Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 7/29/26: Iran Surprise Attack On US As Trump Threatens Retaliation, Lindsey Graham Bibi Plot Against ICC

Episode Date: July 29, 2026

Krystal and Emily discuss Trump threatens Iran after attack on US bases, Lindsey Graham plotted with Bibi on ICC attacks. Jasper Nathaniel: https://www.infinitejaz.com/Alex Holder: https://x.com/alexjholder?lang=en To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com    Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

This is an I-Heart podcast. Guaranteed Human. Hey, Portlandia fans. Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The Dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia, AEO, rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters,

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or the bizarre crime Lady Gaga is accused of where that time Blondie's Debbie Harry escaped Ted Bunny. Listen to Discraselan on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly, massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that

simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breakingpoints.com. Good morning. Welcome to breaking points. Crystal is in for the one and only Ryan Grimm. So we've replaced Ryan Grimm with the one and only Crystal Ball. It's great to have it. Ryan is kind of irreplaceable, if we're being honest, though. Yeah, he's singular. He's singular. We'll put it that way. He is singular. Very true. Lots of big stories to get into, including some significant developments in Iran. They launched an attack on the U.S. in Jordan. This is really the first time that they have attacked without it being a sort of eye for an eye where they're retaliating situation. So that is a very significant development. and we'll dig into that. The filmmaker who followed Lindsey Graham around in the last months of his life is going to join us with some new raw footage and to talk to us about what he was up to in those final days.

This comes on the heels of Graham's Memorial Services yesterday attended by all sorts of dignitaries. Some very interesting speeches there. Emily, eulogy from Trump and also from Sean Hannity. You know, and oh, yes. Explain what you're holding in your hands there. This is the funeral program. And it was, I got it if we promised to talk about how depraved Sean Hannity's eulogy was. And that seemed like a fair deal to me.

Easiest deal you've ever made. Yeah. Well done. Make you stick around because we have a little bit of sound from Hannity's eulogy. Indeed. We've also got Jasper Nathaniel. He's going to join to talk both about Netanyahu. I think this was his eighth visit to D.C. with Trump.

And he's saying it went great. There's some other indications that maybe it didn't go so great from his perspective. I don't know. We'll see what Jasper thinks about that. And then even more significantly, he's just back from a trip to the West Bank where he witnessed the ongoing pogroms there. Those pogroms have only escalated since his departure. So he's going to talk to us about what exactly is happening in the West Bank.

We've got an interesting story here about the Shopify CEO, apparently coming out against democracy. He thinks that if you don't pay income taxes, you shouldn't vote. And that the rich should get more votes than the non-eastern. rich. So it's pretty interesting ideas coming from the oligarchs these days. And then we've got a whole bunch of polls. We say Texas here because there's a poll that has Talarico up in Texas, but we've also got some really interesting data out of Wisconsin. We just interviewed yesterday, Francesca Hong, who is the frontrunner in that race. She's a DSA candidate to be the Democratic gubernatorial nominee. They had a debate last night. That was pretty interesting. And we've also got

some poll numbers that show her, Emily, just running away with that race at this point. And And it looks like data centers are really dominating voters' minds as they consider who they want to support moving into the general election in Wisconsin. So, you know, we asked her some about that yesterday. That's been a really important part of her policy platform. Yeah, no surprise there at all to hear that it's what's popping in this race. But the other Democratic candidates are woefully behind Francesca Hong on that particular issue. So you're going to want to stick around and see the facts from that race. Chris will also be doing an AMA after the show for premium subscribers.

So everybody, if you are a premium subscriber, stick around for that. If you're not, AMAs are really fun. Breaking Points.com is where you can go to support the show. That's also where you can go to sign up for the newsletter, which people have absolutely been loving. And it's very gratifying to see that people are loving the newsletter, Crystal, because I love the newsletter. It's a great place for us to drop some links in after we wrap these shows.

You can go and see, it's totally free. There's a premium version as well, but you can go and see some of the material that we're working with every single day, follow the links yourself, and get really quick summaries of the, basically of each segment that we do every day. So love in the newsletter. Yeah, exactly. If you, you know, in a place where you can't listen to a whole video, but you want to get a gist of what's going on in the world and what we talked about today, that is the way to do it. So, of course, just after we finished wrapping our Iran block, Trump had to come out and make some really wild and

provocative comments about how he will respond to Iranian attacks from yesterday. Let's take a listen to that. President Trump reacting to that Iranian attack on U.S. forces overnight in Jordan. President Trump tells Fox News about Iran, we are going to beat the effing S out of them. He went on to say, we'll be hitting them hard. They're going to get a beating. So clearly, the United States is going to respond to what the president described as a surprise attack. He says U.S. forces had just minutes to shoot down these incoming Iranian ballistic missiles. The president says he has reviewed video of the shootdown, and it was U.S. forces conducting this operation to defend that area.

He said it was real time. They were calling out coordinates and ensuring that none of this incoming Iranian fire got through. I also asked the president about those U.S. and Saudi air strikes against Iran backed Iraqi Shia militias overnight. He says those strikes were coordinated with the Iraqi government. He called these Iran-backed militias a cancer on the world and says he is considering additional warnings against Iranian proxies and their link to the Iranian regime. The president also talked about his meeting yesterday with Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu

in the Oval Office. He says it was a great meeting, adding he understands now. It appears that the relationship between President Trump and the Israeli prime minister is strengthening. And again, the president called that meeting in the Oval Great. In terms of possible talks with the Iranian regime, the president says we're going to let them keep talking. Remember, the Iranians came to President Trump after 13 straight days of U.S. bombing against Iran, asking to meet about the Strait of Hormuz and their broader nuclear ambitions. And those talks are taking place as we speak behind the scenes.

And then this surprise attack launched against U.S. forces overnight. And again, President Trump telling Fox News, we are going to beat the Fing S out of them and that U.S. strikes will take place against Iran in response to the surprise attack overnight against U.S. forces in Jordan. There you go. The president in response to Iranian attempted attacks on Jordan saying we're going to beat the effing S out of them, as they were saying, they're on Fox News. And any sign of negotiations or any idea that this was going to be a new cooling period, I think, are completely off the table, Emily.

Yeah, absolutely. And we have already lost 20 American troops in that neighborhood, in that ballpark, unfortunately. I'm not sure actually what the real number is. Crystal, I don't know if anybody has confidence in what the real number is. But there's a non-zero chance that we see more American deaths in the days to come if this escalates. As President Trump says, we're going to beat the fucking shit out of them. that is, to me, a pretty terrifying sign of escalation potentially. Now, of course, Trump likes to talk an escalatory rhetoric

and then not actually do the escalation part of the escalatory rhetoric sometimes. Sometimes he does. Sometimes he doesn't. So yet to be determined what actually happens, especially as reports mount about our munitions stockpiles and how serious of a problem that is internally at the Pentagon right now. So we'll see what actually happens. But that's, you know, the bombast you can never ignore, of course, when it's Donald Trump.

And that's kind of his point. Yeah. And, you know, the analysis from yesterday and the day before that and the day before that and the day before that stands. Okay, let's say that you do more of an air bombing campaign of the same thing, you know, type of actions that we've been taking previously. That's unlikely to change the fundamental dynamics. The other options are a ground invasion. Are you going to try to take Carg Island? Are you going to deploy a tactical nuclear weapon against pickaxe Mountain or something of that nature?

These are all terrifying scenarios that I think we have to consider still to be very much on the table. With all of that being said, let's go ahead and get to the remainder of our analysis. And so you guys can see the buildup to how we ended up at this threat from Trump and exactly what the Iranians were able to accomplish in Jordan. Hey, I'm Rubikar, the host of the podcast, Encore. Check out our brand new episodes featuring music. from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. Heated rivalry. Join me as I go behind the songs that brought Shane and Elia together.

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All right. With all that being said, let's go ahead and jump into the latest with regard to Iran here. We can put these images up on the screen. So Sentcom announced that Iran had launched an attack toward a U.S. base in Jordan. Now, they are claiming Sentcom is the U.S. is claiming that none of these missiles found their targets. There are, this is all unconfirmed, but there is some footage from the region that would seem to indicate otherwise. This is from drop site. They say Iran has launched ballistic missiles toward a U.S. base in Jordan.

Arab and Iranian telegram accounts separately reported explosions and direct impacts at that airbase. All claims remain unconfirmed purported footage shared on regional news channels is linked. So we don't know. We do know the U.S. has lied about these sorts of things in the past, Emily. So it would not be surprised if some of the missiles did get through. We also know from NBC News reporting that they've been having to ration interceptors. We know Iranian missiles and drones have found their targets in the past. So that's as much as we know about that situation.

We could put the sentcom announcement up on the screen so people can see exactly what the U.S. is saying here. They say at 5.45 p.m. Eastern time today. Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps forces launched multiple ballistic missiles from Iran in an attempted surprise attack on U.S. forces based to the Middle East. All Iranian missiles were successfully intercepted, U.S. forces remained vigilant and at a high state of readiness. Obviously, no shock that Iran would be firing missiles at U.S. assets and potential U.S. service members here. But this is a very, this is really quite significant because previously, Iran has mostly responded to provocations from the U.S. and from our regional allies. This occurred at a time when there's no ceasefire in place anymore, but there had been no exchange of fire for several days.

So for Iran to be the ones that break that lull in the action is quite notable. And I think speaks to the fact that, number one, they see the U.S. blockade. They see that, and I think justifiably so, as an active war. Number two, while Trump is running around saying, oh, they want to negotiate with us. They're begging for negotiations. You know, we're going to try to negotiate with them. What the Iranians are saying is something quite different, that they are not interested in negotiations and that any negotiations moving forward would require the U.S. to accept Iranian control over the

Strait of Hormuz, something that the U.S. at this point see as unacceptable. And so the Iranians feel that they have escalation dominance, that, you know, the U.S. is on the back foot and that the U.S. needs to feel more pain before the Iranians will be able to secure at the negotiating table the gains that they have secured on the battlefield. So I think this is quite noteworthy and also shows, you know, the destruction of the MOU, really at the hands of the U.S. undermining the terms of that MOU from the beginning is a massive missed opportunity for the U.S. because the Iranians once again have an example of, you know, you can't negotiate with these people in good faith. The hardliners who said that, you said that all along and said this is a bad idea to, we're giving up our leverage

to go into this MOU. Their hands have been strengthened. And, you know, now you're going to have a much more difficult time getting to the negotiating table and the terms that you're going to secure are going to be worse than they were when they were able to put together the MOU. It's certainly a very high possibility at this point. And meanwhile, obviously, we're going to talk about this in more depth later. Trump and Netanyahu were meeting at the White House yesterday here in Washington, D.C. And Trump called in two Fox and Friends yesterday morning. Let's go ahead first, put a three up on the screen to just head over to Iraq for a second. This is from the, so this is the U.S. and Saudi Arabia launched joint airstrikes on Iran-backed

militia targets in Iraq after more than 30. IRGC directed drone attacks over the past 72 hours per Centcom. The statement from Sentcom comes just hours after Iranian strikes targeted a U.S. base in Jordan. So you have Saudi involvement there as well. And Donald Trump before the Lindsey Graham service yesterday called. and to Fox and Friends to, well, he actually briefly got pushed on where the negotiations stand and who's actually being spoken with on the Iranian side just to give you a kind of glimpse at what seems to be or what they're willing to, what the public framing of where the negotiating

stands is, at least from the president himself. Let's take a listen. We have had some very good talks and very interesting with Lindsay. He was very much a hawk, as you would say, on Iran. And over the last few weeks, I would say that he became like, if you could make a deal, it's better making a deal in this case than just destroying the rest of the country. We've destroyed most of it, frankly. But he was somebody that said it's a good time to make a deal, nice time to make a deal. What is a good deal look like?

Now, I wouldn't say necessarily he feels that way about Ukraine. Ukraine, he's very militant about, I mean, Lindsay liked war, to be honest with you. And I said, you're a nice guy. How come you like war so much? It was a guy that liked war. I jokingly say, and there's nothing funny about it, but he's never seen a war that he didn't like. But I have some Republicans said, well, why don't we hit him harder? So, you know, at some point.

So you have a lot of competing factions. You have a group of people that wanted to be obliterated in the truest sense of the word. Then you have a group that says, this is actually a good time to make it. for them. If they don't make a deal, then I go back and I finish the job, but that's going to take them forever to rebuild. Already, it'll take them many years to ever rebuild. And I go back and finish up the job, as some people would like, with the bridges, with the, very easy, I could take out most of their bridges in less than an hour, less than an hour. And you're going to be, we hear that you're talking right now with leaders on Iran, but Iran has come out publicly and say, we're not

talking to the U.S.? Well, they just came out and said we are talking a little while ago because... So could you tell me who you talking to, Mr. President? But some reason, for some reason, we can be in the midst of a beautiful discussion and they'll come out and say, we're not talking, or we didn't discuss nuclear.

Well, that's all we discussed, because they'll never have a nuclear weapon. They understand that. Kill Meade, they're pushing Trump to say, by saying, who are you talking to? And Crystal, Trump basically glossing over that. it doesn't appear that talks are really happening in substance right now. I think that seems pretty obvious. Well, and this interview happened before the Iranian strikes on the base in Jordan.

So I think the Iranian sent a message about how exactly they feel about talks right now with this attempted or possibly successful attack in Jordan. And just on the piece from A3, let's put it back up on the screen there. This was significant, too. You know, when we had Professor Mirandi on the last time he was talking about how no one really discusses the Iraqi militias that are also allies of Iran and that in their view, they are the, you know, the most capable and most significant allied force of the Iranians. So here we have the U.S. and Saudi Arabia launching joint strikes on some of those militias in Iraq. The militias themselves are saying there were some 22 roughly fighters who were killed somewhere in that ballpark.

And this seems to be in retaliation from some of the strikes on Saudi oil refineries and Aramco facilities, some of which have had to shut down because of the successful strikes there. So let's put A5 up. Yes, that's right. We can put A5 up. We've got some of the images here. You can see satellite imagery if we put the next one up that shows the before and after of the strikes. So you can see that they were significant that damage was done, et cetera. And in any case, we've got oil going back up this morning, you know, the idea that, oh, there's going to be a lull, there's going to be new negotiations. We're going to go back to the memo of understanding. I think that's all been blown up this morning, literally and figuratively, so to speak. Yeah, that's a 400,000 barrel a day refinery.

And according to Reuters, exactly as Crystal just described, that was shut down. following an attack by Ansar al-A. Now, let's go to Oman, which presented, this is the next element, Iran with a proposal for a joint regional mechanism to manage the Strait of Hormuz with voluntary user fees, according to a Reuters report under the proposal, which reportedly has regional backing.

Iran would not exercise sole control over the waterway. Foreign ministers from the Gulf Cooperation Council countries also held a virtual meeting on the ongoing negotiations Tuesday, according to Oman. Now, again, A reminder, which our audience doesn't need, this was not on the table before the war, Crystal. Yes. This is an L for the United States, no matter what. Even if, even if Iran does not exercise sole control over the waterway. And there are voluntary user fees. That is a complete L based on where we were February 27th day before the war started.

Yeah, that's exactly right. And, you know, from the Iranian perspective, look, Trump was trying to do his typical, okay, let me stop attacking. I need the markets to open. Things are looking a little shaky on the economy. I don't want to be Herbert Hoover. Let me see what I can do to calm things down and manipulate the markets for another week and lie and say that the Iranians are begging for negotiations when they're really not. And the Iranians are basically saying, no, we're not going to let you do that. It's a different day. We are not going to wait around. for you to set the pace of attacks. We are taking control of the pace and the dynamics of the situation. So their strategy has long been that the U.S. needs to feel economic pain, that Trump needs to feel political pain with the midterms looming. And the hardliners argued in advance of the MOU that the U.S. had not yet felt sufficient pain. And with Trump immediately trying to undermine that by establishing a separate quarter,

or through the Strait of Hormuz, that sent the message that, yeah, that is correct. The U.S. and the global economy need to feel more pain, which is, you know, a terrible situation for the entire world to be in. But that is where we are. So I think this is a highly, highly significant development that now the Iranians are not waiting and just responding to U.S. or Israeli or Gulf Arab attacks, that they are actually taking the initiative and setting the pace themselves. We can put this drop site analysis of the Iranian position here.

This is according to a senior Iranian official laying out Tehran's strategy on Hormuz negotiations and the nuclear program. This is from their deputy foreign minister for legal and international affairs. They say number one, Iran says Hormuz will never return to the pre-war status quo. And if I could just pause on this particular item itself, this is really the whole ballgame. And Iran is not going to go back to negotiations based on. what we can see until this is clearly affirmed by the U.S. In the MOU, the language was left a little bit squishy.

They're not going to allow that in whatever the next agreement may be. Number two, they say Iran is prepared to keep the straight closed, even if it means war resumes and they reject restoring that southern shipping lane. That is what the U.S. was trying to establish during the MOU period. Number three, talks are only with Oman, not Washington. So they're willing to negotiate with Amman with regard to the Strait of Ramoos. They are not willing to negotiate with Washington. Number four, Iran says military pressure will not force concessions.

So no matter how much they are bombed, they are not going to move off of this position. And number five, on the nuclear file, they said Iran is effectively operating as if it were no longer an NPT member, no IAEA inspections, no declarations, all agency access suspended. He adds that Tehran is debating whether to leave the nuclear. non-proliferation treaty altogether. The other side should not think Iran will remain in the NPT forever. All options are on the table. There's something else we discussed yesterday, which is that, you know, we killed the guy, the previous Supreme Leader, who was adamantly opposed to and had issued a religious edict against developing nuclear weapons. That guy has gone. The new guy seems to be much more open to it. So on every single issue, we have set ourselves back in terms of the stated

goals of this war by starting this war on every single issue, we are further away from the stated objectives here. And, you know, I think it's a, I think it's pretty extraordinary place that we're in right at this moment where it's no longer Iran waiting to see what the U.S. does. Now the U.S. is having to respond to Iranian actions here. And the previous prospects of negotiations quickly bringing this to a close are completely off the table. It's over six months in here too. And one other thing, Emily, I saw one analyst projecting perhaps the Iranians want to make a deal before the midterms because part of their leverage is this political leverage of Trump carrying what happens in the midterms. And after the midterms are done and that cake is baked, then you

lose that piece. So that would at least give some hope that there could be some resolution, you know, around November leading into those November elections. But, you know, we still got months to go. and a lot of dismal and horrifying things could happen between now and then. Yeah, I mean, I think back to the first month of the war, where I was in a pen and pad with Senator Ron Johnson, Republican Senator Ron Johnson, who described this as a two-week bombing run. We're now six months in. The MOU has fallen apart.

And there's really no, right now there's no indication that this is going to slow even in the near future. As if to underscore Crystal's point, let's put the next element up on the screen. This is a good point made by Sina Tusi, who posts the CNN article with the headline, few ships risk straight of Hormuz crossing, and none used route promoted by the U.S. So Tusi points out, Trump restarted the war, because he wanted ships to abandon Iran's designated route through Hormuz for the U.S. backed route. Weeks later, after major escalation and Brent going back above $100, every transiting vessel is using Iran's designated route.

None, none are using the U.S. route. So hardly going according to plan, Crystal. Yeah, that's exactly right. And this is crucial because this shows you who is in control here and who is setting the pace in terms of the global markets. That's before I even talk about. Now, the disruptions in the Red Sea adding to the pressure in the global oil markets, there are some workarounds that Saudi Arabia is able to use, including a pipeline, and you do have access to the Suez Canal, although the very large cargo ships that are used typically for

transporting oil cannot fit through there. There are some workarounds to ease some of the pressure, but things are looking pretty grim. And that is a very telling indication, you know, all of the war of rhetoric aside of who is actually in control here and who is able to determine what is going to happen with the global markets. At the same time, wanted to just throw this in there because it's, I'm not quite sure what to make of it, but there's a new poll out that shows that the public is trusting Republicans at this point slightly more than Democrats on Iran, which given how dismally unpopular the Iran war is, how dismaly unpopular Trump's handling of the Iran war is, I think has to be read as a complete and utter indictment of the Democrats' ability to

formulate a coherent opposition and articulate their position. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of this. In April, according to a Washington Post-Ipsopal, the Democrats were more trusted by two points. Again, close margin, no clear leader. But look where the shift has been. If anything, the shift has been in the Republican direction. Now the Republicans and Donald Trump are trusted more by two points on a run.

So, again, over the course of the war of anything, the Republicans have been the ones that have been gaining ground, which I think just goes so opposed to all of the news coverage that we have seen so far and all of, you know, the media, you would think, hey, but no, the American people are actually trusting the Republicans and Trump, if anything more now than they were, let's say, halfway through the war. What do you think about that, Em? I don't know what to make about that, because it is so close. The swing is, you know, going from plus two, Dems to plus two Republicans.

Yeah. But you would think, I mean, just offhand, you would think it would be Democrats by 30 points, given how much everybody hates this war. But so I think it has to be the fact that the Democrats are. kind of quiet about the Iran war because a lot of them are very hawkish, you know, a lot of them sort of low-key support it. They don't have a clear-cut position. They haven't been adamant in their opposition or had a really coherent articulation. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah, that's primarily what it's boiled down to. So I think it has to be that, you know, at least the Trump has the position, although it changes day to day of whether we're annihilating them or whether we're talking to

them and we're going to be besties, you know, in the next few days. But, I also think it ties into we're going to talk later on about, you know, all the Democratic socialists who are doing really well in their elections. And it looks like there's going to be a sweep right now. You've got Abdul Al-Sayyad up on Haley Stevens. New poll came out that shows him leading significantly in that race, even in spite of the $50 million being spent against him. You got Francesca Hong, who is leading. You got Peggy Flanagan over in Minnesota, who is also leading. And I think it speaks the fact that they do have a clear.

message on Iran and is what the public wants to hear. It's part of what is giving them credibility in their campaigns as well. So this should be, I mean, not that they'll, they care, they'll listen, but this should be a warning sign to Democrats that the public really wants a fierce anti-war resistance. And if you're doing, if you're just staying silent or you're doing a little bit of process complaint so Trump's not doing this horrific war the right way, then you're really missing the vote. It takes moral clarity out of the equation if you're just making process complaints because deep down you would have supported Biden doing some level of this, probably not exactly in the same way that Donald Trump did, but process aside, the substance, the kind of end goal,

the stated end goal, at least. It does remove the measure of moral clarity that is needed to probably have a resounding level of public trust. So, yeah, it's on a silver platter right now for Democrats. And to see that poll, I think you're right, Crystal, it's interesting. that it's not like a five-point lead, an eight-point lead, little on a ten-point lead. Crazy. All right, well, let's talk a little bit more about the gentleman who was one of the most influential in pushing for this disastrous war. That is Lindsay Graham.

Hey, I'm Ruby Carr, the host of the podcast, Encore. Check out our brand new episodes featuring music from the show that everyone is reheating as we speak. Heated rivalry. Join me as I go behind the songs that brought show. Shane and Elia together. I'll tell you the stories of Fice, My Moon, My Man, wolf parades, I'll believe in anything, and tattoos all the things she said,

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Very excited to be joined now, the day after Lindsay Graham's funeral by Alex Holder, documentary filmmaker, who actually had the opportunity to follow Lindsay Graham. in the course of making this yet to be released documentary four and a half years. Is that how long you spent with him? Four and a half years, yeah. That is incredible. And we just were talking before we went to air

about how you were flying back and forth between Los Angeles and Washington, D.C. So you must have seen so much kind of through Lindsay Graham's eyes, oddly enough, over the last very consequential period in American politics, before the 2024 election even. You watched all of that through Lindsay Graham's eyes. how caught off guard were you by what happened?

I think the thing that caught me off guard the most was really the amount of access that we got, right? I mean, he was generous in that respect, which was definitely something that I wasn't expecting. I mean, I think we had intended that to be something more substantial than, you know, just sort of seeing people shake hands and that kind of thing. I think this was, it was just totally remarkable that we were going into meetings and into, you know, sort of high-level conversations that we were capturing. So that was definitely something that I wasn't expecting. But yes, I mean, the amount of things that have happened in the last four and a half years is

extraordinary, and he was at the forefront of almost all of these issues. So it was amazing to capture these moments all the way through this process. Well, we have a new clip that we can show folks here. This is the late Senator Graham talking about his work with Benjamin Netanyahu and the ICC. Let's take a look. Right. I would say just about the most down the prime minister or head of state and should say, okay, we want to review this before you do anything.

There has to be a reason. Right, the original action. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. This is a cloud or this state has to be removed and everything has to be exposed. I don't know. I tell you the perfect person would be the speakers.

The Speaker, Speaker Johnson. Speaker Johnson. No, to have to have him on the letter. Yeah, sure you're sure you would. I don't know. I won't know to try. But I will try, I promise you that. Well, a lot to talk about just based on that clip alone, because your level of access is extraordinary, clearly.

And Lindsey Graham is not just any other senator. This is a man who is a deep personal relationship with the Prime Minister of Israel in wartime and with the President of the United States. And so you are seeing foreign policy be hashed out in real time as you're taping this documentary. One thing I just want to start with, he looks diminished to me physically in that clip alone. So do you remember when that was taken and did you get a sense that maybe all of this travel, the stress of the travel, had started to wear on him before he passed? Yeah, so this particular clip, it was actually a stressful period. He was campaigning in Ohio for the upcoming presidential election. He had just come from a rally with Don Jr.

And so we were in rural Ohio. And we actually stopped off because he needed to go to the toilet. And he comes out. And we're sort of filming all the way, you know, all of this, except when he goes to the toilet. And then he says, you know, the prime minister is about to call. And, you know, honestly, we don't even know which prime minister is about to call, right? I mean, heads of state would be calling all the time. Wow.

So he says, that's probably a good TV. So, you know, he really wanted this stuff captured. It wasn't just, yeah, sort of by the, I mean, it was always by the by in the sense of there were days where, you know, we'd be filming and not that many interesting things would happen. And then there were days. And then we'd actually get quite upset because we started getting greedy. Like, you know, these things were happening quite often. But then there were times where, yeah, the Prime Minister of Israel would call.

So I think he was, you know, under pressure, but not so. maybe in the context of the election more than sort of all the traveling he was doing, later in the process, there was signs of him really being quite tired and also sort of mentally tired as well from all the things he was dealing with. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, that is interesting because it caught everybody off guard. His death obviously caught everybody off guard. But when you look back on it, it did seem like there were signs he was getting older

and he was traveling to Ukraine right before he passed and so much traveled to Israel. I want to show some clips here from the funeral. So this is president. By the way, we have the program from the funeral right here. I mentioned this earlier in the show, but somebody gave this to me on the condition that we talk about how weird Sean Hannity's eulogy was to be charitable. So we're going to take a listen to the president himself first. Let's listen to B3. This is Donald Trump at Lindsey Graham's funeral yesterday.

Heated things got in Washington virtually everyone, Republican or Democrat. liked Lindsay. Well, not everybody, but it sounds good. Not everybody. He was a tough cookie, okay? I have to be. I have to veer from this first. He was a tough cookie, darling.

But he was beautiful. Our nation needs more men and women like that great person sitting, laying, wherever he may be. I think I know where he is, and I think he's up there. I think he's watching us. I'm pretty sure of it. He was extremely hawkish, I will tell you, he never saw a war that he didn't like. Only his true friends would understand that.

All right, now let's take a listen to Fox News host, Sean Hannity, who was a close friend of Senator Graham's, and this is a bit from his eulogy. Lindsay, Mr. President, I'll argue in my mind probably has a heavenly version of Mar-a-Lago. It may even be a little bigger. He may have a little more gold in the Oval Office in his office. mansion in heaven. And I wouldn't be surprised if he added one big beautiful ballroom in an arch somewhere on the property because he would want to obviously duplicate his dearest friend in life. You, Mr. President. A couple of other quotes from the Hannity eulogy. Senator Graham was great for

ratings. He was a shameless self-promoter. Nobody ever said Lindsaygram.com more than he did. At one point turned to Tim Scott and said he always knew you had much higher poll numbers than him, but he respected that. He was happy for you, I think, is what the rest of the Hannity comment was. So just wanted to get your reaction, Alex, to what happened yesterday, having spent so much time with Lindsey Graham, what do you think he would have felt about the funeral proceedings? No big surprises, I suppose.

No, I mean, I think he probably is actually surprised that President Trump almost stayed entirely on script, which I think is actually quite unique. Right. And also surprisingly was probably actually quite a good speech, I think actually in the context of things. Maybe not the highest far to reach, I don't know. But either way, I think he was, would have been surprised by that. As to whether or not he's in Mar-a-Lago

or a great-in-Maralaga right now, I don't know. But yeah, I mean, look, you know, he was a consequential politician and incredibly controversial, complicated, and I think that his impact was enormous. And, you know, there will be lots of people who will see this documentary and see some of the very serious issues are affecting America and the world today,

him being very influential in those decisions. And there'll be some people who support those decisions. So I think, but what the documentary does is it really shows how it was all done and a real behind the scenes of this process, which I think personally is fascinating. It's funny to me that, you know, I didn't even notice that the Hannity ULGULG was that odd because I think if you followed Lindsay Graham closely, you did realize that there was a kind of shamelessness that he was comfortable with when it came to fundraising, when it came to promoting Republicans. I mean, there's this clip going around now of him at a Blake Masters fundraiser. And Blake Masters is, you know, very, very different kind of Republican from Lindsey Graham. And Lindsey Graham said, I'll support any Republican.

I just want to get him elected. And some people might look at that and say it's kind of cynical power politics. But I'm curious what your take is on this. He seemed to really believe in the Republican Party itself, which is kind of an interesting thing these days. There's so much disillusionment about the institutions. But he seemed to be a staunch believer, like in the GOP as an establishment. Absolutely.

And I think there are some moments earlier on in the documentary that we capture where you see the difficulties that he has. with the sort of old school Republican Party and this sort of new Republican Party since President Trump came into it. So I think that's pretty fascinating and that takes place in the first couple of years of us filming with him.

I think, yeah, he loved being on TV. He absolutely loved it. I mean, I was actually on Meet the Press and I was saying to the presenter there how almost on every single time he would go on TV, he would send me a text saying, I'm on Meet the Press or I'm on Fox, or I'm on Sean Hannity tonight.

And, yeah, he loved doing it. You know, we, the number of times we filmed him, going from the Senate office into this car, from the car to the studios around the corner. Sometimes he would practice what he was going to say with us. And then I sort of wised up to it. So I said, I know, we're not doing this anymore. And he goes, no, no, it's fine.

He goes, because basically you can use this and not have to buy the archive from Fox afterwards. So, you know, he's, you know, he loved it. And he loved doing, you know, saying his piece. And he really didn't, I wouldn't say he didn't care, but the criticisms he was able to sort of brush off quite easily, which I thought was also quite interesting. Well, talk to us about his relationship with Donald Trump, because I don't know that there's anybody in the Senate as close to Donald Trump as Lindsay Graham was. And it seemed to me, at least, that they had the rare type of relationship. One thing people get wrong about Donald Trump is that they think he wants you to come in there and just glaze him, say all of the nicest possible things about him, and never ever offer any pushback.

But my interpretation of their relationship is that Trump respected Lindsey Graham because he would come in and say, you know, when he disagrees with others, he's still very flattering towards the president, very flattering towards the president. But what was the nature of their relationship and maybe, you know, what people don't understand about his relationship with Trump too. So I don't give too much away. there are some really interesting moments here, but they did have a good relationship. Overall, he did respect Trump very much, but I think that respect was very much in the context of understanding that Trump is the president and pushing against him is not good for you if you want to stay in what he calls the game. So he will move wherever he needs to move to maintain his relevance and to push his agenda. The other thing I'll say that was very, very,

important was really golf. The importance of golf in their relationship was absolutely enormous. I mean, the amount of influence or the amount of things he could push towards President Trump took place on the golf course. And I think that was key in their relationship. So, you know, the number of times again, he would say that he was playing golf with Trump and he would send pictures or selfies of him playing, sometimes he'll put it on social media as well. So he, you know, he absolutely, That was the key in their relationship. We have some moments in a documentary of them speaking, and it's fascinating to hear those conversations.

But one of the things that he did with respect to Trump is sometimes he would say to try and push back against issues that he didn't agree with President Trump. He would say, well, if you do that, that's sort of what President Obama would do. Wow. And that would change his thinking in some respect. It's strategic.

Oh, absolutely. He was really, you know, again, controversial, no question, but smart at being able to push his agendas. Yeah, absolutely. Let's take a look here more. This is going to be B2. Get your reaction on the other side. Y'all should fucking pay me for all this. I should get tons of shekels. Yeah, bullshit. It's going to be more than dinner. All right, we got them both.

So they both want to do the letter. Yeah, no, I'm, so here's why I'm calling you. I'm trying to get out the door Wednesday, Washington time. So send me over whatever you want to say. They want to say two things. They want to say you should reconsider not talking to Israel. You should talk to them. And two, you should move ahead until this case.

The cloud is lifted. So slow down. No, and both of them are. Yeah. But here's what I need you. Yeah. Yeah. Now, I am.

I just want to. Yeah. But I want you tomorrow. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Just send it to me. We'll send it at first. But I do need you, if you don't mind tomorrow,

to call Blumenthal and Cardin and thank them for being fair-minded on this. And also thank them for trying to help with Saudi Israel normalization. He said he'd get me into second row. with the one else, I mean zero money. It'd be a month pay that, yeah. Alex, what did we just listen to? What was that? So that was the subsequent call that he has for the Prime Minister of Israel after essentially calling around various senators to get them to support a letter

that would support the Prime Minister of Israel in pushing against his, at the time, pending arrest warrant. I think that the arrest warrant had been issued by the prosecutor, and it was now about to be looked at by a panel of judges, and there was a judge that had resigned, another judge had come in. So it was before it was actually issued, I believe. And this was a letter to support the Prime Minister in what he felt was an unfair prosecution against him and others in Israel.

And I think what was very interesting was in the earlier call that I think we've just heard, the Prime Minister is really pushing for Democrats to be on this letter. Yes. And what I thought was very interesting during this moment was that he was calling a Republican. to help him with that, which I thought was quite interesting. And then Senator Graham and spend some time trying to find these Democrats that would support this letter. And then he has this conversation with the Prime Minister afterwards, and a little colour here, the Prime Minister is actually chairing at the time a security meeting. And this is, you know, in the midst of the Gaza

war. So he's actually being pulled out of this meeting to discuss this issue, which I think it's pretty extraordinary. Yeah. And, you know, Senator Graham would help people that he was friendly with, but it also had to coincide and align with his own goals. And Senator Graham had been pushing for a very long time a deal with Saudi Arabia and Israel, some sort of normalization deal. And, you know, Prime Minister Netanyahu was not particularly interested in prioritizing that.

So in that conversation, Senator Graham was really, he had one over the Prime Minister. He had helped him out. So now he expected something in return. The thing in return would have been, I want you to agree on effectively, you know, saying thank you to these senators. I said he was instructing the Prime Minister to say thank you to these senators or signing it, and specifically on their interest in building this normalization between Saudi and Israel. So, yeah. And then you can also hear this sort of. of the jokeyness of their friendship as well in that conversation. But yeah, I think that was a very interesting part of the behind the scenes of the

sort of diplomatic approaches that they have with each other. But in assuming, of course, that he would tell Prime Minister Netanyahu that they were being taped before these conversations? I have no idea what he did before I am. So presumably, I guess, well, it's possible that Netanyahu didn't know that he had a documentary film crew with him. I would say that's probably the case, yeah. Oh, my gosh, that's wild.

What did you learn about Washington over the course of this documentary because Senator Graham himself embodied a lot of Old Washington and people saw him as a bridge between Old Washington and New Washington. You know, he voted against Katanji Brown Jackson after voting to confirm every other Democrats' Supreme Court nominations.

And in that sense was kind of a new, it was a new chapter for Old Washington. But he was also someone who Netanyah who could call to try and get Democrats on the letter, for example. So he's an insight into the way the city itself worked and works now. What did you learn? So I think he, from what I understand, really was quite a standout in the sort of D.C. world.

He was totally wedded to the job, right? I mean, 24 hours, seven days a week. I mean, there was no respite. He was absolutely working very, very hard. I actually think he found, well, think, as in there were moments where he was really quite disappointed that his colleagues didn't spend as much time as him on these issues that he thought was incredibly important and was frustrated by this and felt under pressure. I think he was, I mean, honestly, more consequential than almost all of the other senators,

at least from what I understand in terms of his relationships with other world leaders, his relationships with President Trump. So in some respects, he was quite a unique person in Washington, D.C. And I think we will see the impact of his death with respect to some foreign policy decisions that are made in the future with that question. How was he keeping up with his correspondence? Like even just the fact that he's texting you about all of the Fox News hits that he was doing, which is a lot.

He must have been getting inundated constantly with text messages, calls. That just sounds like maybe a silly question, but it seems to me like as a United States Center, you have a massive job. That's overwhelming. And yet he's making time to text you about a Fox News hit. What did you get from just, or what did you sense the demand was on him from people trying to, you know, cut deals, talk to him? He's manipulating. He's constantly talking to media, including yourself.

What did you see just on his phone, basically? So a few things. One is that the best stuff that we actually got with him was when he's in the car or traveling. And I think that was really kind of his office, the car. The phone calls, the texts, the, the, the, he would dictate. his tweets to his staff from the car. And he was discerning, though, with his, you know, with the people he responded to, it all had to fit a particular agenda.

So if somebody was talking to him about issues that he didn't think were particularly important, a lot of the time we say some domestic issues, those would be not prioritised. And then I think also, obviously, he would prioritize the leaders that were texting him. And they were. I mean, literally, world leaders texting his mobile phone directly. Yeah. Unbelievable. For you, that just must have been a wild ride. My last question, I could keep doing this all day. But my last question is, where were you when you found out he had passed? And how did that hit you just on a personal level? It hit hard on a personal level in the sense that you are spending time with somebody for four and a half years. And it was a shock. I was in Europe, actually, when I found out. And my, my, sort of initial reaction really was actually immense sympathy to his staff. He, his staff were his family, obviously his sister, but I know we knew his staff

pretty well and I think they and I know that they were massively heartbroken by this by him passing away. So you know they took care for him over many many years. Some of his staff had been with him since they were teenagers. I mean he's had people that have worked for him for three decades. So I think that was sort of my initial reaction was how they would be. But yeah, I mean, it's, it is terribly sad when anyone dies, I think. And it was a shock. Actually, I do have one more question because you saw his security apparatus probably up close as well. And even some kind of moderates here in the United States, people who were aligned with him, very hawkish, had suspicions immediately that this must have been

a Russian operation or that it may have been a Russian operation because he had just been in Ukraine, just gotten back from Ukraine. So was there some type of espionage and some type of assassination effort? But you saw, you would have seen his security, how he traveled. What did you make of some of those concerns? And what can you tell us about how secure he was as he was traveling? I mean, I don't think there was any nefarious thing that happened with respect to death. I think that there were changes in his security, depending on the various things that were happening in the world at the time. So sometimes. So you would notice that. Yeah, absolutely. Oh, absolutely. yeah, towards actually the last few months of his life, his security actually went up because of

the various things he was saying about Iran and Russia, so specifically the Iranian threat, I believe. So I think that he was, he passed away. It was most, I would say, natural causes. And he, yeah, he worked very, very hard. And he did not really take that much care of himself. He's one of those people where, you know, eating was not as important as getting to a meeting with the Crown Prince of Saudi Arabia at 3 o'clock in the morning in a palace in Riyadh, right? Like you, you would eat afterwards. Wow. Well, Alex Holder, I'm very eager to see this. Where can people follow your work and look out for this documentary? Probably on X and maybe even on your show. Love it. Yeah, and I also have to mention Colby and Spencer, who are massive fans.

They're my producers, and they are massive fans, and they're going to be so happy that I just mentioned them. So, yeah. Well, that makes us happy. So shout out to Colby and Spencer and Alex Holder. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much. It's a pleasure. Hey, Portlandia fans.

Carrie Brownstein and Fred Armisen here. The Dream of the 90s is alive in podcast form. We're launching Podlandia, A.O. rewatch, our brand new podcast where we revisit every episode of Portlandia together, breaking down sketches, going deep on our iconic characters, and pulling back. the curtain on how it all got made. And we'll also be joined by the people who helped bring it all to life. Guest stars, collaborators, and friends, including director Jonathan Chrysall, the mayor himself, Kyle McLaughlin, legendary musician Amy Mann, and many more.

Kyle is going for it here. You fully improvised, not just words, but a song. Well, I thought you were all going to write a song. I remember you thinking that. Listen to Podlandia. A.O. Rewatch on the IHeartRadio, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What's up fam? I'm sports journalist Ari Chambers. Hey, what's up y'all? It's your girl, Sam J.

And we're the host of Everyone Watches Women's Sports, a new podcast from Together in I Heart Women's Sports. We're breaking down the biggest headlines. Naomi Osaka, showing out. Shout out to you, Naomi. The viral moments. I've been obsessed with Kashan Rock's boxing journey. She looks good. Her combos are swift. And the stories everyone's talking about across women's sports.

Because everyone watches women's sports. Listen to everyone watches women's sports on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get podcast. This is Chelsea Handler from Dear Chelsea. Every week, the news gets worse. The world gets crazier and Yamanika is here to tell whoever's responsible, you're the problem. Do you know I just found out who Sidney Sweeney was? If he got a bunch of women, then I should have a bunch of men. Do better or do less so I don't have to do so much. I'm Yamanika and I'm out. Listen to you're the problem with Yamanika on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

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