Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 7/7/25: NYT Smears Zohran, Rogan Shocked By Alligator Alcatraz, Gaza Aid Group Massacres

Episode Date: July 7, 2025

Krystal and Emily discuss NYT smears Zohran, Rogan shocked by Alligator Alcatraz, Gaza aid group head confronted on daily massacres.   Jeremy Scahill: https://x.com/jeremyscahill    To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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we have to get a little bit of Steve Bannon's take on Zoran. So much Bannon in today's show. So much Bannon. And by the way, I do want to just say, like Bannon has taken a lot of L's. So I don't want to overstate his importance, but I just, I always think it's interesting to hear his thoughts because he does have a better grasp,

I think, of the political moment than many others. Let me just say, anecdotally, someone who was recently on War Room told me like after they went on War Room, immediately they had, I think like within a couple of minutes, 100 plus new followers on X. And so Bannon has like, it's still true that your average X user is exceptional from the average American,

because not most people are on Twitter and most people aren't watching, most people are not watching Steve Bannon. But he does actually have a really, I think, strong tether to the MAGA base itself. I think the hardcore MAGA Bannon still sets the tone for them. That is not a majority of the American public, but it's a small group that he does have a lot of sway with and listens to him every day. Yeah, but I mean, usually what he uses his sway for is yeah, he'll protest in advance about, let's say Medicaid cuts, or about the tax cuts for the rich.

Trump decides. Or about Elon, and then once Trump decides and does whatever, then Bannon's role becomes explaining to the MAGA base why actually this is fine. Trust him. And why you have to trust the plan and why oh well he must have attacked Iran because he had more intelligence than we did we just have to trust this guy so that is actually the role that he serves. Nevertheless his analysis of

Zoran Pandani was a lot more interesting and intelligent than the people who are claiming that he's going to like implement Sharia law in Manhattan. Let's go ahead and take a listen to a little bit of what he had to say. That's one of the most sophisticated races and he focused on affordability and he addressed their issues. Now his response, he took the the the anger, the moment of populism and got engaged with people. Cuomo ran a traditional thing. This kid ran a very sophisticated campaign, a very sophisticated campaign on the grassroots.

And we can put the next piece up on the screen. He talked also about how the messaging was intelligent. He said that Mamdani's diagnosis of New York's affordability crisis sounds quite similar to Bannon's description of America's. The two seem to agree on 70 percent. Bannon says 50 percent, but that's still a lot. Politics today is all about authenticity. Mamdani's campaign was today's equivalent of Barack Obama's. He's walking down grocery aisles, chatting on TikTok. He accepted every interview request,

relied on grassroots organizing, Quamba name recognition. His campaign raised almost $40 million, secured Bill Clinton's endorsement. His appearances were curated. The traditional Democratic Party is dead. I wish that were true. Mamdani blew it up. I wish that were true. Mamdani blew it up.

I wish that were true. Do you share the conservative view that an unabashed socialist and supporter of the Palestinian cause is a gift to Trump? Bannon shakes his head. You shed more tears for answered prayers than unanswered prayers, he replies. Mamdani can bring people out. Populism is the future of politics." So he sees him as basically like, and I do think

that I don't want to understate actually the significance of Mamedani's victory because being able to run as an unabashed anti-Zionist in New York City and win is an earthquake. And you have a huge schism in the Democratic, between the Democratic base and Democratic elites. I do not think that most people vote on Gaza, but I do think that Gaza is becoming a litmus test issue for the Democratic base, which says to people, does this person have a shred of integrity? Are they willing to stand up against, you know, political forces or, you know, well-organized, well-funded forces and actually fight for something. And it is the sort of schism between the base

and the elite of the party that it's the sort of thing that Trump actually exploited in his 2016 victory. And I think there is going to be a real reckoning with that in 2028, not to mention, of course, the economic pieces that everyone is melting down about in the grocery stores and the rent freeze, et cetera, and the overt embrace of like,

yes, I'm a democratic socialist and that's just who I am and I'm not running away from it whatsoever. No, I think that's right. And I think what Bannon is recognizing, and again, I've seen an interesting discourse on the right about Mom Donnie since he won. Because you notice that Bannon was talking to Marjorie Taylor Greene, who posted the initial

hilarious meme of the Statue of Liberty in what, like a full burka? Is that what it, yeah. And there've been, there was this like initial reflex to just be completely grossed out, icked out by Mom Donnie, that people like Bannon started to, I think, change a bit. And you've seen, it's not like it's the whole right

is embracing Mom Donnie, but you've seen this interesting strain, and I think it's probably in part due to new media, this interesting strain of people being like, whoa, look at what he did with young voters and millennials in New York City. Shocking. We have this information right around of us. That's like a pretty clear sign

that he was speaking to something, and it's just not only a smart observation by Bannon, but I don't think it's an easy one to make right now. He can make it because he's sort of seen as like a Godfather-like figure, but not an easy point to make at all. All right, let's talk about the New York Times. So they published this big scoop

that they apparently raced to the presses because they wanted to beat Chris Ruffo. Yes. Who is also chasing down the same story. Let's put this up on the screen. They reveal exclusively that Mamdani identified as both Asian and African American on his college application to Columbia. Specifically, they they says he doesn't consider himself black but he said the application did not allow for the complexity of his background. They included the specific, you know, form and how he checked the box

showing these are the questions Columbia posed to applicants about race and ethnicity during the 2009-2010 application cycle when he applied and he indicated he was both black or African American and Asian. Okay, now little quick refresher on his background here. He was born in Uganda. He was and his family had been in Uganda for generations. There were a bunch of Indian laborers

who were brought over by the British in the early 1800s to do basically like slave labor in Uganda or indentured servitude in Uganda. And it became this thriving diaspora community that ends up being actually quite successful within Uganda. So his family is part of that history. Obviously, he's also South Asian being ethnically from the Indian subcontinent. So he marks these two boxes and they are acting like this is sort of a giant scandal. There were three reporters put on it. One of them was a health reporter, by the way, at a time when people are losing Medicaid and

hospitals or rural hospitals are under attack. This is what they're focused on. In addition, you may ask yourself, well, how did they come upon this information? Emily, where did they get this from? And we can put C3 up on the screen. They got it from this guy who posts as a Cremea. He runs a sub stack. He's also very prominent on X.

Your French is beautiful, Crystal. Thank you very much. Merci. He focuses a lot, Emily, on race and IQ. Quote unquote academic who focuses a lot on race and IQ, prominently featured post there, seeks to defend the argument that average national IQs vary by up to 40 points with countries in Europe and North America, East

Asia at the high end, countries in the global south at the low end, and several African countries purportedly having average national IQs at a level that experts associate with mental impairment. So basically, he's your sort of average Twitter racist that got ahold of these hacked documents from Columbia. Now, listen, I am not against news organizations using hacked material, even if it comes from a sketchy source. But you know who has been against that in the past?

That would be the New York Times, who refused to report on, for example, the Iranian hacks of Trump campaign documents, including the JD Vance dossier, and refused to publish it, in part, apparently, because of the source of those hacks. In addition, when they first put out this report, they really glossed over who this guy was.

They called him an academic who's opposed to affirmative action. When in reality, he's just like a brazen racist that posts like your average Twitter racist post ultimately. I didn't go back and look at his feed. Is it bad? It's exactly what you expect. Yeah. So it's also, I mean this whole story, we teased this at the beginning of the show, so many layers to peel back. The first of which is like, I think it's pretty clear that Mom Donnie was playing by the rules that we as a society set for college applications for a very long

time. Correct. Now I don't know, I mean if we're, if you're, if you're going to do and say all of these different identities are important and material to whether or not you belong academically at Columbia, I would probably disagree with a system like that. At the same time, that is the system that existed. What's actually somewhat remarkable, Crystal, is that with all of that, he didn't get into Columbia, apparently. You couldn't come up with like a bigger parody of like affirmative action system on paper than the Zora Mamdani application being like... Well, the Asian part might have

killed him. That's right! Maybe he should have left that off. So this is really a story about him being. And then if you just claim you're black, then that, you know, I mean, I think it's what he said, and I think it's reasonable. And I also think it's reasonable to say, like, you know, he was putting what he thought would be beneficial for him on a college application as one does.

But I think when he was like, these boxes don't really fit my identity. And I think that's fair. His identity is complex. He talks about it a lot. It's something his, you know, his dad is a professor of these sorts of things, and they've clearly thought deeply about it.

So I also don't think it was casually done. He sees himself as like, he is from Uganda. His family is from Uganda for multiple generations. Absolutely. He's from Edie Amin. Right, yeah, but he also has this Indian ethnic heritage. So to check both those boxes, I'm not really sure how else

he should have filled out that form. I completely agree. And I think it's the problem. I mean, so from my position on this, and I bet it would have been Rufo's position on this, I think it exposes sort of the absurdities of the critical theory that Mom Donnie and his father actually wax poetic about and believe really deeply in. At the same time, he has a much stronger claim to both of these heritages than somebody like, and I'm gonna use this as a proxy and I

know it's cringy, but Elizabeth Warren, who many such cases, like she's an example of something that's happened for decades in college admissions. And I just think it all exposes the absurdity of this and how immaterial and silly that it can be to insist that by checking off these boxes, you know a significant amount about the person based on it and you can make a determination

as to whether they belong at your school. I mean, I think it's all just absurd, but the New York Times doesn't believe what I believe. So it's like an incredibly funny anecdote, or not even an anecdote, like an experiment in them having to. It's because it's the Ramamdani. The New York Times has decided that they're going to apply a very critical lens.

You might say they're waging a jihad against him in the language of Kirsten Gillibrand. I want to jump to Curtis Lihua here, who's the Republican nominee in this race. And by the way, there's so much billionaire pressure on him. Bill Ackman is going to bat to try to get Lihua out of this race so that Eric Adams or Andrew Cuomo, I guess, who did he get behind?

Adams or Cuomo, I forgot. Anyway, one of them can consolidate and ride to victory over Zoran Mamdani. In any case, Lihua gets asked about this on Fox News, and I'm sure Fox News was expecting him to attack Zoran over this, and he did not, he chose not to do that. So let's go ahead and take a listen to C7.

I do know he is a practicing Muslim, and I've advised our colleagues, of which there are many on our side of this issue, because we know Zoran will destroy this city, do not attack his religion. Leave the religion alone. If you don't want to see him elected, there are a million Muslims in New York City who can vote, many of them with conservative values, many of them who voted for Donald Trump for president. So you can criticize-

But he's made that background the center of his campaign. Right, you can criticize him as being a communist, socialist, anti-Semite, check the back, leave the religion alone. Now, he would consider himself Southeast Asian, although he's of Indian heritage, his mother and father, he grew up in Uganda.

So I guess you could sort of put it in the blender. I don't have a problem with how he self-identified. Put it in a blender, Emily. That is to me also such a New York response. You know, and I mean, you say a lot of things about Curtis Lee Wahoo. I used to be on a bunch of Fox panels with, I told you, so I've like met him a few times in real life, but he's a New Yorker. And so he's looking at this, he's like,

don't attack him because he's Muslim and because of his identity. Like, you wanna go after him, talk about his policies and whatever, but yeah, he's from Uganda, he's Muslim, he's Indian, he's all those things, put him in the blender, however he self-identifies, whatever, who cares? How is this really the issue?

Producer Mack went viral for posting that video and saying, Sliwa just outwoke the New York Times. Yeah. It's so funny. I mean, it is a point in favor went viral for posting that video and saying, Sliwa just outwoke the New York Times. Yeah. True. So funny. I mean, it is a point in favor of the racist social construct. Well, it's a point in favor of that, absolutely. And I have always taken that as being a point in favor

of not using it as such a material, of such material importance in certain processes, like affirmative action, for example. But we don't necessarily have to have that debate. It's just funny. It's funny to see New York Times. I don't actually disagree with you on that. Let's go ahead and put, let's see,

I think the New York Times response is C5 because they clearly, their comment section was furious with them. They took a lot of heat over this. Because, I mean, think about this. They used hacked documents from a quote unquote race realist to rush out this piece. They were apparently rushing out because they were trying to beat Chris Ruffo to the punch.

Like, what are you doing? In any case, this is one of the reporters, Patrick Healy, talking about why they did. And this is so funny. He says, sometimes sources have their own motives or obtain information using means we wouldn't like. Trump's taxes, WikiLeaks or Edward Snowden. It's important to share what we can about sourcing. We always independently assess newsworthiness. Okay, you are comparing this to WikiLeaks exposure

of work crimes or Edward Snowden exposure of mass surveillance. That's what you, Zoran's Columbia application race selection. You're comparing that to WikiLeaks. And again, just to reiterate, it would be great if the New York Times had a consistent standard here.

They do not. They do not. So what is the standard, ultimately? Because apparently sometimes it matters whether it's hacked and who it comes from. And sometimes when they just, you know, wanna go after a particular candidate, then it doesn't matter and they're happy to use hacked documents who it comes from. And sometimes when they just, you know, want to go after a particular candidate, then it doesn't matter and they're happy

to use hacked documents from wherever they come. I mean, from my perspective, I can't help but enjoy this because it's a story of such little consequence. Yeah. That I just, I have to laugh my way through the entire thing. They are embarrassing. They're absolutely embarrassing.

They're a mess. Last piece I'll put up here, we've got Eric Adams grabbing onto this and a lot of people commented too. This is C8, guys, you can put up on the screen. A lot of people were noting that in the primary, Cuomo was like, Cuomo aligned Super Pack to be specific here, was like darkening Zoran's skin

and ramping up his beard to make him look scarier. And now, in the wake of this story, they're trying to lighten his skin and make him look more like, oh, he's just, basically a white guy. And so Eric Adams says, Zoran Mamdani identified as Asian African American. He's got the picture there of him checking Asian and African-American. So whatever. Yeah, there you go

It's like how you mean you just have to enjoy it. You just have to enjoy it incredible All right, let's go ahead and get to Tim Dillon and Joe Rogan So we have continued to see some concerns raised from the sort of bro So, we have continued to see some concerns raised from the sort of bro podcast sphere that had been pro-Trump leading up to his election and specifically over the issue of immigration, which to be honest with you is a little bit of a surprise to me because there are lots of things in Trump 2.0 that I think it's reasonable to have been surprised by. His aggressive approach to immigration is not one of them. They were literally holding up

mass deportation now signs at the RNC. Nevertheless, it's good to see that there are concerns being raised here, you know, with people who maybe will be influential among a large sort of more independent base. Let's go ahead and start with Tim Dillon and some of what he had to say. You're collecting people that are law-abiding, that have been in the country a very long time, that have committed no crime. You're picking people up in church parking lots at high school graduations.

It's inhumane. And I think a lot of people feel that way. But in fairness to the Trump team, they did think of this and say, what if we put them all in a prison surrounded by alligators? Would that make it feel more humane? Like I think Trump and his people were like, sure, people find these raids to be a bit abrupt and You know soulless unkind, but if

If we then took the people we swept up and put them in a prison built in an alligator swamp Would that make people feel better? It's a great way, I think, to show that it's not just a heartless policy. It's a policy that we've put a lot of thought into. So there you go, Tim Dillon's take on allocator Alcatraz. Like, oh, your policy that was already dreadfully unpopular of snatching up, like, innocent people who've been paying their taxes, been here for years and years from a Home Depot,

this'll make it better. I'm sure that will mess that we're serious about this. And he goes on a whole thing, too, about how, you know, there are many other types of deadly animals throughout the US, like, why not put them inside of a shark, literal shark tank down in the ocean with the sharks swimming around? Maybe we could get some grizzly bears involved.

So in any case, it's interesting to me, Emily, that, I mean, first of all, it's interesting to me that anyone was surprised by this direction from the Trump administration, given that you've got Stephen Miller running the show. And running the show in even more, I think he has completely taken over this portfolio, in a way even beyond what was the case in the 2016 Trump. But given the first administration, given the rhetoric on the campaign trail,

and given the explicit promises that were made that this was going to be a focus, I know Trump claimed that oh well, this will just be focused on he didn't say just be focused on criminals But he made it seem like the focus of the policy would be on a mass criminal Illegal alien population. They said first over and over again. That's what we do first Definitely not the case. Yeah, but also They projected they made it seem like the vast majority of undocumented immigrants

were in fact criminals, which is just not reality. So I think that's where they're running up against the difference between the projection of the Trump campaign and the way this was portrayed, and then the actual reality of seeing moms, dads, neighbors, people who have lived in this country and caused no problem, committed no crimes, done all the right things, even people who were actually following the process

and trying to apply for asylum and showing up for their hearings and all of those things. This is the same thing that happened really in the first Trump administration as well, where mass immigration has never been more popular than it was during the first Trump administration. Which is why then you had every 2020 Democrat running on a very pro immigration

and a very relaxed border policy. And Biden particularly talked tough about border security and all of that, but they were telegraphing, the signaling over and over again was that this would be a much more lenient and welcoming administration. And so, yeah, we should roll this Rogan clip as well because it echoes Tim Dillon. I mean, to your point, Crystal,

this is one of those political, I don't wanna say conundrums, but it is kind of a conundrum for the GOP, which the Republican base is very different from the rest of the country. The Trump base, I should say, actually, is very different from the rest of the country on the question of mass deportation. So it pulls very differently,

depending on what you're looking at. When you get it, and you've pointed this out a lot when you get into the specifics of what quote-unquote mass deportation looks like People are less supportive than when you just use the phrase mass deportation but this is really really important to the Republican base people like Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller believe that you never have the same country again if there isn't a process of mass deportations over the course of the Trump administration. And their definition of mass deportation is really undoing the entire Biden era,

which will involve basically if you wanted to take 8 million, if you wanted to deport the 8 million estimated people who came in at least during the Biden administration. First of all, that's not all illegal immigration. A lot of it was legalized by the Biden administration, which created the asylum process. And well, not created, but expanded the asylum process and made it really easy.

They did not detain people and let them into the interior of the country while their asylum hearings waited because there were so many people. And so to undo that, you're talking about tens of thousands of deportations a week. If you wanted to do it in a year, it would be like 20,000 deportations a day, at least. So it's not going to... I think they always knew it wouldn't be what the public looked like. It wouldn't be congruent with the public's expectation when you hear mass deportations.

And you see that juxtaposed with constant rhetoric about criminality and all of that, it's going to look different in practice. And they want to go further than just rolling back what happened during the Biden administration, by the way. I mean, you have, you know, memo from the DOJ talking about let's prioritize denaturalizing US citizens. I mean, that goes far beyond. You genuinely, I mean, Stephen Miller is a genuine ideologue

who wants a white ethno state. And anyone who doesn't fit his category of what an American should be, he thinks should be fair game to get out of the country. And so that is, you know, the project that they're embarking on. And as aggressive as the raids have been so far, you now also have the one big, beautiful bill

that floods ICE with resources, where they're supposed to have 10,000 ICE agents, largest federal law enforcement agency, as I said before, larger than the military budget of places like Brazil and Israel. Just a huge influx of resources, not to mention an extraordinary flooding of money to private prison contractors who will be setting up these, you know, mass detention centers. So in any case, you've already got the Tim Dillons and the Joe Rogans of the world somewhat uncomfortable with what's going on. Let's go ahead and roll what Joe Rogan had to say about this, D2.

We were told there would be no—well, there's two things that are insane. One is the targeting of migrant workers, not cartel members, not gang members, not drug dealers, just construction workers showing up in construction sites, raiding them, gardeners. Yeah. Like really? rating them gardeners yeah like really or see our Palestinian students on college campuses or not like there's a target did you see this video of this Turkish students at Tufts University that wrote an essay and then there's a video of like ice agents like another woman yeah yeah what was her essay about

it was just critical of Israel right right? Just critical of Israel. Yeah, I mean. And that's enough to get you kicked out of the country. There's a long history of anti-colonial activism in US colleges that led to South Africa changing and all of that. And I think this is a continuation of that. And Emily, it seems to me like there have been a few things that have really touched a nerve for people in the Trump 2.0 era with regard to the immigration policy.

Number one is what they were talking about there, the kidnapping of Ramesa Azturk, which happened on camera. You have these masked ICE agents. I think they were ICE agents. I don't even know what federal agency they came from, who came, multiple of them grabbed her off the street. And then lo and behold we learned. What did she do?

She wrote an op-ed for the student newspaper calling for the university to divest from Israel. Like the most basic, First Amendment protected, call to activism, you know, and she, I think the visual of seeing. And not anti-American at all. No, no. And I think the visual of seeing her And not anti-American at all. No, no. And I think the visual of seeing her

snatched off the street for that. I think that was really searing for people. Totally agree. I think Kilmar and Brago Garcia, and what happened there, he really became, as you had him and hundreds of others, swept up no due process. And the Trump administration admits

that this was, they shouldn't have done this, that this was a wrongful deportation. And yet they're so committed to keeping him in this horrific slave labor camp dungeon in El Salvador. I think that you can see in the poll numbers that the favorability of Trump on immigration really begins to decline there. And then the other thing that really touched Generve

for some reason was these Home Depot raids. And you have a moment with, reportedly, Stephen Miller goes to ICE and yells at them and says, why are you focusing on the criminals? I wanna see you go to the 7-Elevens. I wanna see you in name checks at Home Depot specifically. And then you see an escalation in the tactics. That's what also leads to the anti-ICE protests

in places like LA. But something about picking up the Home Depot day laborers really struck guys like Joe Rogan, guys like Tim Dillon, because I think it feels so familiar. These are not like, you know, the scary theoretical gang members who were out there terrorizing community. It's like, you know, Rogan has probably been to that LA Home Depot where that raid happened.

He may have used some of those day laborers for some project around his house or something. Like, it just feels so suburban and so familiar that it's impossible to caricature these guys as some like nasty menace to society in the way that the Stephen Millers and the Trumps of the world want to. Well, I was gonna say,

this is another example of where that golf is significant, because Rogan and Tim Dillon are wealthy independents. You talk to the kind of red meat Trump base, they are going to be all for Home Depot raids in the Stephen Miller. And Donald Trump is not quite on board with the Home Depot raise by the way because he's clearly been curing from the hospitality industry, construction industry and is himself... Big ag. Not big ag, not sold on what we saw from... it was like Vallejo where you had workers running through the fields when ICE was trying to make arrests and that golf is I mean it's not going anywhere because you have Stephen

Miller making this his single priority. This is Bannon's like if he would if Bannon is ranking his priorities this is probably the literal top one because they actually believe that this is like the the Jenga block that once it's pulled everything crumbles. They really see it that way and because of that Donald Trump can you know say we're gonna be lenient with hospitality workers and agricultural workers as much as he wants but if they're going to be funding a bunch more detention centers, like Alligator Alcatraz hasn't taken any money from FEMA so far, which is interesting because DeSantis did it on his own.

Now ICE has all of this money and is going to be building more detention facilities. And most of those migrants who came in during the course of the course of the Biden administration, if they are, quote unquote, criminal, it's because they of the Biden administration, if they are quote unquote criminal, it's because they crossed the border twice, for example, like they got deported and then recrossed, or they didn't go to an asylum, whatever it is, like that's what hasn't been followed. And for the average American,

they're not gonna like seeing those people rounded up and put in detention camps, let alone like shoddy ones that were constructed in a week, but the Trump base both demands it and loves it. And that's a huge political problem for the administration. Here's what I would say. Yes, the Trump base, they are not gonna complain. They're gonna delight in the alligator Alcatraz

and the Home Depot raids and the, you know, whatever Trump does, they're gonna be on board with. But whatever Trump does, they're gonna be on board with. But whatever Trump does, they're gonna be on board with. So if he wanted to moderate this policy at this point, he could, and I don't think he'd face any significant backlash from the base. There's no indication that there has ever been any significant backlash from the base

over any Trump policy. So I don't see him as, they are beholden to him. He's not beholden to them at this point. And maybe there was a different point where that was the case, but I mean, the famous like, I could shoot someone on Fifth Avenue. It's true, it's true. His base is with him, they will justify anything.

We talked about the Epstein thing, even though there's been all this online, oh my God, the Epstein, and Trump's gonna reveal it, and blah, blah, blah. Him turning on a dime and being like, ah, no client list, nothing to see here. They're going to find a way to justify it. So I don't think he's really held hostage by the base.

I think he has, I think- Well, he's held hostage to the extent that Stephen Miller is very powerful in the administration and Stephen Miller wants to do it. That's the point is I think he has outsourced this to Stephen Miller and Stephen Miller and other things as well, by the way. And Stephen Miller's running it,

and he's not really concerning himself too much with the details. And you know, feels like, okay, I ran on mass deportation, and you know, the only time he cares is when, yeah, some rich business owner calls him, and is like, my farm workers are getting rounded up, or I don't have my seasonal hospitality workers, or whatever and he'll express some concern but then you know days later He'll go back on it and Stephen Miller still doing his thing

Yeah, I think Stephen Miller is obsessed with the details of the policy But not at all concerned about the politics of it because they see this at least most no So he is as a one-term Ideologue. Yeah, they see this, at least most of them see this as a one term administration. He is the true ideologue. Yeah, they see this as the second term. Trump doesn't have to run again and that this is their last chance to walk a lot of this back, walk what happened back during the Biden administration. And just as we were talking, Crystal, Tom Holman did a gaggle at the White House and

he said that deporting 3,000 people a day is quote not enough and said for those that say 3,000 a day is too much, we have to arrest 7,000 every single day for the remainder of this administration just to catch the ones Biden released into the nation. And as we were just saying, I'm sure that math actually adds up because it was a really significant wave of immigration, the most significant since Ellis Island as Davidhardt had written for the New York Times not too long ago. So yeah, I think those numbers add up, but the only people that really, really is going to relish seeing that is the slice of the country, those hardcore diehard MAGA.

And the rest of the country, it's not as though they're just going to be like, whatever, they're going to be revolted by it. And it's going to be a huge shot in the arm for the Democratic Party and the left as they try to mobilize in opposition to Trump 2.0. But Stephen Miller understands that that's a risk that they, from his perspective, have to take. For like, to have the policy outcome

that he and Tom Homan want, the political risks they believe are well worth taking. Well, and Stephen Miller was gonna be an anti-immigrant cellate regardless of what happened during the Biden administration, how many immigrants came in, because he thinks it should be a white ethno state and he believes in, he does, he believes, I mean, even Trump, I think, has acknowledged

that Stephen Miller only wants white people here. That is his policy, and you increasingly have people like Charlie Kirk who are out and out admitting, we need to have zero immigration from the, what do you call it, the third world, which again, is just like, we don't want brown people here. So, you know, the mask is kind of off for some of these guys, and he is in control.

Like, it is his, ultimately his policy, and he is running it. You know, in terms of the, you know, the political fallout, the last point I'll make on this is is it's not just horror at what is being done to other people. It's also that when you have any federal law enforcement agency with this large of a budget who are doing things like snatching people off the street because they wrote an op-ed and who are saying they're going to prioritize denaturalizing American citizens, you very quickly realize that this thing does not stay confined even among the immigrant population, even among the naturalized citizen population. You are

constructing a mass surveillance state, a mass police state, and that will have reverberating impacts for everyone. We already have seen American citizens who got picked up and detained for hours and hours because they, you know, had the wrong, were in the wrong place and had the wrong, wrong level of melanin in their skin and look like they might be an immigrant. And even if they had their papers, they weren't believed or they weren't listened to and were detained. But the increase in the ICE budget means those things are going to be happening more and more regularly.

Palantir wants to build their big database of absolutely everyone. I mean, this is a mass operation that if the Stephen Millers of the world get their way, like I said, it's not just going to be about the way it impacts immigrants, although that part is important as we, you know, are all human beings and deserve some level of human rights and dignity. It's also going to impact everyone in this country. So I think, you know, we're kind of on the cusp of seeing that. And I think that our best, the best hope is just that there is a tremendous level of incompetence and they're not actually able to marshal the level of resources, the flooding of resources that they're being given.

I mean, that's a pretty decent bet. That's a pretty, that's a strong possibility of that. We've never seen a deportation effort on the scale in modern history. I mean, 7,000 a day for Tom Homan's point. Yes, they have a lot of money, but they also only have what, three and a half years at this point to do it. It won't be popular with the public. So it's the it's a it's an uphill uphill climb for them to be sure

that much we know. All right. Let's go ahead and get to Jeremy Scahill on Trump's meeting with Netanyahu this week. So as we mentioned a couple of times earlier, Benjamin Netanyahu is in town this week in DC to meet with Trump once again. So to analyze this and the possibility of any sort of a ceasefire deal and what's going on in Iran and all sorts of other things, we're lucky to be joined by Jeremy Scahill, of course, co-founder of DropSite News. Great to see you again, Jeremy.

Thanks for having me back. So let me just start with that question. What do you think is the consequence? What sort of things are gonna be discussed at this meeting with Netanyahu and Trump? Well, you know, of course, Donald Trump has said this is the final proposal for a Gaza ceasefire.

And what we've seen over the past week or so is a process where the Israelis have essentially been negotiating with themselves within Netanyahu's power structure on what positions they want to stake out. The proposal that Trump put forward was drafted in consultation with the Israelis, with primarily Ron Dermer, who is Netanyahu's lead official dealing with these negotiations. And Hamas for its side didn't do much in terms of revising the document,

but they did zero in on three key things that they wanted changed. And basically one of them is they want a bit stronger language from Donald Trump confirming that he will continue to force Israel to hold its fire beyond an initial 60 day period so that a permanent ceasefire can be declared. Israel has pushed back very hard on that. They want to be able to resume the military assault on Gaza after two months if Netanyahu decides that's what he wants to do. The second is that they wanted to have a

reversion to the original ceasefire agreements map positions for Israeli forces to withdraw from Gaza. Netanyahu has been saying that he wants to stay in the south of Gaza, that they want to create a zone along the Egypt border and try to force all of the Palestinians, two million plus Palestinians, into this small sliver of the Gaza Strip. And then, presumably, they think that they would then fight a guerrilla war against Hamas fighters in the rest of the Gaza Strip, and then presumably they think that they would then fight a guerrilla war against Hamas fighters in the rest of the Gaza Strip. And then the final term that Hamas wanted changed had to do, and this is the one that

I'm told this morning by Hamas officials, is most central right now in the negotiations. Hamas wants unrestricted aid to flow into Gaza, and they don't want this deadly aid scheme, cynically known as the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, to be in any way involved with the distribution of aid. So you have a delegation right now that Netanyahu grudgingly sent to Doha, Qatar. And I was told by a Hamas official this morning there's been absolutely zero progress in those talks. Another Palestinian close to the negotiations said that if Netanyahu insists on Israel controlling the aid, that it could be a deal breaker.

But all parties involved, including Hamas, know that it's irrelevant what's happening right now in Doha. All that matters is what happens between Netanyahu and Trump. If Trump decides he wants a deal, he's the only person in the world that can force Netanyahu to accept terms that he doesn't want to accept. Yeah. As it's always been. Yeah.

And you broke this down in your Dropsite report, which folks just saw up on the screen and can read and go into great depth and detail on, Jeremy. So could you also flesh out for us what some of that stronger language might look like? Because I think when I hear that, at least, I think stronger language, but what is, like, does the stronger language still leave wiggle room for Netanyahu? And would that be part of something that Trump sort of comes to the table and says,

you gotta have the stronger language, we'll agree to the stronger language, but wink, wink, that's just stronger language. It's language at the end of the day. So can you tell us a little bit more about what Hamas is looking for when it comes to the language? I mean, this is a really important question.

I think it bears repeating that Israel has constantly violated ceasefire agreements, including the agreement that Donald Trump and Joe Biden pushed through. That original January agreement wouldn't have happened without Donald Trump and Steve Witkoff, and Israel killed more than 160 Palestinians during the ceasefire. Then it unilaterally abandoned it and resumed the military assault on Gaza on March 18th.

And so as the discussions have happened, Emily, over the past couple of months since that ceasefire was blown up, Hamas has been pushing U.S. mediators. And there have been some direct talks between the United States and Hamas, something that Joe Biden wouldn't do, Trump has done. And during those talks, the Palestinians have said, you know, we hear what Donald Trump says, that he wants to end this war, and he wants it to be definitively ended. But we need to have Israel bound to that agreement. And so, you know, it may seem like it's splitting hairs, but what Hamas wants is for very clear language that states that the United States, Egypt, and Qatar, Egypt and Qatar are the regional mediators dealing with this ceasefire negotiation process, that they want them to

guarantee that while Hamas and Israel negotiate a final resolution to the Gaza war, that the terms of the 60-day initial truce are going to apply, meaning Israel will not put a blockade on aid and meaning that Israel is not going to violate the ceasefire. Hamas knows that Israel will likely violate any agreement that it signs, so they're sort of struggling to find what is the best that we can get in this situation, and they believe that by having Trump publicly state that he is going to keep Israel in check because he wants a permanent end to the war. Now, we can talk about Trump's agenda and what he wants to see happen as a result of it,

but there are indications that Trump actually does want this resolved. He also likely wants to expand the so-called Abraham Accords. He may want to make a deal with the decrepit, corrupt, unpopular leader of the Palestinian Authority. Whatever happens next, Hamas understands that it really only matters what Donald Trump wants and is willing to do right now. So that's why you see what appear to be kind of minor language changes actually meaning something to Hamas. And look, if you put the two versions next to each other, there is a big difference because they took out hedge language, they took out vague phrases like if necessary, they removed just Egypt and Qatar

being the guarantors of that and reinserted the United States. It's possible that Trump is gonna grant some concessions on this. The bigger issue really is gonna be where do Israeli troops withdraw to if a ceasefire is signed? Because Netanyahu is saying they're gonna remain there

no matter what. And then this other issue of the aid, I mean, it's an unspeakable situation right now in Gaza, and I'm told that that is actually the main issue that is being debated and discussed right now. So let's actually skip forward to talk more about that aid situation, the quote-unquote Gaza Humanitarian Foundation that has been running these aid traps and corresponding massacres. There's an interview recently with the head of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation. Now, this is the guy who replaced the original guy who stepped away after saying, I don't

think that this is a good idea anymore. This is E3, guys. Let's go ahead and play a little bit of this interview, and then I want to get Jeremy's reaction on the other side. We have spoken to doctors, British doctors, Western doctors, eyewitnesses on the scene who tell us that almost every day, they are coming under fire from Israeli forces,

trying to get to the aid point just before and as they leave. They are being fired on. What are you doing to ensure their safety? I don't think anybody knows entirely what's happened in the Gaza Strip. From our point of view, based upon our experience on the ground, we don't see the evidence of this degree of mass casualties

of this degree of mass casualties directly related to people seeking aid. Because you have absolutely zero way of verifying who's taking that aid. While we can't verify that every individual pack of flour, for instance, isn't somehow ending up in some place that it wasn't intended. What we can absolutely verify is that there is no mass diversion issue. Based on what? Because you're not verifying the people who collect the food. There is no system. Their names are not anywhere. There's no ID. And also, we have filmed your food being sold at astronomical prices on the black market. I just have a question for you Deborah. Do you have anything positive to say whatsoever

about what we're doing? We've made a decision and the decision is that it's worth operating in a war zone with all the complexity and all the risk, as deadly as it is because Gazans deserve food. And that is laudable. So my challenge to you is take us in. Let me come and see it for myself and report the good and the bad. Because if there is nothing to hide and

this process is exactly how you're explaining and you're saying it's a good process, then let us film it. Be transparent. That's not a decision I can make alone. I mean, there are lots of different aspects to that, including the diversion of resources solely dedicated to the people of Gaza. I would like to see from a few people in the press, a little less cynicism. A little less cynicism from us, Jeremy. So that was Reverend Johnny Moore, who is an evangelical leader and is now the new head of the Gaza Humanitarian Foundation, saying there are no mass casualty events, but also you can't come and see and verify for yourself. Yeah.

I mean, a couple of things. First of all, we have to understand this not as an independent entity, but as an agent of the Israeli state. That's how Netanyahu and other Israeli officials have spoken about it. And mainstream major news organizations, including NPR, the BBC, the Washington Post, have recently done exposés where American mercenaries who went to Gaza as part of this AIDS scam

actually describe the lethal actions of their own operatives. We have Palestinians that have filmed the aftermath of these shootings. We have doctors, including international doctors in Gaza, that have described the sorts of wounds and fatal wounds that they have treated in the aftermath of people desperately trying to go and get

what is actually a pittance of aid. While this clip sort of went viral and it was sort of portrayed as a gotcha moment, the journalist actually engaged in what I think is a bit of journalistic malpractice. She started questioning him about Hamas diverting the aid. Senior US officials, including the head humanitarian officer from the Biden era,

have said that there's no evidence of any significant theft of aid by Hamas. But just this morning and over the past few days, Yasser Abu Shabab, who is the head of an Israeli and Palestinian Authority-backed militia in Gaza, has openly said in Hebrew language media interviews that his forces have stolen aid to then distribute it to people that they want to give it to.

So, yes, there were really important things that came out of that interview, but also the journalist wasted so much time in her questioning based on an entirely false premise. The reality is, and I don't think anyone can dispute this, Israel has used food as a weapon of war, and the Israeli cabinet over the weekend voted to intensify the use of food as a weapon of war. And they're rejecting putting in charge a neutral independent body that had a very effective

system for distributing aid, and it was not being stolen by Hamas. That's just the fact. So Jeremy, I have to get your take on this Wall Street Journal piece from Elliott Kaufman that published over the last couple of days. This is E2. We can put it up on the screen. I mean, fascinating for a lot of reasons, especially from somebody who follows this,

even just as a student of the media coverage, like yourself, Jeremy. So, a new Palestinian offer for peace with Israel. Hebron sheiks propose to leave the Palestinian authority and join the Abraham Accords. The reaction to this peace from people in the region, Jeremy, was really fascinating. Could you tell us, first of all, what you make of the journal dropping

the story a couple of days before Netanyahu's visit and basically some of the reaction that has poured out since it was published? I mean throughout the history of Israel's occupation you've always had small clusters of Palestinians that have sort of appeared to be more pro-Israeli or maybe for their own reasons want to try to cut a deal. I mean, the reality is this is a tiny fraction of the Palestinian population that is making this offer. And it's not even clear that they speak for the entire community of Hebron.

Often when these stories come up that appear to be presenting an alternative to establish Palestinian political figures or movements that are about Palestinian liberation, they get an enormous amount of attention in the West. The reality is that this is basically a non-story on the ground in Palestine. People are concerned about the genocide in Gaza,

and they're concerned about the largest forced displacement campaign in the occupied West Bank since 1967. 15 members of Netanyahu's party, the Likud party, over the weekend wrote a letter to Netanyahu saying, now is the time to seize, to formally annex the entire territory of the occupied West Bank. These kinds of stories may be appealing to an op-ed writer in the Wall Street Journal

or fun for coffee talk among people that delude themselves into believing that somehow you can co-op the Palestinian liberation struggle. At the end of the day, the vast majority of Palestinians in poll after poll support the idea that they need an independent homeland, that it needs to be a unified one that connects both Gaza, the occupied West Bank and Jerusalem. So, you know, I think that we have to look at this through the lens of who's really promoting this story because it really we're talking about a teeny tiny fraction of the Palestinian population that is advocating for this solution.

Lastly, Jeremy, just to circle back to the meeting today with Trump and Netanyahu, they'll obviously also be discussing Iran. Tucker Carlson just dropped his interview with the president of Iran. I haven't had a chance to watch it, but I'm seeing some of the clips floating around. Apparently he got asked about the supposed Iranian sleeper cells in the U.S. He denies that and says this is just being used basically to scare Americans. He also apparently revealed claims that Israel had tried to assassinate him, which I don't think would be a big surprise to anyone. In any case, what is your understanding of what Israel's interest is with regard to Iran, what they would like to do, and what we would like to, what they

would like us to do on their behalf, and what Trump himself's orientation towards Iran is at this point. Well, I mean, I think it's pretty clear that Netanyahu wants full-scale regime change in Iran. And to his credit, even though there was a lot of speculation that Trump was going to go forward and actually assassinate the Supreme Leader, Ayatollah Khamenei, and bankroll and arm Israel as it actually enacted regime change in Iran, it doesn't seem to be, as of now, the direction that the United States wants to go in. But I think it's very likely that we will again see bombing of Iran, whether it's only Israel or Israel in the United States, remains to be seen.

But Iran time and again has defied people's declarations that the end of the government is just on the horizon. And it really speaks to the bankrupt nature of the political media in the United States that it's left to Tucker Carlson to do interviews, not just with the president of Iran, but with other figures that the United States has designated as official enemies. Anytime you get to hear the perspective of the people on the other side of American missiles, it helps to inform a society that purports to be democratic.

We should have more hearing from people that live on the other side of American missiles. And at the end of the day, whether you're a conservative or a liberal or you're, you know, a political radical of some sort, more information means a better ability to make decisions. And I think there is a fundamental question that shouldn't only belong to the MAGA movement, and that is what is fundamentally in the US interest. I would argue that none of these wars are in the US interest. And I know that there's a minority section of Trump world

that also for their own reasons, believe that same thing. We can't continue this bankrupt neocon view of the world that the United States can be a hammer in search of nails. And we certainly shouldn't be doing Israel's agenda, because what Netanyahu wants, and clearly he has a lot of support for this in Israel, is to continue setting that region on fire. What may seem to be tactical victories

right now in the short term, could well produce a generation of people that seek to oppose the United States and Israel that are far more radical than any of the forces that we now see in the region. It's born of an idea called blowback. And I think that Netanyahu can try to do his victory dance being the only leader that's been invited

three times to see Trump. But Americans should really be asking, and I see increasingly conservatives asking this question, major media figures in the conservative ecosystem are asking these questions, and I think it's important. Why is the United States doing the bidding of this rogue regime in Israel? That's a serious question that should be on the table

right now for all Americans. Jeremy Scahill, well said as always, and great to see you, sir. Thank you so much for your reporting. Thank you both. All right guys, that does it for us here today. I will be back for Breaking Points tomorrow and then we'll have actually Sagar and for Emily

on Wednesday and whatever. We're switching chairs. Yeah, absolutely. We're just keep you guys guessing out there. Thank you guys again so much for your support. We're gonna go ahead and do that AMA live now for premium subscribers. If you are not a premium subscriber,

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