourage you, I'm going to go through some of their argument, I do encourage you to read it yourself, and that way you can have an informed opinion. I also plan to go through whatever Israel know, whatever Israel submits in their defense, too. But I think, you know, this is obviously one of the gravest things that a country or a government can be accused of. And so if you are able to take the time to go through 84 pages from South Africa and

read what they lay out and why they feel what's happening right now is consistent with violation of the Genocide Convention. I really do encourage you to do that. So here is the actual text of the Genocide Convention. And I won't read all of it, but I'll read the first three articles here, which are sort of the most relevant. So Article 1, they say the contracting parties confirm that genocide, whether committed in time of peace or in time of war, is a crime under international law, which they undertake to prevent and to punish. Now, this is important because, again, we're a signatory. So not only are we obligated to not do a genocide, which right now, arguably, we are complicit in, but we also are obligated

to try to prevent it. And South Africa, they make the case that we are fulfilling our obligations to try to prevent genocide by filing this case. Article two says, in the present convention, genocide means any of the following acts committed with intent to destroy in whole or in part a national ethnical or racial or religious group as such so these are the type of actions that can be consistent with genocide you don't have to be doing all of them but any of the following acts with intent to destroy in whole or in part a group, including killing members of the group, causing serious bodily or mental harm to members of the group, deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical destruction in whole or in part, imposing measures

intended to prevent births within the group, forcibly transferring children of the group to another group. Article 3 says the following acts shall be punishable. And this is significant as well. Genocide, conspiracy to commit genocide, direct and public incitement to commit genocide. And that becomes relevant when we get to all of the many statements that have been made by Israeli officials and military officials that seem to include genocidal intent. Next one is attempt to commit genocide and complicity in genocide. So, you know, this is directly about Israel, but obviously the U.S., because we have provided Israel so much support, not just right now, but over the years, also is implicated. This is something Ryan grimm actually asked matthew miller about whether he was concerned and he sort of brushed off but apparently there is quite a bit of reason to

be concerned israel is concerned right now about what all of this could mean so before i dive into the specifics of the south africa report you couldn't you could do a lot worse if you just want the TLDR of what's in this report than to look at these statistics from Euromed Monitor, which has been tracking deaths and displacements and destruction in the Gaza Strip since the beginning of Israel's assault. They track here as of January 4th, 30,676 killed. That includes those who are presumed dead under the rubble. That includes 12,040 children, 6,103 women, 28,201 civilians. That is roughly a 90% civilian death toll. And again, these are many of the things that are tracked at length and really fleshed out and supported in South Africa's filing here. But just to give you the top line, this is as good a way as any to look at some of the actions that are being taken that South Africa

is arguing constitute genocide. You've had almost everyone in the Gaza Strip at this point, 1.935 million people who have been displaced. You've got press headquarters, 169 destroyed, 201 mosques damaged, three churches damaged, 198 heritage sites damaged, 58,960 injured, over 100 journalists killed. You have massive destruction to private residences so 67,946 completely destroyed homes and 179,750 partially destroyed homes 318 damaged schools 524 health care professionals who have been killed or injured 167 civil defense workers. Those are the type of people who would be attempting to pull folks from the rubble. 167 of those killed or injured. 1,612 destroyed industrial facilities, 169 health care facilities damaged, 23 hospitals, 57 clinics, and 89 ambulances, and 2,850 detainees or forcibly disappeared. So these are some of the facts

that are laid out in depth in the South Africa filing. And I want to go ahead and pull up now the case that they have laid out, their 84-page case itself, so I can go through a bit of this. And obviously, I'm not going to read the whole 84 pages. But I wanted to give you a sense of how they lay this out. And there's a number of components here. So first of all, they actually set the context. They say, listen, it's not just what's happening now. It's what's been happening over years with forcible displacements, with violence against Palestinians, both in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip, with an to civilian life and has been inconsistent, honestly, with life when you have so many people starving,

so many people dead, so much of the Gaza Strip destroyed. So they go through that as well. They also talk about what they actually want to accomplish with this and critically, so in terms of their standing and in terms of ultimate finding of genocide, but in the immediate term, this temporary injunction that they're hoping will be issued to try to cease fighting and cease, you know, the assault on the Gaza Strip.

And critically, and this is something that I've talked about before and that we've covered fairly extensively, they document page after page of Israeli officials and military officials calling for Gaza to be flattened, saying there are no innocent civilians, and expressing pretty clear and oftentimes completely clear genocidal intent. That part is very noteworthy because usually the reason why genocide is so difficult to prove is because typically people don't go around saying, let's do a genocide. We're doing a genocide. There are no innocent civilians. They all should die. The whole area should be flattened. Usually those sort of statements are not directly made. That is not the case here. And again, we've covered many, but not even close to the majority of the comments that are documented here. I will share a

few of them with you today just so you can get a sense of that. But that ability to show intent based on their own words is one of the more damning parts of this case that's laid out here. So let me just start by reading this portion I have highlighted because it kind of gives an overview of what they want to lay out in this report. They say, the facts relied on by South Africa in this application would be further developed in these proceedings, established that against a background of apartheid, expulsion, ethnic cleansing, annexation, occupation, discrimination, and the ongoing denial of the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination. Israel, since October 7th in particular, has failed to prevent genocide and has failed to prosecute the direct and public

incitement to genocide. More gravely still, Israel has engaged in, is engaging in, and risks further engaging in genocidal acts against the Palestinian people in Gaza. Those acts include killing them, causing them serious mental and bodily harm, and deliberately inflicting on them conditions of life calculated to bring about their physical destruction as a group. Repeated statements by Israeli state representatives, including at the highest levels by the Israeli president, prime minister and minister of defense, expressed genocidal intent. That intent is also properly to be inferred from the nature and conduct of Israel's military operation in Gaza, having regard inter alia to Israel's failure to provide or ensure essential food, water, medicine, fuel, shelter, and other humanitarian assistance for the besieged and

blockaded Palestinian people, which has pushed them to the brink of famine. It is also clear from the nature, scope, and extent of Israel's military attacks on Gaza, which have involved the sustained bombardment over more than 11 weeks of one of the most densely populated places in the world, forcing the evacuation of 1.9 million people or 85% of the population of Gaza from their homes and herding them into ever smaller areas without adequate shelter in which they continue to be attacked, killed, and harmed. So that is kind of their overview and lays down, as I just explained, the various pieces of the case that they're going to make. And the first part that they talk about is the context of the lengthy occupation, illegal settlements, apartheid

blockade, and consistent violence against the Palestinian people. So they're saying, listen, it's very clear what's been going on since October 7th, but part of what led us to our conclusion that this is an ongoing genocide is the fact that you've had this lengthy history of violence, control, occupation, illegal settlements, etc. And I pulled, just let me find this one part to give you a sense of the case that they're making there. So they say, Israel's actions in the West Bank since October 7th, including for its support for and failure to prevent or punish Israeli settlers for incitement and violence against Palestinians and Palestinian property, including the driving out of vulnerable Palestinian communities from their lands,

are intrinsically connected to Israel's actions in Gaza and provided the very least important context to Israel's violations of the Genocide Convention. So they say, listen, these are not two separate things. You have to look at the assault on Gaza and the loss of life here and the destruction of civilian infrastructure. You have to look at all of these pieces in the context of what has been going on for years and years. These are, they say, intrinsically connected to Israel's actions in Gaza. Let me give you a little bit more of the case that they make in terms of the occupation and the siege. They talk both about what happened in the West Bank and also what they have seen over years in Gaza. Let me just find this piece. If I can spell. Special Rapporteur. Here we go.

In 2020, the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories, occupied since 1967, described the impact of Israel's blockade on Gaza as having turned Gaza from a low-income society with modest but growing export ties to the regional and international economy to an impoverished ghetto with a decimated economy and a collapsing social service system. They go on to cite that report saying in 2022, he described the situation as follows, in Gaza, the apparent strategy of Israel is the indefinite warehousing of an unwanted population of two million Palestinians, whom it has confined to a narrow strip of land through its comprehensive 15-year-old air, land, and sea blockade with further restrictions by Egypt on the southern border of Gaza. Ban Ki-moon has called this

political quarantining of the population a collective punishment, which is a serious breach of international law. They also lay out in great detail here the apartheid system that exists with regards to the residents of the occupied West Bank and the violence that they have faced. They document how this before October 7th was one of the deadliest years in history for Palestinians living in the West Bank. And so they say, listen, when you're considering what's happening right now, you also have to look at what has been happening to Palestinians over years and years. Let me go ahead and turn to their documentation of what is actually happening right now in Gaza. And they go through horrors of the number of civilians killed, the conditions in which they have been killed.

They go through the, here we go, they go through the horrible conditions facing children in particular and how that has made it impossible for children to be safe. The emotional trauma that they have suffered over many years. And I don't want to dwell too much on this section because I showed you the Euromed monitor numbers. This is the sort of thing that we try to cover day in and day out at breaking points. If you've been watching the videos or the news, you probably are familiar with, well, not the regular news, but if you're watching us, if you're looking on TikTok, if you're looking at any sort of non-biased news source, you're

likely familiar with the extent of the horror and the atrocities. But just to give you a sense of part of what they're documenting here and just some of the horrors that sometimes don't even get noticed in the melee of the ongoing atrocities that are being committed, they talked about what was unfolding inside of hospitals and the conditions that doctors are attempting to work in, the conditions that patients have found themselves in. At one point, they say, you know, the hospitals, they say they've turned into makeshift morgues. They've turned into they've had to dig mass graves outside of them. They are more like hospice centers than they are places of ongoing care. And even that is too kind because

hospice centers indicate an ability to provide some sort of care for people who are at the end of their lives. And they say in particular here, I'll read this section, those hospitals which are still functioning are described as scenes from a horror movie. The critical shortages of staff and supplies, including anesthetics, analgesics, medicine, and disinfectants have led not only to otherwise unnecessary amputations of limbs, but also to amputations without anesthesia. Imagine that. Amputations without anesthesia. And I know some of these have been conducted on children.

Often undertaken by flashlight. Pregnant women also being subjected to cesareans without anesthetic. Patients are being treated on dirty floors covered with blood, with family members having to stand holding saline bags where saline is even available. There are insufficient staff and resources for adequate wound or post-operative wound care. Unclean wounds, often infested with worms and flies, rapidly become infected, necrotic, or gangrenous. Patients plead for food and water. Even basic pain management treatment

is often unavailable and patients are at risk of dying from treatable conditions. One doctor described having to do procedures without anesthetic. He said, I was forced to do dressing changes on massive wounds, excruciatingly painful wounds. There was a girl with just her whole body covered in shrapnel. She was nine. I ended up having to change and clean these wounds with no anesthetic and no analgesic. I managed to find some intravenous paracetamol to give her.

Her dad was crying. I was crying. And the poor child was screaming. So these are the sort of accounts that are provided in this lengthy report. And there's quite a bit, too, on the level of hunger, starvation, the famine conditions, which have been imposed. At the beginning, they announced a complete siege. Now there has been some numbers of trucks, aid trucks that have been allowed in, wildly insufficient for the needs. They go into great detail about the

sanitation failures, raw sewage running in the streets, one toilet for hundreds and hundreds of people, one shower for thousands and thousands of people, the mass displacement. They go into all of it here. And part of what makes it so difficult for, again, a UN body here in the ICJ to deny is that much of this is being documented by the UN.

And remember, UN aid workers have been killed here in larger numbers than any other war in the UN's history. So they have had, you know, a very personal view of what has been happening here on the ground that is documented in this report. So as I mentioned before, and as I covered a little bit, and we've covered some of these comments, though nowhere close to all of them, there's a lengthy section that attempts to establish intent

based simply on the public statements of, let me find this one, the public statements of um let me find this one the public statements of various israeli politicians up to including netanyahu isaac herzog senior lakud party members various cabinet members i mean you can see here the all of these different ministers president of israel israeli minister of defense israeli minister for national security minister of energy, Israeli minister of defense, Israeli minister for national security, minister of energy and infrastructure, minister of finance, a couple here that I'm not sure that we had covered on breaking points, which are quite clear with the Palestinians in Gaza. So I'll read a few of the comments here that I think we didn't cover on breaking points,

but really, you know, you could read any of these and be appropriately horrified about the sentiments that are being expressed just open and in public not just by random commentators or people online but by senior officials in positions of power so this is the israeli minister of heritage uh this individual posted on facebook the north of the gaza strip more beautiful than ever everything is blown up and flattened simply a pleasure for the eyes we must talk about the day after in my mind we will hand over lots to all those who fought for gaza over the years and to those evicted from gush katifa former israeli settlement he later argued against humanitarian aid as we wouldn't hand the nazis aid, so calling all Palestinians Nazis.

And he said there is no such thing as uninvolved civilians in Gaza. This individual, which I think we did cover on the show, also posited a nuclear attack on the Gaza Strip. We've got the Minister of Agriculture. There are some statements here from army officials that are quite noteworthy. Let me read you some from Giora Island. This is an Israeli army reservist major general, former head of the Israeli National Security Council and advisor to the defense minister. He said on October 7th, describing the Israeli order to cut off water and electricity. This is what Israel has begun to do. We cut the supply of energy, water and diesel to the strip, but it's not enough.

In order to make the siege effective, we have to prevent others from giving assistance to Gaza. The people should be told they not give in, say the state of Israel has no choice but to make Gaza a place that is temporarily or permanently impossible to live in. He also said of the attack on raid on al-Shifa hospital, which he described as inescapable. I hope the head of the CIA got an explanation of why this is necessary and why the U.S. must ultimately back even an operation like this, even if there are thousands of bodies of civilians in the streets afterward. Another time he said Gaza will become a place where no human being can exist. Also echoed the words of President Herzog, it's repeatedly underscored there should be no distinction between Hamas combatants and Palestinian civilians, saying, who are the poor women of Gaza?

They are all the mothers, sisters or wives of Hamas murderers. On the one hand, they are part of the infrastructure that supports the organization. On the other hand, if they experience a humanitarian disaster, it can be assumed that some of the Hamas fighters and the more junior commanders will begin to understand the war is futile. The international community warns us of a humanitarian disaster in Gaza and of severe epidemics. We must not shy away from this. After all, severe epidemics in the south of the Gaza Strip will bring victory closer. It is precisely its civil collapse that will bring the end of the war closer. So very clear there. This one is wild.

I actually hadn't even seen this particular speech. Israeli Army Reservist motivational speech delivered on October 11th. This is a 95-year-old Israeli Army Reservist, Ezra Yakin, a veteran of a massacre during the 1948 Nakba, reportedly called up for reserve duty to boost morale amongst Israeli troops. He, ahead of the ground invasion, was broadcast on social media inciting other soldiers to genocide as follows while being driven around in an Israeli army vehicle dressed in Israeli army fatigues. Guys ready for this one? Be triumphant and finish them off and don't leave anyone behind. Erase the memory of them. Erase them, their families, mothers, and children. These animals can no longer live. Every Jew with a weapon should go out and kill them. If you have an Arab neighbor, don't wait. Go to his home and shoot him. We want to invade, not like before. We

want to enter and destroy what's in front of us and destroy houses, then destroy the one after it. With all our forces, complete destruction, enter and destroy. As you can see, we will witness things we've never dreamed of. Let them drop bombs on them and erase them. Don't think you could get any more clear than that. And you can see the list of genocidal statements continues from there. And reportedly, the Israeli planned defense for these comments is, oh, these people are just talking. This is just populist rhetoric, was the language that I saw reported in Israeli media. And that would be their case for why these statements should be disregarded but it would be one thing if it was just random commentators random you know people on facebook or telegram or whatever but when it is the prime minister the president various ministers um

various uh current and former defense officials uh and down the line, it becomes very difficult to say, oh, this is an official government policy. Oh, this is just some fringe figures spouting off. Well, does the prime minister constitute a fringe figure? It seems to me like he would be pretty fair representation of what government policy actually is. The last part that I want to underscore here for you guys is that effectively to win in the temporary injunction, emergency injunction that they are seeking, they don't have to prove that this is a genocide that's going on. They just have to prove that it is plausible that Israel is committed and is committing or capable of being characterized at the very least as plausibly

committing genocide. So that's the standard here. They go into legal analysis of the acts that are documented and how they are consistent with certainly a plausible reading of potential genocide. And that is the legal standard for these immediate measures. As I mentioned before, the actual adjudication of whether or not genocide is being committed, that'll take years. But this immediate temporary ruling could come in weeks or potentially months. So still, you know, if you're a Palestinian in Gaza who's starving and wondering if you are going to live to see the next day, I'm sure that still feels like an eternity. But some action is being taken. And I think that it is difficult to rebut many of these claims just because it is documented by the UN,

because it is being proclaimed loudly in the words of senior officials, and because we can all see the videos of what is unfolding before our very eyes. So, you know, I guess that's why Israel, to go back to the first report we were talking about, is trying to put pressure on their allies around the world, thinking that maybe a political route is more likely to succeed than a legal route, but we'll have to see how all of this plays out.

Thanks guys for sticking with me through all of this. Like I said, I encourage you to read the whole thing because I do think it's useful to see what is being laid out here and you can decide for yourself, make your own mind up about whether or not you think

they have made the case strongly enough. Sagar and I will both be back in studio for a full show on Monday. So I'll see you then. This is an iHeart Podcast.