Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - EMERGENCY POD: Tucker Carlson AND Don Lemon OUT AT Fox, CNN

Episode Date: April 24, 2023

Krystal and Saagar hop into an emergency podcast to discuss the breaking news this morning surrounding the announcement that Tucker Carlson is out at Fox News and just minutes later the news that Don Lemon is out at CNN. Krystal and Saagar discuss what a momentous day this is for cable news media.To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.supercast.com/To listen to Breaking Points as a podcast, check them out on Apple and SpotifyApple: https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/breaking-points-with-krystal-and-saagar/id1570045623 Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/show/4Kbsy61zJSzPxNZZ3PKbXl Merch: https://breaking-points.myshopify.com/ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoicesSee omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. Hello, everybody. Literally breaking news almost minutes after we sent out our full show to premium subscribers, but that's how it works sometimes. Fox News Media and Tucker Carlson are officially parting ways. Let's go and put this statement up on the screen. Quote, Fox News Media and Tucker Carlson have agreed to part ways. We thank him for his service to the network as a host and prior to that as a contributor.

Mr. Carlson's program was last program was Friday, April 21st. Fox News Tonight will air live at 8 p.m. Eastern Standard Time starting this evening as an interim show helmed by rotating Fox News personalities until a new host is named. So obviously, basically nobody in the business expected that, Crystal. No. Talking with you a little bit before, I think a lot of people know this. I got my start in media working for Tucker Carlson at The Daily Caller. From what I can gather amongst many of my former colleagues, this was not necessarily expected. This was not a decision that was that at the very least was not a surprise to a lot of people who are in the know or in the business.

It might have been potentially last minute on some longstanding tensions between Tucker and overall Fox News media. But this is a titanic event in cable news. Tucker was by far the largest host in all of cable. He was the largest personality on Fox News. He had the best numbers amongst the key demographic. And he was a you know, he had the best access, I would say, to Trump himself. What's your immediate reaction to the way that this all went down? Well, I mean, first thing, to your point, this is monumental.

I mean, he is the top rated cable news host in all of television. And we have always said there are basically two people in cable news who can generate their own following, who have a real tribe, who shows up to them as appointment viewing. One of those is Rachel Maddow, who is no longer a nightly presence on MSNBC. And the other one was Tucker Carlson, who is no longer a nightly presence on MSNBC. And the other one was Tucker Carlson, who now we know is out at Fox News. The first thing that your mind goes to is, of course, the timing, given that they just had this huge settlement with Dominion voting systems, largest defamation media settlement in history. So you wonder, OK,

was that related to this? Because you also have a Smartmatic lawsuit coming down the pike. You also had shareholders looking at whether they were going to sue the the company as well and board of directors for mishandling the election claims. So you wonder if this is somehow related to those settlements, if the overall company felt that he had become too much of a liability, because even i mean there were some you know there were some poor reporting let's just say that was on the tucker carlson program during the election season but he wasn't out there the way like lou dobbs and maria bartiromo were but the text messages that came out from him saying that he hates trump and he's a demonic force, et cetera, obviously very embarrassing. The other thing, just from a business perspective, you might look at this and go,

God, he's their highest rated show. And he's obviously like a tent pole for them in prime time. And he's like the quarterback of Fox News at this point. However, the ratings don't matter if advertisers aren't willing to spend money during your hour. So the business piece of this may be a little bit less straightforward than would initially meet the eye. So as I understand it, one of the reasons why he was so important to the network, Crystal, is that his young demographic numbers were a key negotiation point in the cable carriage fee negotiation, which is coming up. So just so everybody understands, a vast majority of Fox News's profit comes from the cable carriers paying them a fee to remain part of the cable bundle. Now, as again, one of the cases that Fox was making is no, we're not just an aging cable news program. We also have this show in primetime, which is watched by a couple

hundred thousand people in the young demo. I'm not saying these are great numbers because the overall millions of people who consumed it were definitely outside the demo, but they were better than other people who were on Fox News. So first of all, that's one major thing. The other one, and this is where it comes back to me, is the future of the network. I actually went back and just looked it up. I'm looking at a 2021 article here about Tucker Carlson inks a new multi-year deal with Fox Media, expands his presence with a Fox News Nation video podcast and special. So they were kind of betting the internal streaming future of Fox News and the Fox News platform on Fox Nation, basically a subscription-based kind of extra content. It was like CNN+, but I don't know, I guess for boomers. So the Tucker Carlson hour and all that,

you had to subscribe, you had to watch it, buy the scenes, they built a new set, all of this. So first of all, immediately to my mind is, wow. So the future, the Fox Nation, basically entire programming was anchored almost entirely to Tucker and his personality. It was by far the only thing that was even watched on Fox Nation. As I understand it, Fox Nation has not been a particularly big business success, but whatever it was, was basically tied to his personality and not some

of the other content there. So on the streaming side, this is a big problem for them. But overall, and here's where I'm curious. I know people have said it before. Fox is dead after Megyn Kelly. Megyn Kelly's show was great. It was certainly, it was a very good program, but it was an interview program and had more to do with news. The only real comp is O'Reilly. O'Reilly, everybody says O'Reilly was bigger than Fox News. And I think it's important to step back in time and actually look what happened.

Tucker did not replace O'Reilly. He actually basically created an entire new show, ideas that not really had been aired, at least in some part on the Fox News platform, and brought in a much younger demographic by focusing, I think, undeniably on things that most people on Fox were just not as traditionally into. Same like Sean Hannity, who we replaced and supplanted as the major number one person on the platform. And that's ultimately kind of what got him the position that he had at Fox. So I do think this is a new situation simply because, look, I mean, it's almost been, what, 2017 is when O'Reilly left Fox News.

So it's been several years since that happened. The Fox News platform has frankly only gotten older. They haven't added more younger people. Second, they don't have the same bench here i mean who is the biggest guy at fox now gutfeld like and look no offense gutfeld but uh you're not carrying the network the way that still be hannity right well i mean but i think i think gut if we if we think about it, I guess Hannity would come in second numbers overall. But he doesn't seem to have the same energy and almost like the controversy, all of that, that used to swirl around O'Reilly and Tucker in terms of their signature personalities. He almost seems to be more of a follower of the news than a creator of it in the way that well hannity's just sort of a standard issue partisan cheerleader you know whatever is going on in the republican party he's going to defend it it's very predictable right which has a certain audience and obviously he he also benefited from coming after in the lineup at this point tucker and can sort

of carry that audience over a lot of the cable news business is just about who you come after. And so if you have someone who can bring people in, then it's just a matter of you trying to hold on to that audience for your show as well. I mean, I am reminded, I'm just kind of going back through my mind over the past couple of weeks. Tucker also did just have a bit of a mini scandal with regard to you know these leaked um Discord documents where he took as credible he took as credible the uh the one document that we know was altered to make the Russian casualty numbers look more favorable and make and inflate the Ukrainian casualty numbers and he actually took that at face value and reported that as if it was fact. And in reality, it was like the one part of those documents that was provably false. So maybe that was like the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe that was one embarrassment

too many. And then also remember that, you know, the shareholders and investors in Fox News are, you know, may have a different view of what the business model should look like. And there is a real succession drama going on behind the scenes about who will succeed Rupert Murdoch. And of the two sons, one of them is very Tucker-ish, and one of them is much more sort of moderate or even like sort of liberal, liberal sympathetic, I guess I would say. So there's also a split in what direction the company might go in. So, listen, I think it's possible. Tucker was like, look, I'm a rich man. I don't really want to do this anymore. I'm just going to go do my thing in the woods. To me, though, the way this came down so abruptly, as someone who has been let go of a from a cable news show before,

the way they do it is you don't know until you do your show and then they call you into the office and then they tell you you're fired. And you never get to be on air again because they don't want someone who's already been told they're let go to then go on their air. And God knows they're in YOLO mode. God knows what they're going to say to the audience. So the fact that this clearly happened after his show on Friday, they made a point of being like, he's never coming on our air again, makes me feel like it is more likely Fox News is letting him go versus him just sort of amicably deciding like,

hey guys, thanks for the years. I'm just going to go and like enjoy my life now. Yeah, I think you're right. So there's a couple of possibilities. I think all it points to is abruptness, right? So either A, he was fired. B, they were like, and they had planned to do so. B, they had asked him to do something like maybe read a statement or maybe comply and

potentially one of their future lawsuits. And he said, no, screw you. I'm going to walk. And they said, no, screw you. I'm going to walk. And they said, OK, well, then you're fired. I guess those are really the only two scenarios. Somebody obviously pulled the plug at an abrupt nature. They had a multi-year deal on the books. There's a big question, too, around his future.

Now, look, I don't have any idea about his contract. I don't know how it was negotiated. But I do know that cable news non-competes are insane. Maybe he can thank the Biden administration if they do make not enforceable. I don't know. But, you know, at the very least, this is a hundred million dollar asset that has now walked out of the door at the very least. So they very much could try and pursue him. Maybe he had stronger protections in his contract if he was able to leave what he was able to do, if he had the ability to pursue a podcast and all that, because it seemed like what Fox had done is they basically rolled up all of the rights to his personality inside of the Fox brand.

So by leaving that, he's not only leaving the show behind, if he doesn't have robust IP protection in his contracts, he could be real hamstrung in terms of what he's even allowed to do. True. And there could be a period like, for example, after Megyn Kelly was out at Fox, there was a period where, you know, she negotiated, she got the NBC contract, but then they had to wait until she could actually start the show. And that would be typical. There would be some sort of a waiting period before Tucker would be able to do anything else with another networker on his own.

If he wants to continue creating content, you know, for better or worse, there's definitely an audience for it. I mean, he doesn't need Fox News at this point. And even from the time when, you know, Glenn Beck left or when Bill O'Reilly was out, the ability to immediately have your own podcast, have your own media brand, have your own platform, you know, he would be successful,

I have no doubt, if he wants to go in that direction and he would be unshackled from whatever limited, apparently, constraints they put on him over there at Fox News. So, you know, I don't think that we've heard the last of him very likely. No question. I mean, look, I've always believed he would be incredibly successful if he left Fox. I don't even think Fox was ever good for him. I think the cable in general is a terrible platform for anybody who has more than IQ of 12. Yes, I think that Hannity is better suited for Fox News. And look, I don't think it's a deniable, as you said, that he clearly will be doing something. Also, look, just in terms of the level of credibility, I think that he has

not only with Trump, but with a lot of people who vote for Trump is not something that you can really put aside. That's why I really believe this could be fundamentally different in terms of its impact on Fox News as an overall brand. They don't have the same level bench for personalities. They don't have anyone who necessarily kind of, quote, does the same thing. That's always always been unique in that way. Look, I could be completely wrong, right? I mean, maybe they'll hire somebody and they'll hire someone to try and, you know, recreate the aggregate. It's certainly possible. But with all of the wins against cable, and not only that, they just had this humiliating $1 billion settlement.

So they're squeezed, really, from both ends, both by the audience and by the overall lawsuit. So, yeah, look, I mean, it's a good day if you don't like Fox News. I can't help but smile. I'm not going to lie don't like Fox News. I can't help but smile. I hate Fox News. I hate cable news in general. Me too. I think the fact that you now have the two biggest cable news stars basically out, you know, Rachel Maddow very much of her own doing and Tucker very likely because of Fox deciding.

But we'll see what the details are as they come out. It's just a signal of how much that whole industry is dying. We've been talking about how it's like a zombie business model has been for a while. And, you know, I think, I think this really helps to paint that picture of an industry that why would anyone who has a genuine following who is, you know, able to create content that's compelling to people, that people want to watch, that they want to pay for, why would you shackle yourself to cable news at this time? It doesn't make any sense from a personal decision. So, again, I suspect that Fox pushed him out rather than the other way around just because of the way that this went down.

We'll see. But still, I just don't think you're likely to see stars of the level of a Tucker or a Rachel moving into the future. I think those days are past. Yeah, I mean, it's funny. Somebody texted me and goes, so when is Fox going to hire you? I was like, first of all, that's not going to happen.

Second of all, why would we take the demotion? Yeah, I want to go work for Rupert Murdoch. Instead of people watching this show, there ain't no amount of money in the world that is worth that. So anyway, kind of funny. All right, guys, big day. I'm sure we'll have more to talk about tomorrow as more insight comes out. I asked him for the record

i was like hey what's going on haven't heard anything back so that's where we are right now if i hear anything else i'll let you guys know hello again everybody we're seconds away from recording breaking news about tucker carlson out over at fox news when lo and behold, the news fairy comes and gives us this. So let me go ahead and put it up there on the screen. From one Don Lemon, I was informed this morning by my agent, I have been terminated by CNN. I am stunned. After 17 years at CNN, I would have thought someone in management would have had the decency to tell me directly. At no time was I given any indication I would not be able to continue to do the work I have loved at the network. It is clear there are some larger issues at play. With that said, I want to thank my colleagues and the many teams I have worked with for an incredible run.

They are the most talented journalists in the business, and I wish them all the best. So, the news gods are raining on us today oh my god i mean i what are we gonna do this he was such a farm of content and he was you know he was such a trusted name and such a great show so so good at his job so professional respectful of women i mean i'm just heartbroken what are women gonna do with those heartbroken over both of these, the loss of both of these individuals from the cable news landscape. When I saw this announcement on Twitter, I mean, first of all, because blue checks don't mean anything anymore, the lack of a check or whatever. Like, it's so hard to know whether it's a real thing or not. And then the fact that we had just gotten the news that Tucker was out, I was like, this cannot possibly be real.

But it is. It's real. I mean, just to remind everybody, in real hot water over at CNN, he was forced into these, like, sexism reeducation trainings over his comments about, quote unquote, prime women after Nikki Haley announced there were a lot of there was visible on air tension between him and both of his two female colleagues. He'd already been sort of demoted from having his own primetime slot. He billed that as no, this isn't a devotion to go to the morning show. But clearly, you know, I think that it was to share the stage with two other people is a lot different than having your own primetime show. And then just on the metrics, the show hasn't done well. It's more poorly rated than the previous iteration of The Morning Show,

which I personally thought when it was John Berman and Alison Camerata was actually much better. John Berman and Poppy Harlow, I think it was for a while as well, that rated better than the current relaunch of this thing, which is supposed to be the new boss's real imprint that he was putting on the network. And so, yeah, when you have someone who is highly paid and poorly rated that people don't like,

you shouldn't be surprised when this is ultimately the outcome. I think it's clear this man is a pig behind the scenes. He's a disgusting person, doesn't treat people well. He's an egomaniac, narcissist, psycho. And all of that started to come out. Now we got a little bit more news here. I can read, Crystal. CNN's Chris Licht says, to my CNN colleagues, CNN and Don have parted ways. Don will forever be part of the CNN family. We thank him for his contributions over the past 17 years. We wish them well, and we will colleagues, CNN and Don, have parted ways. Don will forever be part of the CNN family. We thank him for his contributions over the past 17 years. We wish them well and we will be cheering him on his continued endeavors.

Here's the key part. CNN this morning has been on the air for nearly six months. We are committed to its success. So, what does that mean? That their poorly rated morning show where Lemon was the anchor, is going to continue. So good luck to Poppy Harlow and Caitlin Collins.

No offense. I think even fewer people will be watching if that is somehow even possible. I don't think that show is long for this world. Crystal, I believe that some of this might have come because of that deadline article that we brought everybody here about his treatment of past female colleagues where past behavior involving his disgusting behavior towards women uh had surfaced and they probably had either launched a new investigation or there might have been even incidents that we don't even know about crystal behind the scenes of other women or other

inappropriate conduct that he's been conduct that he's been doing. We know that the CEO already hated him. And, you know, it could just be straw that broke the camel's back here. Well, you get away with a lot, unfortunately, when you're a news anchor so long as times are good. If you aren't delivering and you are highly paid and you've become a liability for the network, then suddenly, yeah, the knives are going to come out. Suddenly things that they would have just buried on the carpet or, you know, just defended them over or ignored or whatever, suddenly those things become reasons to part company. Now, one thing that I think is different business-wise from the Tucker Fox situation and the CNN Don Lemon situation is I think Fox losing Tucker in terms of ratings is a blow.

I think there could be a sort of like revolt among some part of their base audience. I don't think anyone, any CNN watcher is really gonna care that Don Lemon is gone. I don't think it's gonna matter for their ratings for the morning show. I don't think it's gonna matter for their ratings overall. I don't think it's going to matter for their ratings for the morning show. I don't think it's going to matter for their ratings overall. I don't think that there's going to be any sort of viewer revolt.

I think business as usual will, mediocre business as usual, will just continue over there. Absolutely right. Man, news gods, give us a break here. All right? We're trying to write monologues for tomorrow's show. And yet, here I am. I didn't even get a chance to take off my tie.

But you know what? That's what I love. I live for moments like this. It's a hell of a lot of fun. I guess enjoy the rest of the show that we taped earlier. I'm sure this is all anybody's going to watch today. That's okay. That's why we do it here.

We'll see you guys tomorrow. Over the years of making my true crime podcast, Hell and Gone, That's okay. That's why we do it here. We'll see you guys tomorrow. The murderer is still out there. Each week, I investigate a new case. If there is a case we should hear about, call 678-744-6145. Listen to Hell and Gone Murder Line on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I know a lot of cops. They get asked all the time, have you ever had to shoot your gun? Sometimes the answer is yes. But there's a company dedicated to a future where the answer will always be no. This is Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated. I get right back there and it's bad. Listen to Absolute Season 1, Taser Incorporated

on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Historically, men talk too much. And women have quietly listened. And all that stops here. If you like witty women, then this is your tribe. Listen to the Good Moms, Bad Choices podcast every Wednesday on the Black Effect Podcast Network, the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you go to find your podcasts. This is an iHeart Podcast.