Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 8/17/23: Former MSNBC Chris Matthews WILD DEBATE With Krystal And Saagar

Episode Date: August 17, 2023

Krystal and Saagar welcome former MSNBC host Chris Matthews to the studio for a long form debate on a range of topics from Biden's job performance, 2024 horse race, Populism, Kamala's failures, his real uncensored thoughts on Bernie Sanders and more!To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey guys, Ready or Not 2024 is here, and we here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. All right, guys, we've got a special guest in the house this morning to talk to us about media and also 2024 politics. The former host of Hardball with Chris Matthews, the one and only Chris Matthews. Welcome. Thank you.

Good to see you, Sarah. Thank you. I'm here. Oh, yeah, you are. So let's start with a little bit of Biden administration stuff. What do you give him as a grade on policy? And what do you give him as a grade on politics? Well, I'm a political expert.

That's what I'm at. That's what I'm good at. And I think he's going to face a close election next year. I think 2024 is going to be even. So I'd say he should be able to carry the usual Democratic states and lose the usual Republican states and will decide the election probably in Arizona, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin, Georgia. Although I think Georgia is getting very tough for Trump right now.

Looks like the governor's a pretty good, tough, strong guy, Kemp. So you think it'll come down to the traditional states? The economy is, the numbers are really interesting. I never thought of unemployment this low. It's very low. But there's also the inflation threat. And I don't think inflation goes away when they go from, say, 9% down to something lower. I think people still feel it. And a guy complained the other day about Philly,

you know, Philly cheese, what do you call it? The cheese steak. It was the cheese itself. He was just complaining about Philly. And I think people don't like prices. They don't like the gas. And if you're a working guy or working woman, you have to travel 15 miles to go to work

You don't live nearby in some elite neighborhood. You got to travel that means gas every day. That's a tax. It's a tax Yeah, and and you don't get you don't get anything out of it. You're not getting an extra speed out of it That's you just pay a lot more for gas and I think that's real So I think we're inflation is gonna, if Trump does well, meaning if he wins, despite all the legal challenges he faces, if he wins, it'll be because of inflation. And unemployment is lower, but that only affects the unemployed or the employed. I mean, that's only a percentage. It's very good to get it low because it gets marginal people to work. I think one thing really good thing about the economy today is the people that normally wouldn't get a job are working because they've gotten brought onto the workforce by salaries. So what do you think about, from a political perspective, the idea of leaning

into this label Bidenomics, fusing his name with an economy that the overwhelming majority of people say is not working for them. Well, you know, I think that he's done some things that Trump hasn't done. Donald Trump came into office saying he was going to do infrastructure and build up the economy, build up the roads, highways, bridges, everything, and then new stuff. He didn't do it. Why didn't he do it?

That's my big question. Why didn't Trump do that? Every even demagogues like Huey Long and Hitler and people like that, they all build stuff. Building is what demagogues do. It's one way to reach the people. Why didn't he do it? So if he was so bad. No, no, that's not so bad. Biden has done this. But if he's done better on these areas, why are they tied? And then you also have, obviously, all the indictments. I mean, this man may be facing prison time by the time the election comes around. Why is it a jump ball? Isn't that a, you know, show some weakness on the Democratic side?

The other side, I think it is charisma. I think Biden may suffer from that. I don't think he has the charm that Barack Obama had or Reagan had. I think I'm writing about that now. I mean who's good on television Let's be blunt who's good on television in politics that matters Trump is good on television when he says something He doesn't reconsider his words. He says it once he doesn't say I mean it folks literally folks He just said it yeah, and and when Trump speaks it's loud And I think that's powerful stuff. And Reagan could do it.

Barack Obama could do it. Jack Kennedy could do it. Roosevelt could do it on the radio. But Biden does have that problem. He's older, too. He's 80. His problem is the gravitas doesn't come through. I think that's part of it.

A lot of this is cosmetic. And let's face it, a lot of politics is how you look, what you sound like, are you convincing? And even if the policies are good, he's got to go out and sell them. What about Kamala Harris? Do you think she's a good heir apparent for the Democratic Party? I think she'd have a hard time winning a general election on her own. Why's that? Did he make a mistake? Because I don't think that she has gone out and and

Talked to the American people, you know when you're running for office, you have to make yourself likable You have to make yourself likable and this guy did DeSantis isn't able to do that He doesn't know how to do small talk. He can't talk to kids. He can't talk to regular people A lot of people have had this problem. I mean, yeah John Kerry had this problem. I mean, John Kerry had this problem. Walter Mondale had this problem. A lot of people have come off as too official. They don't know how to talk to regular people.

W could do it like a bandit. He may have been, he took us under the wrong war, but he knew how to talk to regular people. And that talent hasn't come from the Florida governor. And Kamala, for some reason, Kamala thinks she comes off as a prosecutor. Like she's talking about people disagree with her on abortion

rights. Well, they're not wrong. I mean, they may be wrong in your thinking. You may disagree with them, but they're not evil. And that's not... And portraying it, always being on the attack doesn't make you popular. Make the list of all the popular prosecutors there are.

I mean, they're just not. Right. And I think you have to tell stories. If I were in her corner, and I used to do this for a living, I'd tell her, tell stories about growing up with a tiger mother, an Indian American mother. That must have been really tough. You had to have all As. You know what it's like. Yeah, it's tough. You can't imagine what it had to have all As. You know what it's like.

Yeah, it's tough. You can't imagine what it's like. Tell her what that's like. What's it like having a Jamaican father? What is that mixture of two cultures? What was that like? Tell us something that brings you into your life. Yeah. And everybody tells the narrative.

Bill Clinton was the best in the world. He was good. Sure. And you have to tell your story so people say, you know what? That's not quite my story, but, you know, I think it's interesting. I want to follow that person. Yeah. And she doesn't do that.

And I don't understand. I don't understand a politician who doesn't try to be liked. And I think Jack Kennedy people used to say, I've written a lot of books about him, that everybody thought he liked them. That's a talent, that people thought that he liked them. Does that come across with her, do you think? No. The American people don't think so. It doesn't really matter what I think. The American people don't even think so. Some people come off as, Michelle Obama is very popular, but she doesn't have that, she doesn't have that approving voice either. It's not, it's not common. Hillary didn't have it. It's, it's not getting people to do what you want them to do. It's getting them to like you first,

and then they might do what you want them to do. But you have to convince people, by the way, politics is simple. You have to like the person. It's just so simple. I mean, that's the first step. But, you know, to go back to- And trust them, and trust them. Yeah. And to go back to the Biden critique, isn't there more though than just, you know, the messaging or the cosmetic or his inability to convey gravitas? Well, we're asking you. I'm asking you. Well, it is good luck. Why do you have to repeat yourself? When you look at the numbers though, when you look at the numbers in terms of how people are doing economically, you do have this mixed picture.

I mean, the White House can rightly point to low unemployment rate, as you did. But when you look at the percentage of people who are food insecure, struggling to pay their bills, a trillion dollars in debt, credit card debt, we just hit that milestone as a nation. So there is real economic pain there. Well, there's people living at the age where they can't raise 300 bucks if they need to. You've seen these studies. You can't raise 300 bucks. So isn't there more to the problems for Biden and why he's tied with Trump? Well, then there's always going to be problems. When you just establishes the American condition, it's always going to be like this. Well, but that's very nihilistic. No, not nihilistic. I'll tell you, Ronald Reagan got reelected in a morning in America. What's his unemployment rate? What do you think his unemployment rate was? I don't know.

Seven. So, I mean, you can't just quantify it and say. It's not just about where people are. It's where they feel they're going. And so during the pandemic, for example, you know, there were a lot of problems. There was a lot of pain. But you also had a child tax credit that was put in place that genuinely reduced child poverty. You actually had homelessness significantly reduced because you had eviction moratoriums. You had expanded access to health care and you had actually suicides went down. Why is Trump running even in Michigan? Hold on. Hold on.

So it is possible to improve the material condition of Americans. We've seen it throughout American history. We saw it just now in the pandemic when the government wants to deliver. So to say, to throw up your hands, well, this is just the American condition of Americans. We've seen it throughout American history. We saw it just now in the pandemic when the government wants to deliver. So to say, to throw up your hands like, well, this is just the American condition. $2 billion. I don't think that's accurate. We're running $2 trillion in debt in full employment,

which is basically full employment. You can't have more expansive economic policies than that. You can't. You blow the whole thing. You did, and it worked very well for people. Where? It worked well for people where it worked well for lots of people who had more money in their bank account and where childhood poverty was much

lower well so when was this when was this during the pandemic and then you also had you know let's talk about the fdr era i mean we had a new deal that you know built out the american middle class this is the era you were growing up i, right? I know where you're coming from. Lower inequality. So these things are possible. You can't just say, oh, this is just how it is. Well, you spend more money. Yeah. Spend more money. And tax the rich.

Oh, okay. How are you going to do that? You're going to tax the rich. How do you do that? I mean, the wealthiest among us. Who runs the U.S. Congress? Who runs the U.S. Congress? The wealthy, but isn't that the part of the problem?

So what's your argument? My argument is. The. Congress? The wealthy, but isn't that part of the problem? So what's your argument? My argument is... The wealthy shouldn't be wealthy, and the Democrats should be running the Congress. Well, I guess what's your response, though? My argument is... Are you just saying this is the American condition, we can't do anything more? Right. This is stasis.

Well, I can tell you, we're running into something that's very close to more inflation. Very close. So what do you do? You bring up prices. Look, demand pull. The more money you spend, the more prices go up, right? Do we agree on that?

Yeah. No, I actually don't fully agree on that because part of what we saw coming out of the pandemic, you know, the argument was, oh, it's just because of all the big government spending because God forbid

we give working class people a little bit of money in their pockets. At the same time, increasingly we've seen a lot of the price increases were from corporations who decided they could price gouge and use the excuse of inflation to lift prices significantly. Now that was seen as a fringe theory at the time

when it was first floated, like just a bunch of lefty weirdos that think this. We now have increasing evidence that that was a big part of it. We also had, coming out of the pandemic, huge supply chain disruptions that were a real problem, and also the Ukraine war contributed to that significantly. So to just say, oh, they spent money and that's what happened, I think that's a very simplistic understanding of what was going on. All right, well. Disagree? I argue that the more government spending,

whether government or from the private sector or investment or consumer spending all that spending drives up prices All that drives it prices. You think we need to spend less If you want to have left less inflation, okay So we talked to her about inflation I want to ask you about the media I grew up kind of watching you on television this show talk to her about inflation. I want to ask you about the media. I grew up kind of watching you on television. This show, kind of our popularity and the existence of a lot of the internet has kind of been in reaction to cable news, of which you were a product of for decades. Why do you think that trust in media right now is so low? Too many voices. Too many? Too many. Oh, different

voices. You can watch Fox and you can watch MSNBC or CNN and you can watch different stories. So you just think optionality is what has reduced trust? Trust is the problem of all media because you have to give the whole picture. Like you have to talk inflation, you have to talk prices, you have to put it all together. Right. And you're trying to run an American economy that's healthy. And for example, if you talk about Hunter, why not talk about Jared? Sure. Well, we do that. No, no, no, just a minute. Who else does that?

Not very many. No, anybody. Right. Anybody. Right. So nobody talks about the holistic situation of relatives and how they might be exploiting the situation. Yeah. Well, that's a problem.

We agree. Because everybody is watching with the Wii U is right here. Okay, that's limited. So who else is doing that? Who else is doing the whole picture when they talk about things like, who's talking about inflation and the problems of the poor and everything else and homelessness

and putting it all together. And you're talking this one point of view, putting it all together. And you're talking this one point of view. Putting it all together. What happens to the average person, the middle class family that has to pay bills? When prices go up, they gotta pay. When you're retired, you don't have any income coming in. That's already there, it's fixed.

These are realities. You cannot hurt one group and say I'm helping the other. Because when you're president, you have to put it all together. In the media, I do think that if you look at who watches MSNBC and who watches CNN, and CNN had experimented with Chris Licht with going independent or rather going nonpartisan, it's a very difficult time to go nonpartisan. Because you have to say, well, I don't know whether Trump won the election in 2020.

If you want to say that, I think you're an idiot, but that's all right. You say that and you're saying I'm not going to deal with factual news. I'm not going to go with which states voted. I'm not going with how the electorates were counted, honestly. I'm going to just say, well, they're all the same. No, they're not all the same. You did a lot of this at MSNBC, too. What did I do with the finger pointing? Well, I'm just being honest. What did INBC. What did I do with the finger pointing? Well, I'm just being honest.

No, what did I do here? Well, I- What did I do? I saw you do that a lot over the years. No, I never did. Tell me what, what did I do? I mean, while you were in the chair at MSNBC, specifically during the Trump years,

I mean, you're talking about how Fox, every criticism you just gave, I mean, we're also talking about, I watched on your network, Russiagate coverage about Trump was an asset from 1987, about selective coverage of all this. I mean, do you still feel good about that coverage? Because you're talking about it.

That is a problem. The problem was that we had a lot of points where there would look like collusion with the Russians showing up all the time, Russians showing up at conventions. What are they doing at conventions? Showing up in meetings with Trump. All those issues together created the situation that looked like it

was all connected and that never was connected. That's a fact. Okay. Yeah. And so do you have any regrets about the coverage during that time or, you know? I think whenever you're following a story as it develops and you look at it developing and developing and developing and all these points seem to hit, and all the connections with Russia again and again and again, and we never got to the end of the story.

Yeah, but as a journalist, you can't just float things that are wild, like, oh, maybe it was a— No, that's not floating things. I'm not saying— Every fact we dealt with— I'm talking about the network overall. Every fact we dealt with was a fact. But we watched, you know, segments about, hey, maybe it was a Russian asset since 1987. Hey, maybe these P-tapes,

which are unverified. That was on Chris Hayes' show. Who? Jonathan Chait said that on Chris Hayes' show. On Chris Hayes' show. You know, a lot of veracity given to the alleged P-tape, etc.

You don't think the network got out beyond what the facts suggested? I think that we did what we had with what we had and we didn't have enough. Okay. And you didn't have enough. I guess I'm curious through MSNBC, now that you're on, you're outside, you're independent, with your reflections of what went wrong, you know,

you start in the 1990s on cable television, the country was a lot more united, things start to go downhill. You've said here it's optionality. I'm just, don't you think? I didn't say, I didn't say. Well, you said, you said that one of the reasons that trust in the media is low is because of the voices. You know what I'm talking about. People talking to their audience, confirming what the audience already believes. But don't you think that's what MSNBC did?

I mean, that's effectively the- Well, you're asking me about MSNBC, ask me about me. Okay, I'll ask you. I mean, you were a fixture on that network for decades. You use these terms. I was a fixture, I was a product of, I don't think these are causalities. I'm not a function of MSNBC.

No, you're an individual. I'm who I am. And I've always been who I am. And I may disagree with other people on the same network. I don't know what you're talking about, this we and us and all this thing. Let me ask a little bit specifically about the 2020 and 2016 Democratic primary coverage. Because I'm curious about how this went down. This was after I'd been let go from the network, so I don't have any insight into this era. And you would think that MSNBC being this liberal, progressive network,

overwhelmingly, and you certainly had your own point of view, that they might at least be a little bit Bernie curious, maybe a little bit, you know, inclined towards Bernie Sanders. You had this overwhelming. Who would be for Bernie Sanders? Well, I'm saying. Who was? That's what I'm saying is that there. You are. That means you are. Do you think other people should be for Bernie Sanders? Well, I'm asking why. Hold on, hold on, Chris. Hold on. Let me get to a question. No, because there's implicit answer in the question. No, but let me, I haven't even gotten to a question yet. This is a cable news network. Chris, hold on, hold on, hold on. No, but let me, I haven't even gotten to it. This is a cable news network where you're answering the question with your answer, your question. You had instead of, you know, maybe a variety of opinions or whatever,

you had an overwhelming, every single host just completely opposed it, completely contemptful of the movement or at times gripped by like sheer terror that he might win. Give me some examples. Hold on, hold on. Give me some examples. Okay, well. Do you have any names? You did float that you might be rounded up and executed in Central Park if he won. So you also made a comparison to Hitler. No, I didn't like Bernie Sanders.

You also made a comparison to Hitler. I made it very clear. I never said anything about Hitler. But what I'm. I never said anything about Hitler. Okay, there was, I believe, a Nazi comparison. No, no, I wasn't. No, no, no.

You have to answer. I didn't float it. You floated that people might be rounded up, but this is true. You might be rounded up in Central Park and executed if he was president. Okay. So as one example, but you have to say the overall tenor of the coverage of the network was very negative. Was that individuals making choices? Was that like a voice coming down from the network? Was that a problem of groupthink? It was individuals. It was all individuals. So at your time in the network.

Who would have talked to me? Your boss. We have lots of friends in this town. Yeah. You're certainly in touch with the network executives who want to have, you know, be in good with the next administration. I never got a point of view told to me

from anybody in the executive role. So it's just happenstance that every single person at the network hated this one particular candidate. I don't think the anybody in the executive role. So it's just happenstance that every single person at the network hated this one particular candidate. I don't think the hate is the right word. Looks like it from the outside. People can speak to their own view at the time. You know, I thought at the time,

just to put this back where I'm factual and accountable, I thought when Bernie was headed toward winning in New Hampshire and winning in Nevada big time, and I couldn't see even results coming in from the others, the moderates from Biden and those. And I get concerned that they've disappeared, that they weren't even there. Because in the afternoon in Nevada, we didn't have any numbers coming in from anybody but Bernie. Bernie was winning that thing in a landslide. And anybody who'd been through 1972 knew what happens when the Democratic Party

goes that far left. And if you put a person like Bernie Sanders up there, it looked to me like a rerun of 1972. McGovern. McGovern. And I saw McGovern got beaten in almost every state. And I thought it was wrong for the Democrats to do that. I thought Bernie was probably, or Elizabeth was going to win. And of course, I wasn't happy with

either one of them. Why would I be happy with people that are probably going to lose? That's your opinion. I mean, that's not what the polls were showing in terms of how he was performing in hypothetical matchups against Trump, both in 2016 and in 2020. Well, that's an argument. But you're allowed to have that opinion. That's an argument. No, that's not what the polls were showing in terms of how he was performing in hypothetical matchups against Trump, both in 2016 and in 2020. But you're allowed to have that opinion. No, it's not an opinion. But I mean, it didn't match up with the polling data. Let me tell you, though, the Democratic Party got together and they basically, Jim Clyburn in South Carolina, delivered a 70 percent victory for Biden. That was enough to convince the others like Mike Bloomberg and Amy Klobuchar and Pete Buttigieg to withdraw because they saw for whatever reason, they saw this heading and there's only one candidate that could win. Yeah. But don't you think the media played a part

in also convincing people like this is the guy that can win, Joe Biden is the one? If the media controlled it, Mario Cuomo would be president. You don't think you had any impact? The media has had favorites forever. General Powell, we've had a lot of favorites and they've gone nowhere. And you don't think it mattered? The other way. Okay. You were at a network and your show was beloved by many Democratic primary voters. You don't think you had any influence amongst those voters?

It was pretty clear that I wasn't. I mean, I think the people, I thought the people around me were probably with Bernie. I don't think there was an animosity. It's not interesting. It's true. You thought the people around you were with Bernie? Like at the network group? Or do you mean the people who watch your show? I thought there was an ambivalence about Bernie winning and a sense of this is fine. That's all. No more than that.

And I said, and I was the one, heart stricken that this is going to be a big defeat. And I think you're wrong about thinking that the middle class of the United States who run elections basically, we're not going to like Bernie. But why do you assert that so confidently? First of all, he called himself a socialist, which is not going to sell anywhere. I actually agree with you that the label was not- No, no, it wasn't label. It was his name. It's what he said. But Chris, when you look at what he actually supported, things like healthcare for all, those are popular things, right? Living wage,

$15 minimum wage, that's very popular. In fact, the student debt cancellation is something that Biden has picked up and is moving forward with too. These things are all very popular. I thought they were very popular in Vermont and I think he's very popular winning elections up there and I don't think it would have sold with the country. I have a question about you specifically. So you've kind of lionized like bipartisan politics. You've written books about it, Tipper and Reagan. I'm curious, do you think then, you know, we're talking here about Trump and Bernie. Don't you think those are kind of indictments of those type of politics, the bipartisan kind of the lionization of that, of the policies? Lionization?

Yeah. Did you read my book? No, I didn't read it. Okay. So you're talking about what? I've seen the title of it. What are you talking about? I'm talking about the neoliberal era.

I'm talking about neoliberalism. Where do you think that the populist energy around Bernie and Trump both came from? What is this in response to? And to me, it seems to respond to... I think a lot of people are not happy, generally speaking. They don't...

I think there's a lot of animus about power, about intellectuals or people running the show. Is that justified? And I think there's a lot of anger in working people about the Democratic Party. Do you think it's justified? I think there's, anybody that looks down on other people has a problem, it's creating a problem. And you think there are elements, at least the Democratic Party, that looks down on other people has a problem. It's creating a problem. And you think there are elements, at least the Democratic Party, that look down on people?

What do you think? I think so, but I'm curious to hear your view. I think so, too. Well, I guess it comes back to then, how do we get out of this? Well, look, if you want to get a really good socialist newspaper, I haven't read it. So let's find one. Okay. Because there isn't one. Because that's what Bernie's pushing. Big government role, a lot of government responsibility, a lot of government taking roles. I mean, Bernie at this point is basically a loyal soldier for Joe Biden. The Bernie threat is completely neutralized to the extent that it ever existed. Would you say that's true? Well, you say things, and then I've got to think about whether that's true or not.

No, that's fine. We're all hearing it. He's neutralized it. I think he's been—he and Biden, I think, are on the phone a lot. Yeah. I think he supported Biden. I think he knew that Biden was the one that could win. And I think he saw him winning the Democratic Party.

And I think the—maybe he has a sense of history. I don't know. Bernie ran sort of wild liberal left-wing politics up in the Red Room and finally beat the Democratic Party. He never joined the Democratic Party. Biden's head of the Democratic Party. He has a different role. Democrats are not socialists. They're like Roosevelt. They believe in a little more government in places like Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid.

But those issues have all been joined by Trump. Trump completely agrees with leaving Social Security alone. He leaves Medicare, Medicaid alone. He is going completely against the Republican thinking about fiscal austerity. The Democrats have gotten in. I just read this piece about new monetary policy, I think it's wacky. They just spend all you want and print the money.

It's in the paper today, Robert Zoellick. Print all the money you want and just spend it. Biden and the student loan thing, print the money and I'll give it to you. I'm just, where'd the money come from? Where'd the money come from? Where did the money come from? Well, I'm curious, what do you think-

Market rates, students' bar tomorrow rate, market rates. What are the best and worst things that Biden has done as president, in your view? He won. Uh-huh. That was the best? See, that's sarcastic. No, that's a cheat, that's fine.

I think infrastructure was important. I think he should have done a bigger infrastructure bill. Okay. I think, although it may inflate the economy again, I think next year could be very bad for the economy with inflation. And that hurts everybody. You talk about spending more money, and you have the goals for spending, but every time you spend, you're more money and you have the goals for spending, but every time

you spend, you're taking money and inflating prices. It's just going to be, you can talk all you want about getting rid of inflation. It's never going away as long as the money's being spent. So what about the worst? What are the worst things Biden did as president? You mentioned student loan. I think there's an old rule of Churchill's that you never promise something you can't deliver. Don't say you can give people freedom Free them from student loan debt. It's their debt. They paid them. They made the decision They're getting their career opportunities out of it The people in the middle and the United States the middle class and the working class in Pennsylvania who don't go to college It's the majority people they're not going to get those benefits and yet you're taking them from them and saying oh

I'm gonna just inflate the economy. I'm just going to create more money, drive all the prices up to pay for student loans. Well, that was irresponsible because he couldn't do it constitutionally. He had no right to do that. The courts are not going to back him on this. I mean, they've already vacated in people's payments are going to be resuming very soon. Some commentators we've seen out there have been floating that we're on the verge of a civil war. You love history.

No, let me do it. I'm going to go back to you because this argument about you've got to spend more money, $2 trillion over full employment. We've pushed down on employment as low as it's ever been able to do. This is the hardest we can ever do in terms of expansionism and social programming and everything that Biden's done. He's probably as left as you could go. Oh, yes. I mildly disagree. I mean, mildly disagree. The beginning of the premise that we live in a country we don't live in. No, no, no. The beginning of the administration, there was significant programs and relief. There were checks that were cut. There were pandemic era programs.

All of that has been stripped away over the course of the Biden administration. I mean, student debt payments are set to restart. Yeah, they were for the COVID. For COVID-19. They were for COVID-19. Everything that was done during that period was stripped away. So to talk, the story of the Biden administration has actually been cutting social spending over the course of administration, which is why I would argue he's in such a difficult place in terms of electorally, because people's experience have been, you know, I was doing OK. And now, you know, all of these things that were helping me, including, I think, the child tax credit is a perfect example. Those things have gone away. I do think inflation is an important part of that story. I just disagree with the

totality of the causes of inflation. But I think that that's the issue. But, you know, the question- You disagree that when prices go up, it's because more money is being spent. I don't think that's the whole thing that's going on. That is economics. But it's not economics. That is economics. That's what the economics textbook says.

But when we look at- Did you have some other textbook? The Federal Reserve- What are they learning this time? Can you let me finish here? The Federal Reserve did research showing that a significant portion, a majority of the inflation was just corporate price gouging. Executives were on calls.

You don't have to take my word for it. Executives were on calls bragging about how they were able to use the excuse of inflation to hike up prices. So there's an issue with monopolies. The last thing I really want to get from you, and this is genuine. No, I want an idea in the real world. And I'm telling you, if inflation rises next year and it continues that debate, it's going to hurt Biden like. I believe I agree with that. No, no. Yeah.

The era that you've covered extensively is like this Reagan, Clinton, neoliberal consensus. Do you think that that consensus failed in any meaningful respect? Do you think that consensus is broken? Are we moving towards a new era? Or do you think that it continues apace? Well, I don't think moderation sells generally. I mean, McGovern beat Muskie. I mean, the fact is that if you have a wild idea and you can appeal to people who are desperate,

they're going to give you a shot. And, like, you know, the idea that we can continue a massive welfare program in addition to what we're spending now, I don't know how we can keep doing it. I just, I mean, there's no way you're going to raise taxes. I can't think of how you can raise taxes with a Republican Congress right now. And in effect, even the Senate's not going to do it. Right.

Yeah, I mean. So where are you going to do it? What government are you going to have? You're talking about the United States government? But do you think that there were core failures? To get back to this question of like, where does the populist energy around Trump and around Bernie, where does this come from? And is it rooted in some key failures of that bipartisan consensus, the overlap between basically Bill Clinton and Ronald Reagan? You know, you have this

consensus in favor of deregulation. You have the Iraq war. You have free trade. You have all of these things that build up to the financial crash. I have free trade, you have all of these things that build up to the financial crash. I mean, aren't these key failures of neoliberalism that now you have these movements in reaction to, movements that you very much don't support? Don't support what? You don't support the populist movements like Trump. Trump or Bernie. Yeah. Yeah. Were there failures in that? Trump or Bernie? Were there? Okay, there's a different. They're wildly different. But talking about the animating energy here, were there key failures in that neoliberal

consensus that has dominated here for some 40 years? I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. This is wearing me out. I just, this argument is just, I'm arguing with someone who has no interest. I'm not trying to argue. Tell me where the states are that Bernie people win.

No, no, no. Tell me the states that are for your point of view, because you're advocating here. You're pretending to interview me, but you're really advocating for a social welfare state. And I'm going to ask you, where is it winning? Well, look at Florida. They passed a $15 minimum wage by 67%. You're jumping around. I'm not trying to argue with you about Bernie anymore.

I'm trying to ask you what you really think about the era that you covered and whether it's coming to a close or whether you think that, you know, do you think it's coming to a close? Do you think it served people well? Do you think there were any failures to it? Anything that should have been done differently during that era? Can I speak? Yeah, please. Go ahead. I think the Democratic Party, the modern Democratic Party, has been very good at opposing the Vietnam War. And most of it, not at the top, is very good at opposing the Iraq War. And these are real conditions where people get killed.

And we killed 200,000 people in Iraq. And in Vietnam, 58,000 people died from our country, and millions of Vietnamese. We made those decisions on civil rights, starting with the Brown case in 54, and the Civil Rights Bill in 64, and voting rights in 65. All those issues, social issues, the Democratic Party, with Republican support in many cases, Midwestern Republicans were very big on civil rights. Certainly, that's when we had a Northeastern Republican Party, establishment party. And I think in all those issues, the Democrats did the right thing.

And even, I think Roe v. Wade was a brilliant decision because I think even though it was political and it wasn't really a court decision, it was a practical decision. The old joke was that the Supreme Court follows the elections. And they did what makes sense and viability made sense. And so we moved, we've made a lot of decisions. In terms of unemployment, the Democratic Party has, under Clinton, balanced the budgets, which I thought was important, under Harry Truman, balanced the budgets. I think they've tried to do fiscally responsible stuff.

They have maintained at enormous cost, Medicare, Medicare, and Social Security, which are incredibly difficult and expensive. They have done all those programs for retirees. I think they've been probably in terms of homelessness and reality is on the street, not the world you talk about that world I don't know anything about but in the reality of the streets where you walk in San Francisco and you see there the liberalism

It is liberalism. It's not left-wing is liberal attitudes towards people living in the streets the graffiti That actually the duration of a lot of downtown San Francisco. I think they've been probably too liberal And I think if you go any further in that direction, you's almost zany. Now, just a minute. I'm getting the talk here because I live in the real world where people like Gavin Newsom can get elected and Jerry Brown can get elected four times. And people that are moderate Democrats, or you call them neoliberals, they are neoliberals because they're trying to do something. They're not socialists. They don't believe in the government taking over things. They know that at some point the government gets too big and it's the problem.

And they don't believe in all these solutions like you're advocating. Thank God there is no Bernie Sanders running the country. Thank God. No, just because you've made your point. I heard all the points. I've heard them all my life. And all those arguments would mean defeat. Do you think free trade served the real world? Absolute defeat. The real world, I know. Did free trade serve? Let me just say, I have a

couple of brothers who voted for Trump this time. Probably will again. I've got people and I have relatives I will not even argue with because they disagree with me. There's a lot more people on the other side than from your side. I think that Trump, probably in the latest polling in Pennsylvania, is one point ahead. In Michigan, he's even. Virginia, he's running even. I think he's probably going to pick up a couple of points in the next few weeks. Yeah. Because every time the courts go after Trump, every time the prosecutors go after Trump,

every time they go after Trump, and they are all right in these cases, I believe completely right, his microphone gets bigger. It's louder because if you attack somebody, they have a right to respond. That's the key thing. If you're under attack, for whatever reason, you get the talk and you get a lot of our return. So he's going to have, I don't think he'll go to this debate this week. I think he's probably going to wait outside.

He may even get arrested during that time. He may do anything, but he's not going to let Chris Christie grab the front page of the New York Times away from him because all will be is Christie attack him. And he's the liberal pinup boy right now. You'll hear about him a lot on MSNBC and CNN. You'll hear a lot of him because he's the liberal pinup boy right now. You'll hear about him a lot on MSNBC and CNN. You'll hear a lot of him because he's a liberal pinup boy. He's their guy and they know he doesn't have a chance in the world of beating Trump. Just like Bernie Sanders doesn't in the world of beating anybody, anybody.

That's not what the poll said, but- What poll? Give me the poll. There were all kinds of polls that- No, give me one. Just give me one now in real time. You can go back and- No, you're not looking them up. You can go back and look versus Hillary. Tell me the poll. No, give me one poll.

I'm just challenging you on your basic idea. All right, you're pretty challenged. How did Hillary Clinton do a beating Trump? Hillary Clinton was the electable one. How did that go? How did she do a beating Trump? What is that? This is called whataboutism.

No, you're making a case about who would have won. I can tell you who didn't win. Hillary Clinton didn't win. Yeah. Yeah, and that was the person who at that time, your network, anointed as this is the one who's electable, et cetera. I was pushing Hillary Clinton. Okay, okay.

I was pushing Hillary Clinton as a candidate. I'm going to be respectful of you. I like Sherrod Brown. I like people like that. Yeah. I like some people like that because they have an ability to talk to people the way they live. Okay.

And not this performance. Will Sherrod and Bernie have some labor supporting? I don't. Look, you have a point of view and you brought it to this table and I'm trying to defend against it. I'm just saying the more moderate course can win. The moderate course can win. And Biden has made a lot of compromises with Ron Klain.

He certainly moved over to the left. There's no doubt about it. He got rid of the Hyde Amendment. He tried to, you're not going to get rid of it, but he, these kinds of decisions, you know, he was for busing. Most people were against busing rather. And, and, and he's had to pay for all these sins of the past. I personally think it's, it's, it's a strange argument. I don't think you could win it as a ward leader anywhere. My, my last question. I think, I think, I think you think you could win as a ward leader anywhere. My last question. I think you could go to a-

You've made that clear. No, no, I'm just saying, where would you want to be the political boss? Where can you be a political boss? Well, I'm just- No, with your point of view. Oh, with my point of view? Yeah, where would you go with that? Well, I mean, I support populist economics.

No, no, no, no, no, no, no. Tell me where you would win. I'm not looking to be a ward leader anywhere, Chris. We're going to win. Where are you going to win with this argument? Well, obviously, it hasn't won in a Democratic primary, especially given the actually electable and who wasn't and that the evidence, that was an opinion. Let me just say this. If I had wielded this kind of power in my role for 26 years, I would have felt it. I never felt it.

I felt I was up against the left and I had to argue with them. I felt I had to challenge people like Hillary included. I think the idea that Hillary was too conservative for the country is ridiculous. Well, there was a lot going on with Hillary. Yeah, but you talked about likability. No, no, no. Wasn't that an issue? Not in that context.

Hillary is a very likable person. Okay. But how do the American people feel about it? How they feel about it? How they react to it? Yeah, they obviously went more vote for her than for him But he won the Electoral College, right? Yes, and how could that happen in a world where Bernie Ryan rises supreme? No, no, no, but you say Bernie to a similar populist anger and backlash against the 40-year neoliberal consensus that brought us wars and bad trade deals and hollowed out a good portion of the country. So that's why I think Bernie would have been a better matchup against him.

But listen, it's a counterfactual. We'll never know. No, no, we do know. Ask Bernie's foreign policy. Ask about the world. He sees it. It's totally different thanual. We'll never know. No, no, we do know. We ask Bernie's foreign policy. We ask about the world. He sees it. It's totally different than Trump. Thank you for joining us.

We really appreciate your time. We weren't trying to—we really want to hear what you have to say. I think we've learned more about your point of view than mine. Oh, people know my point of view, but yeah. But it just doesn't—it doesn't sync with anything. I've been involved in politics, and I can tell you that the Bernie argument He's a likable guy I Don't see the country outside of Nevada and those primary voters

Voting for okay, Nevada is a working class. I think you've made your position very clear and we appreciate your time Yeah, thank you for having talked about the world today, about democracy and the situation we face today and I think that's been a problem because that's the biggest thing I want to talk about. I thought the lead item, I think that in terms of real world politics, the way we live, the way we elect

people, who gets votes, I think that it's a fact that starting with the age of television, which we talked about. Yeah, then people who lost presidential elections Said so on television What do you mean they conceded defeat? Oh, yes They know they considered to be within within real time even Jack Kennedy and Nixon because Nixon said as the conditions go now

It looks like if it continues of this course, Kennedy will be the next president. Then he issued a statement the next morning. Kennedy made a point of meeting with Nixon down in Florida so that it would be very clear he lost. And Al Gore had to do this, and Hillary Clinton had to do this. And they all did it, even though Hillary Clinton was very unhappy, she was shocked by her defeat.

And I was in a hotel with her that morning. And they all did it. They stood up. They had guts. And that to me is patriotic support of our country. It's not left wing or right wing. It's belief in how we run our elections. And we do base them on who wins the electoral college and how it works. And that's how we do it. And all this other stuff about theories and what else could be done and how it could be a different world is not reality. It's not the world we live in. It's not our constitutional basis for our country. We live with a constitution where the most people voting, the way they vote, they may be middle class. They may have,

they may like corporate names. They may even like M&Ms. They may like Wheaties. They may, they don't hate corporations. American people don't get up in the morning and say, I hate corporations. They don't. They worry about, they don't get, they don't get up and worry about it. That's not what they think about. They don't. They worry about corporate power. They don't get up and worry about it. That's not what they think about it. They worry about being able to pay the bills. They're not on the left. They're not on the left.

They're just not there. Yeah, but they worry about- They're not on the left. They worry about being able to pay the bills. Not just left, right. Some people are pissed off that stuff costs too much at the stores. Yeah, that's right. Of course, I've said that from the beginning.

We agree. It's all a question of how it works. It's trying to make things into a big ideological snowball. It's not going to be. Bernie's never gonna be elected to anything like president. It's not gonna happen. Well, he's like 88 now at this point. So he's not doing anything.

Don't worry, Chris, you won that battle. You won that battle. It's not me. It's this thinking, it's the McGovern thinking of, all you have to do is hard left and everything's gonna be fine. Democratic Party went hard left and it went nowhere. I don't think it's that way.

And it's one way to lose elections. I think it's about delivering for people. Socialism. I don't want to live in a country so bad that it goes socialist. I think it's about delivering for people economically. Delivering. You go back to the same problem. It's holistic.

Look at what driving up prices does to people when you do what you want to do. And you keep spending money at the government level. Federal government spending is what you're talking about. That's really what you're talking about. I'm talking about delivering for people. No, no. That's another way of saying government spending. It doesn't have to mean that.

It does. Everything you said was all these programs you talked about. Think about just health care. All the COVID programs were spending programs and you supported all of them. How much do we spend on health care as a country? More than any other country in the whole world. It's just a question of who is spending that money. Do you think we're doing a good job with health care?

The nihilism is very depressing of like this is just how it is and we have to accept it. I personally believe that politics is downstream of how people are doing in terms of their economics. Now, you and I are just going to agree to disagree about how this all works out and exactly the features of inflation. I think this argument is fine in a Democratic primary, and we'll see who wins. That's all you can do. We've already seen it. Like I said, your side won. So, Chris, I appreciate your time.

No, it's not my side. My side is probably to the right of Biden. Okay. Probably to the right of Biden. Okay. Probably to the right. It's more moderate. I think that people like Muskie and people like that over the years and John McCain. You said you like Sherrod Brown, who I would say is to the left of Biden. I want to thank you for coming.

You know why? Because Sherrod Brown and Tim Ryan know how to talk to people. Yeah, I agree. They don't come off as zany professors or anything like that. They're not arguing theory focused on Populist pocketbook economics and that's something I support Thank you Keep this keeping your eye on elections because they decide things and we're in a proper constitutional world

They are the victors. Yes, the The people, the majority wins. We agree. Yeah. Camp Shane, one of America's longest-running weight-loss camps for kids, promised extraordinary results. But there were some dark truths behind Camp Shane's facade of happy, transformed children. Nothing about that camp was right. It was really actually like a horror movie. Enter Camp Shame, an eight-part series examining the rise and fall of Camp Shane and the culture that fueled its decades-long success. You can listen to all episodes of Camp Shame one week early and totally ad-free on iHeart True Crime Plus. So don't wait. Head to Apple Podcasts and subscribe today. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation.

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