Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 6/24/25: Rogan Speaks Out On Trump ICE Raids, Tucker Unloads On Ted Cruz Over Iran, Jeff Sachs On Israel Violating Iran Ceasefire

Episode Date: June 24, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss Rogan speaks against Trump Home Depot raids, Tucker unloads on 'repulsive' Ted Cruz, Jeffrey Sachs on how Bibi will sabotage ceasefire.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned no town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend. I've heard from hundreds of people across the country with an unsolved murder in their community. I was calling about the murder of my husband. The murderer is still out there. Each week I investigate a new case. If there's a case we should hear about,

call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Sagar and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show.

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We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. All right, let's go ahead and get to a big SCOTUS ruling that came out yesterday. That's right. This is a major Supreme Court ruling that happened in the middle of the ceasefire. So you may have missed it and you're definitely forgiven. We can go ahead and put this up there on the screen and I'll just read a little bit from

the decision. Quote, the Supreme Court has now made it easier for the Trump administration to deport convicted criminals to, quote, third countries to which they have no previous connection. In a brief unsigned order that did not explain its reasoning, the court put on hold a federal judge's ruling that said those affected nation-nines should have a meaningful opportunity to bring claims

they would be at risk if they were sent to countries the administration has made deals with to receive deported immigrants. As a result, the administration will be able to quickly remove immigrants to such third countries including South Sudan. Affected immigrants can still attempt to bring individual claims. So what you're basically seeing there is this happened, I know, while I was gone, but there was this, what was it, a deportation to South Sudan of several, I think, individuals here

illegally in the United States. Well, what has now happened is that the Supreme Court is allowing the deportation of this. However, the legal process which is done still remains up in the air, as I understand it. It allows for such deportation to take place, but there's still open questions around due process, just like with the Alien Enemies Act.

But broadly, it was a win for the Trump administration at an executive level. No doubt about it. And it was split along partisan lines. I don't think there was much question about whether or not the administration could deport people to third countries, places they're not from. That has been, you know, a long-standing practice.

You know, this is something that has been broadly acknowledged that, you know, the administration has this power, whether I like it or not. The question here was all around due process. Do you have a chance to challenge that decision to send you, for example, Libya is one of the countries that they want to send people to. We've talked about Libya a lot lately, because in the context of Iran, things are not going well in Libya.

Reports are that they certainly in the past had effectively slave markets, and in fact a lot of the people who were sold on those slave markets were migrants into the country. So to me, and Sagar and I agreed we don't have time to fight about this today, so we'll table this for

a longer discussion later. To me, you should have the ability, have enough time to say, hey, I think I'm going to be tortured and murdered and sold into a slave market if I go to this country, if I'm shipped to this country, and have that go through an adjudicated process, effectively the Supreme Court here. And I think you may agree with this. Not only did they say, don't you don't really deserve like any sort of lengthy due process but this is an important decision and it

really bothers me that they didn't even explain their thinking. You know because that really... Well I think it's a procedural thing in terms of the unsigned order because it's like something about injunctive relief. No they could have and the dissent the dissent was written out and explained. But the actual decision here, they give no rationale for. So it continues to leave all of these questions about why they interpreted it this way and what made them come to this decision.

And I think that, you know, I disagree with the decision outright, but I also think it's outrageous that they didn't even bother to explain what is in fact a quite consequential decision here ultimately. We also wanted to highlight for you guys a couple of interesting comments that I'm a little bit surprised at from Joe Rogan and then some from Andrew Schultz, where obviously, you know, both of them were supportive of Trump in this past election. And Rogan expresses here some discomfort with the extent of the Trump deportation policy

and the way they've gone about it, which most of the people who are being detained at this point, like the Arun, or I think 90%, are not violent criminals who have been picked up by the Trump administration. And so he expresses in this clip some discomfort with that. Let's go ahead and clip some discomfort with that. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that.

Ice raids are fucking nuts, man. Watching this protest on television, it's like... Do you think the raids are nuts or the protests? All of it's nuts. I think both sides are taking it a little too hard. I don't think if they, the Trump administration, if they're running and they said, we're going to go to Home Depot and we're going to arrest all the people at Home Depot, we're going to go to construction sites and we're going to just like tackle people at constructions.

I don't think anybody would sign up for that. They said, we're going to get rid of the criminals and the gang members first. Right? And now we're, we're seeing like Home Depots get raided. Like that's crazy. Something about the Home Depot really struck a chord with these guys, which is kind of interesting. I guess because it's just like so known, so suburban. Joe probably maybe even has been to,

because he used to live in LA, the particular Home Depot that was raided, I don't know. But I have to say, Sagar, like, on the Iran War stuff, yes, Trump said we should bomb the nuclear sites. He also said he would be the peace candidate. If you weren't paying that close of attention, I can maybe sort of give you the benefit of the doubt. No, come on.

There was genuine ambiguity there. Okay. The guy literally came out and said, fuck, Israel and Iran, what the fuck they're doing today, and then also called for, and then said no regime change today. Right, but I'm just saying.

You can read whatever you want. Okay, you could also have looked at his first term and the Hau'a Haq issue was towards Iran, but like I said, okay, I can read whatever you want. Okay, you could also have looked at his first term and how a hawkish he was towards Iran, but like I said, okay, I can see where you were coming from and why you may have gotten the impression that he would not be a hawk vis-a-vis Iran. I don't know how you could give that impression on deportations.

Like the whole campaign was mass deportations. There were only signs at the RNC that said mass deportation now. Like what about that made you think that this was going to be some targeted, we're only going after the criminals kind of approach? Because that was not at all what was sold during the election whatsoever. And so, listen, I'm glad to see him express concern, but I just think it's insane that

you didn't think that was the direction that Stephen Miller was going to go and Tom Homan were going to go in if they were put back into power. Yeah, I mean, look, I don't disagree. I mean, the mass deportation was about as clear as it was. I think the mass deportation and the trade war, I guess it's about implementation or seeing like, there's something visceral probably about it. I mean, I don't know, because it is one of those things

where, look, sometimes people believe in something, but they don't necessarily understand what the overall implication of what it's gonna play out is gonna look like. I mean, that's understandable, I guess. There hasn't really been a serious mass deportation effort like this in literally, what, 50 years or something like that.

So, to that extent, that makes sense, but broadly, I mean, I would say in particular with MAGA and what they were saying literally at the time and also in terms of practice, there has not really been a single thing. I would, maybe CICOT, I would say the rest of it has not personally surprised me. Like Home Depot.

CICOT surprised me. No, but that's what I'm saying, CICOT, but even though you said he was gonna do the Alien Enemies Act, literally on the campaign trail, I think 70 days before he came to, 70 days before he was elected, he's like, here's my plan to use the Alien Enemies Act and to immediately expedite deportation.

Again, you could sympathize because people are not paying attention, but at a like mass deportation level, they made it pretty clear. I mean, yes, they were talking about criminal and illegal, but you know, a large part of it here was about labor and cheap labor specifically. That's been a central point of the Trump talking points on immigration now for quite some time. But I guess people sometimes maybe see what they want to see as well with a criminal comment.

I think that's a good point. Let's go and take a listen to Andrew Schultz just did this long interview with the New York Times, which I listened to all of, I don't know, I- I haven't listened to the full thing yet. It wasn't, I don't know, the two, the interviewer and him were kinda like at odds the whole time, it was- I think the interviewer really didn't get his deal,

and yeah, anyway, we talked about it. Yeah, whatever, anyway. Because I read the transcript, I didn't listen to it. I did listen to it, and you didn't get a lot out of it, I don't know if it was Andrew's fault, I don't know if it was the interviewer's fault. They just didn't really, there wasn't, it wasn't a great pairing, I would say, the two of them together.

In any case, Andrew made some kind of similar comments with regard to immigration and Trump. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that. And in terms of immigration, like I want more, like if you broke the law, you did any, if you broke the law, you fucked up. You already here illegally, so you already broke the law and you're breaking the law, you did any, if you broke the law, you fucked up. You're already here illegally, so you already broke the law, and you're breaking the law, you gotta go. If you've been working your ass off for 10 years here, you've got a family, there's gotta be a system where we can just give these people a pathway to citizenship or a green card or

something. There has to be a better way than simply just, hey, you go. And that's what I was pleading with him for on the pod, which is maybe pleading is a strong word, but I was asking him to show empathy for these people that he's also employed. Like I was like, listen, you've had hotels,

you know these people, you know that they're gonna bust their ass, they're gonna work hard and they want a better life. It's like why my mom came here, so why your parents or maybe his great grandparents or some shit came here. So it's like, I would like there to be much more empathy in that department.

I don't think that that's happening. And what would a Democrat have to do to win your vote back? He would just have to be named Bernie Sanders and I'll fucking vote for him in a heartbeat. No, no. Enjoy that last comment there. I mean, interesting horseshoe, but in any case, I'm actually a little bit surprised

that these guys didn't know what they were getting with. Well, no, I think it's a little bit more fair on Rogan's end and on Andrew's end. Andrew actually literally was pressing Trump about immigration and to the extent that he was like pro-Trump or whatever, I don't think he ever signed up for the quote, mass deportation. The full mass deportation.

And that's my point. And this is why people are not to be put into a box. And it is important as well to play this all out. I would not have done it the way that Trump has done it. However, you know, and this, look, Andrew is a good friend of mine and I do disagree with him though. I mean, I don't think that just coming to the country illegally and just because you quote, haven't committed a crime gives you some great license for a green card.

I mean, frankly, it's absurd policy. But as you said, you don't want to fight. But my main point remains is that immigration, you know, look, the polling is all over the place. We can, I think probably agree it's still the strongest place for Donald Trump. Maybe war will replace it. I still think it's a central reason why he was elected president, both in 2016 and again in 2024.

But broadly, I mean, I think one of the reasons, maybe it's a lesson for Democrats as well, is that you have people who literally believe in comprehensive immigration reform, but when you have border chaos, they're like, yeah, fuck this, and they're gonna go with somebody who stands for mass deportation.

In general, Americans react to whoever they think is being more chaotic on the issue of crime and or immigration. If anything, I think it's a good lesson for those people. Also, that you can win people back, or that the narrative is not locked in if you want it to be. Part of why I would encourage the Trump administration

to do this efficiently and not constantly just, I mean, this is now like the strategy of Trump, is everything is a show, everything is dialed up to 100. Like we're doing regime change and unconditional surrender and the next day we're calling for world peace. It's like, what are we doing? In terms of, it's like- The reporting is he basically outsourced

the deportation policy to Stephen Miller. Yes and no, but then also he takes control of it and there's been a five-time swing back at this point. I literally still am not clear as to whether we're raiding farms or not. And it's been 20 days of we're raiding farms, actually hotels and farmers need illegals to work there. Let's all ruminate on that for a second too, as to why that's apparently an allowable reason. Then Stephen Miller is like, no, actually, we're going to be raiding them.

And then Trump comes out, he's like, no, actually, we're not going to be raiding them. I believe we are back to some sort of strategic pause. I thought we were back on with the raids. No, we were. But then two days ago, apparently, that changed. This is what I'm saying. There's been a complete like schizophrenia here. And if anything, I mean, that's what really hurts Trump's cause is that nothing is coherent

and ideologically sold. America is, I think, absolutely on board with criminal or illegal, or criminal specifically, people who have committed crimes. Yeah, absolutely. But they've done a bad job, I think, of messaging specifically on the labor issue, especially when the president is out there talking about how these farmers and hotel workers Literally need illegal labor to function. I mean again just it boggles the mind that a Segment of industry cannot function without hiring a US citizen

It's absurd and why would an American president endorse that if that's actually the case? That's your job to fix so, you president endorse that if that's actually the case? That's your job to fix. So, you know, I think that's the problem, though, is that he's constantly got these rich people in his ear, you know, talking his head off about, oh, well, we can't do that without doing all of this. And it actually drives me particularly crazy because one of JD's canned speeches on the campaign trail,

I probably heard this like 50 times, is about a hotel executive telling him about how he can't run his hotels at a profit without using illegal labor. And so then the president is now parroting that same thing at the podium. The president is that hotel executive. That's who he is.

That's my point. But I mean, here's the thing is, I do actually wanna fight with you, but we don't have time to fight fully on this today because we got Emily waiting Then we got professor sacks. I will just say I think where the confusion comes from is that Trump aggressively sold The idea on the campaign trail that undocumented immigrants overall were criminal that there was a huge number Millions of criminals who had flooded the country in an invasion.

Oh my God, they're taking over entire, oh my God, they're taking over entire apartment complexes. And so I think that's where a lot of people, not just Sheridan, probably got the idea of like, oh, mass deportation, we can do a mass deportation that is just criminals, when in reality, the numbers are comparatively small of actual like violent criminals who are also undocumented immigrants. I'm not saying there aren't any,

but you really get the sense of that when the guys they shipped off to CICOT to a literal slave labor camp for the rest of their lives with no due process, when the vast majority even of them had no criminal record here or in other countries around the world. So I think that's where, you know, not only was there confusion about what mass deportation would ultimately mean, but also where there has been significant, yes, immigration is still his strongest policy. He's now underwater on his strongest policy, though, where there's been significant upset in the way that this has gone forward. Because yes, if you ask people,

should we deport criminal, illegal aliens, you'll get like 89%, right? Including myself, sure, yes, go do it. If you ask them about the person that Rogan or Andrew are talking about there, they've been like here for years and years and they don't commit any crimes and they pay tax, they do the right thing, should you deport them?

It's actually the polar opposite. You get almost 80% opposed to the deportation of those people. And so I think that's why you've had a decline in support and why you've had some people, some former supporters who are expressing concern over this and why I think it was an overreading of the mandate that, yes, I'm not downplaying that immigration was an important factor, I'm not downplaying there was rejection of Biden era immigration policies,

but I think the reading was that then people wanted the Stephen Miller deportation policy when that is not actually popular either. Well, I mean, you could also could say that they have their last second term and now they don't have to get reelected. So if in a sense they're like, look, this is the only chance that you actually have at literal mass deportation again We don't have time to fight but you know, it's 20 million in the future

We know what one percent of 20 million is it's 200,000 So that's actually a lot of people even if just 1% are people who are violent criminals Which would I mean even the shit libs will admit that that's a big number I think. And that has not yet reached for what, in terms of the deportation numbers that have been released. They're also not targeting those people. It's the percent of immigrants who were detained who have criminal records is way down under

the Trump administration. No, it's not. It's like 10% who have violent criminal records. It's roughly 10% reporting to a new Cato Institute study. Well, yeah, let's talk about Cato Institute. I don't think that anyone would deny that there's been a reduction in the percentage of people who have been,

Stephen Miller's policy went in and yelled at ICE and was like, why are you going after criminals? Go to the Home Depot. So, I mean, that is his policy. That is the sort of policy of his policy. I will grant that Part of it is about the larger number. I'm not trusting an open literal libertarian open borders Institute number study for that I would like to I'm not trusting the government either So let's also say that and I'm not going to deny there have been major problems. I think on the Trump administration's end However at a narrative level victory, how will Trump

fare on immigration? I think that the more that it is literally, that the more that it is about order, specifically which is really what I think he was elected to restore, the better off he will be. Part of the reason I thought that LA really did not go well for him. And I think a lot of the polling broadly backs that up. The style of the government was kind of part of instigating more disorder than order. That's broadly what America really wants in terms of its crime and its immigration policy. And that is really the eternal fight. And largely, I mean, where the people suffer, Biden suffered because he led eight to 10

million people illegally in the country, which is nuts with literally no policy. And if Trump suffers, it will be because he deported people with no due process and they're shoddy and shitty, obvious lies from the government. People would see through that and be like, okay, well, even though I was on board, this doesn't look like restorant order to me. For my personal criticism of them and all of that, it's the constant chaos as it is throughout the implementation of all of their policy, which actually undermines any real stated goal and broadly will lead to pushback, I think,

from the American people. And that's part of what these guys are picking up on as well. When they say Home Depot, I don't think it's actually physically just about the Home Depot raid. I think it's about the fact that, like you said about the Stephen Miller thing being like, oh actually, no, go in there and go against Home Depot. Forget the criminals, go out and go.

We're going from this and it's schizophrenia actually, which makes people really react in a certain way. Anyway, we have Emily. We really need to get to her and apologize. All right, let's get to it. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes.

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The murderer is still out there. Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's mother. She was still somebody's daughter. She was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions

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life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis. Rick Jervis We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne, from Oakley, sports editor and aspiring rapper. Jeff Perlman And his stage name, Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie.

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Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We're very excited now to be joined by our very own Emily Jasinski, who is also the host of a new show called After Party with Emily Jasinski. You truly are the Marco Rubio of podcasting. You have all these different shows.

You are working for all these different people. I'm not spending it on your behalf, Emily. No, I mean, it's a compliment. It's a compliment for the ability to very, you know, competently hold all these hats. But Emily, you debuted your new show with a major interview with Tucker Carlson, could literally not have been newsier. We pulled a clip from it and then we want to get your reaction. So let's take a clip.

Listen. Ted Cruz is already taking a victory lap. He says, quote, it turns out that Tucker was wrong. I just want to get your reaction. So let's take a listen. Ted Cruz is already taking a victory lap. He says, quote, it turns out that Tucker was wrong. I just want to get your thoughts on this Tucker. Did Trump prove you and all of us who doubted the wisdom of this strike wrong tonight? Well, you could ask Trump. I mean, was this fraught with like existential peril?

Of course. I'm so grateful that he brought it in for a landing. I mean, I think we should be grateful to him. I think we should be grateful to God. I think we should understand how close we came. But I also think we should step back and ponder what we've learned. And what we've learned is who cares about the fortunes of the United States and who doesn't. And Ted Cruz doesn't, obviously. The people who acknowledge no risk at all, because they were so focused on helping another country like Ted Cruz or like, you know, the people who acknowledge no risk at all, because they were so focused on helping other country like Ted Cruz or like, you know, the many people who revealed themselves

in the last two weeks, Mark Levin, chief among them, like those people should not have any access to power at all. Those people rolled the dice with your life and with the lives of your children. It's disgusting. And so, I mean, just ask yourself, is Mark Levin concerned at all about the United States? Like, at all? And the answer is no.

Mark Levin is a repulsive ghoul whose entire sex life consists of watching other people get blown up. He was upset that there was a ceasefire and said so. How could you be upset with a ceasefire? How could you be upset that people are no longer dying? By the way, I think the ceasefire is real. We have no idea where anything goes in life. That's up to God. But as of right now, it's absolutely real and we should be thankful for it. And so if your first instinct is this is bad, then you've just told us who you are. And look, that's between Mark Levin and God. and I think it's going to be a tough conversation.

But for our purposes, you know, Mark Levin should not have access to power. I mean, he almost pushed the president of the United States into a path that would have destroyed the presidency and the United States. Why do you think the Mark Levin's of the world didn't get what they wanted in this case, at least as of right now, because the president just yesterday was- Because Trump doesn't want nuclear war. I mean, as he said a million times, like he doesn't want Iran to have the bomb because he doesn't want more bombs because he's afraid

of nuclear war because he understands what it is. I've talked to him about this on and off camera many times and he has unique among world leaders like an instinctive aversion to killing millions of people in seconds. And so he's worried about nuclear war. It's the reason Tulsi Gabbard supported him. It's the reason they hate Tulsi Gabbard now, because she raises the very real specter of mass annihilation. So what were your broad takeaways considering how newsy it was? You're reacting in the middle of the ceasefire.

A lot of people were going after Tucker saying his predictions were wrong and all that. So you had a lot more in that interview. What were your main takeaways here? Well, yeah, I mean, I think that point is really crucial. His predictions were wrong, but where he goes from there, he admits. I mean, in our conversation, he admits that he was, I guess, technically wrong.

He says that Iran would not have come to the table without Donald Trump's decision to make those strikes. That's one of the questions that I put to him. I was curious what he would make of that as someone who was kind of cheering this apparent peace deal. We'll see. As Trump said, like an hour ago, Israel and Iran don't know what the fuck they're doing.

So who knows where this goes? But Tucker basically was saying, even then the probability of catastrophe was so high that Trump was being pushed to, as he saw it being pushed, which is interesting too, to flirt with disaster, to flirt with utter catastrophe by people like Mark Levin, whose sex life we talked about more than I expected. I expected to talk about it a little bit,

but not quite that much. And so when you, so that's, I think the, you can call it cope, but it's also like, hey, to be paranoid in the face of like thousands of people potentially dying, which is what he predicted. And by the way, I maintain, I think all of us maintain, very easily could have been the outcome of the strikes in Iran.

Sorry, I apologize for being a little bit paranoid about that scenario, and that's where he seems to have landed. Well, I also, I mean, the point about he always shills Trump, I think is an important one. You know, it's always Mark Levin's fault, it's Ted Cruz's fault, and thank God we have Trump in there who actually cares about avoiding nuclear war. I mean that also I think leads him to have to accept the Trump framing that this brought

Iran to the table when, of course we know the truth is, Iran was at the table when we helped the Israelis literally blow up our own negotiations, which appear to have some prospect of success. So I think that's significant. Obviously, I enjoyed watching him call Mark Levin and Ted Cruz repulsive ghouls. We have more on Ted Cruz, by the way, because he wasn't done with him and had some interesting comments about him and also about Gaza. Let's go ahead and take a listen to that. I've got nothing against Ted Cruz personally. I feel sorry for Ted Cruz,

obviously a totally hollow person taking instructions, but I do think we learned this is not someone who should be influencing wars because he just doesn't know anything, he doesn't care, and he's not putting America's interests anywhere near the top of his priorities. We saw that, it's on tape, and it's kind of hard to unsee it. So this is the moment to just draw a line and say,

we can have all kinds of disagreements, and I'm sure that we will, over all kinds of things, including wars, but if you've shown that you just don't care what happens to the United States, if you're one of the people who said, you know, the people in Gaza are so dangerous that they have to be expelled from Gaza, and by the way, maybe we should move them to the US, people said that. I think Ben Shapiro said that. If you are telling me that the people who live in Gaza are so evil that they can't live where they were born, they have to move somewhere else.

And oh, by the way, they should move to my country. What are you saying? You're saying that your country is a trash can into which we can throw a refuse. And that's their attitude. So totally hollow person taking instructions, but nothing personal Ted Cruz. Classic Ted Cruz. He also went after Laura Loomer. I mean, he really went down the list of people who he saw as being complete and total enemies

at this point. He made a Dave Smith joke too. And after he did that, he was like, I hadn't been there. And after he did that, I was like, we're playing Tucker enemy bingo. I have bingo at this point. We've gone through everyone. So yeah, he also mentioned, I asked him if he'd talked to Trump in the last couple of days since they're sort of back and forth

last week where Trump said something like maybe Tucker should get a cable news show, like great boomer insults at Tucker so that people actually know what he's saying. But they talked and so Tucker said that he had talked to Trump in the last couple of days and then he repeated the line that the good guy is one this time and that's really interesting to me because it sounds like Tucker and Steve Bannon feel as though their interventions over the weekend Saved Trump from going into regime change mode and I don't know how accurate that is because

It's just really hard to say what happened. But they seem to think that they were lobbying against the Lindsey Graham, Mark Levin, and Mark Levin is indeed still calling for Trump to push Iran to sign a document of unconditional surrender, whatever that actually means. And so there's still risk here that Donald Trump, it's like as Sager says, Versailles. I mean, that's truly what we're learning. Not that we couldn't have predicted that, but that's what we're learning right now.

So that means there's still, I think there's still very real risk going forward. Yeah, I mean, it is interesting in terms of what you were saying about the lobbying. I do agree. I mean, it's probably overstated to a certain extent, but to say it had zero influence is just obviously not true. What I actually find more interesting is the war

that's happening right now, like you said, there really is just a split completely on the Israel question at this point against Tucker Carlson. I mean, you know, Dave Rubin, you have multiple, like Ben Shapiro and others. I mean, I guess, it's not like Tucker's been silent on them either and going back now, probably a couple of years,

but I don't think it's ever been so outright and in the open. And it is interesting that he doesn't seem actually all that interested in making peace per se and is really just like, no, fuck you, actually. What do you make of that? Yeah, no, I mean, I think that's, that's one of the most important political consequences

of all of this is mega is over. And that sounds dramatic, but if this, like this peace deal is sort of tenuous, alleged peace deal, we still have to see what happens, is tenuous, but Marjorie Taylor Greene, Tucker Carlson are never going to be able to like just agree to disagree with the Dave Rubens and Ben Shapiro's ever again. And does that mean MAGA is over?

Well, from my perspective, yeah. I mean, I think that actually is a permanent schism in the coalition. And the other thing that we've seen over the course of last week is that when Trump violates what I call a load-bearing column of MAGA, which is anti-interventionism, it's not just like another thing that comes with the bundle. It's a load-bearing column is what holds up this coalition. When he violates that, people are Bannon, Tucker, they're willing

to go against him. Maybe Tulsi wasn't, but people on the outside are willing to go against him. Now, of course, as we've been talking about, they feel like they won. I kind of asked Tucker at one point in our conversation, I heard the reporting that Trump was watching Fox News and was really swayed by how impressive the images of the Israelis were.

And Tucker said he thinks that's true too. And this is coming from somebody who talked to Trump in the last couple of days. So there's something I think that's really was lost for MAGA in all of this. And the question is how serious that is, but it's there. I mean, it's a scar for sure. But you know, Emily, I hear what you're saying on that

at the sort of influencer level. But first of all, you are you already had Tucker never disputed that he called Trump to apologize. Bannon, before any of this was resolved, came out and said, listen, at the end of the day, we're gonna follow, we're gonna just trust in Trump and believe that if he does something we don't want him to, he had intelligence that we didn't see and we just know it's gonna be the right decision. And I was looking at the polling from YouGov. Before the bombing, 53% of Republicans opposed it and only 23% supported it. After Trump decides he's going to bomb, completely flips. Then you only have 12%, 12% who oppose it and 69% who approve. So to me that proves the point that Trump was making

of like I am America first, I get to say what is America first because at the end of the day he knows whatever decision he makes, his maybe not every influencer, but his base are going to go along and you know I guarantee you too that and we already saw it with Bannon

and Tucker didn't say as much, but certainly with Bannon, god, Charlie Kirk. Once Trump decided we are going to bomb these nuclear sites, then the goalposts were moved again, and then it was, oh, but we'll make sure it's not a regime change, we'll make sure it's not boots on the ground. And a lot of effort spent justifying the decision

after the fact, even as they had originally expressed skepticism and discontent with that potential direction. Yeah. And I think what they would say is they were the ones who prevented it from becoming a regime change operation. So they feel like they won in some sense, even though Trump actually ordered the strikes, which is why I asked Tucker, well, would this have happened? I mean, this thing that we're holding up as a victory right now, would this have happened without the

strikes in the first place? And he conceded, probably not. So I think the polling is really interesting on that too, Crystal. He could, he could nuke someone, Trump could nuke someone on Fifth Avenue and still not lose any support. But yeah, I think for the sort of average voter, there's a level of trust and Trump is still the glue that holds MAGA together, but professional MAGA. That's I mean, to whatever extent that's important, probably not electorally important, but the groups that like hold the conferences and do all of that like professional MAGA beltway stuff. I think this is a real schism for them.

And that could be more or less important, I don't know. As a content creator, to me it's very important. Well, okay, I'll put it this way. As the polling showed, these people are gonna go along with Trump no matter what. So I said this earlier, this is a game of elites. This is literally a Washington game. As to, if they're gonna go along no matter what,

then we should just do what we think is right at a policy level and then let them follow. So if Trump, you know, Trump is now calling for world peace, while you and I are talking, he just is saying that he's gonna remove sanctions on China buying oil from Iran. The neocons are going to lose it over that one. That's a multi-billion dollar check

going into the Iranian bank accounts. I mean, now he's saying, God bless Iran. My point is that they will go along with it no matter what he does. So the point then is actually these factions and all of this stuff, it does kind of matter because that's what's influencing stuff at the very highest level inside the White House

in the National Security Council at a staff level right you know of what these people are all reading but yeah anything else you want to get into before you go I thought it was a great interview yeah great job Emily and I told you I did not envy you having to do that interview just very consequential at a time when we were all like right what the fuck is actually happening right now so good job with that no it No, it was overwhelming and it was booked last week before all of this happened, so it turned out to be interesting timing.

Great timing. But yeah, I just wanted to thank you guys for being so supportive and having me here. I appreciate you guys a ton. All right, everybody go subscribe. Feelings mutual. Links down in the description, et cetera. We'll see you later.

I guess you're on tomorrow. I'll see you later, no, I'll see you tonight for the live stream. No, sorry, you're on tonight. Yeah, you and I have a date. That's right. What's up with you guys in late nights? 10 p.m., did you come up with that time? I'll see you later, no, I'll see you tonight for the live stream. Yeah, you and I have a date. What's up with you guys in late nights? 10 p.m., did you come up with that time?

Where did this shit come from? I'm a night owl, leave me alone. That's crazy, yeah. Yeah, we got from your producer, like, oh, can you guys come on? I'm like, what the fuck are you talking about? Yes, I will do it for you. You guys pre-taped?

But you are, it is a sacrifice, I'm just gonna tell you that. We'll see you later. I understand, I will do it for you. But you are, it is a sacrifice, I'm just gonna tell you that. We'll see you later. I understand. Congratulations. Alright, bye, see you later. I know a lot of cops, and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun?

Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. Across the country cops called this Taser the revolution. But not everyone was convinced it was that simple. Cops believed everything that Taser told them. From Lava for Good and the team that brought you Bone Valley comes a story about what happened when a multi-billion dollar company dedicated itself to one visionary mission. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. It's really, really, really bad.

Listen to new episodes of Absolute Season One, Taser Inc. on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Binge episodes one, two, and three on May 21st and episodes four, five, and six on June 4th. Add free at Lava for Good Plus on Apple Podcasts. Over the past six years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, I've learned one thing. No town is too small for murder. I'm Catherine Townsend. I've received hundreds of messages from people across the country begging for help with unsolved murders. I was calling about the murder of my husband at the cold case. I've never found her and it haunts me to this day. The murderer is still out there.

Every week on Hell and Gone Murder Line, I dig into a new case, bringing the skills I've learned as a journalist and private investigator to ask the questions no one else is asking. Police really didn't care to even try. She was still somebody's mother, she was still somebody's daughter,

she was still somebody's sister. There's so many questions that we've never gotten any kind of answers for. If you have a case you'd like me to look into, call the Hell and Gone Murder Line at 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The summer of 1993 was one of the best of my life. I'm journalist Jeff Perlman, and this is Rick Jervis.

We were interns at the Nashville Tennessean, but the most unforgettable part? Our roommate, Reggie Payne from Oakland, sports editor and aspiring rapper. And his stage name? Sexy Sweat. In 2020, I had a simple idea. Let's find Reggie. We searched everywhere, but Reggie was gone. In February 2020, Reggie was having a diabetic episode. His mom called 911. Police cuffed him face down. He slipped into a coma and died.

I'm like thanking you, but then I see my son's not moving. No headlines, no outrage, just silence. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeart Radio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Joining us now is Professor Jeffrey Sachs at Columbia University, an expert and somebody

we wanted to speak with for quite a long time. So sir, thank you so much for joining us. We really appreciate it. Great to be with you. Thank you. Absolutely. I mean, first, let's just start off with the insanity of the last 24 hours. I know you've been monitoring, quote, the situation as all of us have.

And we just want to get your reaction to the broader ramifications of this ceasefire, at least for now, between Israel and Iran and the role here of the United States. Well, this has been an absolutely wild week. In a way, it is Bibi's fulfillment of a 30-year mission to try to drag the United States into a war with Iran. This latest episode has been part of a long-term idea of Netanyahu, which is we're going to do what we want in Gaza, the West Bank. We're going to control everything. We'll kill. We'll have a genocide, and anyone that objects any

other country in the region, well, we'll overthrow that government. That's been the basic strategy for 30 years. For 30 years, the United States has gone along with that strategy, whether it is in Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Sudan, Libya, and Iran was always the big prize. Netanyahu's been absolutely itching for a big war with Iran trying to drag the US in. What we saw last week probably was the great battle inside between the deep state, which is absolutely in line with Mossad. It's basically a Mossad CIA operation for 30 years. And MAGA, which says, stop, we're sick of this.

We're sick of these wars. The president, I don't know where he is because I haven't checked my social media for the last 30 seconds, but he's been on both sides of this. But his base has been saying, do not do this, do not do this. Whereas Netanyahu has been saying, next year in Tehran,

or his ministers have been putting that out in disgusting vulgarity. So I don't know whether this is gonna stop, but this is a battle of a long-term strategy of Netanyahu remake the Middle East to give basically complete total impunity to Israel to do every murder, massacre, genocide that it wants to do. And some of us who think,

that's not making the world a better place. That's not helping anything and it's not making America more secure. Thanks God if this ceasefire holds, that's a good thing. That's the bottom line. Yeah. Professor, let's pull on that thread a little bit more of the Israelis.

As you mentioned, this has been a multi-decade project of Netanyahu specifically, but it's broadly supported with the Israeli public and certainly with his entire coalition, including literal terrorists that are involved in his government. So he's not going to give up and say, OK, ceasefire, and now we have peace with Iran. That is certainly not going to happen. So what do you expect to see based on previous historical actions from the Israelis? What do you expect the Israelis to do next to try to play their next card to get us drawn in yet again?

Well, the Israelis will make new provocations, that's for sure. They will make arguments that now we see the perfidy of Iran or for whatever argument to keep drawing us in. I have said for years, I think decades now, that the main job of the President of the United States in modern times is to keep the foot on the brake of the war machine, because it's always revving. If you went to the deep state in the last few days, I think bombing missions against Iran are just splendid. Let's try out those B2s. Let's see how the bunker busters do.

And going beyond that, the regime change. Well, that was in half the tweets of the last, or social truth posts of the last few days. So I think that Israel will provoke, and it is the job of the United States when in rare moments presidents do their job to keep the foot on the brake. And this morning, Trump unusually chastised Israel

in a post saying, do not drop that bomb. Well, actually that's his job. It's pretty interesting. He did it this time, yesterday was different. We'll see what happens tomorrow. So one of the things I'm curious about, sir, you're obviously always looked at the bigger picture

and there was a lot made potentially of Russia and China coming in on Iran's side. That didn't materialize to a major extent, but there were at least some entanglements. We can put this one up on the screen. For example, former President Medvedev of Russia at one point basically threatened, you know, basically said the Americans have accomplished nothing in their strikes. Potentially we could transfer nukes to them. He walked it back a little bit later,

saying a number of countries are ready to directly supply Iran with their own nuclear warheads, but then he walked it back later. What do you make, though, of how the Russians and the Chinese will respond to what's transpired in the last 12 days? Yeah, I think, by the way, what Medvedev was saying in that point number three was not Russia

transferring nuclear arms or endorsing that, but the fact that Pakistan is a country closely aligned with the Islamic cause, obviously, and with Iran, and absolutely able to transfer nuclear weapons. North Korea is another case. And I think that's an important point by the way, because we've been told that the be all and end all is Iran's enrichment of uranium.

That is not the true issue at stake here. The true issue at stake is, is Israel vulnerable by its own actions to a nuclear attack on Israel? The answer is yes. Does Israel create more security for itself the way that it operates? My answer is no. It makes Israel more and more dangerous. Not only did we see, obviously, that the Iron Dome ain't so iron and that there were easily, it was not hard to penetrate the air defenses in Israel. But Israel seems to think that Iran is the end of the story, and it is not the end of

the story. There are 57 countries in the Organization of Islamic Cooperation that are absolutely dead set against what Israel is doing. The vast majority of the world is dead set against it. When you ask about Russia and China, it is their fundamental purpose not to be thrown under the bus of the United States. This is the basic point. They want a multipolar world, not a US dominated world. And they are succeeding in that because the US does not have the means, the power, in my view, the interest, but put that aside,

the means or the power to make a US dominated world, despite what Washington has believed for more than 30 years. So Russia and China are careful. China's very precise. I think it is a cliche, but it's also true that Russia plays chess, China plays Go, and the United States plays poker. One hand at a time, very quick, not any long-term strategy, just go for the hand. And I think that China and Russia bided their time in the first days.

But the point was really Iran was not decapitated and with regime change, nor was it stopped in its ability to do great damage inside Israel up until the very last moment, which really irks the Israelis that it was the last exchange of missiles in this case was Iran's. And then Israel tried to violate the timeline and launch another one so it

could be last and that's when Trump said, no, stop. We already have an understanding about the chronology. So we are watching step by step the emerging of a true multipolar world where other powers that don't love the United States, they don't hate it, by the way, they just don't want to be subservient to it. They have nuclear arms, powerful weapons, the technologies that we have so that we can't dominate. And Iran is a regional power.

It's not a pushover for Israel by any means. There was no one strike and it's all over. One of the things that may have happened last week, I don't know, of course, but Netanyahu, you know, telling Trump, we can do it, we can do it, we can do it. And they did their decapitation murders. Mossad really is a murder machine, of course. And it did its decapitation strike,

and it did not bring down the regime. And so it probably led Trump and people around him to say, come on, what are, you know, the Israelis have given us a bunch of BS on this. It didn't change the regime. It didn't end the threats. And I think that's when Trump heard his base calling. He heard common-sense calling and he said, look this isn't going according to plan. And I think the main point is with Russia and China they were cautious but they weren't

letting Iran fall by any means. And if Iran were to be facing a more cataclysmic set of events in the last few days, I think the reactions also would have been different. Interesting. To your point about perhaps Israelis were selling and perhaps they even believed that they would be able to create a regime collapse in short time. The Washington Post got ahold of this leaked audio of Mossad agents calling Israeli generals and saying, you have 12 hours,

or else we're gonna murder you and your wife and kids, by the way, and if you wanna avoid that fate, you need to record yourself surrendering. You need to film this surrender video and send it to us, which of course would have been used as propaganda by the Israelis, and as best we know, not one of them did that, which of course would have been used as propaganda by the Israelis. And as best we know, not one of them did that, which I think, you know, in and of itself is an indication that they may have miscalculated the strength of this regime, especially once

a country is bombed, like it's very common for people to rally around the flag. But I wanted to ask you, with regards to Israel, so they have bombed, you know, they're committing a genocide in Palestine in the Gaza Strip. They bombed Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, Iran, Iraq, and are a nuclear-armed nation outside of the NPT, you know, did have a secret nuclear weapons program and, you know, are a rogue nation, I think, by any characterization at this point.

Is there going to be any consequence for them? Like, is there any sort of longer-term consequence for the fact that they have behaved in this outrageous, barbaric fashion over years at this point, and, you know, really made themselves a villain in terms of the eyes of much of the world? you know, really made themselves a villain in terms of the eyes of much of the world.

I think Israel is in its worst insecurity in its history by far because it is utterly isolated in the international system. I'm sitting just outside the UN. I've been attending UN Security Council meetings, UN General Assembly sessions. You have 95% of the world population voting against Israel right now. You have an overwhelming call for the absolutely practical state of Palestine being established

on the borders of the 4th of June, and Israel learning finally after decades and decades. It's just going to have to live alongside the Palestinian people who have the same number population as the Israeli Jews. And this is the most basic point of all. Israel has no security from all of this. It has achieved nothing except a wasteland in its neighborhood. And if it wants security, the only security is to rejoin the family of nations. And the way to do that is straightforward. It's according to international law. It's according to basic common sense. It's according to decency. It's according to endless resolutions of the U.N. Security Council and the U.N. General Assembly. and that

is that there would be a state of Palestine for the Palestinian people alongside a state of Israel. And President Trump actually can make that happen. If he wants his Nobel Peace Prize, it's not by this ceasefire after this behavior of the last week. It is by a Palestinian state being established. How does that happen? One vote change in the UN Security Council. The US vetoed this last year when it came to a vote in the Security Council, which is the part of the UN system or the international

system that establishes the statehood membership in the UN. All the United States has to do is to say, we go along with all the rest of the world and tell Israel, wake up, we're saving you. We're not hurting you. We are saving you from yourself, however. It's just crazy what Israel's doing. And the idea that this is any security. I think they should understand that with apartment buildings in Be'er Sheva being destroyed, with Haifa being attacked, with Tel Aviv being

attacked, with the countries outside of the region like Pakistan and DPRK watching, if Israel thinks it has any security at all from its brazenness, it should think it again. And by the way, what we saw in the Mossad tape, which is chilling, of course, to listen to, is that Mossad became a killing machine. It's very skillful at mass murder, I would say, not mass murder in the sense that the murder of the leadership of the Iranian military last week. Yes, that's Mossad's business. But to have that as your centerpiece of statehood, to be murder incorporated incorporated is not going to get you safety or security

or any sound sleep any day in your life. Israel needs to rethink fundamentally this BB strategy which goes back to 1996 when he first became prime minister. And I think to your point, they're not going to rethink it because the public is broadly supportive of the BB strategy. It has to be forced upon them. And the United States of America can do that if there is any will to do it. It depends always, it has always depended

on the United States going along. By the way, people should get online if they haven't done it recently. And look at Netanyahu's speech to the US Congress in 2002 telling him how wonderful the Iraq war is going to be. Oh, it's a cakewalk. It's going to inspire the whole region. This man is nuts. He's a failure for 30 years. He's the biggest warmonger on the planet. If Trump wants a successful presidency, don't sign on to this idiocy. Do your job, Mr. President. Make peace in the region. That has to be. You give the state of Palestine alongside the state of Israel, stop the genocide, and go along with international law. It's pretty straightforward.

It's there for the taking. All right. Well, sir, we always appreciate your analysis and it was great talking to you. Thank you very much for joining us. Thank you, Professor. Pleasure to be with you. Thank you. Thanks so much for watching, guys.

We appreciated Crystal and Emily on the live stream and then Griffin and Ryan from New York City covering the mayoral race tonight. So make sure you tune in for that and we will see you all later. I know a lot of cops and they get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season One, Taser Incorporated, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The OGs of uncensored motherhood are back and batter than ever.

I'm Erica. And I'm Mila. And we're the hosts of the Good Moms Bad Choices podcast, brought to you by the Black Effect Podcast Network every Wednesday. Yeah, we're moms, but not your mommy. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then

this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you go to find your podcast. I'm Jeff Pearlman. And I'm Rick Jervis. We're journalists and hosts of the podcast Finding Sexy Sweat. At an internship in 1993, we roomed with Reggie Payne, aspiring reporter and rapper who went by Sexy Sweat. A couple years ago, we set out to find him. But in 2020, Reggie fell into a coma after police pinned him down and he never woke up. But then I see my son's not moving. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat on the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

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