Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 4/26/24: Don Lemon CONFRONTED On Media Bias, Bernie 2020, RussiaGate

Episode Date: April 26, 2024

Our first Counter Points Fridays premieres NOW with former CNN anchor Don Lemon. Emily and Ryan ask him about his reporting at CNN, Bernie, Social Media censorship and more! To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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The Russia coverage was not great. The Russia coverage was not great from who? CNN, from corporate media. Yeah, I mean, just the question about Donald Trump didn't have facts on his side. I actually think that the Russia coverage on CNN was good. I think that Bernie Sanders, that wing of the Democratic Party, actually did as much, if not more, damage to Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump. The Nikki Haley comment, was that an excuse to purge you?

Welcome to CounterPoints. I'm Ryan Grim. I'm Emily Drushinsky. We know that you are used to seeing us every Wednesday, but... It's Friday. Here we are. We're excited to premiere the Friday edition of CounterPoints, where we'll do long-form interviews, we'll do debates with some big names. So make sure to subscribe over at BreakingPoints.com for early access to every episode. All right. And for today's show, we're joined by a familiar face, former CNN anchor Don Lemon, who's now the host of The Don Lemon Show. Don Lemon,

welcome to CounterPoints. Thank you. I thought you guys said you had big names on this program. No, in the future, we'll have big names. After me, but you're next. Thank you guys for having me on. I appreciate it. Of course. No, thank you for being here. You're too humble, Don. But we want to ask you, your show is streaming everywhere. Our first question for you is basically, you spent a long time in what a lot of people would describe as the corporate media, what we would often describe as the corporate media. And now you're doing an independent show.

So if you could tell us a little bit about what the difference is between doing the news at this big corporate behemoth and doing the news as an independent anchor where you really get to, I'm sure you had a lot of creative control and freedom at CNN, but now you really have no restrictions, nobody telling you anything. It's all you.

Well, it's two things I think that are most important. One, you said freedom. There's freedom, editorial freedom. I probably had the most editorial freedom on my own network than anyone because of the time of, that was the last show on the air, right? And it was at night, so I had a lot of editorial freedom. Maybe the bosses weren't even watching at that time.

So, you know, but I have even more freedom here to say and do whatever I want, and it's mine. I get to do, I get to cover whatever I want. There was a time when I'd have to ask and get permission from everyone just to be on your show. And they would, you know, it would go through the S&P and they'd say, oh, this is not worthy. This is worthy. I get to decide what's worthy. I get to decide where I go. So I am my own person. But the most important thing I think is that this is a community. In independent media, you build a community. It's grassroots from the ground up. People are actually engaged with you. They feel that you are a part of their family, so to speak. I mean, people do say,

I feel like you're a part of my family because I used to go to sleep with you every night, and so on and so forth. But also, it's not just me sitting on an anchor desk you know pontificating it's me talking to the viewers trying to figure out what is interesting what they want um and also i have the complete freedom just to be honest with them and they appreciate that and just to be myself i do a show i i do this show which is in my studio now and you know it's it's a nice beautiful studio in manhattan on park avenue it's great but the show that gets the most engagement is a show that i do for my living room i do a live show at five o'clock every day lemon live in my living room every day where i talk about what's happening in the news and i take

questions and comments from the viewers live from the comments section. And people are so engaged. They call themselves the Lemonheads or Lemon Nation. And that's what I really love about it. So that's the most important thing. I get to build a community. It's not just a one-way conversation. And also I have complete editorial freedom. When you talk to anchors at CNN or MSNBC, so I write for The Intercept when I'm not doing this program,

and I'll often be talking to them about stories that we've done. And I'll often hear, God, we could never put that on air. We just couldn't do that. And I'm curious how often you kind of ran up against those constraints as an anchor and whether it was about ratings or whether there were other kind of political or commercial interests that would require you just kind of internally or within your staff to say, yeah, we just can't touch that? Well, you know, I don't know if I ever had that problem. And I don't want to, I'm not going to disparage my own network because I loved working at CNN. I love the folks there. They're the best journalists in the world, I believe. But as I said, I had more editorial freedom than I think anyone on the network. And if I wanted something covered, then I could cover it. Even if I couldn't devote an entire program to it,

I could devote a segment to it. Or just, you know, I could just come on the air and say, this is important to me. And I would just say it in a monologue and then be done with it. But when you work for company A, you do things the way company A does it. If you work for company B, you do things the way company B does it. And I think that we develop, regardless of what network we're in, we develop sort of, you know, we have this myopic lens. We have blinders that we do things the way that it is done. And I find that since I've left, that my media appetite has, my media diet has, you know, changed.

And so I feel like I'm much more aware of what's going on in the world because I'm not just focusing on what are the big things in the news that are going to make air on this particular network. And so there were things, yes, there were things that I would like to cover, but they just didn't bubble up high enough right into the things that we were discussing on the network. And I'm not sure that's necessarily bad. That's just the way that it was done. If you look at Fox, Fox has, you know, they have a different editorial plan or edict than CNN. CNN has a different one than MSNBC, ABC, NBC, CBS.

For the most part, they're the same when you come out, they're covering the same stories, but they somehow do it differently because they do it the way that their company does it. So it wasn't really a problem for me, but I understand your question. There are certain things that just probably didn't bubble up. And when we were thinking about this interview, Ryan had an idea to play this clip of Noam Chomsky that is really popular on the left, but this is kind of a perfect segue into it because he talks about the Chomsky theory. Whether or not you agree with it, Don, it's interesting, is that basically a lot of the different cable networks speak in one voice ultimately because there's almost a class bubble that a lot of journalists, especially at the cable networks, find themselves in.

So let's just roll this one minute of Noam Chomsky and then we'll get your reaction done. And I have to say, I think I know some of them. Well, I know some of the best and best known investigative reporters in the United States. I won't mention names, but whose attitude toward the media is much more cynical than mine. In fact, they regard the media as a sham and they know and they consciously talk about how they try to play it like a violin. If they see a little opening, they'll try to squeeze something in that ordinarily wouldn't make it through.

And it's perfectly true that the majority, I'm sure you're speaking for the majority of journalists who are trained, have it driven into their heads, that this is a crusading profession, adversarial, we stand up against power, a very self-serving view. On the other hand, in my opinion, I hate to make a value judgment, but the better journalists, and in fact the ones who are often regarded as the best journalists have quite a different picture. And I think a very realistic one. How can you know that I'm self-censoring? I don't say you're self-censoring. I'm sure you believe everything you're saying.

But what I'm saying is if you believe something different, you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting. And, Don, had you seen that clip before? What did you think? I hadn't seen that clip before. Well, listen, I mean, Noam Chomsky, I would not want to go up against him, right? I think he just basically sort of said what I said in different words. If you see something or you believe something, you know, you find an opening, you sort of squeeze it in, which is basically what I was saying in my previous answer to you, that there was something I found important. I would find a way to get it in. And obviously, look, I'm no longer in traditional legacy media.

So he says, if you believe something, if you believe differently, you wouldn't be sitting where you're sitting now. So I'm not sitting where I was sitting before. So obviously there was something else that I believed. And, you know, I have a question on that, actually, because I don't think either of us is interested in getting into any Drama with your old network, but I do think the Nikki Haley comment what I found it hilarious Frankly, but we don't have to get into it

All I want to say is was that an excuse to purge you do you feel like that was do you think that your former colleagues? cared deeply about Nikki Haley's feelings or do you think that was sort of a fig leaf to start purging maybe allies of Jeff Zucker? What's your read on that whole situation? Because you, I mean, you did, I think, apologized for it. And everything sort of spiraled from there. It seemed like from the outside, at least. Look at my face. In your prime. I will let your comments stand. If you think I think that you are very smart woman and I will just let it stand. In her prime, no doubt. Right. Of course. So one of the criticisms I had of CNN over over the years is around its coverage of the kind of left wing of the Democratic Party,

and in particular, missing the kind of energy behind the 2016 Bernie Sanders campaign, and then missing it again the second time around. 2020, Bernie Sanders almost seized the nomination, and it seemed to catch the media flat foot at both times. I'm curious what your editorial meetings were like throughout 2016 and 2020. Or was there just so much Trump that there just wasn't kind of the oxygen for the Democratic primaries? I want to make sure I understand what you're saying, Brian. What are you asking me? That you think that Bernie Sanders wasn't given his due in traditional media?

Is that what you're saying? Yeah, and let me tell you a little story about that real quick. So in February of 2020, you remember Rebecca Cutler, the old head of CNN Talent? She reached out to, or somehow we got connected. I was still at The Intercept, I was at The Intercept at the time. And she said, look, we have really missed the boat on covering the left wing of the Democratic Party. Like we need people who have covered that before and who understand this rising progressive energy. And so CNN brought me in and said, look, we need to get you on some of these

programs because we need somebody who can speak to this obviously now rising energy within the Democratic Party. And then that happened a couple of times. And then Bernie lost the South Carolina primary and got wiped out on Super Tuesday. And they said, actually, nevermind, we're good. We don't need to worry about this kind of progressive wing. Maybe in four years if it bubbles back up. But there was a fear inside CNN reflected through Rebecca's outreach that they had missed something fundamental about the country that was represented by the rise of Bernie Sanders. I don't know what conversation you had with Rebecca, who I know, and so I won't get into that. But I think if there was any outreach for you to cover something that was happening in the news or the zeitgeist politically, I think that

Rebecca should be commended for recognizing that. The second part is that I've never heard anyone, anybody say that CNN should be more left. So you know, hey, there's a first time for everything. I didn't necessarily think CNN was left. I thought that CNN was about facts. I think CNN has the best journalists in the world. But I also think, you asked me what my editorial meetings were like. I mean, no one was trying to push Bernie Sanders, at least in my editorial meetings, and I would venture to speak for the network now. Well, I'll speak for myself.

I don't think that anyone was trying to push Bernie Sanders out. I think that Bernie Sanders may have had this sort of outsized influence with a certain segment of the Democratic Party. But all polls in 2016 pointed to Hillary Clinton. All polls in 2020 and public sentiment pointed to Joe Biden. And so what was shocking, I think, to myself was the reaction from Democrats to the nomination of Hillary Clinton instead of Bernie Sanders in 16, especially in 2020. You know, I couldn't get to gauge it because I didn't get to go to the conventions. I think that was around, you know, because of COVID. But here's the shocking thing. So we, so networks have editorial calls or meetings with campaigns, right, to figure out how you're going to cover the

campaigns. When I, in my experience, meeting, having those editorial calls and meetings with the Trump folks, they knew every single thing that was happening in the meeting. Every single thing that Don Lemon had ever said about Donald Trump, his folks knew about it. They knew where to place him. They knew who they wanted him to talk to. They knew who they wanted him to call into or do in-person interviews. By contrast, the Clinton campaign was so above it that, you know, hey, you know, they had no idea what I was saying about Hillary Clinton or whatever they were, you know, she did not have as much media outreach. She got to pick and choose where she went and rather than just doing what Donald Trump did. So listen, I think that the Hillary, but yet and still, the public wanted Hillary Clinton.

They didn't want Bernie Sanders. So I say that to say when after all of, you know, Republicans did not love Donald Trump. They held their nose and they voted for him. All of the never Trumpers, all of the people, you know, from Ted Cruz on down, when he became the nominee, everyone got behind him. When we were at the convention, it was Trump, Trump, Trump, Trump. It wasn't Jeb. It wasn't, you know, Cruz. It wasn't Rubio.

It wasn't any of those people. By the time we got to the Democratic convention and Hillary Clinton was a nominee, people were yelling, um, Bernie, Bernie. And we were like, what the hell is going on? So I think that Bernie Sanders, that, that, that wing of the Democratic Party actually did as much, if not more damage to Hillary Clinton than Donald Trump. So look, I think that's, I think that's an interesting question to be asking to say what I think that's an interesting question to be asking. I think Bernie Sanders is a fantastic politician. But I do think that there is a lesson in it for Democrats that you have to get behind the person who is the actual nominee. And you cannot have sour grapes of the person who did not become the nominee. That's how the process worked.

So I know that people are upset and they're upset about the progressive wing and they don't think it gets covered enough. But this is where we are. The nominee or the person is Joe Biden. The nominee or the person then was Hillary Clinton. I think the Bernie Sanders progressive wing of the party should have gotten behind them. And that's the reason, one of the reasons, the main reasons that we're in the predicament that we are now and that we had a Trump presidency. But I guess the point would be, if CNN anchors are at the 2016 convention saying, what the hell is going on?

That's kind of reflective of the point that I was making, that you guys should have seen this coming and should have known what was going on, where this, where was this anger coming from? Just because we're realistic about who the nominee is doesn't mean that we didn't see it coming. Bernie Sanders was not going to win. Bernie Sanders was not going to be the nominee. So I turned to my producer and said that.

I'm not saying this on the air, but maybe I did say it on the air. I was surprised because Republicans fall in line. Democrats fight each other. Democrats usually wet the bed. I'm sorry. Bernie Sanders was not the nominee, nor was he ever going to become the nominee. And I know that people are upset by it, but that's the truth. It's the same thing for Republicans. Nikki Haley is not the nominee. She's not going to become the nominee. Donald Trump is a nominee, regardless if you like it or not. The guy's in court. And guess what? Republicans are

going to fall in line. And if Donald Trump becomes the president again, it'll be because Republicans fell in line. One of the things I think is cool about, Ryan and I have both been critical of you, you've probably been critical of independent media. This is the first time we've ever talked in the past. But one thing that I considered a low point, honestly, in media coverage of Donald Trump was the segment with you and Rick Wilson talking about credulous boomer rubes. And I wonder, honestly, if there's an argument that sort of seeing other Americans through that lens and maybe now in independent media, it's easier not to, but seeing other people through that lens of, you know, credulous boomer rubes laughing at- I'm going to talk to Rick Wilson about that. That was not my assessment of that. I was laughing at

the Ukraine on a map thing. That was my point. I did not make any comments about Americans. So you'll have to talk to Rick Wilson about that. But I guess there's an interesting mirror going on where the Trump supporters see that clip and they feel like they're not being represented. Bernie people feel like they're not being represented on CNN. And to the point about the polling that you mentioned, just one point on Joe Biden's polling. Joe Biden was not polling ahead. You had said that Joe Biden was polling ahead. Joe Biden was in the toilet the entire time. He finished fourth in Iowa, fifth in New Hampshire, got annihilated in Nevada. Where was he when he got to the convention?

Yeah. And then he won after $175 million in free media between Nevada and South Carolina. And then he wins Super Twos and he won the nomination, no doubt about it, but he wasn't polling ahead, uh, before that. Is, is the sort of establishment media doing a good enough job of connecting with the country in the way that after 2016 newsrooms reckoned both with the sort of Bernie Sanders phenomenon, he won my home state of Wisconsin, for example, and the Trump phenomenon. And they said, for example, Dean McKay at the New York Times said, we don't get religion. Has that gotten any better? Has it gotten worse? Is the media in a sort of insulated, you said your studio is on Park Avenue, sort of a good symbol right there. Do people in the media know people, love people, respect people? I don't know if my studio is on Park Avenue.

What does it have to do with anything? I mean, your studio's in Washington, D.C. Park Avenue's part of America. I live in here. No, I don't disagree with that. Stephanie Ruhl said the same thing, actually, but I am asking you, basically, we make an effort to talk to people in different parts of the country.

That's all I'm asking. Does the media do a good enough job? On a class basis, not even a, go ahead. I think the media does a great job of talking to people from all parts of the country. I mean, when I turn on, look, I'm not in legacy media anymore,

but when I turn on legacy media, I see the left wing of the Democratic Party overrepresented. I see the right wing of the Republican Party overrepresented. There's always panels about what do MAGA people think? Nobody understands those people. And they're overrepresented in media. The same thing happened with the Bernie Sanders thing. The Sanders, the left wing of the party, it's overrepresented. Bernie Sanders is not getting a fair shake. I think that it's overrepresentation. I just think like, listen, time to move on. Bernie Sanders was not the nominee

in 2016. We cannot go back and litigate it. Trump's the nominee now. We've got a lot of unearned media, earned media in 2016. It's over. We can't go back and litigate it. Trump's the nominee now. I've got a lot of, you know, unearned media, earned media in 2016. It's over. We can't go back and litigate that. The same thing with 2020. That's over. We can't go back and litigate it. What we can do is try to be better moving forward.

So I do feel, honestly, now that I'm in independent media, I do think that the fringes of the parties, both parties, are overrepresented in the coverage in independent media and in legacy media as well. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes, but there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country, cops called this taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley

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and your guide on good company. The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there,

and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide, and hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So why do you think legacy media is fading and independent media is rising? What's your what's your theory of that case? Well, I don't think it's because they're so terrible the way that they are covering the news. I think they do a really good job of covering the news

because they have a ton of resources. I just think it is the way, I think it's the advertising around it because media is so fractured now. There are other places for advertisers to put their money. And there are just other, it's just other forms of media. Now you have way more channels. You used to just be, you know, you had three, ABC, CBS, and NBC, and then cable came along. And then all of a sudden the internet came along and then social media came along. I just think it's fractured. So I'm not saying, I don't believe that it's some indication that traditional media is bad and therefore people aren't tuning in. I just think there are more places to tune in now. And so the audience is shrinking. I'm also curious if you've talked to Elon Musk since he canceled the

partnership. Have you heard anything from him at all? You know, I have a text message from him right now. Well, on that note, actually, Elon, Ryan has done some reporting on this, Elon's censorship in different parts of the world with X. What do you think is the right balance when it comes to content moderations? Obviously, one of the biggest challenges facing lawmakers, facing businesses, executives in Silicon Valley. You now have a show that is on some of these streaming platforms. How do you think about that sort of balance between disinformation and just allowing people to speak and get everything out there?

Elon's doing that sort of in the States now, not necessarily in other parts of the world, but what do you make of that, Don? I'm not sure what your question is. If you can just tell me what the- I guess, put it this way, one of the disputes that you had with Musk was the definition of censorship versus moderation.

You would say there ought to be moderation. He was saying anything beyond taking down illegal posts is censorship. So where would you draw the line? Let's say all of a sudden Saudi Arabia comes to you and says, here's $45 billion. We actually want you to own Twitter rather than Elon Musk. How would you go about figuring out the difference? I think platforms that have moderation obviously do better than platforms that don't. If you look at what's happening with Twitter now, then one would understand that. If you look at platforms that moderate, even the independent media who's on YouTube has moderation, right? Even TikTok,

I know people are upset because China owns it, but there's moderation there. There's moderation on Facebook. There's moderation on Instagram. And I think that I would draw the line at hate speech. I would draw the line at anything that puts people in danger. And I would draw the line at

when people who go into synagogues or churches or supermarkets say that they admittedly became radicalized in part because of social media. I think you need to look at that and you need to take it seriously. So I would draw the line at that. And if you're going to if you want to say it's it's okay, look, this is, it's Elon Musk's bat part. It's his bat and ball. He can do whatever he wants to do with it. But I do think that there, you have some degree of responsibility to keep people safe.

And you have, you should be responsible enough that you listen to those who disagree with you and that you have different voices on your platform. Every organization has rules that must be followed and if you're going to be on that platform then you need to follow the rules. He even has content rules on his platform and the content rules on his platform should be followed. And if they're not, then why are they there? So I think you would draw the line really at hate speech and anything that puts people's lives in danger. And a lot of what's on social media does that. And the Constitution protects a decent amount of hate speech, if not most hate speech.

So do you think it's for a business reason? Because I actually think that's an interesting argument that for a business reason, these platforms should be engaged in content moderation because their consumers are, feel unsafe, feel miserable when they're on these platforms that are riddled with hate speech. Or is it just sort of ideologically, maybe it's a combination, we should keep people from hate speech? People should be protected from hate speech? I don't think content should be pushed to young girls that make them feel less than. I don't think that content should be pushed to young men that makes them feel that they can go and shoot up supermarkets and kill people,

kill Jews, kill blacks, kill gay people. So I think for human reasons that there needs to be moderation. I think for common sense there needs to be moderation. That whole idea that free speech is Wild Wild West, I think that's BS. I don't think that's what our founders meant when they said freedom of speech. You're free to say whatever you want, but you must suffer the consequences. We had Seymour Hersh on this show last year talking about his reporting that implicated

the CIA in blowing up Nord Stream pipeline. Is that beyond the bounds of disinformation from your perspective? Because there are some people that would say this is Russian propaganda, this is disinformation. Is that something, how do you sort of be on? I think it has to be true if it's going to be on your platform. And again, if you, people can create the rules of whatever they want to on their platform, your organization, whatever organization you belong to, you have rules. I have my own rules. CNN has rules. MSNBC has rules. Fox has rules. Exxon Corporation has rules. Everyone has rules that their employees or people who are going to take part in whatever platform that they have, or if you're going to work there, they have rules. And I think you need to follow those rules. And I think that that

company gets to set what those rules are. But I think at the very least, especially when it comes to journalism and it comes to the freedom of the press, that before you put it out there, you need to figure out whether it's true or not. You just can't throw it out there and expect it to be okay. I don't believe that. I think most sane people would agree with that. Let me ask you a totally unrelated question. Just personally, my strength lies in writing and reporting, kind of behind a desk typing away. Inkstained wretch. Inkstained wretch. The whole TV presenting thing is not like, it's not the thing I'm really good at.

You're quite good at the whole TV thing. Even people who would disagree with whatever you're saying, like as a presenter, you're quite skilled at it. So what tips do you have for people like me and Emily, who this isn't really our thing, but we find ourselves in front of this camera anyway. Look, my tip is that you should just be yourself. And, you know, if I can just be honest, you guys were saying, you know, where's the teleprompter before? Like, I would say challenge yourself. You don't need a teleprompter. I just think that you should be Ryan and Emily. And I also we did we did skip the teleprompter before. Like, I would say challenge yourself. You don't need a teleprompter. I just think that you should be Ryan and Emily.

And I also think- We did skip the teleprompter, actually. We did it live. Ryan and Emily. But I also think, listen, I'm just going to tell you, there were many things, and there are many things in the media that I disagree with,

but I'm also tethered to reality. And so I may want the outcome to be something different, i.e. Bernie Sanders, but it is, as my mom says to me all the time it is what it is and so when it is what it is you know you make your case you argue it or whatever and then you move on and so I think that many times especially in independent media I find people getting stuck in arguments and old arguments and things that are no longer in the zeitgeist and are no longer important anymore. And I think it's important for, so my advice to you would be to get with the program, to go out and talk to those people who are on college campuses to see what, you know,

why they're on, you know, either for or against protests, no matter how you feel about it. To talk to the politicians. I would encourage you to talk to more people who are in traditional media. And if you can change their minds about certain things, I would say, do it. I would say, go on those shows. But I would say the most important thing is to have an open mind about everything,

about guests who come on your program, about what you're talking about, of what you're trying to convey to the audience. It's just to have an open mind and to be curious, be less judgmental and more curious. I think that's good advice. Well, I was hoping for tips more about how to deal with all these cameras and the studio setting. You should see the tie you took off before. The transitions, you know, the basics of this stuff.

Let me just tell you this. Okay, Ryan. I'm wearing a light blue shirt, right? Dark shirts don't really work that well. See, that's the kind of stuff I need. You need a nice white crisp shirt always looks good with a nice tie. Excellent. Blue suits, black suits on television are a little drab and stated a little too. Now we're talking.

So you need, like, do a blue suit. Or like me, you know, do something that's on the blue or that gives a little pop of color. Don't be afraid. Don't think it's good for people to think that you're, you know, you know what I'm saying? Wear something that's a little bit out that maybe your manhood is being questioned because you wear something i'm comfortable with the manhood so i'll go with that yeah and also a nice haircut haircuts everything when you're a guy make sure you keep it neat and clean he gets accused of having a toupee yeah that's true it is real um and i am never going to criticize what a

woman wears because you guys get enough of that i so i'd like to i like to do that to the guys because they don't know how you how you ladies live you got to go to hair and makeup you can't we can wear i can wear ryan you can wear that suit every day and no one would ever question in fact i do every day she would get shit from everybody yeah she's wearing this green thing she doesn't dress up she doesn't what's going What is she doing with her hair? Guys don't get that. You can just be, you know. Well, I'm the exception, but yeah. I should be blessed.

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on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes 1, 2, and 3 on May 21st and episodes 4, 5, and 6 on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. They've never found her.

And it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never got any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on Good Company, the podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi, for a conversation that's anything but ordinary. We dive into the competitive world of streaming, how she's turning so-called niche into mainstream gold, connecting audiences with stories that truly make them feel seen. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. It's this idea that there are so many stories out there, and if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content,

the term that we always hear from our audience is that they feel seen. Get a front row seat to where media, marketing, technology, entertainment, and sports collide. And hear how leaders like Anjali are carving out space and shaking things up a bit in the most crowded of markets. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Tucker Carlson said recently that, I don't know if you guys overlapped at CNN, but he said recently that social media really changed the way people on cable news had conversations, that before social media, you sort of were able to speak more freely because you weren't constantly thinking about how things were going to get clipped on Twitter, now X, or at the time, Facebook. And it just kind of, I mean, I know that you're putting your show actually on X, on all of the streaming platforms now. So I think people have, journalists have adapted,

but I'm curious what you think of that. Do you feel like there was an era in media where people actually could have more open conversations without the fear of sort of getting written up, whether it's conservative media, liberal media, the blogs, and it was just more, it was easier to talk to people? I don't think it's just media. I think it's everywhere. I think even in Washington, I think our leaders are afraid of being criticized. It used to be now people don't care anymore because it doesn't have the outsized influence that it once had.

With Twitter, people would be concerned about, oh my gosh, people on Twitter are going to kill me. I'm going to be trending or whatever. People used to worry about it. I don't think they worry about that anymore. But I think that happens everywhere. I think that happens in Hollywood. I think that happens on television for sitcoms. I think that happens for comedians. If you want proof of that, I think go back and look at the episode of SNL with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor talking about the N-word, right, where they actually use the word. You can't do that on television anymore. I wasn't, but I do think

people were, you know, journalists are afraid of, you know, being, you know, getting criticized on Twitter. I think maybe there are probably executives who were afraid of criticism on social media because they're afraid of advertisers. I think that does happen. So yeah, I think it happens across all media and throughout all industries that people are concerned about, you know, their presence on social media.

I don't think that that's any secret, nor is it, you know, I don't think it's any big revelation. You know, I'm curious, when you're out in the world and engaging with the public, what are the kinds of questions that you often get? Like when people recognize you, they come up to you, they want to say something. Selfies. Can I get a selfie?

Look, let me tell you, I was in cable news. So guess what people say to me when they first see me? I see you in the airport all the time? No, not at all. My mom loves you. My grandmother loves you. Can I get a picture and send it to you? So you got the idea of the age range of the people who are watching. Now that I'm in independent media, people say, you know, people talk to me about what I'm doing

now because young people are actually tuned into social media. They're tuned into YouTube. Some of them are on X now, not as many as before. But I think that people actually get recognized more now recently, in recent years, than when I was on CNN. Before, after the pandemic, after Donald Trump, after George Floyd, there was a time when I could not walk down the street without people. And then that sort of faded because, you know, that just sort of goes away.

You're not in people's living rooms. So people were at home during the pandemic. So all they were doing was watching CNN and I was on all the time. And so now, just getting back to normal times, I think people recognize me now more from social media and digital streaming media than they do from when I was in traditional and cable. Yeah, that's super interesting, especially the younger audience part of that. And actually, one question I had for you was about that. They just, I don't know, they just

asked me, what are you doing now? I miss you on CNN. Where can I see you? Yeah. You lived through a really seismic change when it comes to not just CNN, but kind of the media in general. And it was fascinating watching it from my perspective because I was always part of this kind of left wing of observers who was saying mainstream media needs to drop this like fake objectivity, this view from nowhere, this view from God and acknowledge that they have biases and speak from that perspective and earn trust that way. That was a very commonly held view for many years on the left. And then CNN and MSNBC, CNN really did that during the Trump administration. And I remember

agreeing with a lot of what CNN was saying, disagreeing with a decent amount of it, particularly the endless focus on Russia. But I also remember thinking, whoa, that's a little bit much. You guys are starting to sound like kind of a Democratic mouthpiece. And I also recognize like they're doing kind of what I asked them to do for years. But now that they're doing it, not so sure I like it. I'm curious what it was like for you to be involved in that. Because you're biased, Ryan. Well, I am.

I am. Oh, yeah. Listen, I don't like that. I don't believe in that whole, I don't believe in the premise of, listen, I'm not trying to be confrontational. I don't agree with the premise of what you're saying and when people put it in that context. Because listen, we all view life through a certain lens, whether we're journalists or not. Whether you're a woman, a man, black, white, Jewish, Palestinian, whatever, we all view the

world through our own lenses. And it is okay to come to be a journalist and to have a point of view. That's okay. It is actually okay to be a journalist and have an opinion. There's opinion journalism. So I don't believe in that BS about, you know, journalists just have to sit there and go, what do you think? What do you think? Okay, fine. That's not how it works.

I think that, you know, I said you were engaged. I think that when that was the zenith, I believe, of CNN when during that time. And it may haveith, I believe, of CNN during that time. And it may have looked, I think, that we had moved to the left or that we were somehow becoming an arm of the Democratic Party. That was only because of the Republican side and mostly Donald Trump and the MAGA wing of the Republican Party. The facts were not on their side. So by the simple fact of pointing out

that someone is lying, that you're getting misinformation, it may make people think that, oh my God, you must be on the Democrat side. No, you're on the side of truth. Donald Trump- I know we have to wrap, but the Russia coverage was not great. The Russia coverage was not great from who? From anyone. The Russia

coverage wasn't great from anybody. CNN, from corporate media. Yeah, I mean, just the question about Donald Trump didn't have facts on his side. I actually think that the Russia coverage on CNN was good. I think the Russia coverage in the media was good. I don't think that it was bad. You may disagree with it. That's your bias. But I actually think the coverage was good. And I think that people are smart enough to discern what's true and what's not, what's real and what's not. And so I don't think that the coverage was that bad. I don't fall into that category. And I think people were, look, I think people sort of romanticize the time that we were in, like people romanticize, you know, COVID and the protocols that were in place and this was bad

and that was bad. They don't remember the time that we were in. And so I think that the media did the best job that they could at the time. I don't think that it was terrible. We can always look back from being armchair quarterback, Monday morning quarterback and saying, oh, you should have done this, should have, would have, could have. We didn't. And again, my advice, accept things the way that they are, learn your lesson, and move on. Yeah, I was personally wrong. Like some of my early Russia coverage was personally wrong on that.

That's okay. You said it was wrong. That's what happens. And people will say I was wrong. I think, you know, where I was, if we made a mistake and we got something wrong, we would say it. That's the whole point about having an independent media. But you also have to have a media that has rules and that's accountable. That doesn't happen on social media. There's no accountability. And I think that, you know, MAGA folks realize that. And so they put out disinformation.

But has has CNN ever said that there actually was not never proven collusion between the Trump campaign and the I don't think that they ever had. The Washington Post did a whole series rebutting its own coverage, interestingly enough. Beyond CNN, I think that there are accounts of collusion, but you'll have to ask CNN. Well, on that note, Don, you said a couple of minutes ago that you don't want to be confrontational, but being confrontational is fun. And we really appreciate, we really appreciate your willingness actually to answer some of these questions. Thank you for your tips. We appreciate it.

Thank you very much. It was great talking to you guys. Yeah, we appreciate it so much. Don is the host of The Don Lemon Show. It's streaming everywhere now. Thank you so much, Don, for joining us. Thank you. Ryan, we could have kept doing that for three hours. At some point, it's like I cannot relitigate the extent of CNN's Russia collusion coverage, which I could argue for hours was terrible. Like we just are not on the same page on that. But I thought it was good to get some contrast. Yeah. And my view on that was all has always been that, you know, Putin was clear that,

you know, he hated Hillary Clinton. But what CNN and others were saying is that there was active collusion between the Trump campaign and Putin. And there was just never any evidence to support that. There was that one meeting in Trump Tower that got played up a ton. Actually, CNN botched one of those stories. I think they did the Alpha Bank. Anyway, all that aside... We don't need to. Back when I was at the Huffington

Post, we had MSNBC, CNN, and Fox on all the time. Yeah. And I left there in 2017. And so, after 10 years of cable getting blasted at me all day long, every day. I basically have not watched cable since then, other than what clips get put up on Instagram or, or Twitter or whatever else. Yeah. And I think my, I, my mental health and my life is much better for it. So it's, but it's, it's interesting to talk to Don knowing that he's like a big cable guy, but also not having, he's not actually, wasn't actually part of my media diet unless he got clipped onto Twitter saying something crazy. And I really meant what I said when I mentioned that Rick Wilson clip, which we had it pulled up, but our conversation was going, so I didn't roll it. We can put it in post. Lemon is laughing hysterically alongside Rick Wilson and Waleed, just laughing uproariously at this very classist impression of a Trump voter. And that's why I actually just want to say I genuinely appreciate that Lemon came on the show.

I don't think he knows who the hell we are, but I genuinely appreciate. I know he's promoting his show, but we're not ever going to people don't, aren't willing to do hard things to promote their shows, frankly, we're never going to have some of these hard conversations. So good for him for coming on. Yeah. Books and new shows are good things because it forces people to get out and talk to people that they wouldn't otherwise talk to. A hundred percent. And that's why we can't tease exactly what it is yet. But one of the hottest books of the last year, last several years, honestly, we're trying to set up a debate about. Was it that hot?

We're talking about white royal rage. We can say that, right? We can say. Oh, my gosh. Every bookstore I walk past in D.C. has like a stack of them. It's been rebutted in like all of these different publications. It's been promoted in all these different publications. I'd say it's pretty hot. Yeah, it's a good one.

We'll have a good conversation about that. We're still working on the scheduling. Ryan is white, previously rural, and enraged. So he's ready to rumble with that conversation. But I hope everyone enjoyed this first foray into some long form. I mean, we've done very long interviews before. We did Ted Cruz for like a half an hour. True, got to get Ted Cruz back here.

I bet he'll come. Fridays, that's what we'll be doing. Long form, debates, having some of these conversations. Now, you can't get to everything in a discussion with Don Lemon. It would take us six hours, probably, to do that. But I hope some of the contracts kill him. The world probably doesn't need that. Also, getting Don Lemon to respond to the Chomsky clip that he had never seen.

Beautiful. I like that. Beautiful. And that's what you get here at CounterPoints and BreakingPoints So make sure to subscribe to get the version of the show, the full version of the show early. Other than that, we'll see you back next Wednesday and next Friday. There you go. See you then. Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community.

I was calling about the murder of my husband. The murderer is still out there. Each week, I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Sometimes as dads, I think we're too hard on ourselves. We get down on ourselves on not being able to, you know, we're the providers, but we also have to learn to take care of ourselves. A wrap-up way, you got to pray for yourself as well as for everybody else but

never forget yourself self-love made me a better dad because i realized my worth never stop being a dad that's dedication find out more at fatherhood.gov brought to you by the u.s department of health and human services and the ad council looking for your next obsession listen to high I know. Yank my bank account. Correct. And one thing I really love about this is that she's celebrating her daughter. Oh, I know. Listen to High Key on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.