Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 4/5/24: Media Gaslights 'Uncommitted Voting', Is Real Estate Tech Company Flow A Scam?

Episode Date: April 5, 2024

Spencer Snyder looks at Uncommitted Voting in the Democratic primary and the history of registering votes of 'no confidence' in America.  Then James Li speaks to Ben Bergman from Business Insider about his new residential real estate tech company Flow, bus is it another Scam? Subscribe to Spencer: https://www.youtube.com/@SpencerSnyderSubscribe to James Li: https://www.youtube.com/@5149jamesli To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Look, Uncommitted got 13%. That's not nothing. But in 2012, where there was no big Uncommitted campaign against that incumbent president, Barack Obama, uncommitted got 11%. Now, I'm not a big mathematician, but 11% and 13%. I don't have the budget for a giant touchscreen TV to do pundit math on, but I do have a pen and paper. So let's do some pundit math. In 2024, in the Democratic primary in Michigan, uncommitted received 13%. This uncommitted received 13%. This uncommitted vote being part of an effort to scare the Biden administration into discontinuing the US's support for the assault on Gaza in which Israel has killed about 30,000 people.

Others have speculated the number could be as high as 200,000. In 2012, the last election in which a Democrat, Obama, was up for reelection, 11% voted uncommitted. Those numbers are pretty close. And actually, in 2008, about 40% voted uncommitted in the Democratic primary. And as a matter of fact, in 1996, 86% voted uncommitted in Michigan. Now, I can understand why someone might look at the 2012 number and think, well, what happened in 2024 isn't terribly unusual. I do not understand, however, how a data person at a national

news agency could look at those numbers and think they're comparable because they're not. Those numbers are for completely different reasons. They have nothing to do with each other. The 2012 number is as irrelevant as the 2008 number and the 96 number. I will explain. Now, Michigan might have been the first state in the uncommitted campaign, but since then, hundreds of thousands have voted uncommitted around the country, routinely outperforming all the other Democratic candidates combined. And we're not done with primaries yet. Some people are unmoved by this. Some voters logged protest votes against President Biden on Super Tuesday, but in many places, proportionally, it was a smaller share than in 2012.

Obama, you will recall, won re-election. But the uncommitted vote in 2024 does say something serious and unique and could absolutely help inform how the general election is going to go. Now you might have heard people say something like, Michigan is a purple state. We are a state that frequently votes uncommitted. Yeah, it does, kind of. In 1996, in the Democratic primary, 123,000 people voted uncommitted in Michigan.

In 1996, Michigan switched to an open primary, in addition to holding a caucus. However, the National Democratic Party didn't recognize open primaries for presidential elections, so all the candidates removed their names from the ballot. The options in the primary that year, vote uncommitted or write in a name. And so uncommitted got 86% and the other 14% were write-ins. 2008 in the Michigan Democratic primary, that's an interesting year because that year saw 238,000 people vote uncommitted, almost 40% of the vote. That's because that year Michigan tried to challenge the DNC rule. See, Michigan wanted

to have more influence, so they moved their primary earlier that year to January 15th, which was before Super Tuesday, but there were only four states allowed to vote before Super Tuesday and Michigan was not one of them. So, in response to this, pretty much everyone took their name off the ballot. So if you wanted to vote for Edwards or Obama or Biden, you had to vote uncommitted. So in those elections, the option to vote uncommitted

was a way to vote for someone who, for whatever reason, wasn't on the ballot. But as a protest vote, there was a lot more to this. And this is actually an important topic that is generally underexplored. The option to vote for none of the above is something I think everyone should have the right to do. This year, the entire country saw that

in the Republican primary in Nevada, Nikki Haley was defeated by none of these candidates. I don't think there is anything that could possibly represent the spirit of Nikki Haley's participation in the Republican primary this year better than this image. But none of these candidates is on all of Nevada's ballots, and none of these candidates has won in the past. In 2014, in the Democratic primary for governor, Nevada Democrats chose none of these candidates. There's actually been an effort to remove this option from the ballot because supposedly it disenfranchises

voters through its spoiler effect. And generally speaking, I think the spoiler effect and labeling certain candidates as spoilers is a really toxic element in our political discourse. However, if we're being generous, it can be at least an accurate diagnosis if you are truly talking about someone whose voters might plausibly draw from someone else. So in the case of RFK, for example, I think a number of his supporters would vote for

Trump, whereas someone voting for Cornel West is less likely to vote for Biden no matter what. But let's think about someone who votes for none of these candidates. If you are so dissatisfied with everyone on the ballot that you put on clothes, you get in your car, you drive to your polling place just to mark on your ballot that you hate your options and ostensibly don't care who wins. You're only showing up to register your dissatisfaction. If that person goes to vote and realizes they can't choose none of these candidates, their vote would probably go to a candidate who didn't have much of a chance to win anyway, and for sure you're removing the ballot option that actually represented that person's desires, which is some way of expressing non-consent. But on the occasion, when none of these candidates does well or even wins, it certainly has a

delegitimizing effect. Which I assume is a reason people have tried to get this option removed from the ballot in Nevada since this option has no actual consequence. Because what happens if none of these candidates wins, the election then defaults to the person who came in second. So in 2014, the 30% who voted none of these candidates were tossed aside and the election went to this guy. Where this would really become a threat is in the case where a vote of non-consent had actual consequences. Now there are places where a none of the above vote would trigger a new election. In Colombia, for example, if a blank vote receives a simple majority, not only does it trigger a new election,

all of the candidates on the ballot are precluded from participating in that new election. How do you think that would change the political landscape in the US if we knew that we could go to the polls in November, vote blank, and then get a new election where neither Trump nor Biden were allowed to run. Leave a comment. Do you think in such a scenario blank would win? Because I can't even fathom such a hypothetical if people thought that the current candidates amounted to an etch

a sketch they could shake in November. But for right now how you'd express your dissatisfaction is by voting third party, alternative candidates, or by staying home, or in the states where you can, voting uncommitted or none of the above. Would you consider voting uncommitted? Love it, respect it, encourage it, help people do it. No. I can understand why people want to, but I won't be. Why not? Yeah, yeah. Honestly too, the whole situation there is horrible.

I'm just not informed enough to be able to commit or not commit. But what can you do with your vote that would actually make a difference? Yeah, during the primary, I get it. I would consider it in the primary. 11% in 2012, 13% in 2024. What's the difference? Way fewer people have voted uncommitted against Joe Biden this time than did against Barack Obama in 2012. Which means that this time around is also immaterial.

It also means that the other uncommitted votes in other states are probably not worth paying attention to. This is incorrect. Dearborn, Michigan has a huge Arab population. In 2012, their congressional district voted 13% uncommitted. There was no effort to unite in an uncommitted vote, and so Dearborn's district voted uncommitted at the same rate every other place did. Whereas in 2024, they voted 57% uncommitted. Now, after all the death in Gaza, and the knowledge that the US is doing things like authorizing the transfer of $.5 billion dollars of war planes and weapons to Israel which includes 1,800 MK-84 2,000 pound bombs. Now the use of a 2,000 pound bomb can

amount to a war crime because the blast radius is so big. For an example of the deadly reach this bomb has, here is Yankee Stadium, and here is where you would not want to be. Whereas aid to Gaza as of March 7th was only $180 million. And so in 2024, Uncommitted got 101,000 votes in Michigan, or 13.2%. Alternative ways you could compare 2024 to 2012, 101,000 votes for Uncommitted, Obama only got 174,000 votes in 2012, 101,000 votes for uncommitted, Obama only got 174,000 votes in 2012. But I think the most useful comparison is this.

Twenty years ago, in 2004, Kerry won Michigan by 160,000. 2016 was famously close. Trump won by 11,000 votes. And in 2020, Biden won by 154,000 votes. So this number is pretty close to the margin of victory in an important state. It just so happens, because of this uncommitted vote, people have the chance to use the Democratic primary for something other than participating in a predetermined outcome. Which is to say that because the numbers are big enough, because there is a big enough

campaign, you can register a vote of non-consent and be heard in a way that you normally can't. And in 2024, it would seem this is the most effective way to use the Democratic primary to actually say something. And that will do it for me. My name is Spencer Snyder. If you found this video interesting, make sure you are subscribed to Breaking Points. You can also check out my YouTube channel where I talk about media and politics and things. Link in the description. Liking and sharing always helps. Thank you to Breaking Points. Thank you so much for watching, and I will see you in the next one. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. To most people, I'm the girl behind VoiceOver, the movement that

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Campers who began the summer in heavy bodies were often unrecognizable when they left. In a society obsessed with being thin, it seemed like a miracle solution. But behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children was a dark underworld of sinister secrets. Kids were being pushed to their physical and emotional limits as the family that owned Shane turned a blind eye. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. In this eight-episode series,

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$350 million investment from Marc Andreessen and his venture capital firm, A16Z. We own 3,000 apartments that we're running. We have over 150 employees. The business model that we have is a vertically integrated system. We own the buildings, we operate the buildings, we build the technology, we build a community, and we build the teams that run them. Vertical integration, technology, community, buzzword after buzzword.

So to try and figure out what Flow actually is, I recently went undercover inside one of their apartment buildings. Yes. Do you really? That video is on my YouTube channel 5149 with James Lee, definitely check it out. But today to give us even more insider knowledge into Flo, we have with us a friend of the show, Ben Bergman. He is a senior

correspondent at Business Insider, where he was the first reporter to set foot inside Flo's first apartment building, which is located in Fort Lauderdale called Society Las Olas. Welcome, Ben. Thanks. Good to be here. All right. I want to start first with the original A16Z's $350 million funding announcement of Flo, which I would say was imbued heavily with this rhetoric about solving America's housing crisis, the need for more human connection. But then the solution, it seems like now that they've presented is just luxury condos. So I don't know, maybe it's just me that's missing the sauce. But can you help us square those two ideas? How do they connect? Yeah, I mean, this wouldn't be the first time that Silicon Valley

oversold something or made it seem more grand than it really was. But yeah, when it was announced, A16Z, Andreessen Horowitz, one of the most prestigious, biggest venture firms out there said, you know, this is what we're going to do to solve America's housing crisis. And so a lot of people have been curious, what exactly are they going to do? Or is it like a rent to own model? Are they going to use crypto? Or how are they going to use tech? And when I actually visited the building, when I was the first reporter to visit in November, it actually was pretty low tech and not unlike a lot of other buildings that I've visited that aren't flow properties. Yeah, so they outlined four or Newman specifically has outlined what he calls the four pillars of flow. He's talking about a branded technology company, a real estate company. There's also potentially going to be

a financial services component and a mechanism that will quote unquote share some of the value or the venture's value with the value creator. In this case, it's the renter. I know they only have that one building so far that's been branded, but based on your behind the scenes access, how many of these pillars have they been able to incorporate in the business model so far? And are they looking, if not, are they looking to do more? Yeah, I mean, it's still very much in the preliminary stages. And even the building I visited, it is the farthest along, but it's not yet branded as a flow property. No one walking by or even living there would really know that it's associated with Adam Neumann. So I'd say that these things are pretty conceptual. Unlike WeWork, Flow is moving very slowly.

And that's by design. WeWork, I think a lot of people associated with Flow feel like move too quickly. They were pushed by SoftBank, if you accept that explanation, to just expand so quickly. So Flow is trying to do it much slower. So can you talk to me a little bit?

Were you able to see any of the technology side of things? I know that there's this app that they're working on, which in your article, you described it as, a Flow executive described it as a lubricant of the building. I've stayed in apartments before, not even nice apartments, but they also have an app. So how is this that much different? Yeah, I mean, I was able to view the app or at least a prototype of it. And, you know, a lot of modern buildings, yes, you can pay

rent and you can, you know, request maintenance and other things. But this is different. For one thing, it's all seamless. It's much easier to use. It also allows you to connect with other residents. It could be something that you could use at all flow properties. It allows you to do commerce, to promote your business, and to have playlists in the building. So yes, a lot of buildings use apps, but the idea is that this would be a lot better than that. Got it. And to go to the second pillar, the real estate component of it, is there something different to this business model than just say traditional real estate investing? Well, not really. And that's part of the

puzzlement around this, right? Because real estate is very asset heavy. You have to own the buildings. That's a business that's been around for a long time. It's certainly not a tech business. It's much lower margins. There's not any secret. It's not scalable. So just like we work, I think there's a lot of questions about how this would be a tech company given that you have to have the real estate. How quickly are they able or are they wanting to incorporate new properties? Because I know, based on my research, Adam Neumann owns a number of different properties all over the country. So what's the pipeline looking like in terms of branding it as a flow property. Yeah, so he owns about five of these, but certain ones of them are under contract,

so they can't be run by flow yet, but eventually they would be. But there's also other buildings where he can operate more quickly. So they've been vague about the timeline. This one I visited will be the first one this year to be actually unveiled as a flow property. But they haven't even said when they're doing that. They've said early 2024. And then after that, maybe a couple more.

And the financial services component of it, what is that looking like? Is that an incorporation of crypto? Or are there other things? You know, is there going to be some kind of model where the renter is somehow going to be more tied to the property than just the traditional, you know, paying rent? There was talk of crypto when it was first announced and Adam Neumann did have some crypto ventures. But that doesn't seem to be the case as much now. I think the idea is that, you know, for most people, the biggest expense every month easily is what they spend on rent. So they are already controlling that.

And they can use that in many other ways to help, you know, you spend money in other ways and also make it all sort of an app on your wallet. And also just like you get credit card reward points, you would get rewards for being loyal there or to businesses they select. Or there's also the example of, you know, they know that you are really into dogs. So they could help you find dog walking services. Or if you're a dog walker, they could help you advertise that. So they could help you find dog walking services. Or if you're a dog walker, they could help you advertise that. So they really feel like that's underutilized in apartments right now. What does this community building aspect, were you able to talk to any of the residents at

Society Las Olas? What's been their experience? What are they looking forward to? And is this really something that renters are looking for? I was able to talk to a couple of residents and granted the residents I talked to were selected to me by flow. So they were naturally predisposed to like it, but they did really love being there. And they found that this social commerce aspect,

so to speak, was so lucrative for them that they would live there or at least have a place there, even if they weren't living there, because they said, you know, they've been able to meet a lot of customers and really help grow their business. And, you know, I think that's certainly true for certain businesses. Like I talked to one guy who was selling insurance, and there you're trying to constantly meet people. If you're just a professional not trying to meet customers, it's not as clear how flow would help you. But this is something they're very into. And I think actually makes more sense than WeWork. I've worked at WeWork for a long time,

but I've never actually really met anyone else at WeWork aside from my immediate colleagues. But I think when you're spending all day and all night with people in a building, you're much more likely to interact with them. So it sounds like this building is all encompassing. Obviously, you live there, but there's also an office component, you have working spaces, they definitely have recreational spaces, pools, lounges, and things like that. So is the idea here that you just never have to leave? Yeah, I mean, that is what I was told several times by residents is I never have to leave because yes, it is all there. You wouldn't need WeWork, right?

Because there is like a nicer or as nice co-working space there. You would have all your friends there, you would have the amenities and you have so many things going on. I mean, they do help plan trips and other events. But the idea is that everything would be under the flow umbrella. And then the ownership aspect, this idea that Adam Neumann threw out there, letting the tenants build equity. Is that something that's actually on the table at Flow? Or is this more of just rhetoric from the initial announcement to say, hey, we're going to solve the housing crisis? This was probably something that got the most attention, the most head scratching, because Adam Newman and also Marc Andreessen did allude

to this, that Marc Andreessen said, well, I'm kind of marveling at how people will pay rent for 10 years and never own anything. But that really seems to not be the case. Adam Neumann's camp has been very wary of any connotations with rent to own. And what it would look like is much more like a loyalty program, like a frequent flyer program. So you would have loyalty to the building, but not any sort of actually getting equity in your apartment. Okay. So I don't know about you, but I'm not personally sure how Flo is going to do anything to solve the housing crisis. But I do want to touch on the business side of things.

So they raised $350 million initially from Andreessen Horowitz. What do you know? What is the current valuation right now? What's the long-term goal specifically? Is there an exit strategy? Is this going to go in the direction of WeWork or is this the next potentially Wall Street juggernaut in the real estate sector? Well, so yeah, they raised $350 million from Andreessen. Adam Neumann also put in $350 million. That was at a billion dollar valuation. And that's still the valuation that has not been new funding. And I think they're trying to, you know, I'm sure that Andreessen and Adam Neumann did not get into this to make a $1 billion company. They would like a much more valuable company. But they say at least they are trying to build the business slowly,

really pay attention to the details rather than what happened with WeWork, which is trying to make it a trillion dollar company or just something that grew so quickly that they kind of lost track of. Yeah. Do you think this is something that they're eventually going to offload? Or is it going to IPO? I mean, I think that's a ways off. I don't think that's really the thought now. I mean, the thought is to build it into a huge brand and a huge business and then worry about that later. All right. Got it. Yeah. So then eventually every city will have a flow property. Everybody's going to love it. It's going to be kind of a utopian little slice of utopia, if you might, in every single city.

Yes, exactly. All right. Well, so we'll have to see how that all shakes out. But Ben, I know you're on Business Insider, but anywhere else in particular you want to point viewers if they want to find more of your work? Yeah, you can just find me on Twitter at the Ben Bergman. I'm on Twitter X, I guess it is now. Awesome. All right. Well, Ben, thank you so much for coming on the show today.

Really appreciate your time and your insights. Thanks so much for coming on the show today. Really appreciate your time and your insights. Thanks so much. Anytime. If you'd like to learn a little bit more about flow, I also did a deep dive documentary style investigation in which I even went undercover at society, Los Olas. The video is posted on my YouTube channel,

51 49 with James Lee head on over, check that out and give me a follow. The link will be in the description below as always like to thank you for your time today and keep on tuning into Breaking Points. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. I'm also the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. You might hear that term and think it's about celibacy. But to me, VoiceOver is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's flexible, it's customizable, and it's a personal process. Singleness is not a waiting room.

You are actually at the party right now. Let me hear it. Listen to VoiceOver on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. DNA test proves he is not the father. Now I'm taking the inheritance. Wait a minute, John. Who's not the father? Well, Sam, luckily, it's You're Not the Father Week on the OK Storytime podcast, so we'll find out soon.

This author writes, my father-in-law is trying to steal the family fortune worth millions from my son, even though it was promised to us. He's trying to give it to his irresponsible son, but I have DNA proof that could get the money back. Hold up. They could lose their family and millions of dollars. Yep. Find out how it ends by listening to the OK Storytime podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Medal of Honor is the highest military decoration in the United States. Recipients have done the improbable, the unexpected, showing immense bravery and sacrifice in the name of something much bigger than themselves. This medal is for the men who went down that day. On Medal of Honor, Stories of Courage, you'll hear about these heroes

and what their stories tell us about the nature of bravery. Listen to Medal of Honor on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.