Breaking Points with Krystal and Saagar - Tim Walz Vs. JD Vance Debate Best And Worst Moments

Episode Date: October 2, 2024

Krystal and Saagar react to the VP debate between JD Vance and Tim Walz.    To become a Breaking Points Premium Member and watch/listen to the show AD FREE, uncut and 1 hour early visit: https://breakingpoints.com/   Merch Store: https://shop.breakingpoints.com/See omnystudio.com/listener for privacy information.

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Hey guys, ready or not, 2024 is here, and we here at Breaking Points are already thinking of ways we can up our game for this critical election. We rely on our premium subs to expand coverage, upgrade the studio, add staff, give you guys the best independent coverage that is possible. If you like what we're all about, it just means the absolute world to have your support. But enough with that. Let's get to the show. OK, so we just finished the stirring conclusion there of Tim Walz versus J.D. Vance.

Riveting. I guess I'll give my overall top line thoughts. Obviously, on the gate, Tim Walz, super nervous. Very obviously, very nervous. And then as he sort of, as the debate went on, he got a lot more comfortable. Also, I think he was very uncomfortable on foreign policy, which is something that was kind of anticipated as a governor. He was like very nervous. Ryan doesn't have to sit in control right now.

And that's where the debate started. Yes, and that's where the debate started. So he was on very shaky ground. He had a really bad answer on the whole China Tiananmen Square thing. That was probably the low point for him. Going into the final minutes, you know, I was planning to come out here and say, you know, for sure, I thought J.D. got the better of him. And then we got to January 6th. And I think probably the moment that is going

to get replayed the most and was the most compelling through the whole thing was J.D. being unable to say that Joe Biden won the election. And in a very obvious way, you know, he just he gets asked directly by Tim Walz and he says, we're focused on the future. And Walz goes in and says, well, that was a damning non-answer. And I think that's, you know, that's the moment that out of everything is probably going to get the most traction. Is there any pragmatic case that you could possibly concoct that there's some voter who just really wants him to keep saying that he won the election? Well, I mean, Donald Trump. Yeah, his name is Donald Trump. No, no, no. I mean, Trump himself. Like Trump obviously dictated that J.D. Vance say what he says. Yes. Yeah, that's right. And then look, this is the problem. And I think that the debate performance highlights the strength and the

weakness of the Trump Vance ticket. Yeah, that's right. With Vance there at the top. I thought Vance, Amy Walters put this best. She goes, Vance actually is trying to talk to swing voters on every controversial issue. I thought his abortion answer is the best answer that a GOP politician has given since the fall of Roe, where he's basically like, look, we failed. We need to win your trust back. We're pro-family. It's heartbreaking. He's like almost tearing up talking about somebody he knows who had an abortion, a.k.a. compassion on housing, on many of the other issues.

He would say, I understand where you're coming from. He basically defended Obamacare. I thought he had a very – He really did. He effectively did. Like endorsed like healthcare for pre-existing. I mean he had a very, I effectively did, like endorsed like healthcare for pre-existing. I mean, that's incredible stuff here, right? We're talking about family. In general, he's very, very comfortable. This is where, all the way up until the election answer.

And the truth is, is that there's no good answer on that election whenever you're the vice presidential nominee on the Trump vans ticket. So what do we say? I'd say 87, 88, almost 90 minutes of a very, very good performance for him. Unfortunately, I think you're right, Crystal. The media is going to play that one up. You guys are going to be hearing it all goddamn day long from CNN, MSNBC, and everywhere else. And look, I was going to say, at the same time, it is justified because one of the main questions is around this quote unquote, like extremism. And one of the main questions is around this quote unquote like extremism. And one of the things I thought that J.D. very effectively did was not appear extreme on all the issues that they have been attacking them on, on immigration, on abortion or any of these, especially where there's a huge delta between where the Trump vance position is on a particular issue and then where public polling is, say abortion. So Trump obviously had a horrible answer on abortion and a horrible night there on Jan 6th and democracy, etc.

Whatever. He also had bad answers there. J.D., I think probably did the best that he could do. I don't know. I still think that he won, to be honest. I mean, I thought that Walz, and I'm biased, obviously, putting that out on the table, but I don't think Wallace came across in a particularly strong way with the China answer, which I thought was bad. In general, I just thought he was nervous. One of the better things for him

is that he's supposed to be relatable. He kind of got there a little bit. He was relatable. He definitely came across as, he definitely wasn't the, you know, Republicans. He was wooden to me. Republicans have a caricature of him as being like super weird and like, you know, like a freakish kind of character. And I think he came across as very Midwestern nice.

I agree. I don't know. He came to me as like stiff as a board. I'm like, dude, you're supposed to be good at this. You're not good at this. To me, he was too Midwesternized because he didn't, there was too much like, yes, I agree with you. And I know people like to see that. Yeah. But you are supposed to make a contrast. Yeah. I don't know that he came across as,

this sounds silly, but as vice presidential. And when you're as a vice presidential candidate, you actually really have to come across as presidential because that's what's in the back of everybody's mind is like well if something happens To the president especially right now Would this person make a good president? I thought waltz had a good night. I thought JD had a very good night, but Interestingly JD on that last exchange about democracy knowing that it's a vulnerability for him Pivoted to censorship and pivoted and he didn't say Dems are the real threat to democracy. He said the issue or the argument that this is only a Republican problem is wrong because Dems want

to violate all of these norms with censorship. He didn't say, you know, basically the Dems are the ones that are trying to lock up political opponents, banana republic. He didn't do that. That's a good point. He didn't mention lawfare once either. No. Yeah, that's true. He didn't mention any of the court cases against Donald Trump unless I missed that. It really was him trying to say there are, well, he wasn't trying to say this, but he basically, rather than saying the problem is only with the Dems, he kind of conceded

these problems on both sides. He didn't say it. He didn't say it, but he said- He said something to that effect. Look, I think he did the best he can. What the fuck are you supposed to do? Like, I'm serious. Like when you work for the guy, what are you supposed to do? Also, that's the reason he got the job. Right. Is because he said, because he said, I would not have done what Mike Pence did. Like that's the whole reason he's there. And so he's there to be the, the bulwark against the deep state. He can't start acknowledging that the deep state was right. Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So I mean, yeah,

it's, it's devastating, but there's also, he is, he put himself in that corner. Like that was part of, that was the agreement he made when he decided to be on this, tried to be on this ticket, was that he would give that answer right there and never admit that Trump actually lost. I mean, you have to, look, again, you have to do it. That's true. Their calculus, I don't necessarily agree with it, is that you have to do this. No, for them, it's like, listen, we have to go along with this so that we can get all this other nice stuff into the Republican Party. Again, I don't necessarily agree with that.

That's the Vance. The Vance mindset. Rationalization. The mindset of any of the people. The mindset is the ends justify the means. Yes. Yes. We have a two-party system.

We have this guy named Donald Trump who's at the top of the ticket. He says a lot of crazy shit that his supporters basically think he's a god and believe whatever he has to say. We have a certain number of policy positions that we wanna move the Republican Party on. He seems amenable generally to that because he doesn't care about any of that. So what do we say? We have to go up there and we say, yeah, I'm focused on the future. Do I love it? No. But listen, if you look at a policy level and this, this, and this about where things are, compare this vice presidential debate to the vice presidential debate of what, 12 years ago, almost exactly to the date on Paul Ryan, where we're talking about repealing Obamacare.

We're basically talking about free trade. We had a vice presidential Republican candidate endorsing paid family leave, free IVF. But that's the other part of it is like, none of that is Donald Trump's policy. But that's the point. He doesn't have policy. So maybe. But that's the thing is like, you know, that's part of what's so weird is J.D. Vance is up there like freelancing what he might do if he was president. But you're not going to be president.

Yeah, but you'll be a voice in the room. There's no indication. Maybe. I don't know. I mean, he'll be an influence at the very least. How has he been an influence on, you know, he floated $5,000 child tax credit and Trump was basically like, no. And he floated, hey, maybe you should veto a national abortion ban. And Trump was like, no. When Donald Trump, if Donald Trump wins the presidency and the tax bill comes up for negotiation and J.D.'s in the vice presidential chair and perhaps gets to negotiate some of that or be in Trump's year,

then I think we have a better chance of getting that done than not. Listen, again, I don't even necessarily agree with this whole we have to say the election stuff was stolen because it pisses off a lot of people and it has been death knell to actual voters. Go ahead. Why don't you just answer, legally speaking, Biden is president and won the election through the legal process. Then you can still leave it open. Yeah, because they don't believe. Look, and this is again, the problem for them. So like, look, it's an end justify the means position. Again,

I don't necessarily agree with it. I think he gave a fantastic performance. I think in general, Tim Walz basically didn't, Tim Walz, in my opinion, did not come across with the rock star, you know, energy or whatever that a lot of people in the media built him up as. Well, I mean, we knew coming in that he had said he was a poor debater, and I think they were honest about that. I do think, yeah, I do think, you know, they weren't just expectation setting. He really is uncomfortable in that role. I will say, I thought as he went, like, I thought he was very good on abortion. I disagree with you guys that J.D. Vance gave a good answer on abortion, by the way. Oh, interesting. We can get to that.

But I thought he gave a very good answer on abortion. I thought he was good on climate change. I thought he was, you know, good as, oh, on housing he was very comfortable. On health care he was very comfortable. So it was kind of as things got into his wheelhouse and the night wore on that he got a lot more comfortable and did fine in the light. I thought the later stages were like a draw until he got to the democracy part, which is a disaster for Vance. On abortion, what J.D. did is he said, he said basically like people are right to not trust my party on this issue. And I mean, maybe it feels honest, but I'm not sure that that's a great way to handle it.

Why not? Imagine if you were watching Kamala Harris say, you guys are right to not trust us on immigration. Yeah, but we, I mean- But how would you feel about that? Yeah, but she's full of shit on immigration whenever she's like- Well, the polling isn't as well- He's full of shit on abortion, and they're always full of shit on abortion. He said.

To admit like, yeah, basically my party kind of sucks on this issue. And also, the other thing that just bothers me is this is one of the areas, and there were a few areas like this with J.D., where he is very slippery on that. He claimed he never won a national abortion ban. That's not true. We all know that he has very strident views, that he is just tossed to the side again in the name of pandering and trying to appeal to what he thinks Donald Trump wants him to say at this point. So in any case, it didn't land with me as such a great answer to acknowledge that basically like, yeah, my party sucks on this issue. So what are you going to do?

But if you are a swing voter, again, this comes back to the swing thing. If you're swingy and you are pissed about immigration, but you're a woman and you care a lot about abortion, hearing somebody be honest with you about that, maybe that enhances the trust. Look, part of the problem, too, is J.D. is not at the top of the ticket. I think he's a far more effective messenger for a lot of the things that Trump allegedly believes in than Donald Trump is. And if anything, you should see that from tonight about what this actually looks like whenever it's articulated properly. Now, the issue on abortion, though, is if you're trying to win some of these swinger voters, I think that's the best that you can possibly get. And in a sense, that's the immigration example you gave is the perfect one. Kamala literally did change her answer on abortion

or on immigration. And all of us know it, including people who are even voting on immigration. And so when you point out that contrast, she just looks like she's full of shit, as opposed to somebody saying, listen, I understand, like, we need to earn some of your trust back. That actually feels authentic and honest. So you would, if Kamala was like, yeah, we fucked up on abortion and we need to reenter trust, I don't think you would take it the same way. You and I follow this day to day. We are not the mean, normal voter, right? These people are barely even paying attention. We're lucky if they watch. They're definitely not watching this debate. I was gonna say, let's rule E7 to this point because that clip gets to this.

As a Republican who proudly wants to protect innocent life in this country, who proudly wants to protect the vulnerable, is that my party, we've got to do so much better of a job at earning the American people's trust back on this issue where they frankly just don't trust us. And I think that's one of the things that Donald Trump and I are endeavoring to do. I want us as a Republican party to be pro-family in the fullest sense of the word. I want us to support fertility treatments. I want us to make it easier for moms to afford to have babies. I want it to make it easier for young families to afford a home so they can afford a place to raise that family. And I think there's so much that we can do on the public policy front just to give women more

options. In the state of Ohio, we had a referendum in 2023, and the people of Ohio voted overwhelmingly, by the way, against my position. And I think that what I learned from that, Nora, is that we've got to do a better job at winning back people's trust. So many young women would love to have families. So many young women also see an unplanned pregnancy as something that's going to destroy their livelihood, destroy their education, destroy their relationships. And we have got to earn people's trust back. And that's why Donald Trump and I are committed to pursuing pro-family policies, making child care more accessible, making fertility treatments more accessible, because we've got to do a better job at that. And that's what real leadership is. What I miss in the middle there, though, is what's his policy? Like, what's the—

Because he was asked by the moderator whether he supports a national abortion ban. And he said, no, I don't supports a national abortion ban and he said no i don't support a national abortion ban but what is the if that's the republican abortion like messaging yeah what is it conveying besides the fact that what it's conveying is that yes we're going to restrict abortion like like grass tax we're going to restrict abortion at whatever six weeks but we're going to massively increase social safety but that's not true. Okay, I mean, that's what it's conveying. I didn't say it was necessarily gonna happen. Because that's the thing, is I listen to that, and I'm like, okay, well, when Roe was overturned.

But they're not gonna ban him, he said. But didn't he say no? Yeah, he said no. And I think it's sort of like the democracy question. It's kind of the best he can do within the parameters of the party and the parameters of his own belief. Because I agree, I don't think it's-

I think this is the best he can do under Donald Trump. I think he's under 100% support. I mean, I think we still don't know what the national abortion ban policy is because- Well, Trump said he's not gonna sign a national abortion ban. He literally truthed it during the debate here. No, Trump got asked about it and said he hadn't talked to J.D. about it.

And then J.D. said- But I mean, this is the thing, is like, okay, after Roe versus Wade was overturned, there was this whole conversation on the right about like, okay, now we really gotta do the pro, like we gotta really live up to the pro-family thing. Bullshit, like bullshit. He talks about IVF, he didn't even show up

for the IVF vote that they had. Okay, he was in the campaign trail I wasn't gonna pass the red states. Yeah, I mean it's true And that's okay child tax credit maybe if JD Vance was gonna be president maybe that'd be a priority Maybe maybe not but is his running mate talking about that? No. Is his running mate talking about affordable child care? No. Is his running mate talking about doing any of this? Did he do any of it when he was president of the United States? No. So, you know, I get what he's trying to do there, but it's just not backed by a reality within the Republican Party. Child tax credit, when it came up for a vote. How many Republicans voted for it?

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or wherever you go to find your podcasts. What's interesting about that is a bunch of red states. As you were saying, you have the anti-abortion pro-lifers talking about how it's now, now is the time to put your money where your mouth is and to be pro-family. And what they ended up doing is a lot of these red states passed these, a suite of bills on the state level that were doing things like paying for diapers. Ron DeSantis did this. And it was not like the points that you just raised, Crystal. It wasn't about IVF. It wasn't about. You had to like get a drug test before you get your diapers.

Work requirements. Yes, work requirements for diapers. But that's and like trying to make one thing you hear about a lot is making birth free. And it was sort of like natalist wonky policies. But it wasn't things like IVF. Look, I mean, we have to be honest about where we are. Most of the Republican Party doesn't support that. J.D. does support that. Now, does Trump support it? No idea, right? I don't think he supports or does anything. I think he'll go to

whatever position you're in. Now, in terms of what you just said, I think it's a pretty effective counter to why you should probably vote for Kamala if that's your number one thing. But he's trying, I think, to speak to more swing state voters. And to the extent that he's speaking for himself, I can genuinely tell you that that's what he believes. Now, does that mean that it's going to happen under Donald Trump administration? No, don't take that to the bank, considering what happened the first time around. And so his strongest moments, I thought, were where he was genuinely explaining both his own belief and connecting it to his different vision from where traditional Republicans stand, and then trying to fuse that onto Trumpism. If anything, you could see that as the project that he undertook whenever he became a United

States Senator, and now as the vice president under Donald Trump. The correct counter to that is will any of that happen? At best, probably 25%, if we're all being honest. Is that better than 25% or whatever of Mike Pence-ism or 100% of Kamala Harris being in the White House? That's for other people to decide. But that's why I thought it was a very strong performance. In other words, what is Doug Burgum gonna do up there? What is Tim Scott gonna do up there? What are any of these other people? They're just mouthpiece, they're nobodies. They would have given you complete standard answers on all of this stuff.

This is different, and different is interesting. Different actually gets people talking. So for that, I thought, in terms of the performance he could give, especially considering how he's been coming off more aggressive and angry in a lot of his interviews, this was, in the beginning of the debate, I said, I hope he comes across more compassionate, like the guy who ran for Senate in 2022, or more like the hillbilly elegy guy who was on CNN and MSNBC. I thought he did a very good job of that. I mean, you saw far more of that than you did any of the angry response or in an embarrassing response like, you know, Donald Trump win the election. It's a problem. And speaking of embarrassing responses, maybe we should run that one moment that Waltz had when he was pressed on.

Yeah, so we've got E5 when he had— If we have the stomach to watch it again. Yeah, this is rough. This is hard to watch. Go ahead and let's take a look. Governor, just to follow up on that. The question was, can you explain the discrepancy? All I said on this was, is I got there that summer and misspoke on this.

So I will just. That's what I've said. So I was in. Hong Kong and China during the democracy protests went in. And from that, I learned a lot of what needed to be in governance. Thank you, Governor. So there's apparently he had claimed he was in Hong Kong when the Tiananmen Square. And he wasn't.

Yes. In June, he was there in August. OK. Right. But he has previously said. Which you would not know from his answer because he did not even claim't. Yes. It happened in June. He was there in August. Okay. Right. But he has previously said. Which you would not know from his answer because he did not even explain that. Yeah, exactly. He didn't even explain that.

First he goes on this long thing about like, you know, why I was in China and this, you know, cultural connection and I bring basketball teams. I'm a good guy. Yeah, I'm a good guy. And like, I just want people to connect and whatever. And she's like, okay, yeah, but why did you say that? It wasn't true. I'm a knucklehead. He true. I'm a knucklehead. He says, I'm a knucklehead.

And then he said something like, you know, I talk a lot and I get caught up in the rhetoric. And then it's just sort of like awkward pause. It was a missed moment. I still wonder why J.D. My favorite quote of the night. He said, quote, many times I will talk a lot and honestly say it. Hey, I relate. That's why we honestly say it. Hey, I relate. That's why we're all here.

Yeah, I relate. I do this for a living. I also get caught up in the rhetoric. I get it. It was surprisingly bad because it's obviously awkward to have to admit like,

yeah, I fucked up on that one. I wasn't there. I said I was there. Oops. I was trying to tell a cooler story than it was. He eventually got to, I misspoke. It honestly would be better if he had just said that. Like, I was there. Oops. I was trying to tell a cooler story than it was. He eventually got to, I misspoke.

It honestly would be better if he had just said that. Like, I wanted to, you know. He should have said, it happened in June. I was there in August. It was a cooler story. It was a cooler story to say that I was there while it happened. It was kind of a lie. And I'm busted. Sorry.

Yeah. See, that would have been the best you could do. And that would have been fine. People would be like, all right. You know, he's telling a tall tale. Big deal. Who cares? It's a tall tale.

Because he's tried so hard to weasel his way out of answering the question. It's like, why weren't you prepared for that? Well, actually, that kind of gets before we get to that. By the way, our audio team, they have to re-export that clip because it came out without audio. It'll be fixed in a few minutes. I'm sure being there in August is a really cool experience and you got a lot of the energy from the aftermath. And you could say that. But can you follow that's not the same as being there?

And also it's Hong Kong. During the debate, what I put out was I was like, it's clear to me it was a mistake that Walsh didn't do interviews because he was nervous. And he was not practiced in being in an adversarial position. And it's like, this is why. You know, J.D. was comfortable from moment one because he's done interviews with both of those women at CBS.

Literally both of them. Probably knows them personally. Both when he was a senator and as a vice president. With all the major networks. The only thing he wasn't prepped for was that election answer. It's because there's no answer. I still disagree on that because he, like from a really big picture perspective, obviously the interviews would have helped him be smoother in the debate.

But their risk aversion, I think when you have as much boosting from the media as the Harris campaign has had, and as Tim Walz has had, to your point, like he really has been hyped up by the media. Why would you even, like... Well, this just blew? That's not really. I don't think so. Like, how much do you think this matters when people are actually making how much these people matter at all? All right. So that's what I'm saying. But that's the OK, let's say to the extent that it matters. I mean, look, if you're a political junkie, I'm assuming that the polls are going to probably show that J.D. won. Media is probably going to cover that on top of whatever the clip is that looks bad for him.

So maybe it's a wash. So on Walsh, I guess to me, they built him up as the star, how good he was in media and all that. And from the very beginning, I was like, oh man, he looks so nervous up there. So sure, it took him a little while to get warmed up. But that initial impression stuck, especially whenever I felt like he was trying to deliver canned answers. He would give weird pauses. We were talking earlier when they came out and we noticed that he immediately came to the notepad and was scribbling a lot of pre-memorized stuff down so that he could read off of that.

I thought that really showed. And I mean, look, he had great answers on abortion. I thought that was his strongest moment, for sure. I also thought his closing pitch wasn't bad. I mean, look, that's going to be his best breakout. So actually, I think we do have that. And hopefully the audio is correct. So fingers crossed.

Why don't we go to that? E8, please, control room. Let's go ahead and play it. I think this is the conversation they want to hear. And I think there's a lot of agreement. This is one that we are miles apart on. This was a threat to our democracy in a way that we had not seen. And it manifested itself because of Donald Trump's inability to say he is still saying he didn't lose the election. I would just ask that. Did he lose the 2020 election? Tim, I'm focused on the future. Did Kamala Harris censor Americans from speaking their mind in the wake of the 2020 COVID situation? That is a damning non-answer. It's a damning non-answer for you to not talk about censorship. Trying to pivot to censorship on that just ain't going to work. Yeah. I mean, look, I've seen them try everything. I've seen them try Pennsylvania

voting law. I've seen them try Venezuelan dominions. I've seen it all. That's probably as good as you're going to get whenever you're up there. But it was bad. I mean, you know, how else can we say it was bad, especially for look, the swing. That was actually the one moment. And this is where he's so constrained by Trump, where every other time he's trying so hard with those swing voters on abortion, he's like, I hear you. I feel your pain. Climate change. On health care. On guns.

Yeah, on guns. Immigration. All of these. It's like, Christ have mercy. Everything's compassionate. But with this, it's the red line for Trump. And so, like I said, this is the strength and the weakness of the Trump fan stick. And I think this is where the biggest weakness is.

And it emanates from the very top, Donald J. Trump. And also, you know, for a lot of Republicans out there who are always talking about how great Trump is, this is also a vision of like, it doesn't have to be this way of this whole like concepts of a plan and let's litigate our rally size. All these other disastrous like moments that are purely functions of Trump personality. But that's also where people have to be honest in that a lot of voters, the actual Republican voters, like this is where we also be, they prefer the Trump. They love that. They prefer that. They prefer the circus. So whatever the hell, something like, you know, interesting, nuanced and well-spoken. And the only reason that J.D. didn't just give the sort of canned, scripted pro-life movement for decades answer on abortion is because Donald Trump is the candidate

and he can't do it. So it's a double-edged sword. Yeah. I mean, there was a lot of throwing the pro-life movement under the bus. Like, by admitting our party is interested on abortion. And he wasn't just talking about, like, oh, because we need a child tax credit. He was talking about abortion. And it's wild to see because he is one of those people who holds those very, you know, like adamant pro-life positions. Absolutely. And so it really, I mean, it really is quite striking to see him basically like throw that all under the bus

and say, you know, and talk about the results of the referendum in Ohio and all of that. Yeah. I just, on the censorship thing, because this drives me crazy, like the idea, both of the parties are pro-censorship. The idea that Donald Trump is your anti-censorship candidate is crazy. He wants to deport, you know, pro-Palestinian protesters. He wants to- Well, they don't have rights, Crystal. They are foreigners. He wants to ban flag burning. Republicans have passed all these laws in states that,

okay, they're in support of anti-BDS laws, for example. There you go. That's fair. They want to pass, they've passed all these laws They've passed all these laws that ban protests in certain ways or allow people to drive their cars into protesters, etc., etc. I could go on, but just it really irritates me when people make that a point. And it especially irritated me in that context when he's just blatantly trying to shift the conversation from something he's been told. Look, he's doing what he's got to do.

It's like when Tim Walz gets asked about immigration. Yeah, Tim, I'm sure you really strongly feel about a strong border bill. Like, get out of here. But this is the game. They might, I don't know. Unfortunately, I think they might. I don't think Tim Walz does, for sure.

I mean, speaking of Israel, so they started off with a very sober tone and question about what had happened between Israel and Iran just today. And Vance had a pretty good moment early on. He seemed more comfortable than Tim Walz. And he talked about, you know, Walz calling Trump, quote, an agent of chaos. I'm going to control him. E1 to just see how the debate started and how Vance seemed to be on pretty comfortable ground when he was talking about what was transpiring throughout the world.

Let's roll E1 so you can get a flavor of how it all started. Now, to answer this particular question, we have to remember that as much as Governor Walz just accused Donald Trump of being an agent of chaos, Donald Trump actually delivered stability in the world, and he did it by establishing effective deterrence. People were afraid of stepping out of line. Iran, which launched this attack, has received over $100 billion in unfrozen assets thanks to the Kamala Harris administration. What do they use that money for? They use it to buy weapons that they're now launching against our allies, and God forbid, potentially, launching against the United States as well.

Donald Trump recognized that for people to fear the United States, you needed peace through strength. They needed to recognize that if they got out of line, the United States global leadership would put stability and peace back in the world. Now, you asked about a preemptive strike, Margaret, and I want to answer the question.

Look, it is up to Israel what they think they need to do to keep their country safe. And we should support our allies wherever they are when they're fighting the bad guys. I think that's the right approach to take with the Israel question. So, I mean, that was, we kind of predicted it from the top. We're like, how is they going to answer the Israel question? I was like, JD is just going to say it didn't happen while Trump was in office. And it is a compelling point. That's what a lot of people have to say. You know, the other thing I was thinking about, you know, because we were talking about like,

oh, parsing all of these things. And I was like, well, normal people, you know, they're not even barely following any of this to the extent that any of them watch it. And I will be very curious actually for the ratings because my, I don't know, what do you guys think? Do you think it'll be high? I kind of think it will be only higher than normal

for VP debates, only because this is the very last political debate. But I can also see it being a dud. In general, they only watched for 10, 15 minutes statistically. In that time, that's where J.D. both was comfortable. Walz was very nervous. Very nervous, yeah. And because the Israel question and the Iran war question, I mean, we began our whole stream with almost an hour on the topic. It is the most consequential thing happening right now. And if Biden and Kamala,

by proxy, as number two on the ticket, do allow a major war to break out in the Middle East with U.S. involvement, that is going to be even more compelling. And you'll probably hear that a lot as well on the campaign trail. Looks like our own ratings were down about half from the presidential debate. Oh, ours? Yeah, so there you go. All right. That was not very Trump-y. Yeah, definitely. No, they're the highest. Highest ratings ever.

Actually, it's the highest breaking points has ever been for a vice presidential debate. Well, don't say it's the highest breaking points it's ever been because we don't know

how high Ryan has been. Oh, that's true. That's true. That would be more counterpoint. Walls' answer on the Iran-Israel question, partly he was nervous coming into it, but also he seems to have utterly no interest in the issue.

That's so true. He kept mixing up Iran and Israel. It was just a mess. Kamala has her 10-7 lines completely memorized. Oh, yeah. He was just pawing at 1,400. The 1,400 was a giveaway because it's like. That's not even the right number.

That was the first week number before they were like, oh, actually 200 of those were like Hamas militants that we like incinerated when we launched the Hannibal directive on the people flowing back into Gaza. So it's actually 1,200. So he basically has no interest whatsoever in this, which undermines my own little pet theory. When I heard that he'd been to China like 25 times, I was like, oh, has this guy been groomed by the agency? Like for a very long time? I think no, because if he had been, by the agency for a very long time? Yeah, it is weird.

I think no, because if he had been, he would have a little bit more. Oh, I see. Oh, he'd be slick. He'd be able to articulate something on this issue. He just had nothing. Yeah. I think he was authentically completely ignorant.

Maybe he just really likes Chinese food. I thought he felt that way. Just like taking dogs. You know that there's Chinese food is over here. Huh? Oh, that's true. Of course, yeah. Didn't think about that one. It's like taking dogs. You know the Chinese food is over here. Huh? Oh, that's true. Of course. Yeah.

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In general, the strategy from J.D. and actually from Tim Walz on both of them was they weren't really talking about the other. If anything, there was, like you said, there was a lot of niceties between the two. Like, I agree with this governor. I agree with the senator. But Kamala, like the heated rhetoric was for Kamala from J.D. and for Trump from Tim Walz. Which is smart, actually. I actually think, I think from JD's perspective, it was smart. I think it was the right strategy because Tim Walz does come across as like just kind of a nice guy. And very normal, I feel like. And very, yeah.

And so if you're out there like viciously attacking him, I don't know that that would have. I see what you're saying. And so I think JD had a different goal, which was to make himself a little more like, you know, soften some of the edges, be a little more conciliatory, you know, reach out. And I think he accomplished that. Yeah. Right? I think he came across as much more approachable and much more likable than he's come across in, like, exchanges or when he's out making up lies about Haitian pets. And even on the rally stage, he's got a really hard attitude.

You know, Walsh didn't hit him on that. No, I know. I was kind of surprised. I was wrong about the culture becoming a focal point. He brought it up a little. A little bit. Because he talked about how state law enforcement was having to escort little kids into the classroom. And DeWine.

Yeah, so he did go in, but he didn't go in hard. He didn't do any like, why won't you apologize? Which I was expecting what he did on the election to do the same thing on Springfield. I was kind of shocked whenever he let him go. I think if you had a different candidate than Walls, I think it would have been the right strategy to be more aggressive towards J.D. Because I think it would have thrown him off.

He could have gotten under his skin a little bit. I just don't think that Walls really has that in him. I just don't think that's a role he could really pull off. I mean, he was struggling to pull off the role just trying to like be not nervous and articulate his views in a forceful position. And like I said, I think he picked up a lot of steam as the debate went on and he was fine toward like got strong towards the end of it. But yeah, I don't, I don't think he has that like attack dog thing. That was clear. I mean, constantly just saying, oh, I agree. It's actually funny. A lot of liberals are very mad at Tim Walz for that. Like, let me find this. Do you think it was Josh Shapiro?

They would have been just partisan one-liners at each other. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Thank God for just America's sake that that didn't happen because it would have been insufferable, the Obama-esque stuff. Here, David Frum tweeted this out. He said, Vance is going home tonight with Walsh's wallet. Vance didn't even have to snatch it. Walsh just handed it over, along with a bunch of unearned compliments to Vance's fine character. So, I mean, people are mad. And actually, David replied to it with an article he wrote about how Walsh should have tried to get JD off, basically get under his skin and try and make him thin-skinned and pivoting.

I think he's right. That would have been a better strategy. I just don't think that Walsh could pull basically get under his skin and try and make him thin-skinned and pivot into the end. I think he's right. That would have been a better strategy. I just don't think that Walls could pull off. Yeah, and your counter is like, he doesn't have that in him. He's just not that guy. And he apparently advertised this up front to Kamala in the vetting process. I now do not think that that was bullshit or expectation setting.

Yeah, I was wondering. He definitely advertised up front, like, this is really not my thing. And it's funny because part of, because he was so good in those few cable news interviews before he got picked, I was like, is it really not your thing? But it is different. A cable news interview is a different feel. Well, maybe for Democrats because they never get challenged on anything. But if you're a Republican, it's basically like training because you're just constantly hitting at like conventional wisdom and having to defend your position. No, that's true. It's true that it is a related skill, but it is not exactly the same thing. Yeah, that's true.

You know, like a debate. You were a debate, a debate pro. You were that guy. Not a debate bro. If you were wondering why you hate soccer. No big deal. No big deal. Lost to a kid in a wheelchair i might have heard the story definitely lost because he was in a wheelchair but it's cool but anyway it is it is a little bit different like being up on the stage and the

format and the length of it and all of that stuff yes that's true it is different yeah and so clearly like the comfort he has with the cable news hit does not translate over to, you know, a comfortable feel on a debate stage. Are these debate finals, are they on YouTube anywhere? I wish. This is pre-YouTube era. He actually would. If I still had a tape, if I had a tape of it, I would be the first to start. Your mom doesn't have the tape at home.

Well, that's a different story. This is all pre-iPhone. So speaking of the debate, the format, making people nervous, not making people nervous, the big story that everyone was talking about after the last debate was the moderators. It was a huge cope for Republicans. As much as I dislike the moderators there, I can 100% agree with that. Now, this time they were more like the CNN, Dana Bash, Jake Tapper approach in the presidential debate between Trump and Biden. At the same time, there was one, first of all, I think Crystal and I at least agreed, they were awkward. The Nora O'Donnell, Martha Brennan pairing was awkward.

Listen, we know great female chemistry. And that was not it. That's not how you do it. I think you guys are right. You need a glass of P&O. I think they hate each other. That has to be it. There's got to be something else. There was tension. There was tension. Yeah. They didn't do a good job.

Also, the fact-checking was so bizarre because why did they say we're not going to fact-check? If you're not, then don't. Then don't do it. They literally did fact-check. It was a pre-fact-check that they prefabbed. And then they cut his freaking microphone. Actually, do we have this? We do have this.

This is E4. This was one of the most uncomfortable moments after the China moment. Let's roll E4 here. Thank you, Governor. And just to clarify for our viewers, Springfield, Ohio, does have a large number of Haitian migrants who have legal status, temporary protected status. Well, Margaret, but— Thank you. Senator, we have so much to get to.

Margaret, I think it's important because— We're going to turn out of the economy. Thank you. Margaret, the rules were that you guys weren't going to fact check. And since you're fact checking me, I think it's important to say what's actually going on. So there's an application called the CBP One app, where you can go on as an illegal migrant, apply for asylum, and be granted legal status at the wave of a Kamala Harris open border wand. That is not a person coming in, applying for a green card and waiting for 10 years. That is the facilitation of illegal immigration, Margaret, by our own leadership. Thank you, Senator, for describing the legal

process. We have so much to get to, Senator. Those laws have been on the books since 1990. Thank you, gentlemen. The CBP one app has not been on the books since 1990. It's something that Kamala Harris created, Margaret. Gentlemen, the audience can't hear you because your mics are cut. We have so much we want to get to. Thank you for explaining the legal process. Okay, so, and again, they didn't show you this, but the reason he started talking was because they had fact-checking. What did they say on climate change, Ryan? What, they said something. Oh, that is true. Yeah, that scientists say it's man-made. Scientists agree it's man-made.

But I mean, I don't even think he even said anything. But nobody disagreed with that. He said for the sake of argument. Right. Which a little weaselly, but fine. Even then, it was like, why did you say that? It was like, that's so odd. Because they expected that he would deny it

and they had it pre-written. I think that's why. Oh, I like that. CBS Insider, if that's true, leak it and tell us the truth. I don't know that this is like, you know, the biggest bombshell, but I do think when you're up there as a candidate complaining, like you promised you wouldn't call out my, like you wouldn't fact check. I agree. Both from a process standpoint and also you're kind of giving up the game of like, you know, but I planned to, I had these lies planned and now you're calling me out on them. It's not yet.

I don't think that's true. I thought it was a good moment for him. Yeah, you get a good clip for him because he gets to attack the product. I mean, I don't know how a normal person watching that wouldn't think like, what the hell is going on here with these two? You know what I mean? Well, they handled it so poorly, Nora O'Donnell and Mark Brennan, just handled that very poorly. Yeah, I mean, the thing is like,

yeah, after, then they're getting into a back and forth that may have actually been interesting. Yeah, that actually could have been good. And then they cut it down for no reason. And then it's just really passive aggressive. Thank you for explaining the legal process. That's right. That's right.

Yeah, it was like that was that was bad. Do we have any other clips that we want to go over? I mean, we had a couple others there, but I think that's that's those were the the main one. I think the biggest moments were probably people talk will talk about that Mike's cut one a little bit, but honestly, I think the China. It's going to be China and election. China and election. Those are the two big moments.

The biggest news of the day is whatever Israel is going to do overnight. Yeah, that's right. Blowing up the region, and they opened the debate with it, and the question was just so monstrous. It was just a portrait of a dying idiotic empire. Will you? Yeah, there's this big war going on. Will you preemptively attack Iran?

Right. Like what? It's like, why don't we ask about conditioning aid? Why don't we ask about, should America? Here's a better question. Should American troops die for Israel? How about that one? You can even ask it less loaded. Is there any scenario in the current situation where American soldiers would have their lives on the line in an Israel-Iran war?

Okay. I just gave you this pretty decent one. Why are there troops in Syria? Actually, really, why are there? I mean, the truth of the matter is, even if those good questions were asked of these two individuals, there's nothing they would say that would really be policy. Totally, totally. And, I mean, J.D. Vance could say whatever he's going to say. Donald Trump could say the exact opposite tomorrow, and no one would think twice. Obviously, Tim Walz, not comfortable in foreign policy, doesn't know what Kamala would do, doesn't know what should, but whatever. It, to me, points out more what an incredible failing it is that we don't have

another presidential debate, that there's such a lack of adversarial questioning of these two kids that we really, we don't know the answer for either Trump or Kamala on some basic foreign policy issues. And so to me, it points more to that because you might get something more noteworthy if you had the two principals back on stage. That's true. That's very true. But with these two, I don't know that you're really going to get much more out of them than you did on that question. It'll rightfully be swallowed by a news cycle focused on what happens overnight in the Middle East, and then you have literally hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of people unaccounted for in Appalachia,

160 people dead. I mean, this debate won't really make a dent. Yeah, I also noted, we mentioned in the open, they mentioned the port strike. Yeah, they didn't ask a question about it. It was like, it exists. There were moments, this is why I hate them so much, the media, because there were

actually moments where they, I think Tim brought up, Tim Walsh brought up something about unions, and I was like, why don't you ask JD about unions? And Trump, you know, questioned the port strike, and they just moved past it. Just some bullshit. They just don't think like that. Yeah, exactly. They don't think about this.

And meanwhile, actual people are at home. They're like, wait, unions? Wait, my uncle or whatever is in a union. Oh, what about the strike? I want to hear about that. That's the issue. So look, I mean, top line, you know, do we think that this is going to make a big difference for me? Like, unfortunately, no, because I think it was good for J.D., but in terms of the whole race,

Trump is Trump. He sucks all the oxygen out of the room, and whatever oxygen is left is going to get sucked up rightfully by Bibi and Iran. So our fate, quite literally, is currently in the hands of the IDF and whatever they decide to do

because our bipartisan establishment will go down that road, and then election-wise, it's Trump and it's Kamala. It's the principals. Unfortunately, these debates don't matter. I do think personally for J.D., let's say that Trump loses. I think J.D. made a very credible case for himself to be the nominee in 2028. He's the standard bearer.

I think now. You don't think McConnell and the chamber are going to effectively knife him? I think prior to this debate, they would have not only wanted to knife him, they would very effectively been able to knife him. I think given this debate, there's a lot of my Twitter feed is just full of Republicans on how much they love him. Ross doubt that the most successful Republican debate performance of the century. I talk the 2000s. I know that might have to be fair because she didn't crush Joe Biden. Yeah, because exactly.

People love it when you can articulate. So in that sense, for him personally, I think this was an incredible night. For the 2024 election, it's probably just not going to make that big of a difference. Yes, totally. And like I said, especially with the Israel-Iran going to – I mean, that's going to be the headline. Yeah. By tomorrow – within a week, that'll be the most important thing going on. I think in particular this one might be.

I mean – The sports trade keeps going. Almost nothing. I mean, since Kamala – swapping Joe out, that made a big difference. Yeah. That was consequential. Right. And no questions about that, by the way.

True. Yeah. Interesting. That is true, actually. Since she's sort of, you know, ascended to, like, the current state of the race, almost nothing does make a difference. I saw somebody making the point that that would have been his best democracy rebuttal. I'd be like, what are you talking about? You didn't have a Democratic primary.

True. Anointed to. Yeah, that's true. That's true, except I don't think people care. That is good. They don't care. But at least you could. But maybe. That, that's true. Yeah, that's true. Except I don't think people care. That is good. They don't care. But at least you can. But maybe maybe walls would take the bait. Then you're not talking about Trump anymore. That's true. That's true. But, you know, I think the

race is pretty static. Like, you know, you had a DNC that didn't move the needle. You had another assassination attempt that didn't move the needle. You had a debate that was overwhelming in terms of the consensus that Kamala defeated Trump and he looked terrible, made an ass of himself, whatever, Haitian pets, et cetera. That didn't really move it. She maybe got maybe a temporary point bump and then it's just back to the stasis. So in that context, it's hard for me to imagine that this would be more significant than any of those. Sorry, Crystal, we just got a news in from CBS. What do we got? In the instant poll.

Who won the debate? 42% J.D. Vance, 41% Tim Walz, 17% Ty. I love America. Ty, I love America. America's like, whatever. Yeah. I was a Republican going in. I like my Republican.

It's the Democrat going in. I like my Democrat. Most of those Democrats are lying. Huh? Most of those Democrats are lying. Yeah, but they're going to, but they think it anyways. And by the way going in there like my Democrat. Most of those Democrats are lying. Huh? Most of those Democrats are lying. Yeah, but they're going to, but they think it anyways. It doesn't matter who they vote for. It doesn't matter who they vote for.

They're voting for walls. Yeah. So, in any case, do I think it's going to move the needle? No, I do not. Yeah. One thing before we wrap. Happy birthday to my mom. Oh. Your mom shares a birthday with Jimmy Carter. No way. Wow. Oh my gosh. She's actually a shares a birthday with Jimmy Carter. No way. Oh my gosh.

She's actually a little older. She's 101. Jimmy Carter. Sorry, Mom. I wish we had more time to talk about Jimmy Carter. I'm sure Ryan would go at it. Really good, right? Great stuff.

Yeah. Happy birthday. The father of neoliberalism, but also a great Middle East anyway. All right. It's too late for Ryan. He's had two IPAs. Save that one, Ryan. Thank you, guys. On his birthday, I don't need to call him the father. That's right. It's too late for Ryan. He's had two IPAs. Save that one, Ryan. Thank you guys. On his birthday, I don't need to call him.

That's right. Don't call him anything. Thank you guys so much for watching. We appreciate you. We have that discount going on right now. Can we put that up on the screen, please? To last a time that people can take advantage of it for tonight. BP 2024.

Breaking points. The election discount. Breakingpoints.com. $15 off on an annual membership. Go ahead and sign up. Otherwise, we will have a great show for you. What is it, on Thursday? And we'll see you then.

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