Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 8/20/25: Trump Says No Troops In Ukraine, Cuomo Prays For Trump Rescue, Epstein Coverup, US Troops Near Venezuela, Steel Tariffs & MORE!

Episode Date: August 20, 2025

Ryan and Emily discuss Trump backtracks on troops in Ukraine, Cuomo prays for Trump rescue, MSNBC changes to MSNOW, Khanna blasts Epstein files coverup, US deploys troops in Venezuela war buildup, Ben Gvir taunts Barghouti in prison, Trump slaps new steel tariffs.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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is not. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to Black Tech Green Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today, and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you every morning in your inbox.

We need your help to build the future of independent news media, and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Good morning, and welcome to Breaking Points. Emily, how you doing? Great. I like the tie. Thank you. I don't know if I've seen that tie before. It looks great. Tennis rackets on it. Raina's very sporty. Oh, and by the way, big thank you to premium. supporters here. This week, Sagar had a pretty cool scoop where he got a bunch of documents related to the completely insane case out of Las Vegas where a pedophile who was in town

from Israel and worked basically directly for Netanyahu was arrested and then let go again. You guys have been following this story. Sager got a did the old-fashioned thing, made a bunch of phone calls, got the documents. That video was sent out to premium subscribers the night before the rest of the world learned about it the next day on the show. So one more reason to go to breakingpoints.com and pony up. And it's a good reason. It's a good reason. Very good reason. So on today's show, we're going to start with updates from Ukraine. Donald Trump is ruling out U.S. troops on the ground, but we'll see if that's actually the case. On which ground, on the ground in Ukraine, but not necessarily Venezuela, which we'll also talk to. Exactly, yes.

We need those troops. It's like a game of risk. He's only got like one little guy. He can either To move it to Ukraine or down to South America? Yes. South America, there's only one route to defend, so Trump's like, that I can get my extra turns on the roll there. Venezuela and Mexico. Extra troops on the roll. Right. Yeah.

Yeah. So Venezuela and Mexico potentially on the table. So we will talk about updates in Ukraine, but we'll also talk about how the administration is looking at potential plans for Venezuela and Mexico, wild leaked audio from Andrew Cuomo in the Hamptons. You're not going to want to miss that one. Representative Rokana is here with us. Ryan, we also have another interesting guest. Yes, Arab Barguti is the son of Marwan Burguti. And one of the criticisms you often hear is, where is the Palestinians Nelson Mandela?

And the answer is, well, they either probably killed him early or he's in an Israeli detention center being brutalized. And a lot of people believe that Marwan Barguti is a version of the Palestinian, Nelson. Mandela. He was recently threatened by it'smar Ben Gavir, who visited, like the courageous man he has, visited him in his jail cell to basically threaten his life. So we're going to be joined by his son later today. Big interview. And more updates on tariffs. So Trump actually expanded tariffs on steel and aluminum yesterday. So we're going to break down what that means for the economy. Let's go to Ukraine, Ryan, and start with this clip of President Trump on Fox and friends yesterday morning, there was a little bit of anxiety in Maga World after Donald Trump

was asked at that big White House summit whether or not that would mean U.S. boots on the ground, whether or not part of this negotiation could include American troops. Does the security guarantee look like potentially American troops defending Ukraine in case of another invasion by Russia? And Trump said basically, we'll find out. We'll find out. He said, we'll find out over the course of the meeting. And so because of that, it looks like, he got this question on Fox and Friends, and this is going

to be a big part of whatever negotiation is hashed out. So it's well worth paying attention to what Donald Trump is saying. So this is Trump on Fox and Friends yesterday. What kind of assurances do you feel like you have that going forward and, you know, past this Trump administration, it won't be American boots on the ground defending. that border. Well, you have my assurance. You know, I'm president. And I'm just trying to stop people from being killed in Russia is a powerful military nation, you know, whether people like it or not. It's a powerful nation. It's a much bigger nation. It's not a war that should have been started.

You don't do that. You don't take on a nation that's 10 times your size and, you know, military experts. The Ukrainian soldiers were brave as hell. Because it's fighting a force that's much, much bigger. And the theory, much more powerful. And, you know, it's not like they've stopped. I assume you've all seen the map. You know, a big chunk of territory is taken. A lot of wiggle room, of course. Actually, as John Bolton himself pointed out the night before on CNN, he was saying, basically,

he's almost gleeful. I can't wait for MAGA to hear that maybe there'll be boots on the ground in Ukraine. Then he goes on to say, basically, we already had that. We were doing train and assist missions after 2014 on the ground in Ukraine. And that point is actually one of the few things jumping. Bolton says, that's worth, you know, really camping out on Ryan, because that could be indeed what the security guarantee looks like. Yeah, it's good to pay attention whenever Bolton is happy about something. It's a good jurist to say, okay, wait a minute, tap the brakes here.

Right. Trump has also floated, well, maybe there will just be, you know, American air power. Mm-hmm. And it'll be European boots on the ground. But American air power, you know, for as aggressive as the foreign policy establishment has been against Russia and in support of Ukraine over the last couple decades, they have not established a no-fly zone. They have not floated putting American troops there. They have not said that they might have American warplains flying over Ukraine directly then tangling with Russian warplains. Right. Which means war with Russia. I mean, it's not literal boots on the ground, but it's boots over the ground. And the boots could be on the ground. Yeah.

If things don't go right. Absolutely. Yeah. So, yeah, this is a real ramping up of American involvement in this conflict, which was, you know, quite the opposite of what we were told we were going to get here. Right. So the Kremlin is also right now, according to BBC, playing down talk of this imminent summit, the idea that it's happening in the next couple of weeks. They are currently downplaying. Meanwhile, this is another banger from Trump yesterday. Let's roll A2.

I want to end it. You know, we're not losing. American lives. We're not losing American soldiers. Well, losing Russian and Ukrainian, mostly soldiers, some people as missiles hit wrong spots or get lobbed into cities like Kiev in towns. But, you know, if I can save 7,000 people a week from being killed, I think that's a pretty, I want to try and get to heaven if possible. I'm hearing I'm not doing well. I hear really at the bottom of the totem pole. But if I can get to heaven, this will be one of the reasons. Well, I think I say, A lot of lives with India. Okay, that was more from the Fox and Friends hit where Trump, towards the end of it said he wants to get to heaven.

But he feels like he's at the bottom of the totem pole. He has been, I mean, he knows he's led a very bad life. He's aware of what he has done. To every, like, he, I don't think he's ever worked with a contractor or subcontractor that he hasn't ripped off. Yeah. Even I've met people that he's like, whose lives he's destroyed just because he didn't pay on time and pay in full for what he owed. That's just the little stuff from when he was a fake mogul. So he knows where he's headed if he believes in any of this stuff.

But he has been talking about the human cost of the Russia-Ukraine war for years now. To the point where you have to start to credit it as something that he actually believes. He actually genuinely does seem to care about the scale of the loss, the human loss. between, on those front lines, which, you know, a lot of presidents throughout American history have just seen those things as numbers, particularly if they're not even Americans. Well, we were talking, you used the risk metaphor earlier in the show as we were opening up, and that's actually how the Bolton's of the world. Right.

It's this callous sort of detached idea that you're playing risk with real people's lives. Plastic troops die, they, you take them off the board. That's all, like, that's, they literally see them as little plastic toys that you can move around. Right. That is the means that justify their great end. It's how they picture it in their own minds. Now, what is, I think, somewhat worrying, no, extremely worrying about that, is this war is a stalemate, it is a meat grinder, and that's where even people who are skeptical of the entire involvement, the U.S.'s entire involvement in this conflict, are desperate right now to get an end to the conflict. And that might mean,

some type of really ambiguous, vague, abusable security guarantee, that because this is a conflict with no obvious end in sight, I think everybody knows, even if part of the Dombos is given to Russia, or if Russia has secured part of the Dombos by the end of these negotiations, then it's not over. It means they're still sharing a border. It's very obviously not over. It's very obviously not over forever. And so five years from now, after another flare-up, do you have U.S. planes, for example, air cover and deaths in Ukraine because of whatever is hashed out now that people are desperate to end the conflict? Yeah, right. And maybe it'll never be over. But Trump is in a tricky spot where he's trying to find something where there's overlap between the two the two sides

here that Ukraine is clearly seems at this point willing to concede that they're going to lose territory but they don't want to just have a you know like you said like a one year pause in the fighting right and then they get run over again right on the other hand that's more of a concern on the Russian side in the sense that Russia has the momentum and Russia has the resources like they don't actually need the pause as much as

Ukraine would need the pause. So what is the face-saving victory that Putin can get? He'll get all four of those the blasts. He seems to desperately want Zelensky gone

and apply or pliant, you know, basically Russian friendly regime put in power in Kyiv. And so maybe, so I assume that's where they go, like if they do get this peace deal. Yeah. Then Russia's effort from then on will be trying to take power. Yeah. The strain of Russian nationalism that sees Kiev as an essential part of the Russian nation, lowercase, and is not going anywhere. nationalism is not going anywhere, and these borders, even if Russia takes extra territory by the end of the negotiations, are still borders.

Yeah, and the country, the Ukraine that would be left would be kind of like the heartland of the far-right Russian Ukrainian nationalists. So, yeah, its politics would get even further to the right, especially as, and we've talked about this before, like in the U.S., like the more, the more, and in most, countries, the more miserable things get, the more reactionary people get if there's no kind of Bernie Sanders populism to channel that into. And with the amount of corruption in Ukraine, it's very, people don't have faith in somebody like that to be able to, that's why Zelensky kind of, because he was a celebrity and like was seen as outside the system, had the ability to capture the imagination. Also, because he said he was going to make a peace deal, which he did not because he was pressured by the right to not do it. So yeah, it's it's very difficult to see how

there's overlap. Let's actually I'm going to skip ahead in element because we were just talking about the the Russian side of the negotiation. This is A4 so we can roll this VO of Sergei Lavrov who is saying basically this conflict has clear causes calling in an unprovoked Russian attack is childish babble that's part of this translation but Ryan lots of predictable bluster coming from

the Russian side right now and that's you know there's nothing shocking about Lavrovs saying what he said in the clip but it's not like I mean I don't know it feels like Trump is potentially in another loose suit of the football situation I hope that's not the case that people

stop dying but to your point about the Russian motivations to actually wind things down, I don't know, but this could very well all fizzle out in the next few days. It could, but Putin has victory in front of him if he just says yes. Well, it depends on what he thinks. Trump is willing to give him the store at this point. Right. And then, yeah, then it becomes a question of what do these security guarantees look like?

Right. And Trump clearly, like, the idea that Trump would. commit American troops to defend Ukrainian territory, produced enough kind of fear and anxiety on the right that he had to kind of go on Fox and Friends to then walk it back. So there isn't much that the U.S. can really do anyway because the American people don't want to do it. Right, right. Yeah, that's exactly right. This is another Lavrov clip from RT who is saying you cannot discuss Ukraine security guarantees without Russia. He says that's quote, pointless. So we'll see if Russia will be at the table with Ukraine in the days and weeks

come, because that is, again, what is on the table is a trilateral or even just a bilateral between Russia and Ukraine directly. So on that note, let's roll this clip of White House press secretary, Caroline Levitt, responding to a question from the New York Times about this anecdote from the wild, extraordinary scenes at the White House on Monday that Donald Trump called Vladimir Putin while Western leaders were all gathered at the White House, this is A3. The point is to get everybody on the same page. Why wouldn't Trump just take the call from Putin while the other leaders were in the room? He said it would be disrespectful to do that.

But why is it disrespectful? With all due respect, only a reporter from the New York Times would ask a question like that, Sean. The president met with all of these European leaders at the White House 48 hours after sitting down with President Putin on American soil. In fact, there was so much progress in the readout that was given to these European leaders immediately following his meeting with President Putin, that every single one of them got on a plane 48 hours later and flew to the United States of America.

These leaders, who this war is in their backyard, are very grateful that the president took that call and that he was there to provide them with a readout of Russia's thinking on this. Well, I guess, Ryan, there's something to be said for Trump perhaps being the only major American politician that could actually bring Vladimir Putin to the table of Zelensky at this point. If he can. If he can. If he can do it. Like Putin won't say his name.

Zelensky, yes. So if he if he could pull it off, I can't really envision anyone else having gotten them both to the same table. And if getting them both to do it is the way that the Times guy said, just like, oh, by the way, Vlad's on speaker. Hey, Vlad, we're all here. Say how to my boy. Yeah. Tell them what you told me because it persuaded me immediately. Then we have to remember that, like, Trump, the whole thing is just comical, art of the deal.

Like, he goes in demanding a ceasefire out of his negotiation with Putin and comes out of it. Like, you know what, actually Putin's right. There shouldn't be a ceasefire. There should be a comprehensive peace deal, and the Europeans are wrong. And the Europeans were so appreciative of that that they, as Carolyn Leavitt says, they immediately hopped on a plane to fly to the United States to thank Trump for, doing so wonderfully and to get more readouts from him. Yeah, they really appreciated that. Lead story. It wasn't panic.

Lead story in RT right now is U.S. realistic about chances of Ukraine peace, Trump aide. And that is tagged to comments from Monica Crowley saying that the conflict between Moscow and Kiev will not be settled overnight. So there's some cold water for your Monday morning, or your Wednesday morning feels like Monday morning, peace hopes. Yeah. The conversation with John Mayer. Schimer that soccer and I had on Saturday I thought was really instructive and people should go back and watch that if they want to understand the difference between the ceasefire and the and the comprehensive peace deal it made me think of and this is not a kind of moral

analogy but of the American Civil War like the the South often wanted a ceasefire once the thing got started and and the Union started to roll and they even you know In the North, they were running an anti-war Canada. They would call themselves anti-war because they wanted to stop the war because the North was winning the war. And up in the North, they were like, no, we're not doing a ceasefire.

We want a comprehensive peace that involves a revolution here that is going to see emancipation and a reordering of American society. We're going to end this. We're going to free the slaves. We want a full-on peace deal. Obviously, Putin is not Abraham Lincoln, but he wants a complete reordering of Ukrainian society. Yes, right.

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This is more, I guess, ammunition. So this is in this leaked audio from Andrew Cuomo in the Hamptons. He says, we can minimize the Sliwa vote because he'll never be a serious candidate. And Trump himself, as well as top Republicans, will say the goal is to stop Mom Dani. And you'll be wasting your vote on Slewa. So I feel good about that. With the next quote, let's put it this way. I knew the president very well.

I believe there's a big piece of his. He's asked right here, you know, is Trump going to get involved? Because you spoke with him recently. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's helpful context. So I knew the president very well. I believe there's a big piece of him that actually wants redemption in New York.

He feels that he was rejected by New York. We voted for Hillary Clinton. Bill de Blasio took his name off things. So I believe there will be opportunities to actually cooperate with him. I believe that he's not going to want to fight with me in New York if he can avoid it. So that quote makes its way into the New York Times. That was at a fundraiser, right? Like a Hampton's fundraiser.

I think political scopped it first, yeah. Okay, so it makes its way into the press. Now, you will not be surprised to learn that Zora Mamdani is already capitalizing on that and using it to fuel his attack narrative on Cuomo that he's cooperating with Donald Trump. So Mamdani posted at another Hampton's fundraiser with Republican donors on Saturday. Andrew Cuomo said it plainly. He's expecting Trump's help to defeat us in November. I feel good about that.

Cuomo said New Yorkers, won't. So that is a pretty significant new weapon in the Mamadani arsenal against Andrew Cuomo. And I wonder, Ryan, if this makes Cuomo look sloppier and sloppier in a way that hurts his candidacy, too. I don't know. I think I can see. I mean, I have a little bit of familiarity with the Republican donor class, and I can see them thinking this is actually really badass of Cuomo. Like, he's just given it to the Dems, and he's starting to really get it and be empathetic towards them. So maybe that even gives Cuomo more momentum with Republican donors who will keep fueling him. And these were Republican donors, and not just any Republican donor, this is inside baseball

for breaking points viewers. This was at the home of Jimmy Finkelstein. Yes, yes, yes. In the Hamptons, who you may or may not know was the former wannabe oligarch owner of The Hill, which was the owner of Rising, which is, which was always a very weird marriage. I think he hated that show. But he kind of loved that show too, because he liked making money. Yeah, he liked it. He liked that the show had an audience.

He did not like what the show was saying. Right, right. Yeah. And then Finglstein sold the Hill. Crystal Sager left before Finglstein sold the Hill. Yes. He sold it to News Nation. Yes.

Which is Chris Cuomo. next star right right next star which owns news nation right and a whole bunch of local news networks for you know 100 plus 200 plus million dollars he then started another news organization here in dc that went belly up already i don't even remember it's called i don't even remember it's name i don't it wasn't notice right they were no it wasn't noticed but they were offering people like 500 000 salaries i mean not quite but it lasted like four months yeah maybe not even but he has a enough money that he still has a Hampton's home and was able to have

Mum Donnie, not Mom Dunny, able to have Cuomo over, and yes, I think your point is very good. Jimmy is, my understanding, not just a Republican donor. He's one of those people who's both, right? He's one of those people who, like, probably, my guess would be like Mansion.

Like, he's on a, he'll, he's like a guy that Trump will take his phone calls. Yeah. Yeah, he likes Mansion, sure. They all love Mansion. Well, it's not the love about Mansion if you're at him. But yes, he's tight with Trump, Republican donor. But I think your point is right. So Cuomo's argument is, okay, you like his ideas and you like him, you don't like me or my ideas.

But I don't have any ideas. What I have is I'm good at government. I'm competent. I've done this before. It's a big, sprawling bureaucracy. You need a tough guy like me to be able to run this thing. the guy can't run his own campaign it completely undermines the only argument that he has

for why he should be mayor like if momdani is better at campaigning than you are and you've been campaigning your entire life since you were a child campaigning for your father then why should we believe that he's not also going to be just more competent forget the ideas but like if you if you were judging the level of confidence

between Cuomo and Mamdani and all you have to go on is the campaign or Cuomo's career but forget to put that aside is the campaign you'd be like Mom Donnie knows what he's doing and you don't I am not a political genius

I could tell you that tying yourself to Donald Trump in the New York mayoral election might not be the best strategy and also when you go to the Hamptons somebody's record that. Who do you think serving your drinks? The entire Hamptons is just being live-streamed.

Of course. Yeah. It's like eight reality shows. There were probably two reality TV camera crews at that fundraiser. They were there, yes. It'll be a year from now until we get that footage, but I'd love to see that footage. You know, I actually, I have a slightly different take on the Mamdani Trump strategy tying Cuomo to Trump. I just don't think that's the most powerful weapon against Cuomo, like there are a million other ways to attack Cuomo, but tying him to a brash, populist New Yorker is, like, probably

it's not a slam dunk. There are a lot of people who are basically, I think you underestimate the hostility to Trump. Well, on a visceral level. I think that, I mean, I definitely, like, know that's very, very real, but I guess I also just think he's running a kitchen table

election. You know what I mean? Like, that's his candidacy is a kitchen. It's very much like a kitchen table candidacy, not a resistance culture war candidacy. And so there's so many easy, easy attacks on Cuomo. And he makes them. It's not like it's not like it's a zero-sum game. Like you can do both at the same time. He seems very eager with this strategy. And maybe there's testing and all kinds of stuff, focus groups. But I also just think New York is very pragmatic city that's like twice elected Republican mayors and memory, like recent memory. So I don't know. General election and New York City is a weird thing.

That's true. They have elected some Republican mayors. Cuomo, in that audio, Cuomo was saying, like, they took Trump, DeBosio took Trump's names off buildings. Like, he's kind of implying that Donald Trump might give New York all kinds of goodies if we just put his name back on stuff. And, like, that's true. It's absolutely true.

We all know that. I also took from that that it was sort of a readout of his call with Trump. Yes. That that list of grievances was the thing. were the things that Trump was complaining about to him, Hillary, de Blasio. I mean, you can just hear Trump complaining about de Blasio to Cuomo. And also because that is a thing, like nobody hates de Blasio more than Cuomo. Yes.

Like they were at war every day all day to a degree that really harmed the state and the city. Yeah. It became extraordinarily childish. And so Trump would have loved to fuel into that. So I think where this gets more, actually more powerful, that very attack, is if it can start to look sort of like a secret plot. And that might be why Mamdani is watching onto it, because that is a really powerful narrative. It looks like there's a secret Republican plot to install Andrew Cuomo, quote, Democrat as mayor of New York City.

And this is where yesterday Mamdani got another giant gift in the form of a man named Jason Levine or Levin. I'm not sure how that one's pronounced, but I'm just going to read a run. down here from Politica, we can probably put these memes up. This is B2 on the screen. So Jason Levin posts on X. I'm making memes for the mayor. Yes, actually, I made a meme for Andrew Cuomo that hit 5 million plus views. Tonight I met with Cuomo and his team to talk about marketing strategy. Here's how I plan to save NYC with memes alone. If you are listening to this, I can't describe to you how bad that meme is. If you're watching this, you see it. I don't even need to describe how bad that meme is. But he's boasting about his brilliant meme game and it's

basically like boomer level, although some boomers are incredible meme lords, but he's boasting about some pretty, pretty weak sauce, Ryan. Yeah, and he is pointing to the 5 million views, which that's a reference to what used to be Twitter now X? Elon's numbers. Those are Elon's numbers. This is not a flex, but anybody out there watching this can probably remember, in the last week you probably had a post that got a 5M on there. Yeah, allegedly, right. Right. It's like, it's not, that's not serious.

That those are, that's 4.9 million people who scrolled right past it. Right. And 99,000 bots and then a thousand friends of like Cuomo and Cuomo supporters who like clicked on it on Facebook or something. So then over to Politico. Cuomo apparently, I don't know if it was at that Hampton's fundraiser we were just talking about with the leaked audio or another one. There are many Hampton's fundraisers for Cuomo. I assume every weekend you can probably, you might have to change your outfit 10 times that you're not repeating it and you can hit the circuit and look good. But at another fundraiser, he was shouting at his social media team.

And Politico writes, the team did a stupid thing. The Cuomo campaign is scrambling to distance themselves from self-proclaimed meme lord Jason Levin after he proudly boasted on X late Monday about making a meme the Cuomo campaign posted and his plan to do more. The problem for Cuomo, Politico continues, is that Levin's online persona is that of a provocative MAGA booster proudly proclaiming he voted for Trump last year. This is one of his posts. I'm a proud Jew who voted for Hitler, all caps, over a photo of Trump and Yarmicaa, calling him Hitler was meant as a sarcastic criticism of liberals who do the same, as Politico

helpfully explains for us. Levin didn't respond to a request for comment, but he He is, quote, not paid by the campaign. He suggested one meme to someone on that team, Cuomo, spokesperson, rich, as a party, told Playbook, Hatred, Bigger, Tree, Misogyny, and anything like that has no place in this race. Misogyny has no place in the Cuomo race. It's shocking information. Okay, we have more memes to look at, though. So let's go through B3 here.

Great stuff. Which union you're going after? Teachers, firemen. It goes down the whole list. it's union busting time baby yeah this is him quote tweeting a paul graham 2015 post that said any

industry that still has unions has potential energy that could be released by startups and yeah so this guy levin quote tweets that and says it's union busting time baby so this is quomo's meme lord goes back to the competence question we were talking about earlier totally mom donnie does not do this kind of thing he's making the competence argument as a guy who face planted

in an easy slam done race against a 33-year-old state senator, and then also has MAGA meme lords riding for him, audio leaking the Hamptons, talking about how he is cozy with Donald Trump. Let's put also, we can keep going through some of these. This is, Good Evening, Brian Johnson. How many carrots do I have to eat for my eyesight to be good enough to see through women's clothing? This guy's got to come on board the Breaking Points team and do some social media for us. Just great stuff.

Next one, we can take a look at. I think this is the last one. People are just digging through this guy's entire social media history. Okay, maybe this was the last one. But he is, I would actually say probably a great fit for the Cuomo campaign. Sure. And they can distance himself from him. But the fact of the matter is he says he met with Cuomo and his team to talk about marketing strategy

and posted a picture of himself with Andrew Cuomo. So the Cuomo campaign can say he suggested a meme to us. But anyone could suggest a meme to the Cuomo campaign. And probably some people do once every couple days on X when people are there talking about Andrew Cuomo as infrequently as they do in a positive light and say, hey, sir, we'd love you to use this meme in your campaign. They don't listen to anybody. Obviously, they were talking to this guy and hadn't thoroughly vetted him. So on that note, let's bring in Chris Cuomo, the one and only Chris Cuomo, speaking of the Jimmy Finkelstein Next Star, Cuomo nexus, this is Chris Cuomo, just as his brother is running, as a Democrat, for mayor of New York City, saying the Democrats suck. My brother's a Democrat. I don't know why, but he is. My father was a Democrat. I know exactly why he was, but his party doesn't exist anymore.

Now, it's the left arguing for a cultural elite. This is how you will talk about people, Benny. This is how you will raise your kids. This is what you will tell them is okay. This is what, you know, you will say and not say. And the Republicans are, this system sucks. All the little people are getting squashed. These elites are killing us.

Anti-everything. They flipped the idea of going to socialism. Not socialistic. Yes, public education. Yes, entitlements. Yes, there are socialistic aspects to our constitutional republic within a capitalistic model that work. They work for the collective. That's what we do. But it's a capitalistic society. No Democrat ever argued for anything else. No Democrat would have argued for open borders. You know, none of this. My father would have done none of this. Today, it's all provocative bullshit all the time. No responsibility. No accountability.

So that was Chris Cuomo talking to Benny Johnson, which is amusing in and of itself. But Ryan, just final point on all of this is Cuomo was just making a much better pitch for his brother's campaign than his brother ever does. Because as a politician, his brother is not out there talking about how, as Cuomo says populist Republicans are, the system is broken, the system sucks, and it's rigged for elites. That is absolutely not the Cuomo campaign. I mean, he can try, but the style only goes so far, trying to, like, position yourself as this populist champion of the working class is insane

when everybody knows it doesn't go to the substance at all. So good luck. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime.

A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases,

to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning.

Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life, impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro.

And these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, We continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share 10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets.

Listen to Family Secrets Season 12 on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Well, after all of these years, MSNBC, Microsoft NBC, is changing its name. Let's go ahead and take a look at this graphic announced just a couple of days ago. MSNBC, by the end of the year, is going to become MS now, which stands for My Source, News, Opinion, World. Ryan, that is a beautiful poem. My Source, News, Opinion, World. MS Now, as part of this rebranding effort, or as they were discussing this rebranding effort, we have to roll this clip of the conversation on Morning Joe, where they frame it as part of

MSNBC embracing its identity as these are actual words used in the segment, an insurgent, independent network. Take a look. This shows were independent. And what I've said on this show time and time again is you look of the people that are running the company, they're entrepreneurial. Like, we want you to come up with new ideas. We want you to push the boundaries. I'm excited about that. So I'm excited about this, too.

It's like, you know, what's in the name? Well, whatever you put into the name. Despite my sentimentality about the peacock, I've always loved the peacock. The truth is, I've always thought about this network and CNBC and USA and actually all of those assets as insurgent networks. Right. This is an insurgent network. And I love the idea, to be honest with you, you can take out your

salt shake or whatever you want to do and say, you know, take it with a grain of salt. But I like this because I think it actually does have this sort of independence and actually gets away in some ways from even the idea of legacy media. We are moving, we're moving in direction beyond corporate media. And again, I think this fits. It fits. It's where it's a new marketplace. Are we going to be like Eastman Kodak throughout the 1980s and 90s, you know, or are we

going to be like Nvidia? and look at a brave new world, and I think this is, this actually helps us do that. The media landscape has been changing a lot over the last decade or so, but it's been really accelerated in the last few years in this particular moment. So it does seem an ideal time to rebrand, an ideal time to embrace a new identity, as you said, to be an insurge network. By the way, it's also a line in the sand just about the future. And the truth is that this network, originally the MS was Microsoft.

Right. So for a very long time, there has been a rebrand, I would argue, almost in order. Yeah. What do you think? I think it's good. You're just saying that. You're just saying that.

No, I think it's good. We know for a fact that people get their news, a lot of it from YouTube and TikTok. So if you're the biggest news network out there, that's a big deal. We've always just say MS anyway. Yeah, MS. And then the truth is now is what this is all about. Right. As promised, that is MSNBC.

referring to their future as MSNOW as getting away from corporate media, being more independent and insurgent. But, but, but you will be surprised to learn that as part of the spinoff from NBC Universal Comcast. This new company that does include MSNBC also includes CNBC, USA, Oxygen E, sci-fi, and the Golf Channel. It's still going to be part of a publicly traded company, of course, called Versant, which made this MSNBC MS Now announcement. I think it was on Monday formally.

So, Ryan, they are trying very hard to brand themselves 10 years too late as the future of media, non-corporate, independent, insurgent. That is obviously laughable, but they're at least getting this first part correct, that it's where the winds are shifting. Yes. New York Times calls itself independent media. Amazing. And it has for quite some time, actually. And in the sense that they are not owned by a higher corporation, they are actually independent. Like the New York Times is a publicly traded company that owns the New York Times. So in that sense, they're independent.

But they're a major corporation with the board. Yeah. And in some ways, the Times, I would give more credence to that, the Times calling themselves independent than MS now, because the Times does rely pretty heavily now on its subscriber base. And so just like we do. And then they have corporate advertising on top of that. Whereas MS Now is basically just all corporate advertising and cable revenue. You know, they have subscribers in the sense that people pay cable and then it goes from them, you know, it goes through the cable company to MS now.

But there's nobody who's like every month or every month. year, you know, saying I support this independent media. So the Board of Directors for Versant is the former CEO of YUM brands. So some people, so this is former chairman of international content and operations at Walt Disney. Former Starbucks, or former council, I'm sorry, former CEO of Starbucks North America, former president of Samsung. It's all kinds of people from the corporate world. Actually, the New York Times Board of Directors

is not entirely dissimilar from that. But to say that you're moving away from corporate media as a corporation with a board full of corporate... It was so funny. Maybe they're independent corporate media? Yeah, independent corporate media. That's the new thing. That's like, I think the third-way guy Matt Bennett

said that what Democrats need right now is a combative centrist. He told Axios that yesterday. So independent corporate media is the new oxymoron of the decade. And it is fair to say that CNN and MSNBC have a YouTube audience. Like when they put their clips out there, they will do well. No, that's a good point. If they were just in the podcast world, they'd be hanging tough.

They're entering the space with a massive head start. We'll put it that way. Yes. Because they have huge. Windows in their sales, yeah. Yeah, they have decades plus long of... And they're famous people. People, like, and famous people are good for the algorithm.

Yeah, they have built-in followers, yes, of course. So it's not like they're going anywhere, but yeah, they're obviously realizing 10 years too late where the winds are blowing economically, but also then how that affects the public's appetite for content in a low institutional trust environment. How they handle austerity will be interesting because MSNBC, because of the cable revenue for, a very long time had just extraordinary amounts of money because the cable was just shedding money and just showering it on CNN MSNBC. I was a contributor back in 2013, 14, 15. Amazing. And they started out paying me $50,000 a year just to, I was like, are you kidding me? $50,000? For what? They'd be like, just come on there when whenever we ask. Whenever we ask. And the next year they bumped it to 60. Like, that's it?

Like, a couple minutes a day at most. And I was one of many dozens of people that they're just throwing that money to. Right. And so what their world looks like after that, after they can do that is a different question. It's like, you know, Scarborough over there, you know, if they're throwing 60 grand at me to do nothing, You know, they're throwing millions at him. Of course. And that can only keep going because of the cable grift.

Yeah, it's why CNN has hemorrhaged people like Don Lemon, who are super expensive and aren't at all worth what you're paying them. Like, it's interesting to think about what Anderson Cooper's features like with CNN. CNN has already been doing significant downsizing. Now, bear in mind, to Ryan's point, some of these networks actually have huge website traffic. Like are some of the big news networks, news websites in the world. So CNN is one of the top trafficked websites in the world, period, whether you're even talking about news or websites. So we think about their TV ratings going down.

Well, MSNBC is losing that connection to NBC. So we'll see what happens. You know, they don't have their guys on the day show and whatever else going forward and the website synergy. But they are obviously entering this with a huge head start. The final point that I just wanted to make is it reminds me, I wrote about this today, actually, that it reminds me so much of Cuomo in a weird way. This is the connection between these two blocks. Quomo and the combative centrist

model, it's funny because Gavin Newsom, too, they're co-opting the style of combativeness, but it's not going to, we know, whether you're talking about a cable network affect the content. And with Gavin Newsom, it's not, or Andrew Cuomo, going to suddenly mean they are actual populist champions in substance. They're not going to start saying, like Bernie Sanders does, or reflecting in their policy platforms that the system is rigged, that the entire system is rotten and corrupt to its core. Do you know, I can start hearing that on MSNBC or in the Cuomo campaign events? But that's what the public wants.

You might want when they cut Scarborough's pay, by like 70%. Yeah, then he's really like, it's over. Yes. All right, well, Congressman Rokana is here, so let's go ahead and bring him in. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you.

Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning.

Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in. it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA.

Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors. And you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum,

the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Your entire identity has been fabricated. Your beloved brother goes missing without a trace. You discover the depths of your mother's illness the way it has echoed and reverberated throughout your life,

impacting your very legacy. Hi, I'm Danny Shapiro. And these are just a few of the profound and powerful stories I'll be mining on our 12th season of Family Secrets. With over 37 million downloads, we continue to be moved and inspired by our guests and their courageously told stories. I can't wait to share

10 powerful new episodes with you, stories of tangled up identities, concealed truths, and the way in which family secrets almost always need to be told. I hope you'll join me and my extraordinary guests for this new season of Family Secrets.

Listen to Family Secrets, season 12, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, it's August. recess, but Congressman Rocana, who joins us now, is not giving up the fight for more details and disclosures in the case of Jeffrey Epstein. Congressman, thank you for being here.

Thanks for having me back on. Of course. Now, we have covered your legislative effort with Republican Congressman Thomas Massey. Can you please give us an update on where this bill stands? Because obviously, it's recess right now. But there's all kinds of legislative maneuvers that have been happening behind the scenes to avoid Republicans having to vote on this bill. Catch us up to Well, as you remember, they shut down Congress a week early to prevent a vote on Massey and my bill. The good news is we have all 212 Democrats who are ready to sign a discharge petition, meaning it can force the vote.

And we have 11 Republicans, including people like Marjorie Taylor Green and Lauren Bobert, who are saying we need to have a vote on this. So when we come back September 3rd, we're going to put the discharge petition out. I hope within 24 hours we get every Democrat, we get a Democrat. the Republicans, we force a vote. One other quick point. September 3rd, we have a press conference in front of the Capitol with victims of the Epstein abuse. They're coming in from around the country, first time many of them are speaking out. So that is going to up the urgency of the full disclosure. Absolutely. What I ever understood is why they cared that much since the Senate

would also have to pass it. Like I get why they don't want the legislation to be enacted. I get why they don't want to release information about what happened. But what are they so scared of it just passing the house? Have you had a Donald Trump tweet at you, Ryan? No, that's exactly it. You know, I mean, they live in fear of that Donald Trump truth social post. Look at what's happening to Thomas Massey. He's really, frankly, a profile in courage on this. He's had millions of dollars already spent against him. Donald Trump has taken the team that won his presidency and put all of them against Massey on a primary challenge. So there is no defiance.

In fact, they came up with this resolution that had no teeth to try to give the Rules Committee an opportunity to vote on it. And they didn't even want to bring that, a toothless resolution to the floor for fear of offending Donald Trump. We actually have a video of some victims talking about their experiences. We can go ahead and roll C-1. It actually makes me sick that she is claiming to be a victim or have any form of innocence.

This is the same woman that grabbed my arm and forced me into a room to be raped by Jeffrey. It was brutal. And I remember limping from Jeffrey's bedroom to the bungalow where the survivors slept. And I remember looking at Gieland and she had this evil smirk on her face. She knew by forcing me into Jeffrey's room

that I was there to be raped and she enjoyed it. She participated. She tortured me and others. And she's worse than, Jeffrey. She broke the sisterhood. She broke that bond. She was supposed to be a protector and nurturer.

And she failed us. So that also involves Galeen Maxwell, obviously, who we still, to my knowledge at least, and maybe you know more about this congressman. We don't have an explanation for why she was suddenly moved to Club Fed. in Austin or whether or not that is an appropriate use of federal resources moving Galane Maxwell to a lower security prison. Now you said that you were having a press conference planned for September 3rd to push for the discharge position and the

vote on the bill that you're championing with Thomas Massey. Have you been talking in contact with the victims? Can you tell us about maybe you've gotten to know some of them and where they stand on whether or not more disclosures is warranted in this case because that is one of the central tenets of the administration's position right now, their stance, is that we have documents that we've looked through for months, but Pam Bondi said we also have things that would damage the victims if we exposed them to the public, which I think everybody understands is probably true, but that's not the excuse for keeping everything secret.

So tell us about that. Well, it's just heartbreaking what's happened to the victims, and frankly, they have not been centered in this entire story, even when Epstein got that light sentence. Their voices haven't been considered. Their voices haven't been considered with Maxwell. Right, they weren't told about the plea deal. They weren't told about the plea deal. They have never been consulted.

Their lawyer hasn't been consulted on what should be released. I mean, if they're really concerned about the victims, wouldn't you pick up the phone and talk to the victim's lawyer? I have not talked directly to the victims, but I've talked to their attorneys to respect for the victims. And I'll tell you that the victims, based on the attorneys, are going to say that what they want is full disclosure, that this is what is needed. for justice and closure.

Of course, they want the victim's identity protected and they want any sensational sort of information about particular private acts, not in there, but they want full disclosure for closure. And that's really what we should be centering this back on the victims. And I feel like I'm growing crazy here, because for years, the kind of Republican subcultural reason

to be was fighting against child sex traffic. And it feels like the White House should have one of those signs that says, like, you know, number of days since they covered up a child sex abuse ring. And they'd have to wipe it back down to zero because of this Las Vegas scandal. Which, you know, I'm sure you've followed it a little bit, Tom Alexandervich, you know, top cyber official with Israel's in Las Vegas, lures what he thinks is a 15-year-old to some type of rendezvous. and is then arrested because it wasn't, you know, it was a, it was a federal and local sting. And then immediately it's like a shuttle back to Israel. I haven't actually seen, I've seen Marjorie Taylor Green jumping on that.

I've seen a lot of the kind of Mago World types who made a lot of their bones about, you know, opposition to that type of trafficking. But I haven't seen Democrats kind of seize on it. Yeah. And it seems like they've kind of, maybe it's August, they're at the beach. Or they're in Israel. Can you see that photo? Yes. I mean, they adjourned Congress because they didn't want to vote for the Epstein files.

And then what do they do? They go and all pay homage to Netanyahu. I'm familiar with the case. I haven't focused on the details. I do think we need to speak out. My focus has been on Epstein because this is an area where we can actually make progress, the Justice Department has started to release some files to the oversight committee based on the subpoena. But so far as basically things already public, it's really going to

take a House vote to force it. And this is a place the first time I would argue that you've seen a split in the MAGA base. I mean, you know people like Lauren Boberg, Marjorie Taylor Green, Tim Burchard, even Comer saying, we've got to release this. Because it goes to what they were fighting for. They said, look, the government is corrupt. The government is protecting the rich and powerful. The government is protecting pedophiles. We're going to stand up with this. And now Donald Trump's not doing it.

It's a fundamental betrayal to the MAGA base. And how far do you think those folks you just mentioned? Because I know you're talking to them and you have worked on this bill with Congressman Massey. We all know Congressman Massey is willing to push this one as far as he possibly can. But sort of these others in MAGA world, Marjorie Taylor Green, Lauren Bobert, Tim Burchett, how far do you think they're willing to go to? upset the administration and the president, because I can imagine press conference at September

3rd, the victims are speaking outside of the Capitol and the discharge position is an immediate, urgent question on the table. Some people might get cold feet. Do you think that's the case? How far are they willing to go? Well, you've put your finger right on the central question. I mean, yes, we have 11 Republicans are supporting it. We have even more who've spoken out for it. But whether they're going to sign that discharge petition, we won't know until it happens. Now, Thomas Massey and I are confident based on private conversations that they will, but there is going to be a huge amount of pressure by the president, the vice president, the White House to say, don't sign this discharge petition,

and we'll see. And that's one of the reasons we have the victims coming. It's a big deal. They're flying in from around the country. Many of them have never spoken out before. You can imagine having to relive that trauma and to do it in the spotlight, right? front of the Capitol, and they're doing it because they want this vote to take place. Has being out in front on this given you any more insight into what's actually going on? Like, have you heard from people at the FBI or the intelligence agencies or anywhere, either officially or informally? Like, have you picked up anything new that you can share with us?

I have picked up things from the victims and the victims' lawyers, and we've even subpoenaed as a result of it, Epstein's estate, where some of these documents are likely there and their alternatives. One of the things I have picked up, people say, well, how will we know if the Trump administration's actually going to release it and be transparent? And without getting into who said this, some people have said, there are a lot of career folks who have seen these documents. So if people play games with it, you're going to have whistleblowers, you're going to have enough career folks who will come out and say, this isn't the full full story. And you mentioned all Democrats are on board with the bill, and you've been consistent.

Some of your colleagues have not. So what are the, what's your sense of why some Democrats were for a while, either just not super interested in talking about this story, sometimes dismissing it as like Q&N, through swamps? Is it because the Clinton implications, other major Democratic donors, what's your sense of why people on the left were uncomfortable? I shouldn't say in the left, but in the Democratic Party, weren't comfortable previously with the story. I think our party can sometimes be culturally out of touch. So some people said, oh, it's a distraction. First of all, if voters are telling you they care about something, it's usually a good idea to say we should care about that issue.

You know, I have my issues that I deeply care about, economic patriotism. But if I came on this program and tried to move the question every time and say economic patriotism as opposed to answering the question. He'd say, well, I don't want those person back again. So partly we're not listening. Partly, the populist sentiment is not fully clear in people who've been in Congress 10, 20, 30 years. They don't like us. They don't trust us. They don't trust these institutions. And before we can do Medicare for All, before we can do shoring on Medicaid, we've got to tell people that they can trust government. And so I think that the folks have been there a long time. they just don't understand how much of a breakdown of trust there is.

By the way, when we spoke yesterday, you said you were reaching out to Catherine Clark to see if she would join your two-state or you're recognizing Palestine letter. You hear back? I'm waiting to hear her. I'm hoping, you know, we had big news, and J Street has endorsed the letter. I'm going to be doing a conversation with them this afternoon. And, you know, but did you see Netanyahu's comments against the Australian Prime Minister? I mean, calling, saying he's betrayed Israel.

The person who was betrayed Israel is Netanyahu, and he's out there lashing out against any leader, basically, who is doing the bare minimum, which is recognizing a Palestinian state. I saw your earlier interview, and the person was absolutely right. Right now, we have to stop the bombing, stop the killing.

The recognition is just table stakes. Yeah. Yeah, and that's a good plug for that interviewer's book with Arab Barguti, Marwan Barguti's son. And his life stories just tells the entire story. He's, he had the support of Hamas for a, he said, we should not attack civilians. I want a two-state solution on the 67 borders, bring all the factions together. And, you know, there's huge elements within Hamas that don't support all of that. But as, but collectively they're like, all right, you know what? Bargutti's the most popular politician in Palestine. He represents the will of the Palestinian people. We're behind him. And the solution has been to jail him and torture him for 20 years. Last question, Congressman, Marjorie Taylor Green actually was on Megan Kelly's podcast yesterday, talking about APAC. And that's a sort of, I think Glenn Greenwald pointed out, just a remarkable turn of events in and of itself.

And Marjorie Taylor Green's on this bill you mentioned that you have 11 Republicans on for Epstein disclosures. Have you ever seen anything like what's happened over the last couple of months, particularly on the question of Israel, which obviously has connections to the question. of Epstein, does it feel to you as a member of Congress, like something is shifting when it comes to support for Israel? Obviously, Alyssa Slotkin had an ultra-viral moment on this show with Crystal and Sager a couple of weeks ago, where even she seemed sort of eager to make the point that she was upset with Israel, which was interesting. So do you feel like there's a significant shift happening? It's been a tectonic shift over the last month, month and a half. You know, I was, of course, I had voted against the funding along with about 40 other Democratic members in April of 2024.

I was out in the forefront saying Kamala Harris needs to change your Gaza policy or we're going to lose the election. I had called for a Palestinian speaker at the DNC. And I would say I was on the, not the fringe, but certainly on the very left of the party on that. I now actually feel that this last month, because of the starvation, the man-made starvation, you've had even moderates, people like Jean Chaheen, people like Ruben Gallego, saying his position is changing, suddenly have a very different approach. And this shift is remarkable. And you have, you know, APEC is attacking me.

I don't know how they choose the people they attack, but I'm apparently. in a group with Bernie Sanders and a few others, and they put something out every day. And I said, well, the only person I'd rather be attacked by is right now is Netanyahu. So, you know, they're not, I think they're just out of touch. Fascinating. Well, Rokana, as always, thank you so much for being here. Appreciate it. Appreciate it.

A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire. not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA.

Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught. And I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team

behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison

or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth. Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York State number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor and rehabilitation programs.

Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin-Brandford.

And in session 421 of therapy for black girls, I sit down with Dr. Afea and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal. Because I think hair is a complex language system, right, in terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, you're a spiritual belief. But I think with social media, there's like a hyperfixation and observation of our hair, right? That this is sometimes the first thing someone sees when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled. We talk about the important role hairstylists play in our community, the pressure to always look put together,

and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying, don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neil Barnett, where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. While President Trump has ruled out boots on the ground in Ukraine, He hasn't done it when it comes to Venezuela.

Now, things got a little bit scary. When the State Department put out what they said was a $50 million reward for a man they said is a fugitive narco trafficker. But when people looked at the name, they're like, wait a minute, I know that guy. It's the president of Venezuela. He's in Caracas. Can I have my $50 million now, please? Easiest 50 mil ever. Then you see news starts to break, that there are secret plans.

to ramp up pressure against Venezuela, and you start to wonder, wait a minute, is this, are we going to do another coup in Venezuela? Is that what's going on here? Caroline Leavitt asked about whether or not the Trump administration is now talking about actual kinetic war with Venezuela, boots on the ground, and notice that she does not say no here. The three U.S. warships that are being sent to Venezuela, and there's 4,000 Marines on board. Are you looking at possibility of boots on the ground there? What I will say with respect to Venezuela, President Trump has been very clear and consistent. He's prepared to use every element of American power to stop drugs from flooding into our country

and to bring those responsible to justice. The Maduro regime is not the legitimate government of Venezuela. It is a narco-terror cartel. In Maduro, it is the view of this administration, is not a legitimate president. He is a fugitive head of this cartel who has been indicted in the United States, for trafficking drugs into the country. So this is sort of like a new gloss on the old regime change effort that has been brewing out of Miami since the 1960s when the Cuban Revolution led to an outflowing of Cubans into Miami.

They have been trying to overthrow governments around our hemisphere. and using their power, using their influence in the U.S. government to try to do that. Before that even. Yes, it really ramps up after Castro. But now they're saying it's actually because of drug trafficking. The irony being, of course, the Latin American right is as involved in drug trafficking as the Latin American left, if not more so. And certainly historically more so.

I was going to say, you don't even have to say the Latin American right. You could actually just say the American right. Yeah. And so now the argument that Trump apparently is making is that we need to overthrow the Venezuelan government because of drugs. Like, how is it like, is this an attempt to shoehorn it somehow into America first? Because like nobody voted for a war with Venezuela. Yes. I don't know a single person other than actually some of them. my, maybe some of my family down in Southern Florida, who are Cubans. Yes. They would love to see a war down in Venezuela, and a lot of them are American citizens.

There's plenty of... But that doesn't quite count as America first. No sense, guys. There are plenty of Venezuelans who would love America to fuel a coup. Well, the right-wing Venezuelans in South Florida. Or the right-wing Venezuelans in Venezuela would love to have the United States fuel a coup and provide the kind of rocket fuel for a coup against... And we've been doing that on and off for a very long time.

And this is fundamentally what was supposed to be the distinction between the old Republican Party and the new Republican Party. This is the distinction between America first and America last, as Republicans now referred to the neo-conservatives, is that even wars waged for what you considered a just cause against, for example, a legitimate dictator. are no longer America's business if it is not in the vital strategic interest of the United States, if Americans themselves are not immediately, urgently, directly affected by this conflict. And that's supposed to be the distinction between America first and America last, that precisely the animating principle of the Cold War, which then morphed into the George W. Bush second inaugural speech about how it is in America's interest to promote democracy everywhere,

This is exactly what America First is supposed to oppose all of those, or that entire ideological strain. And so, yes, I think the narco part of this is how you shoehorn it both ideologically for somebody like Marco Rubio, who has, and many others on the right, who have sincerely reconsidered their prior commitments to democracy promotion abroad. Marco Rubio obviously was a supporter of USAID before he became this bitter enemy of USAID and an impassioned, like whatever you think of the guy, I could just tell you, having covered him for a long time, he has come to bitterly detest institutions like USAID. That is a sincere transformation. But you can more easily sort of justify this anti-communist neo-conservatism or hemispheric strategy is what they would say, A, because it's in your hemisphere, it's not in the Middle East,

B, because you could say this is narco-terrorism that comes up to the United States. And so, yes, that's how you end up with also D4 battle plans for Mexico. This is a Rolling Stone report headline. Team Trump is actually drawing up attack plans for Mexico, and I bet you Team Trump loves this headline and is actually not running from this headline at all. Trump is eager to breach Mexico sovereignty to attack cartels, officials say, just don't call it an invasion. That is the subheading on the Rolling Stone piece. So that is exactly how you make this argument fall under the banner of America First. And it's not going to fly with a lot of

people, but, you know, those are people who are mostly like professional grassroots America First activists. Here's my theory. And you, as a right-wing observer, tell me if I'm seeing this accurately. Trump, I think, does get animated by this whole thing where he's going to go after the cartels in Mexico. Absolutely. He's talked about that a bunch. Strikes, yep. So Rubio has never met a non-right-wing regime in our hemisphere that he hasn't wanted to

overthrow. And so Rubio sees Trump saying, oh, I'm going to get the cartels in Mexico. And then says to himself, oh, I'm going to then link Maduro to cartels, and then I'm going to piggyback what I really want to do, which is overthrow the regime in Venezuela. I'm going to piggyback it onto this Mexican thing. And the reason I think we can tell that this is clearly a Rubio policy, it's not just that it's wildly obvious. He's head of the State Department who's wanted to do this kind of thing his entire life. But at the very beginning of the administration, if you remember Rick Rennell, who's a special envoy inside State Department kind of roving around

the world, um, was able to free, um, some Americans who were held as political prisoners in Venezuela. He then was on track, um, to free a whole bunch more in a deal that would have involved some sort of like lifting of sanctions on sit go, which has an America first element to it that is quite obvious because Americans, as far as I am. understand, prefer gas prices to be lower than higher. Yep. And it's a, and it's also a, like, let's put this Cold War stuff behind us. We've tried to overthrow you a whole bunch of times. It hasn't worked. We don't think that the elections that you held were free and fair, but we're not about messing with the internal politics of countries anymore. You're in power. So let's,

let's come to a deal. Rubio steps in and gets crosswise with Grinnell and, and, and, and, ends up getting a political prisoner deal that gets some Americans and some legal residence, interestingly. Including a guy who killed three people in Spain, gets them out of Venezuela, brings them back to the United States in exchange for the Venezuelans that we had sent to Seacott and El Salvador getting patriated over to Venezuela. So his hardline effort that doesn't do anything about gas prices or sit-go or normalizing relations with a government in our backyard, that one triumphs. Then you get this $50 million bounty on Maduro's head. Then you get this, like, we're drawing up secret orders to do regime change. And then you get these 4,000 Marines and a nuclear-powered flotilla headed to Venezuela to saber-rattle there, which... Right.

And we have a, we have that VO, or yeah, we have that VO we can roll. This is D1. This is the military. This is the Venezuelan military prep in response to the announcement. I think part of this also has to do with Rubio being boxed out from everything else. Like Whitkoff is running the Gaza file. Trump is based in Whitkoff are running the Ukraine file, although now he's tasked what, J.D. Vance and Rubio with taking Russia, Ukraine over the finish line. Rubio doesn't seem terribly engaged with Asia. Rubio really cares about the politics of the Caribbean and South and Central America. Well, I think that's, I mean, yeah, so what people were just watching on their screen is, according to reports, the Venezuelan government has mobilized just in the last couple of days, quote, more than four million militia troops, simuling response to reports of U.S. naval movements in the region. So that is from Time Magazine. Maduro said, we defend our seas, our skies, our lands, we liberated them, we guard and patrol them. power would touch the sacred soil of Venezuela, nor should it touch the sacred soil of

South America. So, yeah, those three U.S. Navy missile destroyers deployed off the waters, deployed to the waters off Venezuela. And I think, with Rubio and a lot of people in the right, you remember as well as anyone, Rubio recognizing Juan Guido and a bunch of Republicans recognizing Juan Guido as a legitimate president of Venezuela, you know, from their perspective. And part of this is that they have these actual personal relationships. And if you're Marco Rubio and your sort of animating principle is looking at what your family,

you know, like, you know, a lot of passionate Cuban anti-communists. Like South Florida is filled with like a bunch of, you know, rich Venezuelans who fled. But also, yeah, but also Cuban. Yes. Americans like Marco Rubio. They've made common cause with the. Cuban right, yeah. Right, but also like their identities have been built on this sort of animating anti-communism and it's for deeply emotional personal reasons. And so Rubio then brings

with him decades of personal relationships with anti-communist activists, whether it's Juan Guaido or others in different countries. And so when you end up in a position of power, all of those people are knocking at your door. And not only do you agree with them, but you're talking to them all the time you like them and you're trying to help them out and they're asking to help them out so it just creates this um swirl of action uh that's almost like it's it's inertia it's like you don't stop it because as soon as your secretary of state guess who's knocking on your door and wanting that coup that you've always supported when you were just a senator so i think a lot of it actually is it could be that but it's also the call coming from inside the house like rubio himself

I think it's personally animated by this. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. But I was saying, like, the way that I think of it is even if Marco Rubio decided no, America First is no more coups, blah, blah, blah. I don't even know that he could. I honestly don't even know that he could because the Cold War inertia on the right

is so strong at this point that it would take, I mean, just a feat. It would be, like, think of convincing a lifelong anti-communist Cuban to give up on Venezuela like give up on the Venezuela coup. And just doesn't underscore how insane it is that Levin was asked

if there's going to be American boots on the ground of that as well and she wouldn't say no. Right. Let's go to the New York Times report that the Rolling Stone report we had on the screen was confirming. The New York Times report was that President Trump has secretly signed a directive,

quote, to the Pentagon to begin using military force against certain Latin American drug cartels that as administration has deemed terrorist organizations according to people familiar with the matter. So Rolling Stone then takes that and talks about Mexico and there's an argument from Trump people that there are certain Venezueling gangs giving material support to Sinaloa

and cartels in different places. But think about what that means. I mean, this is, as the New York Times says, the order provides an official basis for the possibility of direct military operations at sea and on foreign soil against cartels. U.S. military officials have started drawing up options for how the military could go after the groups

that people familiar with those conversations said speaking in the condition of anonymity to discuss the sensitive internal deliberation. So this is not just been, This is not just Mexico. This is the entire region. They've talked about Haitian gangs at this point. Like they are, to you, this underscores what you were saying.

This is totally supportive of what you're saying is that this is, it's not like Marco Rubio being dragged, kicking and screaming into fighting the Cold War hemispheric battles. This is Marco Rubio eagerly saying, I'm in charge now, we're doing some coups. Or maybe we're doing some coups. We're hoping to do some coups. And I think this could badly blow up in Rubio. face. If he gets his wish and actually gets some type of confrontation, this is not what anybody wants. Yep. Even people who, again, will agree with you on Maduro, say, Americans who agree with you and say, this Maduro guy, he seems shady. Don't love him. Stop the, stop the narco

trafficking. I think anybody's going to get that 50 million? I think you could get it. I feel like you're a pretty good idea. He's in Caracas. Because you, you came out right away. You said, Immediately. I know that guy. I've seen him before. Interviewed some of his lieutenants. That's right. Big guest, Ryan, coming up to the next block, who you helped us secure and we're going to talk to. Son of Marwan Barguti, who was just, I would say assaulted, but he wasn't physically assaulted. Itamar Ben-Gavir went into Marwan Bargutti's prison cell and beret. and threatened him.

We're going to talk to Arab Barguti, his son, next. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was. Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA.

Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum, the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases, to finally solve the unsolvable.

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as boot camps, are shorthy. short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aimed to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training, hard labor, and rehabilitation programs.

Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Dr. Joy Hardin Bradford. And in session 421 of therapy for black girls, I sit down with Dr. Athea and Billy Shaka to explore how our hair connects to our identity, mental health, and the ways we heal.

Because I think hair is a complex language system, right? In terms of it can tell how old you are, your marital status, where you're from, or a spiritual belief. But I think with social media, there's like a hyper fixation and observation of our hair, right, that this is sometimes the first thing someone sees

when we make a post or a reel is how our hair is styled. You talk about the important role hairstylists play in our community, the pressure to always look put together, and how breaking up with perfection can actually free us. Plus, if you're someone who gets anxious about flying,

don't miss session 418 with Dr. Angela Neil Barnett. where we dive into managing flight anxiety. Listen to therapy for black girls on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast. Over the weekend, video of Itamar Ben-Gavir, an extremist minister in the Israeli government, emerged showing him threatening the most,

by far the most popular Palestinian politician in the territories. Marwan Barguti, if we can roll this VO here, Ben Gavir visits Barguti in his cell after there had not been an image published of Barguti in many years and he says to him here you will not win he who messes with the people of Israel

he who will murder our children he who will murder our women we will wipe them out you need to know this throughout history joining us to talk about the fallout from this is his son Arab Bargutti, Arab joins us now. Thank you so much for being here.

Thank you so much for having me. So I said at the top of the show that people often say of your father, you'll often hear defenders of Israel saying the problem with the Palestinians is, you know, there's no Nelson Mandela. You know, there's no leader who's going to unify the Palestinians and take them to a place of dignity and national liberation. And what a lot of people often say in response is that's not true. If there is one, his name's Marwan Burguzhi, and he's been in prison for nearly two decades now.

Can you tell us a little bit about, you know, who your father is for people who are not immediately familiar with the politics of the Palestinian territories? Yeah, I think that the most important thing for people to understand is that Morvuan Prabhuthi is, is the most popular leader in Palestine for a reason. It's for what he's given to the cause. My father has been struggling for Palestinians' rights for more than 50 years. It was exactly 50 years ago when he stood as a teenager in Israeli prisons at the age of 15. And that was the first, you know, activism work for him. And after that, he stayed, he spent overall 30 years in prison.

seven years in exile. And yet you will never hear him speak out of hatred. He has a purpose in his life and his purpose is very simple, the freedom and living with dignity for all Palestinians. And it's very important for people to understand that my father supports political solutions. He supported those law courts in the 90s until he understood by the end of the 90s that we are dealing with a government and Israeli government that is not interested in a peaceful solution, that is not interested in a two-state solution, it's only interested in supremacy of the Israeli state over the whole land. And the proof of that is that within the Osloch, there were around 200,000 Israeli settlers in the West Bank, illegal settlers by

the international law, by the U.S. government, and by every government in the country. the international community, yet the number of settlers, instead of decreasing, doubled by the end of the 90s within a few years. And that was a clear proof. With that, the Palestinian people had the right to go for the uprising, what's known as the second intifada, and my father was the face of that intifada, because he's a politician. And as a politician and as a parliament member, his role was to tell the people what to do. And he asked the people to protest against the illegal Israeli occupation that is not ending. And for that, he paid a steep price. They tried to assassinate him multiple times. And then they put him in prison and they framed him as, you know,

a terrorist, which is the easiest thing for the Israelis to call anyone a terrorist, which is something that all colonial power used to delegitimize the right of people of defending themselves. And since 2002 has been in prison for that. Right, and I think one thing that's so kind of instructive about his life story is that so he's, he's a member of Fata, which is the rival, you know, the almost existential rival sometimes of Hamas. And he has been a very public and vocal supporter of a two-state solution, whereas, you know, Hamas has not, you know, has not publicly supportive of the two-state solution. And yet among Hamas, he appears to be not just the Palestinians generally, but even people within Hamas. He's the most popular politician. You know, they've talked repeatedly about trying to get him released from prison as one of their top, if not their top priority.

So what do you make of, you know, what does that tell you about where the politics are? that if Hamas is, is this supportive of somebody who is supportive of a two-state solution and has called for, you know, non-violent, you know, a kind of civil society-led, unified Palestinian resistance. I think it tells me that the Palestinian people are in need and are really interested in having a peaceful solution. And everyone is always wondering if the Palestinian people want peace. Of course we want peace. If you look at the human suffering, more than 90% of the human suffering that is happening in this land for the past 76 years is from the Palestinian side.

I know that, you know, in U.S. media, it's always covered as if the Israelis are the only ones who are suffering. Everyone lost their minds on whenever there is an Israeli that is suffering. And we don't want that. My father, as you mentioned, has been very clear about his opposing to the targeting of civilians. If you look at his biggest political achievement, it's the political prisoners document. The prisoners documented 2006 was a historical document for multiple reasons. First of all, it gathered for the first time all Palestinian factions under one umbrella, and they signed the first ever document together that stated that the Palestinian state

should be established on the 67 borders. The targeting of civilians is forbidden. The targeting of anyone outside of the 67 borders is forbidden as well. And he brought not even only the Fathar and the PLO's parties. He also brought Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and all Palestinian factions who signed on that document. And I think that's a huge achievement. But unfortunately, after that, and it was the cornerstone for the Palestinian government back then. But after that, unfortunately, the international community missed the opportunity

when Hamas won the elections. And instead of helping Hamas to become a political party, they isolated Hamas. They stopped the funding for the PA until the PA collapsed, and which caused the division within Palestine. We've been divided between Fatah and Hamas for the last 17 years. And it's, you know, between the West Bank and Gaza as well. And that, was exactly the vision that Netanyahu always bragged about to the Israeli people that look what I did, I divided them, I ended the two-state solution, I did this and that. And unfortunately, he's always respected within the American politics, even though he is the reason why we are suffering right now, not only Palestinians, but I could argue if you're

an Israeli, you should be opposing to the Netanyahu government and the faces of Ben-Gvira and Smotrich are a pure reflection of where the Israeli politics is headed. And on that note about Ben-Gavir, I want to read this quote from one of your father's lawyers to NPR. You said, when I received the video, really, I didn't recognize Marwan. He lost a lot of weight, and even his face is not what we were used to seeing. He said he had to consult with your father's wife to confirm that the gaunt figure in the video was her imprisoned husband. That's according to NPR. What was your reaction to seeing that video?

I was shocked, to say the least. I thought that there is a ceiling towards the desperation and the ugliness of this Israeli government, but I think that they have no ceiling. I think that they are capable of breaking laws and breaking traditions in front of the whole world because they know that there is no accountability whatsoever for what they do. If we were in a just word, it would have been the opposite. Ben-Vir is the one who needs to be in prison because he's a convicted terrorist. He's someone who is calling for the genocide of the Palestinian people, and yet he practices his freedom when he comes to the U.S.,

which is shameful that someone like him is allowed to go to the U.S., but Palestinian children are now not allowed to go to the U.S., which tells you a lot about what we have to do. deal with. I think it's the video is shocking because I haven't seen my father in three years. It's very important for people to understand that this is a man who is a politician, a respected

politician. He's recognized nationally and internationally. He was nominated for the Nobel Peace Prize for his attempts and tries to bring people together to unify the Palestinian people into one political vision that is accepted by the international community. And this reason, this point might be the reason why Netanyahu

and his government are being very stubborn towards his release, because they know that someone like him who respects the international community, respects international law, is calling for the two-state solution, presents a threat way more than extremists, because extremists, they make it easy for him to cancel the Palestinian story overall. I think it's shameful that that someone like him who holds a PhD in political science, who is an educator, he is a great father, and yet he is being treated like that. After October 7th, my father was sent to solitary confinement. He was assaulted at least three times, end of 23, March of 24 and September of 2024. The one in September of 2024 was the major one, where three to four

prison guards. They came to him. They dragged him into an area with no camera surveillance. They started beating him up until he passed out. He was bleeding on the floor for hours. And he got injured in his ear, in his forehead, in his right arm, and he got some of his ribs broken. And this is the treatment that we are talking about. I want to make sure that people understand that my father does not represent himself only. He represents 10,000 Palestinian political prisoners who are going through the same treatment. We lost 76 Palestinian prisoners have been killed inside prison since October 7th.

Many of them because of starvation, many of them because of beatings, many of them because of being left without any medical treatment. And no one talks about it. Everyone lost their minds because of the scenes of an Israeli captive in Gaza a month ago who looked losing weight and didn't look healthy. we want the same energy from everyone when they see Palestinians.

It's time to humanize Palestinians and to stop the double standards. Yeah. And so interestingly, while Hamas has been publicly pushing for the release of your father, some of his people that you would suspect ought to be his allies in the PA have been much less vocal, to put it gently. out his release. Like, it seems like Netanyahu is not the only one threatened by, you know, by his potential release that there are rivals inside the PA that may be as well. You saw some of them condemning Ben Gavir for visiting, which they should, but at the same time,

they haven't, what's your understanding, I don't want to put words you know, what's your understanding of what the kind of role of some of the top officials in the PA has been in terms of securing his freedom? Well, I think it's not a secret that the PA is not doing well overall. I think that the PA is in trouble because they don't have, unfortunately, we feel that they are being helpless because, you know, the genocide that is happening in Gaza is not only impacting the people of Gaza, but also in the West Bank as part of the collective punishment policy of the Israelis. And in the West Bank, we have, you know, many people

who, thousands of people who have been ethnically cleansed from their homes in the north, in Tulkarim, in Inchams, in Hebron, and in many other places, and we didn't see any reaction by the PA. In internal politics, you'll always have a competition, and it's very normal that some of them they feel threatened, but I refuse to believe that any Palestinian, regardless who they are, don't want my father to be released. My father is a great political force for the Palestinian people. He represents a unifying figure that everyone respects. And it's, he represents a great opportunity for the international community to rescue the two-state solution. And I think that the PA needs to be around that. He's a Fattah leader.

He's part of, he's a member of the Central Committee of Fattah, and he's a proud member there. And, you know, our generation, I think, are not big fans of how Fattah has become. come with the corruption and with many other issues and the integration with the PA. But I really believe that a strong PA, the body of the PA needs to be reformed and the institutions need to be stronger. And people like my father and many others who are in prison as leaders can play a great role in doing so. And last question for me, I'm sure a number of people watching at this point say, this sounds

This sounds great. He opposes attacks on civilians. He supports a two-state solution. He's a unifying popular figure. But Israel says that he was responsible for killing civilians, and that's why he's in prison. Can you address those, that, that, that, that viewer? Of course. I think, thank you for talking about this point, because this point is part of what we call the character assassination against Malwaan Marguuthi that has been practiced for the last two decades. If you go to the trial of my father, it was a kangaroo trial. If you go to the details, the judge of his trial called him a terrorist even before in the early stages of his trial, called him that he's someone who targets civilians,

which is something that is, of course, not true. If you go to the evidence, we have legal teams, international legal teams who did a full analysis, and they concluded that it would be impossible to say that Marwan Bargutia has been given a fair trial. Marwan Bargothia has been, they tried to assassinate him three separate times in 2001 before they brought him to prison. If you want to assassinate someone before you bring them to trial, that gives you the message that they are sending. The fear that was within the Israel government, they didn't want an inspirational Palestinian leader that could give hope to the Palestinian people that we have hope in having our own state. And their answer for that is let's try to assassinate him. When they fail to assassinate him, let's put him in prison and we can easily label him as a terrorist.

And all the Western media, of course, who are puppets to the Israeli government, will start using the word terrorist. they mention his name. The word terrorists have been used to delegitimize, as I said, like people like us, defending ourselves against oppression and against occupation and against the horrible Israeli actions within the Palestinian cause. The last thing I want to say, if you go back and study the history of the Israeli trial system, first of all, they have two laws. If you're Palestinian at 16, you're an adult.

you're an Israeli in the same West Bank, illegal settler, at 18 you're an adult. Other things is that they make kids when they are 13 and 14 sign on Hebrew statements without understanding what they are, without having a lawyer, without having a guardian present. They put, as we speak right now, there are 3,600 Palestinian prisoners in Israeli prisons without trial, without charge, and they are there under administrative detention, which is illegal by international law. I mean, you're talking about a trial that has a conviction rate against Palestinians of 99.7%. So what credibility does that trial or court have on Palestinians?

I think that people need to go, need to see and, you know, review the trial that my father had. It's full of faults. It was intentional to fabricate that he targeted civilians so they can cancel his name forever because they knew his influence within the Palestinian people. I was going to say, I do have one final question, actually. Last point on that and then your question.

For people who are still confused about that, there were, at the time, Palestinian factions and leaders who supported attacks on civilians. But they were very public about it. This was an open debate inside the resistance. So the idea that you would do it but not, but denied, like, it's like, no, like the people who supported tax on civilians were open about why they did it and what the purpose was and why it was justified, et cetera.

He was opposed to that camp. But anyway, go ahead. Well, no, so I was actually going to ask about that debate right now after, you know, let's say there's a ceasefire or some type of negotiation. How optimistic or not optimistic are you that leaders like your father will rise out of the ashes of Gaza at this point because the desperation has to be on a completely different level right now in 2025. So what does the future look like? I think that every Palestinian's priority right now is stopping the genocide in Gaza.

This is the main priority. This is the most important thing. And we don't want to distract people into looking at other issues. The second thing is, of course, I am positive that my father is going. going to be released. I don't know when. Of course, the negotiations are very complicated. But, you know, my father used to always tell me that hopelessness is a privilege that we Palestinians don't have. And I do think that we shouldn't feel hopeless because of what's happening. I want to remind everyone that, you know, if you look at the South African model, for example,

in the 80s, within a few years, no one expected things to change that quickly. And I think that I see the change. I want to send a message to the pro-Palestinians around the world and the pro-justice. We shouldn't call them pro-Pristinians. They are pro-justice. And I want to send them a message that I know that things seem as if they're not moving in the right direction. I know that things seem as if they are depressing with what we hear from governments, from officials, from the Israeli government itself. But I think that we need to keep the pressure. We owe this to the Palestinian children that are being slaughtered. We don't want their blood to be

for nothing. We want to end this by establishing a Palestinian independent state, and I really hope that we can celebrate with my father a free Palestine sooner than later, and maybe one day you can meet with him and

see what a great human being is. He's, you know, as I said, what I want people to understand about him is that he's a great father. He has six six grandchildren that he's never met before. He's, you know, I want him to fulfill the promise that he gave my mother more than 40 years ago when he told her that, listen, when he proposed to her, he told her that I'm not going

to be a doctor or an engineer, I'm going to be a politician. And in Palestine, if you're a politician, you're either going to be killed, arrested, or become a corrupted leader, unfortunately. So he knew that his path was going to be very hard. but I promise you that when Palestine is free, we will live a normal life with our children, with our grandchildren, and that's the promise that we're all waiting for as a family. And he represents thousands of families who are going through the same in Palestine, and they don't get covered, unfortunately, in the media.

Well, we look forward to that day. Ira Bagruti, thank you so much for joining us. Very much. Appreciate it. Thank you. Big news on the tariff front. We can go ahead and put the CNBC article up on the screen. The headline here is Trump expands 50% steel and aluminum tariffs to include 407 additional product-type CNBC further reports. The new report categories include everyday items such as car parts, plastics, and specialty chemicals.

Economists warn that the new levies could further strain the U.S. supply chain and raise prices for consumers. If we put the next tar sheet up on the screen, you can see some of the things here that are covered in it. So the Secretary of Commerce, undersecretary of Commerce for industry and security said today's actions expands the reach of the steel and aluminum tariffs and shuts down avenues for circumvention, supporting the continued revitalization of the American steel and aluminum industries. So they say it covers wind turbines, mobile cranes, bold dozers, rail cars, furniture, compressors, pumps, and hundreds of other products. CNBC is reporting this morning, their headline after the market's opened, as stocks are little changed as investors weigh retail earnings, await Fed minutes. And Ryan, this is, I don't think this is surprising news, but it's definitely big news. I mean, this is how...

I think it's a little surprising. Like, I think it did catch people a little bit off guard. We can put it in this next one. Jason Miller, a supply chain expert, calculated that the latest, and this is the latest, And this is a list of the things. The latest list brings, adds another like $320 billion worth of steel and aluminum products are now affected. And he's talking about a 50% tariff on them. That is a huge amount of money.

We're talking, I can do the math there. That's $160 billion that is basically sucked out of the consumer economy there. So it's $160 billion in increased costs that will go. to, as Trump loves to say, paying down the debt. Now, if you look at this list here, you know, car parts, shovels, any construction equipment that has any steel or aluminum in it, as you said, tractors, gearboxes. Heat pumps.

Like, basically, if you are in farming or construction or manufacturing, your costs are going to go up as a result of this, you know, quite significantly. And so the goal here is to have an aluminum and steel industry that is completely kind of contained here in the United States. I don't, there isn't really a whole lot of policy to go along with this to make it so that we have that industry that can then serve these, you know, can make all of these different products. In the meantime, most people who are doing manufacturing or farming or construction, basically everybody almost who is doing manufacturing, farming, or construction here in the United States is going to have their prices go, their costs go up, and then they're going to have to eventually raise prices. So the idea here behind the tariffs is that we're going to support American manufacturing.

The policy is to make it more expensive. to do American manufacturing. Because, you know, let's say you make knives. And there was this, you know, company going around. It's like, oh, wait, we thought we made all our knives here in the United States. A lot of our suppliers are overseas. So while we manufacture it here, we produce it here, we have a factory, we have a bunch of people working, the kind of thing we want here in the United States, we do get some of our supplies.

from overseas, and wow, with these tariffs, it's now going to be much more expensive for us to do our manufacturing. Which then, and so the foreign goods then don't have those extra costs in their supply chain, they'll just pay the tariff when they compete, when they are imported and compete against the American-made one. So it's not obvious that, like, it's even going to give an advantage to American manufacturing. this point because so much of it is overseas. And also, you're building a steel and aluminum industry domestically here. It requires, you know, multi-billion dollars worth of investment, right?

Are you going to do that if you're not sure what the tariffs are going to be next Thursday? Well, yeah, right. That's a, I think, a really important point. Well, it's an important point because if you're somebody like me and probably you, who is supportive of having some measure of protectionism of American industry, the question of, like, Trump's direction and Trump's process, like the distinction between direction and process is an important one because the direction can be correct and the process can be so clumsy that the cost outweighs the benefit.

And on that note, I actually still think that the jury is out on all of this, and that's a larger conversation, but tractors are covered in this. Guess what was announced yesterday? John Deere announces hundreds of layoffs. This is a Newsweek headline. Legacy tractor maker John Deere has announced layoffs at three Midwestern facilities as the company grapples with declining sales

and the effects of tariffs on its bottom line. The struggling ag economy continues to impact orders for John Deere equipment. The company said in a media statement regarding the layoffs, this is a challenging time for many farmers, growers, and producers and directly impacts our business in the near term. So those Midwestern... Killing our farmers and then killing...

The industry. Yeah, right. So that then becomes a question, as Republicans were heading up for recess, I talked to a bunch of them at like a town hall and ask them, you know, why is Trump underwater on the economy? Why are polling showing him underwater on the economy? And the answer I got is that the effects of the big, beautiful bill haven't hit the economy yet. And that's why we did the bill when we did. They say so that by the time the midterms roll around, well, first of all, they'll say they did it because the tariffs have already been implemented and it was urgent. But then by the time the midterms roll around, the effects of the economy and the effects of the bill on the economy will be felt by families and communities.

And what that means in terms of the tariff discussion is that they want to see this quasi-industrial policy from the one big beautiful bill, write-off's exemptions, all of that stuff, fueling growth instead of creating hemorrhaging. And when you look at John Deere closing three Midwestern facilities on the same day that these steel and aluminum tariffs are expanded, that's a flashing red light for Republicans who are counting on the one big beautiful bill to augment a wild and crazy tariff policy that feels like a roller coaster for all of these corporations, in addition to the already sort of significant, I mean, everybody would tell you a 10% baseline tariff and then all. all of these, like 50% steel and aluminum tariffs, everybody would tell you, you and I would concede. That is a shock to the economy. The argument is that it's a necessary shock to the economy. It is a shock to the economy nonetheless.

What this then looks like is it's, in addition to the shock, you have this extra layer of Trumpian uncertainty that is basically at a certain point an unforced error. Yeah, and I wonder, and maybe I'm too cynical here, but I doubt it, I wonder if in come May of 26, Trump's going to drop all of these tariffs, which would then lead to price drops, reduction and inflation. Things would be cheaper heading into the midterms. You could imagine a deeply cynical politician who's like, I would love to be able to toggle interest rates.

so that I can juice the economy in the six months leading into the midterms of the presidential election. But I can't do that because I still don't control the Fed. But I do control tariff policy, which I can gradually ramp up to be a really dominant force in the economy. And then when I feel like it, I can dial it back. And then a bunch of stuff gets imported for cheaper. Prices come down. Dollar is shaken. Everything's, and people are feeling good until November.

They vote. And then in December, you slap all the tariffs back on for 18 months. Right. And then do it again for the next election. I mean, you could like, which again. That's the only thing that I can see even making any sense at this point. And I don't think that's crazy, to be honest, because, but then again, that's what, that's the environment that makes people or different countries to the extent they can start hedging their butts with China.

or start hedging their bets by nearshoring, offshoring in different ways, and just saying, well, this isn't, I mean, this is just not worth it, just raising prices in different ways. This is the uncertainty. We don't know what happens with the next president, and now the precedent has been established that presidents can, you know, that precedent has existed for a while, but Trump has taken it to another scale, declare a national emergency, and basically circumvent Congress completely on tariff questions, not just emergency tariffs on China like we'd seen in the past, but let's just go crazy on it. So that precedent has now been established what happens after Trump.

We don't really know. Yeah, and aluminum and steel are also extremely energy intensive. And Trump just stripped like a trillion plus dollars of energy subsidies out of the economy while China is massively outpacing us on energy production. So, yeah, we want everything and we want to build nothing and do nothing. And let's see how that goes. Let's see. We'll be here.

We'll be paying attention to it. Breaking Points.com if you want to, you know, hear our cynical takes. While you still have some money, you should use it for a premium subscription. He's going to tariff podcasts pretty soon. Well, I mean, certainly, you know, podcast equipment would be covered with this. That I support. Yes. Well, yeah, we're already in.

So now we need a big moat. Yeah, we're building the tariff wall around the, this is, yep. So great day for us. But thank you everybody for tuning in. Again, breakingpoints.com. That's where you can go to get a premium subscription. We will be back on Friday. Normal schedule tomorrow, Crystal and Sager.

All right. So we'll see you on Friday. As a reminder, you get the second half of that show if you're a subscriber. But we will be holding it on the fort with Crystal. Maybe Sager will join on Friday. We'll see. Otherwise, everyone, have a great day. Crystal Sauer will be back here tomorrow.

Summer's here, and with the kids home and off to camp, it's easy for moms to get lost in the shuffle. On good moms bad choices, we're making space to center ourselves with joy, rest, and pleasure. Take the kids to camp. You know what? It was expensive. But I was also thinking, you have my kid. This is kind of priceless.

Take her, feed her, make core memories. I don't have to do anything. Main thing, I don't have to do anything. To hear this and more, listen to Good Mom's Bad Choices from Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey guys, it's Janae, aka Cheekies, from Cheekies and Chill Podcast.

And I'm bringing you an all new mini podcast series called Sincerely Jeanne. Sure, I'm a singer, author, businesswoman, and podcaster, but at the end of the day, I am human. And that's why I'm sharing my ups and downs with you in real time and on the go. Listen to Jikis and Chill on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. It's Black Business Month and Black Tech Green Money is tapping in. I'm Will Lucas spotlighting black founders, investors, and innovators, building the future, one idea at a time. Let's talk legacy, tech, and generational wealth.

I had the skill and I had the talent. I didn't have the opportunity. Yeah. We all know, right? Genius is evenly distributed. Opportunity is not. To hear this and more on the power of black innovation and ownership, listen to Black Tech Green Money from the Black Effect Podcast Network on the IHart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.