Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 7/9/25: Trump Shuts Down Epstein Question, Tucker Blasts Trump On Epstein, MAGA Journo Flips On Trump AG

Episode Date: July 9, 2025

Ryan and Saagar discuss Trump loses it at Epstein question, Saagar and Tucker blast Trump on Epstein, MAGA journo revolts on Trump AG.   Liz Wheeler: https://www.youtube.com/lizwheeler   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Bro Show, Ryan Grim is actually, no, I'm in the house. I'm in your house actually. This is our house. Thank you, thank you very much for having me here on the program. It's not a cabin. Yeah, it is not a main cabin where I previously was recording with Tucker Carlson.

I didn't get to meet the dogs unfortunately, but we had a very good time. Tucker and I, we talked a lot about Jeffrey Epstein in Israel. We'll have some clips of that later on in the show. But I'm very glad to be back here after a marathon journey from New England, beautiful state. We're gonna start off talking about Jeffrey Epstein, of course, the major story in the news.

Donald Trump absolutely losing it after being asked about the cover-up by his own administration. We have a lot more details about how the government story not only doesn't add up, but is complete bullshit, I think is the polite way of saying it. We're gonna play some clips from my appearance on Tucker Carlson's show, but more importantly, we're gonna back it up from Ben Shapiro and others saying, "'Actually, the government is telling the truth.'"

Wonder what compelling interest they would have in saying that, Ryan. We're gonna talk with Liz Weigler. I'm actually very excited for this. So first of all, I love Liz. Used to go on her show all the time over a decade ago, but more importantly for our purposes, Liz was present, Ryan, at the influencer briefing

with Pam Bondi, where she was handed the Epstein files. Liz is- Binders full of women. Binders full of baloney is the way that we're talking about it now. And what interestingly about Liz is that she was there and now she's calling for Pam Bonney to be fired and is very upset about being used in that photo opportunity.

And for some of the lies that the Trump administration has propagated here. We're also gonna talk about Ukraine. Speaking of, you know, lies and other things propagated by the administration, Donald Trump has discovered a new strategy of sending more weapons to Ukraine to try and get Putin to negotiate,

if only someone had tried it before, right, Ryan? If only someone had tried it before and then run against it to say that they wouldn't do it. But we have a lot to say. We're gonna talk about tariffs. Crystal talked about this yesterday, but wow, that letter to Japan, that's something. That's maybe the kindest way of putting it.

Donald Trump has changed the deadline now. We're back to August 1st. Copper prices are up by 50%. Hope that's not a critical mineral. No, we don't use copper. Yeah, I'm hoping the copper, of course, is not in any way integral to the US supply chain. Bibi met for the second time while he's in Washington

with President Trump yesterday in negotiations over a ceasefire. Ryan, you're gonna take the lead on this one. You're gonna explain to me everything going on. I know that Jeremy has done some excellent reporting over at DropSight about Hamas and their response to the ceasefire, what some of the potential hangups are, et cetera.

And then finally, we're gonna talk about Grok. For those who aren't aware, GroK is Twitter's, or X, I apologize, I should say, X is AI, you know, LLM, which is built into the platform. And a couple of days ago, Elon Musk said GroK was too liberal, and in the span of about four days, that's all it took for it to quite literally go Nazi.

Now, people may know I'm not one to immediately just call a spade a spade, but when you're praising Adolf Hitler and talking about Jewish genetics, I think we could probably go with that. You think I'm exaggerating? Stick around for the segment and I will read it all for you.

But let's go ahead and start with Jeffrey Epstein and what is happening here with Donald Trump. I mean there's really just no way to describe it. One of the most insane responses here from Donald Trump immediately trying to shut down any questions over Jeffrey Epstein. Yesterday at a cabinet meeting, let's take a listen. Jeffrey Epstein left some lingering mysteries. One of the biggest ones is whether he ever worked for a American or foreign intelligence agency. The former labor secretary who was Miami US Attorney,

Alex Kostak, he allegedly said that he did work for an intelligence agency. So could you resolve whether or not he did? And also, could you say why there was a minute missing from the jailhouse tape on the night of the incident? Yeah, sure. Hey, could I just interrupt for a second? And also, can you say why there was a minute missing from the jailhouse tape on the native cell? Yeah, sure. Can I just interrupt for a second?

Sure. Are you still talking about Jeffrey Epstein? This guy's been talked about for years. You're asking, we have Texas, we have this, we have all of the things. And are people still talking about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. Do you want to waste the time and do you feel like answering? I don't mind answering. about this guy, this creep? That is unbelievable. Do you wanna waste the time and do you feel like answering?

I don't mind answering. I mean, I can't believe you're asking a question on Epstein at a time like this where we're having some of the greatest success and also tragedy with what happened in Texas. It just seems like a desecration, but you go ahead. It's a desecration to ask the Attorney General about Jeffrey Epstein after she released a literal lie

from the administration covering up her own comments on the White House lawn where she said, I have the client list, and now she said there's no client list and that there's no systematic blackmail campaign or anything about that. If anything, by the way, that's what an act of journalism should be.

You know, you're asked, you have the Attorney General, you're asking an appropriate question, and just look there. Trump is anxious to shut this down. My theory is that he probably knows that a lot of people who supported him are very, very upset about that. I pointed my conversation with Tucker Carlson

if you're interested, but Ryan, I mean, Trump is doing himself no favors here, Ryan, talking about trying to shut this stuff down with the prevailing theory that by Elon Musk put forward that he's actually, quote, in the Epstein files, and that's part of the reason why it's not being released, but nonetheless, I mean, it's an extraordinary thing for our president to say after he literally said

on the campaign trail, I will release those Epstein files. So what do you make of that? You could sort of see it coming though. If you remember there was one interview, you probably remember who did this. Oh, Fox News. Yeah, where they said, hey, what about the JFK files and the Epstein files?

And he said, you know what, I'm gonna do JFK. And he's like, you know what, I'm gonna do RFK senior. I'm gonna do MLK. He threw in files that he wasn't even asked about. And then they're like, what about the EPC ones? And he's like, yeah, those are a little trickier. And you could just tell from his body language and from his response that you're like, oh, yeah, this is not going to be a day one thing.

Trump, whatever you say about him, is a preternatural political talent. He has lost his touch on this point, which raises its own questions, like what happened to the guy? It's one thing to handle it the way that he's handling it, to cover up the crimes and decide he's not going to release this information, because we don't know what's in there and he might have some reasons, which we can talk about later. But to then have this panicked response, like he's Allen Iverson in that clip of talking

about practice. You're talking about practice? Don't you have Jeffrey Epstein? As if it's ridiculous. He has his finger on the pulse of the public like no politician has before. When he wants to. When he wants to. So how does he not understand that a politician chiding the public for asking about Epstein is the worst thing that you can do as a politician today?

Because it has become this point of entry for tens of millions of people into politics who don't have time to follow politics on a minute by minute basis. And so they need to form little heuristics here or there. Some have it for why they like Bernie Sanders, because he's been saying the same thing for 50 years. So it's like, OK, if Bernie says this, then I believe that. Or for whatever you have for other politicians.

For a lot of people, it's this Epstein case. It's like, what does a politician say about Epstein because if they're gonna lie to me about Epstein? Then I don't have to listen I don't have to listen to them about anything else because I know that they're just lying Obviously and they're doing it for a Despicable form of power. Yeah, and so therefore I don't want to hear anything from you for for Trump To know that he's got to know that and yet to step in in any way Raises the stakes of the other side of the argument like this like why is he doing this?

The the power behind the pressure to do what he's doing It must be just off the charts Yeah I think you're that is such an intelligent way of putting it that I hadn't even fully thought of myself. And it's part of why what we're about to show you, if you're one of those people, should be even more extraordinary and shocking. Here is the Attorney General, Pam Bondi,

actually responding to those questions about links to Israeli and US intelligence, as well as explaining away missing footage in the cameras that were, by the way, originally we were told didn't exist, now they do exist, but away missing footage in the cameras that were, by the way, originally we were told didn't exist. Now they do exist, but the missing footage is totally routine. Let's take a listen.

February, I did an interview on Fox. I was asked a question about the client list and my response was, it's sitting on my desk to be reviewed, meaning the file, along with the JFK, MLK files as well. That's what I meant by that. To the tens of thousands of video, they turned out to be child porn downloaded by that disgusting

Jeffrey Epstein. Never going to be released, never going to see the light of day. To him being an agent, I have no knowledge about that. And the minute missing from the video, and what we learned from Bureau of Prisons was every year, every night, they redo that video. It's old, from like 1999. So every night the video is reset,

and every night should have the same minute missing. So we're looking for that video to release that as well, showing that a minute is missing every night, right? So every night at the same time a minute of the footage is missing. Oh, okay But actually it's been missing since 1999 Ryan, I mean I've been ready to law there I theoretically might believe that if this were any other facility But this is one of the most secure federal lockups in the entire country

And that's part of why the The original story, of course, was that the camera footage didn't release, and also the guards were asleep, nothing to see here. This was all part of the official explanation from the administration. Now the miraculous footage has been discovered, and yet that miraculous footage doesn't show his body being brought out.

It also has this missing footage, and there's also some very sketchy stuff that comes out from this video. For example, let's play some of it so that you can take a look at what it all is. So this is allegedly the footage that is being released. You can see here with some of the timestamps and the date, all that is on it.

But guys, just flash forward then to the next image, because in the image, what you can actually see is that's what the original photo that was released. Now, you know, doesn't look all that similar to me. Now, does it? And in particular, you know, what you can see from the government cover-up now so far is that there are so many holes in their own story,

even according to their own documents. So, for example, let's put this up on the screen please. This is from Julie K. Brown. She's a great reporter by the way. She's been following this Epstein story for well over what, two decades. What she reports here is that the key cameras, quote, were not working.

The cameras showing the guards are not the same cameras as those in the Epstein wing. Look at this report, there is even a graphic because what she's saying is that the lockup video cameras were actually broken. And what she also followed up with is that there are multiple other avenues to the Epstein cell, which, of course, are not even released

here by the administration, which, by the way, in that extraordinary document said, this is it for us. We're not releasing anything else. We're done. And what she's trying to say effectively is that all of the explicit material provided by Jeffrey Epstein was basically for his own personal consumption.

Now that is literally doesn't fit at all, Ryan, with any of the previous reporting that we had from the initial raid itself, which is something that I know that you noted. Yeah, but let's put this next one up. This is A6. This is something I posted in 2019, which is a screenshot from the arrest warrant.

So the FBI was carting stuff out of his mansion here. And this is what was reported at the time. And so I highlighted this thing, this detail at the moment, Where the FBI said that they had found CDs and Jeffrey Epstein safe that were labeled young fill-in-the-blank name plus fill in the blank name So How do you square that with Child porn yes How do you square that with child porn? Yes. Because that doesn't fit that.

That doesn't fit that. And she said that there were thousands of victims. Do you remember that? She said thousands. And those are CDs. Right. He had surveillance footage all over his camera and all over his island and everywhere else,

and his plane and everywhere, every other creepy place that he goes. This is from the FBI, by the way, and people with knowledge of that investigation. Yeah, this was publicly reported back when, because in the early stages, you're gonna get more honesty from, because the FBI agents and the press are treating it like,

they treat other cases. Like, oh, as details emerge, we're gonna leak some of these details to our favorite reporters, or we'll put them in the arrest warrant before The word comes down that oh, no. No, we're not we're not doing that. So where are those CDs? Like that that is a that is a critical question those DVDs according to the FBI

Were hauled away from Epstein's possession Where are they? And what planet is that child porn? Yeah, that's right. And of course, all of this fits with the hobbies. I mean, it also is that. It would technically be that. Of course, but in many cases,

it could also feature literal blackmail. Look, some of these women were 18, 19 years old. That doesn't mean that they weren't literally trafficked against their own will and abused by Jeffrey Epstein. Exactly, and it's still very, very useful. It's very useful. I mean, really, if you just put this all together, you're watching, again, one of the most extraordinary

cover-ups I have ever seen here. And it's especially galling from the administration, which promised not to release, not just to release it, but Pam Bondi, who held this event, and we're gonna talk about this with Liz Wheeler, where she's all triumphant about releasing the Epstein files, and you know, Cash Patel, and Dan Bongino, all these guys said on camera about the extent

to which they were gonna get to the bottom of this, be a day one priority, be something that would implicate the highest levels of the American government, of the Israeli government, of the transnational elite, the richest people in the world. I mean, don't forget, even in the public record of everything we know, all those people are implicated anyways, right?

I mean, it's only that we're looking for further confirmation on this. And the cover-up here and the response by Donald Trump, by Pam Bondi and by the administration is one of the most, I mean, tone-deaf is just like a polite way of saying it at this point. It's just so indicative that they don't wanna talk about this, they want everybody to move on.

None of the information that they've released adds up at all. It's never really added up from day one. And the cover up, as you said, the heuristic through which people enter politics is just like, if you're gonna lie to me about this, I just really don't believe you on everything. It really is foundational in terms of the worldview

that has become, unfortunately, not just popular per se, but it's one that informs people's view of how much people are willing and how far they are willing to go, where they're literally covering up the sexual exploitation of children, of US intelligence, just to protect somebody. And in this case, I think a lot of us know what that is.

What's interesting as well is, Yvonne is really using this to push his so-called America party. Some of it is claiming his enemies. Let's put this on the screen. He says recently, quote, Bannon is in the Epstein files. I will say, I have not heard this particular theory before.

I do know that Michael Wolff, if you remember, wrote a book and had possession of hours of tapes between Jeffrey Epstein and Steve Bannon. I believe it was something about being prepared for some future deposition in an involvement between Bannon and Jeffrey Epstein. I'm not gonna lie to you, it is sketchy. And I do believe that Bannon has still possession of those tapes or does not yet release them, at least according to Michael Wolff.

I'm assuming he got them from somewhere, right? It's kind of interesting. And by the way, portions of those tapes have been released. So this is not speculation as to whether they exist or not. But the point remains that Elon and other, it's not even just Elon, even Democrats now at this point, mainstream media are waking up, I guess, to the story because they see this as a useful attack vector on the Trump administration. And you know what I say, even if it's opportunistic, be my guest, it's great because the more forces

that are just calling the spade a spade and this obvious farce and trying to get to the bottom of it, the better off we are. So here's CNN, they've woken up to the story. Jake Tapper, he's on it now. It only took six years, but it's okay. We're happy to have him, and here he is on CNN yesterday saying they're covering up atrova information and this is not going away.

Let's take a listen. Experts, such as our friend Julie Brown from the Miami Herald, who has been covering Epstein for years, say that the notion of Epstein having an easy to access client list is likely a red herring. And that's what the Trump administration is relying on, that while there might not be a list, there are certainly files that can be released. There's a trove of information that the Trump administration is right now refusing to share, information that could well point to the powerful folks who availed themselves of the sex trafficking victims of Jeffrey Epstein. If you go, for example, to the FBI vault online, you can

see that there are 22 files containing thousands of pages. Most of them are heavily redacted. Now sure, of course, redact the names and identifying characteristics of the victims. But why not make the victim and witness testimonies public? As Julie Brown points out, there's still so much we don't know from the investigations by US attorneys in Miami and in New York, witness interviews in the US Virgin Islands and New Mexico. Brown writes that there's still more evidence that hasn't been published, including, quote, Epstein kept video cameras in most of his residences.

And Epstein's autopsy, nor the report of the investigation into his death, has ever been made public. So while there may not be an official client list to be released, as the administration is now saying, there's a lot of extra information that is not being made public. Yes, and look, you know, well, we're happy to have you, Jake. He's not wrong in almost everything that he really said there, except for the so-called part

about how the mainstream media has never, has always been willing to go after this, which is why, of course, there's a leaked video of ABC News and Good Morning America talking about how they quashed the story to make sure that they kept all of their relations with the royal palace, but whatever. But let's just come back actually to an important point,

one I should reiterate before we get to some of my clips with Tucker Carlson. In some ways, it is a misnomer, and it's false, to say there's a client list. Nobody keeps a ledger, even the most heinous individuals who are like, took a tape of this guy and now he supports Israel. That's not how it works.

They have the tape, perhaps it was used at some point for blackmail purposes, perhaps it was never left said. It was like just put on the table and then they had a discussion. And a lot of it is implicit probably in the conversation. A lot of it may never have even been used actually with the full knowledge of what was happening. It was just simply something that was fed up the chain

and perhaps held for close purposes a lot of it though This is part of the other issue is it's not just about the so-called client list It's about what does the list tell us so what does it tell us that the former Prime Minister of Israel? A.B. Barack flew on the plane 30 times and stayed multiple nights over at his apartment with many young women present What does that tell us it's sketchy? And then we put that together with what? Oh, he was getting paid by Epstein via the Leslie Wexner Foundation, and he invested in his defense intelligence startup.

That's interesting, right? We could put those things together in the public record. We could learn a lot from the client list, probably just by looking at his calendar for who he had dinner with at various different nights and then putting that together With various different investment deals and other things. He may have been brokering Let's say Bill Gates and by various scientific funding pathways all of that fits with a loosely connected

Intelligence operation and none of it has yet been released to the public and that's the disgraceful part, right? And and it goes back to the original point of why didn't they do that? So if you're Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, or Panvani or Donald Trump, or anybody in the administration who has all your eggs, a lot of eggs in this basket, and not dropping it, smashing them all. One alternative available to you

is to produce a 150 page report that 135 pages of which is stuff that's already been reported by Vanity Fair or Julie Brown or is just out in the public record and just making some connections and putting things in subheads and where you can't draw a conclusion, you just kind of leave it as it is and say, look, this warrants further investigation.

And then 15 pages of it or so was made up of stuff that you redact from documents that hasn't been public yet. And you don't go all the way and say, OK, we have found that he was a Mossad agent or he was working for the US intelligence agencies, or whatever, you don't go all the way in there, but you could leave some smoke that there's some connections here to intelligence agencies, and it warrants further investigation,

and if we learn more, we'll tell you more. And then the podcasters and the public would just kind of feed off of that, and then the questions would keep being asked. OK, what more can we know about this? And it would end up being just this same as it is now. People would believe what they believe and would keep asking questions about it for 20 or 30 years.

But they wouldn't be blaming Trump for standing in the way of it, even though he would still be kind of standing in the way, because he could selectively hold some important stuff back. So that path was available. He didn't do that. He's trying to actually straight-up shut it down. While the Israeli prime minister is on. Just like, why are you doing this? Who are you doing this for and why? Look, again, I think again, many of us know the answer to that question, and it involves very, very high level intelligence. This is par for the course.

For a lot of the US intelligence community, which has long held up and or not prosecuted, you know, cases involving the exploitation of children just to cover up quote sources and methods and intelligence. So here's some clips of me talking about this with Tucker Carlson, let's take a listen. I think this for a bunch of reasons, it's so obvious, it is salacious, people have followed it for years. The president promised to reveal the truth about this. Bambandi, as you said, well, on television,

so if we have the truth, we're gonna give it to you. Yes. I think this is kind of, I think this is a big deal. It's a really big deal. I hope so. Well, I hope so too, actually. So let's just assess this logically. They're covering up, the DOJ,

the current DOJ under Pam Bondi is covering up crimes, very serious crimes by their own description. Why are they doing that? So there are really only two potential explanations that I can think of, maybe you've got another. The first is that Trump is involved, that Trump is on the list, that they've got tape of Trump doing something awful.

I don't believe that for two reasons. One, I've talked to Trump about it a lot, and I know him. He's not that, two reasons. One, I've talked to Trump about it a lot, and I know him. He's not that, for whatever his sins, I don't think he's that guy, actually. I don't think he likes creepy sex stuff. That's just my view. But moreover, but more, I think, convincing

is that this is all information that the Biden administration had. And if there was evidence that Trump had been involved in illegal sexual activity, you think the people who made up Russiagate wouldn't have leaked it? Come on now. So the only other explanation that I can think of,

again, maybe you've got another, is that Intel services are at the very center of the story, US and Israeli, and they're being protected. I think that seems like the most plausible. That's the most obvious. If you have a history of this, there have been multiple documented cases of pedophilia inside of the CIA perpetrated by CIA officers documented that in many of those cases, I believe over a dozen cases.

This was a Buzzfeed news piece years back where the CIA specifically did not want to prosecute those individuals in federal court for fear that they would reveal sources and methods if they were pulled into open court and they basically just made it go away. The only time they actually prosecuted somebody for child pornography was whenever he'd already being prosecuted for mishandling classified information. Well, when they want to crush you, they put kiddie porn in your computer.

It's why I don't have a computer. Don't own one. If you're an important person, you should be careful. No computer in my house. So that's the problem with this Epstein thing. The problem with the DOJ decision yesterday to cover up the crimes of Epstein, which they are doing, is that it leaves people at the very end

of their electoral options. It's like, I voted for this guy, and I'll speak for myself. I voted for this guy precisely because I'm really distressed. I want justice. I want honesty. I think secrecy abets evil. I want someone to focus on my country like all the basic things and I think Trump wants all those things too But if you when you allow something like this to happen people are like, you know what the system itself is beyond reform

There's no reasonable step I can take to improve this country or my own life. I have to do something crazy Yes, like you're creating true radicalism when you do stuff like this. And that really gets to what your analysis was there, Ryan. And I was, by the way, if anybody wants to fact check me, it's from Buzzfeed News from 2021. Put Buzzfeed aside, it's Jason Leopold, who you and I know, Ryan, one of the FISA kings.

Buzzfeed News did some serious investigative reporting. Back in the day, they actually were a powerhouse in their time, at least in some particular areas, but Jason in particular was the guy. He got FISA documents, he got declassified intelligence reports, this is all verifiable information about the previous track record that they've used, and it's really the only one that fits.

I mean, look, I would say I was probably more willing to agree with Tucker on his first point about Trump until that video that just came out, boy, that we covered, bought with Trump. And now I'm like, I don't know, man. Maybe it is something that involves you at this point. Tucker's point that you would think Democrats would have leaked it if they had something damning on Trump

is a persuasive one. Then on the other hand, you're like, well, maybe they just didn't want to open that can of worms, because what? Right, who else is in there? Bill Clinton and all of these other, I mean, at this point though, Clinton is out, he's been as president for over 30 years.

You know, it's like, what? Or sorry, 25 years, but you know, I mean, if we think about it, it's all a little bit preposterous. I did find it interesting though, is that both Tucker and I came under attack for in particular for calling out Pam Bondi, Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. Now I mean I think actually they should be held to a high there's only one Trump administration official ever who should be held to the highest standard Alex Costa the guy who was the US attorney

who let Jeffrey Epstein in a sweetheart deal who also said who said he did it who said it quote I was told he belonged to intelligence. That's a report by Vicky Ward. It's a report, by the way, that he was asked about when he was Secretary of Labor in a press conference in 2019, and he said he couldn't comment on that, and he wouldn't neither confirm nor deny.

He's had six years to correct the record, and he's just trying not to do so, okay? So, just putting that out there. But here is basically the defense of Cash Patel and Dan Bongino. Let's put this up there on the screen will chamberlain. I like will I got nothing really hard I was on the show last week. It was on the show Here's what he says not even an ounce of intellectual humility here responding to Tucker and I what if Cash Patel and Don Bongino people We all respect it enormously people Tucker interviewed are telling the truth

That doesn't mean Epstein wasn't a spy or that any of the other conspiracy theories aren't true. It just means Cash and Dan do not have any evidence of that. Why would you assume they are lying? They've gotten decades-long records of being straight shooters. Getting to the bottom of serious wrongdoing, quote, they are our guys. Now what I see in that is a perverse trust

that is taken to an extraordinary level. Here's Cash Patel using his previous reputation, right, where he said, if I had this, don't you think I would give it to you? That's what he said to Joe Rogan. So there's a presumption there that he doesn't have it, and that's part of the reason is that it doesn't exist. The other presumption of why you don't have it

is if you never go looking for it, Ryan, is if instead somebody comes to tell you and say, hey, you need to make this all go away, all right? You can say that you don't have it because we didn't give it to you, but you know, there's some stuff there, and it's troubling. What is one of the most classic Washington things

in the book is I don't wanna know, so that way if I'm ever asked about it under oath, I don't have to give any real testimony as to that case. And really why it's disgusting from Bondi, from Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, is they entered government as these renegades, who by the way, filthy rich Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, is they entered government as these renegades, who by the way, filthy rich Cash Patel and Dan Bongino, off of what?

Off of what? By talking about stuff like this, talking about the deep state and their own expertise. They were trusted and confirmed by the United States Senate and the government, put in faith by the American people, to get to the bottom of the very things like this. And so then, to not have the competence

or to at least come forward and explain exactly how you tried to get to the bottom of this and put out this bullshit letter from the attorney general after claiming otherwise while you were in office on camera in front of the South Lawn, it's just all a little bit too much for me, isn't it, Ryan? Yeah. One of the things you accuse him of lying about

in the interview I noticed was whether or not he killed himself. Yes, and that's a place where I Hold out a little bit of space because to me Everything everything about Epstein all of the conspiracies his connections to intelligence is blackmailing etc. All that could be true And he also could have killed himself because let's say he sees the life that's ahead of him. Right, but if it was only him, why did he kill himself? You're looking at a life, you're a billionaire, you could afford the best lawyers in the world,

you're looking at a life in protective custody. I'm not saying it's great life, but it's not horrible. There's counterarguments, like he was participating in his defense actively, he was friends with the president. He had reasons to think that it might not be a worst case scenario for him. On the other hand, there's reasons you could see that he might have done it.

So I would be nervous if, by putting too much of the eggs in the basket of he was killed, if there did emerge some proof that he actually killed himself, like let's say, oh, we found the video. Okay, but Ryan, if they had- Then they'd be like, see, none of this other stuff is true either. But Ryan, if they had definitive proof

that he killed himself, don't you think they would have released it? Right, yeah. Okay, let's look at the body of evidence. Now we have the government here, which is multiple different stories in the cell about how he allegedly hanged himself. Right, we don't have the autopsy.

Michael Bodden, the most famous forensic pathologist in the world says that the autopsy is not consistent, at least what's available in the autopsy, is not consistent with the person who tried to kill themself. If they had the autopsy, which proved it, then they would release it, okay? I mean, look, they're asking an extraordinary amount of trust here. So fine, go ahead and release the autopsy. Ryan, you and I have been in this game for a long time. You can use FOIA and other public records requests

to get out in cases where it's compelling interest to the American public. Yeah, it happens all the time. What are we protecting? Beyond that, Tucker made a great point. None of the other inmates on the cell block, their names have ever been released. They've all been transferred to various different prisons,

their name remain unknown to us to this day, and I can keep going in terms of the whole killed yourself thing, it's just, if you're gonna ask some extraordinary claims, you require extraordinary evidence, and all of this evidence is allegedly that you have. I mean, same, coming back to the so-called list, flight logs, ever, et cetera.

Epstein was a billionaire. Last time I checked, Ryan, billionaires have a lot of paperwork that they have to fire to. He's a tax guy. Yeah, he's a tax expert. That's why these billionaires paid him all this money, right? Well, last time I checked, you know,

you have to release all that to the IRS, all right? So every year, no matter who you are, you gotta file something, all right? And in that something, tell me. Tell me about the LLCs, tell me about the pastor entities, tell me about what was paying for this and that. And we already have so much body of information. I talked about this on the Tucker Carlson show.

I probably did, it might have been with you. We talked about this five years ago. The Department of Financial Services in the state of New York fined Deutsche Bank a lot of money for ignoring all of its own policies, and it gave us exact insight into the bank's handling of the Epstein case. The Barclay CEO lost his job, basically,

over his previous role, working with Epstein in wealth management. All of that is a paper trail, and there's a lot of names. That's the kind of thing that are information. That are put out in a hundred and fifty-fifty minutes. That's exactly what you could easily put out. You could put it out in a report. You could have subpoena power,

which the federal government has. These are serious crimes, by the way, that regulators are supposed to have compelling interest in, because we're talking about money laundering at some of the highest levels. Leon Black was worth nine billion dollars, head of the Apollo Group,

paid him $170 million for tax advice, that he later came out and said, actually his tax advice wasn't even good because it was all in the public domain. Okay, okay. I mean, yeah, I always pay people $170 million for publicly available tax advice, right? Yeah, fine.

I mean, this is the level of BS they want you to swallow. And so, you know, these are all things anybody remotely interested in the Epstein case could bring up and could talk about But Ben Shapiro has another take he says I accept I accept the word of cash I accept his word. Let's take a listen the DOJ and the FBI again run By people like Dan Bongino and cash Patel and Pam Bondi are telling you they are time. I'm not telling you They're telling you he was not murdered. He did not keep a client list and

He did not blackmail powerful figures. If you're willing to throw that over and claim they're lying, then I'd like to see you present your evidence that they are in fact lying, because I know Dan, I don't think that Dan Bagino is lying to me. I know Cash Patel a little bit, I don't think Cash Patel is lying to me. I don't think these people are lying to me. And now is the point at which the facts on the ground have changed, and so either you ought to shift your opinion based on the facts that have now emerged, or you ought to acknowledge that this was never a fact-based inquiry in the first place.

I know him and I don't think he's lying to me. Yeah, I mean, what we know about relationships between powerful people and the government and influential journalists is that they never lie to each other. Of course, yeah. So if a government official says something to a powerful person in the media

Yes, especially if they say it privately right you could take that to the bank. You could take it to the bank I mean right I've never been lied to by people in power in fact You know part of the reason I do this wouldn't lie to me make sure that they would never lie to me right? Yeah If anything I get lied to more by the people who I know who are in the government isn't that interesting? But look you could take all this for what you will. I don't know, I mean, it's, something I said on Tucker's show is the lie is not meant to actually be told

to the public. It really is just a signal to everyone in the Imperium, everybody who's involved in the scheme, we will go to the ends of the earth to protect you. I have no other conclusion that I can draw. There's no reason, it's just like the magic bullet theory. It takes one second for somebody to say, yeah, that's just not what happened.

I mean, it's just not, it just didn't happen. But the reason why it stands to this day as an explanation for the Kennedy assassination is that the alternative is just too difficult to contemplate and the magic bullet theory, it remains that idea that is perpetrated for the single reason of telling everybody involved from the CIA up and down, from the Cubans and all the anti-Castro Cubans, all the group, the mob, whatever, all any of the groups are

particularly involved in this, and to just say, don't worry about it, we will never tell the public the truth. I'm going to Dallas this Friday for the first time. Are you? I'm going to Dealing Blas. It's an OK town. No offense. I just want to see all the stuff the truth. I'm going to Dallas this Friday for the first time. Are you? I'm gonna go to Dealing Blas. It's an okay town, no offense. I wanna see all the stuff. Yeah, I mean it's a little underwhelming to be honest.

But yeah, everyone should go see it. It's an okay city. Sorry Dallas. In Dallas, come say it. Sorry Dallas, it's all right. All right, let's get to Liz Wheeler. She's standing by. We're gonna talk to her about this influencer event

and how she feels duped. Joining us now is Liz Wheeler. She is host of the Liz Wheeler show on Blaze TV. influencer event and how she feels duped. Joining us now is Liz Wheeler. She is host of the Liz Wheeler show on Blaze TV. Liz and I go way back, but for our purposes, we're here to talk to Liz about the Epstein Files, which she herself was involved in. Liz. What Epstein Files?

Exactly, that's an important point here for Liz to join us. Liz, you were unwittingly part of this event, which got a lot of attention. We can put the photo up here on the screen, shall we? Where you were coming out of the White House with some other, I guess, personalities, I guess is the best way to describe it,

where you were part of a meeting with the Attorney General, Pam Bondi, where she handed you this binder, known as the Epstein files phase one. Now it turned out later on that most of that was publicly available information. And Liz, you've since, especially since the letter released by the DOJ, been very critical of Attorney General Pam Bondi. So we wanted to give you a chance as somebody who was basically used by the White House

as part of this event to talk about this. Go ahead. Yeah, I think one of the most important things to establish is that day at the White House as part of this event to talk about this. Go ahead. Yeah. I think one of the most important things to establish is that day at the White House in late February, we were not invited there to meet with Pam Bondi. We were not invited there to be given those infamous white Epstein binders. We were actually invited as a really cool initiative on the part of the White House. They invited a bunch of new media personalities, conservative commentators, independent journalists there and told us, listen, we're not going to reward the mainstream media anymore for their propagandizing, they're lying, they're smearing. Um, we're going to

start giving access to independent figures, which means we're going to give you access today to all of the top administration officials. So we actually spent the day meeting with all the most of the cabinet secretaries and a lot of the most powerful people in the West wing from the president, the vice president and all of his staff. And it was really cool. Unfortunately, it got hijacked, which from a personal perspective is very annoying and frustrating. Also a political issue for president Trump that hasn't quite been put to bed yet. But when we did meet with Pam Bondi, it was about a 15 minute meeting. The attorney general came in, she talked to us about some of the other initiatives that the DOJ is working on.

And then towards the end of the meeting, she hands us these binders. And of course the cover sheet of that binder says the most transparent administration in history. It says phase one of the Epstein files. Our first reaction of course was, oh my goodness, what is this? She very quickly clarified that the juicy stuff, the dirty stuff wasn't in these binders. She said, when I got into office, I immediately requested the Epstein files. This is what I was given by the FBI, but I thought a hundred pages or however many,

however many pages that is, that can't be all of it. She's like, and I soon came to realize that after a whistleblower, she said, called me and told me the SDNY was hiding other documents, truckloads of documents, the real dirty stuff she told us. The real story is that the FBI is Stonewall and me, the FBI is lying to me. That's the story. And she offered that story to us to break. Now that's where things, I don't even think that's where things start to go south. One of the things that I revealed this week that I hadn't talked about before is one of the first red flags for me is the attorney general told us during that meeting that she created the cover sheet on that binder. She was bragging

about it. She said, you know, I made this, I put it in here. Look at this. Isn't this beautiful? The most transparent administration in history. And at the time I'm like, what are you talking about? Especially given the fact that it didn't contain any of the bombshells that people had come to expect from the idea of the Epstein files. Of course, we want this to be solved. We don't, we don't want someone who committed the crimes that he committed to get away with it. If there's government coverup, we need that to be exposed. It's why people have this visceral reaction to it. So that never quite sat right with me. There was of course,

then the botched embargo. The picture that you showed on the screen, I think is also important to clarify. We were never smiling about the Epstein binders. I know that's what the, the accusation on X is. And I clarified this probably five minutes after it happened. We were rushed out of the West wing. You know, when you go into the West wing, you put your phone in a secure box. You can't have technology in the West wing. So we had all of our stuff, our coats, it was the middle of winter, the files. We'd met with president Trump in the Oval Office. So we had some hats and some coins and some pens. It was really a cool experience. It's the white house for goodness sake. But the UK prime minister was set to join president Trump shortly and our meeting ran

long. He arrived early. So we were kind of rushed air unceremoniously out the back door of the white house and we unintentionally ran into a gaggle of mainstream media on the grass in the back. And you should have seen their faces, Sager. They were so bitter that we were invited into the White House that we were given access to these cabinet secretaries. That's what we were smiling about. Yeah, we were taunting them. Of course they were bitter and they deserve to be bitter.

They lied and they propagandize. So we were also giddy because we had just been in the Oval Office. We had just taken a collective vote that president Trump had asked us of which painting he should hang George Washington or Ronald Reagan. I mean, you can't help but feel a high after an experience like that. Notwithstanding the grisly crimes of the Epstein binders that was just in our arms with the rest of our stuff. Now I understand the optics of it.

And again, it frustrates and annoys me because I think some people, even on the right, allowed the mainstream media to define this story. They allowed the mainstream media to say, oh, look at these influencers smiling and dancing about these binders. Like, no, that's not what the story was. We were told we could post this stuff immediately. So we thought, okay, we need to set this record straight.

It looks bad if people believe that we're smiling about the Epstein binders. So we posted the pictures of them, say, hey, we got access to this and we're gonna give this record straight. It looks bad if people believe that we're smiling about the Epstein binders. So we posted the pictures of them say, Hey, we got access to this and we're going to give it to you. We're not gatekeeping this. But then as soon as we posted that we were told retroactively that there was an embargo on the real story, which is the SDNY coverup and on the contents of the binders, because they didn't want questions during President Trump's press conference with the UK prime minister to be hijacked by questions about Epstein.

Now that of course totally screwed us over because then it made it appear that we were engaging in gatekeeping and clickbait and lying and I cannot even tell you, and I won't because I wanna keep this show family friendly, what kind of communications, I don't wanna speak for other people, but what kind of communications, I don't want to speak for other people, but what kind of communications I was having

behind the scenes with the White House at that time. I told them in no uncertain terms, they better lift that embargo stat because what this was doing, not just to me, Sagar, I mean, I'm but a small cog in this story, but to their administration as a whole, you watch this unfold, it's like watching a train wreck. So obviously it took us a little time.

I was going to respect, I chose to respect the White House's embargo, even though I thought it was a huge mistake, beyond a mistake, a severe lapse in judgment. But by the time I posted the real story, people were already, and I understand why, angry about having seen those photos. So that's February, right?

And I was very transparent, very honest about how everything unfolded immediately. I did a lot of media in the days following, even though some people told me to hunker down, I was like, absolutely not. Like the opposite of hunkering down is gonna happen here. I'm gonna tell the exact truth about what happened. And I don't care who it reflects badly on

because I pursue the truth and that's why my audience respects me. So fast forward to this weekend, I've given attorney general Pam Bonny the benefit of the doubt. You want to give people on your side the benefit of the doubt. I thought, you know what, let's see if it's true. Let's see if the SDNY actually does have other documents. That's very believable because we know on, from sources within the intelligence community,

especially the FBI, that there's been destruction of evidence. We know from the highest ranking officials in the FBI that they have tried to, that the deep state swamp creatures in the FBI have tried to hide evidence, even from the director and the deputy director. So it's very believable that the SDNY would be hiding these documents from Pam Bundy,

especially if what we think, what the evidence leads us to believe is true about the Epstein story is true. So I give Pam Bondi the benefit of the doubt, even though she had said, I have the client list, it is on my desk. Well, then Sunday night happens and we get this memo, this unsigned weird memo. I have no reason to think it's not, it's not authentic because the white house and the department of justice didn't deny it. I think it's, this unsigned weird memo. I have no reason to think it's not authentic because the White House and the Department of Justice didn't deny it.

I think it's a real memo. And it suddenly states unequivocally a definitive pronouncement that there is no client list. There is no blackmail. Epstein killed himself. And that's, and you're not getting any other documents. Done deal, don't ask any questions, goodbye. And I'm like, what?

So suddenly I'm in a position where I cannot square Pam Bondi's behavior from back in February, bragging about this cover sheet, making the cover sheet. I asked her directly on that day, have you seen the SDNY documents? And she told me on that day in the White House, across the hall from the Oval Office, no, she had not seen those documents. So I'm left in a position thinking, I can't square her

comments and her behavior that day with this department of justice, this department of justice announcement. The only explanation that I can reasonably conclude is that she got out over her skis and that's the most generous term that I can think of. Truthfully, it appears as though she's clickthirsty, that she wanted to be a Fox News star, that she wanted to be a mega champion, and she made promises, made statements over promise and didn't deliver.

And if I'm president Trump today, I am thinking very carefully about the amount of political capital that Pam Bondi has cost me. The fact that she has become a liability to the administration because this could all have been put to bed. You and I and other people who are,

who feel strongly about learning the truth, discovering the truth about Epstein, we would have been like, okay, if the Department of Justice told us, listen, we got in here and the files are empty, we don't know what happened to the stuff, we don't know if it's destroyed or hidden. We don't have anything.

We're just being honest with you. Sure, we would have been disappointed, but we would have been like, okay, that's believable. But to have these politicians, these government officials, tell us, ignore the evidence before your eyes, and instead believe us without evidence. Sagar, there's not a politician in the world, no matter how strongly I support,

that I would extend that level of faith to. No, should you? How's your audience responding to this? Good question. My audience that I would say my regular audience is very much willing to listen. We're truth seekers, we are natural skeptics. So we're used to challenging the status quo.

I have been in this industry a long time and anybody who has ever watched me knows that I don't engage in hot takes. You make a deliberate choice at the beginning of your career, right? Whether you're going to engage in click baits, whether you're going to be deliberately bombastic and hyperbolic in order to get views and become popular.

Like I said, I've been in this business a long time and it's very clear to anybody who is analyzing it and analyzing me in good faith that I don't do that. So my audience has been pretty wonderful. They've been very interested in this story because this is, this is what I told president Trump yesterday. The reason people care about this story is not necessarily because they care about Epstein, the person himself. It's not because they care about Epstein's list itself. It's because of what it represents. We voted for President Trump because we want justice. We want justice for everything. We want justice for Russiagate.

We want justice for censorship. We want justice for January 6th. We want justice for COVID. We want justice for FBI targeting of parents and Catholics and pro-lifers. We want justice for the phony Ukraine impeachment. We want justice for all of these egregious abuses of power, the weaponization of the federal government against us. We've been hurt defending President Trump and the America First agenda that we share

with him. We have been hurt and we want justice. Justice does not mean pushing these crimes into the past and simply moving forward. Justice means accountability. And accountability means identifying the people who committed the crimes, indicting them, arresting them, and putting them on trial. And when we see the Department of Justice, again, tell us, okay, well, this Epstein case,

which a lot of people feel is foundational, a bad crime was committed, maybe politicians, rich and powerful people were involved, and so he was held to a different standard of justice. When they see this, they feel that this is injustice. They feel they are not getting justice. Combine that with the fact that Pam Bondi's Department of Justice, they've done a lot of good things.

I support many of the things that she has done. However, on these really, really pivotal issues, I mentioned a couple of them a second ago, we haven't seen the justice that we voted for. And so it really resonates deeply and viscerally with his base, many of whom are viewers of my show, that this is not the correct course for him. And Liz, you know, I saw you say, we could put this on the screen. You said it's time to fire Pam Bondi. I also saw you react. We played earlier a clip on our show

of President Trump shutting down the conversation about Epstein, and you said that this was really an issue that he's getting away from his base on. And so, you know, part of the reason we wanted to have you on the show is you were willing to speak up here about how effectively the administration, like you said, generously got over their skis. I would say they lied to your face.

And so as somebody who was basically used here by the Trump administration in this way, why do you think it's so important to try and hold them accountable? After not just what they did to you, because you are representing people who voted for Donald Trump in good faith. Some on this very issue.

Well, listen, I think the person who bears the responsibility here is Attorney General Pam Bondi. And again, I say this this very issue. Well, listen, I think the person who bears the responsibility here is Attorney General Pam Bondi. And again, I say this somewhat sorrowfully. I am a true friend of the America First agenda, which means that I'm going to tell the truth even when the truth has consequences, even when the truth is unpleasant to hear. I always say that the truest test of loyalty is whether you're willing to tell the truth when it's uncomfortable.

And constructive criticism helps sharpen the effectiveness of the administration. So that's what I'm doing right now, because this is a problem for president Trump. And it's a problem, it's an unforced error. Attorney general, Pam Bondi, should have been smart enough, should have been sharp enough. If you're the attorney general of the United States, for goodness sake, you should not simply take the word

of an anonymous phone call. If the whistleblower was anonymous, anonymous to me at least, you don't just accept the veracity of that and try to create a new story out of it in order to portray yourself as a mega champion. That means that you are at best incompetent at pursuing power, pursuing fame. That is not the right person for this job. And it didn't have to happen. She didn't have to give us those binders. She didn't have to misrepresent the truth. She didn't have to say she had the

files on her desk. She didn't have to put out this department of justice memo the way that she did. None of this had to happen the way that it did. And it's hurting president Trump. So Sager, there's a story that country singer John Rich tells about having dinner with president Trump and president Trump turning to him and say, saying, why do people boo at my rallies when I talk about the COVID vaccine? And President Trump listened when John Rich told him because people have been hurt by that jab. And I think that this is one of those moments.

President Trump is so smart. He's so strategic, he's so connected with his base. And this is a moment to listen to why the base cares about this. The base cares about this because we voted for justice and we feel that this is a canary in the coal mine of whether the department of justice is going to actually pursue it. Lat's administration, we were told Hillary Clinton, you know, lock her up and it didn't happen.

We do not want that to be repeated. And as I said, President Trump seems to be misrepresenting or not listening to his base as well as he does often in this case, but he's also very good at course correction. So I saw that video yesterday too, in the cabinet meeting, where he snapped at the report and said, why are we still talking about this? And I hope that that's not a rhetorical question for him. I hope he actually turns to someone who cares about this and says Why are people talking about this? Because when he hears the answer, I think that it will make a difference Just real quick. You said you talked to you told Trump yesterday. Did you mean just publicly or did you talk to him?

privately No, I I met on my show. I met in the various media appearances I keep private communications private out of respect until a point at which the country deserves to know. Okay. All right. Well, Liz, we appreciate you very much for joining us and for giving us some of the background on that story and we'll see you later. Thanks, Sagar. This is an iHeart podcast.