Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - 9/15/26: Macklemore Dropped, Pablo Torre Returns, Cuban Official Interview

Episode Date: September 15, 2026

On today's show Krystal and Saagar discuss Macklemore being dropped from his tour for saying 'Free Palestine'. Then sports journalist Pablo Torre returns to take a victory lap on the Clippers scandal and Ryan brings on a foreign delegate from Cuba to hear the latest from inside the country.   Pablo Torre: https://www.youtube.com/@pablotorrefindsout   To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: www.breakingpoints.com    Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/   See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Listen to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez on the IHeart Radio. Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, everybody. Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes here from the Amy and T.J. podcast. We're going to cover everything you need to know during this heated political season. Yes, we just saw Lindsey Graham the death of a long time senator. Also, we've got a couple of missing members of Congress. Also, we got a lot of members of Congress behaving badly. We've got accusations, allegations flying all day long on Capitol Hill. Listen to Amy and T.J.

on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Hey guys, ready or not, 2024 is here, and we here at Breaking Points, are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, ad staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that, let's get to the show. insane situation unfolding with the artist. Macklemore has been very outspoken in his pro-Palestine advocacy. He has been canceled from the Ed Sheeran tour after he had the audacity to say this.

I've been trying to figure out a way to say this all day. One of the reasons why I wanted to come on this tour was because I wanted to stand up here on stages and stadiums across America and say two words that are very very. very near and dear to my heart, free Palestine. To all of my Jewish brothers and sisters, criticism of Israel, criticism of apartheid, being against genocide in no way is a criticism of you. My message is for peace, love,

for all human beings to be treated with dignity, respect, and equality. So I say free Palestine. So that's it. That's what he said. Shouldn't be controversial. Was not even remotely anti-Semitic. In fact, you hear him say there to clarify, this isn't about Jewish people.

This is about criticism of the nation state called Israel. And yet this led to a total freak out. I don't know if you guys followed the whole thing with Pink, who was also on the tour, was criticizing him. There was a whole entire meltdown. Wait, pink? Oh, you can know this? No, I missed this part. Sorry. Yeah, there's a whole long thing from Pink and she's upset and all of this sort of stuff.

So in any case, it has culminated in McLemore being kicked off of the tour. And now from McLemore himself, we are getting some of the backstory. Let's put D3 up on the screen. This is a lengthy Instagram pose. I'm not going to read all of it. The TLDR here is that Robert Kraft, who is the owner of the Patriots, and also So controls that stadium, went to Ed Shearren and said, nice tour you got there. James something happens to it.

He organized behind the scenes with other stadium owners to say, we're not going to host your little tour. If you keep McLemore on stage, if you keep him on the tour, you are not going to be able to perform. And Ed Shearren caved to the pressure and said, okay, then I'll kick him off. Right. And what McLemore says here is that Shearin was like, oh, I don't want to take sides. Of course, people have pulled up images of him holding the Ukraine flag and having no issue taking sides in that particular war. However, when it comes to Israel, Palestine, he didn't want to quote unquote take sides. But of course, he has taken a side.

He's taken the side of Robert Kraft, who has said you are not allowed to say free Palestine and go on tour. Keep in mind, as many others have pointed out on Twitter, literally Kanye West, who has a song called Heil Hitler is on tour right. now and has dates at some of the very stadiums that threatened to boycott and not allow Ed Shear and McLeon. Yeah. And, you know, before we even get to the craft and what you said, sure, first of all, Kanye literally is on tour. Second, how many of these artists are wife beaters, criminals, and drug dealers, nobody cares? Yeah. Literally nobody cares. Jasmine Crocket out there giving an award to Chris Brown. Chris Brown. Domestic abuser and criminal. All right. You know, and you know what? Fine. People want to go

see the concert? Yeah. That's they're right. You know? I don't think this. Yeah. Whatever. Didn't seem to me that so many people were upset about that at the concert. I mean, I didn't even know Ed Shear was on tour. No offense, Ed. You're a nice guy. But, you know, or I guess you, I thought you were a nice guy.

But let's get now to a Robert Kraft statement. And very fitting. We're about to do the segment with Pablo. This all come. I mean, Robert Craft is not just Robert Craft. I mean, stadium owner. He's an owner of the New England Patriots. He is one of the most influential NFL owners in the entire sport.

He has relationships. You say. Alleged. No, actually, I don't know if it's alleged because did he plead no contest? I'll look at it. Or is it what happened? Maybe I think they dropped the charges against him, but I don't think he disputes what exactly went down in that Asian massage parlor. But now, let's go ahead and put D5 up here on the screen. This is Robert Kraft's statement. He says, Gillette Stadium has a longstanding commitment to providing a welcoming environment for all guests and ensuring that events held at our venue do not provide a platform for hate speech.

Based on McElmore's recent actions, materials shared from the stage during Ed Shearron's shows, and a broader history of anti-Semitic rhetoric and imagery, we believe, has been deeply offensive and hurtful to the Jewish community. We have determined his participation as his concerts would cross that line. This decision is not about diminishing the suffering of Palestinians, or denying anyone the right to advocate on their behalf, their pain and loss are real.

But the responsibility of Hamas, a United States and globally, including designated terrorist organization, and immeasurable suffering, I mean, this is illegible. Too many lives have been lost. There has been too much suffering, but only sharing selective information and ignoring the actions of Hamas

is not an honest and only advances, more divisiveness and hate. Over many decades, I have directed resources to Palestine, etc. And he eventually says, I would welcome the opportunity to sit down with McElmore and discuss the facts because ultimately our goal is the same peace for all people and end to suffering and an end to all hate. And you will be shocked to learn, as I've covered here many times in the past. Robert Kraft was the top donor over at Columbia University. He was massively influential with what happened there on their campus with the protests. He also obviously was the

major funder and proponent, if you'll remember that Super Bowl ad, the stop, the blue square, stop anti-Semitism. Oh, that was him? That's all him. Yeah. And so, you know, I honestly don't think we should ignore this. You know, at first you're like, okay, it's silly. But for me, like, it's one thing, Patriots owner, Robert Kraft, like, you know, he's been

crazy Zionists for a long. He makes the Patriots players go over to Israel. He's been doing this for years, Tom Brady and all that. But creating a boycott for all the. other stadium owners in the country. That is low-key crazy. That is woke 1.0 insane style behavior at a corporate high level. And look, McElmore didn't do anything wrong.

We all know it. All right. It's the most mild-mannered. Colorably say it was offensive. And that's the part where I'm like, this is scary in terms of, you know, literal woke 1.0 major opponent here. You know, anytime you get Amazon and all these other people, cartel, you start firing people for saying completely anodyne stuff.

All lives matter. Nobody should have been canceled over that. I would put this in the same thing. He didn't say anything wrong. It's crazy. And Ed Sharon, what a little bitch. What a bitch. Loser.

Like, I mean, and first of all, if you were worried about this, don't have McElmore on your tour. He literally did a whole song about Hins Hall. I mean, he is known as he is pro-Palestine. Like, he has been an advocate. He has been one of the few artists who has truly. come forward and spoken out. So if you don't want any of this, then I'm not sure what you're thing to begin with. But this notion that, oh, I'm not going to take a side. You did take a side.

It's very obvious you took a side. And then also just from even if you are completely amoral and you don't care about little children being bombed and the largest population of child amputees on the planet and any of that, let's say you don't care, you just care about yourself and your career. How is this going for you? You look terrible. He's losing fans by the droves. Like his Instagram page is in full decline because of what he's done here. Whereas if you would stood up to them, do you know how much of a hero you would be? You could have come forward publicly instead of under all this pressure. I'm not going to buckle. What's the good of all the money? That's what I get. You know, I just looked it up. And you don't think that other stadium owners would want to host you.

You're one of the biggest artists on the planet. Like, of course. Yeah. These people, they'll sell tickets for Kanye, they don't give a shit what you say. They're still tickets for Chris Brown. I mean, even, you know, let me put this in terms that Robert Kraft understands. You could be a wife-beater. You could be, you know, literal. How many Patriots players, not just paid-how many NFL players are, like, actively either under investigation, previously indicted, alleged for domestic.

I mean, Deshawn Watson is a starting quarterback in the NFL. Everybody just moves past. I guess, you know, Kraft will, whatever. him and Deshawn Watson in terms of their massage instincts. But my point is just here, like, with Ed Shearin, $370 million estimated network, or sorry, estimated British pounds. So that's 470 million USD.

What's the point of all the money, man? If apparently him and McElmore were friends for like 13 years. You know, even if you disagree, which I don't even know if he has a position or any of that, It's like really, dude, like your little stadium grubbiness is really, it's worth it? And even, let's say that he doesn't have a position. Like, do you have a position on free speech? Yeah. You really think that someone should be pulled from your whole tour?

I mean, probably not. To be honest, he probably doesn't. Just because they said free Palestine? That's so pathetic. It's so pathetic. So anyway, complete and utter insanity. Complete cowardice on the part of Sharon. Shout on to McElmore.

He's a real one. Like, he has already paid a price. in terms of the sort of deals and exposure that he could have and, you know, has continued to be willing to pay that price. And I thought his statement, I didn't read it because it's too long, but I thought it was very well put. And he said, look, I'm not a victim. I'm fine.

Keep the focus on the people of Palestine and the people in the world who are genuinely suffering. And so I think that's an important thing to keep in mind here as well. I think it's totally nuts. I really do. Okay, let's get to Pablo. Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of suspense.

Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode 8 before you're done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.ca for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything.

When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for 9. months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the survivor files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable. I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them.

There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality, welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsesives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed. I'm obsessed.

From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is the Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to pro society on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. See you between the pages. I'm very excited now to be joined by our friend Pablo Torre,

one of the most impactful sports journalists in the United States. Pablo, thanks for coming on. Appreciate it. Thank you, guys. Thank you. It is, as always, a very busy week, and you guys have been on this from the start, and I appreciate you chronicling the journey. Oh, we're only elevating the incredible work that you do. Let's put it up here on the screen.

Steve Balmer, who is now issuing an apology. He says, for my Los Angeles Clippers followers, this has been a very difficult time for everybody associated with the Clippers. For that, I have sincere regrets. I want to apologize to our fans, our employees, and my fellow NBA team owners for the distraction and distress this is this cause, for which I accept responsibility as principal owner. We are committing to putting this chapter behind us. We have communicated that we are complying with penalties assessed by the league,

have paid the fine, and are moving forward. While there are still disagreements concerning the findings in the report, this is not where I want to focus. Team owners should support, not distract. The challenges ahead of us are significant, but so is our resolve. We continue to build our team and invest in our community. So, Pablo, there's a lot going on here. And you actually, I know, have been probing even deeper beyond a lot of this surface

level kind of corporate speak. Tell us what to look for, especially in light of the DOJ, potentially launching a criminal investigation in Steve Bomber. Yeah, so the New York Times reported days before this. We had not heard from Steve Palmer for about 11 days since he had threatened to sue the NBA. and whoever else he felt worthy of a lawsuit as a result of the investigation. But days before this, Steve Ballmer, his clippers, they were announced in the New York Times as a target of the Department of Justice as part of their investigation into these secret side deals

for Kauai Leonard. And so there's at least one subpoena. And I say all of this to say that this is not sports court anymore we're dealing with. This is the real world. And so when he releases a statement in which he says, notably that he apologizes for the stress and distraction caused by this whole story, by this saga, but does not admit to having done anything. In fact, as you rightfully pointed out, he still has pushback on the findings of the report.

What he's doing is trying to have his cake and eat it to. He's trying to say, I would like to go and move forward as an owner in the sport. He is not going to sue the NBA. He was trying to put this behind him. But at the same time, in the real world, there are. federal agencies, and the DOJ is now joining the SEC and prove, the SEC has already been probing two of the companies that he did these side deals with, aspiration and dectronics.

What he's trying to do is say, I cannot wait to move on, but also I cannot admit to anything I've done that might be interesting to federal investigators. And so he's in this strange but conspicuous sort of in between zone in which he's not quite saying the thing, and the reason he's not saying it is the government. So just to back up for people who may not have followed this story closely, what you uncovered and you and your team want to pull its surprise for was the fact that the Clippers were circumventing the salary cap for this player, Kauai Leonard, by lining up these side deals with the companies

that you mentioned before. And effectively, you know, he's getting paid millions of dollars by these companies to do literally nothing. So that was, that is what the scandal is. They now, you know, there was an extensive report. They got caught red-handed. A significant penalties have been meted out. I want people to know, how did you pick up the scent of this? Because you did, you and your team did some incredible investigative journalism to be able to uncover all of this before anyone else caught on to what was going on here. Yeah, some of the stuff we do is new and sort of novel. We do it on our YouTube channel and that is, and our podcast, and we've been derided by Steve Ballmer in court filings as merely making podcast allegations that are provably false. Those are both scare quotes that he has applied. But the actual reporting is the ancient sort of art of diving into documents and not talking to your family on weekends so you can dive into more documents. It started with a bankruptcy filing for aspiration, a carbon credits company that was a giant sponsor of the Clippers and a giant recipient of Steve Ballmer's money personally.

He invested $60 million, all told, into the company in his own name. And Aspiration goes bankrupt. The company collapses. The co-founder has now been sentenced to 14 years in prison, federal prison for wire fraud. And one of the creditors, one of the top predators in the bankruptcy filing was KL2 Aspire LLC. And if you are even vaguely aware of the clippers and basketball, KL has the initials of one Kauai Leonard. Right. The number two is his jersey number and aspire.

Well, the company's name is Aspiration. it does not take Sherlock Holmes to deduce that perhaps this is a vehicle set up exclusively, perhaps, to receive money from that company. The problem, as you point out, is that he had never done anything in public for that company. There's never even a deal announced. And so then you find out, oh, wait a minute, this is a $28 million endorsement deal that he never actually did anything for in public and was never announced. Then you've humbled down the rabbit hole from there.

For me, what's fascinating, Pablo, I know you've done your victory lap, But I really just think it's so worth doing it again. And because I just cannot get over. You have a multi-billion dollar. I mean, multibillion doesn't even really capture it. We're talking about hundreds of billions. A hundred and seventy-four billion at last check. One of the ten rich of people in the world, depending on Microsoft stock.

Exactly. So that's just bomber. Then we're talking about the NBA, the cultural imprint, the NFL, the MLB. We talked previously with you about Mark Walter. This is literally, it appears, a rat's nest. Then you have a media which seems deeply in bed for access with these same owners, leagues, and others. They don't have the same expectation that maybe we do whenever we cover politics. Even when it's adversarial, we still have a right to question.

We can have FOIA. We have, you know, nobody in the government can just ban me from walking into the United States Capitol. That's not the same. Nobody has a right to go to a press conference for a. a sports league or for any of that. And that's why I found, you know, that ESPN article, let's put E3 up there on the screen in the days before, to be so shocking in light of what we know now, is how, Pablo, does something like this even come to be published by this multi-billion dollar company, ESPN Disney, sources NBA has no evidence of bomber funneled money to Leonard

via sponsors. I mean, is this just total league capture in like? of then the NBA disproving this and validating all of your reporting. How does something like this even happen when an independent journalist on a YouTube channel is able to win a Pulitzer Prize? And the Walt Disney Corporation is somehow either fooled or complicit in trying to cover up for this entire organization. Yeah. And the rub here also is that I worked for ESPN for over a dozen years. All those people on that byline, I know them personally. We did a 15, now. 16, I lose count sometimes, part series, laying out the reporting, documents, human sources, again, like old school traditional journalism, but just in a new place.

They had the ability to see so much that should have made them pause before publishing that. And I will say that they did not reach out to me for comment. I provided a comment afterwards in a discussion with them when the story came out. They did not include that comment, which simply had said. I stand by my reporting. I look forward to the NBA's ruling. Our investigation continues. And so what I will tell you as a journalist is that this was, according to my reporting,

the Clippers' legal defense leaked to ESPN and presented as the findings in the NBA's investigation. And so in that very sort of gap, you can see, okay, they technically saw the story and provided some details. but the interpretation was the opposite. Right. And so generously, it is something that will haunt them because they did not intend for this. Less generously, it speaks to the question of, how did you guys not smell this earlier

when I had been doing this for a year? Why did you not trust the journalist, but instead trusted the source that leaked it to you? And so that is something that I think has led to this larger rightful conversation around, Look, sports fans can smell in a way they can't necessarily smell with politics even. They can smell when something is BS. Yeah.

And they also can smell how badly these leagues want to monetize their obsession with their favorite thing. They know, fans know how expensive everything's getting and how hard it is to be told the truth, even as they're spending more money. And we're watching, I think, an ongoing process of, in this case, figurative discovery, perhaps soon, literal discovery in a courtroom in which we're seeing backstage. There are people who are not abiding by what we conceive of, what we've always conceived of in journalism as the public interest. There is spin in a way that is becoming increasingly indefensible because at a certain point, you just have to admit that there is no good alternate explanation. and one to that point had never been provided. Have a little how it started, how it's going scenario for you from a different, I guess you could call him institution, Mark Cuban. Let's put E4 up on the screen.

So this is when you were in the midst of your investigation. He said, I'm on team Balmer. As much as I wish, they circumvented the salary cap. First, Steve isn't that dumb. If he did try to feed KL money, knowing what was at stake for him personally in his team, do you think he would let the company go bankrupt, knowing all creditors would be visible to the world. Then he goes on to portray Steve Balmer himself as a victim. He says they got scammed by aspiration along with many other things, many others, crimes for which they pleaded guilty last week.

Scammers do scammy things. They did a $300 million sponsorship deal with the Clippers in 2021. That's a huge deal. The better the team does, the more value the sponsorship has. It actually makes perfect sense that if they stole money from investors and want the Clippers to succeed, why not give stolen money to help keep their best player? It's sad that Pablo Torre didn't take the time, to find out how these scammers pulled off their scam. The idea the default is balmer is the bad guy is going to backfire on him. Let's go ahead and put the next one up on the screen. So after you were proven 100 percent absolutely correct, this is what you get. Congrats Pablo. Yeah, yeah. One, thank you. Thank you, Mark. I'd like to say that officially. You're invited

standing invitation to come back on the show to Frost Nixon with me again if you'd like. My thing with this, part of that defense, by the way, fundamentally is you don't know how business works because I'm a billionaire and you're not. And you don't understand what it's like to have this much money. And this has become this larger argument, which we've heard, which is that no one that rich and that credentialed would be that dumb. Right. And I just think it's really valuable to use sports in this case to debunk that myth. you do not need to be a billionaire to know why what they are doing is wrong. You do not need to have gone to Harvard Business School to understand that a thing that

smells like a scam might be worthy of further investigation on those terms. And in the story of Mark Cuban's defense, it is still inexplicable to me, how one could have so much confidence about a story that they had not reported themselves. And I think it's because of that same sensation of it's a big club and you're not in it. Yeah. It's some good old fashioned class solidarity. That's what's going on there. Thank you very much, Pablo.

As always, you remain literally the number one sports reporter in my book in the entire country. So we appreciate you very much. You guys are too kind anytime. And I think there will be some more stories that I'll be excited to tell you about in the future. Looking forward to that. Behind every night spent making the kids lunches, there's a lot of. a suspense. Will they finally eat the veggies? Will the pesto survive the first bite? Will the lunchbox come home empty, half full, or come home at all? And will you finish episode eight before you're

done slicing the cucumbers? Get Bell Pure Fiber Internet with Craved Netflix and Disney Plus from $94 a month. Price guaranteed for two years on internet with a two-year term and auto pay credit. Visit bell.com.za for details and to check availability. Bell, connection is everything. When I was 14 years old, I was kidnapped and held captive for nine months. I survived, and I've spent my life exploring how other people survive what should have destroyed them. I'm Elizabeth Smart, and these are the Survivor Files. I just remember this low, taunting voice next to my ear saying, shut up, don't say anything. Every week, I'm with survivors who live through the unthinkable.

I knew if he woke up, without a doubt, he was going to hurt me. I started feeling that there was someone at the end of my bed, and I just started screaming. They are abducted, stalked, controlled, and nearly silenced. But these aren't stories about what's taken from them. There's stories about what it takes to make it out alive. Listen to the Survivor Files with Elizabeth Smart on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. If your bookshelf and your for-you page are equally important to your personality,

welcome home. This is Prose Society, the weekly podcast that's part book club, part group chat for thought daughters, pop culture obsessives, and anyone who thinks pride and prejudice and love island deserve the same level of discourse. I'm Eli Rallo and every week we're connecting the dots between books, the internet, and the conversations everyone can't stop having. I'm going to have to look up this story. Someone says.

From bestselling authors and your favorite book talk creators to the latest pop culture moments, nothing is off the table. It's like if you can hide some real messages inside compelling characters, then that is a Trojan horse. Whether you're looking for literary deep dives, smart pop culture conversations, or a community of readers who love to think a little too much, you're in the right place. Listen to pro society on the Iheart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcast.

See you between the pages. Yesterday, Ryan and I had a chance to sit down in studio with the deputy foreign minister of Cuba. He gave us an update on the humanitarian crisis in Cuba, how they are thinking about what the U.S. wants to do to them. And many other things, including his thoughts on the Miami-based Cuban-American expat community. Let's go ahead and take a look. We are very excited today to be joined by Cuba's deputy foreign minister, Carlos Fernandez, DeCosio, really appreciate you being here. I know you don't get to the United States very often, but glad you could take some time to come by here. Thank you for having me in.

Yeah, so I know the UN General Assembly is meeting next week, so I know you'll be having a lot of meetings up there. But the last time that I saw you was for an interview back in March in Havana. And while I was there, there were multiple blackouts, including one kind of nationwide blackout. I remember there were already millions of people without running water because of the embargo and the blockade. Afterwards, there was one Russian tanker that was allowed to come through. My understanding is that since then there hasn't been any. There hasn't been any other. So that was March. You then had the punishing Caribbean summer. What are the, what are the just circumstances for people on the ground now that we're in September in Cuba and

And we're at almost a year of no oil getting into the country other than a shipment or two. To tell you, imagine having in the normal world in 21st century two to three hours of electricity per day. Imagine the impact for just cooling your food, for working, for reading, for watching television, for carrying out daily life, to cope with heat above all in the summer when you only have two to three hours of electricity. Then you have, you could have spend weeks without the supply of water because as a result of lack of energy or lack of electricity, water's not being pumped. Or you have a sick person at home with a chronic disease and you're not sure how you could take them to the hospital, an elderly person if you need to take them. If you're concerned that you have a newborn whose life is dependent on a machine that cannot stop and cannot suffer electrical failure, or you're going to surgery and it's postponed

because there's no assurance of electricity, or if you're under surgery, it could be stopped because of a serious failure. And that's what we live today. The total blackouts that you speak about, we have several of those. During the summer, we have several of those. At the beginning of July, we had two in the same week. And that is unpredictable. We've been able to sustain it for some time.

But the impact on life implies that people that should not have died, have died. If you take the index of child mortality, which is a little over four per thousand newborns, gone up to nine, you can measure the amount of newborns that have died that should not have died in Cuba because we have a robust, naturally robust health system. And the aggression today is not only on fuel, it is only on the import of solar panels and anything linked, anything linked to energy. What are some of the trade-offs that have had to been made at hospitals,

what's the impact of schooling, what is the impact on businesses? Businesses are not working full hours. The Ministry of Foreign Affairs, There are people that have difficulty reaching, have to pay a lot of money to be able to go to work because there's no public transportation. And sometimes they reach, and then there's a blackout. So they don't know if to stay, wait until electricity to come.

And then in today's world, if you don't have electricity, it's very difficult to work. You don't have computers. You don't have systems that work. It's very difficult. There are people, for example, in tourism that earn a lot. And because tourism has been shut down, the U.S. has been putting pressure on every country

so that there's no tourism. there are people that are losing their income. So there's a mass of working people in Cuba that have depressed incomes at a moment when there's inflation. The impact on public transportation, on taking kids to school. Yet we were able on September 1st

to inaugurate the new school course. And I can assure you that in better conditions and better guarantees than most Latin American countries and even some communities in the United States for close to 1.5, million children. A lot of effort. It's done under harsh conditions. Kids go to school with difficulty of public transportation. It's practically impossible to give them school lunch.

And teachers have to work without electricity, without a fan under heat. It's very difficult. And paradoxically, because of the education that a lot of Cubans have gotten, when they have migrated to Central and South America, they've been relatively successful, proportionately so compared to, say, even some of the native people, let's say they went to Bolivia or Costa Rica or Venezuela or wherever they went. I'm curious what is happening to the population of Cuba. Like, what would you estimate it at? Because Cubans are now allowed to leave.

And then you recently did some immigration reforms, allowed them to come back and visit as well. So how many people are leaving the island? To understand the issue for Americans. The city of Detroit, I believe, had about two million people. Today is close to 600,000, maybe half a million. Because the economy in Detroit has been depressed. And there are many other cities in the United States with a similar condition.

Those cities have not been under economic warfare, under economic blockade. They just have a depressed economy for a combination of reasons. In the case of Cuba, there's a deliberate policy to make life as unbearable as possible for the population. And as you said, Cubans who are well trained as professionals or as technicians know that if they go to countries in the region or even if they go to the United States, they could find a job easily compared even to the natives of those countries because they're better trained. They're healthier and they can always go back to Cuba. Right. If it doesn't work out. So you have outgoing migration from Cuba, which has an impact on the workforce, on the development.

But it's understandable. Living conditions are so harsh, people tend to try to improve their situation. Any numbers, though? Like any sense of how drastic the... To give you an idea. Officially, we are 11 million people. Right. But on a specific day in the week, we calculate that we're over 9 million, 9.2, 9.3.

So there are people who are residents in Cuba, but they're not in Cuba that day. So it's not people that have necessarily taken the desire to... to permanently leave Cuba, but they go some other place, see if it works. Some come back, some stay, some pull their family, some tell their family, stay at all there. I'll send you money. They're better, there's schooling, there's hospitals and work, but I'll send you money. Because I don't have the conditions where I am, enough to make you come over here and live here. So what is your understanding of what the goal of this policy is from the U.S. perspective? What outcome are they trying to force?

The term they use is to take over Cuba, whatever that means, but doesn't sound nice to us. We're a sovereign nation. It has been tough for most or for many U.S. politicians historically to understand that Cuba is and has a right to be a sovereign nation. And that is at the center of the problem. There are people with more ambitious and more nasty agenda, which are influential in the United States. But the government has a consistent policy of trying to govern what occurs in Cuba, and we refuse to accept that. So the goal today is to punish the people of Cuba to a level that it threatens a humanitarian crisis, and with the aspiration that this will lead to enough pressure on the government or to overthrow the government,

to force people to be irritated with their government. Not that they naturally would be, but to force that. And do you think that that is working? It's going a long way. It's not going to make the government collapse, nor is it going to make the authorities in Cuba to say, okay, we surrender our sovereignty, and we ask the U.S. government,

tell us what you want us to do, and come and govern and do what you want. It also feels like the policy is self-defeating in a sense that usually the people that would lead these kinds of protests would be the kind of educated people in their in their 20s who have kind of have the energy and the spunk to get out in the street but as you said they're leaving if that you know if if they if they if they're trying to improve their situation one way to do it is just head out which is much easier they're leaving yeah they understand what's happening

they may have some disagreement with some of our policies but they say i want my country i don't want this to be puerto rico i want cuba to be cuban for Cubans. And they also, being educated, they know what their salt has been in every country that the US has intervened militarily, otherwise. It has not, the record shows

that it has not implied an improvement of society or the livelihood is implied quite the contrary. So people are educated, and again, they could have some kind of disagreement with an existing policy. At this moment in Cuba,

we're undergoing a very profound transformation socially and economically, more profound than any moment since the 1960s, towards greater market role, opening it expansively towards a private sector, and there are people, educated, well-placed in Cuba, who are highly concerned with this. They're not going to go come out against the government, because we know the government's trying to adapt to a new reality, that this is something we have been discussing for the past 15 years at least, and that it has taken us time to put them forward,

waiting for a better moment. And we have understood that a better moment is not going to come. We've got to do it now. But these transformation are also creating some concern, some people in Cuba. But the government is going forward. Legislation is in place. It's being additional legislation put in place,

and it's a dramatic change in Cuba. What the outcome is going to be, we don't know. But we need to do something to change the current reality. And this is theoretically, people like Marco Rubio have been pushing for decades say we want market reforms in Cuba we want to allow investment we want to allow business creation so what has been the response from people in the United States who have been demanding these changes from the Cuban government to see them now happening you said theoretically if you

research profoundly the record has shown that most attempts of reforming Cuba have been sabotaged by the US either through political pressure or provoking situations that the government steps back. That's the real history. Now, we're not waiting for a reaction by the US government because these are transformations that we're making for the people of Cuba, for improving Cuba. And because we know that anything we ask, the answer is going to be, we don't agree with that.

That doesn't meet our expectation. And we believe that we should not meet the US expectations. But you correctly point out that the kind of transportation, that's the kind of transportation, that are taking place in Cuba, moving towards the market, expanding the private sector, giving opportunities for individuals in Cuba, live in Cuba, for Cubans that live outside of Cuba, for foreigners that don't live in Cuba, to do business in Cuba with a more transparent legislation, with more predictable legislation, that is occurring in Cuba today. With limitations, when you're under the level of aggression that we are, you have limitations,

and with some lack of experience. We're welcoming it from some countries that are advising us with different points of views, some of them with a lot of knowledge but without understanding of Cuba. And we're trying to do that, to try to move in the direction that can change Cuba and improve it in the way we are now. But I repeat, influential people in the United States have historically tried to put obstacles to Cuba's reforms. So based on the public reporting, there are no current diplomatic talks between the U.S. and Cuba. Is that accurate? And is that something that Cuba is seeking?

There's no standing system of dialogue. We maintain contact. And we mutually has expressed Reddit. We've had a few meetings. We have not rejected the possibility of other meetings. But when we say that there's no progress, we're based on the fact which is evident that if, if almost on a weekly basis, you're applying new sanctions, and you're applying new pressures on Cuba, it is evident that there's no progress. We also try to be discreet. It's a general approach,

historically we've had, and we keep it under that we don't want. We are against the leaks that come out in the media, which distort reality, which do not really represent what's going on. But what I can tell you is that in these talks, they're not negotiations. There are talks, communication. There has not been an expression yet by the U.S. that they're ready to work with Cuba for a constructive and respectful relationship between two sovereign nations, to solve bilateral issues, to construct a mutually beneficial relationship. There has been no proposal in that direction, as there has been no proposal to alleviate the situation of the people of Cuba that results from U.S. aggression. None whatsoever.

And I say this because I've been articles saying that none of that has existed to know. Do they bring up Gaesa in any of the negotiations? Marco Rubio has made a huge deal. The Miami Herald has made a huge deal about the role of Gaesa and the Cuban economy. And how does Gaesa fit into the market reforms that you are rolling out now? Is that that seems, is that a rhetorical element of? their objection or is there something substantial there that they want you to do? The real name of that organization is Guy.

No, guys. Okay. I already said it, Guy. This comes out of Miami as Guyasa. It's a guy. And it's an organization as I exist in almost every country, including the U.S. Cuba, because of being a developing country, because of relatively limited natural resources that can serve as capital formation.

And the fact that we have no access to no source of capital has had organizations of which Guy has been one that help accumulate capital for us or development. So you ask yourself, where did the growth of tourism that made Cuba change its economic matrix in the 1990s and became the main source of income come from? Where does Cuba biotechnology industry come from? How were we able to build such a robust medical system? Where did the investment come? It didn't come from the World Bank. It didn't come from any financial institution. It came from our own resources.

Through organizations like Gaessa, whose role is to take part of the income and try to capitalize for the development and for investment in society. Because the specific case of Guy is linked to armed forces in Cuba, the Secretary of State, even before being Secretary of State,

targeted as a usual, propaganda mechanism. These are the military that use resources to do malign things and nasty things and intervene in other countries, all of which is totally untrue. So he targets gas, which already today does not, for different reasons, doesn't have neither the size, nor the influence in the Cuban economy had in the past. Among other things, because of reality that we face and reorganization that we have today in the Cuban economy.

But I insist, it's not the only one. And I don't mention others because I don't want new targets to come up. As you know, the U.S. has been very busy around the world. We had talks that were ongoing with Venezuela and then decided to indict President Maduro and effectively kidnap him and has done this deal with Delcei Rodriguez, taking the Venezuelan oil. We launched a war of aggression against Iran again whilst we were in the midst of diplomatic, alleged diplomatic talks with them.

What sort of lessons have you taken from the Trump administration's actions around the world. That we're living in a very aggressive world. The world is practically divided between the respect to international law or the lack of respect. Respect to UN Charter, the recognition of sovereign equality or not, and the recognition of the rights of nations to build their own future or not. The U.S. approach is they call it peace through force, which means imposing U.S., what they identify is U.S. interest. I wonder if they are the interests of the U.S. citizens as a whole, or the interests of us.

Exclusive elite group in the United States, but that's another discussion. And impose it by strength and by force. It's the most powerful nation on earth. And it carries out kidnappings as the one that you just mentioned. Do you think Venezuela could be a model that they pursue in Cuba? They could try. And I think they would increasingly understand. that they'll fail, that attempt will fail. It's a different country, different reality. The solar panel growth, when I was there in March,

I think there were some periods of time where up to 20% or so of the energy and some days even more was coming from solar panels. I would say 12, 14%. 1214. How is that unfolding now? And what is the U.S. posture been? as you were referencing an attempt by the U.S. to kind of stall that as well. Stalls it.

When they speak of the one of a severe Cuba's relationship with China, the greatest element that we import from China is solar panels, which is a country that produces the most and the cheapest. And the U.S. refuses to sell them to Cuba. So why wouldn't we... Has that stopped the import of panels? No, it hasn't stopped, but slowed? There are obstacles in place,

I mean, they're difficult through the shipping companies. through routes, payments, different ways. But it continues to be part of our plans. We've continued to invest in that. It doesn't solve all our problems because solar energy is irregular. It's a very intense, specific time of the day and specific times of the year, but not always. It needs to be supported by batteries, by other investments. We have a very fast learning curve in terms of the amount of time.

We need to invest and put in shape in one of the fields and to invest in the different areas and to understand the technology. But that continues. Not only with that, also with wind, also with the use of bio gas, we're trying to see with waste management that we can produce electricity. That kind of problems we have. Is there any hope of another tanker being able to come through? There's lots of hope.

Because the fact that tankers don't come is a gross violation of international law. The U.S. intimidating every country in the world. We hope that at some point that crime, that violation of international law, would stop occurring. Remember, all of this is based on the allegation by the U.S. that Cuba, a relatively small country in the Caribbean, poses an unusual and extraordinary threat to U.S. national security and U.S. foreign policy. Now, forget ideology. as a matter of common sense, can Cuba pose a threat to a nuclear power with 5,200 nuclear warheads,

11 aircraft carriers, military bases all over the world, including in our hemisphere? Is it logical, is it credible to believe and to believe? Yet, based on that claim, the U.S. applies secondary sanctions to every, or intimidates, of applying second, to every country around the world. And nobody coincidences it. Those sanctions seem to be working. Major companies that have been with Cuba for a very long time are pulling out. What's how, how, I don't know how you can even answer this, but how long can this go on? Like what, and what is Cuba doing to try to reverse the outflow of these companies?

It's a difficult question to answer. Imagine if Canada, Spain, France, California, or the state of New York, where all of a sudden cut from the U.S., and from the rest of the world. How long would they last? With no fuel, no use of the U.S. currency, materials can't come in, choked as a medieval siege on that territory. So how can it last?

We don't know. We hope that we can sustain it, but the pain is there, and I was describing it at the beginning. It's got a human cost with elderly people, with newborns, the population as a whole, on a daily basis. Most of the reports by U.S. media speak about the irritation of the population,

of course, protests, people complaining, but they only touch the surface. They don't go to what's happened in a home with real problems, in a hospital, in a school, in a maternity ward. That's where the effect of this is really felt. As I'm sure you know, we have a significant and powerful voting block of Cuban Americans in the U.S. who have been a very important. broadly been supportive of aggressive posture towards Cuba. How do you think about that group and their priorities and the way that they influence politics here in the U.S.? It's unfortunate. It's a rare issue. I never thought that the Vietnamese would support damaging their country or the Irish or the Italians, even in the times of Mussolini,

that they would agree with the U.S. punishing the population of Italy or the population of another country with which the U.S. would disagree, yet it occurs with not all the Cubans, but influential Cubans, and their power is not so much in their votes, but in the amount of money. Because it's the elite, the powerful ones that contribute to the political parties, basically the Republican Party. I think it's an extension to believe that they represent the totality of the feelings of Cubans towards Cuba. But if you look at today the reality, the reality specifically in Miami, there's fear among the population. People don't want to say the wrong words.

They don't want to make their wrong statement. They don't want to travel to Cuba to meet with their families because they think they can feel consequences from the authorities or from powerful people in Miami if they do so. The U.S. has said it was going to send $100 plus million in aid. We actually reported that a significant portion of that was going to be Starlinked that they were trying to get Cuba to take. Originally.

Now they're sending food kits. And the 100 million that were urgently going to be sent to Cuba announced to the Vatican in the month of June, end of June or beginning of July, they've sent food kits in two badges of four 700 families, which is a bag of beans, some detergent toothpaste, something like that, some rice, some small canned foods, basically that. calling that 100 million or are they saying? I don't know how they're reaching 100 million. They must be now close to $80,000, $90,000. These are overpriced. But to reach 100 million is going to take a long time.

And so this is like a- And they exclude medicine and they exclude powdered milk, which are basic needs in Cuba. Yeah. And so this is sort of a PR stunt in the U.S. perspective. If it's anything like our weapons industry, 90% of it will stay here in northern Virginia as profit. When the secretary-

The United States announced it in the Vatican. He had not yet spoken to the government of Cuba about that, not even spoken to the religious organizations. And then he claimed that we were refusing it. They hadn't even mentioned it. Incredible. Well, Deputy Foreign Minister, Carlos Fernandez-Decchio, thank you so much for joining us.

We very much appreciate it. It's been a pleasure. Thank you. Hey, what's up? I'm Tony Gonzalez. And I'm October Gonzalez. But you can call me Toby. We want you to join us. us on our new podcast, No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez. We get real about marriage, parenthood, sex, divorce, and all the nitty-gritty stuff we all think

about, but just don't say out loud. You're probably just going to be some rich guy and he's going to whisk you away. Well, this is awkward. Listen to No Safe Words with October and Tony Gonzalez on the Iheart radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcast. Hey there, everybody. Amy Robach and T.J. Holmes here from the Amy and T.J. podcast. We're going to cover everything you need to know during this heated political season.

Yes, we just saw Lindsey Graham the death of a longtime senator. Also, we've got a couple of missing members of Congress. Also, we've got a lot of members of Congress behaving badly. We've got accusations, allegations flying all day long on Capitol Hill. Listen to Amy and T.J. on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to your podcasts. Welcome aboard season six of The Girlfriends, Flight or Fight or Fight. which takes place 30,000 feet in the sky. A beautiful woman smiles and hands you a scotch.

But you have no idea just how messed up her job actually is. It was the most sexist job I think you could have. Until one day, a group of stewardesses spark a revolution that reshapes America. Listen to The Girlfriends, Flight or Fight, on the IHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I-Heart podcast, Guaranteed Human.