Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - Best of Week 4/4 - 4/8: Amazon Labor Union, Media Blackmail, Obama Returns, Regime Change, Starbucks Workers, Twitter, & More!

Episode Date: April 8, 2022

Krystal and Saagar talk about the Amazon labor union, media manipulation, Starbucks workers, Elon's Twitter play, regime change failures, Obama humiliating Biden, Chris Smalls' next steps, and more!To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/To listen to Breaking Points as a podcast, check them out on Apple and SpotifyApple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/breaking-points-with-krystal-and-saagar/id1570045623 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4Kbsy61zJSzPxNZZ3PKbXl Merch: https://breaking-points.myshopify.com/Matt Taibbi: https://taibbi.substack.com/ Amazon Labor Union: https://www.amazonlaborunion.org/donate/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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It really helps other people find the show. As always, special thank you to Supercast for powering our premium membership. If you want to find out more, go to crystalandsager.com. Good morning, everybody. Happy Monday. We have an amazing show for everybody today. What do we have, Crystal?

Indeed we do. Lots of big stories that I'm very excited to talk about, namely Amazon first warehouse voting to join a union historic moment. I have about a million things I want to say about this. So we'll dig into everything we've learned about how exactly they were able to pull this off and a little bit of the media reaction, which is always the situation there on the ground. We'll get into that. We'll also talk about the economic situation as best we can tell in Russia. New signs that, sadly, as we predicted, the sanctions that we have levied, the economic warfare that we are conducting against Russia is completely backfiring. I mean, that's just pretty much the— It may not be working as well as people thought. It may not be working as well as people thought. It may not be working as well as people thought, and it seems to be having the effect of bolstering Russian public opinion in favor of Putin and in favor of this war. So exactly the opposite of the outcome that you would actually want, but we'll dig into those details.

Also, a new study that's kind of good and bad. It reveals that cable news, sadly, really does impact the way that people think about the world and think about politics. No question. The good side of that is that it also indicates that people's minds can be changed. So that's hopeful because if you change their information diet, you can create a better political landscape. So we'll talk about that. Also, it looks like Jen Psaki has a new job coming up here. Lo and behold, she's going to MSNBC, Sagar.

Yes. And it is pretty extraordinary for someone who is still the White House press secretary to be conducting these type of negotiations. It's so extraordinary, actually, that even the White House press corps was repeatedly pressing on her on it, including one of the people at NBC, Kristen Welker, who would be her colleague if these reports are indeed true. We have on here, Christian Smalls might be joining us. Not 100% sure about that. So we had a tentative confirmation. He's a busy guy. We forget him. Extraordinarily busy. So we'll see if we'll get him. If not, we've got another piece of the Amazon story that we want to tell you about, another media reaction from one of his appearances on MSNBC. But let us start with the news out of Staten Island and Amazon. As you all probably already know, a warehouse on Staten Island,

it's called JFK 8, has now officially become the very first Amazon warehouse to vote to unionize. It was not particularly close. This was extraordinary and historic in all kinds of ways, not only because it's the first, but also because Amazon is such a behemoth, because they really set the conditions for labor across the country, because they spent millions of dollars to keep this from happening anywhere, and also because these workers decided to go a completely different path. They didn't join up with an existing union. Christian Smalls and his colleagues and Derek Palmer, his best friend,

who's the vice president there who still works at Amazon, they decided that they were going to start a brand new worker-led union called the Amazon Labor Union and that they were going to start from scratch and organize this warehouse. And lo and behold, that effort and that strategy has succeeded where no one else has been able to. Let's take a listen to a little bit of the man himself upon his victory. Damn, two years ago, my life changed forever. And I only wanted to do the right thing and speak up for the workers behind me.

Jason was one of them, Derek, Jordan, Gerald, everybody and JFK. When COVID-19 came to play, Amazon failed us. They dropped the ball, they lied to the public saying they're doing all these things. None of that was the reality of our situation. So I let her walk out after they quarantined just me and nobody else. And that walkout led to my firing. Then a week after that, a couple weeks after that, maybe a week or two, that memo that came out calling me not smart or articulate. Ironically, they also said to make me the face of the whole unionizing efforts,

which I had no intention at the time. Now, you guys probably all know the story that he's referring to there. But we've been interviewing Christian since he was fired from Amazon. I don't know, for two years. Yes, for almost exactly two years ago was our first interview with him. And he said in that interview, I may have started a revolution, which is kind of incredible.

Clearly, that was exactly what was going on. But so he was very distressed over the lack of COVID safety procedures. He was witnessing his colleagues getting sick. They weren't getting any information. They didn't have adequate PPE within the warehouse. And so he led what was actually a very small walk-down at the time. I think we may have even covered it here. Amazon retaliates against him, fires him. And then as if that wasn't bad enough, one of their top executives in a memo that went out to all of the leadership, up to and including Jeff Bezos, says, hey, you know what we should do? We should make this guy, Christian Smalls, the face of the Amazon union movement because he's, quote, not smart or articulate. That lights the fire under Christian, and ultimately, we see what the results are today. We're learning more and more about exactly how they pulled off

this extraordinary victory. There have been a number of good pieces that have looked at the tactics they've used, the people that were involved, why this effort succeeded when others failed, and also some of the backlash to Amazon's aggressive over-the-top tactics, which really did backfire. Let's go ahead and put this Jacobin piece up on the screen. This is an interview with one of the worker organizers, a woman named Angelica Maldonado. And a few things that jumped out at me here, and this, by the way, is from our friend Eric Blanc, who we've interviewed as well, who's a great labor reporter. So a couple of things that jumped out at me here is she talked a lot about how they went about bridging generational divides, racial divides, ethnic

divides, language divides. You have a very diverse workforce that they had to be able to communicate with and be able to win over people's trust. She talks about the fact that the younger workers were easier to sway than the older workers. And, you know, that makes a lot of sense in terms of if you look at our political landscape, younger voters tend to be more in favor of unions, more on the left politically. Older voters tend to be, you know, more sort of on the right and have more traditional economic views. So that made sense. But she also talked about how they organized across racial lines.

She said that was another thing, reaching out to the diverse races at JFK8. For instance, a lot of our coworkers are African. During the campaign, I had an idea, which ended up turning out great. My neighbor, a lot of our co-workers are African. During the campaign, I had an idea which ended up turning out great. My neighbor, she's also African and she caters, so I said, we've given out so much food, why don't we give out food that targets the culture of the workers at Amazon? So one day I asked my neighbor to make us some African fried rice, and that really attracted a whole bunch of African workers towards us, and we gained a couple of new organizers off that. I would say having organizers of the same race was also crucial. I'm Hispanic, half Hispanic myself, but I don't speak Spanish. So it was easier for one of our organizers who speak Spanish to speak to those Hispanic

workers who had questions. Another thing she talks about, and this really jumped down at me, is part of what Amazon has used successfully in the past, Sagar, is this climate of fear. Yes. Where people feel like, oh, I can't stand up to these people. I can't possibly join a union. I'm going to get fired. My life is going to be ruined. And so they took what they described as intentional calculated risks to demonstrate that they could stand up for themselves, that they shouldn't be afraid of Amazon.

What she says is they would go into these union-busting captive audience meetings knowing they were going to get kicked out because they weren't invited. And she said, though, we did get kicked out eventually. Action like that showed them that there are certain rights and certain laws that protect us and that we should not be scared of Amazon. And of course, Agar, Christian Smalls

is a perfect example of that because they did the absolute worst they possibly could to that guy. And here he is, still unafraid, still fighting, and still pushing forward. Yeah, it was an ultimate smear campaign that backfired, obviously, tremendously. And I think that that's what we saw at the heart of this at the beginning, when they said he's not smart, he's not very articulate. It ended up resulting in the resignation of a top Amazon executive at the time.

And ultimately, you know, they awoke a sleeping giant. It's funny because watching the New York Times and the traditional media kind of catch up to a story, which we've been doing for so long, kind of is interesting to see how exactly they interpret the lens. Let's put this up there on the screen. The New York Times profiled Christian. And they talk about there, how two best friends beat Amazon, specifically talking about the original firing, about how Christian decided in order to start a union from scratch rather than start with another established union,

and how really, I mean, what he's accomplished is one of the most extraordinary feats in the history of the modern labor movement. It really is. I don't think there is another way to describe it. We watched what happened in Bessemer, Alabama. We watched also the Teamsters unions. Many others told Christian he was making a huge mistake. I remember, I think we interviewed him here, what, six months ago? Exactly on this. And he's like, well, a lot of people didn't want us to do this, but we decided to start it from scratch because we wanted it to be our own. And of course, everybody said that wasn't going to work, lack of institutional connection. And what they point to on the most

significant part is his low budget and then just focusing relentlessly on traditional and important organizing tactics like you point to in the Jacobin piece culminates then in the actual victory that we see for him himself. And I think that that's what's fascinating is that now with the media attention on him, they are now unable, Amazon is, in order to paint him as not smart or articulate, and they are going to throw everything at the wall in order to make sure that this union never sticks, that they have no bargaining power, and I'm really curious to see how they begin targeting Christian himself. Yes, wait for it.

Because that is going to happen. But you know, the fact of the matter is, the way they've targeted him this far, it only played into his hands. Because this is a man who worked at this warehouse, who had relationships there. And so when they fired him, when they smeared him as not smart or articulate, when they had him arrested for bringing food into the warehouse to serve these workers. And by the way, they had gotten an order from the NLRB, and this was really critical, saying that organizers could talk about unions and organize within the Amazon warehouses. That mattered a lot. There's a few other things from this New York Times piece that are really interesting, which lays out not just the smart strategy of Christian and Derek Palmer and the other worker organizers, but also some of the big missteps that Amazon made. Because as Jodi Kantor put it, the reporter on that story, while Amazon deployed an incident commander, the workers deployed baked ziti.

So they were there. They were organizing at a bus stop that all the workers came to, funneling into and out of work. They were serving food. They were hyper-local, hyper-culturally competent with all the different diverse constituencies in this warehouse. And so when Amazon would say, oh, he's not smart or articulate or get people arrested, this just made them look extremely heavy handed and ultimately really backfired. Think about the odds here. Christian said that they spent about $120,000 overall in this effort. Let me tell you, that is peanuts compared to what normally goes into these things. He says, we started this with nothing, with two tables, two chairs and a tent. Amazon spent more

than $4.3 million just on anti-union consultants nationwide last year, just last year. And that's just scratching the surface of how much they spent to try to destroy this. There was one other incident they say here that was a big Amazon mistake. Reportedly, one of their anti-union consultants called the labor organizers, who are mostly black, thugs. And that also backfired and, you know, made the, and this has been reported to the NLRB too, made the workers feel like they were discriminatory against these organizers. All of this led to a situation where they quote a worker there, a woman named Kathleen LaJuze, who's 41, who said she's not a big union fan, but she voted for the union

to send a message to the company because she said, quote, the humanity at Amazon is gone. I think that says it all there, that they were able to win over even people who were skeptical because they were so relentlessly hyper-local and culturally competent and, you know, friendly, warm faces, extremely hopeful, while Amazon is coming over the top with a gigantic hammer. There's one other thing I want to mention from this New York Times article, which is they mention in passing, S how many DSA members went and took jobs at this warehouse and other places to try to be helpful in the organizing effort. Because even though the numbers, I'm sure, are relatively small, Just having a few more people who can do the communication and organize on breaks and all of that, that really makes a difference. Yeah, that's an interesting point. I do want to know more about that, too, because now is the real question. Well, we have upcoming. How many votes do we have upcoming in Amazon in terms of the New York area?

We have one more warehouse that is scheduled to vote. I think that voting starts April 23rd. So that is coming right now. So what the point here is how much of this was a one-off and how much of it can be scaled. And that's actually, I mean, that's the ultimate question when it comes to all of these things, which is that at this point, it was a victory. Can it then be transported kind of a unionization effort in a box and then exported to different warehouses and sweep the country. Now, we saw that happen with Starbucks, and we know that it's happening quite well. Starbucks, though, has a very, very different workforce. We've talked about here a lot. Starbucks is a much more educated workforce. These are people who are disproportionately younger,

probably also disproportionately a lot more liberal. And I don't mean that in terms of a disparaging way, just much more likely to probably have been actively involved in a Bernie Sanders-type campaign, where an Amazon worker is really going to run the gamut in terms of both political beliefs, socioeconomic, and possibly just politically disconnected, most likely to fall into a non-voter category. So how do you get- That's what Christian talks about. Because when you're working at Amazon, they just take over your whole damn life. Of course. I mean, what are you supposed to do? We talk about this all the time. The people feel shame whenever they're like, I don't, you know, they kind of say it under their breath.

You know, I know I'm supposed to care, but I don't care about politics. It's like, listen, you're trying to pay your bills. You're working paycheck to paycheck. Gas is $4.50 a gallon. Your rent is out of control. Heating bills. And you're worried about your kids, you know, medical expense or they got pulled out of school. Who can blame you?

You have way bigger problems. So unionizing that workforce in a scalable way is going to be the single biggest obstacle. And also, I mean, this is probably a good segue to the next part of this, but it's not like Amazon is going to just let this happen. They are throwing everything they can at this. Oh, absolutely. We have no idea what they're about to throw at us. Let's put this last piece for part one up on the screen, A4. This is a great profile actually before the vote.

I want to give credit to the city for interviewing Christian Smalls and Derek Palmer before the vote happened here. And this piece gets into a lot of the generational approach here. You know, Derek and Chris are both 33 years old, so 33 years old. I think that makes them young millennials, not Gen Z. Yeah, for sure. Then they're also organizing a lot of Zoomers using TikTok and just being of that generation and really comfortable. That was a big part of the appeal. There was a lot going on here. I mean, think if you add it all together, they had a really smart approach. They went down to Bessemer, and what they took away was that the organizers who had come in felt like outsiders.

And they said, you know, we're going to do this a different way. We're going to be hyper-local. We're going to be hyper-engaged with the Amazon work and really understand what their day-to-day is like. That clearly was a smart strategy. You had Amazon overreach. And frankly, I don't know if Amazon took them that seriously because a lot of the country, the media, certainly political class didn't take them seriously at all. So you have a national landscape also that is wildly different than it was just a short time ago, where there are lots of jobs, but the question is, are they good jobs? And so workers feel a little bit more empowered to take this kind of risk. And then it's no accident that the Starbucks

movement and the Amazon movement starts in New York. New York is the state that has the largest union density. So you have a culture of unionization. Christian's mom and Angelica, the other organizer I mentioned, both of their moms were members of SEIU 1199. So they have union membership in their blood. They understand what it's all about intuitively. You have that culture around you. And then you have helpful members from DSA. Also, that's part of the culture there in that area. You have that culture around you. And then you have, you know, helpful members from DSA. Also, that's part of the culture there in that area. All of that coming together in kind of a perfect storm and pulling up off what we all thought may well have been impossible. So it's an extraordinary story. Obviously, I'm extremely excited about it. I think it's fascinating to dig

into all these facets. And before we move on to the next part, the other thing I want to say is they do have another vote coming up this month. And so if you guys are able to contribute to their solidarity fund, you know, they did this with peanuts, but they're going to need some resources to keep the trade going. Link is going to be down there in the description. Make sure you guys can help. All right, Sagar, what are you looking at? There's a war going on right now. Journalists have been killed in Ukraine. My own friend from my White House press days, Trey Yankst at Fox News, literally had his colleague killed during shelling in Kiev. Heroes are being detained in Russia for standing up to their government and for telling the truth.

Burmese journalists, of course, are in prison. You probably have barely even heard of many of these instances or of actual journalists who are risking their lives in war zones. But what do you think the story in the U.S. media is? It's not these heroes. Instead, Meet the Press, the flagship political program of NBC News, a household name identified with politics, chose instead to focus its time on, quote, online harassment that some journalists face. One of those people who was spotlighted is The Washington Post and formerly The New York Times' Taylor Lorenz. Let's watch the segment.

That's right, Chuck. And, you know, before this was all sort of anecdotal, but now we have hard data. I mean, this is one of the biggest issues facing female journalists right now. And an unprecedented study is giving us a closer look at just how some of those online attacks against female journalists are actually getting started and what it looks like for those who are on the receiving end. But a warning to our viewers, some of the language you hear in this report, it may be disturbing. Female reporters are often at the center of the bullseye. Taylor Lorenz is a columnist for The Washington Post and was targeted nearly one year ago in a segment on Fox News. She's at the very top of journalism's repulsive little food chain. Host Tucker Carlson mocking her after she called for an end to online harassment.

Now she's at the center of a new study by NYU researchers, among the first to actually quantify online hate against female journalists. This is the moment that Carlson aired that segment. Yes. We see this really dramatic rise. Using large-scale data to measure online language, they tracked violent and threatening tweets directed at two female journalists after being targeted by two male media figures. Researchers found that attacks against Lorenz went up as much as 144 percent after just one Twitter thread. For another journalist, they went up 65%. Every single social tie, I had severe PTSD from this. I contemplated suicide. It got really bad.

You feel like any little piece of information that gets out on you will be used by the worst people on the Internet to destroy your life. And it's so isolating. And terrifying. It's horrifying. All right, there's a lot to say about this. At the top and the most obvious, I genuinely feel very bad for both of them.

It sucks to be targeted online. It's clear that she suffered mental distress over that, and that's really awful. Now, that being said, let's discuss the tone and the actual allegations of the segment. That means that things said online are somehow the fault of Tucker Carlson for literally saying Lorenz's full name on the air, and it's on Glenn Greenwald for tweeting criticism of her work, which means that what NBC News is saying and what Taylor Lorenz are saying, what the segment really means is they are not allowed to be criticized in any way.

That is why this segment is emotional blackmail and manipulative. I feel bad for all women online who have suffered harsh criticism. But the clear point of this report is simply to say that criticizing them is out of bounds forever. And for people who are reporters and to interact with the public square, that is an obviously ludicrous standard. As friend of the show, Glenn Greenwald responded in his substack, quote, Your top priority is the emotional comfort of the most powerful elites, which you fulfill by never criticizing them. He adds, Corporate journalists have license to use their huge platforms to malign, expose, and destroy anyone they want. Your moral duty is to sit in respectful

silence and never object. That's the point. By the Taylor Lorenz standard, you're directing harassment towards her if you say her name on the air. And the sad part for Taylor is this, you have nobody but yourself to blame. A maxim I have learned making a career on the internet is this, you get back what you put out into the world. If you try, as we do, to put out as much content as possible, focus on a mission of making people hate each other less, then most of what you're going to get back is going to be positive, which it is overwhelmingly. But if you try and cancel people, ruin their lives,

spread false rumors and lies, paint yourself as a victim every chance you get, I'm sorry to say you are reaping exactly what you sow. Let's review Lorenz's record, shall we? This is the person who falsely accused venture capitalist Marc Andreessen of saying the R word on Clubhouse. She then refused to acknowledge her slander until 48 hours later when her bosses forced her to apologize. This is a person who literally ruined the life of a young female influencer girl with no job because her mother, yes, her mother, not her, was a prominent anti-Muslim activist. This is a person who

attempted to destroy Mr. Beast years ago because he said a bad word when he was a freaking teenager. She cheers cancellation attempts. She was part of the New York Times staff who claimed that black New York Times staffers were put in danger because of a Tom Cotton op-ed during the BLM protests. This is a person who, even after her own outlet stuck up for her, trashed the New York Times on her way out because senior staffers within the paper had the audacity to tell her she was acting unprofessionally, tarnishing the brand, and needed to grow up. This is a person, just to show you how pathologically sociopathic she is, went after Meet the Press even after that segment aired, despite their little sob story, for having the audacity to reach out to Glenn

Greenwald to ask him to respond to the allegation that he was responsible for harassment against her. That is the most basic of all basic journalistic practices. She demands you air her propaganda free from any perspective except her own. That's the problem. And just so you know, here's what Greenwald wrote to everyday employees of large media corporations, such as NBC, post-insults and attacks which target me and my journalism and me personally, often resulting in vile and bigoted attacks against me based in homophobia, anti-Semitism, and the nature of my interracial marriage and my family. But I don't whine about it or try to claim that nobody can criticize my work because I understand that those who seek out large and

influential journalistic platform that affect people's lives are fair game for criticism. He continues, perhaps influential employees of the largest media outlets such as Taylor Lorenz will one day come to a similar realization that being a front page reporter for the largest and most influential news outlets makes you fair game for critique. He ends it this way, as a member of various marginalized groups, I don't want or accept some special immunity shield against being criticized. No journalist with any dignity or worth should want that either. The man has a way with words, doesn't he? All of this matters for the battle of the future. As CNN Plus fades from memory in its first week,

the people like Lorenz and the sociopaths who staff the biggest newsrooms will make it so that those of us on the outside of the power structure are to be condemned, canceled, destroyed, targeted for having the audacity of pointing out their faults. All of this is a part of a broader power struggle to set the terms of debate, to make her and her ilk immune from criticism, and to imbue them with the eternal power to take us out and we can't say a word. Don't be fooled. As much as she was widely mocked and ridiculed over the last several years, the overwhelming majority of those in media sphere are either on her side or they are too cowardly to say the truth, that she behaves like a lunatic. And in that environment,

she has emotionally blackmailed enough people to operate with impunity at the highest levels of the media business. The only thing that we have here is our voice to expose their venality. And it's what we are going to continue to do here every single day, as long as we're able. All right, guys, we were not sure that he would have time this morning for us,

but he has managed to squeeze in a few minutes to talk to Breaking Points, the man himself, Christian Smalls, president of the victorious Amazon Labor Union, and it is so great to see you. Congratulations. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. It's great to see you, man.

Of course. So let's start with the personal. Just how are you feeling? What has this been like? It's been a whirlwind. Obviously, the last this weekend, it's been crazy for us on our end. We're being bombarded by, you know, workers from all over the country, you know, media. So it's it's been a whirlwind, but great to see. I'm happy to share this experience with the nation and with the world. Yeah, I mean, it's stunning.

It's also cool for us. You know, we've gotten to interview now over the time for the last two years on and off and watched your progress. It's just amazing to watch. Chris, we don't want to spend too much time in the past. Let's talk about the future. What have you got, the votes that are coming up, what are you specifically going to be focused on? So you've got JFK 8. What's the next warehouse? And then what are the ones after that? I'm sure your phone is ringing off the future. What have you got the votes that are coming up? What are you specifically going to be focused on? So you got JFK eight, what's the next warehouse? And then what are the ones after that? I'm sure your phone is ringing off the hook. Yeah, LDJ five is up next

in three weeks. So we're preparing for that. You know, I was right back at the bus stop yesterday, planning on going back out there connecting with workers. We had several meetings yesterday. So we're right back on the grind right back on the campaign trail. We obviously want to be two for two. To have a fulfillment center and a sortation center, this is a different type of building that definitely is going to just show the strength of the union. And we're, you know, once again, we're hoping to be successful. Chris, you mentioned you've got workers across the country reaching out to you. How many other Amazon facilities across the country right now are interested in unionizing with Amazon Labor Union? Oh, well, I can tell you before the election, I had a list of about

maybe about 12 to 18 buildings in different states. But now that's probably four times the amount. You know, we have workers from, I don't even know, all different types of, all different parts of the country. Even as far as South Africa, India, other countries, warehouses that, you know, want to form an ALU chapter for Amazon. So it's been beautiful to see, to be honest with you. So it's fascinating to me, Chris, kind of thinking about why the entire world counted you out. I mean, you were the person who was at the center of the story.

Why do you think so? At the end of the day, Bessemer got a ton of media attention in the lead up to that. You were counted out from the beginning. You were written off both by Amazon leadership, by the media. We've talked previously about how AOC canceled her appearance with you, but a lot of people had time to go down to Bessemer, Alabama. Why did everybody count you out in this fight? The most victorious, the biggest victory in the modern American labor movement. Yeah, I can't fathom that. I don't know why. I just believe that it was just a lot of misinformation about me as a leader, you know, about what we're doing with this union from the beginning. A lot of people didn't believe in us. They didn't believe that we were even going to make it to an election. Then they didn't believe that we were going to recover from the

withdrawal. So a lot of people just abandoned us. And it doesn't make any sense that we all claim that we stand in solidarity with one another. We needed a lot of support in the beginning, and we got zero. And once I realized that we were victorious without backing, I realized that there's nothing that we can't achieve. And, you know, once again, I'm just happy that I've been able to, you know, lead us to this victory because I know what I sacrificed. The people around me know what I sacrificed. And I know that we love one another. We take care of one another.

And the way we got here is the way we're going to continue to move forward. I want to say something about that, too, because every single union drive in this country, because of the way that the laws are rigged and because of the power that these corporate behemoths hold, every single union drive in this country is a long shot uphill battle. That doesn't mean you don't show up for it. That doesn't mean that, you know, you calculate, oh, is this one going to win? Let me see. I'm not sure. I'll show up after the fact. You got to be there from the start because if even the people who are supposed to be allies don't have your back, well, then that creates a self-fulfilling prophecy. Now, luckily, you were obviously able to overcome those odds in stunning fashion. You now have workers from across the country and around the globe reaching out to you about forming ALU chapters. How are you going to replicate the success you had here? Because from what I read

and from what I've been talking to you about, you all had such an intensely hyper-local focus. Obviously, you were a leader within Amazon before they fired you. People knew you. You had a lot of connections. You had a lot of ability to talk to people at the bus stop and make food that was culturally relevant and cross all kinds of age and racial and ethnic divides. Is that something that's possible to replicate in warehouses across the country?

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, of course, New York is obviously a union town. It's a little different here. Our culture is a little different here. We had to adapt to that. I brought in people from Miami, from Arizona, California. They obviously don't know the culture here in New York. They never stepped foot over here in Staten Island. And so they got connected with me. You have to adapt to whatever region you are in the country. And that's fine. It's easy to do that. If you're from that community, you represent the people, you represent your coworkers. You can absolutely take some things from our campaign and using your own campaign. And we encourage you to, we encourage you to reach out and we'll help you get started. You know, we always been that way. I, myself,

I've been on the picket lines for several different movements. People seen that, you know, for the last two years. It doesn't matter what the cause is about. If you call me and I have the availability, I make myself available. Like you mentioned, I show up when it needs to be, you know, when it's time for action. Everybody knows that. And that's what it's going to take. You know, you have to realize that this is 21st century. This is not the 1930s. You can't beat these major corporations with traditional style unionizing. That's why for the last 28 years, no established union was able to achieve what we were able to do. Chris, what is Amazon going to throw at you now? We put up on the screen earlier in the show their response. They're basically like sort of claiming that the election was rigged and that

NLRB acted inappropriately. I have no idea what they're going to try to throw at you. They've already tried to smear you once and it backfired tremendously. So if I were them, I'd be a little bit leery of trying to do that again. What do you think that they're going to come with now? I just think they're going to continue the union bus and pour millions of dollars into stopping us with their lawyers and their union buses that they they're hiring. You know, shoot, they already arrested me. So I don't know what else they want to do after that. You know, not only that arrested me, they arrested my organizer, who is actually a worker, twice. And I don't know, you know, we are prepared for whatever they throw at us.

You know, I mean, I know once again, um, we're taking on a trillion dollar company and people are like, you know, we're going to need help. Uh, but we have some Calvary that's starting to show up now. And, um, now that the world is paying attention, um, excuse me, um, we're going to have some help. We're going to have some legal representation coming in. We're going to have, um, you know, some more negotiators coming in to help us with the contract. Um, we're going to get everything we need and I'm going to make sure that, you know, everybody knows that I'm a fighter and I'm a fight until the very end to make sure not only that we're just winning elections, but we deliver our contract. Yeah. And I think that's really important. And, you know, to

call out the people who weren't there from the beginning, it's not too late to show up, guys. You got another vote that is happening right, you know, nearby. What is it, April 23rd that voting starts. You all still need, you know, a lot of support and a lot of help here. Chris, just tell people who are watching how they can support the movement. Yes, please support us. Help us volunteer, phone banking, whatever. We share our links to have volunteers sign up to phone bank if you're in the New York area. Even if you're not, you can do it remotely. Please donate.

If you can't help us volunteering on the ground, please donate to our GoFundMe. It's on our website at AmazonLaborUnion.org, on our social media as well. Follow us, support us, and just pay attention to what we're doing because it's only day one for the ALU, and we're hoping that we're going to continue to spread like wildfire.

We're excited to see your progress, Chris. We encourage everybody to go and donate. We're going to link down there in the description. Been behind you from the very beginning,

and can't wait to see what you do next. Yeah. It is truly incredible, and I just want to say, guys, there is no more worthy cause out there. If you truly care about working people, this isn't just even about Amazon workers across the country. Amazon sets the labor standards for workers in every industry in this nation. If we can change the game at Amazon, then literally anything is possible. So Christian's

been out there with his co-workers doing this on his own, bootstrapping it. Now's the time to flood the zone with resources and make this a nationwide movement. Thank you. Congratulations. Wonderful to see you. See you, man. Absolutely. Thank you.

Take care. Okay, guys, we have some big developments with regards to Starbucks. Now, as you all know, there is a union movement spreading across Starbucks like wildfire. We've already had a number of stores unionized. We have more than 100 that are set to vote. And this thing just continues to pick up steam. Apparently, the execs over at Starbucks are sort of freaking out because their attempts to union bust, not only did they fall flat, I think they completely backfired. They only made the case for a union that much stronger. So they kicked down the old CEO.

They brought back Howard Schultz, who, of course, was the founder of Starbucks and we'll get to in a moment, has a long history and lots of experience at union busting. And in his first town hall meeting, had some very revealing things to say about how he views the union effort. Let's take a listen. Now, here's where it gets a little sensitive, because I've been coached a little bit. But I do want to talk about something pretty serious. We can't ignore what is happening in the country as it relates to companies throughout the country being assaulted in many ways by the threat of unionization. Assaulted by the threat of unionization. Let's just be clear. All a union means is that your workers have a voice and some power and a little bit of democratic say in what goes on in their workplace. That is not an assault. It's not an existential threat. Starbucks is doing just fine in terms of their profit margin. Howard Schultz is extraordinarily wealthy.

This guy never has to worry. But they see this as an outright assault. And it also is particularly jarring for Starbucks with the type of language that they typically use about their baristas. And I don't remember if they call them like partners or whatever. They're sort of like languages around it. And they have on their website, all this fuzzy language about uplift and how much they care about these people. But when it comes to, and they're happy to give them,

you know, they have better wages than some places in the food industry. They have better benefits than some places in the food industry. They're okay with doing that because it's like part of the way that they virtue signal in their brand. But when it comes to workers having an actual say

and a little bit of power, absolutely not. They consider that a completely existential threat. And they're willing to go to some pretty extreme lengths in order to try to stop this union movement in its tracks. Here is the very first big move that Howard Schultz is making now reinstated as CEO of Starbucks. He is scrapping, and this for them is a really big deal, scrapping stock buybacks to, quote, invest more profit into our people. Let me read you a little bit from this piece. In a letter on Monday to employees, customers, investors, and others titled On the Future of Starbucks, Schultz announced the company would suspend stock buybacks immediately. It's his first act on his first day back in the top job, which he held twice before. He said stopping buybacks would allow Starbucks to, quote, invest more profit into our people and our stores, the only way to create long-term value for our stakeholders.

And here's more of the context. Starbucks spent $10 billion on buybacks in 2019, paused them at the start of the pandemic, but recently resumed the practice, spending $3.5 billion on buybacks in its most recent quarter, which ended in early January. In October, Starbucks said it would spend $20 billion on buybacks and dividends over the next three years, which is obviously an extraordinary giveaway to shareholders and investors. That's the way you should think about stock buybacks. And so they are so desperate to stop this union movement that they will even agree to

stop giving away the whole store to the investors and the shareholders to try to signal to their workers that they're gonna do better. The bottom line is though, workers should not have to depend on the goodwill and largesse of billionaires in order to have a decent workplace. All they want is a little bit of say in what is their day-to-day life.

That's it. And no amount of like, you know, investor announcements is going to be able to stop that sentiment within these Starbucks across the country. really what it should be, which is that because of balance and pressure from the workforce, they're like, well, if we don't want to deal with these unions, we're going to have to pay people a hell of a lot more and give them power. So they either get paid- Not give them power. Yeah, not too much. Not give them power. But we'll give them a little more. We'll give them a little better benefits.

We might give them a little pay raise. Power, absolutely not. Absolutely. Okay. But win-win, right? I mean, on one hand, you either get more money or they join a union and they fight you and then they're going to make even more money. So this is one of those areas where even the threat of it itself can significantly impact corporate behavior. Amazon did the same thing. Exactly. They had to, after the Bessemer effort, which, you know, the first time around really didn't even come close. But even just that first little threat of unionization,

they totally tried to reframe how they were talking about workers. They said they want to be the best employer on the planet. They upped some of the benefits and some of the wages to try to, again, stem the tide. So it really does show you the power of these movements that even when they don't end up forming a union and workers actually having direct power and direct say in their workplace, it forces these corporate titans into making some concessions, which is pretty extraordinary. Yeah. So, and let's go and put C4 up there on the screen. This is something we want to keep everybody updated on, which is don't take this all 100%, you know, as a good thing. Layla Dalton, who was an organizer for Starbucks Workers United,

was just fired by Starbucks. And you actually pointed out, Crystal, that in an interview that she gave, she said to Jacobin, my goal is to unionize the entire food industry. Starbucks is a big corporation, but there are many other fast food places. There are many health hazards that happen on a day-to-day basis because of understaffing or improper working conditions. You're serving customers, cleaning and getting sanitizer, washing your hands. It's hard. I think some people deal with not only Starbucks, but say McDonald's and Wendy's too. So I want the whole food industry to know it's possible to unionize.

And just as Mr. Schultz takes helm of the company and accuses people like her of assault, she is summarily fired from that company. So it's not, by the way, that is illegal if you can prove it, but it's very hard to prove. There's a lot to say about this. First of all, I just think these standard union busting tactics, not only do I not think that they're working, I think they're backfiring. And we see that with Amazon. I mean, Starbucks should go and ask Amazon how it goes for them, how it went for them when they fired Christian Smalls before they fire more of these worker organizers. And Layla is not the first one to get the ax, by the way. I think that there is a new climate of worker boldness, a genuine sort

of uprising where normally these tactics, what are they intended to do? They're intended to scare people. They're intended to enforce and demand compliance because you're just too afraid to even vote yes on the union or stand up for yourself at all. Instead, what I seela, who was a leader within her store, the people she works with, they know who she is. They know what a good worker she was. They know that her firing was completely unfair. And they also see the way that she was unafraid of standing up for herself. Same thing with Christian Smalls. This is one of the things, the stories that keeps coming out of the Amazon organizing effort is that they very intentionally created a culture of boldness and a culture of risk taking to demonstrate to the people around them, you don't have to be afraid of these people. You don't have to be afraid of these managers.

You don't have to be afraid of Amazon. You have rights. And if we stand together, we actually are powerful and we actually can cause their capitulation on key issues. Because of the labor landscape as it exists today, where by and large, the problem isn't getting a job. The problem is getting a good job. That also creates a climate of boldness because workers feel like, all right, the worst you're going to do to me is you're going to fire me. Guess what? I can get another crappy low wage job. This one is not all that special right now. What they are in the fight for is to have some say and to have living wages, decent benefits at the workplace they're at.

Christian, actually, we played it yesterday, said something that was kind of revolutionary that I don't know if you guys caught it. But he said, we're not quitting our jobs anymore. We're going to unionize. That represents a sea change in how workers have viewed their employment and viewed the workforce. No, no. I'm not just leaving and getting another gig. You don't have that power over me anymore. I'm going to force you to make this job that I have right now into a good job. So I just have this sense, and we'll see what the impact here of Layla being fired is, but I just have this sense that these tactics, they are not working. They are completely

backfiring. We saw it in Buffalo too. Remember Howard Schultz came in and made that weird like Holocaust analogy that I was like, what is this all about? They flooded the zone with all these corporate executives and these captive audience meetings and every other tactic they could think of. And it didn't work. And not only did it not work, I really think that is part of why you have seen this take off in the way that it has. So, listen, Layla, I really hope for the best for her. I know she has big ambitions. I hope she stays engaged in the labor movement.

And I think that this movement is only going to continue to grow. I think this is just the tip of the iceberg. I think in the social media age, you're right. This is not, you know, 1896 where you can just disappear people. With the internet and with organization, Twitter, and the open channels of communication, I do think it is just impossible, and especially people like us who bring attention and who talk about it. So I expect that there will be a backlash. And like we said, even this is a victory.

Stopping stock buybacks and making them pay more in salary, that is a titanic shift in corporate behavior in the span of, what, a year? Relative to how they were conducting themselves previously. So let's keep it going. All right, Sagar, what are you looking at? Well, as I've said here before on the show, out of all the mega billionaires in our society, the only one I really respect is Elon Musk. That doesn't mean he's above criticism, as I've shown here before in detailing his financial ties to the Chinese regime.

But I do find that most people in elite media criticize Elon because of his occasionally cringe Twitter feed. But more importantly, his general refusal to bow to whatever the trendy thing is in our current elite culture and to buck those trends. One of those issues where Elon has stood fast, at least in rhetoric, has been free speech, where he released a tantalizing and interesting poll on Twitter several days ago, asking if, quote, free speech is essential to a functioning democracy. Do you believe Twitter rigorously adheres to this principle? 30% of respondents said yes, I'd love to meet those folks. 70% said no. Elon mysteriously replied, quote, the consequences of this poll will be

important. Please vote carefully. Now, it's very likely that decision may have already been made, as when Elon released his latest poll on whether he should buy Twitter stock or not. But it still stunned the world when yesterday morning, Elon filed paperwork with the SEC disclosing that he had purchased a 9% stake in Twitter. The 9.2% stake Elon has acquired within Twitter makes him the largest single shareholder in the company, and it opens up all sorts of interesting possibilities. Just this morning, they announced he'll be joining the board of directors. And to put it in perspective, Elon now owns four times as much of Twitter as Twitter founder and former CEO Jack Dorsey, an absolutely astounding percentage of the company. Now, to be clear, it's a little bit wonky here. He does not own a more than 10% or known as an

insider stake of the company, and he is disclosing instead a passive role. Still, he has a board seat, so it's important. Twitter's stock popped nearly 25% of the news that Elon had acquired it, but more interesting to me is how is this going to change things? You see, Twitter has been going through a very rough patch business-wise for some time. Jack Dorsey's departure, while spun as voluntary, was the result of immense pressure from outside investors who wanted Twitter to pursue more subscription products, and they wanted to get rid of Dorsey, who they saw as absentee and not very good at his job. As a result of this, Dorsey was forced out in a reorganization of the company and a reshuffling

of the board, which is why they turned to well-liked Parag Agarwal as the new CEO. Parag, a former engineer, was tapped mostly because he didn't offend anybody and because the main demand from the new investors was that he continue product innovation at a faster pace. What they ignored was this. None of that is really that hard. And in tapping Agarwal, they elevated somebody to the position of CEO, who is clearly not thought that hard about the way that Twitter influences discourse, especially amongst elites, and whether the First Amendment matters or not. As Agarwal himself said before he became the CEO, quote, our role is not to be bound by the First Amendment when it relates to censorship. Instead, he reiterated that making people feel

safe was the priority. Classic activist nonsense. Exactly the wrong choice. What this highlighted to me at that time was how awful a choice that Agarwal was for CEO. I wrote this, ironically enough, on Twitter in reaction. Quote, none of the big problems that Twitter faces in the next five years are tech ones. They are socio-political. They require principles and forethought as to how policy applies in controversial use cases. I added, choosing someone who clearly does not have a track record of this type of management will lead to more haphazard enforcement, more woke employee results, and worse public discourse. In other words, the biggest problem that Twitter faces has nothing

to do with engineering. And honestly, even with business, their stock and their value is inextricably linked to the fact that while yes, the majority of the US population is not on Twitter, that the elites overwhelmingly are. In almost every sector, sports, news, politics, finance, venture capital, each individual sector has its own Twitterverse, where being somebody actually does mean something, very much so in the real world. you is why it's important to understand then its content policy and why then when they ban the Hunter Biden laptop story, when they cancel or they take off accounts of elected representatives and even the sitting president of the United States, that a discussion around those principles is so important. That is where Elon can come in. The truth is from a business perspective, there is not much except the current ad business and subscription products that Twitter blew, like Twitter blew, that is left to be done over there. But some of the most critical decisions in company history are coming. First and foremost is this. Donald

Trump is probably running for president again. If he does, and especially if he wins the GOP nomination, is Twitter really not going to let him back on that platform? Because that seems crazy. I'm of the opinion that world leaders, no matter who they are, Kim Jong-un, Ayatollah Khomeini, Chairman Xi, and others should never be taken off the platform. Why? Because I think the public interest outweighs any stupid trust and safety policy at Twitter. But the election aside, Twitter has other big problems to solve. They already flubbed the lab leak in the early days of COVID. What if we have another pandemic? They banned the Hunter Biden laptop story, as I already mentioned. Their ad hoc policy under the new CEO even led to a new stupid rule that would effectively take

away your right to record somebody who is wronging you and then post a video of it online because they're a private citizen. In short, the content policies of Twitter have a huge impact on the world around us. If Musk can have any effect at all, it will be his ability to influence the company in that way. And as a friend of mine put it, this is basically a win-win situation. Either Musk impacts the company in a positive way and we have freer speech, or we learn that all the BS about shareholder activism was actually fake in the first place. And then we get to explore more creative solutions for making Twitter better for all of us. Either way, it's a good thing. So, Elon, I wish you the best of luck.

There was Obama's triumphant return to the White House. Speaking of boomers. And it didn't go so well for the current president. The former president really upstaging him. So first, we're going to show you a joke he made about Biden being vice president. It'll be relevant in a moment. And second, just in terms of how the former president was received as a rock star at the current president's White House. Let's take a listen.

Vice President Biden. Vice President. That was a joke. That was all set up. Mr. President, what do you say to Democrats worried about the midterms? What do you tell Democrats worried about the midterms? We got a story to tell. Just got to tell it.

What's happening in Ukraine making free finger decision, Mr. President? Go ahead and play the next clip, guys. This one shows President Obama being fettered at the White House, while you can also see at the same time President Biden in the background basically being ignored the entire time. That's brutal. For those who are just listening, I'm sorry. But we had to make sure that people just saw how President Obama is shaking hands. Even Kamala is there. And the president of the United States is seated in the background. And this did not go unnoticed by some of Biden's advisers. Let's put this up there on the screen from Alex

Thompson saying, quote, I can tell you not everyone in Biden world thought that the vice president Biden joke was all that funny. And really, it just goes to show you, Crystal, that Obama still is the rock star of the Democratic Party. Biden was always the reluctant choice. And even at his own White House, he's upstaged by the former president. It's frankly humiliating for the former president. I mean, for the current president to be treated in such a way. I don't even mean with a joke, but really in terms of you could see the energy that was there for Obama himself. And with Biden, it's just not there. And that's, I mean, yeah.

What else do you say about that? That's really embarrassing for our current president. Yeah, the moment that we showed where he's kind of like standing awkwardly around at the party trying to jump into a conversation. I think we've all had that moment. It's very relatable, but we haven't all been president of the United States. I think the other thing that all of this shows is it's no accident Obama is brought in now as Democrats are fully pressing the panic button on the midterm elections. They see the polling. It's not getting better. In fact, in some ways,

it's getting worse. The landscape looks extraordinarily dire. I mean, I'm seeing projections now that on the current track and with demographics, especially Latinos, shifting to the Republican Party, you could end up not only with Trump in the White House, but with him having a freaking super majority in the Senate and control of the House. So Democrats have sort of like fully awakened to the absolute disaster that is awaiting them electorally. And we'll get into some of the specific mistakes that they have made themselves. And so what do they reach for? They reach for Obama, who has been proven time and time again to, even though he remains a lot of, he retains a lot of personal popularity within the Democratic base, but he has never demonstrated an ability to bring anyone along on the ride of

his own personal popularity. Barack Obama is very good for Barack Obama, and that's about it. So it's also a very sad indictment of the Democratic Party that all they know how to do is to try to live off the fumes of the Obama glory years. And it kind of reminds me of during the George W. Bush administration when all they really knew how to do was live off the fumes of the Clinton years, which, you know, history has not treated kindly when you consider tax cuts to the rich and ending welfare as we know it. And of course, NAFTA and many other sins during the Clinton years, an entire shift of the party away from its working class base and towards sort of like upwardly mobile suburban professionals. The Obama years are going to wear poorly over time as well

and already have been in a dramatic sense rejected in terms of a policy perspective by the American people. That's why Trump got elected in part. And yet this is all they know how to reach for instead of actually trying to deliver material benefits to the American population that might in the long run inure to their political benefit. It's also very telling that this, you know, excuse to bring him back to the White House, it was all about sort of shoring up his core legislative initiative, Obamacare, closing one of the convoluted loopholes that they left in there in order to try to appease this or that Republican talking point. And so even the fact that they're

still leaning so heavily on Obamacare after all these years, a policy that is an improvement over what it was before, but has major problems and effectively was a giveaway to the health insurance industry, is also very telling. So with regards to some of the own goals of the Democratic Party, there's some new polling that really puts a pretty fine point on it. Let's put this up on the screen. So we've talked about this a little bit before, but we've got some new polls in this regard. You'll recall that as part of the relief package that was passed last year, they included one year of child tax credit, relatively universal benefit that went to families. It was extremely effective

in helping to eliminate child poverty and child hunger. Well, they did not renew it. The whole assumption was this will be so good that, of course, we're going to renew it. Like, of course, Manchin and whoever will get on board, and even some Republicans may come on board to make sure we retain the child tax credit. Well, that didn't happen. So the benefit has dried up. And you used to have among the group of people who received the child tax credit, the child tax credit recipients, Democrats had a 12 point advantage with this group. Okay. So if you were getting the child tax credit benefit, you were more likely to vote for Democrats by 12 points. Now that that benefit has dried up, this very same group actually narrowly favors Republicans. So for all of the conversation about how culture war is everything and it's the

only thing people care about, it's the only thing people vote on, that's just not true. It's just that neither party actually offers a material plan that voters might get on board with and not have yanked out from underneath of them after like a measly few months. We also talked about with regards to Obamacare, another thing that they passed in that relief package was expanded subsidies to make Obamacare more affordable. These are subsidies that should have been there in the bill from the beginning, but they were worried about like, oh, they're going to say we're spending too much money, which of course they said that anyway, so it didn't even matter.

So they didn't pass the subsidies to start with. They put them in for one year in this relief package because again, they were worried about, oh, we can't put it in permanently because it'll cost too much money. Now they're going away and guess when people are going to get the letter that says, oh, your health insurance premiums are about to skyrocket October, right before the November elections. And as I mentioned last time, the group, and it's the American prospect who did the great reporting on this, the group that is most likely to see skyrocketing health insurance premiums because of all the weird quirks and means testing in this law, middle class, older Americans, the very group that is most likely to vote. So all of this is a long way of saying that there have been many world events which have transpired,

which are not really Biden's fault. What he has done with him and his failures and his complete utter lack of leadership and the fact that all they can do is like pull Obama out of the bag and beg voters to please show up, even though Obama did his thing again and being like, well, I can't promise that much, but you should vote for us anyway. That's all they got, and it's sad and it's pathetic. If all you got is to resurrect a law that you passed 13 years ago, there's a little bit of a problem. Remember when we did something that was moderately okay sometimes for you?

We can not even do that anymore, but you should vote for us anyway. Actually think about where you were 13 years ago and then be like, wait, they still want me to remember that and then vote on that in the election. What are you doing? That's why we pulled that clip of me like, we've got a story to tell. Just got to tell the story. What? What does that mean? As usual, he continues to keep this up. Vote for us because we're better than the other guy. How's that working out for you? The child tax credit polling is great. I mean, look, the other thing is, like you said, with Biden, there's a lot of stuff that's out of control.

But losing by five and losing by 12 is a totally different ballgame in terms of the Senate, in terms of the midterms, and more. As we saw many times throughout history, like, there are still within Biden's control, which he has flubbed. And you can't just blame it all. You know, asking Obama to bail you out, it's not going to work. Ask Hillary. Yeah. And as we began the block with, like, the comparison was not particularly favorable for Biden in the end here. So, yeah, kind of sad statement on the Democratic Party.

Joining us now, the man himself, Matt Taibbi of TK News, which you all should be subscribed to on Substack. Great to see you, my friend. Good to see you, man. Good to see you. Good to see you both. So let's go ahead and put this piece you wrote up on the screen, which I rather enjoyed, but I'm sure, as usual, got you in some hot water. This should not be a controversial take, but your headline here is, Regime change doesn't work, you morons. How many examples of regime change blowing up in our faces do we really need before realizing it's a disastrous policy? Will we really try it with a nuclear armed adversary? Matt, just give us a few examples for those who need like a little historical

reminder of all of our attempts at regime change and how that exactly has gone? Well, obviously the two most recent ones were Iraq and Afghanistan, with Iraq being the signature program because we, well, actually in both of those cases, we spent massive amounts of money. I mean, trillions of dollars and a lot of lives and basically ended up worse off than we were before the operation started. But even before that, we have a lengthy history of trying to overturn foreign governments, install leaders. The most recent incarnation of this idea is that we were trying to install liberal democracies everywhere, but that wasn't always the case. Sometimes we were trying to install authoritarians who were more friendly to the United States, like in the case of the Shah.

But the new fad is let's make countries everywhere liberal democracies, and that way we won't have any war or conflict. And it just hasn't worked because we can't, it's a naive belief that we can force other countries to adopt a system that they may not have any history with. Matt, what do you think that this impetus comes from? We were talking about this earlier in the show. I mean, how can you, I don't understand how you can live through Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan in the last 20 years and be like, you can you, I don't understand how you can live through Iraq, Libya, Syria, Afghanistan in the last 20 years and be like, you know what, this time, the fifth time, that's the charm. I'm being facetious, but it's a real thing. A lot of the people in our elite media actually believe this. Where does this come from? I have no idea. And I would add a lot of the countries in the former soviet union because

that's apropos to this discussion i mean part of the reason that i feel so hardened about this issue is that you know i lived in russia uh and in uzbekistan and some other parts of the former soviet union during a time when we thought that it would be as simple as, well, let's give these countries stock markets, elections, and some other institutions, and they will instantly become American-friendly allies. And then before you know it, we're fixing elections so that they go wrong when you try to install a leader in a foreign country. People think that somehow that foreign populations won't react negatively to that. And they always do. Yeah, well, and even before we get to the conversation whether or not it works, it's also illegal. So like on its face, even if you could be persuaded

that like, no, this time it really would work, we still shouldn't do it. You know, you have this line in here that I think is really interesting you talk about. I think this is Thomas Friedman who had, is that right? Who had the McDonald's theory, which is- The golden arches theory, yeah. Yes, when a country reaches a certain level of economic

development, when it has a middle class big enough to support a McDonald's, it becomes a McDonald's country. And people in McDonald's countries don't like to fight wars. They like to wait in line for burgers. Now, I have seen a lot of sort of triumphalism from neoliberals who are basically like, see, our worldview is validated by what's happening in the world right now. And I just see it as complete opposite. I mean, in a lot of ways, we were instrumental in architecting the Russian regime that exists today. And so for me, the events that are unfolding are a thorough indictment of that view of the world. Yeah, absolutely. And I can say that as somebody who,

as a young reporter, was sent out to cover the ribbon cuttings of all those American institutions. Yeah, like, well, not McDonald's, but KFC, like, you know, Ikea, obviously is a Swedish thing. But yeah, there was a belief that once we gave them the consumer economy and some of the superficial trappings of Western culture, that immediately they would come over on board and they would be like us. And this, I think, stems from a fundamental misunderstanding of the idea that cultures can be different, that they can have different histories and different reactions to things. So, yeah, both Ukraine and Russia had McDonald's and now they're, you know, at each other's throats. And the McDonald's obviously didn't help a whole lot.

So, yeah, it's just further evidence that this is collapsing. But more to the point, what's going on is what I fear is that the United States is not letting Ukraine or not empowering Ukraine to make its own decisions about how to negotiate its way out of this war. And that is going to lead to a quagmire of the type that we're familiar with. I completely agree. I'll make a controversial statement. I think McDonald's tastes the best in authoritarian countries. It actually does. I had a taro pie in China, and that thing was good. All right, well, I can't speak authoritarian countries,

but I did spend six weeks while I was pregnant in India, and I ate an inordinate number of McChickens in India, and it was like a lifeline. Maharaja burger is a real thing. On a serious note, Matt, what do you think is the Biden administration's policy? And I don't think you'll mind if I share that we were kind of talking a little bit offline about this. And we're saying like, you know, we've gotten some leaks of administration officials who were like, you know, the real end game here is Putin out of power. Now, they think they can accomplish that without going in militarily just by like

squeezing them through sanctions and praying and hoping and hoping to foment some sort of protest movement that effectuates a coup against the government. But, you know, shortly after we're having that conversation about, well, maybe it's just incompetence and they don't really have a plan or a goal here. Biden comes out and says Putin cannot remain in power and, in my opinion, seems to sort of give up the game about what they're really thinking. So how do you read the tea leaves of what the administration is actually doing, what they're actually thinking, and what their real goals are here? Well, it sure seems like, you know, dating back years that they've had a plan about having a military presence there. They announced their intention to try to expand NATO to Ukraine.

But more recently, I think what you've seen is a number of quotes by officials who are saying exactly what you said. Like the end game is we want to drag Russia into a quagmire. That was in a David Sanger piece in the New York Times. There was a Bloomberg piece that quoted some British officials saying that our number one option is to bleed Putin. You know, we want the conflict extended. And there's a logic to that unless you're ukrainian right uh because basically what the what the west is saying is we think that this is going to be politically costly costly for putin and that ultimately this will result in political instability back in russia and he'll leave power

there are two errors that thinking number one it doesn't take into account the cost to Ukraine. The other one is, who's to say that the person who replaces Putin won't be worse than Putin? Because there is that wing of the Russian government that's waiting to come in and correct the embarrassment that they feel that they're going through. So I actually do think that that's what they're thinking is that we want this to go on for a while. There's some evidence for that. And they think that, you know, it'll result in a new leader in Russia that will be more amenable to them. I think whenever we look at all this, Matt, what we just see is that when you have a lack of coherence in strategy, what fills the

void are the most powerful, immovable forces, which remains interventionism. And in that context, what are some of the danger points that we should look to? People forget, it may seem like it's been a long time. We're a very, very short time in the history of most conflicts. They last for years. I mean, what are some of the potential danger points that we could be coming up on in the near future? Well, I think we're already at one of them, which is where Zelensky asks for United States help in achieving a diplomatic solution and doesn't really get an answer. Because if the United States sort of essentially opts out of the diplomatic process, then Zelensky is no longer empowered to negotiate his way out of this conflict.

And really, Russia's really at war with us and not with Ukraine. And that massively complicates the situation. In other words, if Zelensky doesn't have the authority to sit at the table and say, all right, I accept those terms, the sanctions will be over tomorrow, then we're at cross purposes. Then the situation gets much more complicated. So I think that's one big thing is that if we don't participate in a peace process, then, you know, that's a major indication that something much bigger already than what's going on is afoot. I think that's all really valuable insight and perspective.

Guys, go and subscribe to Matt Substack. His insights here are really invaluable. Thank you so much, Matt. Great to see you. Thanks, man. Thanks so much, Crystal Sager. Take care. Our pleasure. It's great to see you, man. Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it. Thanks, man. Thanks so much, Crystal Sager. Take care. Our pleasure. It's great to see you, man. Thank you guys so much for watching. We really appreciate it.

You know, look, it's been a fun week. I told you all the Taylor Lorenz segment got demonetized. Still zero explanation from YouTube as to what exactly happened there. And that's exactly the issue. Being reliant on these ridiculous content policies, be it the election or this harassment, whatever that means exactly, just means that the only people who can rely on are you. As we were actually talking about our budget today, I mean, yeah, compared to CNN, it's not that big, but we have all these For us, it's a lot.

For us, it's a lot. And in terms of our partnerships and the general cost of running all this and editing time and continuing to hire and explore better ways to give you guys the midterms. It's a lot of fun. And we have a very, very big announcement that's going to be coming on our Monday show about what's happening next week. I'm really excited to debut it. It involves a little bit of travel on our end. So that's a little bit of tease, but there's going to be a big thing happening next week that you're all going to want to tune into. And our premium subscribers are going to get a very, very special benefit that some of them have been asking for for a long time. So it's going to be fun. We can't wait to debut it.

And we'll see you all next week. That's right. We're expanding. We're adding. We're traveling. We're doing all the things, guys. And we couldn't be happier to have your support in all of it. So thank you.

Enjoy your weekend. We're going to have some great content for you then. And we'll see you back here for a full show on Monday. Have you ever thought about going voiceover? I'm Hope Woodard, a comedian, creator, and seeker of male validation. I'm also the girl behind voiceover, the movement that exploded in 2024. You might hear that term and think it's about celibacy, but to me, voiceover is about understanding yourself outside of sex and relationships. It's flexible, it's customizable, and it's a personal process. Singleness is not a waiting room. You are actually

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