Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 6/9/25: LA Riots, Trump Sends National Guard, Bannon Says Deport Musk

Episode Date: June 9, 2025

Krystal and Saagar discuss LA riots as Trump sends National Guard, Bannon says deport Elon Musk.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Happy Monday. Is it Monday? I think it's Monday. All right, happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have for you? Indeed we do. Welcome back, sir. Thank you. We have missed you very much. Yeah. I've missed you guys too. I really have. It's been, it's been, it's been an experience. Any new parent, I was just regaling Crystal. I've been tracking all of my sleep metrics and

everything. It's been, it's been devastating, but it's fine. It's all worth it. We have a beautiful daughter at home. Thank you to my incredible wife, to the team here for covering for me, for both the in-laws. Everybody's been stepping up very much at home. So it's been an amazing experience. I'll have more to say later. I actually want to do a monologue about all my medical bills. Oh, boy. I think people will enjoy that.

Are you a Medicare for All guy yet? Not yet, but we're getting there. We're getting close. Yeah, I'll talk about it. You know, because we were prepared for one of the bills, you know, but unfortunately my daughter had to spend some time in the NICU and transfer and all that. And I will go down line by line just to show people. I think people should know what it actually costs if you have a terrible medical illness. Oh, absolutely. Everybody's fine now.

So thank you very much. Thank you to the audience for putting up with it. And Ryan, Emily, everybody in the control room, everybody on the team, done an amazing job while I was gone. And I'm doing my best over here. So if I have any bad takes, you can just blame it all on Steve. Can I get that dispensation as well? Yes, absolutely.

You should call it in. Listen, I have more sympathy now. You should use the parent card ten times more often. Well, luckily, we have a really light news day for you to just ease back in. Nothing that's contentious or difficult to parse through. Things that we always agree on. So it should be great. Obviously, we're following what's going on in L.A. We've got the very latest.

Team was up late pulling images from last night. Of course, the National Guard has been federalized. Extraordinary things going on there with regards to Trump. So we'll get into all of that. We've also got the latest in the Trump-Elon fallout. I am excited to hear from Sagar on that particular issue. I'm sure you guys are as well to hear what he is thinking about the whole bromance falling apart. We had Cash Patel on Joe Rogan while the Elon-Trump thing was going on. And Elon's out there posting that Trump is on the Epstein list and Cash Patel is being confronted

like in real time with, you know, hey, what's going on there. So that's pretty interesting. We've got the Trump administration caving on Kilmar Abrego Garcia, although there is a big catch. They are charging him. He has been indicted. So got all of those details. J.D. Vance. I went on with Theo Vaughn. A number of interesting moments, some of them amusing, some of them revealing. We'll get into that. And then we may be able to, it's still a little bit up in the air, we may be able to get to the spokesperson for that Gaza aid flotilla. All the members of that flotilla, including Greta Dunberg, have now been arrested and are being held by the IDF in an Israeli prison. So, you know, there are some wild images coming out from there as well. So

whether or not we get the spokesperson on, we will cover that and hopefully we'll be able to talk to her and get her take on all of that. Before we jump in with the latest coming out of L.A., you guys have overwhelmed us with your support. Thank you so much. We've been offering, we've gone back to offering the monthly subscription by popular demand and free monthly trial. Go to BreakingPoints.com. Put in BP free. Give us a try for a month. See if you enjoy it.

See how you feel about it. Sagar, I don't know if you're aware of this. Ryan has been threatening to do HIMSS ads if people don't sign up. HIMSS ads. Actually, I think they need some help because they've been, RFK Jr. has been attacking them. Oh, really? Wait, over what?

Well, it's too complicated. There's all this stuff about like, what is it called? Generic compounded GLP-1, like they're basically a semaclutide. Okay. Free ozempic, basically the generic semaclutide, and they're like going after companies like HIMS and Noom and all these other places. So anyway, we can talk about that later.

It's actually an interesting story. Okay. One of the ones I won't stress. So save Ryan from having to do HIMSS ads, guys. HIMSS ads and finasteride. Is that what it's called? I think it is. The balding medicine.

But anyway, thank you. Actually, it has been incredible. I was checking back in. I was looking at the numbers. The response has been overwhelming. And it is really, really incredible to see some of the demands for that. So you can go ahead and sign up. You can breakinpoints.com. You can use the promo code. We appreciate you. But

let's get to Los Angeles, shall we? Yeah. So there's a lot to get into here. So bear with us as we go through what has happened and gotten us to this place. Let's go ahead and put these images of unrest. These are all coming from last night out of L.A. County. Trump has, for the first time since 1992, federalized the National Guard. And this is the first time it's been federalized over the objections of the state governor for the first time since 1965. We're going to talk a lot about the legal pretext here. A lot of legal analysts say that this is illegal. Certainly Gavin Newsom is saying that this is illegal. But you can see here, this is just from last night. There were a bunch of Waymos that apparently they were like calling the Waymos to the protest and then setting the Waymos on fire.

You know, the Mexican flags flying here, that has become something that a lot of the right have certainly seized upon. So wild images that you can see in the streets as protesters are clashing with. This is largely LAPD, even though the National Guard was brought in yesterday. My understanding is the National Guard mostly stayed around the federal building. Here, obviously, you can see these Waymos set on fire as well. And so while we continue to roll these images, I can just explain a little bit of how we got to this place. So the Trump administration, obviously, they ran on mass deportation. They have really upped the ante in recent days. Stephen Miller apparently went into

an ICE meeting, was berating everybody for focusing on criminals and said, no, you need to go into the workplaces, go into the Home Depots. And that is exactly what ICE has been doing. So the initial protests kicked off at two locations in and near L.A. You had a garment manufacturer where there was an ongoing ICE raid, and you had a Home Depot where ICE was massing, and there was an expectation that there would be a raid. You know, you have migrants who hang out there in the parking lot looking for work, et cetera. So protests begin, and there's a pretty

aggressive response from the LAPD. And you have large tensions in the community and you have people that begin to throw rocks back and it just escalates from here. Just watch this one clip. This is a reporter for Australian news outlet and crazy footage here. You see one of the cops turn directly to her and fire a rubber bullet that hits her directly. So this is, in any case, some of what's going on. So after the first night of protests, Trump decides that he is going to send in the National Guard. And the first indication we got of this actually saga was Tom Homan went on before any sort of an announcement had been made and indicated that this was going to happen. And then we, in fact, got this memo from Trump saying exactly what he was going to do.

We can put a two up on the screen here, guys. This is the memo from the White House, which calls for bringing in the National Guard. He says, in recent days, violent mobs have attacked ICE officers and federal law enforcement agents carrying out basic deportation operations in LA, California. These operations are essential to halting and reversing the invasion of illegal criminals in the U.S. In the wake of this violence, California's feckless Democrat leaders have completely abdicated their responsibility to protect their citizens. That's why President Trump has signed a presidential memorandum deploying 2,000 National Guardsmen to address the lawlessness that has been allowed to fester. The Trump administration has a zero-tolerance policy for criminal behavior and violence, especially when that violence is aimed at law enforcement officers trying to do their

jobs. These criminals will be arrested, swiftly brought to justice. Commander-in-Chief will ensure the laws of the U.S. are executed fully and completely, signed by Caroline Leavitt, White House press secretary. Now, notably, he did not actually invoke the Insurrection Act, which would give sort of broader legal justification for using the military against civilians. Goes without saying, these are extraordinary and unusual actions that are being taken. But instead of invoking the Insurrection Act, he used something called Title X authority. Now, the plain face reading of this appears to require that the governor of the state request or at least consent to the federalizing of National Guard troops under Title 10. Again, the last time that National Guard troops were federalized with the

consent of the California governor was in 1992 to deal with the LA riots. You had dozens of people who were killed, a billion dollars in property damage. That's the last time that National Guard troops were federalized. The last time that they were federalized over the objection of the state leadership was 1965. This was under LBJ to deal with an incalcitrant southern state that did not want to desegregate. So that's the level that we're talking about here in terms of actions. Trump got asked what he planned and whether he was going to invoke the Insurrection Act. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of what he had to our country. We're not going to let our country be torn apart

like it was under Biden and his auto pen. What is the bar for sending Marines to the Philippines? The bar is what I think it is. I mean, if we see danger to our country and to our citizens, then we'll be very, very strong in terms of law and order. It's about law and order. Secretary Akers is going to be on the table, sir. Secretary Hagseth.

We're going to see what we need. We'll send whatever we need to make sure there's law and order. And so you hear him there. Troops everywhere. And we'll see with regard to the Interaction Act and the Marines. This was the other piece. We can put A7. Go ahead and skip ahead to A7.

And we'll just lay this piece out. And then I'll get Sager's reaction here. Pete Hegseth floating that they could get the Marines involved. He says the violent mob assaults on ICE and federal law enforcement are designed to prevent the removal of criminal illegal aliens from our soil under President Trump. Violence and destruction will not be tolerated. The Department of Defense is mobilizing the National Guard immediately. And if violence continues, active duty Marines at Camp Pendleton will also be mobilized. They are on high alert. Yesterday evening, CNN reported that there were a number of Marines indeed who were prepared to deploy. Let's go ahead, guys, and play A7B. I also want to ask you about some breaking news

that we're just getting in. This is brand new into our newsroom that the U.S. Northern Command is saying that approximately 500 active duty Marines are, quote, prepared to deploy. In their words, as unrest in Los Angeles continues. This is after, of course, the Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth had mentioned this. Is that necessary at this point? No, I'm going to be, I mean, not operationally. It's not necessary. There may be other reasons for it. All right. So there you go. So we've also we'll get into in a moment some of the legal analysis, the Democratic response. But just pause for a second and give you a chance to react. Sure. Actually, you know, I don't usually do this, but The New York Times actually had some pretty good analysis of it this morning. They said Trump jumps at a chance for confrontation in California immigration. The situation has all the elements that the president seeks to show down with the top political rival in a deep blue state over an issue court to the agenda. And I think that's probably the best way to look at it. I mean, one of the things that you laid out there

was that past reporting about Stephen Miller really pressuring workplace raids as opposed to criminal raids. That was something that immediately followed the reporting in Los Angeles. Los Angeles and New York City are the two of the top targets. From ICE, I believe Los Angeles in particular, Sanctuary City, one that has long kind of, you know, held itself up against immigration enforcement. That leads to some of the protests there. What is it, Paramount, I believe, California. Yeah. So then you have the initial kickoff. I mean, my own personal, like, analysis of it is, like, it doesn't—didn't seem particularly, like, necessary to send the National Guard in. Because, look, I don't think this is like BLM.

BLM was—first of all, this was, like, a lot more protest, a lot more property damage, a lot more, like, violence. But even beyond that, there was genuine, like, reluctance to use police forces in a lot of these blue cities. LAPD looks pretty ready to rock and roll, you know, from what I've been able to see. So I was like, well, yeah, they seem to be okay. But I mean, a lot of it really is just downstream of BLM redux for a lot of people on the American right. And also, I mean, we have to acknowledge like Trump is in a relatively precarious political position. And this is an issue which we'll talk about tomorrow, some of his polling and all that. Immigration remains one of his number one core areas. You've got some of those images that you were talking about of burning cars, Mexican flags. I mean, I don't think it takes a political genius to say this is dramatically

unpopular. I think in general, what America seems to be sensitive to is who is the more chaotic element. And we talked about this before. I think up until this point, you could very easily assume that the Trump administration was the more chaotic actor in immigration. We had the Kilmar-Abrego-Garcia case, which we're going to talk about a little bit later in the show. We had El Salvador, some of these extraordinary actions and all of this. But in particular, what's happened here is when you see a flip and it goes into rioting, into violence, and then you see that law enforcement can seem to have like a moral upper hand, it becomes a lot more dicey. And so that is something that the Trump administration, part of the reason I think that they wanted an image like this is they really

are getting, I think, a lot of what they want. They're getting the Mexican flags. They're getting the burning in the streets. Regardless of whether you of whether you think, you know, Newsom and Karen Bass are being feckless or not, a lot of people in the upper Midwest and some of the swing state areas, they're going to think that. I mean, I also would be remiss if I didn't say, I know a lot of people in the city of Los Angeles and they did, a lot of them were texting me being like, hey man, if you are covering this, like, please just know that 99.9% of us are living our lives. And like, downtown LA is a place that like none of us even go. So just so you're all aware. And I always think that's important to say. Like, the entire city is not on fire or anything like that. This is not Rodney King.

In fact, May Day parades are always, there's always Mexican flags flying in LA. Well, also, a lot of these people are so concerned about foreign flags now. Okay, sure. Yeah. I mean, listen, should an Israeli flag fly in America? No. Should an Israeli flag fly in America? In my opinion, no. Should a Mexican flag fly in this? Yeah, I think it's a little... I mean, I will say, look, I don't know really why these people are like, they're like addicted to doing some of the most unpopular things possible. I mean, if you saw, you know, if you saw some of the initial Floydian response, like in the early days of Floyd, I'm talking about before the Minneapolis police precinct and all that was burned down and people were peacefully marching the street. That's very difficult, you know, for people to be able to mobilize against. And this is now entering a situation which I think broadly,

there is a consensus. They're like, this is, I think, pretty strong footing for Donald Trump. We will see, of course. Things are very different, though, from that time previously. But by and large, I mean, we should make some of it because it is extraordinary, the threat of the ability to have active duty soldiers, the National Guard's 2,000, but I don't want to overplay it because there's a lot of people, I'm like, oh my God, this is BLM. I'm like, no, this is not even remotely. They're saying this is a relatively, you know, thousands of people, yes, but we're not talking about millions. We're not talking about contagion, you know, spread across the entire city or any of that. And so I do think it's important to contextualize it as well.

Like Los Angeles itself, it's mostly fine. I think I agree with most of that. What I will say is, I mean, to me, number one, like Trump was looking for a pretext to have this sort of militarized response for basically his entire ministry. I mean, on day one, he signed an executive order that we covered here of like, hey, will you study whether I should invoke the Insurrection Act? So he's been looking for a pretext. We know last time around, he wanted to shoot protesters in the knees. And I think it was Esper who was like, you can't do that. Esper and people like that are no longer around him. And to your point, I think what the right and certainly Trump and his people took from the first administration was we didn't go far enough. Like we weren't wild enough, whether it's with the, you know, the like crackdown on dissent or the aggressive response to protests or the the even the economic regime with the tariffs, all of these sorts of things. They took all the guard

rails off. And so there is not going to be a Mark Esper in place now to say, hey, we shouldn't, you can't federalize the National Guard over the objections of the governor of California. That's not something that is legal or permissible. And, you know, to turn troops on American citizens, like that is an extraordinary thing. So, you know, to me, the big picture is this is an authoritarian guy. I think you're right to say that I think he feels a little politically tenuous now, whereas support even on his best issue, which is immigration, has slipped significantly. It's still where he does the best, but it slipped significantly. And they were looking for a reason to take exactly this sort of action. I also will say, I mean, when you have this kind of chaos in the streets, it is exactly the sort of thing that somebody with these authoritarian tendencies

will seize on to, hey, let's expand that Palantir database. Hey, let's normalize having the military in the streets for domestic law enforcement. And so, you know, for me, that's the most important point. But I also agree with you. Like the Mexican flag on the burning Waymo is such a terrible image optically that I'm like, are these actually feds? You have to ask the question because it plays into their hands so perfectly. It is exactly the kind of images that they want to put out to the public. How the public perceives all of this, I'm not going to speculate because I do think that there is a sense that Trump is stoking this, that he wants this, that, you know, L.A. was doing fine, actually violent crime. These sorts of things were like way down year over year, was doing OK.

There was not rioting in the streets before he starts to take extraordinary actions, both with ICE and then bringing in the National Guard. How the public will sort through all of this, I don't know. But to me, those are the most significant pieces. And especially when you're floating things like I'm going to bring in the Marines. I mean, that is that is so unhinged and crazy that it's hard to wrap your head around. That they haven't done it yet. Like I said, whoever seems like the crazier party is going to get a lot of the blame. And I think the Marines, I mean, that is a genuinely extraordinary step. 2000, look, I mean, we can contextualize. It is pretty insane that, you know, for the first

time since 1965, we're talking about Selma, Alabama, that a National Guard has been mobilized without a governor's action. Yeah. It's also 2,000 troops. These are also people not out in the streets. These are people who are around like VA facilities and federal buildings. In fact, from what I've seen, I believe they've only fired like tear gas outside of that national guard, sorry, the federal building. It's mostly LAPD. Almost all of the really chaotic images people are watching, that's LAPD. This is like a support mission. This is LAPD.

And I believe in some cases the Department of Homeland Security. So we'll see how things progress today. I mean I'm curious actually to see how the protesters on the ground in Los Angeles and perhaps even leaders of these protest movements and all of this are contextualizing it because from my perspective, it has been kind of interesting to watch how, I mean, I think last time around, like all the memes around mostly peaceful and riot is the voice of the unheard and all that, there was like a justification of genuine violence and looting from the very top of the democratic establishment and the media.

This time around, that's just not the case. I mean, you know, you're criticizing the Mexican flag. Most people are. Most people are like, what are you guys doing here? And so in a certain sense- I mean, I don't have a morality issue with it, but I think it's optically idiotic. But I'm saying last time around,

they wouldn't even admit that. Last time around, they're like, they wouldn't even admit. They're like, hey, you know, maybe you shouldn't loot a Marc Jacobs store, right? They there here, there on Twitter, but you know, a lot of the ACAB energy and all that, it just, it just seems very online and not as enshrined in the mainstream. There's also a big difference from 2020 where, look, I mean, everyone can acknowledge there's been a lot of scientific research on this. Part of the reason the protests were as big as they were is a lot of people were locked in their houses and they're staring at a screen. There was like a mass psychosis that took over the entire country.

We could debate, you know, all of that. I've done plenty here. But that's not the case right now. It's, what is it, June something? You know, it's summer. You know, people are living their lives like broadly. And while people are paying attention to the news, I think people are still upset about the tariffs. That's one of the things I think really, I don't think we have fully internalized

how much that tariff 45-day period actually cost Trump in terms of the confidence of the American people and a lot of some of the stress and other things that were on businesses and all that, you know, just even my own personal life and being able to talk to people.

It's the number one thing I hear about the way that the tariffs disrupt. And it's not even about cost increase. It was my job did this. We were worried about this. You cost people, you know, for real. This is a little bit different. And so anyways, watching it closely, obviously, it is most an impactful story for how the Trump administration wants to deal with it.

It's also, let's be honest, it's a message to the entire country, to New York City, to Chicago, to, you know, I'm thinking of any other big blue city. It's a message to them. It's like, if you don't get this shit under control very quickly, you will have the guard federalized in your state immediately. And so in a sense, it is more of a preemptory action from what I can see. And also, like I said at the beginning, Trump is on precarious political footing. This is not a good time for him. This is probably the best possible thing that could have happened for him. When he, yes, the more that, this is what I've said before, the more his political standing slips, the more he's going to resort to increasingly authoritarian tactics. And I think this is part and parcel with that. And you have to put it in

the broader context of all of the actions that Trump has taken in office, whether it's, you know, trying to bring the media organizations to heel, whether it's the student protester crackdown, whether it's the, you know, the Palantir surveillance database, all of these actions that he has taken in order to claim control, even the tariffs. You know, tariffs are put into place under this claim that there is some sort of national emergency, something that the courts are now looking at very skeptically. But all of these things are about crushing dissent, consolidating control.

And so, yes, they are going to take any pretext that they can to further those goals. I think you're absolutely right that this is a warning to not only to states or localities, it's also a warning to protesters. We have had, and not just pro-Palestine protesters, like anyone who would protest this administration. We've had his counterterrorist go on TV and say, hey, if you don't like Tesla's now, that one may be changing now. You might be able to. It's OK to not like Tesla's now. I was joking that those I bought this before Elon went crazy things. I was like surging in Alabama. Right.

I would love to see Amazon sales data on who's buying those. Who's buying those now. Yeah, Trump may be sticking one of those Tesla outside the White House. But in any case, so you have the counterterrorists who floated, you know, if you're a domestic terrorist, if you heard of Tesla, you're a domestic terrorist. If you participate in like the hands-off protests, you're a domestic terrorist. Certainly if you are pro-Palestine. And so they will use anything they can to crush dissent and claim power.

The fact that it's Gavin Newsom, that only fuels the fire. There were some, you know, indications that there's been a back and forth. And I think this is part of the context and background here as well. Trump is preparing to strip a lot of federal funding from the state of California. And Gavin Newsom said something in return, basically like, hey, you should keep in mind that we are a mass net contributor to taxes. We put in way more federal taxes than we get back. And maybe we should reconsider that relationship. And it's, you know, just shortly on the heels of him making those comments that this, you know, extraordinary action is taken by Trump, which again, I just want people to think about the comparison between these protests,

which are really pretty, especially day one, you know, now we got cars burning, whatever, after the National Guard gets brought in, which I think just heightened the tension and escalated the chaos. But in any case, these are fairly run-of-the-mill protests. Like, this was nothing the LAPD, with their 7,000 or 9,000 or however many cops they have, were unable to handle. Compare that to the L.A. riots, right? Oh, yeah, that was crazy. I mean, there is no comparison here. You had 60 plus people who

were killed, who were shot dead. You had, I mean, whole neighborhoods, businesses looted a billion dollars in 1992 dollars in property damage. I mean, it was, that was a very different situation. And it's also a very different situation from 1965 when you have Southern states saying we are not going to desegregate an open defiance of the federal government. So, you know, in terms of the legal standing here, like I said before, it is noteworthy he hasn't invoked the Insurrection Act, which actually came as a surprise. Everyone sort of assumed that was what he would do because that would allow him the most expansive powers. Instead, they use this Title 10 authority, which seems to, you know, the legal justification, if you read between the lines on the, you know,

the legal analyses that I've been reading, would seem to indicate that they might, might be able to get away with this limited support role. And, you know, but even that, to do it without the governor's consent, Gavin Newsom is clearly, he has stated clearly he believes that it's illegal. And we could put A5B up on the screen here. Let's get a bit of his response. He has formally requested they rescind their unlawful deployment of troops in L.A. County, return them to my command. He says we didn't have a problem until Trump got involved. This is a serious breach of state sovereignty,

inflaming tensions while pulling resources from where they're actually needed. Rescind the order, return control to California. I think this is probably the first step before he actively files suit in order to try to force the courts to require this rescission of this order, which he calls unlawful. And many, many scholars agree is unlawful. Let's put a five up on the screen. This was his kind of initial reaction and has been the tone that he's been striking. He says the federal government is moving to take over the California National Guard and deploy 2000,000 soldiers. That move is purposefully inflammatory, will only escalate tensions. L.A. authorities are able to access

law enforcement assistance at a moment's notice. We're in close coordination. The Guard has been admirably serving L.A. throughout recovery. This is the wrong mission and will erode public trust. And Tom Hellman has been threatening Gavin Newsom and Karen Bass, who's the mayor of L.A., with potential arrests. So Gavin got asked about this yesterday. And here's what he had to say. He's been here 10 years. The fear, the horror, the hell is this guy? Come after me. Arrest me.

Let's just get it over with. Tough guy. You know, I don't give a damn. But I care about my community. I care about this community. The hell are they doing? These guys need to grow up. They need to stop. And we need to push back. And I'm sorry to be so clear, but that kind of bloviating is exhausting. So, Tom, arrest me. Let's go. So he says, arrest me. Let's go. So, you know, he's certainly coming out very strongly in terms of his rhetoric and pushing back against this. And like I said, I think the letter, that letter is significant because it probably is step one before he officially files suit to try to get a court to strike this down.

Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, I think a lot of it is, it's interesting even also in terms of the way that they're responding because their response, like I said, I mean, this is part of where I do see Democratic leaders acting very differently. They're like, hey, we have all the resources to handle this. Right. They're like, we are ready to roll. And again, I mean, look, you can call Karen Bass woke and all. I mean, I think she has actually been a terrible mayor when we're talking about the L.A. fires. But in this case, I mean, I have not yet seen evidence or anything like that that she's like telling the LAPD to stand down or not to enforce the law. I mean, we don't want to downplay it.

You shouldn't be people throwing rocks at federal agents. It's like not normal. It's not good. And so that's something that is going to be happening. It's going to, of course, invite a response. But, yeah, broadly, this is a clash of big political forces. And, you know, we should contextualize it certainly in terms of the situation,

which people are hyper-focused on that, and then also in the broader picture, like you're saying, about what this really means, what with the Trump administration and its view of power. I do think it's very interesting they didn't do the Insurrection Act. And I mean, there's a couple of things that we can look to and say that the Trump administration,

within their view, is trying to appear more reasonable, like this time around. This may sound crazy to somebody like, but think about it. I mean, look, National Guard is not National 2000 National Guard is not the Insurrection Act. It's not, you know, we're threatening all of these things. We got later on the show, Kilmar Brigo Garcia is back in the United States. I mean, I don't think anybody would have said that was going to happen 20 days. Whenever I went on leave, what did we all say? It's never going to happen. They, I think, don't we have tape of Kirstie? She's like, it's not going to, they buckled, right? Like eventually they did buckle to the court. They've got, they were taking L after L right now at the Supreme court, you know, with the, or in the

court system as well. Like they have got, they're on the back foot a little bit and they're not stupid either to see also, which we're about to talk about, with Doge and with Elon, that costs them a lot of political capital. Between Doge and tariffs, they have serious problems. Now, I'm not going to downplay what the future and all of this will look like. But in a sense, I can see that there is a calibration within their worldview for what is happening right now. And while, yes, there's testing of the waters and things, I think that people are also, there are people in the White House and all of that, there's a tug of war between the Stephen Miller and then also between people who are looking at the future for the midterms. Let's not forget, we don't have it

on the show. This tax bill is about to pass, no matter what you think of the tax bill. I mean, anytime you give, what is it, permanent tax cuts to the wealthiest people in the United States, because effectively what they're doing is enshrining the current law into law, as well as a bunch of other stuff. That never polls very popularly, and that's a huge benefit. We still don't know if Medicaid or whatever is on the table, but there's a precarious political landscape in the next one to two years that I see for them. Let me just put this last piece up on the screen. This is A8B Trump's, I think this is his most recent truth. I don't know. I'm not sure, but one of his more recent truths. This is his latest

thoughts. He says, a once great American city, LA, has been invaded and occupied by illegal aliens and criminals. Now, violent insurrectionist mobs are swimming and attacking our federal agents to try and stop our deportation operations. These lawless rights only strengthen our resolve. I'm directing Secretary of Homeland Security Kristi Noem, Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth, Attorney General Pam Bondi, in coordination with all other relevant departments and agencies to take all such action necessary to liberate Los Angeles from the migrant invasion and put an end to these migrant riots. That's another thing is they're trying to project like the people participating here are all immigrants are undocumented. And there's just no proof. I mean, I think vast majority are very likely American citizens in any case. You think so?

I actually don't. I mean, L.A. is... I mean, L.A. has a massive immigrant population, but also a massive, you know, like people who were immigrants and are now citizens population. There's no way to know. Yeah. I mean, that's what... It's also, what, the second largest city in the United States of America, I think.

I mean, there's... I mean, it probably does have a very large legal population, like, let's be honest. Sure. I don't know. Again, we have no sense of that. I think it's unlikely, frankly, because most people who are undocumented are very leery of doing much of anything right now because they're afraid of being picked up and deported. So the risk is much higher. Listen, we have no numbers, but that's what they want to

project is that this is all like undocumented immigrants and it's an invasion of LA. And that's why they're seizing on the display of the Mexican flag. I mean, they're not seizing on it. It's a Mexican flag. There's Mexican flags all over it. It's everywhere. It's a problem. But there are also American flags, but you don't see those being highlighted. I don't see very many of them. I was looking for some images. No, I don't know. Come on. That's what they want to put forward.

Come on. We got plenty of images here. I didn't see any Mexican flags. To be honest with you, I actually watched a clip that Elon retweeted that showcased a bunch of American flags. I see a lot more Mexican flags. No people are illegal, un-stolen. This is typical leftist fare. It's fine. I'm not going to sit here and, like, cat turd it up or whatever. But, like, let's be honest about who we're dealing with here.

Sure. But like I was saying, I think there's also an element of this where Trump's rhetoric on immigration this time, although there was, you know, some talk about like, oh, they're taking your house and you're taking your jobs. It was more about they're emptying the insane asylums and these are all criminals and we're going to go after these criminals and deport them. And there simply aren't that many undocumented immigrants who are criminals. And so I think part of this as well is, since you have this increasing sort of realization of who is actually being targeted, who is actually being deported, and there tend to be more sympathetic figures, and people who are just like here trying to live you know, live a life and work and get a job and whatever.

This can substitute in for portraying that level of like criminality and lawlessness, I think is part of the reason why they're making this affirmative effort to project that everyone participating is an undocumented immigrant, which is like definitely not the case. So in any case, I think that's part of the narrative that they are trying to spin here as well. Oh, yeah. And to your point. And it helps.

You burn cars and you have Mexican flags. I absolutely agree that when you have, like I said before, the image of a burning Waymo with a Mexican flag is so perfect for them that I have to ask. It like seems way too on the nose. So in any case, you got to remember, too, most of the country has never been to Los Angeles. If you live in a red state, like you think San Francisco is just like riddled with shit because it's like the tenderloin district. Or you think and look, I'm not downplaying that because it is terrible. I've been there. I've seen it. It's like the Tenderloin District. Or you think, and look, I'm not downplaying that because it is terrible. I've been there.

I've seen it. It's awful. You know, or downtown LA, like seeing this, I forget exactly what it's called. I'm completely blanking on it. That area of downtown Skid Row. That is one of the worst things I've ever seen in my whole life, ever seen. I'm talking about the slums of Mumbai are comparable to Skid Row. It is horrific. So I don't want to

downplay that. There is a tendency, though, in the middle of America and others to think that that's what it all looks like. Or Chicago is all like, you know, Chirac or whatever. But Mexican flags burning in the middle, they don't know. So when you see images of, what is it, the 405 in LA being blocked up in Alabama and Michigan Michigan, in Pennsylvania and all this? I can guarantee you, you know, these things are going viral all across the country. I mean, look, we could debate forever about illegal immigration and deportation. I mean, at the end of the day, if you're here illegally, you are liable to be deported. Whether you should be or not, we can argue that all day long.

But as the law currently stands and as the law that's about to, I think, probably going to go into effect, like that's something that is going to be happening. Again, we can debate morality, etc. of all of that. But at the end of the day, you know, having people throw things at federal agents, Mexican flags, and all of that, these are sympathetic images for the Trump administration. In fact, I mean, it almost makes me question why they started with these Mahmoud Khalil's, and I'm blanking on the guy's name, the Buddhist guy. Moslem. Yeah. I mean, these are like 10 times more sympathetic figures. Like, why did they start with the pro-Palestinian movement in a certain sense?

I mean, we could probably talk forever with us, which actually there's a tie-in too because Elon is like seizing on this to kind of like smooth over some of his ruptured ties with MAGA. But in any case, I think what – I was talking to Kyle about this last night and he was saying like they were going to – like it doesn't matter whether the protests are peaceful or not peaceful or whatever. They were going to do it doesn't matter whether the protests are peaceful or not peaceful or whatever. They were going to do this sort of thing anyway. And I think there's a reasonable point to be made about that because the pro-Palestine protest. That's true. Think about the pro-Palestine protest, though. They were over. I mean, they really were sort of a model movement, including really highlighting Jewish voices at the center of it.

You know, peaceful, like the most aggressive thing they did was to take over that one building on the Columbia campus, which, you know, you can debate and dispute, but that is sort of grounded in typical, like, you know, anti-war protest movement tactics. And they were really, really disciplined. And, you know, anytime you have a movement, a large movement of people, you're going to have some people who do some things that are like, you know, some graffiti or something that you don't. But considering the number of people and the extent of locations and all of that, they were really disciplined. And there was a significant crackdown. Now, the National Guard wasn't called in, but there was a significant crackdown. And there has been an aggressive, over-the-top federal government response, right, including pulling all the,

you know, ability of Harvard to have foreign students at all and taking over Middle Eastern studies departments and arresting people like Mahmoud Khalil and arresting Mohsen Mandawi and arresting Reza Azterk for writing an op-ed and, you know, really punishing anyone who would dissent from that narrative. So in a sense, would they have called in the National Guard? Would it be exactly the same? Hard to say, but there is a top-down crackdown on dissent, regardless of how good or perfect your protest movement is. That is certainly the case. But I think what you're pointing to, what I will say for myself, is that it also matters how the public receives that protest movement. And so, you know, in the case of the pro-Palestine movement,

even though it hasn't moved our elected officials because they're genocidal, horrific maniacs, whether you're talking about Biden or you're talking about Trump, the way a public opinion has moved has been extraordinary. You know, the only old Republicans basically are now more pro-Israel than pro-Palestine. And that is a wild shift. I think another successful protest model in Trump 2.0 era has been, you mentioned, Kilmar Abrego Garcia. There were protests.

There were peaceful protests. There was, you know, a significant effort of calling and writing members of Congress. There were people showing up at these town halls to yell at them and, you know, massive upset. You had Democratic politicians respond by actually going to El Salvador, keeping the pressure on the issue. You had the courts responding as well. So you had all of these layers. And because of that, when you poll on Kilmara-Brega-Garcia specifically, it is one of Trump's worst polling issues. People are disgusted with how he handled it.

And the more that was in the news, the more that the pressure was kept on and that was kept in the news, the more that Trump's overall approval on immigration fell. And so now, actually, his approval rating on immigration has recovered a bit. His overall approval has recovered a bit as that has has become, you know, more backburner in terms of the news and hasn't been in everyone's face. So there are models of, you know, movements that have used successful tactics that have really swayed public opinion and have moved people to their side and have even successfully, in some ways, you know, when we talk about Kilmar, checked some of the ambitions of the Trump administration. So I do think, you know, I know people get pissed off when you like, oh, why are you nitpicking the tactics? But look, this is not a game. This is very serious. These are want to be fascists. And he is an authoritarian

who wants to use whatever pretext he can to crack down and to crush dissent and to spin, you know, to create images and spin narrative and tell a story that plays into his hands. And so I think it's really important to be smart and strategic and not give him what he wants to provide a more effective pretext. Well, they're never going to listen to me. So for all the protest leaders from Christmas. No, I think they would listen to you, actually. They'd probably hate me, but that's fine.

I love you guys, too. It's okay. All right, let's go on to Elon. At the same time, an extraordinary fallout between Elon Musk and Donald Trump. Crystal and the team have already covered much of that, but we do have some new developments, mostly within the MAGA movement, who are really turning on Elon Musk. Steve Bannon, who, of course, has been gunning for Musk from day one, really seizing the opportunity to drive the point home that he's an interloper, he's a big tech oligarch, and now he wants to deport him. Let's take a listen.

And then as soon as President Trump comes out today, and President Trump's saying it in the nicest way possible about the bill, right? The bill, the bing, ba-bang, ba-bang. The guy gets up and starts tweeting the most vicious stuff you could tweet. So all the fanboys defend this. He accused President Trump of basically being a group with those pedophiles on the island. He called for he called for the president to be impeached and J.D. Vance to take his role. As hard as we've worked in all the years that we've walked in this audience's work, some punk is going to sit there and go, he should be impeached. And hey, as sure as the turning of the earth, if those progressives rub up on him and say, hey, they're never going to buy the Tesla's,

we're going to buy the Tesla's, they rub up on him, he'll write a $500 million check for Akeem Jeffries. He'll be across the thing looking to impeach President Trump, looking to help steal the 28th election, looking to imprison President Trump. So here's my point. Let's get ahead of it. And shipping $13 million out of here. Let me change that.

$13 million in one because Elon Musk is illegal. He's got to go too, okay? You're going to ship these other people home? Let's start with the South Africans, okay? And I've got a couple other could go, too, but he's illegal. Deport immediately. We all want to cut federal spending. His promise and commitment to the president of cutting one trillion dollars in federal spending was something he stuck to the end until we found out it was all a fraud.

I mean, this is what caused the physical altercation you had in the West Wing right outside the Oval Office between the Secretary of Treasury, Scott Besson, who's a good friend of mine and a very even-handed guy. He and Elon got into a physical altercation. And that's because, number one, people felt that day that Elon might have been on drugs. And number two, Scott called him a fraud to his face and said, look, we're in the middle of a terrible budget fight. You committed to a $2 trillion. Then you committed to a trillion dollars. Now you talk about $160 billion. We don't see where you got anything. All right. So, I mean, there's so much to say there. We were joking. Like, what exactly do you need to do to piss off a guy like Scott Besson, you know, a buttoned up Wall Street financier who literally lives in a pink house.

What do you have to do to get him to punch you? I mean, listen, if you're a billionaire, I'd be living in a nice, beautiful house too. I mean, this might have been the first punch Scott Besson has ever thrown at me in my life. It's certainly possible. He hates your guts. Apparently, that was pretty common sentiment within the Trump administration. Very common sentiment. I mean, look, let's go to the next one, please, shall we?

We have Elon's response here to Steve Bannon. Bannon is a criminal who oozes evil from his face like a disease. He's a communist retard. He's a peak retard. Peak retard, as he continues to say over and over again. Also has criminal in there just to mix things up. Criminal peak retard. Which actually is just factually true.

I mean, yeah, I guess technically correct. Wait, was he granted clemency or pardon? I forget. So I don't know. Whatever he is in the eyes of the law. What we do know is this is probably no coming back with his relationship with Donald Trump. And I would say at least a certain sect of MAGA, Trump says Elon Musk will face, quote, very serious consequences if he funds Democratic candidates.

You know, I don't think that is going to happen just because of how far Elon has gone, but I was joking with several friends that Elon- You don't think he'll fund Democratic candidates? No, but Elon is the perfect prey for people who you and I know very well, Crystal, the no labels crowd. Oh, yeah. Elon, I mean, if you think about it, Elon is socially liberal, fiscally conservative. He is filthy rich, and he cares a lot about the debt. He has, you know, very, or at least pretends to care a lot about the debt. And he's got shitloads of money, and he's got private business interests. All of

those things confluence in the bipartisan policy project or the no-label center. He's tweeting about a third party, right? I mean, this is catnip. Some of those abundance folks are going to eat him up. This is catnip for a certain type of Silicon Valley billionaire, the amount of pollsters who are going to charge him 10 times the normal rate to prove his bullshit and his consultants and all of that. I mean, the fallout in some ways I find very vindicating because it's been obvious that Elon has been a huge problem for the Trump administration. But I mean, really what I have to say is looking at the Trump administration is Elon has made them

look like fools. And the reason I say that is think about the amount of political capital that they went to bat for Elon Musk in the first 90 days of the Trump administration. And particularly, let's say with the first 45 days, the central story of the United States of America was Doge, was waste, fraud, and abuse. Now, I certainly still think that there is a popular sentiment behind Doge and the idea of government corruption and all that. But by about 45 days or so, we have a story. This is bullshit, right? This is just people who are gallivanting around, getting access to systems, chaos, 10-day, what did you do today emails. The White House went to extraordinary lengths to defend Elon. I mean, they had a car dealership marketing thing on the White House lawn. That's as good as it gets for any company.

He bought a Tesla on the South Lawn of the White House. I lawn, that's as good as it gets for any company. It's crazy. He bought a Tesla on the South Lawn of the White House. I mean, that's fucking insane, okay? I mean, that's nuts. They said they're going to charge people with domestic terrorism for burning down— Now, listen, you know, maybe. Make sure it applies to everybody. But they were talking about Tesla specifically, right? I mean, they brought the full force of the White House and the United States federal government basically to bear to defend this man's reputation.

They stretched the law, special government employee, Doge. I mean, how many cases before the United States Supreme Court overdose? And then to have a falling out like this is just so immensely embarrassing because it always comes back to the original stories of the first Trump administration where somebody would leave and then they would attack Trump. And look, Trump and Matt Gunn-Olin would always attack them. But, you know, it always comes back to judgment. It's like, yeah, but why did you hire him in the first place? Right. So it's like John Bolton.

You'd be like, John Bolton is a warmonger. Like, yeah, but why did you hire him? What were you doing? Yeah. Right. So that's about bad judgment. And so really, I mean, I just think they look incredibly foolish. Like you have all these statements from the White House, from Donald Trump. I mean, all of the bromance pictures, so many of the, you know, the Elon's kid in the in the Oval Office, all this craziness. bigger hand. It's like you accepted his ketamine use and his erratic behavior and all the political problems that he caused initially. You basically whitewashed so many of the corruption allegations,

I mean, which were obvious and true, going on at the time. And it's only now that he attacks you personally that you're willing to turn on him. I mean, in a certain sense, I don't think it's a bad thing. I mean, because really what you have watched is a defenstration of, I think, a lot of the tech bro alliance with MAGA, because a lot of them, I really believe they thought Washington was almost even more corrupt than it is. And they're like, we can just buy our way in. And they didn't realize that actually there's courts and Congress and all this other stuff. And you actually have to align with democratic institutions. And I do feel like Elon's real breaking point is he didn't understand that you actually can't just buy everything that you want.

I mean, we have the NASA administrator who got loomered, which is hilarious. What did he do? He donated to some democratic politician. Yeah, which they know. Like one time, which he told Trump. And only recently they were like, oh, actually, no, that's a huge problem. I can only assume that the NASA guy

was probably going to be highly preferential to SpaceX. Of course. But then you also have, you know, the standoff around the debt. I'm not going to speculate around Elon's intentions with, I mean, he probably does care about the debt

in a very like melee libertarian sense. It's always kind of been his politics. But really what I think it is, is that the GOP was not listening to him. And I think the reason is, it's not just they were listening to Trump. Guys, this is Washington. There are constituents. Elon is like, we need to cut the debt. The New York congressman is like, I will not vote for this bill unless every millionaire in my district gets a salt deduction. That's called democratic politics. Everyone's like, oh, this bill is full of pork. Yeah. That's how it works. Part of the thing that he's finding out and interacting with are actual politicians who are responsible to people. And I think that is something that he is, I think he's irreconcilable now truly to the

political system. But bigger story is just the Trump administration and the Republican Party made a huge mistake, I think, by becoming so wholly tied to Elon Musk and his er is like, fine, okay, everybody does it. But they kind of fused themselves both to Elon's benefit, to his identity and to his company. That was devastating. Already, we can talk about the company. We can look at the stock price into Elon and all that. But to the Republican Party, you basically took somebody who was an erratic person, not even an American, you know, originally born, natural born American citizen, who has all kinds of conflicts of interest, not a politician by any means or any right, and you subsumed him into your identity and you took all of the political hit. And I would say, you know, if you really look at it, the two prongs that have hit the Trump administration the hardest, it has been Doge and it has also been the tariffs. And obviously we'll talk about tariffs a little bit later, but those two combined as a one-two punch, I think it's been devastating, you know, to a lot of their political prospects even now in the future.

So anyway, that's – I mean I don't think these are particularly original thoughts. But I just think it was a huge mistake from the very beginning. Everybody could see it coming from a mile away that eventually something, you know, would tear between. If you look at Elon's entire history, like, I mean, he brought himself into our world, right? Like, every relationship he's in is a fucking mess. I mean, you guys should read. I really encourage people to read Ashley Vance's biography of Elon.

Like, he had a longtime secretary who had the gall to, like, ask him for a raise because she's like, hey, I do a lot of work around here. And he just fired her. And it's like, what? It's like every business partner, every major investor. I mean, he was forced out of, everyone forgets this, at PayPal. They were like, Elon, we can't deal with him. And they forced him out as the CEO overnight. I mean, he's always been like this, disagreeable and kind of crazy. So this was an eventual outcome. I do think, though, that the damage to the Doge project that has done to the White House is something that's going to be very difficult for them because that was the initial spark of a lot of the original political protests against Trump. The tariffs, I think, hit everybody, devastated a lot of political opinion.

And now you have all the elements of a bad Trump story, which is infighting between two principal actors. Everybody loves juicy drama. We've got the Epstein stuff, which we'll get to in a little bit, which is just clownish in terms of the way the Trump administration is handling it. And so, yeah, I mean, just broadly, I think it's bad. But it is a great lesson, I think, as to why these people should not actually be all that intertwined in our democratic system. Like, at the end of the day, yes, you can hate Donald Trump. He is a talented politician. You know, J.D. and all these people, they got themselves elected. Like, they know what they're doing to a certain extent. Even Schumer, okay, yes, I'll even say that they're better than these interlopers.

And so, in a sense, I am a little bit happy just to see some of that come in. Because, I mean, the arrogance was unbelievable in November. I have not told this story publicly. I will say it now. I knew somebody who was very involved with Doge. And they said, you know, we're just so excited because there's never been a serious effort to cut spending in Washington. I literally laughed at them. And I was like, do you know who Paul Ryan is?

I was just like, do you know how to read a fucking book? Like, no offense, you know, but do you even know what you're talking about? And they thought I was the crazy one. Right. And I was like, you have a, I was like, you got a lot coming to you, my friend. In fact, there's a viral clip somebody sent me of me talking specifically about Doge on the Lex Friedman podcast in November where I was like, yeah, I'm not so sure about this. I was like, Congress exists. This is not how Washington works. You know, this, this and this. I was like, you're going to run up against a bureaucracy. And it's effectively what has happened.

And now Elon, through his own personal machinations, has crashed out dramatically. Yeah. And Trump doesn't even want to take his phone calls. Right. Yeah, Trump says that he's not really interested in talking to him. He says he thinks that Elon is depressed and heartbroken. Probably true. I mean, Elon is diagnosed depressed, right? Because of his ketamine. I think he's bipolar, isn't he? He's a mess. He's a mess. And I mean, yes, he's like personally, obviously, a disaster. I'm in the White House with a black guy that you don't even bother to cover. Listen, I still have two black eyes and I can give you some makeup tips. You don't have to show up with that all hanging out, you know, tweaking out. I mean, it's just it's insane. But, you know, he put in more

than a quarter of a billion dollars into Trump's campaign, and he was going to get something significant for that. And he did. And so even as, like, you have to hold two thoughts in your head. Even as Doge was a total and complete failure on the cutting spending and, like, making the government more efficient front. In fact, it did the opposite of both of those things. Elon got things out of it and did have a huge impact in terms of destroying some of these agencies. His investigations got dropped. The latest story says he installed Starlink over the objections of some of the White House folks so that he could pull whatever data he got out of Doge, including possibly like tons of data to feed into his own

AI in order to try to win the AI race versus his rival, Sam Altman. That was apparent. That was another one of the falling out points. I think that as far as we know publicly, the two big things were the NASA administrator getting pulled, which was like the final straw, which that's when Elon just like goes nuclear and starts accusing Trump of being a pedo and all that sort of fun stuff. And claims, by the way, comes out and says like, you won the election because of me, which again is an extraordinary assertion. Just like, yeah, I bought the election. That's what he's saying. The world is not true. I just don't think it's true, like period at all. Like I think, you know, his money was helpful, but what the, oh, the Trump administration was hard up for money. Come on, like get out of here. This is a billion dollar election. What you think the club

for growth or any of those other people aren't going to be able to fund and get out the vote operation. If anything is get out, the operation was shitty by all accounts for all the people. We did cover that. Yeah, we covered it at the time. I mean, I talked to people who were involved. They said, this is a shit show and it's a mess. I mean, Donald Trump won the election because of Donald Trump and because of Kamala Harris, Elon and all mess. I mean, Donald Trump won the election because of Donald Trump and because of Kamala Harris. Elon and all that, I mean, was it helpful at a very high level narrative, you know, to have Twitter bought? Yeah, I mean, probably. Twitter, the Twitter piece I think was very important.

But I wouldn't call it election swinging. It was more. It's so hard to say though. Nobody really knows. I mean, when you think about the vibe shift and that, and having all the tech guys all in on it, and I didn't mean to... They were all in, and also I'm specifically talking

about the all-in podcast. Who, by the way, are silent and are cowards. And I say this as a person who considers David Sachs as a friend. Chamath, David, Jason, speak up! You guys wanted this. I've met you all before. You guys wanted to be in politics. You have to show up. Yes, I've been

on parental leave, but you guys don't have an excuse. You have to show up and you have to talk about all the shit. Even the bad stuff. Even when it makes you look bad. You wanted this. You wanted to be major political commentators. Show the fuck up. Where are you? Your silence is deafening. Only David gets an excuse because he works in the government.

Everybody else, speak up. Chamath, where are you, bro? Chamath is literally tweeting about his dick size, and he doesn't have anything to say about you on it. All right? So I'm just saying. Commentary. All right? Yeah, he called himself an anaconda.

Who, by the way, if you have a billion dollars, what a fucking loser. I'll talk about this. Also, if you are saying things like that publicly, it really makes me question it. Just saying. Yeah. Yeah. it really makes me question it. Just saying. Yeah. Yeah. So there's all of that. I mean, I think, so this gets to who has the power now in this dynamic?

Who's going to quote unquote win? And look, obviously Trump is president of the United States. He's a million times more charismatic than Elon. The people around him, you know, I mean, they have like a love-hate relationship with him. But he inspires respect. Elon inspires like disgust and hatred apparently over time as people spend time around him. And so obviously Trump has more cards to play. I will say though, I am surprised at how meekly Trump has responded. It has been very rhetorically, it has been very meek.

Now, he's threatening all of Elon's contracts. Elon tweeted this out, though, which I think is also noteworthy. He said, whatever happens, we've got the spaceships and they do not. Which, you know, he's pointing to the fact that NASA and the space program really is kind of fucked without SpaceX because and this is a trend that started. Barack Obama is really the one that pushed towards SpaceX and towards privatizing so much of the space program. I would say this is case in point of why it's so devastating to rely on like a single oligarch or a handful of oligarchs for things that are essential government capacity. And so he's holding that over Trump's head. And I mean, who knows what sort of data he has. There may be pieces that we aren't aware of,

cards that Elon can play. The other two parts that are obvious are Starlink is really critical for this critical communications infrastructure that Elon has control over. And the other one is Twitter. Twitter has become the backbone of the conservative movement and conservative discourse. I mean, it really has become extremely central. And so the fact he has control over that is another arrow in his quiver and could be part of why Trump is not going nuclear in the way that Elon has. I mean, again, think about it. Elon said, your tariffs suck and they're going to cause a recession. You're a pedo. You did not even win the election.

I won it for you. And all Trump has to say is like, oh, I'm sorry. He's so heartbroken. See, I could read it that way. I also could read it as like, it's humiliating. You know what I mean? One of my best friends or most politically aligned person was like openly shitting on me. He'd just be like,

yeah, I mean, you want to try and be- But Trump isn't one to be humiliated. Like this man is shameless. He's not one to be humiliated. I truly have no idea what goes on into it. I do think, look, this was brewing at a meta level inside of the White House now for some time.

Can we go ahead and put B5 plea up on the screen? People have predicted some grand, you know, reconciliation between the two. I just wish him well. Likewise, Elon says, after apparently trying to get Elon on the phone multiple times and has, or sorry, Trump on the phone multiple times and Trump has refused to take his call. I mean, the relationship already lasted so much longer than I thought that I just don't really even want to speculate. I think really what's been embarrassing is the fact that MAGA, Cat Turd, and all these other people caped for Elon so hard only to then have to turn on him at this point. It makes you look very foolish. I mean, the point is, is with Elon is like,

Elon is, I mean, Elon was always kind of this independent sphere, very obviously trying to use his influence both to benefit himself, but also like a broader technology aligned thing. And let's be honest, it is complicated. Like between Elon and Sam Altman, like, I'm with Elon on that one, right? I mean, I'm not pro-Sam Altman on some open AI insane takeover. And broadly, with the project, what we really see here is this is a classic Trumpian-style story, where when they're with you, they go all in. You're a god, and we're buying Teslas and Cybertrucks. And then when they turn against you, it's like, I hardly knew the guy. Let's deport him. And it's like, how about maybe, it's like, thank you for supporting us. We're fine without you. It's really nice for you to be here with us. But it's like, we have an independent project. And some of the smart ones have always seen that. You know, that's why I've always respected Steve Bannon.

There's been some smarter ones out there as well who are always like, yeah, you know, this is a problem. We can see this coming from a mile away. But, you know, there are a number of just like impressionable kind of right-wing guys, I would say, who really got taken in by a lot of this project. And I think they look really fresh. And that goes all the way up to the top. Yeah. I mean, that's like, I think Trump fell into this idea, oh, he's such a genius and he's a great man. Like, I think he got pulled into some of that as well, which is part of why he let him go as far as he did. I mean, this stuff was unhinged, being on the stage with a chainsaw, gleefully firing people, destroying all of these agencies,

you know, wild violation of law. There's all this reporting these agencies, you know, wild violation of the law. There's all this reporting now that, you know, Susie Wiles and these people are like, what are you doing? Like they did not know in advance what he was doing and probably still don't know exactly what's going on. And that is one of the things that he's got is these doge kids are still, who are more loyal to him, are still populating. Although they're afraid of being dozed. These agencies. I think they should be dozed at this point. I mean, it's been such a failure.

They should be. Of course. Yes. It's been humiliating. Yeah, they absolutely should be out of it. They had no business being in there in the first place. So, you know, last thing I'll say is there was, we started with Trump saying, oh, there'll be serious consequences if Elon starts funding Democrats.

You know, I think that, I think, first of all, no Democrat should be taking this guy's money. Like, why? Did you see how this went for Republicans? Do you think this went well for them? Like, just even on a basic tactical, practical level, you think this went well. Second of all, if you're going to be a real party that does anything real, you have to be oppositional to these oligarchs. You have to be oppositional to Elon.

And so I think it will be a badge of shame for any Democrat who takes money from Elon Musk. And I do not, I think the base will be thoroughly disgusted with that. Because to your point, Sagar, I mean, he did make himself such a toxic, horrifying, and galvanizing figure in the early days of the Trump administration with his Roman salute and all the rest. And so the Democratic is not going to forget that. And so if you're a Democratic politician who thinks you're going to take some money from Elon and nobody's going to have anything to say about it, I think you are dead wrong on that front. Yeah, I definitely agree with that. This is an iHeart Podcast.