Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 6/30/26: Portnoy Threatens Zohran Challenge, CNBC Explodes Over AI Bubble, Kevin O'Leary Data Center Humiliation

Episode Date: June 30, 2026

Krystal and Emily discuss Portnoy threatens Zohran challenge, CNBC panel explodes over AI bubble, Kevin O'Leary humiliation on data center. Robert Pape: https://escalationtrap.substack.com/ Pisco: https://www.youtube.com/@PiscoLitty    To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com    Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Some very interesting comments from Dave Portnoy. Yesterday on Fox News with Jesse Waters, apparently he is considering a run for office and maybe even would run against Zoran Mamdani for mayor of New York City. Lids take a listen. Losing my mind on what's happening right now,

especially in New York. Yeah. I mean, you've got the Nazi in Maine. This really, really, really worries me. You might run against Mondani. I would love to run against. If I was going to run, it would be here. Can I win here?

I have no idea. I don't know the demographics, whether they get enough votes. There's a lot of people who like me in New York City. I know that. I've done a lot of good in New York City when I wasn't thinking about politics, whether it's the barstool fund, pizza places. So it wasn't for show. I've had a real job.

I've done real things. Unlike these clown politicians who have never had a job and never. been in the real world for a day. Right. But the people voting for these people who's won are like these young white, like, Ivy League-ish, elite-ish women. It's like, who are they? Like, they'll never vote for me.

They'll never believe in common sense. When you're unhappy, you want to make other people unhappy. I don't think your election is going to go too well if you start off by insulting the voting base, you know? And I just, I mean, I don't to take this too seriously. But we talked yesterday about how Zoron's favorability just keeps going up in the state at large, but in the city of New York specifically, which is obviously his constituents. Also, fantastic analysis from Michael Lang, who looks at New York politics like block by block of the coalitions that not only elected Zoran, but now have elected Dari Elisa and elected Claire Valdez. And so this notion that Portnoy is offering here, that, oh, the voters are just like the young college.

educated white girls, you are not going to win a Harlem congressional district on the backing of young, delusional white girls, nor are you going to win, you know, in really anywhere in the city, which is highly diverse, multiracial. And so when you're talking about, you know, these coalitions that have come together, it is a young, multiracial coalition that is backing these candidates. And they really have grown beyond, significantly beyond that, like, initial white activist base. And I think that is why there's a big freak out because you could no longer just say, well, you can only win in this type of district or you only can win this with this type of voter.

When you have that level of broad-based support, it becomes much more of a threat. But in any case, I mean, I don't really take this seriously, but I do think it would be funny if he ran against Zoran. And I think he would run into a brick wall because right now New Yorkers are absolutely loving Zoran. It's the toxic millennial election that we deserve, really. 100%. Yeah, that's, it's, I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if he tries to do something like that one day. Really?

Would that surprise me? It wouldn't surprise me. I don't know. I'm not that much of a student of Dave Portnoy. I just do think it's funny because he's, you know, there was this whole, like, saga would talk about the Barstool Conservatism, which is the core theme of which was being, like, anti-woke. And, but when it comes to, you know, anything regarding Israel and quote-unquote anti-Semitism

and suddenly, you know, oh, my God, Graham Platner's tattoo in his Reddit post, he's a Nazi, right? The quote, Nazi running in Maine, he just said. Yes, exactly. So I do find it, it's kind of laughable from him. But you heard some of the megalomania, even in that interview. He was like, all of the good that I've done. That's what I'm saying. Like, I could actually see that.

I could see him at some point. Maybe even, like, just dipping his toe in. He hires a consultant, tries to test the waters a little bit. But, you know, it is interesting because in New York, that block-by-block analysis from Michael Lang, I was looking at yesterday. And I was comparing it with what just happened here in D.C. where a lot of the polling did indeed find, you could call it, like, gentrifiers. We're more attracted to Janice Lewis George, the Democratic Socialist.

the DSA candidate here in D.C. But what I think is interesting when you look at New York is that this is where the DSA is seeing it as, I don't want to say a laboratory because that kind of downplays it, but like a political laboratory to build a coalition. Yeah. And it's actually working. It's picking up working class voters, non sort of elite voters to borrow the Portnoy word, which is true in other cases. Like you have seen that happen in other cases.

But that's what's happening right now under the nose of people like Dave Portnoy, is that they're actually building a coalition that's different from what we've seen in the past, where they're bringing aboard working class people, looking at even like the Esplot results, was fascinating because it was different actually from what we just saw here in D.C. It was not clear cut in any way. Well, in D.C., if memory serves, Janice Lewis George, first of all, she won quite convincingly, overwhelmingly. And again, in D.C., you can't do that if you have an all-white coalition. You know, there continues to be a very diverse city.

And she, the only areas that she lost were the wealthiest, whitest areas of the city. So she also was able to really defy the conventional wisdom about what her campaign was and what it was appealing to and did win on a multiracial, multi-class, you know, class diverse also coalition, which is something similar to what we saw here. Let's go ahead and put up, this is another sort of shot across the bow. for, I think, mainstream analysis and also Fox News analysis, but D1 up on the screen. This, I noted this with great interest.

So they did this poll where they asked people their zero to 100 feeling of various politicians. And so this is like, your vibe. Do you like these people? Not, you know, their policies are what? They're just like, do you like these people? The most popular politician among the Democratic base continues to be Barack Obama by a pretty, decent margin. He's at 54. Next up, you've got Bernie Sanders. You see this becoming very relevant in a lot of these primaries. So he is endorsed, for example, Abdul al-Syad in Michigan. And Abdul has been

running ads touting his Bernie Sanders endorsement. And from this poll, you can understand why he's doing that. Guess who comes in right on the heels of the goat Bernie Sanders himself, Zoranamdani. And then you have the Democratic Party overall. I'm actually surprised that it scores that well. Pete Buttigieg, John Ossoff, and then you have AOC. So some of the most popular Democratic figures for Democratic voters are Bernie Sanders and Zoran Mamdani. I think that is pretty noteworthy.

And the Republican ones here, too, are interesting. First of all, no Republican really rates all that high. It's just kind of noteworthy. Marco Rubio comes in first right around the AOC mark. you've got the Republican Party. Then you've got J.D. Vance and Donald Trump. Then you've got Elon Musk, Mike Johnson, John Thune. And this is, one is worth, well, we should do another segment on the Tucker Carlson, like the theory that he could win a Republican primary, because he comes in pretty low here at 25 percent. And I think that's a, or 28 percent, rather. And I do think there is a

little bit of delusion about what the Republican base would be looking for in a candidate. And since Tucker has gotten crosswise with Trump, you know, that's something that matters a lot to the Republican base. So I think he would have a hard time winning a Republican primary at this point. This is so, so interesting. Like, these results are really, really interesting for a number of reasons, one of which is, to your point, not a lot of Republicans rating up there. Marco Rubio, back in 2015, I think there was polling, I have to remember the specific poll. I remember it being written up in the Washington Post, but he was of all of the Republican candidates who were flirting with the nomination at that point, they pulled him in.

against Hillary Clinton. And Rubio was the only one of all the Republican candidates that was actually beating Clinton with millennials at the time, the young voting demo back in 2015. Oh, my God. And that's actually, like, I think there is something about Rubio that gets underestimated, both in the MAGA right and sometimes on the left, which is that his ability to communicate conservative ideas in a way that feels, I would say, almost non-political when he's really cooking when he's giving like a stump speech. That's also what caused him problems in the 2016

election because Chris Christie called him out for like sticking to his talking points. So anyway, all that is to say, I understand why Rubio is up there further. I think especially when you have a more like multiracial voting electorate or electorate in general. With the Republican base. Yeah. There's something about Rubio that clicks with more people. So I don't know. I mean, And it doesn't surprise me that he's the one Republican that's up there a little bit higher. It's not to say that he's like a shoe in, but it is to say the reason that Trump, who is pretty, like, one thing he understands is television and social media, and understands is an interesting way to put it. But he has a knack. We'll put it that way.

It's an animal instinct. It's an animal instinct. That's well said. I think it's one of the reasons he gravitates towards Rubio is that he sees there's a telegenic element of him that J.D. Vance doesn't have. So that was interesting. But these DSA people have become pop culture figures. Yeah. Truly. It doesn't mean that that's going to be enough to win a primary and then a presidential election, but it does speak to something in the culture that is much more favorable to that right now. Yeah. Well, and with Zoran, so Zoran really at this point, you know, because Bernie is is older.

And Zoran is the one who's really out there in the face of the movement at this point and putting the principles into practice and notching wins in New York City. And there was such an incredible freak out about him. We talked a little bit about yesterday that I also think that the critics of not just him, but by proxy, the candidates that he supports, end up looking very hysterical and disconnected from the impression that most people have of them that comes through with, you know, Portnoy here calling Graham Platner a Nazi. I mean, if you genuinely think this guy is a Nazi, like that is completely insane. You're going to have issues with, you know, things he said and blah, Or you control based on it, be like, oh, you guys have a Nazi, but if you genuinely think...

If you really genuinely think that this man is a Nazi, like that is just completely delusional. And not helpful to your argument. Read through his Reddit posts, right? You can see all of his political views there, plainest day, and they have nothing, no bearing, you know, no relationship to any sort of Nazi ideology. At the same time, Bruce Blakman, who's the county executive for Nassau County in New York, which is a large county. He went on Fox News and called Brad Lander, a Jewish man who happens to oppose war crimes being committed by Israel with the consent and assistance of our government

compares him to a Nazi guard and a quote unquote collaborator, utterly insane, delusional, absurd reading of things. Let's go ahead and take a listen to Bruce Blakeman. I think the question, though. He talks about genocide in God. when there was no genocide in Gaza. What you had was you had a military action with military objectives on the part of Israel. Take that in contrast to Hamas,

which raped women, cut off babies' heads and shot people that were unarmed. So when you compare that, there's no moral equivalency. But in what instance, well, I mean, talk about a moral equivalency, you're likening him to a Nazi guard. Well, he's a collaborator. That seems like a false moral equivalency.

No, no, he's a collaborator. There's no question in my mind. He's either a collaborator or a coward. And what is that distinction? I saw you said that to the New York Times. What is the distinction in likening someone to a Nazi concentration? Well, you have to know World War II history. You have to know about the Holocaust.

And the collaborators were people who were Jewish who would identify Jewish families, Jewish children that were in hiding. I understand the facts. I'm saying what is the difference in the distinction you're making in terms of Mr. Bradlander? The distinction I'm making is that the fact. that he is Jewish, has nothing to do with his positions. As a matter of fact, being a Jewish person, a Jewish public official, it should be his responsibility to speak out and speak the truth.

This is just beyond disgusting. And of course, he has to repeat the atrocity propaganda lies, the babies that are beheaded, you know, the mass rape, which is contested. And then I love as he says that Hamas shot people who were unarmed. Do you know what Israel has, has been doing for these past, not just post-October 7th, but for literally decades, I mean, we can show you the babies who have been executed by Israel, by the IDF. And furthermore, we are not funding and arming Hamas. We are funding and arming Israel. So, but to smear Bradlander this way is just utterly disgusting. I mean, let's put the next images up on the screen. This is the man at the pride parade that you were saying is a Nazi.

collaborator that he's like the equivalent of a Nazi guard here. And it's just, and so this is where any normal person, like I know there are Fox News grandmas that will eat this kind of thing up, right? CNN grandmas. And maybe some CNN grandmas, but not that many, I don't think, at this point, given how not just young people in Democratic Party, but there has been a whole shift of viewpoint in the Democratic Party top to bottom and very much among independence as well. But, you know, outside of the Fox News and right-wing echo chamber, people are going to look at Brad Lander and listen to him talk and his viewpoints.

And here you compare him to a Nazi and think you are completely insane and out to lunch. Yeah, and that propaganda used to work, including on people like me, until like, what, five years ago, especially the last several years. But it's really powerful and it's really gross. And it's also, I'll just argue, if you're a proponent of a robust alliance with Israel, it's not, helpful to your cause whatsoever because you are totally, first of all, the smear has lost its power, but second of all, you are totally misreading and arguing against a straw man, which is not, again, going to be helpful for you to defeat the arguments of people who are saying, look at what Israel did in Gaza over the last several years, continuing to just say, you're a Nazi collaborator,

doesn't prepare you to defeat that argument in the court of public opinion, especially now that people have so much more access to information, bypassing the traditional gatekeepers. That argument actually is very interesting as like a media artifact because what you see him almost coasting on, thinking he can coast on, is just saying, well, you've got to know the history of World War II and the, how did it, babies, and Caitlin was pushing back. Yeah. And he wasn't, I honestly think he was surprised to get that level of pushback on CNN prime time. Well, he should have gone on with Jake Tapper or Dana Bash.

It might have gone differently. made have gone in a different direction. But those were basic questions, right? Absolutely. Those are totally fair basic questions. And again, I think you could reflexively kind of coast on the goodwill a lot of Americans had towards Israel and the genuine opposition. This is why I think is so disgusting about it.

The genuine opposition a lot of Americans have to actual bigotry. Like we have made enormous strides. If you look at public polling on anti-Semitic sentiments, like what we have made in terms of progress on that in this country very quickly, by the way, is a really big. beautiful thing that we actually should be proud of. And to prey on the disgust the average American has towards bigotry is so, like that's what I find to be the most disgusting element of all of it, because it's exploitation of something that we've worked really hard. Of a noble impulse. Yeah, well, I think he should listen to Vice President J.D. Vance, who says that if everything is Jew

hatred, then nothing is true hatred. I think maybe he should take a listen to some of the things the Vice President has said recently. We've got some really significant, you know, primary challenges happening today in the state of Colorado. Emily and Ryan will, of course, cover the results tomorrow, put D-5 up on the screen. We interviewed yesterday two of the candidates in these races, Milat Kuros, who is challenging Diana to get in a Denver congressional district. And that one really looks very possible. Milat is a DSA candidate. Hassan Piker is there in the state today to rally for her. There's been a surge of enthusiasm for her race and the possibility there. after the DSA victories last week.

Diana DeGat is in the Congressional Progressive Caucus, but there's all this dark money that's flowing in from a variety of shady sources to back her and keep her in because she is, you know, she's, she is progressive on certain issues, but she also, at the end of the day, is quite corporate and, you know, on a key issue for a lot of young voters in particular, but really voters at large in the Democratic Party on Israel,

she has not been good. You also have a, you know, a primary challenge in the governor's race as well that Michael Bennett is running in the Democratic gubernatorial primary, and he is very well known in the state, Senator, all of that sort of stuff. And it looks like he has a stronger challenge than was anticipated. And then Julie Gonzalez, who we also interviewed yesterday, is challenging John Hickenlooper in the Senate. And, you know, there are some indications that her campaign has a lot of energy as well, although I think the statewide lift is more difficult than what Milot would be pulling off in that Denver congressional district. So in any case,

the piece that I just had up there from Politico was just basically like an accounting of how the Dem establishment is completely freaking out. But Colorado is not the only place that they have to be concerned about. We have another left-leaning candidate or in the progressive lane than in the DSA wing that is leading in the Minnesota Senate primary. We can put the D-4 element up on the screen. This is the latest poll out of Minnesota finds Peggy Flanagan, who is the current lieutenant governor at 43 percent, Angie Craig, who is a very moderate Democrat. I think she was like health care medical device something. Anyway, she comes from a corporate job into Congress. She's at 36 percent, and you've got 22 percent who are unsure. So that one is close. But according to this poll,

at least Peggy Flanagan, who is more of the left wing candidate has the lead. And, you know, there's others as well that after Colorado, you're going to be, you know, seeing more of these primary challenges rise to the surface and get online support and traction and national attention because it truly is a party reckoning. Espayat is the perfect example. Again, this is a guy who, and Goldman in Brad Landers opponent who he took out Dan Goldman in Manhattan is another perfect example where... Very Jewish district. So if you're saying he's a Nazi collaborator. One of the most Jewish districts in the country. You're calling a lot of Jews in New York Nazi collaborators or supporters of a Nazi collaborator. Yes. And Lander didn't win by a slim margin. No.

It was called immediately. It was an overwhelming landslide. And Goldman, again, was kind of a resistance dem figure, you know, involved in impeachment hearings and all this sort of stuff on certain issues, position himself as progressive. But at the end of the day, voters said, yeah, but you support moral atrocities that are unacceptable to us. And we want nothing to do with you. And so that's, you know, why they overwhelmingly voted for a guy they felt a lot more comfortable with Bradlander. Yeah, and Ryan will be here, of course, to break down those, as you mentioned, Colorado results tomorrow. Also should mention that Angie Craig got the endorsement yesterday of Minneapolis, Mayor Jacob Fry, who's been obviously out front of the conflicts between the state of Minnesota,

the city of Minneapolis, between them and Donald Trump. But he went with Angie Craig in that endorsement yesterday, who was lagging, according to the polls, so that Crystal just showed. So a lot to watch. And I think one big takeaway, if you're somebody that is sympathetic to the political establishment, maybe you're even like a left of center Democrat who doesn't like what you see from DSA candidates. You're someone on the right who's horrified by what you see from some DSA candidates. I think one of the big themes, just looking at all these races, is how, to your point, Crystal, there is a new coalition building happening on the ground.

It is not just true that this is a totally elite movement anymore. I mean, you and I could debate about whether that was always the case, whatever, but a lot of people coming out of, you know, academia and Chevalier is a good example. I think she's like in her seventh year of a PhD. It's like people who are upwardly mobile, but spend a lot of time in academia at elite schools. That's Columbia in her case. So obviously there's appeal there. But what's happening right now is a broadening of the coalition or attempt to broaden the coalition. And we're seeing some successes at that. Yeah. So that's, I think, a pretty significant development and takeaway for people who are watching this race and, these races and are maybe not happy with the DSA candidates. Look, here's the thing. The establishment sold people, successfully sold people on one model of here's how we're going to defeat Trump. Yep. Right? And it was Dan Goldman. It was Dan Goldman. And it was Dan Goldman. And it was Hillary Clinton. And it was Joe Biden, who was able to eke out of victory, yes, in 2020. But the idea that that was going to be the end of things. And we're going to, quote, unquote, go back to normal. That obviously

didn't happen. So their credibility is in the toilet, even just on a basic, like, pragmatic, okay, how are we going to win? And so people are no longer cowed by this. Well, you may like this candidate, but you can't have them. You got to do this other. We got to go with Angie Craig. You got to go with Haley Stevens. And speaking of Haley Stevens and the Michigan race, the latest polls out have Abdul-Ossia

doing better in the general election against Mike Rogers, who's relatively strong for a Republican candidate, doing better and winning that general election race in a way that Haley Stevenson, Mellar McMorough, or not. So all of those adages that have been sold to people about what you have, the way you got to suck up and accept from your Democratic representatives, they're just not buying it anymore. So the base has always been more aligned ideologically with the Bernie wing of the party. And now that the establishment wing has destroyed their credibility on their electability argument, it has opened up a lot of possibilities. And obviously there's been deep disappointment to with the way that the Democratic establishment has handled themselves in the Trump

2.0 era, and then you add Israel to that mix, and it becomes quite a powerful force to be reckoned with. Final thought for me? We'll tie this all together with your Utah segment, Crystal, but if you are unhappy with either left populism or right populism, because a lot of right populists are very unhappy now with left populism, finding less kind of like handshakes as there was previously on antitrust and big tech, and to the extent that was real. There's clear division now, but if you're unhappy with that, obviously, I think we can all agree on exactly what Crystal just said about the establishment, whether it's the Republican establishment or the Democratic establishment. And Trump, as somebody who's anti-establishment or wanted to tell people it was anti-establishment, is currently tabling the housing bill, the bipartisan housing bill between Tim Scott and Elizabeth Warren because they won't pass the SAVE Act, which again is a huge priority for the conservative grassroots. I think it's crazy what Republican senators have done

to try to block that from getting to the floor. But holy smokes, your boomer president is tabling a housing bill to get the save. Like, you can maybe try to do both of these things. And he's trying to say that without the Save Act, you end up not having a country. But I'm just saying the options that you are offering young people, the more insufficient those options are,

the more people are going to continue finding the better option to be an imperfect option in many cases. They won't say, there was a crazy poll recently. I think it was Zoron. I think it was exit polls from Zoran that found people were voting for him, even though they don't like socialism. They're voting for Democratic Socialists, even though they weren't supportive of socialism.

Because the other options are so terrible. So start offering better options and stop blaming China for running an op that's making people favorable to socialism, like, humorism. Like, just start offering better options. We'll come back to that when we get to the Utah block and the Chinese alleged misinformation. angle here. Indeed we will. An IHart Radio experience.

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And I'm Tom Boger. On our podcast, Inside American Soccer, we'll talk about the real storylines. I'm not worried about Policic. I'm not worried about Balligan. I'm not worried about McKinney. My only concern is what happens in the back. And give you the truth about the U.S. national team from inside the program. It wouldn't be a huge surprise if our team ends up in the quarterfinals

or potentially a great run into the semifinals. Whether you're a lifelong fan or this is your first World Cup. We've got you covered. Listen, Inside American Soccer with Tom Bogart and Tabramus in the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy.

So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people. Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer. And that was more difficult. There's a lot of people who understand postpartner retirement. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast.

There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. We are tracking escalating warnings that AI is a giant bubble. that may collapse and take the entire economy down with it. One of the people making that argument is Jeremy Grantham. Sometimes he's characterized as like a perma bear.

He is very skeptical of the idea that the line will just continue to go up forever. Has been for a while, but certainly thinks that AI is a bubble that could prove calamitous for the global economy. Here he is fighting with Joe Kernan on CNBC about exactly this topic. Let's take a listen. Other than the fact that some people have made a lot of money like a chain letter, what does crypto do? I don't understand the question. What is the use of crypto?

It pays no dividend. It doesn't represent an asset. You can put your fingers on. There is nothing there there. It is just an idea that it will go up in price. If you trust me, it will go up in price. On an island, when shells were used to represent an hour of work, you got 100 people each one.

A good comparison. This is completely faith. It represents proof of work. Completely faith face. It represents proof of work. You're going to be totally wrong on Bitcoin, too. You're going to be wrong on everything you've covered. Proof of unnecessary work shouldn't be worth a bucket of warm spit.

The point is it hasn't outlived a general bull market. We've been in a bull market since March of 2009. Right. And when we get into a bear market, which Joe may think we never will be again, a serious bad market of down 50, 60, It's just a... Do we think it will prospect in that environment? Anybody that listen to you from 2010

is you've done a grave disservice to them. So if you feel fine with that, that's what you do for a living. That's fine. I don't have a problem. Andrew invited you on. I'm just pointing out the facts of the situation. If someday you might be right like a broken clock.

Andrew Rossorgan taking some strays there. Wow. Andrew wanted you on. I was really not my idea. I got to start doing that with the DSA. People are like Crystal invited you on. I'm just saying. I'm just saying like, I like, I like that.

Yeah, we should definitely go in that direction. Okay. You want breadlines. Like Crystal invited you here. Crystal invited you here, but, you know, that's your business between you and her. Enjoy your breadlines. I like it. And your Central Park executions or whatever else insanity and your Nazi collaborators.

Anyway. As I told you last week, all I asked is that the execution is painless. I got you, girl. Thank you. Don't worry. Okay. We've got a central bank who is giving Grantham some backup here. in his analysis, we could put this up on the screen. The AI boom profit-up markets could trigger the next

crash central banks warn in its annual economic report published on Sunday, the Bank for International Settlements, known as the Central Bank for Central Banks, warned that the enormous spending on AI is accumulating financial vulnerabilities that could amplify any future shock and spread from markets into the wider economy. If memory serves, this is just the latest of, there have been several central banks that have sounded similar warnings as insane amounts of money flow into this hyperscaling data center build-down. And, you know, you've got companies, and we had Ed Zitron on who laid this out very clearly. You have companies that are assuming that the revenue will catch up with the spend at some point in the future if they are able to make good on their

promises of effectively replacing all of human labor, and that would be a very valuable proposition to a lot of companies, that is what this is all being bet on. And at this point, you know, you have had some displacement, but certainly you haven't had the wave of mass displacement that would be required for these numbers, these valuation numbers and the level of spend to really add up and make sense. Now, on the other side of it, you have the, I think, incontrovertible fact that these companies are effectively too big to fail at this point. They are effectively sort of de facto government entities whenever government wants to intervene and tell them what to do, as this happened in recent cases, most notably with Claude and Anthropic.

We have another case now with OpenAI and ChatGPT's release also being limited. In any case, the government has a great interest in what happens here and is also going to be very interested in making sure the line does continue to go up. The size of the build-out and then sheer amount of cash that is being spent here might be too much for them to ultimately backstop, but I think we both know that they will certainly try. Yeah, so when you have, what, 30% of the Mag 7, we've talked about this a ton, tied up in basically AI stocks at this point, such a sugar high, you end up in this trap where you either have to, and we talked to Ray Troprah about this, you either have to deliver on wiping out 50% of white collar jobs, as Dari Ahmade said that AI would, or you end up with a market crash. So you're in a trap. You either end up with mass job displacement or a crash. Basically, I mean, I don't see a real way out of either of those options. In fact, I even... You may get both. You could get both. That's true. And that is kind of where I am leaning as a likely outcome of this thing. I think it is definitely a bubble. I think it is going

to crash. I also think the technology is very disruptive and I don't think they're going to replace all of human labor, but I do think it is going to cause a lot of economic dislocation. Well, see, this is interesting. I was going to ask you to even flesh that out because I guess it would be the magnitude of the bubble crash and the magnitude of the job displacement or even just the longevity of how, for what period of time there is displacement. Because it is possible that there are a lot of new jobs created because of AI. Like we'll just say that that's a possibility and maybe it takes, there's a lag in the market. It takes five years or something like that for those jobs to be replaced. So you could have this weird position where the markets are

reacting to both of those things, a bubble crash. Like that actually, I'm curious what, when you say you think both of those could happen, you mean like simultaneously both of those Yeah, well, I mean, the classic example people in offering is the railroad boom. Yeah. Right? It was a genuine bubble. It crashed. It was calamitous for the economy.

It also was a genuinely transformational technology. Internet, same thing. I don't really buy into the happy talk about, well, there's some unspecified jobs that we can't really tell you what they are and have no idea what they would be that will emerge from the ether as they have in the past. Because past technologies have not been meant to directly replace humans. you know, they've been meant to replace like horses. This is meant to replace the intellect of the human, which is like the last thing that we can really hold on to as being like, you know, having a superior position

vis-à-vis the mechanical world. So, you know, I need to see some evidence of what these jobs would ultimately be. Now, let me put on the other side, put E3 up on the screen, people took a lot of notice of this yesterday. Ford has rehired hundreds of human engineers after the AI that they implemented failed to match the human-driven quality checks. And Ford is touting this.

They also, a lot of these companies, so Ford has done like, I don't know, 5,300. People have lost their jobs at Ford over just the past recent period. So they're bringing back a few hundred. Now, that doesn't mean that all of those jobs were lost due to automation, but I think it's just worth keeping in mind that the workforce there is still shrinking. And then the other thing when you dig into this is they say they're bringing these people back not to permanently serve as, okay, we're just sticking with humans. They say they want the humans to better train the AI on the systems. Right.

And so, which reminds me very much of what meta is doing, they're using some of their top engineers not to necessarily do the engineer work permanently, but to train the AI that is intended to ultimately replace them. Now, maybe because of the nature of AI, and this is what plenty of people argue, I was just reading a New York Times op-ed this morning that makes this argument, because of the nature of AI, maybe it never can really replace the human quality checkers. You know, maybe it hallucinates too much. Maybe it sort of loses its train of thought as your conversation goes on and on or it continues to do the same work process over and over. it's possible that there are hard and fast limitations where AI development kind of peaks and Peter's out. I will just say that we have not found that wall for AI to hit yet. It continues to improve. It continues to achieve more and more impressive numbers on benchmarks. It continues to achieve things like being able to solve mathematical puzzles that humans were unable to solve for 80 plus years. it continues to be able to write better works of even literary fiction that is winning prizes

and even discerning people are having trouble telling the difference between the human output and the AI output. So if there is a wall, it does not appear that we have hit that wall yet. The railroad comparison I think is really helpful too because it's not like when you're smeared as a dumer, which I kind of like happily will take that label. Yeah, call me a dumer. By all means, I'll take it. But when you're called a doomer, it doesn't necessarily just mean that you're saying the technology isn't transformational, that it won't have some good benefits. Everyone is smeared as a dumer if they're like, well, hey, maybe we should adjust in a way that makes more sense. Maybe we shouldn't ban all states from regulating AI.

You were called a dumer a year ago if you were opposing that. I mean, think about it. Basically, now it's a consensus position that that was insane and was an industry handout, which is why ultimately it got defeated. But at the time, that was a real claim coming from people in the industry was that you are a doomer if you don't want this. It was like a Ted Cruz provision in the big, beautiful bill. And think of just a year's time how the Overton window has shifted on that debate. It's basically a consensus position now that it would be insane to ban states

from their own AI regulation for good reason. And so anyway, all that is to say is there's a process of implementing things that you can learn from history, even if we accept that this is inevitability. And then the, I think, kind of ridiculous question of whether or not we're beating China, which nobody can define, literally nobody can define what it means to beat China in AI. This is kind of a meaningless thing to say. You're going to talk about this later in the show. And we actually can put E4 up on the screen.

This is a piece from Axios. China's AI advances collide with U.S. safety debate. One of the biggest unknowns in AI security is also one of the most consequential axios rights. China's progress toward frontier. year AI models, a new Chinese open source model, GLM 5.2, rocked the internet this weekend with its ability to match the agenic capabilities of models like Anthropics, Opus 4.8, garnering praise from Silicon Valley elites and raising questions about just how quickly China will close the gap. And this comes, Axios points out, as the Trump admin is still debating the best way to release

Fable 5 and Mythos 5 models from Anthropic over safety and national security concerns. And again, it just gets back to Crystal. Nobody is necessary, well, some people probably would say, block all of the, the models, moratorium, something like that. It's not what most people are saying. Most people are saying you can't destroy society for this abstract goal of beating China. Like literally whatever that means. And whatever you could possibly do to even prevent it at this point. Yeah. Well, and this is the talking point that you hear from the biggest AI hyperscale boosters that everything is justified because of China. Right. And it's always left, this threat has always left,

very ambiguous. Right. Because, you know, it's meant to be. It's meant to just be scary. Oh, my God. You know, Kevin Leary, I'm going to talk about it in a minute, was saying, like, they're going to be telling your kids what to eat for breakfast. I'm like, I don't think they actually care what my kids eat for breakfast.

I see no evidence of that in any case. But I will say on the economic front, I think China poses quite a threat to anthropic and open AI and to all of the American, to grok, to all of the American, you know, know, frontier AI models. And we can put, you know, in E4, they talk about the fact that you have a new Chinese release that is matching the agenic capabilities of the foremost American AI models. So this new Chinese open source model, JLM 5.2, rocked the Internet this weekend with its ability to match the agendasic capabilities, models like Anthropics Opus 4.8, garnering praise from Silicon

Valley elites and raising questions about just how quickly China will close the gap. We showed you before on this show a chart of companies that use AI in their businesses, startups in particular, they overwhelmingly use Chinese models, not because they're maybe the best of the best, although they are pretty darn close. And even David's Ax admits that they're probably six months behind, maybe the leading models here. So that is a tiny difference at this point. But because they are way cheaper and they're open source. So they're completely accessible.

and they are vastly cheaper to build and then also to run. So when you have that kind of an advantage in terms of the economics, how is anthropic, how are open AI going to compete with that? That seems increasingly like the most likely, in my layman's view, the most likely way the bubble is going to pop is going to be from this realization of like, oh, most companies don't need the very, very, very best of the best AI, They can settle for the one that is a few months for now behind, but is way cheaper than the frontier models. And so that, you know, really changes your multi-trillion dollar valuations or whatever these companies are garnering.

That really puts a major dent in those to be, to be, I guess, kind. I mentioned this on a show a couple of weeks ago, but I was asking Senator Rick Scott, Republican of Florida about this during like a pen and pad conversation recently. and like about that question of whether we find ourselves in a trap. And he didn't seem to really want to give an explicit answer to that, but he was basically saying that some of these investments are, like what I read into it is some of these investments are absolutely ridiculous. They're wildly overvalid. He was talking about SpaceX, for example.

And he was like, look at the cash flow versus the, that's a Republican senator. A Republican senator saying that, like a Trump-friendly Republican senator about the administration's I asked specifically about Trump bear hugging the AI industry. And I think that's probably why I didn't get a more direct answer. But that to me was actually very frightening to say this is the administration you're friendly to bear hugging the AI industry.

And then to have some people be like, yeah, these valuations are pretty, like they look really sugary. Yeah. Well, and so that's on the economic bubble front. let's put E5 up on the screen. So even the Trump administration, which is very famously no holds barred off to the races, anything goes in terms of AI development, is getting a little nervous about where these models are at this point and what the potential impact could be. So we covered before their limitation of Anthropics, latest model, mythos, and Fable, which was like the version that was supposed to be safe and have the guardrails put on. They're now also limiting the release of Open AIs latest model, at least for now, GPT 5.6, only in a limited preview to a small group of partners. The government themselves is personally picking and choosing who gets access to this latest model. This person opines is a de facto licensing regime. This is happening. So in terms of the capabilities, the Trump administration is getting nervous. We also have an update on the anthropic front. We can put E6 up. on the screen. They have struck a deal with Anthropic grants the company permission to release

its Mythos 5 model to a group of about 100 companies and federal agencies. So again, similar dynamic with the government stepping in and saying, okay, we will approve who gets access to this. Senior Anthropic staffers, Kobe's E letter writes to flew to D.C. to meet with members of the Trump admin, Anthropics said earlier this month at disabled access to Fable 5 and Mythos 5 to comply with an export control directive. Trump admin and Anthropic have been a two-week-long standoff over its latest model. Steel will have industry-wide implications. So, you know, look, to be fair, to this administration, when they slapped this onto Anthropic, it looks very political because they've been in these fights, especially at the Department of War,

with Anthropic. Now that they're doing the same thing to Open AI, I think you have to say, like, okay, well, they are genuinely concerned about the safety considerations here of these bleeding-edge models. Yeah, as they should be. And it did, you're right. It did the, Pentagon thing, reporting from inside of the Pentagon made it sound really political. But even if it was political, at the time, I was thinking, actually, this is not that easy or clear cut of a decision on their behalf. Like there's a, it almost gets into the question of have we seen conservatives. And we have seen a couple of candidates. Flirt with the Bernie Sanders idea of data center moratoriums and starting to like really crack down and have a more concerted industrial policy on all of this, which again, gets you smeared and stigmatized. as a doomer in politics and in Silicon Valley. But it's not the easiest, like, even if you are a pro-accelerationist type person, an EAC person, when you're looking internally at the security questions from the vantage point of the Pentagon, those questions get really complicated for obvious reasons. Yeah, that's absolutely right. All right. Well, let's talk about this idea that

China is behind any opposition to what's going on. If you see an American who believes, is that maybe we should slow down the data center construction, maybe we should have a Democratic check on this AI development. You need to ask them who is paying them, according to Kevin O'Leary. An I-Heart Radio experience. You end up with weekend gold tickets to Lassau Montreal. Thomas Rhett. Mumford and Sons. Well, here's my pride and here's my shame. John Party. Old Dominion, Carly Pierce, and more. And the prize gets even sweeter. With flights from Porter Airlines, three nights at Residence. in downtown Montreal and $1,000 cash.

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I'm also in the iHeart radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcast. Hey, I'm Hoda Kotby, host of the podcast, Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby. Okay, if you know me, you know this. I'm always searching for inspiration, for support, and useful tools to help maximize joy. So this podcast lets us uncover all of that together. We're going to have these meaningful conversations with the world's most fascinating people, Like when actress Olivia Munn shared how she overcame fierce health challenges that she never saw coming. I've gone through breast cancer and then helped my mother through breast cancer, and that was more difficult.

There's a lot of people who understand postpartner depression. I was not prepared for postpartum anxiety. Olympic champ Sean Johnson revealed why she had no choice but to be a gymnast. There was something about gymnastics that was intoxicating to me. It's given me a belief that we all have one of those treasures inside of us. We just have to find it. Listen to Joy 101 with Hoda Kotby on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Kevin O'Leary is Eating Crow after wildly accusing activists opposing his hyperscale Utah-based data center of being backed by the oh-so-scarry Chinese.

In a number of media appearances on Fox News and also with Tucker Carlson, Kevin O'Leary claimed his data guys, they had dug into the social media opposition to his big Utah data center, and they uncovered. smoking gun, definitive proof that this opposition was being funded by the scary Chinese Communist Party. He could not possibly conceive of Americans organically opposing his energy price spiking, water-sucking, noise-polluting data center. Such sentiments must have been invented by China or maybe even possibly Cuba, but definitely not Republican voters in rural Utah. One of the groups that he accused, Elevate Strategies, had a lot of fun with these baseless accusations.

Elevates strategies also a cell operating inside of Utah. Gabby Finlayson. Gabby, what are you doing? And why, who's paying you? Well, hi, hello. It's me, Gabby Finlayson. What am I doing? Apparently, we've reached the part of the Stratos Data Center journey where Kevin

O'Leary goes on national Fox News to accuse us of being a cells for the Chinese Communist Party. Yeah, because at the end of the day, who would want us to stop building our electrical grid? Which adversary would want that? There's only one. It's China. So what I think is happening, and I got my guys to go a deep dig into the IP addresses. And here's what we found out. This is fascinating. We found two cells inside of Utah. Elevate strategies. Gabby Finlinson. Gabby, what are you doing? And who's paying you? So what I'm doing right now is after getting this data. I'm calling out Gabby operating in Utah. So hi, Kevin. We are elevate strategies. This is Utah. You might not know it because you're from Canada.

This is where we live. Before we get to do anything too serious, this is the very scary, very, very, intimidating man that is threatening us. We are not taking the criticism of anyone who is wearing flip-flops and a suit on national television. You know, it's not every day you get called out by first and last name on Fox News by a Canadian billionaire trying to ruin my state. Well, Kevin has, in a sense, won the war. It looks like his data center is going in after the Box Elder County Commission voted three to zero to clear the local regulatory hurdles. But at the very least, these ladies and the others Kevin baselessly smeared, are getting a little bit of satisfaction this week as he had to fully retract his claims and Fox News had to issue multiple

on-air corrections. Kevin O'Leary appeared as a guest on this program back on May 11th and discussed the ongoing controversy surrounding his planned data center project in Utah. Now, he made certain claims relating to the opponents of that project. Mr. O'Leary has now corrected the record and explained that he has no evidence that the Alliance for a Better Utah elevate strategies Josh Cantor, Taylor Knuth or Gabriel Finlayson are funded by China or the Chinese Communist Party. Fox News Media is likewise aware of no evidence that they are funded by or acting at the direction of or in coordination with Chinese interests in opposing Kevin O'Leary's project. Fox News Media apologizes for the error.

We'll be right back. That feeling when the lawyer call hits. But this Kevin O'Leary backed data center is leaving its mark not only on Fox News programming, but on the entire political landscape of Utah. In a series of shocking upsets, two of those box elder county commissioners who okayed the data center over the fierce objections of their constituents have now been tossed from office.

The third one was not on the ballot. One of those losing incumbents told the Salt Lake Tribune, quote, do I think that the data center vote cost me the election? Yes, I do. Would I do anything different? I would not vote differently, but I would push back against the state and make them come out publicly,

and tell everybody why they're forcing it down our throat. So apparently, even the guys who voted this thing through in the county commission are not feeling too enthusiastic about the project at this point. The real political earthquake for the state, though, came from the loss of the president of the state Senate. Guy by the name of Jay Stewart Adams was tossed down in favor of a political newcomer, largely over his role in pushing the so-called Stratos Data Center. Adams was one of the longest-serving politicians in the state and also one of the most

powerful. He became the focus of anti-Data Center, Iyer, for his role as chairman of a state commission that greenlit that installation to begin with. Now, sometimes it's easy to project your national political lens onto a local race and miss some other local dynamics that played a larger role, but that does not appear to be the case here. Adams' chief opponent, a former university lawyer that they attempted to brand as a DEI lawyer, she was very explicit that much of the energy for her campaign came from this data center opposition. Here's how local news framed the focus of one of their candidate forums. The Stratos Data Center in Boxelder County is dominating a high-profile Utah Senate race.

Senate President Stuart Adams is being challenged by fellow Republicans Braden Hess and Stephanie Hollist. All of them asked at this forum about their vision for the state's water policy. I might start by not proposing the largest data center in the country. Hollisd repeatedly criticized the data center, being pushed by. celebrity businessman Kevin O'Leary. Adams has helped move the project along as chair of the state's military installation development authority, or MIDA. The people spoke, we said we need clarity. So I push back. Adams recently softened his public support of the project, pushing the developer to reduce its size and make other changes. Tried to listen. I think we're getting, we're actually got a better

project because of that. Hess told this crowd the government shouldn't treat data centers differently than any other business. As long as they are not harming society and our resources in measurable ways, I think we should allow them to go forward. But to this audience, the data center is a non-starter. When you talk about a project that's going to sap tax dollars away from residents, that's going to take water, that's going to endanger our way of life, because it's all a red flag.

all feels pretty dangerous for where we're at right now. It is no accident that the one candidate you heard there who was clear in her opposition to this data center won the day. And I will remind you, this is a Republican primary in Utah. This is also not an isolated political phenomenon either. NBC News recently spoke with a diehard Trump voter set to vote Tala Rico over Paxton in Texas solely over her disgust at data centers. Quarter mile away, Cheryl Shaden says the noise is as loud. as ever. It's like living on the edge of Niagara Falls or you're on a runway next to a jet that's taking off, but this jet doesn't take off. Morning, noon, night, she even hears it in her bedroom,

and it's changed everything about how she lives her life, including her politics. Red or blue, if you vote against data centers, we vote for you. A lifelong conservative, she's so angry, she refuses to vote for Trump-backed Attorney General Ken Paxton, who clinched the GOP nomination for Senate Tuesday. Instead, she's all. in for James Tala Rico, a Democrat seeking to flip a seat controlled by Republicans since 1993. You're willing at this point to forego basically every conservative issue and let the Senate fall into the hands of Democrats if that's what it takes to kill data centers. Yep. My entire community is going to break rank. Everybody. All of us. We've had enough. Breaking rank and coming together. My entire community is going to break rank.

rank. Not just there in Tennessee, HBCU Fisk University. They are facing massive backlash over a plan they announced to build a data center right on the campus. Also in Tennessee, another planned data center near the Nashville Zoo has led to a political freakout among elected Democrats and Republicans, some of who have come together to oppose that build in hopes of avoiding the political fate of their Utah compatrients here, presumably. The more Americans learn about the immediate impact of data centers on communities and the more they learn about the AI. that the data centers are meant to support, the more adamant they grow in their opposition. Bipartisan data center, NIMBY is our first line of defense against the AI-fueled tech

oligarch global takeover. And that really is how I see it, Emily, that like the data centers are this very important locus of organizing around opposition to the broader AI project. And it truly is bipartisan. You know, I think polls show Democrats are a little bit more imposed and independence than Republicans, but you can see clearly by what's going on in Utah. There's a lot of Republican opposition as well. And this really is a coalition that is up for grabs at this point. It's fascinating because in the last couple of weeks, I've started to see people, a Theo Von clip, for example, went viral of him being like you probably saw this. Like, what do we need all these data centers for? And some of the accelerationist people were quote

tweeting him and being like, bro, how do you think people are watching your podcast? Like, we use so much data because of, I mean, first of all, a lot of that is coming from just AI, not just podcasting for the record. But secondly, very convenient thing for us to say. It is also true. It is true. But I think this is this tension is actually really important because they think this is a dunk and an own on the average person who is like, well, what do we need all of this for? But the tension is real because a lot of people are now looking around and being like, well, we have adopted to these lifestyles that maybe we actually don't even agree with. Right? Like, there's a fundamental question happening, which is, why do we need to use this much internet? Like, do we? Do we? And now you're going to, like, if it's a choice between, if you're going to put this choice between me living next to this plane that never takes off, which was a beautiful quote from that woman. Yeah. And cutting back on large language model usage, which if you're like 65 years old, maybe you're not even using to begin with, that choice is going to be actually increasingly clear.

And the people like Kevin O'Leary, who I think, I mean, if it's cynical, it was really pathetic. But I think he sincerely had people telling him this is all China. It's all China. And he really thought it because- Shows you how on a touch. Exactly. Because if you go back to his Tucker Carlson interview, he was hyping up this research that he found about all of it coming from China. And we covered here, Open AI put out a survey that was covered by the industry as like damning proof of Chinese ops whipping up opposition to data centers.

And it actually came out and said in the like fine print towards the like second page or something of the study Well, you know, this didn't have much effect the posts that the Chinese operatives were planting on social media were barely seen by many people and it's like they pulled the headline from that and they were like China is whipping up opposition It's like no, no China might be trying to whip up opposition, but it's not really being effective. It reminds me so much of 2017 like Russia The Russia's like the memes. Yeah, it's so similar to that and it's just a way to kind of either stigmatize people into suppressing their voices or lose the argument completely because you're just making them so much angrier about what you're doing to their communities by not meeting them where they are and hearing their honest and sincere concerns with this, some of which aren't even what you think. You think, oh, this is a big slam dunk own. You don't

want your data. You don't want more data? What are you talking about? We need all this data for these LLMs. And that's what they're not getting is that people are actually now reckoning with whether we do need to live like that? Well, the Utah State Senate president losing in this fashion should be, I hope politicians are paying attention because it should be a wake-up call. One of the most powerful politicians in the state, he faced, you know, they thought he would pull through because he had a divided opposition. You had two candidates opposing him, right? But because the opposition's data center was so strong, there were some other issues with him as well, but this genuinely was the primary complaint about him at this point. It was an

to topple him. Long time incumbent, political newcomer comes in, just kind of lip-coded in a very conservative state. They tried to tie her. I read her website, and she had this FAQ that was like, people say that you're backed by George Soros. And she's like, I'm not backed by George. People say you're a DEI lawyer. I'm not a DEI lawyer. But in any case, that was trying, how they were trying to defeat her is like, look at this DEI lib. You don't want this for Utah. Obviously, it failed because the concern over the data center was greater than the fearmongering about. about whatever her ideological leanings are. They tried to do the many people are saying.

Many people are saying, yes. Trump move. It doesn't always work. Many people are saying. All right, guys, that does it for us today. Again, go sign up for the newsletter, the free version, the premium version, whatever you want to do, breaking points.com. Thank you for the feedback. Thank you, as always, for your support.

And there will be big election results to cover tomorrow. And, of course, we have, Emily, we'll do a great job. But we are very lucky to have Ryan. It pays very close attention to all of these things. He's like the guy, yeah, for these sorts of things. I will be watching with great interest personally. Yeah, it's going to be fun. So we'll be here.

We'll see you then. Make sure you sign up for the newsletter of Breaking Points.com. Have a great day, everyone. American soccer is exploding. The knockout rounds are here. The U.S. won their group, and now every match is winner go home. I'm Tad Ramos. And I'm Tom Boger.

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