Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 9/12/25: Charlie Kirk Assassin NAMED: What We Know

Episode Date: September 12, 2025

Krystal, Ryan, Emily and Saagar break down the latest on Charlie Kirk's assassin.   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.comMerch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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is you. To start the conversation, visit talk about vaping.org, brought to you by the American Lung Association and the Ad Council. Hi, it's Jemma Spag, host of the psychology of your 20s. This September at the psychology of your 20s, we're breaking down the very interesting ways psychology applies to real life, like why we crave external validation. I find it so interesting that we are so quick to believe others' judgments of us and not our own judgment of ourselves. So according to the study, not being liked actually creates similar pain levels as real life physical pain. about the psychology of everyday life and, of course, your 20s, this September, listen to The Psychology of Your 20s on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get

your podcasts. Hey, guys, Saga and Crystal here. Independent media just played a truly massive role in this election, and we are so excited about what that means for the future of this show. This is the only place where you can find honest perspectives from the left and the right that simply does not exist anywhere else. So if that is something that's important to you, please go to breakingpoints.com, become a member today and you'll get access to our full shows, unedited, ad-free, and all put together for you

every morning in your inbox. We need your help to build the future of independent news media and we hope to see you at breaking points.com. Let me ask you guys this. And again, this, we don't, we don't know the ideological leanings of this person. We don't know if, you know, they could be politically all over the blue. We don't know. But let me ask you guys this question. Do you think I'm right that even if it is like a clear-cut case of like some white nationalist or Groyper type or whatever that this guy turns out to be, that Trump will just pretend that it's otherwise or use this anyway to his ends. I'm curious about him saying yesterday he had some sense of the motive before this person, like that tells me that maybe they think or they thought they had reason to believe that there's some, I don't know. Like what is going on?

Were they going off the supposed trans into bullets? I mean, we didn't spend enough time on that because it was so, it's so disgusting to me that the Wall Street Journal ran with that. And apparently it turned out there were like some arrows, like potentially already printed on the bullets because there are little like markings on there that they were like, these arrows, I think that must mean he's pro trans, which was completely invented. And, you know, all kinds of lay people when this news came out of like. markings on the bullets indicating transgender ideology, people were like, what would that even be? But apparently no one at the Wall Street Journal that reprinted this thought for two seconds to ask that question. Or they reported, well, here's also what's interesting is that they reported, so Stephen Crowder got it first, then the journal was probably rushing because of Stephen Crowder, which is already just like, what the hell?

But they reported that ATF was taking these markings seriously. And the journal probably failed to contextualize how thin the, like, evidence was, that that was, you know, something to take seriously. But what it says to me is that somebody at ATF was taking it very, very seriously. And so because of that, okay, here's it. We've got a press conference coming in. Now, I mean, real quick, to Chris point, like, Trump said he, I don't care. Trump is telling you. Trump, Trump already answered your question. Yeah, I don't care.

That's probably correct. I don't care who did this. Yeah, the problem, yeah, sure, we got radicals on the right. But they're doing it for the right reasons. I mean, that's what, you know, that's the whole justification for January 6th. We already know he pardoned a bunch of, you know, violent J6 rioters. All right, here's the presser. Leaving the rifle in a bush.

messages related to a to visually watching the area where a rifle was left and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel the message is also referred to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique messages from the contact tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits I know there's been speculation as well as to the writing on those casings. Here we go. Those bullet casings. And I believe we have that as well. And I'll share that with you now. So the area north of Campus Drive Road where the suspect crossed over, you saw some of that in the video that we released last night, consists of a grassy area with trees on the edge of the UVU campus.

Investigators discovered a bolt-action rifle wrapped in a dark, colored towel. The rifle was determined to be a Mouser model 98-30-0-6 caliber bolt-action rifle. The rifle had a scope mounted on top of it. Investigators noted inscriptions that had been engraved on casings found with the rifle. Inscriptions on a fired casing read notices, Colges, capital O-W-O, what's this question mark? Inscriptions on the three unfired casing read. Notices?

...exclamation point, catch exclamation point. Up arrow symbol, right arrow, and a symbol, and three down arrow symbols. A second, unfired casing read, O Bella Chow, Bella Chow, Chow, and a third unfired casing read, if you read this, you are gay. L-M-A-O. We are indebted to law enforcement across the state who has worked

seamlessly together, local law enforcement, state law enforcement, and our federal partners with the Federal Bureau of Investigation, we're grateful for everyone who worked together in such a short amount of time to find

this person and to bring justice. I want to thank the public who has been so engaged, reviewing videos, helping us with sending in tips and helping us get to this point. I want to thank the family members of Tyler Robinson, who did the right thing in this case and were able to bring him into law enforcement as well. I especially want to thank the family of Charlie Kirk. Erica, Charlie's parents, his children. I want us to be thinking of them as we bring justice in this case. They will be involved in that justice.

We will be working very closely with them as we move through this process as well. This is a very sad day for, again, for our, country, a terrible day for the state of Utah. But I'm grateful that at this moment, we have an opportunity to bring closure to this very dark chapter in our nation's history. With that, I'll now turn the microphone over to the director of the FBI. Those bullet markings are hard to decipher. This is what happens when you let good cops be cops. The The FBI and our partners are proud to stand here today together to bring justice to the family of Charlie Kirk

in honor his memory. I want to express my deep gratitude to President Trump, the Vice President, and the entire White House who have been so incredibly supportive with both resources and just personally to the FBI as a team. They had our backs the entire way, and I just want to express my gratitude

for giving us the resources we need to operate in this space to bring this sort of justice at this sort of speed. In 33 hours, we have made his story. historic progress for Charlie. Governor Cox, our partnership has been absolutely incredible these last few days. Our partnership will endure. Your state and local partners, your sheriffs,

your DPS community has been unbelievably impressive in the hardest of times. In a case like this cannot be solved, cannot be brought without partnering with your state and local authorities. The FBI has a certain role to play, we will play that role, and we will lead out the federal government, Governor Cox, we are so granted for for your state partnership that led out on this investigation. A little bit of the timeline. Charlie Rashad at 1223 p.m. on

Wednesday, the first FBI agents arrived on scene in 16 minutes with Chiefs of Police at 1239 and secured the scene. This is C.Y.A. to try to convince people they did a good job. We utilize these assets to transport personnel, specialty technicians, hostage rescue, teams. We also utilize these assets to go back and forth from the East Coast and here in Utah to transport forensic evidence and other evidence that will be analyzed and is being analyzed at our FBI laboratories in Quantico and other laboratories, including the ATF. At my direction, the FBI released the first set of FBI photos of this suspect at 10 a.m., local time on 9-11. Then, shortly thereafter, the FBI reward of $100,000 was released at 10.45 a.m. local.

Myself and Deputy Director Bonjino arrived on the scene at approximately 5.30 p.m. on 9.11. The governor led a press conference last night at approximately 8 p.m. where in my direction, the FBI released an ever-before-seen video of this suspect. We also released new images to the public of the suspect. And just last night, the suspect was taking into the custody of 10 p.m. local time. In less than 36 hours, 33 to be precise, thanks to the full weight of the federal government and leading out with the partners here in the state of Utah, Governor Cox, the suspect was apprehended in a historic time period. And I want to highlight what Governor Cox said. This would not have been possible without you the media and you the public. That's why we went so public, so fast.

The suspect was on the loose for more than 24 hours. that transparency. Just trying to use the Trumpian frame. Historic historic time here. State local authorities along with federal authorities process that crime scene quickly. And I even had the ability to walk through that crime scene and walk through the steps the suspect took to learn more about what was needed and what resources we need to prepare to create a full picture for the FBI and leadership back in Washington.

Furthermore, thankfully to state local partners, forensic evidence has been seized and continues to be garnered. Forensic evidence has already been evaluated. FBI laboratories in Quantico and state local authorities here. We will continue to process evidence as we see it as we collect it. We can probably get on to us. It doesn't seem like we're going to get any more news, right? Unless they take questions, but that could still be another 10 minutes. Well, let's go through it with a Kate.

Yeah, if you, if they go to. So let's go through the cases. Let's go back in. Yeah, let's go. Yeah. Let's go. Do you have them all there, Ryan? Yeah, I got them here.

In order. The first one they said was notices bulges, O-W-O, what's this? What does that mean? Which is some, it's some furry bullshit. What? It's, I mean, people can just go, people can just Google this. Provocative internet meme associated with furry fandom with strong sexual connotations. Notices.

Bulges. Okay. All right. I'll look it up so you don't have to describe it to me. Then hey fascists catch, which seems pretty clear what that is. And then it says, okay, it says the notice is bulge thing. Parodies, furries, and online role play subcultures is from Know Your Me. Yeah. Okay. All right. Go ahead. Oh, Bella Chow. So Bella Chow is a Italian anti-fascist song. So that, that. That is the thing that, that plus, hey, fascist catch is him signaling. That's where they would have gotten the Antifa stuff from this. Gotcha. And then if you read this, you are gay, LMAO. That gives Groyper troll. Which is sort of, by the way, similar to what we saw in Minneapolis, where you had troll language.

And this is just so, I mean, it just makes your stomach sink because. So you have two troll languages and then two antifah stuff. right so is the antifa stuff there to like convince people that this is that he's like we're going to find out more about this guy but you know it could be that he's an actual antifa guy you know who grew up in this household with this um you know his dad in the sheriff's department and then kind of rebelled against his dad that's certainly possible not an uncommon story happens could also be that this is a groi patrol um who's just it's You know, and that we have a troll assassination. I mean, it can also say troll was gay or something, yeah. It can also be, did you guys look into this, like, online cult that people were theorizing the Minnesota shooter was part of? Because they had all kinds of symbology that was all over the map, too. And I can't remember the name of these sort of, like, linked, like, neo-Nazi death cults, basically online radicalized death cults where some of the, some of the, some of the, some of the,

is like gaining notoriety and outdoing each other in your, you know, acts of terror and murder that you commit. And there are, you know, number of instances where the killers appeared to be linked to this, like, basically online death call. And that's another, that's another positive. Like, clearly this person was very online. Like, we can say that for sure with the language, you know, the use of memes, you know, what looked like a gaming keyboard in the paper? Yeah, I mean, just, and also just that's the life of a 22, two-year-old man, oftentimes in, in this day and age, not to sound like a million years old, but it's true. No, really. So person was clearly very online.

And there's certainly enough, you know, like just the fact that there's any anti-fascist stuff in there is going to be enough for Trump and co to say, to say this is 100% on the left. You know, it's radical Marxist, blah, blah, blah. So that's certainly what they'll be going with, you know, whether that is fully the case or not, I think it still remains to be seen because the indications are kind of all over the place. Like the, if you're reading this, you're gay, LMAO, I don't know, don't know, guys. Yeah, it's unclear right now which direction this is going in because to me, when I look back on the Minneapolis shooter, I don't think it's, it's, it's. unfair um for the right to say that whatever was going on ideologically on sex and gender clearly played into that but also it was troll language and when in that case the shooter died so it's almost impossible to decipher the troll language from a mentally ill person to know which direction

or the other that it was going in this person is alive this person is alive and actually as we pulled out of the presser. I just saw this update from the New York Times. Authorities in this news conference have described extensive evidence that they say ties the suspect in custody of the shooting of Charlie Kirk, including statements to relatives suggesting that he committed the crime, social media messages, and physical evidence. So I would say, at least in this case, the odds of us getting a much more complete picture of where this person was coming from, and this is a good thing, by the way, just exploded. Because otherwise you get into inkblot test territory where you can kind of latch on to one part of the picture or another part of the

picture and it's more easily used as a football. So if we can get more clarity in this case, I think that is like a huge blessing, but we'll see. Well, the other thing is just, you know, even if let's say that he had been killed or killed himself or, you know, the cops had killed him or he'd killed himself or whatever, then the conspiracies would also run wild, right? Like the fact that he they have him, that he is alive, that he can speak for himself, not that it's going to put all conspiracy theories to bed, but it will put, you know, it will make it more difficult for those to gain, I think, widespread public acceptance and traction. And I think it matters a lot that they have this guy. You know, listen, I've already talked about how I think Trump is like the worst person. to be our president at a moment such as this, part of why obviously opposed him into the election, part of why I was very deeply concerned about what a second Trump administration would mean and would do for this country and for the world at large. But, you know, I think like just the fact of having a suspect who at this point at least very much looks like this is the guy, at least then, you know, that it helps relieve some of the like the mystique and some of the, you know, of the theories and potentially some of the like, you know, follow on inspiration because, you know, you're going to see him not go out in a blaze of glory, but, you know, be humiliated in a prison jumpsuit and, you know, brought pretty low. So I think those, like, I think those things matter. I think that's, I hope that's true. I think that's likely true. On the other hand, it does bother or it does worry me that you get into, and it's too early even to be speculating too much, but you end up with like Charles May. Anson cult around someone, I don't mean like a literal cult, but like a cult following where people are obsessed and get fixated on someone in prison for, you know, a just cause or like even Mangione, you see some of this after he said he was innocent, which means you could like really be misdirecting people in different ways. Hopefully that doesn't happen here, but says like, I had nothing to do with this. I'm just to quote Lee Harvey Oswald. I'm just a patsy.

So I guess there's still always potential that things could go in a bad direction. But yeah, I agree, Crystal. I think this is likely a very good sign. Yeah. Well, and he's not as good looking as Mangione. So we'll be less inspirational for people. Tell me I'm wrong now. I don't see any Hawaiian.

I don't see any Hawaiian gear yet. Otherwise, I think you'd see a lot of people calling him a boogaloo dude. Oh, well, that was another thing. I mean, that movement basically collapsed. too um yeah that was that was around that was like a proud boy adjacent if i'm remembering correctly yeah but yeah but kind of wacky and cultish and um yeah and extremely online like trolley very trolley um and you know believed in like random violence and accelerationism and yep yeah well the other thing Massive, like, meme, that's, you know, hyper meme focused.

Yep. So this, like, so that, yeah, anyway. It's like if Lenin was meaning. It's God only knows what weird online subcultures exist that, you know, relatively normal people have no idea about, you know, be careful, parents, what your kids are consuming on the internet. I'll just say that. I mean, the other part, the other part to say about the press conference is cash would tell has been, you know, I mean, it's been ridiculous. during this whole thing, right, tweeting out, oh, we've got a subject in custody and then having hours later, well, turns out that guy was innocent. Sorry. Oops, we're still looking. They delayed

that press conference yesterday was supposed to be in the afternoon. And reportedly, you know, it ended up not happening until like 9 o'clock, 930 at night, reportedly because they were waiting for cash and maybe Bongino as well to get into town. And then they just, you know, stood there like, idiots during the press like they hadn't they didn't actually speak or participate at all so you delayed this press conference they claimed it because it was because of rapid developments which made everybody think oh they must be on the trail that was not the case at that point just so that he could be there for the photo op so clearly he was trying to project a lot of authority here in this particular press conference and a lot of command and using a lot of very

Trumpian language about how historic the manhunt was. And that's what happens when you let good cops be cops was one of the things that he said to try to cover the fact that he did not come across as a strong leader here. And there was also reporting about, listen, we know that a bunch of FBI agents have been pulled off of their jobs to assist ICE. We know some of them have been like roaming the streets in D.C. We know that the head of the Salt Lake City FBI office was fired. We're not really sure why in recent weeks as well. So a lot of CYA in this press conference from Cash Patel as well. My name is Ed.

Everyone say, hello, Ed. From a very rural background myself, my dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin. So, like, it's not like... What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that. No one expected to hear.

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hopeless cases to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Well, that's, I mean, again, what we're learning just minute by minute here is the suspect, I find this very disturbing. And I think it should continue to disturb people whether or not we can rightfully celebrate that the pictures were put out there and enough that someone came forward. That's all good. And I hope justice is served. This is a stone cold assassin. who was able to escape a densely, a densely packed event on a college campus and stay at large for over 24 hours. So God knows what could have happened in that time period.

Thankfully, you know, it doesn't look like anyone else was hurt. It doesn't look like that was the case. It doesn't look like more damage was done in the 24 hours. But if you have, again, a stone cold assassin who murders a political speaker, in broad daylight in a densely packed area, I have no stomach to celebrate their father walking them into or their father turning them in more than 24 hours after that happened. I don't think that, at least as of right now, reflects good police work at all. I actually think that picture of him from surveillance cameras

probably could have been released. I don't want a Monday morning quarterback to me, quarterback it, but it does seem to me that could have been released within three hours of the event happening rather than 20. So you have this mass panic, you have misinformation, being leaked to the press in the 24 hours, because there was a killer on the loose, presumably in Utah. So I just, I think, you know, it's too early to say any of that definitively because we don't know what was happening behind the scenes. But I think it's a very high possibility that this was actually a not great, a less than adequate investigation and law enforcement response. Not to mention the lack of prevention when we know that this guy had been spotted on the roof multiple times prior to Charlie Kirk's arrival.

And this tip was apparently, you know, provided and nothing done. You know, the law enforcement on the show, Charlie had his own security detail. And then there were apparently only six police officers there to secure the event, which, you know, I know, like certainly the landscape for people doing public. events of this sort going forward is going to be very, very different. I saw Ben Shapiro is apparently going to pick up the rest of this tour. This was supposed to be the first step, first stop on this new Charlie Kirk College tour. So he's going to pick that up. But, you know, also we have to look at like, were there things that were missed leading up to the day that could have prevented this horrific series of events, you know, for this horrific murder to start with.

Yeah. And I mean, obviously I have a lot of thoughts on that because part of like I'm on the board of a group that does lectures for students and student chapters and all of that and have done it myself. And I checked in with some of my friends in that space. And they made an interesting point, which is that our discourse has gotten so poisoned that it's now actually also difficult to do indoor events because when you do an indoor event, trolls will like buy up all of the tickets. And so it's actually why you've seen a lot of conservative speakers start doing outdoor events because it kind of makes it easier to be. be in front of the public. And when you're doing campus stuff, nobody has like the resources to screen the roofs, like local police departments don't, which to me is insane post-butler that, you know, people would do an outdoor event without screening the roof. But then we're also just talking about college campuses where kids should be free to have speakers in and yell at them and challenge them and scream at them or whatever. You shouldn't have to worry about a sniper on a roof. I mean, it's so insane that this is where we are, but you cannot be doing outdoor events

anymore where you aren't clearing a roof that's 200 feet away. I mean, that is such a pathetic commentary on the country. I mean, that is just unbelievable on a college campus where kids are just interacting with a 31-year-old, like, pundit. It was completely insane. Yeah. A student could have been hit. there's there's going to be as we learn more about this individual there's you know a lot of room for

commentary also about you know internet culture and what it's doing to everyone's brains you know um as appears to be a guy from a middle class family you know we don't know what the life was or what struggles might have existed or whatever but um you know i thought i actually thought Emily, where you were going with your commentary when you say, I don't have room for praise of, you know, a father bringing his son in 24 hours later is I thought you were saying, I don't have room for praise of that father. Thank God he did the right thing in the end. But you raised, you raised a killer. And I do think that there's something to be said about, you know, about that as well. So crazy. Yeah. And who, but this is what's so crazy about the internet too is that you have kids from seemingly normal backgrounds who are. parented well sometimes. And again, I'm not making assumptions in this case, but who are parented well. And don't need to be partying and doing drugs to get into the wrong crowd because it's coming through the screen. And that screen is their portal into darkness. Whereas in the past, there was more friction. You had to start, you know, getting involved in shady groups of

friends or whatever it was. But now there's just way less friction to go down dark. paths because it all comes from the little screen that you keep in your pocket. And that is horrifying. I can't imagine for parents how horrifying that is. Yeah, it is pretty horrifying. As a parent, I can tell you, it is pretty horrifying. Just like, you know, you definitely have to be aware of what your kids are doing with their time and who they're spending their time with if they're, you know, they're on their devices a lot. You need to. take note of what sort of content they're consuming. Internet is real life.

Yes. And I don't forget that. I mean, there's rampant speculation on the timeline right now, of course. Everybody, it's a Rorschach test. Everybody's seeing what they want to see in this guy and his profile and what he run on the bullets and whatever. So we'll let that speculation go on. But is there other stories you guys want to get to while we're waiting for more, any more news with regard to Tyler Robinson?

This is all I've been able to think about for the last couple of days. Yeah, I feel you on that. And it's crazy because there's a ton of stuff going. I mean, we had drones over the Polish skies. There's potential law enforcement going into Memphis. It's not as though this is a slow August news cycle as it was, you know, maybe a couple of weeks ago. This is a packed news cycle, and it just seems so hard to focus on anything else. Emily, how do you think that this murder will change, like, influencer culture and public events and how people think about their, you know, their, what they're doing?

doing how much they're available, what their security situation looks like. Like, what are you hearing from people on the conservative side on that? I mean, I'm scheduled to be on Megan Kelly's tour this fall, actually on a stop in San Antonio with Glenn. And you can imagine Glenn. I can't imagine the security that Glenn has to worry about constantly. So, I mean, I haven't heard anything in that space. I don't know what's up. I assume everything is going as planned. but I also just am so I don't know about you guys like I'm so blackpilled that a lot of what you know elite influencer prominent high profile influencer culture says it just seems like there's such a dark subculture of irony posting and all of that that I'm glad I liked how Dean Withers reacted I thought that was extremely classy and I thought his raw emotion was really powerful and I think you know probably

80% of Gen Z watches Dean Withers, whether on the left to the right, and says that was a really, that was the appropriate reaction. That's what this country should be about. Or Jenk. Like that was, that's exactly what this country should be about. But it doesn't, to some extent, this is, the problem is with the other 20% or 10% or whoever it is, who are not at all. I mean, they feel like they have no control or agency and they don't give a fuck what, you know, how Dean Withers. or Jenk reacts or how anyone else reacts. It just doesn't matter to them because it's all cringe and everything is ironic. And there's a nihilism to it that, I mean, I think influencers are probably going to do some really great stuff over the next year and be great about civic debate and push each other in public and, you know,

try to have like really hard conversations. I think that's great. Do maybe more of what we do. which is left on right as often as possible. I think that's all great. But to me, I don't know that that makes any difference whatsoever with the 20%, 10%, 5% of just utterly nihilistic people who are disillusioned with the political system.

Yeah, unfortunately, I'm less hopeful that that even will be the outcome. I mean, I guess for some influencers, but most of what I saw was, I mean, frankly, most of what I saw from the right from Trump on down was like, This is war. We want vengeance. Let's crack down on free speech. Let's destroy them. You know, they want to kill us. This is this is war, et cetera. And so I didn't really see many people out there using it as a moment to say, hey, let's come together and, you know, let's turn down the temperature and resolve our differences. So, and, you know, again, you've got an arsonist in the White House. I just, you know, Ryan, I know you were one of the reasons we really wanted to have you on yesterday. And you were traveling. So you're able to. but we were trying to think of historic parallels to this moment because, you know, as awful as it is for someone to take a shot of the president, that's part of American history. There's always going to be people who want to kill president, even, you know, even the legislators, the Minnesota legislators, that legislator who was killed and the legislators that were targeted, it's like, okay, well, there's still political officials, like, very unsettling. But part of what made this so shocking and really sort of solidified for me that we're living through this very different era, like it's not new. We're living through it is the fact that he is this, you know, he's an influencer. He's an activist. Obviously, it hits really close to home. But, you know, what do you see in terms of historic parallels? Are there other periods of American life that we can look to as being even somewhat analogous here?

yeah and i i watched you guys uh talk about it yesterday uh and sauger's right and so i'd yeah i had said you know i couldn't think of anything other than the the pre-civil war period which is very ominous because you know that that's a dark like 15 years heading into what then becomes uh the civil war and he he flagged the most famous example yesterday which was which is this guy elijah lovejoy who was i believe in ohio either kentucky or hio newspaper editor who who was a hardcore abolitionist and murdered by, you know, pro-slavery forces. His cousin, I think it was his brother. Oh, people can Wikipedia all this, but his brother was Owen Lovejoy, who was a congressman, who was anti-slavery congressman, who was also, it turns out, an ally of then-wig

politician Abraham Lincoln. And when Lincoln was running for president, it was it was really there was there was a lot of skepticism about him from the anti-slavery side you know was lincoln really with us or not and it was owen lovejoy who basically was lincoln's kind of validator to the left saying no like and you know no no he's one of us he just can't really say it because he's trying to win a national election um and owen lovejoy got so much of his own credibility not just from his own politics but from the fact that he was the brother of this martyred anti-slavery editor Elijah Lovejoy and martyrs play a radicalizing role in in all movements. You know, Chris Hedges mentioned this yesterday on Twitter

that when movements when somebody is martyred in a movement like Charlie Kirk just was, it it sanctifies violence no matter what that particular person felt about violence. Kirk's case he was you know strongly for discourse um you can hate what he said but he was about persuasion and argumentation you can you can hate that he was for argumentation on behalf of something that you think is terrible um but he was not advocating for for violence but what

happens with his martyrdom is that now people in the movement who call for discussion and debate will say no you know charlie kirk tried that or you know Elijah Lovejoy tried that and look what happened to him he was killed by our evil enemies and the only thing we can do is is war like that that's the only option that's that's left to us and if you don't do that you are betraying the legacy of our martyr and and it's very hard internally in those factional arguments to argue against that um even even if you can point to, not that Charlie Kirk is MLK,

but like MLK was very, you know, all about nonviolence. But what a lot of people said afterwards is, well, look what it got him. You know, it got him killed. The only path forward is to fight for him. And to fight violently for him. Well, yeah, because it's,

I forget who said this, but it, um, it's, it, shows someone who's like trying to have a back and forth and trying to say like let's let's debate let's uh you know debate really rowdily um if that's an adverb uh but let's let's do it and that effort was ended with a bullet so what message i said people use that and say we don't do that anymore like it's not worth it you're gen z Charlie Kirk has been an ever present fixture of your social media diet

for five to ten years. And that doesn't matter whether you're political or not. This kid was on South Park. This guy was on South Park because he was well known enough to be parodied on a pop culture platform like that. And you have for years been scrolling through this guy, yelling at the libs, debating on college campuses, all of that on a podcast. And suddenly the video that you scroll past is him engaged in that very same act. and ending literally in a geyser of blood. The point that some people will take from that is, you know, dialogue doesn't work.

It doesn't work because you can end it with a bullet. And that's a horrifying, there's a horrifying takeaway that people might walk away with. Yeah. Chris Hedges wrote a piece, Ryan, I don't know if you read it, that talked some about, you know, the role of the martyr. And I thought made some very salient points about the way that a martyr can be used in a movement to further radicalize. And this isn't speculative. Like you can go and look on the timeline at the number of people who are saying that's it. Gloves are off now.

We're waging war. They want to kill us. And then the President of the United States, as we played earlier, saying, you know, well, you know, it would be nice if we could solve it at the ballot box. But that's not really possible because it's we don't even have a ballot box. It's so rigged, et cetera, et cetera. So, you know, that's what's, like, when you add those, the sense of political existential stakes, which in some ways, you know, I mean, the states of politics are high, right? There's, I don't want to sugarcoat it. Like, there is a reality that the political stakes are high, in fact. And then you add to it this tinderbox of gun culture, untreated mental illness, mass inequality, increasing the economics that, the economics, We haven't been covering the economic numbers this week, but they're not looking great. Things continue to trend, higher inflation, higher unemployment, more jobless claims, et cetera.

And then you have these other existential fears over AI, over climate crisis, over, you know, migration for some. See that as an existential, you know, existential type fear. and you're looking at you're looking at a powder keg that's that's the sense and you know Ryan do you think that the so I don't I don't particularly enjoy the pre-Civil War comparison that one is really scary I don't love the 70s comparison either but I guess it's somewhat less scary like do you think do you see parallels with that time period as well the yes and more so with then than with pre-Civil war because As you pointed out on the show yesterday, the, the slaver class and also the anti-slavery folks

properly understood the fight over slavery as existential and fundamental to the soul of the country. What is what is that today? Like that doesn't exist. Like the two parties agree on like most things. My name is Ed. Everyone say hello Ed. I'm from a very rural background myself. My dad is a farmer and my mom is a cousin.

So, like, it's not like... What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? I know it sounds like the start of a bad joke, but that really was my reality nine years ago. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. On stage stood a comedian with a story that no one expected to hear. Well, 22nd of July 2015, a 23-year-old man had killed his family.

And then he came to my house. So what do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? A new podcast called Wisecrack, where stand-up comedy and murder takes center stage. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, couple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. A foot washed up a shoe with some bones in it. They had no idea who it was.

Most everything was burned up pretty good from the fire that not a whole lot was salvageable. These are the coldest of cold cases, but everything is about to change. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. A small lab in Texas is cracking the code on DNA. Using new scientific tools, they're finding clues in evidence so tiny, you might just miss it. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. On America's Crime Lab, we'll learn about victims and survivors, and you'll meet the team behind the scenes at Othrum,

the Houston Lab that takes on the most hopeless cases, to finally solve the unsolvable. Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. What would you do if one bad decision forced you to choose between a maximum security prison or the most brutal boot camp designed to be hell on earth? Unfortunately for Mark Lombardo, this was the choice he faced. He said, you are a number, a New York state number, and we own you. Shock incarceration, also known as Burrador. boot camps are short-term, highly regimented correctional programs that mimic military basic training. These programs aim to provide a shock of prison life, emphasizing strict discipline, physical training,

hard labor, and rehabilitation programs. Mark had one chance to complete this program and had no idea of the hell awaiting him the next six months. The first night was so overwhelming, and you don't know who's next to you. And we didn't know what to expect in the morning. Nobody tells you anything. Listen to shock incarceration on the IHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Brian, I don't know if you've, you've ever read the biography of Barry Goldwater that Lee Edwards wrote. He was a historian.

He was actually at the Heritage Foundation for a really long time, but he was Goldwater's Coms Director. He was at the March on Washington. He was involved in a lot of the conservative political activism in the rise of the Reagan Revolution. And my friend Chris Bedford and I talked to him in June of 2020 as D.C. was like in a state of rolling crisis and asked him how it compared to 1968. And I've taken a lot of heat for reposting this just in the last like, I don't know, 48 hours, whatever it is now. But he said, he told us when we asked how it compared to 1968. I was kind of like pushing him, I thought, to say like, no, it's not as bad. Don't be hysterical, whatever. And he said now it's work. than 1968 because some of those like institutional points of consensus have frayed and that is a very, very different time to end. That is like so that you do, the Civil War parallels feel more accurate in a point like that. So guys, I want to, sorry, people are sharing a clip and now let me see if I can play it of the governor talking about how family members, believe that Robinson had become more political in recent years.

So let me go ahead and see if I can share this clip and we can react to it on the other side. Investigators interviewed a family member of Robinson who stated that Robinson had become more political in recent years. The family member referenced a recent incident in which Robinson came to dinner prior to September 10th. And in the conversation with another family member, Robinson mentioned Charlie Kirk was coming to UVU. They talked about why they didn't like him and the viewpoints that he had. The family member also stated Kirk was full of hate and spreading hate. The family member also confirmed Robinson had a gray Dodge Challenger.

Investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson. Investigators interviewed that roommate who stated that his roommate, referring to Robinson, made a joke on Discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on Discord. He opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate. These photos consisted of various messages,

including content of messages between the phone contact name Tyler with an emoji icon and Robinson's roommate's device. So the commentary there again is that, that spoke to a relative who had been with Tyler just recently. Tyler mentioned Charlie's coming into town, talked about why he hated him and said he was full of hate. I can tell you what a lot of people on the right are saying online is they're tying it into, oh, he went to college and became radicalized.

So, you know, and radicalized against the right. and, you know, became this, like, murderous Antifa guy. And so you can already see, you know, the, obviously this administration already has been very aggressive against universities. The right has been very, this has been part of a political ideological project anyway. So I fully suspect that piece will be used further to go after. And maybe this is, maybe this is me just reaching for what I want to be true. but if filled with hate recently becoming filled with hate

um would they be using that in the context of becoming anti-fascist I mean I just I couldn't tell like that filled with hate feels I couldn't tell if he was saying that he was filled with hate

Tyler or whether he was saying Charlie Kirk was filled with hate, and that's why he didn't like him. Right, right. It was a little bit unclear in what the governor was saying there, but people are taking it. People are taking it to mean that Tyler was saying Kirk was filled with hate. Does he say, did he say anything? And maybe we can find more of this clip, but did he say anything about what these messages were? The clip cut off where he, before he told, like, what the jokes were that he was telling

and what the messages were? I haven't seen, have not seen that, but we'll keep. We'll keep looking and seeing if they indicated what those Discord messages were, because, yeah, that would certainly be, that would certainly be relevant to know. And this, you know, we don't need to even continue finding ways to underscore this. But the fact that someone was posting messages on Discord, I think, you know, we've seen the furry reference so far, discord, that's indicative of somebody who is deep, deep. in online culture. Yeah, the radicalization seems less to be due with

whatever academic institution he was at and more to do with whatever Discord server he was at. It's crazy. Also, the the arrows, it looks like,

and maybe people have some better clue into this, you know, where they said the arrow down, right? Upside, upright, down, down. Is it a hellfire too? I mean,

helldivers. too? Or what the... That's what I thought to is run some video game meme. The Times says the list of messages on the suspects casing is described by Governor Cox include apparent references to online culture and gaming, quote, up arrow, right arrow, and three down arrow symbols, as described by Cox, maybe a reference to a sequence of moves on a controller that release a bomb in the video game hell divers. Wow.

Another engraving, quote, notices, bulges, OWO, what's this? is a phrase used for trolling in online role play communities. Yeah. And it's a furry specific, I guess. I don't know. The internet was a mistake. I don't know, guys, what to tell you? I don't know what to tell you.

Xi is on to something in China. Shut it down. I mean, this is, yeah. I mean, the most 2025 thing you can imagine. Like, he's, Gamer, Gamer troll. Brain rot, gamer troll engravings on, you know, bullets that are used to murder a prominent activist and online influencer. And with the videos being streamed into our feeds basically in real time so that we can all over and over again watch, watch one of the goryest, most horrific things you can possibly imagine. Like, what, what hell are we?

living through. Yeah, seriously. I, yep, it's hard to understand right now what this is going to do to zoomers who have already seen so much. I mean, I think back, I'm slightly younger than you guys, you guys were like, your brains were fully formed when some of the, like, beheading videos were hitting Twitter in, you know, circa like 2013. I forget, when Foley was, but I saw that when I was like probably 16. And it's not normal for the human brain to experience that. It's not normal for the species to experience that where it's, you can zoom in, you can pause.

It's posted so many times in the hours after Charlie was shot. It was, you know, I probably saw it 15 different times on my feed. You know, if you were trying to get the news. on a mainstream website. It's not like this was in the bowels of, you know, something somebody downloaded on like bear share and sent to their friends over email. Like, that's not what it was.

It was on a mainstream website, and it sounds trite to us now, but I'm just thinking as somebody who was like probably 16 and saw a human being beheaded multiple times. Like, this is so much worse. I mean, they saw Brian Thompson. They saw all of that.

over. And it's a level of exposure to violence that previously only would have existed in like war zones. But even then, you're experiencing something physically and in person and the disconnected nature of watching a total stranger that you will never meet, you do not know, and then being incentivized to weigh in either with a great thought that's classy or with a horrible thought because the algorithm that pushed that video to you is also demanding a response from you. That's right. We are so absolutely fucking cooked.

We're just cooked. Yeah. I mean, what else can you say? Like, and that's before we even talk about the, you know, the images of a genocide that we've been seeing every single day, the horrific video of Arena who was murdered on a, you know, public transit. And this is, like, maybe I'm misremembering, but the beheading videos, like, you had to like actually, like, I never watched it. You had to, like, kind of intentionally. This was almost unavoidable. I had a craig.

Go ahead, Ryan. No, no, I, I, I, we were breaking that in real time. And I remember I had it up and then I put it in a different tab because I didn't want to see it. Yeah. And then as, and then as I'm going back to working later, I clicked on that tab not knowing what it was and there it was. And it's still in my mind. Yeah. I mean, that image of Charlie, I don't think will, will ever.

be out of my mind because it was, I mean, it was horrifying. And I just, you know, one thing that I can't quite fully describe or put my finger on, but like, think about, okay, this killer puts these brain rot memes, engraves them intentionally, like went out of his way to do this so that you and I and Ryan and the whole world could talk about it and decipher his internet memes that he put on there for, for lulls. And there's this sense of. There's this sense of disconnect and unreality where it's like it's that nihilistic, nothing matters, you know, the more like outrageous thing you say, the more like disgusting and hateful thing you say, the more sort of notoriety you get. And this sense that other humans are quote unquote NPCs, right? they're not really real. I mean, there's just this, I don't know, this sense of sort of disconnect

from your fellow human. And there are always going to be sociopathic type people out there who just naturally have that disconnect from humanity and are able to, you know, pull a trigger and blow someone to bits from, you know, 200 yards away and, you know, have no regrets about it or whatever. Or a knife in the case of arena. Right. Like that's a, right. To some extent. So that was a very intimate murder, you know, that's very intimate to be that close. and to murder someone in that way. But, yeah, I just, I have a feeling like this type of internet nihilism is converting many more people into basically, like, sociopaths with little sense of fellow common

humanity. Yep. And that's what, like, I'm genuinely not trying to make this a partisan or anti-Trump comment. I'm saying this as somebody who's Charlie Kirk's age, 32, he was about to turn 32. When Donald Trump says what he said about elections, that is something you heard from the fringes when I was growing up when we were growing up. And the fact that that came out of the President of the United States, the President of the United States's mouth after so many people in Gen Z just saw what they saw. I think genuinely like boomers, people in Trump's demo have

no idea what type of rocket fuel that is for nihilism and violence in danger. And it horrifies me to think about that combination. It really, really does. I mean, Ryan, the, you know, some of the violent weather underground and those type of movements. I mean, I feel like that comes from a similar place of like, you know, oh, well, we, the political system, like, failed us. And so, you know, there's, this is the only thing that Matt, this is the only thing that could work. I mean, you can also see it in terms of like, um, uh, this, you know, the parallels are not perfect guys here. So forgive me. But, um, the Hamas, Palestinian, like, violent resistance, too. It's like, hey, we tried, we tried this thing didn't work. So our only path forward is, is violence.

Yeah, the difference between, you know, that kind of organized violence, um, and this. Is that what you can hate it, but it has, and you can disagree. Like, I think the weathermen were reckless adventurists who, you know, on and on. People don't care about my, you know, weather autograph and critique. But like, the point is, like, they had, they had an idea, like, they were going to spark a revolution, you know, whatever. Like, it had an, it had a one, two, three. There was a grand strategy. I think it's an outrageous one, two, three.

and stupid and counterproductive and blah, blah, but it was a one, two, three. Like, what is this? Like, this feels like trolling. It feels like taking someone's life in the most, with a flick of a wrist. For personal catharsis.

For a personal catharsis and just joking like, like you're in a Discord server. Like to take someone's life with references to like, video games and furry memes is so sacrilegious to humanity so keep that on discord

like you want to feel blackpilled the weather underground could actually organize a group of physical people to plan that is not they blew themselves up but at least they were able to get more than one person in a room

They were not, yeah, they were, right, right, right. And so that's a, a huge difference from a lone wolf, internet radicals, or internet nihilists. Because think about, I mean, think about this, he was not part of a literal underground community of dozens of of people who are organizing in back rooms. This is somebody who was alone. When you are part of a radical revolutionary group, whether it was right or left, underground or whatever else, these are people who had, like, that was a sense of purpose and belonging in community. This is somebody who has no, and that's all, like everything that Ryan said underscore like awful, horrible way to find community through violence like that. But this is somebody who is who's trying to find purpose in saying there is no. purpose and it's trying to make that point the the oh my god i mean it's just so depressing to think

about i think i have a clip here that's a a little bit more um of the the family member stuff if you want to roll back through this again just like so we can see if we how are you able to share it right yeah yeah let me do it here um the family member also confirmed robinson had a gray dodge challenger investigators identified an individual as the roommate of Robinson. Investigators interviewed that roommate, who stated that his roommate, referring to Robinson, made a joke on Discord. Investigators asked if he would show them the messages on Discord.

He opened it and showed several messages to investigators and allowed investigators to take photos of the screen as each message was shown by Robinson's roommate. These photos consisted of various messages, including content of messages between the phone contact name Tyler with an emoji icon and Robinson's roommate's device. The content of these messages included messages affiliated with the contact Tyler stating a need to retrieve a rifle from a drop point. Leaving the rifle in a bush messages related to a to visually watching the area where a rifle was left and a message referring to having left the rifle wrapped in a towel. The Messages also refer to engraving bullets and a mention of a scope and the rifle being unique.

Messages from the contact Tyler also mentioned that he had changed outfits. Wow. I know there has been speculation as well as to the writing on those casings, those bullet casings, and I believe we have that as well. Did we already do this? And I will share that with you. Yeah, we already got the casings. But the, um, so, so in my understanding right, this man murdered Charlie Kirk and then went on a discord server to be like, talking about the gun and talking about changing his clothes and basically like writing about it. And asking his roommate for help.

Is that what I'm understanding here? He's doing that police talk, which makes it deliberately difficult to translate into English. But that does feel like... That is wild. That is wild. You did this and you got away. You left your gun and you're like talking about the gun, talking about where you left it, talking about how you changed your clothes, bragging about this to your buddy on a Discord server. Like what?

And it took 24 plus hours. They did not until this person's, again, like until this person's dad turned them in, this was in a public place full of CCTV at a densely crowded event. and this person is bragging about it on a discord server afterwards. And the FBI, more than 24 hours in, about 36 hours in, had nothing except for, by the grace of God, this person's father had the willpower to turn them in. So increasingly looking like, from my perspective right now is increasingly looking like possible antifa nihilism, but also horrific law enforcement response. I mean, just what the hell? It's crazy. That's so dangerous.

It's so dangerous. Yeah. And then Cash Patel has the temerity to go out and brag about how historic and how incredible, how incredible of a job they'd done. I mean, it's just, it's unbelievable. I mean, the truth is you don't, law enforcement doesn't have to be that great. If a picture gets out. Like, you're going to get, you're going to get found. Yeah, because you have almost all of the public, right, and almost all the public is going to be on your side, right?

There's going to be very few that would actually be willing to, you know, harbor the, the Charlie Kirk murderer or not turn them in, you know. Right. So unless he's, you know, you'd have to wear a ski mask and then people will be like, what the hell are you doing wearing a ski mask? Right. Now, maybe if this was during the pandemic, maybe it could have snuck in. You could have gotten away with it, yeah. Or if you're posing as a nice agent. You could pull that off.

That's true. Yeah, I'm an ice agent on the roof. Yeah, actually. Yeah. That would have been even more of a 2025 murder. And then the other aspect of it, you know, to add to the sort of dystopian unreality of the whole thing is I know you guys saw this like influencer who was there who was posting to TikTok, like follow me on TikTok and like mugging for the camera.

Which again is like, you know, even as you're living through this. horror, you're still like somehow disconnected from it. Even as you're like in the real world, you're still disconnected from it. And after the fact, I know we like apologize, I'll be a better creator or whatever, but you're like disconnected from the very reality and the humanity that you are existing with and living through. Because your reality is that your career is tied to the algorithm. And so you are, this is like Marshall McLuhan, you are as a human being changed by the medium that is controlling your life. And these mediums are not changing us for the better. There's just clearly, we are being warped into our own thought processes, having dictation

by the algorithm, because you start thinking in terms of the algorithm. And people need to be extremely careful about it. And we aren't. And the tech companies aren't. The tech company is X included. Elon Musk is condemning all of this. But he owns a company that has one of the most major roles in poisoning us algorithmically. Poisoning us algorithmically. So it's just like, it reminds me of the video of that went viral in a totally different vein of that young man who was saying he was working really hard and couldn't get ahead that went mega viral like a month ago.

And it was, he was dead on in his description of the economy. It was accurate. It was poignant. And then you look at the bottom of the TikTok and it says things like, like hashtag follow me and it's think about that I mean hashtag follow me hashtag so like you had hashtags basically being like I want to become an influencer something to that extent and it's just like that is just you I don't know that you could possibly be much more depressed about the state of the country yeah and I think it's an accelerant like I don't think it starts with

the social media I think it's it's an accelerant the the internet culture um for a society that's already sick in any number of ways. But, yeah, I don't know what to say about it. I mean, we can wrap up here pretty soon because I don't see, you know, I don't know what else we're going to get right now. But Ryan, you got any last thoughts you want to add in here? No, I mean, the only, you know, for people like myself who don't want this to be like a leftist, the only hope is that he's trolling with his, hey, fascist catch and that sort of stuff.

And the Bella Chow. And the Bella Chow, that that's, that's, that's some kind of a troll and a, in a, in a misdirection. Yeah. I think, I think I hear Mac. What's Mac saying? Oh, no, that was, actually, it was, you heard yourself through my microphone because. Oh, gotcha. So, you know, these are just, you know, dark, dark, dark times.

Really. And it's, uh, it's, it's still hard to believe that Charlie Kirk dead. Yeah. It is. I was just thinking that. It feels crazy. And I mean,

that's the other aspect of this is, Emily, you brought up like the parosocial relationship that millions have with him and will experience this as if, you know, someone who is genuinely close to them was killed. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Mm-hmm. I mean, it's so like, and that can go in really positive directions for some people. But again, I'm not worried about the people who are. reacting healthily to this because I know that there's a large group of people that aren't going to react healthfully to this because they have no community. They have no friends,

but they have a computer. And I'm just going to put this, before we wrap, I just want to put this image that we've gotten in of Charlie's widow, now widow, on the screen because it is just, you just look at her face and the video emerged of her exiting Air Force 2 with Ushavance and just gripping onto Ushavans. Obviously, J.D. was very close friends with Charlie. Charlie helped get J.D. onto the ticket by lobbying behind the scenes with Dawn Jr.

And so this is something that this administration, I mean, again, at the White House yesterday, those young Trump staffers, the level of doom that was ever present hanging in the air the entire day and shock, it just, you know, it's one way, I think, you know, we're talking now about how people in the public are experiencing this

and that's right, because it's crazy, but just also think about how closely this is touching the way that, you know, we talked about this earlier, the reactions from this administration, this is so, so personal. So it's a really scary time. Yeah. Yeah.

And Trump had no, like, direct personal connection to big balls. This is someone he knew and knew closely and, you know, was looped in with the administration in any number of ways. So we'll see where we go from here. Anything else, guys? I just hope you guys stay safe and... Yeah. Appreciate you guys. I'll say that.

And, you know, I let's... We'll end on the good news. It's good news that this guy got caught. Good news that he's in custody. Good news that, you know, they've got him. And I'm sure we're going to learn a lot more here. And, you know, well, if there's anything that pops up big over the weekend, guys, one or the other of us will try to cover it. Otherwise, Sagar and I will be in studio for a normal show on Monday and we will see it then. Pull people out of nihilism, by the way. Sorry, I just want to say it because, like, we have some very online people and we're grateful for all of you. If you see you see. see someone going down a dark path. Do what you can to pull them out of it. That's the best we can all do right now. Yep. All right, guys.

Talk to you soon. I just normally do straight stand-up, but this is a bit different. What do you get when a true crime producer walks into a comedy club? Answer, a new podcast called Wisecrack, where a comedian finds himself at the center of a chilling true crime story.

Does anyone know what show they've come to see? It's a story. It's about the scariest night of my life. This is Wisecrack. Available now. Listen to Wisecrack on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Smokey the Bears.

Then you know why Smokey tells you when he sees you passing through. Remember, please be careful. It's the least that you can do. Because it's what you desire. Don't play with matches. Don't play with fire. After 80 years of learning his wildfire prevention tips, Smokey Bear lives within us all.

Learn more at smoky bear.com, and remember, only you can prevent wildfires. Brought to you by the USDA Forest Service, your state forester, and the ad council. Every case that is a cold case that has DNA. Right now in a backlog will be identified in our lifetime. On the new podcast, America's Crime Lab, every case has a story to tell, and the DNA holds the truth. He never thought he was going to get caught, and I just looked at my computer screen. I was just like, ah, gotcha. This technology is already solving so many cases.

Listen to America's Crime Lab on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an IHeart podcast.