Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 6/23/25: CNN & Fox War Propaganda, Dems Absent On Antiwar Fight, John Mearsheimer Exposes Israel Lobby

Episode Date: June 23, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss unhinged CNN and Fox war propaganda, Dems absent on antiwar pushback, John Mearsheimer exposes Israel lobby.   John Mearsheimer: https://www.mearsheimer.com/ Scott Horton: https://scotthorton.org/   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an iHeart Podcast. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club. The new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts, where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week, I'm joined by authors, celebs,

book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian.

Quite an honor. You know what's funny? When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from nobody gives a shit who you're sleeping with to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? Hi, I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here.

Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today,

and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Let's turn to the media now. There are big reason why we're actually in this mess, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Let's turn to the media now. There are big reason why we're actually in this mess

and you can look from CNN to Fox News for choice clips of everybody celebrating this war, talking about how great of an idea it is. Let's start off with Van Jones, the alleged progressive over at CNN, dispensing some great democratic wisdom. Here's what he had to say before the strikes went off. He's buying himself some time and some room.

I was also in the Holy Land very recently. I think progressives underestimate how dangerous Iran is. Iran is not a normal country. Normal countries don't blind women because they showed some hair. They don't empower little gangs and proxies to surround a country and fire rockets and rape people. So Iran, the two things are clear. The what, they cannot have a bomb and the why, because

they say death to America, death to Israel, and death to all the Jews. One of those should offend you if you're progressives. At least one should offend you. And so the question though is the who and how. Is Israel going to take out this nuclear capacity by dropping people there who blow it up? Or is America going to take it out by dropping a bomb that blows it up? But the what and the why are clear, and I think progressives should get on board with that. We cannot have a nuclear armed Iran.

I was in the region, you were in the region. This is a very dangerous power that cannot get a nuclear weapon. He just got back from the Holy Land, he's got all this wisdom to drop on all of us. For progressives specifically. What else he got for us, Van? Yeah, tell us more.

By the way, if you continue to watch CNN, it's not just the esteemed Van Jones to make that case. They also trot out CNN analyst John Bolton, former Trump National Security Advisor. Here's what he had to say. Were you surprised that President Trump took such decisive action? Well, let me say this unequivocally. I think President Trump made the right decision for America to attack Iran's nuclear weapons program.

And I think we're on the verge of potentially seeing regime change in Iran as part of that. I think this is a huge change in the Middle East. It was a decisive action. It was the right thing to do. I thought somebody should do it for a long time, but better late than never. Better late than never, such decisive action. I mean, look even at the framing of the questions. Continuing on CNN, let's put this up there on the screen.

Analysis, they write. U.S. strikes mark a stunning demonstration of military might and presidential powers. You know, stuff like this really annoys the shit out of me because let's think about it. Given the trillion dollars that we pay, yeah, we better have some goddamn military might and a presidential might.

Of course, we are the capital of the global empire. It'd actually be humiliating if the military might didn't work considering how much money went into the development of the massive ordinance penetrator, the B-2 bomber, the amount that we spend just maintaining this entire thing. It's like, all of the assumptions and things

that are built into that, but this is why we are where we are, and Fox is far more to blame because literally they're the ones that Trump is relying on and imbibing all of this BS from, but if you're a quote unquote centrist boomer, this is what you're ingesting all day long. And that's what leads to the bipartisan support for war. That's, you know, especially just echoing

what Scott just said here. The framing is everything. And if you listen to this crap, you would think they're 10 seconds away from a nuclear bomb. Just bullshit, it's complete fake, it's wrong. Well, and just even if you take Van Jones' framing here of they can't have a bomb

Okay, well, you know what was working and much more likely to succeed at preventing their intention of developing a nuclear weapon here Diplomacy the type that Obama engaged in the type that Trump was engaging in before Whoever came in and convinced him that you should have this poison pill of absolutely zero enrichment. That's what actually has a chance of success. But the minute that you say and you commit the military to we must do whatever it takes to prevent even the possibility of them developing a nuclear weapon, something by the way, and I really want you guys to think about this, a couple months ago, was this the top of mind priority?

No, it's being completely fabricated right now in real time. But as soon as you commit, that we have to make sure, we have to preclude even the possibility that they could develop a nuclear weapon, you are in regime change city, which is exactly where we are. And you can hear the cynical weaponization

of identity politics from Van Jones. Oh my God, the chance, we must invade them because of the chance and the horrible treatment of women. Hey, how are women treated in Saudi Arabia is one example. How does it go there? How are ethnic minorities treated in our great friend and allies Israel? How are people treated there in the West Bank? And how's that genocide in Gaza going?

Do we need to, you know, is there any priority there for you to stop shipping the American weapons that are enabling those atrocities from? Of course not. Of course not. Of course not. It is all so incredibly cynical. And last thing on the CNN point, because it's really important that people understand what is being done to them. On that panel with Van Jones, I saw Scott Jennings there nodding his head along. Was there a- Who wants to bomb you, actually advocated for Trump to bomb you.

Yes, correct. And celebrated. Died in the wool neocon, delighted right now at everything that's going now. I didn't see a single anti-war voice on that panel. No. Like, why do we need to hear from John Bolton? Why do we need to hear anything from John Bolton right now?

The number of people from the past who have been wrong, who have advocated for some of the most disastrous foreign policy decisions in American history, or the number of people who are affiliated with the IDF, with the foreign government, who they trot on to provide quote-unquote analysis, is extraordinary as well. So the way this is framed, the guests they choose, the story selections, you're starting to hear all this, oh my God, the Iranian sleeper cells in the United States. I saw CNN had a chiron to that regard as well. I think we have that somewhere in these elements.

But in any case, all of this is meant to make you afraid. It's meant to frame this as like an existential crisis. We have to stop them from getting a bomb now. And once people have accepted that framing, then there is no end and no limit to how far they will go. And we're already like speed run through that escalatory chain. It really is extraordinary. Like you've said this, Sagar, I think it's such a great point.

I could never have imagined that we would do the Iraq war only more dumber, you know dumber more brazen like More disastrous larger country like the whole thing is just so surreal to watch it all unfold Yeah, we're not there yet But in a sense like the dumbness of it all represents our current media environment and they don't even try You know look again the Bush administration did the propaganda case for over a year Saddam The humbleness of it all represents our current media environment and they don't even try. You know, look, again, the Bush administration did their propaganda case for over a year. Saddam, they concocted all this fake intelligence. They went to Congress.

They got everybody on the record. They went to the United Nations, Colin Powell and his famous speech. The legitimacy of the war in Iraq was far more, you know, amongst the American people and the world and really, you know, set the stage for why Bush was able to survive in the 04 election. Trump is just like, no, I'm gonna own this entire thing. I'm gonna do this all by myself.

I quote, I don't care what my own director of national intelligence says. I only care what the Israelis say. And, you know, this is where we're at. And yet the media environment is honestly, I still think, worse today than it has ever been, especially on cable, considering their iron grip, both on the president's mind

and on all of our high propensity boomer voters who run our fate. And just take a look at what Donald Trump, one of those boomers, is taking in over on Fox from Mark Levin, who in my opinion is probably, if we were to say, who is it, Judy Miller is one of the most responsible media figures for the war in Iraq because of the whole

curveball uranium thing, I would say Mark Levin is probably the single most impactful person for the reason why Donald Trump went out and struck Iran. Take a listen to how he's celebrating it on Fox News. Western Europe is weak. That's why wars start in Western Europe. That's why World War I started there and World War II started there. And I would tell the demagogues in our country, were you going on about World War III?

Donald Trump just prevented World War III by using the United States military to stop it. Donald Trump just prevented World War III. Also, I do, you know, these people are so dumb that it just, it stuns the mind. Europe was weak and that's why World War I started. I mean, for somebody like me, that's just too much, literally enraging. But that, look, again, this level of stupidity, this low IQ argumentation, the thorn in the side,

just complete propaganda from Mark Levin is one of the most successful propaganda campaigns of all time. Let's all just admit it. I mean, New York Times has a bunch of reporting out this morning that Fox News and Donald Trump watching Fox, the celebration of the Israeli strikes, and all of the analysts that they have on

had a major role in him claiming credit for the Israeli military campaign and for the eventual strike in the first place. In fact, many of his own advisors were like, I wish Tucker still worked at Fox, because then he would hear some sort of opposing viewpoint. Nothing, I mean, and yeah,

maybe that's why Murdoch's fired him, right? But just shows you, like, that hold on Donald Trump, all this alternative media podcast stuff, it's all bullshit. It had no influence whatsoever on his decision making, even though he relied on them to get elected, or at least according to him, was a big reason why he got elected.

Go ahead and ask. There's a New York Times profile of Andrew Schultz out this morning. He's like, one of the main reasons he supported Trump was about foreign wars, and now I'm upset about it. Look, it's all right there. You know? Yeah, well, in some of that New York Times reporting too,

they say that Trump made the decision, it was a while ago Trump made the decision. So all of the like, oh, Bannon's at the White House and oh, JD Vance called the Israelis and was very upset. They've already admitted that that story was completely fake. So a lot of, I mean, everything that unfolded in the will he or won't he week was theater, it was theater. He had made the decision to go forward with this

and he was trying to throw them off this end and destabilize the information environment so they weren't sure ultimately what was gonna happen. And with Mark Levin, I mean, it's worse than Judy Miller because she laundered the administration's talking points. He's not only laundering the administration's talking points and creating the administration's talking points and creating the administration's talking points, using anti-war rhetoric claiming he stopped World War III, which I'm hearing from a number of like mega aligned neocon types.

But he also was actually in the room during the persuasion. So he's on all sides of this in terms of, you know, a nefarious influence here. And but this is, you know, it's not just him. I just want people to get a sense. I know you've been watching Fox News more than I have. And the level of propaganda that is coming out is just, I mean, it is straight, drinking straight from the fire hydrant, just in your face, celebrate,

oh my God, we're so badass and how could you possibly be against this? Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of the rhetoric that's playing out there. Anyone who says this war isn't good is either with the regime or has something to gain from it. And I look at, you know, even in America, I look at the people and the influencers that are talking poorly about, you know, this possibility that just happened tonight. And it makes you wonder, why? Why are they all of a sudden against

taking out the nuclear capability of Iran? Well- You're not with us, you're against us. Yeah, and she does that little thing at the end. She goes, you just have to ask why now all of a sudden? And it's the same trick that Ted Cruz pulled with Tucker Cruz. Yeah.

Ted Cruz. Pulled with Tucker Tucker Carlson where, you know, oh, why are you so obsessed with Israel? Why are you so interested in the Jews? And for those of us who were, you know, I was in college during the Iraq War build-up and Sager remembers well because he was politically inclined even as a child. He was a freak. But... All my classmates hated me because I was politically inclined even as a child. As a freak. All my classmates hated me because I was talking about Iraq.

Everyone who was anti-war, we were smeared as traitors. Terror-loving traitors. Now we are going to be smeared as terror-loving traitors who are also bigoted anti-Semites. That is coming. Everything that's old is new again. I mean, and I wish I could say... I want to just really clear quick, I wanna underscore this

because it's going to be on steroids. Because in 2003, we didn't have AI, we didn't have Palantir, we didn't have, you know, the sort of authoritarian tactics that we've seen play out already to crush dissent, whether it's calling up the thousands of national guards and Marines into an American city. By the way, they're still there,

even though there's literally no protest anymore. Kidnapping students off the street. Mahmoud Khalil, by the way, guys, was just released. Already out protesting for Palestine. Again, what an absolute legend that man is. But, you know, blocking any, going through social media to make sure you haven't said the wrong thing about Israel. Like, all of these tactics are going to be deployed

against an anti-war movement. The rhetorical tactics, the surveillance tactics, the authoritarian tactics, it will be because some of these tools were not available in 2003. So I want you to understand what is coming and what they are already setting us up for. And you know, listen, Democrats participated in helping create the possibility of this rhetorical trick of claiming everyone who opposes the interest of the foreign nation of Israel is an anti-Semite and they are going to hit that messaging so hard they're going to move from what that lady did of like sort of alluding to it vaguely suggesting it to they will come right

out and say that anyone who was opposed to this war is an anti-Semite mark my words. Oh absolutely it's gonna happen. And look, Patriot Act 2.0, that's not out of the question. And if things really get into it, the Trump administration, they're gonna roll us, okay, everybody. And so be prepared, be prepared because, you know, freedom fries and all of that, that seemed insane, but you know, the vast majority of a lot of people,

they supported it. It took years to actually come back. And yeah, it's just absolutely devastating. Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies.

I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers, and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book to screen casts for years. And now I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character or cried at the last chapter or passed a book to a friend saying,

you have to read this, this podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian. Quite an honor. You know, what's funny is you do this weird math. like if you're a woman dating men, nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality. They just want to either say like you're a prude or a slut, you know, if you date too much, they criticize you. If

you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever. And then the thing that gets added when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality is the swing goes to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you and it's like okay and you know I sort of looked around I was like has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera you know maybe not in front of you off camera but hi I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcastss, or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast hell and gone, I've learned one thing.

No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband. It's a cold case. I've never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line,

I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell

and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why don't we move on to the Democrats here and to talk about their reaction? Yeah. So completely pathetic in many regards, especially from the leadership. Not going to say there haven't been any good reactions, and I think the base so far has really showed up in a positive way. But even the people who, you know, like I'm about to show you Adam Schiff, who wanna oppose this war because they don't like Trump, they frame it in all this like procedural garbage. Like what I'm really outraged about is

you didn't give me the proper briefing before this happened. Or this is like, that's the worst one. The next level up is the War Powers Resolution, which by the way is important. It's important to have that vote and get everybody on the record. But guys, just say you're against war. It's really not that fricking hard.

Here in any case is Adam Schiff doing his whole like, they didn't give me the briefing and that's what I'm really upset about. Let's take a listen. The failure to brief democratic lawmakers, the making this just another partisan exercise by the administration, when it comes to something as serious as the decision to potentially engage in warfare with another nation, it means that you're not going to have the whole

country bought into this, which is a real problem. If everything goes well, then maybe it works out fine in the sense of not being an issue that tears apart the American people. But if things don't go well, if Iran retaliates, if we get in an escalating war with Iran and you don't have the country bought in because the president didn't seek the approval of Congress because he didn't make the case to the American people, because he didn't seek the approval of Congress because he didn't make the case to the American people because he didn't even inform one of the parties in Congress. That's when you have a real problem engaging in warfare on a partisan basis. So a lot of risks here for the country, which you know is the reason why you

come to Congress in the first place, is the reason why our Constitution says Congress has the power to declare war, not the president. Yeah, that's the scandal. He didn't brief me He didn't brief you and that man is a senator now, by the way, which is just like Disturbing Andrew Cuomo also out with a sad statement about the process here and how bad the process was We could put this up on the screen D2 going into Going into Election Day Iran cannot have nuclear capability that's number one so he's validating the frame right onto the gates and many of these Chuck Schumer Hakeem Jeffries do a similar thing Iran

can't have nuclear capability that's number one I don't support the way he did it believe you should have consulted Congress this is Trump saying I don't have to follow the rules so it's he didn't follow the But you know, he supports like Iran can't have a nuclear. So he completely validates the framing. And then his only quibble is like, he didn't quite go about it in the quite in the right procedural process way. Just completely ridiculous. Meanwhile, you know, if you want to look for a study in contrast, and someone who actually

is getting it right, as he did during the Iraq war, one of the few, Bernie Sanders was actually doing one of his rallies on the fight oligarchy tour in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And he received the news live while he's up there speaking to the crowd. I think he was about to wrap his speech. And you hear a woman yell out from the crowd, Trump just bombed Iran. And then Fajd Shakir, his aide, runs up with the Trump tweet and Bernie reads it out. Let's go ahead and take a listen to the organic crowd reaction at this Bernie Sanders rally. Let's take a listen.

We just bombed Iran. Oh, that just gave me the chills. I'm scared. All right, let me conclude. I like the statement of the chills. I'm scared. I just don't know what to do. Oh dear God. Oh dear God. Oh dear God. Oh dear God. Oh dear God.

Oh dear God. Oh dear God. This is a statement from Donald Trump. Oh dear God. Oh dear God. This is a statement from Donald Trump. We have completed our very successful attack on the three nucleosites in Iran, etc. And they go on to chant, no more war. Bernie put out a statement and listen guys, this is the way to do it. The headline of the statement is, no war with Iran, not, they didn't give me a briefing.

And he concludes by saying, the American people were lied to about Vietnam with tragic consequences. American people were lied to about Iraq with tragic consequences. The American people are being lied to again today. We cannot allow history to repeat itself. The US faces enormous problems here at home, which we must address.

We cannot allow ourselves to be dragged into another Middle East war based on lies. How hard is that to say, Sager? How hard is that? It's not apparently very difficult, but it does show you, you know, Democratic leadership is a joke. Hakeem Jeffries, Chuck Schumer,

They need to resign. As Ro Khanna has now demonstrated. But that crowd reaction shows you, look, I mean the opportunity is there for the taking. If you want it, if you want it. So look, we'll give some credit also where it's due. Senator Tim Kaine spoke out against this very forcefully. Let's take a listen.

Well, the vice president was on another network earlier this morning and said, we are not at war with Iran. We are at war with Iran's nuclear program. There seems to be a lot of legal parsing on the definition of the word war here. What do you make of that description? I think it's BS, and I think anybody hearing it would conclude the same thing. When you're bombing another nation, ask them if they think it's war. They do.

Would we think it was war if Iran bombed a US nuclear facility? Of course we would. And the US, we've invaded two neighbors of Iran, Afghanistan and Iraq, to topple their regimes since 2000. Those were wars. This is the US jumping into a war of choice at Donald Trump's urging, without any compelling national security interests for the United States to act in this way,

particularly without a debate and vote in Congress. We should not be sending troops and risking troops lives in an offensive war without a debate in Congress. So he says, you know, offensive war of choice makes the Iraq War comparison. He was the first person in the Senate to jump out with a War Powers Resolution. By the way, let's put the last piece up on the screen here, the War Powers Resolution, where we are with the numbers.

So you've got 60 members of Congress, which is pathetic. There should be so many more, maybe more have signed on today who have signed on to the effort led by Massey, but he's the only Republican who has joined this effort, either in the House or the Senate. So you've got 59 Democrats, one Republican. After the attack, this was actually, I was happy to see this. Chuck Schumer announced support for the War Powers Act is urging all senators to vote for it. So that's something at least.

But you know, it's utterly pathetic. There's one Republican on this thing after all, though, like, oh, we're anti war, blah, blah, blah. But you know, to focus in on the Democratic, the Democrats here, Sager, there is also some scheming afoot as well, because there's an alternative War Powers resolution that's being offered by several APAC-aligned Democratic members right now that, you know, I'm sure is meant to somehow weaken and screw with and undercut this effort

that is going forward, which again, important to have this vote. It's important to know where everybody stands and to get those votes on the record Because everyone who votes for this war needs to be primaried and turfed out of office So we need to have hard and fast where were you at this point in time? and what did you have to say but the The message needs to be no war. That's it

Not you didn't brief me not you didn't take the vote not you didn't follow the rules. No war with Iran This is an offensive war of choice. It is an illegal war. There was no national security interest here. That is the message and we are being lied into war once again just like we were back in Iraq. It's history repeating itself. That's what these people need to say and the fact that there are so few of them who can just just be cynical, just see the political opening here. There's already been, by the way, a dozen anti-war protests in cities across the country.

And this thing is just getting kicked off. So the base is with you, independents are with you. There is a massive political opening here that they just can't seem to be able to seize on. Yeah, especially, you know, I wouldn't bet, I'm not saying Zoran didn't do a lot of work, but I wouldn't bet against the strikes having at least some impact on some of his latest polling

if he does win, at least at a narrative level, you should look at that. I agree. I mean, there's a lot of young people, right, who would be furious. I actually know some of my friends who live in New York who are like, that's it, I'm voting for Zoran, because they're specifically just pissed off

about how Cuomo and everybody else is so aligned with the Israeli war machine. So yeah, take advantage. All right, but listen, they never learn, they never will, or maybe they will, I don't know. We'll continue to track it here on the show. We do have John Mearsheimer standing by, Professor John Mearsheimer, let's get to it.

Just like great shoes, great books take you places. Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay, and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts. Every week I sit down with your favorite book lovers, authors, celebrities, book talkers,

and more to explore the stories that shape us, on the page and off. I've been reading every Reese's Book Club pick, deep-diving book talk theories, and obsessing over book-to-screen casts for years. And now, I get to talk to the people making the magic. So if you've ever fallen in love with a fictional character, or cried at the last chapter, or passed a book to a friend saying, you have to read this. This podcast is for you. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart Radio

app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be considered a hot lesbian. Quite an honor. You know what's funny is you do this weird math, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be a hot, considered a hot lesbian. Quite an honor. You know what's funny is you do this weird math. Like if you're a woman dating men,

nobody wants to talk to you about your sexuality. They just want to either say like you're a prude or a slut, you know? If you date too much, they criticize you. If you don't date, you must be frigid, whatever. And then the thing that gets added when you're actually more fluid with your sexuality is the swing goes to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, okay. And you know, I sort

of looked around and was like, has nobody been paying attention to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? You know, maybe not in front of you off camera, but hi, I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your You know, maybe not in front of you off camera, but hi, I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast hell and gone, I've learned one thing.

No town is too small for murder. I'm Katherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've

never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Very excited now to be joined by Professor John Mearsheimer of the University of Chicago, one of my personal heroes, sir, thank you very much for joining us again.

My pleasure to be here. Absolutely, all right, so let's get into it, professor. You've long warned about the circumstances around this. Now we have the situation where the United States has struck Iranian nuclear facilities. We want to get your reaction specifically to the way that Israel has dragged the United States into this situation, something you've warned about for quite some time. Here we're going to play a little bit from Prime Minister Netanyahu. We're going to get your reaction. Let's take a listen. Congratulations, President Trump.

Your bold decision to target Iran's nuclear facilities with the awesome and righteous might of the United States will change history. In Operation Rising Line, Israel has done truly amazing things. But in tonight's action against Iran's nuclear facilities, America has been truly unsurpassed. It has done what no other country on Earth could do. History will record that President Trump acted to deny the world's most dangerous regime, the world's most dangerous weapons. His leadership today has created

a pivot of history that can help lead the Middle East and beyond to a future of prosperity and peace. President Trump and I often say peace through strength. First comes strength, then comes peace. Professor, what do you make of Beeibi's comments there and where things go from here? Well, I actually think he's delusional. I think the argument that we have solved the nuclear problem with Iran is wrong. And if anything, it's more likely than ever that Iran will get nuclear weapons. Almost everybody I know argues that if Iran wants nuclear weapons, there's nothing you can do to prevent them from getting nuclear weapons.

They have so much know-how, they have so much capability, and even if we were to destroy all of the existing facilities, they could rebuild them underneath a bigger mountain and eventually nuclear weapons. And furthermore, when you attack them like this, you give them greater incentive than ever to actually go get nuclear weapons. Watching what's been happening, one says to oneself, why didn't they get nuclear weapons earlier? This wouldn't have happened if they had nuclear deterrent. So I would argue that first of all we did not Get all of their nuclear infrastructure. We did not destroy all of their nuclear capability

Secondly, even if we did they can rebuild it and third they now have a greater incentive than ever to get nuclear weapons. So we have not solved the nuclear problem by doing this. Professor, what is your understanding of the pressures that were brought to bear that led us to this point of being directly engaged in what Trump is now saying in true social may well be a regime change war? Yeah, well, just quickly to talk about regime change is changing the objective here. Trump initially said that this was simply about taking out Iran's nuclear capability.

He probably now realizes that we have not done that, cannot do that. So now we're talking about regime change on the assumption that if we put in a new regime that those new Iranian leaders are not going to want nuclear weapons. This too is delusional. What Iranian in his or her right mind doesn't want a nuclear deterrent at this point in time? Furthermore, we're not going to get regime change in all likelihood.

If you look at what's happening inside Iran, what's happening and what the historical record always says happens in these cases, that the people are coming together to support the regime. There's a rally around the flag effect. So I think this is not going to work to cause regime change any more than it's going to work to eliminate the nuclear capability. Now, with regard to your question about the influence of Israel and the lobby on the United States, the influence of the lobby in the United States is awesome. There's just no question about that. This is a war for Israel. Basically, the Israel firsters trump the American firsters,

and it's hardly surprising. We've seen it many times and will undoubtedly see it many times moving forward. Professor, you know, one of the things you've always warned about as well is about this realignment not only with Iran, but also with the other powers. We could put this here up on the screen, a reaction from Dmitry Medvedev, the former president of Russia. He says here, what have the Americans accomplished with their nighttime strikes on these nuclear sites in Iran?

Critical infrastructure appears to only have been affected, sustained only minor damage. He says Iran's political regime has survived and all likelihood has come out even stronger. The people are rallying around the country's spiritual leadership. But the most important line was a number of countries are ready to supply Iran with their own nuclear warheads What do you make of this warning from the Russians and what the you know follow-on? Effects of this will be throughout the world, you know the destruction perhaps of the non-plural Affiliation treaty the incentive for strut for states opposed to the United States and to the West to pursue a nuclear weapons program

Well, there are a number of different issues here. First of all, I don't think that there's any country with nuclear weapons that would give nuclear warheads to Iran. I think the only possibility is Pakistan, and I don't think that that's in the cards. Could be wrong, but I don't think that's in the cards.. I could be wrong, but I don't think that's in the cards. I think the greater danger, as I said before, is that Iran will develop its own nuclear

weapons. With regard to the NPT and the nuclear proliferation regime that we've established over the years, which has been so effective, I think this is a hammer blow to that regime. I think almost everybody agrees about that point. The fact is that the message from what has happened in Iran is that you should have nuclear weapons because they are the ultimate deterrent. That's the only way you can ensure that Israel and the United States won't do a tag team attack on you. Just look at Kim Jong-un in North Korea. He developed nuclear weapons. He's sitting happily in Pyongyang because he knows we're not going to attack him because

he has nuclear weapons. If you look at what happened in Libya, what happened in Syria, what's now happening in Ukraine, and what's happening in Iran, it's quite clear that you want to have nuclear weapons. They are the ultimate deterrent. So I think this has done great damage to the nuclear proliferation regime. With regard to our reputation around the world, I mean, the United States is correctly seen as a rogue state. Even in East Asia today, allies like Japan and South Korea are basically condemning us

for what we've done. I mean, what can you say about the United States? I mean, first of all, the duplicitous diplomacy here, and then this idea that we have the right just to run around the world attacking countries whenever we see fit. Furthermore, let's not lose sight of the fact that the United States is supporting the Israeli genocide in Gaza. This is much worse than anything that's happening to the Iranians. There's a genocide taking place. The Israelis are executing it, and we're complicit in this, complicitus in this. I mean, I think America's reputation is in tatters. Sure, we're the most powerful state on the planet, and countries have to be very careful

in their criticism of us. But I think almost everybody outside of Israel and the United States and a few European leaders understands that the United States is basically out of control. Let's talk a little bit more about Gaza and how this fits in this picture. I can put E3 up on the screen, which is just the latest article in the ongoing hell and ongoing genocide that is being perpetrated inside of Gaza. This is from Haaretz, which is an Israeli newspaper says, as living space in Gaza shrinks, remaining pockets endure hellish conditions.

Nearly two million people crammed now into less than 18% of Gaza. This is all, of course, getting now much less attention because now the world is focused on this war with Iran. You know, the war, the Israeli initial strikes, of course, done with our support, were launched at a time when there was increasing public and global discontent with the continuation of this genocide. Do you see those two things as linked in terms of what led to this particular timing? Yes, I think that the Israelis have always understood that the best chance for cleansing Gaza and the West Bank was in the context of a big war. October 7th, of course, provided the pretext for bombing Gaza and starting the genocide. And there's no question in my mind that the Israelis understood that if they started a

war against Iran, the focus would be on Iran, especially if they brought the Americans in, and that would leave them free to ramp up the genocide and possibly drive the Palestinians out of Gaza. I mean, it's very clear that that is their goal. And then the question you have to ask yourself is, given that goal, what is the best way for them to achieve that end? And it's quite clear to me that starting a major war with Iran goes a long way towards helping them cleanse Gaza.

Sir, what do you think that, how does this fit, again, you know, kind of returning to the global picture? We could put the next one here up on the screen, which is about this recently completed Iranian Chinese freight line. Now nobody's claiming, you know, that this would be able to replace the Straits of Hormuz. But if there is a larger US military intervention, what will that lead to, you know, in terms of US power that's able to project in East Asia and elsewhere, along with our reputation. What is the logical conclusion that adversarial states would want to make after further US

involvement here in the Middle East? Well, look, there's no question that American policymakers believe that the principal threat that the United States faces today is from China. China is widely seen as a peer competitor. And the United States has been interested in pivoting to Asia since 2011, when Hillary Clinton, who was then Secretary of State, said, we're going to pivot to Asia. But we cannot pivot to Asia in any meaningful way, in large part because of the Ukraine War and what's going on in the Middle East And if you look at all the naval and air assets that we have in the Middle East now that should be in East Asia

You see that we have greatly weakened our strategic situation in East Asia And we are in a poor position at this point in time for purposes of containing China. This is not in our interest. And of course, this shows you what an albatross Israel is around their neck. So there's no doubt that in terms of basic American grand strategy, this is not good. And if you hypothesize a situation where we're stuck in the Middle East for months on end, this is an even worse situation.

With regard to our reputation, I think our reputation has been badly damaged. I think there's no question about that. And I think it will only get worse. And by the way, one thing we haven't talked about is what the consequences will be for Donald Trump on the home front. I mean, Trump is betting that this is sort of a one

and done operation. We went in, we did the dirty work, we solved the problem and now we can celebrate, have a victory parade or what have you. I don't think this is the way this one's going to play out. I don't think the Iranians are going to roll over and play dead. I think we're probably going to have to launch further operations against Iran, military operations that is, down the road. And there's no evidence that this one is going to be

settled quickly. And as I said before, I think the Iranians, if anything, are gonna get nuclear weapons and they're gonna continue down the nuclear road. And Trump is gonna have egg on his face. It's not gonna be a great victory. People are gonna question why we did this. And so I think he's gonna have problems on the home front as a result of all this. Totally agree.

Professor, how do you separate out the influence of the Israel lobby and the genuine ideological belief among many American elite political leaders that endless support for Israel does directly serve, you know, the interest of American empire? Like, for example, I think Joe Biden was a very sincere ideological Zionist who was ideologically committed to supporting Israel come hell or high water. How do you separate those two things out? Well, it is somewhat difficult to separate them out.

But the key point to remember is that any policymaker or any politician or aspiring politician who criticizes Israel will find out very quickly that that person has the lobby's gun sights on him or her. The lobby will go to great lengths to destroy that person's career and make sure that he or she never gets elected to office. We'll figure this out very quickly. And they also understand that if you support Israel hook, line, and sinker, you'll get big time support from the lobby. Someone like Lindsey Graham or Tom Cotton, they benefit enormously from making arguments

that the lobby finds in Israel's interest. If you're a general in the American military and you're thinking about what you're going to do after you retire, you understand full well that if you criticize Israel, it'll be very hard to find a job once you retire. At the same time, you understand that if you support Israel, if you back it, and you push the American military to do things that are said to be in Israel's interest, your job prospects, once you retire, will be much better. I could go on and on about this.

But Israel lobby has enormous influence in the United States. There is no case in the historical record that even comes close to this. Every time I- Go ahead. Do you think that grip is loosening at all? We were just talking about the New York City mayoral race, Andrew Cuomo and Zoran Mondani,

and he's been supporter of BDS, calls it a genocide in Palestine. This is Zoran and Andrew Cuomo is very much the APAC backed candidate. And I don't know who's going to win, but he's certainly giving Cuomo run for his money. You also have a number of vocal critics in Congress who have now survived that APAC onslaught. People like Rashida Tlaib, people like on the right Thomas Massey. So do you think that some of that influence is beginning to crack in this age?

Well, two points. some of that influence is beginning to crack in this age? Well, two points. One is that there's no question that the lobby is in deep trouble, and Israel is in deep trouble, when you talk about the public at large. The word is now out, thanks to shows like yours and all sorts of other alternative media sites. The fact is that the word is out that Israel is committing a genocide, that Israel is a

strategic liability, that Israel drags us into wars like this, and so forth and so on. The problem is that the Israeli lobby or the Israel lobby is still deadly effective at the policy level. They have a lock on American policymakers and people like Thomas Massey and others are small in number. They're just not many people at the policy level or willing to contest the Israelis. So what has to happen here is that the public opinion

has to translate into a change at the policy level. And I think the only place where that's possible is in the Democratic party. It doesn't look like it's at all possible in the Republican party. But if you look at the polls and you look at how young Democrats, and this includes, by the way, many young American Jews

who are deeply disaffected by what's happening here for good moral and strategic reasons. But I think that's the hope. Yeah. You know, sir, on a personal level, I read your book in 2008, The Israel Lobby, hugely influential. I read a lot about realism and restraint, and I learned so much from you just through your pages.

Is it surreal to watch the neocons again get a victory? I didn't think it would happen. I've seen the popularization of your work from that time to today. We have this broad restraint community, and I feel like it's all completely failed just to watch it all happen again, to see Lindsey Graham, to see Fox News, Mark Levin.

What is it like for you, having lived through this twice now, to watch the war drums beat, the same people who were wrong previously get to claim a victory lap. It just seems so surreal to me. It does seem surreal. Sometimes, as you would expect, I'm guilty of wishful thinking and I want to believe

that the lobby's power will be curbed and we will do the right thing both strategically and morally. It turns out very quickly that that is wishful thinking and you realize that the lobby is as powerful as ever. This is all to say that I think moving forward over the next couple months and even over the next couple years, the lobby will have a lock on American policy and they will push us to do things in the Middle East that are not in their interest. I don't see Donald Trump contesting the lobby in any meaningful way. He's a guy who

likes to talk tough, but ultimately he's not very tough. And when it comes to Israel, just look at what he did in his first term and what he's done since Taking office in his second term and there is no reason to think That he's going to contest Israel in any meaningful way Professor my last question for you here is under the Obama administration The Israel lobby did take one significant blow which was the successful negotiation of the JCPOA You know, what do you think think created the conditions that made that deal possible? Even Bibi Netanyahu came here and preached to Congress.

You had a robust debate, a huge propaganda effort to try to kill that deal, and it was able to ultimately go through. So what do you think created that possibility? Well, I think that Obama fully understood that the lobby was powerful, but nevertheless its policies were not good for the United States. I think he understood that Israel is an albatross around their neck. He would never say that publicly, but I'm fully confident that he understood that. He understood that getting a deal with Iran made sense. He worked overtime to fashion

a deal. He had the benefit that he had a number of European countries, the French, the British, and the Germans, plus the Russians, plus the Chinese on his side And he was able to barely push through the JCPOA the nuclear agreement with Iran He took tremendous heat along the way from the Israelis and from the lobby and then when Trump came to power in 2017 January 2017 he made it clear That he was going to do away with the JCPOA. Of course, in 2018, the summer of 2018, he walked away from it. Then you want to remember that when we started dealing with this issue again, when the Trump administration started dealing with this issue again a few months ago, Steve

Witkoff and Trump himself were talking about working out a deal that looked like the JCPOA. The lobby then moved in, unsurprisingly, and the lobby made it clear to Witkoff and to Trump that there was not going to be a deal like the JCPOA. And Witkoff and Trump both did 180-degree turns, said the Iranians cannot have any nuclear enrichment at all, which was allowed in the original JCPOA. And the Iranians said that was unacceptable. And here we are today. So what is the bottom line. The bottom line is that common sense won a victory during the Obama period,

but that was quickly overturned. That victory was quickly overturned by Trump. And then it looked like Trump might win a victory for common sense this time, and it was quickly overturned by the lobby. So you see the power of the lobby at every turn. It's almost impossible for a president to have any maneuver room when it comes to dealing with issues that are dear to Israel's heart. There you go. Well, sir, thank you very much for joining us. We always appreciate your voice and hope to see you again soon.

Thank you very much. Thank you, Professor. You're welcome. Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it. We've got a great show for you tomorrow. We'll see you again soon. Thank you very much. Thank you, Professor. You're welcome. Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it. We've got a great show for you tomorrow. We'll see you then. Just like great shoes, great books take you places.

Through unforgettable love stories and into conversations with characters you'll never forget. I think any good romance, it gives me this feeling of like butterflies. I'm Danielle Robay and this is Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club, the new podcast from Hello Sunshine and iHeart Podcasts where we dive into the stories that shape us on the page and off. Each week I'm joined by authors, celebs, book talk stars, and more for conversations that will make you laugh, cry, and add way too many books to your TBR pile. Listen to Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club on the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

This week on Dear Chelsea with me, Chelsea Handler, Sophia Bush is here. Tell me how that feels to be considered a hot lesbian. Quite an honor. You know what's funny? When you're actually more fluid with your sexuality, the swing goes from nobody gives a shit who you're sleeping with to you better identify exactly who you are so we can figure out what name to call you. And it's like, has nobody been paying attention

to like all the hot girls I've been kissing on camera? Hi, I've always been here. Listen to Dear Chelsea on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated.

I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.