Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 7/21/23: Inside The Hollywood Strike w/ Ron Perlman, Susan Sarandon, Michelle Hurd

Episode Date: July 21, 2023

Krystal and Saagar are joined by actors and SAG members Ron Perlman, Susan Sarandon, and Michelle Hurd to talk about the strike, their demands, and the greedy studio execs at the heart of the problem.To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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show. So as part of our coverage of the Hollywood shutdown with the actors and writers on strike, we brought to you some colorful commentary from Ron Perlman spelling out exactly how he felt about the studio execs saying they were going to keep the writers out on strike until they start losing their homes. And we are very excited to be joined now by Ron Perlman himself. Welcome. I'm just glad to be at large after the events of the last few days. Well, talk to us a little bit. Thanks for having me.

It's our pleasure. We're really grateful you took the time. Just talk to us a little bit about some of the emotions that animated what you had to say. It's savage when, especially people who are colleagues of yours or purported to be colleagues of yours in the same industry as you, with the same wants and needs and hopefully visions as you to have to to not to i mean saying feeling it is is bad saying it out loud is is completely unacceptable we're not going to come to the bargaining table until people start losing their houses. And it just pushes a lot of buttons and it's indicative of a kind of a struggle that's been going on since labor decided to organize and forced management to at least address um giving us a modicum of recognition um yeah there's a lot of other things we want but

recognition that we're humans and that we have families and that we're doing all the work that gives you guys the right to give you heavy, big golden parachutes and whatever other toys that you're obsessed with having. But we just would like to be treated with some dignity and respect and humanity. And if you give us those things, you'll be amazed at how far that kind of goodwill goes with working stiffs. We're pretty loyal people.

We're not out for golden parachutes. We're just out for a good day's pay, for a good day's work, and the ability to raise our families with dignity. Right. Ron, your comments were kind of misconstrued by a lot of people in the media. You issued a quote, clarification. I actually didn't think what you were saying was all that threatening. What do you think that the reception to it, though, sparked in terms of people putting the quote on T-shirts, it really becoming a rallying cry, shows about the way that the writers and the actors are standing tall in the current strike? Well, there was a movie called Network. Great movie.

Peter Finch said, I want you to go to your windows and open them up and stick your head out and say, I'm mad as hell and I'm not going to take it anymore. And I think we're at this point in our society where the haves and the have-nots are almost at Les Miserables levels.

The disparity is so great. The threat to the very existence of a middle class is really palpable and really real. And so I think when you respond to it in a kind of a visceral, no holds barred, shoot from the hip kind of way, people go, fuck yeah. Yeah. I wish I'd said that, you know. So that's what it was. But, you know, I noticed that, you know, I've been taking to Instagram Live for the five days, hence, and none of that's making the news. It's just they want to, the way the media is set up, they go for the clickbait.

They go for the stuff that's incendiary and bordering on unacceptable. And the reason why I went back on and clarified my comments and said that I don't really wish anybody any harm, but I hope the motherfucker who made that statement also doesn't wish anybody any harm, is because I didn't want it to be taken as this one-dimensional, out-of-control, very dismissible kind of rant. It was a call to decency.

And it needed to be put in a perspective where it wasn't used in some kind of incendiary clickbait fashion. Right. Ron, what do you have to say to studio heads who say, listen, streaming has taken a big bite out of our apple. We're struggling to figure out this new business model. And as Bob Iger said from Disney, the demands from actors aren't reasonable. They're unreasonable.

What's your response to those claims? Fuck you. I mean, I listed the salaries of the 10 guys in Eiger, I think, is second. You know, it's up in the $235 million a year range. You can't tell me. You can't plead poverty from your yacht

and be credible. You come off like a Dickens villain. And if that's the conversation that needs to be had, I said something else, you know, in the aftermath of those initial comments, which is that this strike is nothing more than a symptom of a kind of a cynicism that has taken hold between the people who only get their ill-gotten gains by devaluing other people. And it's kind of a gaslighting that we don't just see it in the motion picture industry.

We see it everywhere. There's an entire party that runs on making sure we hate each other, making sure we devalue each other. That's the way, that's their route into controlling us, which is, you know, people who are power hungry. That's the game plan. So a guy who tells me we don't have the resources and then writes himself a fucking check for $235 million,

you know, I mean, come on. Come on. You know, don't piss down my back and tell me it's raining. You're in a lucky position, Ron. People know your name. You're able, you name. We can talk here. We've talked

previously with Susan Sarandon just a couple of minutes ago. We were talking about how many of the people who are in the union, these people are barely struggling in order to get health insurance. So why do you think it's important for people like you and others who are maybe more well-known by the public in order to speak out on behalf of those people? I just think all we're really looking for is a level playing field. And I think that what we're hoping for is some sort of a recognition that we're kind of in different size boats, but we're all on the same seas and we're all rowing in the same direction. And the conclusion I ultimately came to

after many days of grappling with all this is that we should be loving each other. We recognize your value. We hope that you recognize ours. And that's something that just needs to be said in terms of taking the temperature down in the country

and stop having a class of people who are orchestrating nothing but disease and tension. That comes from just following the golden rule, loving your neighbor, and realizing that that everybody's got families and everybody's got parents that need medicine and care. And I just, I think that that needs to be the conversation. And it plugs into this particular issue.

If you get all that stuff right, then everything else kind of falls into place, I think. Yeah, I think that is very well said. Ron, we're really grateful for your time and grateful for you speaking your mind. It's powerful to hear. really prominent people such as yourself speaking out, not just on behalf of this particular struggle, but connecting it to broader struggles and to the overall greed of corporate CEOs and the way that this impacts working people across the country. So thank you so much for your time, sir. Thank you, Ron. Thanks for having me, guys. Absolutely. We've been following closely here what is going on in Hollywood with what is now basically a complete shutdown.

You have the writers and the actors out on strike. So joining us now, we're really lucky to have Michelle Hurd. She's a negotiating committee member, and she's also SAG-AFTRA National Vice President of Los Angeles. And we're also joined by Susan Sarandon, who, of course, is an Academy Award-winning actress and political activist whose words have been said to be so powerful that she swayed an entire presidential election. Ladies, great to have you both. Welcome. Thank you, Crystal.

Thank you. Yes. Thank you for being here. Absolutely. Michelle, if you could just start by sort of laying out the status of negotiations and what are some of the key demands that you all have asked for that are not being met? Yeah. So this is really all about

economics because, you know, we actors, we are laborers. We are working class people. And this is all about fair working wages so that we can make a living to pay our rent. You know, there's a misconception of actors that we're sort of all these elitists that are living in penthouses and riding around in yachts. But I really want to clarify this. All the TV shows that you love watching, all those different characters, those actors that you say, oh, there's that person, that guy from that show, you don't necessarily know their names. You may see me and go, that curly haired actress. You could see me do three or four guest stars on your favorite shows. And you're thinking, wow, that actress is working so much.

You know, she must be feeling really good right now. In order for me to qualify for my health insurance, I need $26,000. I could do four guest spots on your favorite shows. And because there's something called Top of Show, which the AMPTP introduced to us, it's a salary that is the minimum. We can't negotiate any higher. They say, this is what you have to take. It could be 5,000 to 8, it's a salary that is the minimum. We can't negotiate any higher. They say,

this is what you have to take. It could be $5,000 to $8,000. I could do those four episodics in my year, and I still don't qualify for health insurance. This is the majority of our union. 87% of our union, which by the way is 160,000 people, 87% don't qualify for health insurance because of these caps. Our caps, by the way, which are the employees' contributions to the SAG After Health Plan, the SAG Pension, and the After Retirement Fund, are limited to episodic contributions which haven't been raised since 1983. That's the reason why we had such a terrible thing in having people fall off their health insurance. Since 1983, you guys, that is not reflective of any kind of insurance, any other job, any other vocation that this

happens. We've had situations where our AMPTP in this proposal have asked that when background artists come to do work, they can be scanned for their one day to make an avatar of their person. That one day of work is under $200, 150 bucks. That avatar stays in their library and they can use my avatar on any show that they want, anything that they want in perpetuity. And I will get not one penny from that. The self-tape, actors are paying for the access to audition. I mean, the list goes on and on. I could spend an hour telling you all these things. So the bottom line here is that what we're doing is we're fighting to have a living wage.

We are working paycheck to paycheck. There's nothing elitist here. We're talking about fairness. And when there's a billion dollars being made and we can't even make our insurance, which is just $26,000 a year to qualify, something's wrong. Yeah, absolutely. And Susan, you were talking a bit before we started about how even A-listers, you've been involved in a lot of independent films. A lot

of people's knowledge of Hollywood really relies on big blockbusters. Could you give people insight into why these negotiations are key for movies that may not be household names, but are still vital to art and also to making sure that people in the future also get paid what's a fair wage. Well, I also want to say I have two sons, one who is a writer, director, and the other one who's an actor. And they both went off their insurance for the longest time because even though they were working, they weren't working, making enough money for them to again hold on to their insurance so you know we see it everywhere um everybody's prices are down of course you get a script you want to do

it if it's a special scripts and then you say well maybe we could do a back-end deal you know so that we get something at the end but having a good property, actors will always take it and crews will work. There's so many things that I do that are kind of labors of love. And you hope that at the back end, you'll see something. But of course, with streaming, those deals don't really mean anything anymore because, you know, they'll take it straight and put it on a stream. So even though you've taken minimum, which also minimum wage is ridiculous because that's also not been touched. The basic problem is that

whatever was worked out in terms of the business agreements in the 60s, whenever, obviously, they're obsolete with what has happened to the business. And there was something, I don't know,

Michelle, if you want to talk about, but this paramount, what is it? This thing that expired in 2020 in the midst of all of the pandemic and the election and everything that was going on, we weren't paying attention to this thing that expired, which changes again the business model and made it more difficult. Can you explain that? Because that's a very interesting thing that I didn't know about. Yeah. Well, I'm trying to remember what you're referring to. I will say to clarify all of the differences of what we used to have. So everybody's used to linear television, right?

We had 22, 24, 26 episodes. That's 10 months of work, right? So that's 10 months of work that your actor gets. Then we have residuals, which is, you know, this was a cash cow for the AMPTP. They were making hand over fist and actors were making a sustainable living. What has been introduced to us now,

which is the streaming platforms, the new media, which Sarah and literally referring to that if she does a film, maybe she does this independent film and there might be a back end, that independent film now is going to go straight to a streamer. Those platforms don't give us residuals. And the insidious thing about this new business plan that was forced upon actors is that we were now introduced to this concept of short series. We would be taken away, probably go to some other state that we don't live on. So we're already going to be paying us two rents. We would shoot for five months, 10 episodes. Then those streaming platforms would hold that show. You guys have seen this because you're waiting for your favorite shows to drop. They wait till they decide to drop it, then they drop it. Then they can wait

one, two, three, four years to inform me as to whether that show is going to get picked up, let alone whether I'm picked up with that show. So in that time, I can't procure another series regular job. I can't do something that might help my career to get me level me up. What Susan was referring to, instead of shows, films being, you know, staying in the theaters for longer, they're shortening it so they can put it on streaming platforms. I bet you guys are always wondering, why do my favorite show get, you know, just get, have their final season at the third season, even though I was loving it and everybody was liking it. Our streamers basically only commit

to a three season, maybe four season, because then they're going to wrap that and they want to create a new shiny show so that they can get more subscribers. They're telling us that our audiences won't watch more than three seasons. We know that's not true. They also are doing that because if they go into four or five seasons, then they have to pay us more syndication fees and more money in residuals. So they literally are working us till the point where they don't have to pay any more than scrapping us and bringing up a new shiny object to draw eyes. Does it all sound familiar? Because basically what you're seeing

that's playing out within our world is what you're seeing everywhere. Thank you. You're seeing in every union. And it's gotten to the point now where it's so ridiculous that people have nothing to lose because it's now or never to solve these problems. Right. We're not going to get a shot.

And that's why the resolve on the part of actors and writers is so strong right now. And the UPS and teachers and, you know, all of these people that are rising up. The railroad workers should have. I mean, that was horrible what happened to that union because we are now even more unsafe. And it's all about changing, again, the means of how they operate in order to buy back their stock or pay their, you know, not put it back into the business and not make it accessible to just give people a few days off and therefore making everything so unsafe within the railroads. And it's happening on all these jobs. This is what the UPS thing is about. And the Teamsters are so strong.

We'll see what happens with them. I think what you're seeing, what this is a good example of, is something that's very healthy, which is the rising up of Amazon workers, the unionization of all of these different areas where people are saying, you know, this is just impossible. This is just, it has gotten so, so huge. The gap between working people and those that control things and don't contribute to it. You know, it was pretty funny. I saw this tweet where they asked a computer, which do you feel more qualified to replace, the actors or the CEOs?

And the computers gave this response about, oh, we can easily do the CEO job. You know, it's all about, you know, figure and serve it. It's not, there's nothing human in that job, really. I hope they heard that. I hope those CEOs heard that. That's right. This is a double-edged sword. You know, the bubble that exists around these people that are spending their money going

up in space for four minutes as opposed to what, what, what has happened to empathy? What has happened to the idea of giving your people the means to live a dignified life so they can do the best job so that they want to, so that they, they're excited about working, you know, not making them super rich, but just a decent way. So you can have a house and feed your family and not have to take, you know, teachers are taking three jobs. I mean, this is crazy what has happened to the working class in this country. They're just gone. And I think that it's a very hopeful sign that people recognize that our first, well, it was really the writers' first thing

when I went to stand with them and I stood with the minors and I stood. When they see that other unions are there, when people were speaking from all kinds of unions, and now there's a Broadway element that's talking and when the Teamsters came to ours and when the students came to ours, this is what America was built on, if you remember.

And people died to try to get safe and fair places to work. And I think strangely, we're back where we were. I think connecting all of those struggles together is so incredibly important because the fight for your own livelihoods is essential and compelling and important and courageous in and of itself. But you're obviously part of a larger groundswell of labor activism and labor militancy, which, you know, I frankly haven't seen in my lifetime from the Starbucks workers unions to potentially

the UPS Teamsters going out on strike. You mentioned teachers. I mean, there's so many actions that are happening right now. Michelle, I also wanted to get your view on something that I just think it's very indicative of the contempt and the sort of tactics that are leveled against workers who are trying to exercise their rights. Go ahead and put this first element up on the screen of these trees that were inexplicably, aggressively trimmed, right where the picket lines were going on. I mean, we're all suffering through this horrific heat wave.

So people are already out there in these extreme temperatures, but they were at least getting a little bit of shade from these trees. And the studio goes ahead and cuts these things back to basically nothing. The city council is saying, listen, we had nothing to do with this and we didn't permit it whatsoever. You might say, all right, is this a big deal? But I feel like this is so revealing

of the type of attitude and contempt that is shown towards working people. You can see the pictures here up on the screen of the book before and after there. It's so, it's horrific. It's horrific. And across the street, the trees have not been touched because this is just in front of the studios. I mean, this is the same kind of people who said, let's wait till the writers are kicked out of their homes, become homeless, and then they'll come to the table. These are the types of people

that we are talking about. When you have to negotiate with someone who's making $78,000 a day and your actors, 160,000 which consist of voiceover artists, singers, dancers, background artists, stunt coordinators, principal actors, can't make $26,000 in a year. This is about inhumane treatment. And you're absolutely right. And thank you, Susan, for bringing that up because this is, we are literally a labor union. We are fighting for all of us because that divide between corporate greed and the working individual is so vast now that, you know, I'm sure I hope some of the people have seen the article on Orange is the New Black. When that came out, everybody was like, wow, this is an amazing show. Everybody saw it. Eyes were on that streaming platform. Majority of those actors did

not give up their day job because they were being paid below a minimum for a weekly series regular on a big streaming show. I think Snoop Dogg posted something that I thought was fabulous. He was like, I don't understand this. Show me the money. If you're having a show that's getting billions of eyes, people watching it, how come there's no money? How come there is no money for the artist? These streaming platforms, which basically came busted out about 15 years ago, they're still called new media. It's not new media. It's been here for a while. We, they have become as powerful and as popular as you know it on the backs of writers, of actors, of the creatives. If it wasn't for the creatives, we are the engine of that car. If we weren't there,

there would be no streaming platforms. If we could just get 2%, 1% of the revenue profits, our unions would be so solid. Those 87% of our members who haven't qualified for health insurance, 98% of our 160,000 members work below the minimums. If we had that little bite, that tiny little nibble of the revenue shares, all of our unions would be solid. Our health insurance would be stronger. You know, our sets would be more respected. You know, when you're talking to people who are making billions of dollars and we're just a tiny bit of their portfolio,

I think that there's a disconnect between humanity and what is right and what is wrong. And these people seem to be holding tight to what is wrong. You have to remember, too, that when Ashok is filming, what is right and what is wrong. And these people seem to be holding tight to what's wrong. You have to remember too, that when Ashok is filming, you're connected to a community that's making food and putting people up and travel.

It's like you pitch your tent and it's affecting a lot of people, not just the actors. I mean, you've got the crew members, but you've also got the outreach into the community that's supporting a film, no matter where it's made, you know, it's bringing a new in. So now that's all stopped too. Everything that's connected. I can't go to the opening of my film mid-August. That would have been a big thing that was going on in LA that affected everybody, hotels, you know, all kinds of services during the months here, three months there in a small

town in New Jersey. You don't think that that, you know, the local guy making us sandwiches was affected by that? Exactly. Every state that we go to, we have a huge outreach to the, you know, every state we come to dry cleaners, you know, street clean. I mean, it's, it's, I think people don't realize how long the tentacles are when a production comes to your, your state. You know, I think there was also just because I have to drill it in during the WGA strike. I think, I wonder if people saw that tweet or article that the Netflix CEOs were still asking for their bonuses even during the WGA strike. And we were able to find out those funds. So those bonuses for CEOs were like $15 million, $17 million, $10 million, $14 million on top of their

multimillion-dollar salaries. Now that cobbled together for just that one streamer, for just Netflix, those CEOs, would have been about $168 million. The contract that the WGA was requesting that would make their entire union solvent, that would help all those WGA writers be able to live and pay their rent and take care of their children and put food on their table,

was $60 million. Wow. Where can you $60 million. Wow. Where can you find that money? Wow. I think we can figure out where we can find it. Right in the bonuses. Well said. Susan, let me ask you one last question,

which is you and I share a lot of political perspective. We have a very similar ideology. And you don't always see actors in Hollywood really speaking out on behalf of labor. And it would be incredibly powerful, and it is incredibly powerful right now to see names with huge cultural power and cachet really talking about corporate greed, really talking about the struggles of working people. Do you think that after the strike is over, you'll continue to see some of that energy from Hollywood with regards to other labor struggles across the country, the type that

you routinely support? I hope so. I mean, I think that it's taken a bit for a lot of people in my business to understand what a union means and that they're in a union until something like this happens. You know, I do remember that there, when there was the long strike that had to do with commercials and they called in some more visible people like us and, you know, explaining to people that you can't cross the picket line was something that they hadn't really understood and that you should never cross a picket line, whether or not it's hotel workers or whatever. This lack of knowledge about your history feeds into this too, you know?

And also you don't see in mainstream media a lot of the uprising of the middle class or the working class in other countries. You know, that has really played down. So they don't even want you to imagine. And you can't really expect change unless you can imagine that there's something different. This is where artists have their strength.

You know, we want to give you stories. We want to give you examples of people who've become the protagonist in their own life and who make a difference in their circumstances by just demanding what really is due them. And I think it's, you know, I saw on Bernie's campaign when talking about health care, what needed to be done to change the language of that? Because we've been in such a terrible relationship, you know, where

we were, nobody thought they deserved healthcare. That was something that other people had. So I think that all of these concepts now, and this is an example where you're saying, no, you know, when people say, oh, nobody wants to work, that pisses me off so bad because basically what you're saying is you don't want to pay them people don't want to pay uh don't want to be in jobs anymore where they're working for slave wages and treated badly and have ridiculous hours and aren't safe yeah they learned during covid they were supposed to be special and supposed to be you know taken care of in order to make the other people's lives go smoothly. And then, bam, the middle of the moment that's over with, they're dispensable.

You know, I'm sorry, but that's not, you know, I hope that it's an awakening. And I hope that the members of my union, now that they've been activated, understand that we have to look out for everybody. This is where our strength comes from. This is, again, this is what the basis of America moving forward came from. All the changes that stopped child labor and gave us a 40-hour work week and all of these things. That's how that happened. It's never going to be the top giving up power.

It's going to always have to be that, you know. And when you stand up for your Teamster driver or your taxi driver or the person that's working in the hotel, when you show up there, they're so grateful. And I was so grateful on one of our earlier demonstrations to look around and have people speaking and see the students, you know, there and Broadway there. And this was before we went out. And the Teamsters saying, we're going to be there for you. This is I mean, this moves you to see that. We've been too isolated.

The thing that Americans just do not want to ever talk about. And I've had this come up in press for films that I've done, is class. They distract with all these other cultural things that don't affect a small portion of the population, but they don't want to really look at what's going on in the way our lives are structured, which is all about class. And this part getting super, super, super rich, and this part getting less and less and less viable. Right. Well, ladies, you're both extraordinary.

We're really grateful for both of you taking the time out. And I hope you'll come back and keep us updated as things progress. Absolutely. Thank you, guys, for having us on. And also, maybe we'll give you what, maybe you could run something that just says the fund that you can contribute to if anybody wants to.

We'll put the link in the description. Yes, please do send us that and we'll put it in the description. Yeah, SAG-AFTRAfoundation.org would be awesome. It'll help with emergency assistance for all of our members because you know that a bunch of our 160,000 members are going to be hurting in these next couple of weeks. It's going to go on for quite a while. Happy to support you. They're not even talking about the core issues.

They refuse to even talk. So they're just, everybody loses their houses and can't eat. So we need everyone to vote. Yeah, like what Susan said, they literally dragged their feet in our negotiations. It was so disrespectful. So disrespectful. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Well, ladies, like I said, keep us updated. Everybody, we will have that link in the description. And thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you for the time.

Good to see you. Our pleasure. I'm Jeff Perlman. And I'm Rick Jervis. We're journalists and hosts of the podcast Finding Our pleasure. woke up. But then I see, my son's not moving. So we started digging and uncovered city officials bent on protecting their own. Listen to Finding Sexy Sweat coming June 19th on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to

shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Michael Kassin, founder and CEO of 3C Ventures and your guide on good company.

The podcast where I sit down with the boldest innovators shaping what's next. In this episode, I'm joined by Anjali Sood, CEO of Tubi. We dive into the competitive world of streaming. What others dismiss as niche, we embrace as core. There are so many stories out there. And if you can find a way to curate and help the right person discover the right content, the term that we always hear from

our audience is that they feel seen. Listen to Good Company on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.