Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 1/8/26: Krystal and Saagar Debate Fatal ICE Shooting In Minneapolis

Episode Date: January 8, 2026

Krystal and Saagar discuss the fatal ICE shooting in Minneapolis.    Trita Parsi: https://x.com/tparsi?s=20      To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to checking in with Michelle Williams from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Good morning, everybody. Welcome to Breaking Points. Soger is with us, although remotely. He has an entire plague going through his household that I personally did not want him to spread here. And he

also, I think, did not want to spread here. So I did not want to spread it. I apologize, even for coming in yesterday. I should have known better norovirus plaguing through the Ingeti household at the moment. So yeah, but thank you. I'm doing my best. We're going to stand up here very, very strong. And so happy Thursday, everybody, can't forget to say that here on the show. What do we have, Crystal? We have a lot to get to. So we're going to break down this ice shot and killed an ice, well, we think an ice agent. We actually don't know what agency they're with, but we'll just go with ice shot and killed a woman in Minneapolis. Government immediately lied about it. We're going to tell you everything we know. I mean, look, it's very disturbing to me. It may be disturbing to you as well.

So trigger warning here at the top. We're going to show all the videos, all the angles, all of that sort of stuff. We've also got a bunch of updates on Venezuela, including some more indications of what the plans are for the oil. Treata Parsi is going to join to talk more about the broader geopolitics. Always, of course, a fantastic guest. He's going to join me here in studio. Trump making some interesting announcements in particular saying that he wants to use an executive order to ban Wall Street from buying single family homes. So can he do that? What impact will it have? How will Republicans react? We'll get into all of that. We've also got a bunch of stuff going on in terms of the midterms. And specifically, Republican majority is almost non-existent already,

very possible that they will functionally lose their majority before we even get to the midterm. So a lot of updates there. And then on, I guess, the lighter side, we're going to take a look at CBS News, Tony DeCopal, just stinking it up over there and turning it into the most embarrassing state TV propaganda that you could possibly imagine. Genuinely, I think, already worse than Fox News. What do you think, Saugher? Oh, much, much worse, because at least Fox News is much more honest. They're trying to, like, do, you know, the classic lame both sidesism, which is also clearly one-sided.

We might also call it the track of Barry Weiss's entire career. So I am very excited, and we will share a little bit of information about Tony, which we often joke about privately, but I think it's time to come out into the light. I think people should understand who Mr. DeCopal is. Yeah, so stay tuned for all of that. But let's go ahead and get started with this ice shooting in Minneapolis. So you guys know we covered on the show that the Trump administration surged 2,000 ice agents into Minneapolis, mostly in response to this Nick Shirley, you know, propaganda video about Somali daycares, whatever.

And no sooner did they land on the ground than, of course, they're being met with protests. And they ended up one of these agents shooting and killing a woman who was driving a car. I'm going to go ahead and put this video up on the screen. We've got it from different angles again. This is disturbing. So just be aware. I'm going to look this way so I can see the bigger TV screen. But in any case, you can see this maroon colored vehicle.

This is the vehicle being driven by the woman who is ultimately shot and killed. So she backs up there. And then as she moves forward, that is when this agent shoots her three times. From this angle, that angle is significant because it's from the front. And you can see that initially the officer is bumped a little bit by the vehicle is what it looks like in this angle. Now, here you can see it slowed down. You have this one person on the side, agent on the side, who has his hand on the vehicle. And then it's the guy in the front who shoots one time and then two, three times. It appears the second two shots go in

through the driver's side window, the vehicle then, you know, the driver, we don't know if she was instantly deceased or not, but incapacitated, the vehicle then crashes. Afterwards, there's, I mean, it's just, you know, unbelievable horror there, and they're apparently not providing any sort of first aid. The agent who shoots this woman, leaves, hops in a vehicle and goes. flees the scene. They're providing her no first aid. There's a doctor, actually, that is on the scene, and we can show you this in a minute. There's a doctor who's there who says, let me go and let me tend to her. I'm a physician, and they refuse care. It takes quite a long time for an ambulance

to arrive. We're talking 10 or 15 minutes. The ambulance cannot reach the scene because law enforcement vehicles are blocking the way, and this woman ends up dead. So, let's go ahead and put A2 again, which I think is significant as well, because, of course, what they're arguing is this was self-defense from the agent, and that she, the government immediately came out and called her a domestic terrorist and said that she was using her vehicle to try to run over this agent. Well, what you can see at the beginning of that A2B is here she is waving them through, waving through the vehicles of the ICE agents or federal agents, whatever agencies they're from.

So, you know, not trying to run them down. I think any reasonable person, Sagar, can see that she's backing up, she's repositioning her wheels, she's trying to flee. Now, you may say that was the wrong action. I will say there's also eyewitnesses who say she was being hit with contradictory directions, you know, stop, get out, go, get out of here. And so, you know, we have to factor that into it as well. But regardless of whether or not she did the right thing in that situation, you know,

now you have a woman who is dead, three shots fired, deadly force used here. And, you know, neither of us are lawyers. I did, I talked to Pisco and then, you know, I've been reading other lawyers online who are opining on this. And what most of them are saying is like, look, the first shot, when he's in front of the car and he gets bumped by the car, that's one thing. Maybe I could get him off for that. Shots number two and three, and put A3B up on the screen, because this is very relevant. So shots number two and three, or when he's in this position, clearly any sort of danger from the car has passed. He's alongside of the vehicle, and that those two, it's just impossible to argue that this was still self-defense. And you have to justify every single instance of use of deadly force in these instances. This was actually a relevant saga, and this was something that Pisco flagged for me. In the Derek Chauvin trial, George Floyd was actually killed just a mile from where this woman was killed. And what they said is, okay, well, maybe you could justify the initial hold with the knee on the neck infamously. But once he's dead,

how are you still in danger in any way? And that was part of what led to the guilty verdict in that trial. So, you know, that's the sort of legal analysis. All of these things are fed through political lens as well. The FBI is partnering with the local state police to investigate this killing. You know, I have zero confidence in Cash Patel's FBI in general, but certainly to be sort of nonpartisan and non-political here. We don't yet have any sort of indictment. We don't have the agent who killed this woman. We don't have any sort of identity. We don't even know what agency he's with and whether he's still on the job, whether he's still in Minneapolis. We don't know any of that. So in any case, you know, that's sort of where things stand. And what would a jury do

with it. How would they view it? You know, neither one of us can say, but I can tell you if I'm on that jury, I don't think that there's any way I would view the totality of that as acting in self-defense when clearly she is trying to flee. She's trying to exit the scene. She's not trying to kill anyone. She's not trying to hurt anyone. She's trying to get out of there. Yeah, I understand where you're coming from. I do think it's very important that that video, which does show contact being made. I mean, that is ultimately going to play very well to a jury for somebody who's going to reasonably argue that their life is in danger. And I do think it's important, you know, you and I can see wheels turning or some of the initial stuff for intent, but it actually matters more for what the

officer reasonably could believe at the time. So, for example, he can't see wheels that are being turned from where you and I could, perhaps, you know, from the side. This is also somebody, you know, you did say at the beginning, this is also very important. If you do listen to, the video being told very clearly, you know, to get out of the vehicle. And so disobeying order, look, this is a tragic situation because I don't even want to sound like, you know, a callous or anything. I'm definitely not one of those people who are like, oh, you get what you deserve. At the end of the day, you know, this is an American woman on an American street and she's shot and she's killed. And, you know, if you were to ask me, my personal opinion,

it kind of looks like she panicked there a little bit. I do think it is dangerous, you know, ultimately putting people in these types of situations. And so just generally back, you know, to the legal analysis. You know, I think what's important is the reasonable fear of this person at the time. As you said, Minnesota state law is actually a bit narrower than various other different states whenever it comes to law enforcement and use of deadly force. I will say something that is very different about this. This is not a local PD. So there are some supremacy things that could come into place, whether there's even, you know, jurisdiction to try a federal law enforcement officer. I know it has been done in the past, but there are several different legal theories

which would say this was, it's different, just, but anyway, state homicide versus federal. Go ahead. For a second, because I asked Piscoe about this. And he said, first of all, you know, Minnesota state law is what would control here, right? He would be charged with some degree of murder in the state of Minnesota. Now, there is a law in place that, says federal agents can get them moved from state court to federal court. State law would still control, though, and very likely, I mean, they might try to do change of jurisdiction or something, but very likely he would still be tried in Minneapolis at the federal district court there, which side note I've actually did too. But in any case, so it would still be state law. It would still

be Minnesota law that's governing, but it would be tried at the federal district court level, very likely. I also think what I was reading as well is that, you know, again, we can zoom their slow-mo. That's not how reality is. The totality of shots fired in a certain window of time is going to be important for the prosecutors and for the jury if this did end up being charged on multiple shots that are discharged in a short window, let's say, 0.4 seconds. What I was reading is very, very different, six to eight shots, let's say, that are fired over a minute with the idea that the latter shots, you know, when you have a reasonable amount of time, to be able to justify. So the page to the reality, to the timing is all that would be important

there for a jury. So disobeying order, there is state law, as I understand it, whenever you're refusing an order, and then you do flee, then you do immediately become somebody who is fleeing the scene. So that's going to play into it as well. That's not any justification, though. No, no, no, no, no. Explicitly in the, I understand. Yeah, in the use of force guidelines that are in place that operate for these federal law enforcement officers. You're not to, and in a I mean, just rationally, like, if you shoot someone who's driving at you, the car is not going to stop, right? It's not even like a rational action in self-defense. I also wanted to just note, and sorry, sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off soccer. I did want to note that this is the night's ice shooting since September. And in every single instance, it's involved people who are in vehicles. And we covered extensively here, the case in Chicago. with Miramar Martinez, who, you know, the initial story was very similar. She pulled a, she had a gun, she pulled a gun, she was threatening us, she was harassing us

with her car. Body camera footage comes out, and immediately that story started to fall apart. But then once the body camera footage came out, they actually dropped all the charges against her. Meanwhile, they had shot her, I think, five to seven times. Unfortunately, she survived. But in any case, you know, this is the latest tragic incident. it's not even the first killing of by an ICE agent of, you know, someone who was in a motor

vehicle just in the past several months. Right. I understand. I totally do. I do think, though, that those things need to come into question, you know, this was a protester who was blocking, you know, federal agents and also, it's not illegal, I guess, but you do also have to keep in mind about disobeying orders. And, you know, I would also caution everyone. You should remember that almost every, you know, kind of left liberal cause celeb has ended up either not charged or not found guilty at trial, you know, if I could just rack off the, so that's what I'm saying, you know, judge jury from video often plays very differently whenever it becomes before grand jury and jury. So we have Trayvon Martin, Michael Brown, Eric Garner, you know, I'm Daniel Penny, Kyle

Rittenhouse, there are multiple Breonna Taylor, you know, multiple incidents which became kind of protests cause celebs. In fact, I'm hard pressed to think of one where there is such a question like there is in this case that didn't actually end up either being not charged and or found not guilty at trial. It's really only in like the George Floyd case or others. We're genuinely just so explicit and indefensible that you do find somebody. There's an extraordinary amount of deference in the United States case and state law that generally goes to police officers. And that's why I think this is a tragic, tragic situation. So yes, we can all. sit here and claim otherwise. I do not presume, you know, to be in the minds of a Minneapolis

state jury or a federal jury, but I definitely would caution people to understand that with their expectations and consider the history that I just laid out. Something that may be very obvious to you is not usually obvious to a jury. And I do think the fact that contact was made ultimately is going to be very, very important. And I think kind of zooming out from that, then we need to ask, you know, and I do think there's also just deep amount of criticism that can be levied here at these ICE agents. There's been a lot of concern you've laid it out before as well about the 47 days of training, accelerated training. There's potentially some indication that this officer may have violated internal guidelines, which we'll get to here in a little bit. I do also think,

though, and I'm not blaming this woman, you know, for her death, I do think that she certainly did not act correctly. You know, fleeing an officer, a federal agent who's telling you to get out of your car, is extremely irresponsible. It's just not something, which anyone can empathize and understand why somebody who can panic in that situation. But I also do think we should caution people from, you know, look, if you're putting yourself in these types of situations, which we've seen over and over again, I think there is an unfortunate kind of permissiveness where a lot of people who think that they're standing up against any cause, you know, that they think is just where ultimately, you know, they're putting themselves in very, very dangerous

situations where things can go awry. I saw some interesting, you go ahead. I just, you know, I would like the federal agents are supposed to be the trained professionals, right? They're supposed to be de-escalating. They're supposed to be keeping everyone safe. That's like they're supposed to be trained to do that. Meanwhile, you know, you have a woman who is 37-year-old, it's 37-year-old. Her name is Renee Good. She's the mother, by the way.

Now at least, you know, I've seen conflicting reports. She has at least one child. He's now an orphan because his dad is also. deceased several years back. In any case, you know, there's such high expectations placed on the civilian protester. We can put A3B up on the screen where eyewitnesses say that she was being given all these conflicting reports. Let me just read this part. Kounson said one person, the woman who was shot a short time later drove her vehicle perpendicular to lanes of traffic. By that point, the vehicle stuck in the snow had been freed. Some of them were leaving.

they just went around her. Ice gave her orders to leave. While at the same time, another ice person said get out of the car and reached for her door handle. Then there was an ICE agent in front of her vehicle, so it was difficult for her to leave as she'd been ordered to do. And this is not the first instance where we've seen this. And I think the lack of training comes into play here too, Saga, where it's like you've got all these guys, they're hyped up. You know, we don't know who they are. We don't know whether they're new on the job or what their training is or whatever. But, you know, we know across the country, we've got a bunch of thugs who are out on the streets who have little to, you know, very little training and very basic knowledge of what they're supposed to do, not from the area, right? So in neighborhoods that are unfamiliar to them, they're all hyped up, they're all yelling different things. And so she's trying to figure out what to do. She's not the professional, right? And so even if you say she shouldn't have fleed, she should didn't do the right thing here, look, we can all have those judgments. That is irrelevant to whether or not this man murdered her and could be found guilty. That is her behavior. is in that regard, whether she was doing the right thing or the smart thing or the optimal

thing or the ethical thing even, is irrelevant to the question of whether or not his actions were justified. Because as we were discussing before, a fleeing, like the fact that someone is fleeing, unless they just themselves committed a murder, there's like a handful of, you know, very high-level crimes where it could be justified, where you think this person could be an imminent danger if they get away, then, you know, you're in a different territory. There's no indication that this woman has any criminal record at all that we know of at this point. In any case, she doesn't fit, you know, doesn't fit that category. So the fact that she's trying to flee, that is not at all a justification for using deadly, not at all a justification

for using deadly force. The thing that I think, yeah, the thing that I think is most relevant, to your point is the fact that, you know, he gets bumped by the car that you can see in one of those angles. I mean, he is moved, you know, it is a 4,000-pound vehicle. Like, you know, we can say bumping, but like, that does not, that does not per se mean that you also are justified in that situation because it is a comment on you to try to de-escalate, try to remove yourself in the situation. And there has to be some other, you know, course of action. Like, he's able to step out of the way at the end of the day. This is, and we can get into, you can finish your thoughts, and then we can get into the government case, because this part will 100% agree on.

immediately, before the facts are even known, the entire federal government starts completely lying, fabricating absolute nonsense. And they're also claiming that this agent who gets bumped by the car is in the hospital on, oh, my God, he's lucky he's alive and he's recovering. We now know from CNN reporting that when the, this actually came directly from the state police officer who arrived on the scene who asked is anyone else injured. And they said, no, only the woman, meaning that this guy was told. Now, that doesn't mean that there wasn't contact with the vehicle. But this whole story, there's, oh, my God, he was so lucky. He escaped with his life and he's in the hospital recovering, blah, blah, blah, is also total and complete bullshit.

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Listen to the Happiness Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'm not denying that the government put out like a, I mean, look, I think that's the worst. That's why I feel this is a genuine tragedy. I think that this is like insane, both the way that, uh, I think, especially, you know, look, the way that we just immediately mobilize and blame people for their own death. And that's why I'm not sitting here. And also even if somebody hears me, heard the word justify, you need to understand this. I'm not talking about morals. I'm talking about legal. And I'm also talking about in the frame of mind of an officer, uh, who is in that moment. So yes, you're saying fleeing doesn't matter, but, you know, making contact ultimately, a vehicle has

been well-established as a deadly weapon in multiple, well-established case law. I do definitely think of de-escalation, and I do think that that would have been, you know, a better and a more proper way to handle it, not had to do it, but in terms of get-to-do it. That's the word that Daryl Cooper used. And I thought that that phrase was interesting. And it definitely is one, though, that still matters, ultimately doesn't have any distinguishment legally, but does matter in terms of, in terms of how we can assess the general situation. But, you know, I do. I, do kind of return as you said i understand look you have deep sympathy with this protester i do get it uh i do think though ultimately you know we don't generally want to normalize me you and i have argued about this

remember in the past videos where people are just straight up like trying to grab people away from federal agents getting arrested and as i said literally at the time this is a very dangerous situation normalizing that type of behavior i think is really dangerous and unfortunately i do think there's a lot of liberal protest, you know, permissiveness. You know, you were saying that he's been bumped by the vehicle. You know, I was here during BLM with a single cop car touched a protester. It was, you know, attempted murder. It was constant, like it was.

I mean, have you seen the number of ice vehicles that have hit people in the streets? Yes. I mean, there's a video going around of an ice vehicle hitting a woman and them just, you know, her falling down and I'm just laughing about it. Sure. I'm not an ice fan boy. I don't think that they act of purpose. I have also seen videos of people also who do definitely either try to ram their cars or drive at ICE agents, which I think is very relevant to the case.

So, but even in those instances, like, we hear that from the government and then there's no charges pressed or we hear that from the government and then they file charges and then they're thrown out or they back away from them. Like in the case of Miramar Martinez. So, and what I would say again is who should. should be held to the higher standard. The random civilian, very upset about what's going on and protesting, and listen, if they commit crimes, yes, charge them with those crimes. Let's do it. What is more concerning, though, normalizing, like, you know, that liberal protest behavior, you know, that you don't like or that I might not like, or normalizing ICE being able to shoot to kill when they feel even slightly threatened. Like, to me, the, the, the, the, the, that normalization is a much deeper concern, and especially when you do zoom out, and you

consider, again, this is the nice time that ICE has fired at people in their vehicles just since September. That is an extraordinary high number. We've seen all sorts of insane behavior from the, and the way that they will point guns at people all the time. You know, the number of instances we have at that is wild. And then we know that they're, many of them are total newbies are wildly untrained, you know, the way they've dropped the standards, and then you set these people loose, and you have the government telling them that they can do anything, that they can act with total impunity. And in some ways, that's the part that bothers me the most, is like, if we were in a normal time, right, what would happen

here is, number one, the normal protocol would be instantly anytime you discharge your service weapon, you are sidelines in your job while an investigation, a current Right? And public officials would wait to say this person in the vehicle is a domestic terrorist. That's what they're saying, right? Before even the videos had come out, they said she was a domestic terrorist. They invent all of this stuff. And then you have J.D. Vance out there tweeting, you know, I want to send out a message saying I stand with all of you. I mean, the message that goes out is that you can literally do anything. And we will lie on your behalf. We will cover for you. We will do everything we can. can to make sure you can get away with it. And that to me is what is much, much, much more concerning than, you know, a woman trying to flee to flee. And by the way, I mean, these people are also massive. They're not identifying themselves. She doesn't even, you know, they're not local cops. They, like, for what reason are they trying to detain her? We don't have any indication she actually violated any law or did anything wrong before this interaction. I don't know.

that's part of why I look I would like to live in a normal time too and you're talking there about how the immediate reaction I do think it's a selective story I mean everybody's already said that this is a murder and then he used to be prosecuted immediately so yeah I would like to return to immediate times as well but we don't we live in the hyper political and unfortunately law enforcement has basically been completely politicized in this way since Trayvon Martin and normal times at least in my lifetime and yeah I don't think it's a good thing and that's again you know why I would really caution people is every single time that you know people just say oh this is murder there's hands you know hand there's no question or any of

this it usually ends up losing a trial and or not getting charged now you know of course the excuse to come up with that is systemic racism but look i mean i don't think that multiple small jurisdictions all across the country including in some of the biggest and most liberal cities that ends up letting these people off is part of that i think largely unfortunately you know when we come to snap judgments which is not immediately other and again i'm not even coming to one as well if i need to i would want to see body camera footage i think the relevance of the moments leading up to uh whether you could see the wheels getting turned from the body camera footage of the agent who ultimately discharged the weapon those are the things that are most relevant in this individual case uh but you know i i do

think that's honestly a bit of selective because you did immediately have the minneapolis mayor and or the governor or others, the leader of the Democratic Party, people saying, this is a straight up murder. And it's like, well, you don't know anything just like, you know, the government doesn't know anything. And that's my frustration always has been with these types of cases. And look, I understand this is unpopular sometimes in the moment to speak like this. And I don't think anybody out there who is just immediately saying, like, you know, I want to say that too. People were like, oh, she deserved it. I mean, that's, like, we don't talk like that. about especially people who are in our country.

But we can talk rationally with, you know, some small, limited criticism ultimately of somebody who did not act responsibly and who ultimately drove away. And so, yes, there is a higher standard and there should be for people who literally get to carry guns in U.S. suits and kill people justifiably if they want to or if they can prove it, right? And that's generally how U.S. case law does operate. And we can absolutely argue about those power dynamics. And in terms of just like more broadly with this case, because I do find it just very troubling, like you said, about the way that we're just immediately domestic terrorists. You know, we don't brand fellow citizens immediately domestic terrorists, immediately without any known facts. Because in normal times, that wouldn't usually happen. And I do think it's, look, this is what Trump is ultimately, this is what he does. You know, this is what honestly has kind of been unleashed.

within, you know, just jansing everything is just like we've done nothing wrong. I do, though, I just, I frankly just cannot speak without acknowledging the totality of, like I just said, many other Democratic politicians who don't know probably less than you and I do about this case, also immediately are just like, yep, this is murder. And so, you know, to say that it's just explicit politicization or anything just from Trump is just not accurate. And, you know, this is where the, I think that there is so much moral certitude from a lot of the liberal commentariat about what protests are doing that they have encouraged, frankly, this type of behavior where we can just, no, but it's not the point right now.

I mean, no, but it is the point. But it's not. Because, okay, the worst you can say about this woman is that she was panicked and trying to flee, right? I mean, that's very clearly what it looks like is going on here, right? Well, no, the worst you can say is that she was trying to kill him. No, you cannot reasonably look at this and say that. But that is the worst thing that you could say. That is a fiction, though. That would be a lie. Like the thing that is most tethered to reality that you could say about her is that she was trying to flee, right? Okay. That's what I think. The worst thing you can say about this officer is that he murdered a woman. And he is backed by the state and the president of the United States, like which one of those things is more concerning

an individual civilian woman who fails to do exactly what the police want her to do in that moment or state sanctioned murder. I mean, like just in terms of where the upset lies, to me, it's, it's no contest. And especially again. Because I think that's very zoomed in and that kind of ignores the last five years that we lived through. But it does. No, no, no, no. No. It is. is zoomed in, but it is reflective of the context we live in right now, which is not really about, you know, these individual police shootings, which is, you know, also horrible. And we can talk about that in separate terms. This is about these specific surging of these untrained agents masked up, unaccountable, unidentified,

operating in rogue, insane ways, you know, tear gassing a baby, right? arresting American citizens, racially profiling, routinely, you know, firing weapons now at this point routinely, and then lying about it brazenly, even when we have the video, even when we have the body camera evidence, like, that is the broader picture that I'm concerned about. And so, look, in any law enforcement agency, the best thing you can say is, look, there's always going to be a few bad apples. And that used to always be the line, right? Like, yes, this was horrible, but there's a few bad apples.

We have to look at this, you know, systematically and the fact that this is just immediately justified. The murder of the killing of an American citizen is just immediately justified by and lied about by and the person who was killed also immediately lied about by Christy Nome, by Trisha McLaughlin, and then by the President of the United States. Like, that to me is really the most concerning thing here, much higher level concern over that versus whether, you know, every individual protester is acting in exactly the, you know, right and appropriate manner. Yeah, look, I'm not denying the power dynamic. I just, I do think, though, that there is a lot of ignoring, frankly, you know, of exactly what I just talked about in these types of tactics and behavior, which did happen over the last,

I mean, honestly, not even the last five years, over the last 10 years. which is a large reason, in my opinion, how we even got here. That doesn't absolve the government of its behavior. But I do think it's, you know, a little bit selective and does ignore that context. And also why the politicization from many of the right whenever it comes to law enforcement is the way that it is. And, you know, look, I think that, you know, all I can do is kind of look at this through the lens of both, like, experience in politics and also in terms of yeah i guess also in terms of how the current government has operated and i'm not even deny i'm in total agreement that the way that christianome or trisha mclaughlin and we've

covered these over and over again like you can't take any of these people's word to the bank i would notice how long have you not even speaking like 20 minutes and we haven't put the government's version up here because i don't think it's very trustworthy uh and i think that the video kind of speaks for itself and ultimately that's all that really will matter yeah trial is not what Trisha McLaughlin, Kiercy Nome, and I don't think that you should immediately be branding people domestic terrorists. I'm only, I guess, trying to represent, I guess, I guess what I'm trying to represent is a bigger picture of how we got here because, and not just that, but, you know, what I fear the most, and I think you do too, is more of these types of incidents. And I also

think that when you look at the way that the governor and the mayor and the president have now all reacted, I can't help but see it continuing to go down that route. I wish we could just kind of stand to thwart it and yell, stop. But I don't see a way out. That's what, I mean, that is what is really depressing to me is that, you know, you and I have talked before about these people who always jump online, civil wars coming, blah, blah, and I'm like, that's fucking ridiculous. Like you watch too many movies.

is this is absurd. But I have to tell you, I mean, I look at this whole chain of events, right, which really starts with Nick Shirley's like sloppaganda video, which, you know, the the Trump administration takes and runs with, not in any sort of serious, hey, let's see, is there fraud? Like, does this actually point to anything real? No, it's, we're going to do this massive show of force, right? So it starts with a fabrication and a piece of propaganda. And then you, you know, you end up here where immediately you have, you know, almost the entire right branding this protester, domestic terrorists and saying, you know, fuck her, she deserved it. And you have, you know, the government like pushing out a totally fabricated version of

events. And I'm just looking at this and going like, we do not live in the same reality. Like, the post-truth environment has truly set in. And I've already seen like AI videos of this woman and this officer that are being spread around. And so you don't have a shared understanding of reality. You have and then you you don't even have a shared understanding of like what the nation even is. You've got the Stephen Miller version that's some like blood and soil ethno-nationalist project where they want to deport 100 million people, which would include every non-white American in the country, not dementia. in the undocumented immigrants, of course. And I don't know.

I mean, I do get very, it makes me feel very dark about how we continue to make this thing work as a nation when we don't have a shared understanding of reality. And we don't even have like a shared grounding in what the nation even actually is. I don't disagree per se, but I mean, I do think, look, we haven't gotten a chances of waiting on the Shirley thing. Look, I mean, it's pretty obvious like, you know, Shirley's not going to be winning a Pulitzer Prize any time soon. I do think, you know, just dismissing it outright as sloppaganda or whatever, it kind of belies

the point as to why it went really viral in the first place, and the governor ultimately did resign. I mean, at the end of the day, he decided not to run for reelection. Yeah, okay, not running for re-election is pretty seismic when you were the sitting vice presidential candidate, not only what, a year ago, almost to this, or sorry, a year and a half ago, that Nick Shirley identified a single instance of legitimate fraud? well no because that's not i mean but i mean that tells you it's propaganda right well okay but um but this look and again i don't want to come across as a nick shirley defender like i'm not

putting out anything under that guys over here at breaking points because we ask for comment and we don't show up at daycares and ask to look at children okay that is not the point uh that is actually in fact you know as a parent of a young child uh i would definitely hope that if my child is a daycare that nobody is choice, it's been like, oh, yeah, here you go. Come on in. Yeah. You can go and take a video. All right.

Now, I understand, though, that those journalistic standards, let's say, were shoddy. I do think it blew up, though, and also is tethered to reality enough where the governor of Minnesota is not going to seek re-election and actually is acknowledged inside of the state as a titanic fraud. And so, frankly, like, even that framing of it is kind of ignores, like, a genuine problem of serious fraud in the Somali immigrant community in the state of Minneapolis. I understand that that's very inconvenient. But ultimately, again, like, this seems like we're not talking in a Trump universe where

actually he almost very nearly won the state of Minnesota. Sager, I'm not denying. I mean, again, what, 78 people were prosecuted under the Biden administration. And this whole thing came to the forefront again because of a New York Times article. Okay. I'm not denying that there's, you know, been fraud in the Smalley community in Minneapolis. My specific claim is that the Nick Shirley video was propaganda. And I think that is undeniable.

You can't even assert with confidence that a single instance that he identified and claimed was fraud was actually fraud. And not to, of course, you know, to even credit that this administration cares about fraud when they pardon a new fraudster every other day and are themselves committing mass fraud is of course. is utterly preposterous. But, you know, this gets to my point about, like, I don't know how you, I just feel very dark about how we persist as a country when there is not a shared understanding of reality. There's not a shared sense of facts. The president will just completely invent reality, and the vast, like, 97% of his base will just accept it however he spins it.

And then, as I said before, when, you know, I mean, the thing that, has to glue a nation together, and you, you know, you're much more of a nationalist than I am, so I think you'd probably speak to this better than me, but there has to be some shared understanding of, like, what it is we're doing here. That has crumbled. Like, that does not exist anymore. And, you know, in any of the aspirational stories that we used to tell ourselves about America, which were never accurate, but at least had an ideal, like, those are just tossed out the window now. Now it's just, no, we have all the guns, so we're going to come and take your shit. Like, I don't know. You put all this together and, um, it seems, it seems pretty

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And once you get to retirement, you're done. What about the whole path along the way? So join me to get unstuck in 2026. Listen to the Happiness Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your shows. I do want to get to, you know, what I do want to get to a couple other aspects of this. Yeah, just so we can tell the whole story. Yeah. Look, because I understand yeah i understand where you're coming from shared reality etc also we do have irreconcilable differences uh in not not you and i per se although i guess you know i per se too uh in terms of politics uh but what do we have a reconcilable differences i think you and i could probably work it out we can probably come to an accommodation but but america like we do have a reconcilable

differences like you were talking there i'm a nationalist i mean that's why like it's not just the fraud thing i'm like i think it's crazy that there are tens of millions of people here who literally don't speak English. Like, I think that's nuts. And that's why, you know, you and much of the liberal left at this point views deportation for anybody who's not a convicted felon as like a tragedy. And I just simply don't. I accept deep. I fundamentally accept that some level of law enforcement, deportation and or English language proficiency is deeply necessary to being able to have some sort of shared civic understanding. I do not accept, you know, for example, that, you know, I mean, in the same way of, like, few bad apples that we could look at with law enforcement,

I would look at the immigrant fraud in Minneapolis as a systemic genuine problem, which is decades-long permissiveness here, not only of the U.S. welfare state, but also of the general project of assimilation itself being abandoned, in my opinion, at this point. And ultimately, we resolve that through elections. And that is part of why, you know, I do get upset kind of bringing back to the liberal kind of protests is in some ways, you know, in the same ways that, like, January 6th was like, it's not anti-democratic in the nature of like because we don't like the outcome. There does seem to be a general sense of even though we lost an election, and even in the state

of Minneapolis, we haven't played the clip yet. You know, you have the mayor of the city being like, get the fuck out of Minneapolis. I mean, I just look at that. Maybe it plays well. I'm not a Minneapolis resident. You guys can elect all of that, whoever you want. But it's like, this is like a neo-confederate idea that cities, I mean, I saw Zoran Mamdani yesterday, be like, we are proud as a sanctuary city, we will continue to enforce it.

Like, again, to me, I think that's insane. Like, we have a supremacy here of the United States Constitution. Federal law is the law of land. You don't just simply get to legalize whoever you want and or decide whether federal law enforcement is able to be present, you know, in your community. That's like, I mean, then secede and become Singapore in a city state. Like, that's not how it works. And so that's just one of those kind of things where these differences

aside like they do have to be answered like i think that immigration has always been probably for the last decade this singular kind of cleavage of our time how to resolve and then you know look i think all of your criticism i largely agree with most of your criticisms uh for example of ice but i think that the difference and also why a lot of people are willing to give a pretty extraordinary amount of deference is because they want the question as the question as it's posed now for over a decade to be, at the very least, either solved and or dealt with in a way that hasn't simply happened before. I am watching, you know, Abolish ICE basically take over much of the liberal movement.

I mean, I guess I get it, you know, from everybody's perspective, because you don't really believe in enforcement, you know, in the first place. I mean, I don't think that's, I don't think that's true that we don't believe in any enforcement. I can speak for myself. I can speak for everybody who would support abolishing ICE. I think they look at this agency and, you know, I mean, you're the first to talk. about like order and not chaos and there is no more chaotic element um no more sort of

violent and rogue element in american society these are like armed state thugs operating like gangsters in city streets so i think it's entirely legitimate for mayor fray to be like get the fuck out because you know i mean they are they are creating they are creating crime and violence in american communities well i think that ignores the chaos of tens of millions of people isn't illegally in the country. I don't think there's any, I don't, that's what I mean. But, Sager, you know, and the other piece that you said that really bothers me is you're like, well, we won the election.

So what, that just means people can't say, like, okay, we, we oppose this. We don't support this. You can't impede federal law enforcement. You can't go out and protest. I mean, that's a, that's an incredibly anti-democratic view. Basically, like, we won. So you have to shut up and take it. Even when we're talking about mass thugs, shooting people on American streets.

And I'm going to be more upset. that about the protester who didn't do exactly the right thing, than an American citizen being killed by somebody we are funding, taxpayer funded, unidentified, masked up thug. We still don't even know who this person is or what agency they're even with. So that to me is a wildly undemocratic view. And it's also not reflective of how people feel about these operations. This is not popular what Trump is doing. Support for immigration has never been higher, literally.

If you look at, you know, the Gallup charts of, like, believing immigration is more of a benefit than a harm, those numbers are off the charts. Trump has plummeted on his handling of immigration. People like what he's done at the border. They do not like this stuff because, to your point about, you know, you normally focus a lot on, like, order and not chaos. Like, this is creating chaos and people can see it. It's creating lawlessness. It's stoking conflict. And yes, I do put more of a burden on the state to de-escalate and be professional and be responsible

because these are the people that are supposed to be professionals we're paying with our taxpayer dollars. Then I do with, you know, random protesters who, by the way, are being, you know, tear-gast and assaulted by ICE and CBP and these other agencies on a routine basis. So I think a lot of, you know, myself, I can certainly speak to for myself. And I think there are a lot of people who feel this way, too, is like, okay. If we're going to call for accountability for criminals in general, like, where is the accountability for these rogue agents who just feel are given absolute impunity to do anything? I mean, you talk about, okay, he got, you know, he got hit with the car as she's pulling away. The number of people have been hit by ICE agents, either themselves, their physical body or their vehicles, are they all justified and going and shooting ice? I don't know.

I'm not okay with that. I don't think you'd be okay with that as well. But, you know, that's the other context. It's like this sense that they can just do literally anything with no accountability, no impunity. I think it's incredibly important that, listen, I don't know what a jury will do in a trial or whatever. He should have his day in court. He should be indicted here. We should have it out.

He should be able to offer, you know, his version of the story and, you know, argue this with self-defense. And prosecutors should be able to argue on the other side on behalf of Renee Good. And jury can assess it. We should let this play out through the justice system because to allow this to happen and not even go through that process, to me, would be, it would be horrifying. It would be. Well, the first step is investigation and a grand jury, which again, I'll remind everybody, again, in the vast majority of these liberal cause celebs never even make it pass grand jury,

which I do think is important to underscore to a lot of people. Yeah, and I just want to clarify, like, I didn't say people can't. protest i'd i've never said that i think they can i do think and i think you would even acknowledge that there is a general like liberal position of they can do whatever they want if the longer they're protesting the right thing blocking traffic taking over cities burning down you know causing the most property damage let's say in you modern american history uh all of this is waved away rioting looting uh 26 people murdered not that they got any justice let's say and or an explosion in the murder and violent crime across the entire nation.

Like, these were also the reality that many of us kind of lived through over the last five, six years, which, you know, ignores, I think, you know, you're, yes, you're talking about chaos. That was also deeply chaotic. Apologized for justified. I mean, first of all, I think the present moment is a reaction to that moment. I think people who commit crimes in the context of a protest, I think they should be prosecuted, right?

I think that should happen. Well, that was not a popular position during 2020. I have zero problem saying that. Let's deal with the present moment. who is creating the chaos who is committing war crimes right the protesters which have been overwhelmed i mean i can't have any have any of them been been violent i mean i haven't seen any that we don't have any there's been violent then why haven't them been prosecuted you don't think this administration would be happy to prosecute any instance that they could possibly point to

they've been overwhelmingly nonviolent and so in the present moment like who is who are the ones that are causing the problems in American cities, right? It's not the people who are concerned about it. Overwhelmingly, it is these rogue agents operating with impunity coming from the very top, which is why, again, I think it is so important that there is an investigation and an indictment here and the justice prosecutor play out, and there's no guarantees for how that's going to go. There's no doubt about it. Police get away with a hell of a lot in this country.

You're absolutely right about that. I do think, though, that, you know, in terms of the jury mentality, I think there is a lot less sympathy for ICE agents in American communities than there are local police officers. I think it's a very different mental landscape for Americans when they are considering this case. And, you know, when you talk about a jury of your peers, like that ultimately does will matter potentially. I mean, if it even gets, again, that presumes it goes past the jury.

grand jury, which I'm not so sure, actually, especially if this goes federal, and it's something, or they're successfully able to argue that it's federal. I'm not sure that this case ever actually makes it to trial. Yeah, I mean, look, we've talked this quite a bit through. I don't think there's much else to say. Do you have anything else that you want to get to before we move to Venezuela? There are a few things. I mean, first of all, I just want to put her, you know, this image up on the screen, A4 of Renee Good. Her mother says she was an amazing human being. She was living in Minneapolis. with her partner just blocks from where she was shot, she was mother, you know, had a young child who's now without parents. I want to, I think this part is important if we could play A5

because one thing is, okay, the initial killing. And then after that, there is no, there is no first aid that's applied that we can see at least. And there's a physician who is there, who is said, let me go help her, and they block him and point their weapons at him. This is A5. Let's go ahead and take a look at that. Oh, check a pulse. No. Back up. Now. I'm a physician. I don't care. I understand. We got EMS coming. I get it. Just give us a second. We have medics on scene. We have our own medics. Where are they? Where are they? So he says, I'm a physician. They say, we don't care. And they're saying, oh, we have our own medics on the scene.

no evidence of that. There's no evidence that there was any first aid given to this woman. Now, who knows if it would have made a difference? You know, I think the wounds were quite grave. But you would think that if these are law enforcement officers, you know, their first, one of their first responsibilities is supposed to be to protect human life. And their peers to have been no effort given in that regard. In addition, we put A6 up on the screen. Once an ambulance did arrive, this was, you know, after a decent amount of time. It says a doctor at the same attempt to help the woman in a shot was kept away by federal agents. When an ambulance finally arrived, it was blocked from reaching her by law enforcement

vehicles and paramedics had to reach her on foot. Another eyewitness said that she, they didn't even use a structure. They carried her out by her arms and legs like a sack of potatoes. So, I mean, you tell me what conclusion you can come to when no first aid is administered. A doctor is blocked from treating her. Amulence arrives, you know, kind of apparently took 10 to 15 minutes. And then law enforcement vehicles are blocking the way so the ambulance cannot even reach her. Like, the level of care for this woman's life is utterly non-existent, which, you know, I don't think, I don't know if it's a criminal offense. In some states, it would be. I don't know if Minnesota has a good Samaritan law or not. But it's certainly,

you know, it's certainly morally bankrupt. It's certainly a horrible. We don't know. Obviously, we don't know this, you know, exactly. I actually think that's exactly the type of thing they should go to investigation and or. And this is why I wish I had more faith. in some sort of like proper action after action review because I do think this is an overall tragic situation like if I were like again in normal times what happens you know nobody immediately says it's murder and nobody immediately says it's domestic terrorists and they said we're going to do a full investigation and then in the meantime uh whoever the agency is isn't immediately absolved of behavior and is usually like okay guys let's say this was a legal good shoot we still

probably shouldn't have gotten to this anyways. What are all the things that we're going to do to make sure that none of this happens again? And this is why, you know, that's what kind of launched our whole diet tribe. I'm like, yeah, I don't see a way out of this because that's, that's unfortunately where I genuinely do think, like, considering the way that all of the reaction has no come past, like this obviously would be fit as in probably any local PD, I'm assuming, if you kill somebody, there's usually not only after action report. There's usually like a best practice. and or interest training to be able to hammer into people. That's usually, that's kind of what I guess the moderate, my position was after George

Florida. I'm like, wow, what a horrific tragedy and murder of this person. We should probably make it so that all of these people are trained in such a way that none of this happens again. It got ultimately distorted, politicized, and ultimately that's kind of how we are where we are today, unfortunately. And like, that's where I see things heading. currently in this direction and yeah i mean that's why i like i'm not you know again i'm not going to

deny and i do think that much of the chaos element has come from a lack of training uh and in this particular case again we don't know the exact officer or any of that uh and and and or culture is also one that people often focus on let's say in the military after a horrific accident you're like okay well what was the command and control culture you know that would lead to something like even if our troops fired justly and they were put in a bad situation. How did that situation kind of come about? I wish that I had confidence to something like that would take place. Yeah.

Well, I don't, I mean, I don't think they're interested in that because part of the goal is to scare people, right? I mean, that's part of the goal of the Stephen Miller immigration approach is to scare people and terrorize them in a certain sense so that, you know, immigrants, quote unquote, self-deport. and so that, you know, people, like, stay in their lanes and don't come out in protest and are afraid. So, you know, this is, like, it's fair to say it's training, and I think that's true. But I think it's also true when you talk about, like, the command culture and what's coming from the top. Like, I don't think we need to invent, like, I think we know. Like, we see that, you know, we see directly that this is how they want these officers to be. I mean, they immediately justify any of it, right?

And we'll make up lies. I want to play Christy Noem, just to show you how what she says doesn't even approach reality based on the videos that we can all watch with our own eyes. This is A8. Let's listen to that. You asked about a shooting that we just had in Minneapolis, Minnesota. It was an act of domestic terrorism. What happened was our ICE officers were out in enforcement action. They got stuck in the snow because of the adverse weather that is in Minneapolis. They were attempting to push out their vehicle and a woman attacked them.

and those surrounding them and attempted to run them over and ram them with her vehicle. An officer of ours acted quickly and defensively shot to protect himself and the people around him. And my understanding is that she was hit and is deceased. We're continuing to gather more information, but this goes to show the assaults that our ICE officers and our law enforcement are under every single day. These vehicle rammings are domestic acts of terrorism. We're working with the Department of Justice to prosecute them as such. We will continue to protect our ICE officers and in cooperation with other law enforcement agencies as well. You've seen me in the last couple of days deploy over 2,000 more officers to the Minneapolis area.

So the picture she paints there is of, oh, these ICE agents were innocently trying to push their cars out of the snow. And this maniac domestic terrorist tries to run them down with her vehicle. Fortunately, one of them was quick on the draw and was able to neutralize the threat. Like, this is not remotely, not remotely what happened. Like, it's not even close to what happened. And that's the thing that's so crazy, I mean, it's like, we can all watch it. We all know that this is a blatant total fabrication. Trisha McLaughlin, who put A-9 up on the screen.

I mean, hers was, you know, similar, not much closer to the reality. She says, today, ICE officers in Minneapolis were conducting targeted operations. When rioters began blocking ICE officers and, One of these violent rioters, weaponized for vehicle, attempting to run over our law enforcement officers and attempt to kill them an act of domestic terrorism. An ICE officer fearing for his life, the lives of his fellow law enforcement, and the safety of the public fired defensive shots. He used his training and saved his own life in that of his fellow officers.

Okay. There is no indication that there was any riot. Like, the idea that it's to me a stretch to say that the one officer was in danger, but to indicate that anybody else was in danger, there is zero evidence of that. And then, of course, immediately, leaving this woman, any reasonable person look at this video would say she was just trying to get away, right? She was not trying to kill anyone. She was literally just trying to exit the scene.

And so then to label her a domestic terrorist and say, oh, she's part of these rioters, blah, blah, blah. I mean, again, it's just a fabrication. It does not bear any resemblance to, you know, video evidence that has emerged at this point. Yeah. I mean, the snow one is particularly egregious. Again, I think we waited a long time to play the government's narrative because I didn't think it was all that material here. And I do, you know, that's part of the issue. They're not exactly trustworthy. You talked about Chicago and in multiple other instances where they failed in court. I learned that one the hard way on Seacot. Whenever they said that every single person had been a verified gang member, but, you know, comes out that like half literally aren't and or, you know, the there's no particular evidence. So this is partially why I do not very optimistic about this situation, in particular because the level of information that we came out here from the federal authorities does

– I mean, just look, it almost – it always didn't mean something. It's like I'm not going to sit here and say the government always lies to you or obviously that generally was the case. Like you should always be very, very skeptical. But the snow one in particular makes it so they're like, how can we? we really take it seriously when you say this. That's why the video evidence and the testimony and the body camera footage is ultimately what I think matters the most. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wali. And I'm Hurricane de Bolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast's

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but feeling stuck? Just spinning your wheels and old routines and bad habits. I'm Dr. Lorry Sandus. And in a new year series of my show, The Happiness Lab, I'm going to look at the science of getting, well, unstuck, unstuck at work, unstuck in your relationships, and even unstuck inside your mind. I am the absolute worst culprit when it comes to getting into these ruminative loops and just driving myself crazy. We'll look at ways to reignite your sense of purpose, rediscover your values, and get more creative. We'll also explore how to design a life that feels more fulfilling. It's sort of like the game of life. I don't know if you ever played that game.

Oh, my gosh, yes. You take the car along and you try and get money, and you try and get degrees, and you try and get to the end where either you have a mansion or a ranch or a shack. And once you get to retirement, you're done. What about the whole path along the way? So join me to get unstuck in 2026. Listen to the Happiness Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your shows. I'd be remiss if we didn't put up the president of the United States. He said, I've just viewed the clip of the event which took place in Minneapolis.

It's a horrible thing to watch. The woman screaming was obviously a professional agitator. And the woman driving the car was very disorderly, obstructing, and resisting, who then violently, willfully and viciously ran over the ICE officer, ran over, okay, ran over, who seems to have shot her in self-defense. Based on the attached club, it's hard to believe he's alive, but is now recovering in the hospital. Situation is being studied in its entirety, blah, blah, blah.

Lucky he's alive, Sagar. recovering in the hospital. And the Minnesota state police chief said when he arrived at the scene, he asked them, he asked the agents, federal agents that were on the scene, is anyone else injured? And they said, no, just the woman. But now the president of the United States says that, oh my God, he got run over and is in the hospital recovering and thank God he's going to make it. But he's so lucky he escaped with his life.

I mean, again, just making stuff up. Totally making stuff up. They apparently, he apparently did go to hospital, got checked out. Oh, I don't doubt that he went to the hospital because he needs to go to the hospital for his case. So he can, you know, I mean, that will be something that he taught. Oh, I went to the hospital and I had to get evaluated. There's video of him walking perfectly fine off the scene. And again, his colleagues said, no, everybody's fine.

I mean, he wasn't taken out. He walked off the scene. I don't doubt he went to a hospital. I'm sure he did because his lawyer probably was like, you need to get your ass to the ER. right now. But the idea that he was run over and it's hard to believe he's alive. Now recovering in the hospital. I mean, none of that is, that's not real. That's not real. I didn't say it was credible. Yeah. I mean, look, I agree, unfortunately. And I mean, you know, at the risk of reiterating myself again, this is the difficulty. But I mean, look, we can end on this. Like, do you not

think that every single Democratic politician immediately calling this murder and for prosecution doesn't rise in some way to not the same level because they're not in power. No. But it is kind of important. But they don't know anything either. I actually haven't seen, I haven't seen anyone say it was murder, but I don't doubt that there were Democratic politicians that said it was murder. I think if you look at the video, I think that's a reasonable conclusion to come to.

I do not think it's reasonable. I don't think it's a, okay, I don't know it for sure what a jury will find because I can know the future. I think any individual person couldn't look at that video and say, yeah, I think that's murder. I think that's an absolutely reasonable conclusion to come to. I do not think it's a reasonable conclusion to come to that she was rioting and they were trying to push their vehicles out of the snow and she tried to run them over. Like that's just invented a reasonable interpretation is that she was murdered. I think, I think, you know, look, if you acknowledge that somebody got hit by a car that you could say that somebody could reasonably think that they're about to get run over.

It's not just as far as she should have never happened. That's different than say what they said was that she was trying to run over multiple law enforcement agents. Sure. Yeah. Is that not correct? No, that's not. That does not bear relationship to reality. The, you know, asserting something that is, of course, disputed that in your view, this was murder and it was not reasonable self-defense, that is in connection with reality.

So yes, I think those two things are completely different. Well, I'm not so sure because that kind of belies the entire idea of self-defense. I mean, look, again, you know, to reiterate, like, everything that usually becomes so clear to the liberal lie does not usually work out in a court of law. But Saugert, and that's part of why. But here's, but here's the difference, though. Okay. What I'm asserting is that what I think it's murder. And I think you would, I think you would agree that if you look at that video, that is a conclusion.

You may not agree with that conclusion. but that is a conclusion you can come to based on the facts that are portrayed in that video and that we know. Well, it is not a reasonable conclusion. I think Bill, I think it just completely ignores any self-defense argument. It's like, to me, it's like a, like, like, you're not listening to what I'm saying. You're not listening to what I'm saying. I don't think it's, it's definitely not open and shut. That much is absolutely the case.

I just think any time a vehicle touches a law enforcement officer of acceleration. Can you say that it is not a fabrication of reality and an invention to look at that video and say he murdered this woman he he intentionally well because that's what that's what murder it lies is intention no he did no he did not have a reasonable self-defense justification do you think that it is like a fabrication of reality to look at that and say that i mean i i can see it but a reasonable person can't see how a person may see it but i just thinking their cars out of the snow and like a maniac she came in and was trying to run them all over okay those are are two very different things.

Taking one side of a contested question is very different from inventing some bullshit that is utter and complete nonsense. Those are different things. Well, yes, they certainly are. I guess then it comes down to responsibility and or if you immediately want

to lay out an expectation of conviction. And I mean, this gets to my moral certitude point, which is frankly the thing that bothers me the most about the left is like when we do it, it's fine because we're always in the, you you know, in the right, and it kind of ignores that there are violent, genuine, like, violent disagreements by, in some cases, the rest of the population, or at least half of the

population over these things. And that's where, you know, the legitimacy and the entire idea about the question of immigration kind of comes into this. So that's why I'm bringing it back to, like, was it really responsible to immediately just say, like, oh, yeah, it's absolutely 100% murder? Like, no, if I'm a public official, I don't think, you're a YouTube pundit, just like me, right? We could say whatever we want. We don't have no power. But for people who are also in power to immediately come to that conclusion and also set some expectation where if this officer is not indicted, which I think a very good shot of, either in state and or in federal, especially federal and even in state, I would give it at least a 50-50 chance

of no indictment, let alone going to trial. I think that that is irresponsible, yeah, because you're setting an expectation, just like in all the other cases that I mentioned, where people have absolute certitude that something happened. And they were totally wrong. And the jury there is totally disagreed with that. That expectation should absolutely be set. And people should be deeply upset. Well, why then? So people will riot after it's not found? No, no. Because people should. People should expect accountability from their paid, taxpayer paid agents of the state should be held to some kind of standard. And we have not seen that happen a single time. Not a single time have any of these ice thugs been held to any standard. So it is absolutely correct and appropriate

to set an expectation that there should be accountability. And look, again, can we say what will happen? No, should he be indicted? Should it go through the process so that this debate can play out and a jury of his ears can decide? A hundred percent. And so, I think it is not only appropriate, I think it is the responsible thing to do to set that expectation that he should be indicted, that there should be an open and transparent process and that it should go through the justice system so that we can have confidence that there is some level of even theoretical accountability with these guys instead of what you get from the trial.

Like, I genuinely believe Saugher that if this man had pulled this woman out and executed her on the street that Trump and Trisha McLaughlin and Christy Noem and J.D. Vance would all justify it and say we stand with them. And this was a domestic terrorist and she deserved it. I 100% believe that. And so if I think it is the baseless, the lowest expectation we could possibly have is that there is some sort of a process that plays out where, you know, can go through the justice system and he can have his day in court and he can have his representation and he can make his case and a jury of his peers can decide well i i don't agree with that actually at all uh the idea that you're going to just execute somebody literally on video and it would be

would a certain percentage of people maybe uh do i think the leaders would yes well no i think that the reason that people are i mean you can acknowledge there is an actual question here of self-defense that's part of the reason why that this is a debate literally at all nobody argued about george floyd or at least at the time uh they certainly didn't now they know until his toxicology report came out Which, again, a legitimate question to be able to argue at trial, but that's not the same thing. So, no, I think that that's completely inaccurate, honestly. And it really belies, which, I mean, I'm going to bring it back to the certitude. Like, it's not a, it's not a, it is not a decided question, really either way.

I think some people. Well, okay, you're saying trial. I think it should potentially be indicted. Or I think it should potentially go to a grand jury. A grand jury can decide to send it to indictment whatsoever. But I'm saying if you set an expectation. from the beginning that non-indictment itself is going to be a travesty of justice. I think that that is kind of setting things up for rioting, just like what happened with

Brianna Taylor, where it became a 100%, no questions asked, had to go. And then it didn't happen. And of course, people did riot violently. And then same thing in multiple of these other cases where, so yeah, I think setting that expectation is bad, considering of the entire history that I just laid out, where people just make up their minds immediately afterwards, set an expectation. expectation. And then when people riot violently, then it's excused because justice wasn't served, even though it went through a proper justice system. So would you say, okay, when you have

lots of politicians on the right saying that, you know, these protesters are domestic terrorists, would you say that then that is creating the conditions? Yes, it's bad. Yeah. You know, for them to be killed, for them to be assaulted. Yes, exactly. Well, I don't think it's good. The reason I'm saying this is because in the past, when you've had, for example, you know, shooters who kill people and cite like some, you know, right-wing influence or whatever, we say this person is responsible for their own actions. But in this case, you seem to be applying a different standard, which is that if you have people come out and say that, you know, this is going to be a reaction. Okay. I mean, yes or no question. Do you think that there's going to be riots if she doesn't, if this guy doesn't get invited?

I have no idea. There aren't riots yet. there's peaceful protests. Well, it's 20 degrees cold in Minneapolis. There's peaceful protests. That's what I see. But wouldn't you say that it's, you know, if individual people can commit lawless acts, like that's on them, it's not because Rokana said that, you know, this was a murder. No, I don't think it's a murder or whatever.

Yes, people have absolute, have absolute responsibility for their individual actions. And a culture that is set is not the same legal standard whatsoever. I would never claim that. I don't claim that left or right. If it's a violent leftist murder somebody, he's a psycho. Okay? And that's absolutely on him. You can, and I think justifiably, I think we always do,

is to try to look at broader context in which permissive behavior and or culture leads to something, kind of what I was talking about earlier. So, yeah, I mean, that's why the domestic terrorism thing. Look, people should be afraid, okay? It's not, like, I'm not going to sit here and say that it's good. Branding people immediately as domestic terrorists. It's like, well, what does that mean?

because domestic terrorists belies the exact type of actions, which I have opposed, for example, let's say like with the National Guard and overt militarization, I think that law enforcement, you know, at its best, should always be handled more on an individual basis. There are genuine questions, crazy questions, for example, in a place like Minneapolis where the state and the local government genuinely does not believe that people can be illegal. What do you do if you have a federal government who says that people are illegally and should be deported? That is actually a crazy question. That's, I mean, we have reconciled with that in our past, too.

So there is not any scenario where you can't have federal agents trying to enforce federal immigration law. Would I say that this is being done in a better and an appropriate way? Absolutely not. And I've said for this, I think, entire case that for, or throughout this entire year, that one of the things that they have done has turned it chaotic. And that's part of the reason why much of the polling is going the way that it does. I do think, as you just said, we can acknowledge the responsibility ultimately of people's

actions. And then we can also look at, I mean, you know, it's kind of like with the, with January 6th, like would it really have happened if Trump had not made it into a thing? Now, is he individually responsible for the actions of people like taking a shit on Nancy Pelosi's desk? No. But is he at least like bled and bred into a culture with his rhetoric and the way that that happened? I think everybody agrees with that. And I'm pointing out the same thing whenever it comes to what I think will largely lead to, if you set an expectation of this is the only way that justice can be served. And notice, again, these people do not have a good track record and are usually incorrect whenever it comes to, again, every high profile case that they have decried as murder, and that usually

whenever something doesn't work out the way that they wanted to, you know, excuse and in some cases encourage or look past or belittle, you know, the type of violence, which is happening, I think that's a problem. And so, yeah, I mean, I think I'm pretty consistent on this question. One last thing I want to say just about this piece about, like, you know, Jacob Fry saying get the fuck down and all of that is, you know, I know you don't support sanctuary city policies, but I just want to be clear about what they are. There's no instance where you have a mayor or a governor or any sort of elected representative who was, like, sent in police or the National Guard to, like, block ICE agents. Yeah, they just don't cooperate.

In fact, in many of these instances, like in Chicago, oftentimes, like, the police officers were sort of actively assisting ICE or at least, you know, what they would say was, like, keeping the peace. But basically, you know, dealing with the protesters and allowing ICE to do their thing. Okay, so I just don't want people to get the impression that you have. Jacob Frey or anyone else who's actively blocking ICE from operating. Ice was operating in Minneapolis, right? Now, they say, we're not going to use our resources to, you know, to help you. You know, there are these certain restrictions between what our law enforcement can do and what, you know, and the way that they can assist, we're not going to collaborate in these

are, okay, that's all, that is all correct. But the general idea is like, no, you, like, obviously you have the right as the federal government to come in and operate, just we do not have to, we are not obligated to spend our city, state, local resources to assist. So I just want to be clear about what we're talking about here in terms of the interaction between the local officials, the local law enforcement, and the ICE and other federal agents. Sure, but Tim, Tim Walst did say he's, you know, potentially putting the Minnesota National Guard on that's because of protest. That's because of protest that's because of the protest that's what he he's afraid of because he got a lot of heat for

not bringing the national guard fast enough after um george floyd right so yeah which was insane what did he say that they're full of 19 year old line cooks i object to the national guard being brought in here as well but because like it's very clear to me he means that to make sure that the protests don't get out of hand oh i didn't i didn't necessarily take it that i could be wrong i need to look at you know maybe i'm twitter brain didn't watch too short of a clip but that's immediately kind of what I saw. And I was like, well, you know, look, we can argue all day. I think sanctuary city policy itself is in and of itself crazy, being proud of literally just not enforcing federal immigration or not caring about that. Again, you know, I believe also in

locality. And if that's what you want to do, like you can do that. If that's what you guys want to spend your taxpayer dollars on, be my guest, I guess. But as long as it's like actually yours and not the feds. But this does, I think, open that question also, though, where you were talking about earlier about confrontation is, well, in a scenario of National Guard and or active, what is it, like actively trying to impede, which I think there have been instances, let's say in Los Angeles or others, of pre-announcing, well, weren't there were like pre-announcing where raids were, I need to go check the details before I look exactly what it was. So anyways, but there have been, if there are more instances like

that, I think most people would say that is actually a. crazy in a type of situation. Yeah, but what do you do about that? But there haven't been instances of that. No, there isn't instances of leaders who have been either pre-announcing and or warning people about where certain federal immigration raids are from, especially if it's a state and or local official. Okay.

Yeah, I mean, look, that is literally like trying to obstruct and or stop federal immigration enforcement, actively literally aiding people who are here illegally. They're free speech, right? Provide people and information. But what I would, I would just say that there, there. I mean, fine, let's set that standard for all criminals. I'm not aware of any instance where there has been, in fact, like I said, in all the, I think it's much more the case that the local police officers have assisted federal agents in their activities and, you know, generally like see themselves sort of like in solidarity with, with ICE and CBP and whatever. It's just, so it's, it's not that, it's not that Gavin Newsome or Jacob Fryer or whatever.

are saying you can't come in and enforce immigration laws. They're just saying it's a federal law. You enforce it on your own time. That's right. All right. Should we move to Venezuela? Yes. Hi, I'm Dr. Priyanko Wally.

And I'm Hurricane Dabolu. It's a new year. And on the podcast Health Stuff for recent, setting the way we talk about our health. Which means being honest about what we know, what we don't know, and how messy it can all be. I like to sleep in late and sleep early. Is there a chronotype for that or am I just depressed? Health stuff is about learning, laughing, and feeling a little less alone.

Listen on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hi, I'm Ed Zittron, host of the Better Offline podcast. And this January, we're going to go on the road to beautiful Las Vegas. Nevada to cover the Consumer Electronics show, Tech's biggest conference. Better Offline's CES coverage won't be the usual rundown of the hottest gadgets or biggest trends, but an unvarnished look at what the tech industry plans to sell or do to you in 2025. I'll be joined by David Roth at Defector and the writer Edward Ongueso, Jr., with guest appearances from Behind the Bastards Robert Evans, it could happen here's Gare Davis and a few

surprise guests throughout the show. Listen to Better Offline on the IHart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever else you get your podcasts from. Hey everybody, it's Michelle Williams, host of checking in on the Black Effect podcast network. You know, we always say New Year, New Me, but real change starts on the inside. It starts with giving your mind and your spirit the same attention you give your goals. And on my podcast, we talk mental health, healing, growth, and everything you need to step into your next season, whole and empowered. new year real you listen to checking in with michelle williams from the black effect podcast network on the iHeart radio app apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast this is an i heart podcast guaranteed human