Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - A Fix For Tanking? Expansion Teams Coming Soon? NBA To Europe?

Episode Date: March 28, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the major takeaways from the NBA’s board of governors meeting in New York with commissioner Adam Silver. The guys cover the concept of league expansion inching ever closer, a new league in Europe, some unique clarification on the sale of the Celtics, how Minnesota’s ownership changes could greatly impact the team, if there is a fix to tanking in the NBA and a wild storytime from Windy. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which you're doing on Thursday evening, joining us from New York City, where he spent the day at the MBA's Board of Governors,

aka the owner's meetings, Tim Bontemps. Hello, everybody. Joining us from Los Angeles, California, where he spent the day in the TV studio, because that's the kind of guy he is. Promoting his new book, The Wonder Boy, is the author, Tim slash Band McMahon. Howdy, Partners, Wendy, I am proud to say that you and I are, Friends. Best friends. No, no, no. Good friends. Friends on the day. Friends. Friends. And I will always claim you as my friend on the record for everybody here, something that by the way, just for the record,

you have never ever done with LeBron James. Not one single time. Have I ever heard you say that you were friends, much less best friends with LeBron James. I did. You know, I don't know if LeBron knows this podcaster named JJ Reddick. I think he's coaching the Los Angeles League because I bet you LeBron sees him all the time actually now what I think about it. Well, there's this time you went on JJ Reddick's podcast last year and I was tuning in. I was like, wow, this is really interesting. And I heard you on that podcast say, I don't think LeBron James likes me. And you weren't complaining. You were just simply stating fact because sometimes when you cover people and you don't just kiss their butt regardless of circumstances, and you cover them honestly, fair, and accurately,

but it might not always be flattering. Sometimes people get mad at you. And that's just part of life as a reporter. Now, that doesn't mean you can't do things like write a New York Times bestseller or two on that particular subject, as I hope to do with Luca Dodgish, who I've never claimed to be best friends with, who certainly wouldn't claim to be my friend. But that's just kind of life as a journalist. You can't always be loved, but you've got to be up.

honest. You got to be fair. You got to be accurate. LeBron James is loved by many. He was not honest. It was not fair. He was not accurate. And that's all I got to say about that. Thank you, Mr. McMahon. I hope your book does very well. We look forward to celebrating its continued success. Bontems, there was a lot of news that came out of the Board of Governors meeting today. You know, I don't really like talking about... Awkward transition. Go on. Jeez. What I'm going to say. Well said. I appreciate it. Just doubled over a few things per usual. Sorry. No, I didn't. Highroomies is spoke. Go on.

You know, sometimes these Board of Governors' Bees can be pretty dry. Today, there was quite a bit of things for Adam Silver to cover. You were there for all of it. Where should we start? Well, it was interesting that there were two, essentially two press conferences in one. It was a first. They spent half an hour literally just discussing this European League. I think for our listeners, which I think European League is worth discussing at some point.

Did you fall asleep during that half hour? No, I did not. I just want to say, just so, because people are going to see the headlines. And I apologize if this is overly basic, but that's sometimes my role. Sorry. When they say NBA is looking to create expansion teams in Europe, not NBA expansion teams. Right. It wouldn't be the Celtics versus London.

Right. We're about to talk to. They're trying to live golf the EuroLeague. Well, yeah, sort of. I mean, yeah. There were a lot of interesting subplots of this European, of this press conference about this European League. It's a lot of inside basketball or inside baseball, bringing how you want to phrase it stuff. Like, for example, there's a longstanding beef between FIBA, the like FIFA of basketball

and the EuroLeague and people who follow basketball know this. But the Fiba, the head of FBA sitting up there with Adam Silver and wouldn't call the Euroleague by its name. He just kept calling it that league. You know, like there's a lot of stuff like that. That's like when Bill Parcells used to talk about T.O. when you call them the player. Yes. There was a lot of, there's a lot of that going on. And for example, this all goes back to the Euro League, which Real Madrid is in, all the, all the teams people have heard up in Europe. They're all in the EuroLeague. And Fiba used to run the EuroLeague. It doesn't anymore. It's been a longstanding problem in European basketball. Now, the NBA's partnering with FIBA. They're essentially trying to replace the EuroLeague.

Adam Silver today goes, hey, we're just trying to be open and upfront about this idea of creating a leave because we think it's the healthiest way to do all of this. That's, I would call it a white lie. What the NBA is doing is walking in the front door and saying, hey, fellas, listen, we are coming over here. We are going to do a league. What we would love is for Real Madrid and Barcelona and Bayern Munich to all be part of this league.

If you guys don't want to be part of this league, that's fine. We're just going to create teams then over there. And we'll go ahead to head with you instead. That's a white lie like when the ball. Braun said when he tries to claim he's best friends with him. Okay. We don't need to do this the whole problem. So we will see, we will see where all that goes.

It's a very interesting. This will be covered in our Spanish language version, the RO Collectivo. Ooh. Interesting. That was an interesting half an hour for a variety of reasons. It'll have some potential long-term impacts on the NBA and basketball as a whole. I thought the most interesting thing of the day, I will, I asked them about it in particular, was back in September at the last Board of Governors meeting,

Adam Silver said expansion will be addressed at some point this season. Over the past few years, there's been talk about, we need to get the TV deal done, we need to get the CBA done. Check. Over the past several months, I think we would all agree, I would say numerous sources around the league have repeatedly said the league has to get the sale of the Celtics done.

Check. The four expansion will start. Kind of check. Kind of check. Those are all big checks. though. The TV deal is a massive check. The Celtics deal with the historically large check. And that the 6.1 billion dollars

that the Celtics went for, as we talked about last week, obviously an interesting factor in that. So I think the most important thing that Adam said was once the Celtics sale has been analyzed and processed and finished off, probably what I assume would be by the July Board of Governors' meetings, the NBA is going to, quote, turn to expansion in a more serious way at that point. And I think this is the clearest indication yet.

That's lawyeres, but I get it. It's lawyerses, but it's the clearest indication yet that we have gotten through the preliminary stages of discussing expansion and starting whether it's this summer or this fall, we're going to ramp this thing up in some level and get fully into the beginning of the expansion process. Okay. But what's the, what's the mystery about the expansion process?

Who's going to, who's going to be the controlling parties of the various, you know, well, there's a couple of things. It ain't, it ain't where. It's well, it's, there's a couple things. Hold on. Go ahead, Brian. Probably going to be Seattle and Las Vegas. And there's probably going to be expansion, not definitely Las Vegas in Seattle,

not definitely expansion. But Adam was at, there was people from Seattle there today and he was asked specifically about this bond. So I read this in your story. He had something to say to fans in Seattle who are coming up on 17 years since the Sonics left.

There was a guy from the Seattle Times there who asked about, you know, hey, look, for people in Seattle who have been waiting for a team to come back since 2008, what would you say to the, people. He said, I wish I could be, I wish I could be more conclusive today and say, quote, here it is, here's the timeline. There are, there are events that are clearly outside of them

control. Then it went through a bunch of legalese, blah, blah, blah. Quote, having said that, though, I would just say again to our many fans at Seattle and I hear from them often that the legacy and the legacy of the Sonics is still very strong. It's a fantastic basketball market, and we are very focused on it. The fact I think that I'm not being more sort of forthcoming publicly doesn't mean we're not studying it very intensively. We don't take those fans for granted. We're thankful that their interest has remained over all these years. I would just say the fact that we're not making any public announcements a specific timeline doesn't mean we don't care a lot about those fans

and we aren't focused on the potential for the NBA to return to Seattle. I think the Celtic sale, which he talked about a little bit, I asked them if there's any potential changes to the ownership structure of teams because private equity firm 6th Street is getting 20% of this team. There's been some questions about funding. All right. Too fast. I'm sorry, Bontems, too fast.

Are you guys going to start fighting again? We'll talk about the Celtics in a second. I want to focus more on what he, if you're from Seattle and you want the Sonics back, certainly what Silver said there, you can't take that to the bank. But Silver was basically saying, just hang with us. We haven't forgot about you hang with us. And I realize if you've been waiting, and I know that the, you know, I know some people in Seattle who are, you know, invested in this process more than most.

they've been so frustrated that, you know, they were expecting something last summer and then it was told wait. And then they were expecting something in September and they were told wait. And now they come to the spring and then they're told wait. And that's frustrating. But I do think Silver basically flashed the green light that, you know, it's, things are going. He did not put up a stop sign. And I. Yeah, you being able to translate that from lawyer talk into English. I appreciate that. I did not get a lot of read during my eight year college, Ginger and you need one to understand some of this stuff. I've asked to have a lot about expansion over the past few years, ever since he said they were beginning to look at it back in 2021 during one of the COVID pressers. And there's been a lot of times when he's put to pump the brakes on this process. What I would say about today is he very clearly didn't pump the brakes on the process. And the only thing he really said was, we just got to wait to make sure the Celtics are sold.

But you talk to anybody in the NBA, and I'm sure we've all talked to people about. it over the last week. Since that $6.1 billion number came out last week, there's just been a lot of big green lights around the league, green for cash money and green for, I don't know exactly what year we're talking about. Maybe it's 2028, maybe it's 2030, whatever. But sometime in I would say the relatively near future, I feel very confident this league is going to expand by a couple teams for gigantic amounts of money. And it's probably, as Brian said, going to to be Vegas and Seattle. There's some chances it's somewhere else. We'll see how this whole process plays out. But what's clear is the league is moving in the direction of officially,

openly diving into this thing publicly. They've been studying it behind the scenes for a long time. They were preparing for it for a long time. But I think today just confirmed what we thought last week, which is that the idea that expansion is coming, I think is a very real possibility for the league. Sonic green lights, baby. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. All right. Now, what else was on the list? And there was a whole bunch of stuff.

I guess we can talk about the Celtics sale. I asked them about the structure of the Celtic sale and whether, which, as I said before, there's a private equity firm called Sixth Street, named after Sixth Street in Austin, as we briefly talked about last week. Some of our listeners, you actually, McMahon, you were correct. It is named after the Sixth Street. this ground and please don't act surprised that I'm right about something. I know. Trying to give you credit. Trying to give our friend credit. Finger of the pulse on the,

on the financial media. Great, great job. I asked that. I've got financially right. That's right. There's been some questions about the structure of the deal that the Celtics are doing at the moment. And Silver said that there are no, there was no discussion at all of changing the rules governing sales. As of now, the current rules are a group, a private equity group like Sixth Street can own 20% of a team. They also can't own more than the person that's the controlling owner of the team, which has to own at least 15%. No, it's a little technical, but we'll see where that stuff lands. He also was asked about with Grusbeck's public statements that he's going to continue running the team through 2028. It was alluded to that Mark Cuban once said that, and then now is not. And his successor

then put this Luca Dachia trade through. And therefore, could there be problems like that in Boston, which was, I think, an interesting way to phrase the question. Patrick Dumont was kind enough to call Cuban and have a two-minute conversation after the trade was done. Patrick Dumont was in the building today. I did not see Mark Cuban. But Silver, not surprisingly, said, we're still working through the Celtic sale. And by the way, this is much different than the Maverick situation. The Gruzbek family and the buyer are still working through those arrangements on exactly how that would work in terms of CEO roles and governor roles during the transition. I think the situation was very different in Dallas. Did he elaborate on that? Yes. I can, I can read.

read further. I mean, he... Because essentially what Cuban is indicating happen was they didn't let him have a written agreement. Yeah, let me give the, let me give the, let me give the quote. I think the situation was very different in Dallas. There was a clear change in control of the franchise to Patrick Dumont and his family. Any decision as to what Mark's role would be in basketball operations was a function of an arrangement to be made between Mark, Cuban, and Patrick. The ultimate governance was absolutely clear as presented to our board that the last word on any basketball activities or any significant decision for the franchise would be made by Patrick. I think Mark has acknowledged that, as I've obviously seen some of his commentary on the trade.

Whatever anyone's feelings are on the trade, Mark, at least as I understand it, has made it clear that he did not participate in that. Whether or not his expectation is that he would have played more of a role in basketball operations, I don't think Mark has ever suggested that there was a contractual issue of play here. That was just his understanding of what the arrangement would be between him and Patrick DeMont. Yeah, and so I'm still, like, essentially what Cuban is saying is there was a just gentleman's agreement that they weren't allowed for some reason to have in the contract, I guess

because of the governor issue. There was a gentleman's agreement that he'd keep running basketball operations, but that's not like a consensus there. So I don't know if Cuban is continuing his occasionally elusive relationship with the truth, or if he was trying to speak something in existence, or if he just really did flat out get double crossed. Whatever it is. I mean, it's one of those three. Okay, I would say this was not definitive. The Wick Grusbach was giving the thumbs up. You're still running the team. That doesn't mean that he won't be.

Here's what's definitive. Until the team is sold, he's running the team. Once the team is sold, we'll see what happens. Okay. I have to spend a little moment here to talk about our colleague from the Boston Globe, Adam Himmelsbach, covers the Celtics. The Celtics are on a 12-day road trip to the West Coast. When they left, they were not sold.

than when they, midway through the trip, they got sold. And Bill Chisholm, who is going to be the new controlling owner, not going to be the majority owner, because he's apparently, according to several financial outlets, going to own less than 20%, but $6 billion is a lot of money. I'm not looking down at him. He's a very successful businessman.

He lives in the Bay Area. So the Celtics played in Sacramento. He has agreement to buy the team. And my guess is that this would not have been allowed by the Celtics if they didn't feel pretty strongly that he was going to be able to buy the team because he came and was able to meet the players and front office at the,

Brad Stevens was there, Joe Missoula. And our buddy, he gave an interview to our man Himmelsbach, and maybe other media outlets, but I read it with our, in the Boston Globe. So if I'm, do not mean to throw shade.

Pretty sure this was just an interview with Adam. Pretty sure. Adam, I think he's the only guy who was in Sacramento. Yeah, give the main credit. This is a, give him some time on him. McMahon, way do you hear this. This is a potentially amazing quote. And by the way, I am not making fun of him. Of who? Not making the new Celtics owner. Of Wild Bill? I'm just saying.

I know the quote. It's a dandy. Okay. He talked about meeting Celtics players before the game. Quote, it's incredible. It's just such a privilege. My legs were shaking talking to Jason and Jalen. Oh, boy. You think there's going to be a salary dumping trade of Jalen Brown in the near future? His legs were shaking. Hey, Jaylon. You know what, though? That reminds me of a great Cuban story.

Jalen. Jalen. Ask for an extension. Asked for an extension. Yeah, exactly. No doubt. That reminds me of a great Cuban story. Dirk told me this when I was working like the 20th year anniversary story of Cuban

buying the franchise. You know, Cuban was a Yahoo, like, court side season ticket holder. Obviously, he was marked. He actually sold his company to Yahoo, by the way. sure. Go ahead. Yeah, right. But he was a loud mouth, you know, I mean, he was Cuban. So he was like a very recognizable fan for one, because he was really loud for two, because the average didn't have a lot of fans back then. Anyways. And so Nash and Dirk are out on the town one night, you know. I didn't know that Nash and Dirk went out on the town.

Thank goodness Nika wouldn't running things. They might not last long there. Anyways. So they're out on the town one night. And, you know, I might not be getting the details exactly right. But essentially the waitress or whatever came over and said, hey, you know, this guy, this guy's buying, you know, he wanted to buy you guys around. And they look over and it's this freaking loud mouth fan. And, you know, it's Cuban. It's this loud mouth fan. And Durk and actually, you know, okay, you know, got to enjoy the drinks and skedaddled out of there because they didn't want to deal with the guy.

And then like a week later, the Mavericks are sold and it's this guy. And Dirk's just like, oh my gosh, you've got to be kidding. Cuban legs weren't shaking. He wanted to join the pregame shooter at us. That's what happened on that situation. Yeah. And obviously, Dirk and Cuban did end up having and continue to have a great relationship, but it was a pretty funny way to start it.

I will say that I remember, you know, covering the league when Cuban bought in. And just to illustrate how different the NBA was then versus now where there, There's like 45 support staff for the 14 players. And, you know, every player has like his own security guard, masseuse, and personal chef. Do you remember like how people freaked out because Cuban put Xboxes in every locker? Dude. How about the extra thick. Forget that.

Extra thick towels. That was like a thing. You know, oh my gosh. Hey, they were going to stay at five star hotels. Holy moly. They're staying at five star hotel. Like robes. Like the things that Cuban did early, hey, say what you want about the Cuban era, and I do say a lot about many things about it in the Wonderboy,

Luca Dachian, the Kurtz greatness, available to where you get books. But he did absolutely change a lot of things about the NBA, including like simple comforts in locker rooms and around teams, you know, that didn't exist before Cuban started trying to do these things. And like the post game spread, stuff like that. A lot of these things are Cuban. For sure. I remember, so when Dan Gilbert bought the Cavs, I was covering the Cavs, obviously, and he was about five or six years after Cuban, but he was sort of cut from the same cloth. And he quickly upgraded the Cavs locker room, and he installed TVs in each locker. And it's hilarious now because the TVs were probably like 10 inches by six inches.

They were not very, well, maybe they were big here. I don't want to offend anybody. But I remember that they were in the back of the locker. And the thing was that the coach had a switch in his office. he could switch it and all the TVs would come up so that, you know, if it was time to get the attention to the players, he could hit a button and all the TVs would slide, you know, there would be like a panel that would come up and cover all the TVs. They probably had those TVs in that locker room for like four years. I can count on one hand the number of times

I actually was in there when I saw a player watching any of those TVs. Obviously, I wasn't in there all the time, but like I was in there before and after every game and no one ever did it. I think it was the idea of putting a TV. It's kind of like some of these, Dancy hotels in like the 2000s would put a TV in the mirror of your bathroom. And like in theory, you could like watch in your bathroom. Was anybody actually watching TV? Anyway. Okay.

But when the Mavericks had those, I'd say, hey, I would ask guys. Like, hey, before you leave, you mind putting this game on? I would. I could see you doing that. So here's the thing you got to understand. McMahon is like fascinated with arrays of TVs. He has a setup at his house where he's got three TVs. But he dreams of one.

day where there's like seven. No, I've only got two, but I definitely dream of seven. Right. You, you want like, you know, six games going on at once. That's your excitement. No, I think that's the way to go about life. Absolutely. All right. Anyway, so we'll see what happens with the Celtics. There's been some reporting this week about the terms of the sale and how there might be some, some boundaries being pushed. And that's why I think Bontemp's asked Adam Silver if there was any discussions about bending any rules. I'm not going to make any assumptions, but I did talk to a financial guy who said that as far as the NBA changing its rules to allow the Celtics to be purchased in a way that's not currently allowed. He said that these guys are wagering that the

owners want the $6 billion price tag more than they're worried about individual rules. So we'll see if that becomes an issue or not. Again, whoever buys the team is face. based with losing nine figures next year if the Celtics don't reduce this payroll. So you can't zero out your bank balance to buy the team because you're going to have to potentially fund the losses for the next few years. So that's just one thing we'll put in there and let's not overreact to it now. Okay, Bon Tems, what else is on the agenda today? There was discussion of the Minnesota Timberwolf sale.

Ah, yes. And let you take over from there. So the Timberwolves, if you may recall, back six. They've only been being sold for 17 years. Right. So the Timberwolves were actually sold in 2022. Actually, they might have been, they might have agreed to be sold in 21, okay? We're supposed to be sold by 2024.

Newsflash, they weren't. They've been fighting Mark Lorry, Alex Rodriguez, and the current owner, Glenn Taylor, have been fighting in arbitration for a year now. Six weeks ago, Lori was declared the winner of that. He said, okay, I've got a bill. million dollars in escrow. I'm ready to finish the, uh, the transaction. And so here we are, six weeks later, there's a board of governor's meeting where the owner, the owners could approve a sale or reject a sale. And today, bond temps nothing. What the end? Not nothing. Not nothing.

Okay. Certainly not announcement of a not a, not a agreement on a sale. However, the thing that we have talked about is Glenn Taylor, after this arbitration ruling last month, which, when I asked Adam Silver about that at the All-Star game. He said he didn't see why the new owners wouldn't get the team after that ruling. Glenn Taylor has the right to appeal that arbitration ruling. And I don't think the window for that is closed yet. So Adam said that he's still debating whether to appeal. I think more importantly, he said he's discussing things openly still with Mark Lurie and Alex Rodriguez, which would lead me to believe that at some point here, there will be some further agreement between the parties to resolve this, and the new owners will

get the team. But there was, I don't think there's anything, nothing that happened today leads me to believe it will be anything other than that, but it has not done. Let me say two things about why this is more important than who the billionaire is who gets doing the team. The Timberwolves have three free agents, significant free agents this summer. Julius Randall, who can opt out of his contract, let's just for the sake of this discussion assume that he does. Nasreid, who almost guaranteed will opt out of his contract. It's for $15 million. He's going to be a candidate to win sixth man of the year again. And Alexander Nikiel Walker, who's been one of the most economic...

Michael Alexander Walker. Yeah, we did a little rearranging there. I always, always, always, always do this. Not and what? McMahon was saying earlier today on NBA... He so confidently said it too, McMahon. I know. Got it right here. Earlier today, McMahon, we were on NBA. today we were off off air and McMahon was like he was talking about Clayton Kershaw and he's like I'm feeling my age here. Clayton Kershaw's got gray in his beard and I covered him when he was in high school and so gee what does that make me? This is one of these things where I see people like these senior moments and I'm like how could you make that mistake? How could I make that mistake?

Alexander, uh, Mikiel Alexander Walker has been in the NBA like seven years. It's, it's embarrassing. Correct. All right. Might be the best non-center free agent available this summer. I was going to say and to the point of this conversation. has, oh wow, Gab's Corner. Caves Corner. For the sake of this conversation, Nikiel Alexander Walker has become a valuable role player, bounced around a little bit,

but found a home in Minnesota. And he is, he's not just 3 and D, but he's 3 and D with a little bit of playmaking ability and, you know, a very versatile defender. Right. He's going to get.

Really good player. He's getting paid this summer. So the Timberwolves in the, in the last, 21 years, I think I looked it up. In the last 21 years, the Timberwolves have paid a total of $1.5 million in luxury tax total. One year they paid $500,000, one year they played a million. This year, their luxury tax bill is $93 million. Okay. Now, do we believe that they're paying $93 million again next year? They certainly are not. Well, probably if they're, probably if

they're an eight seed, they think that's really worth it. Well, right now, they're in the playing, to your point. Yes. So this is why this matters. It's not just because we're really want to argue about the arbitration ruling. It's that are they going to be able to resign these guys? Are they going to keep Nazri? Are they going to keep Julius Randall?

And, you know, how much money can they spend and who's going to be done spending? And the one other thing I'll point out. Tim Connolly is one of the most well-respected Lee executives in the NBA. He has an opt-out in his contest. this year. If he doesn't like the situation, he can opt out and walk away for free. And so when you have an opt out in your contract and you're valued, you opt out of your contract and get more money. So, you know, and if you have an opt out? I do not. Oh, okay. I don't, I don't do options in my contracts. Oh, big baller. We're going to, we go to a certain time,

no more options. So we are now basically the last two weeks of the regular season, Bontemps, and we still don't know who on July 1st is going to get to decide how much money is going to get spent on these guys or not spent. Correct. Yeah. I mean, it's going to be very interesting to see when this gets determined and who's going to be at the controls. But it's going to Minnesota, this may come up in our Friday column, Brian and I. Minnesota does not have any free agent salary cap space this summer to spend, but they might be the single most interesting free agent team this summer between the combination of DeKeele Alexander Walker. Nas Reid and Julius Randu, who also has a player option.

All three of those guys, very interesting situations, and the wolves are going to be a team that's going to have a lot to say about how the summer played out across the league because of that. By the way, now that we talked about this, I'm now sort of thinking that really not that much was resolved today. Because, you know, basically they gave a promise ring to Fiba about, you know, they didn't actually say they're going to do the year. Well, listen, I'm just again, they're doing the league.

They didn't have this entire press conference. to then not do the league. I know. I'm just saying it wasn't formally announced. It didn't say what the league's going to be because they got it. They got to browbeat the Euroleague team still. But they're doing the league.

But I'm just saying like, you know, there was a soft announcement. We don't know what's happening with the timber wolves. We don't know what's happening with the expansion. I don't know that it's not now. We don't know what's happening with the Celtics. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay.

One other thing that was asked, I don't know who asked it, was about the blatant tanking that is taking hold in the lead. Our palatani gangouli from the New York Times asked about it. In the wake of my story with Kevin Peltin on Monday about tanking. Yes, I didn't. Good job.

I didn't, by the way, coming up, we're going to have Peltin on for large sample-sized theater, which is always one of our favorite pos of the years. Also, is that the Seattle guy you've said was whining and crying about when it's going to get expansion? But he still has, you know, when we have them on the pot, he still got the sonic stuff up there. Bontems, I didn't see this game last night, but you were telling me about it earlier, this the latest in the tanking war is Washington played in Philly. Well, the sixers, the top sixers, the number of people that have said something to me about how

great McBan's line is about the top sixers. I got to give you credit, McBan. It's very well done. So the top sixers are playing the, playing the Wizards, massive tank implications. Let's get all the names right. Especially because the losers. No, no, no. No, no.

Not on this night. This night. This is air points. Especially because the Raptors keep stubbornly winning. despite their attempt. So this is the thing. Last night was maybe the biggest night of the season from this situation. Because in Brooklyn, he had the Raptors playing the Nets.

Nets who I believe have now lost 15 of 18 or 17, 15 to 17 after getting blown out by the Raptors in Brooklyn. The Raptors were two games back in the lottery standings from both Brooklyn and Philly. Brooklyn's playing the Raptors. Philly's playing Washington. Philly and Brooklyn last night going into that night, If they can lose those games, they get a three-game lead, we tend to go on Toronto. Toronto ain't catching those guys.

They ain't being in three more losses. Toronto keeps winning. Again, and here's the thing, when we talk about this, because the Sixers are the top sixers and it's top six or nothing, you can't look at the odds about getting into the top four. You have to look at the odds about getting into the top six. And the difference for between Philly getting into the top six when they're the fifth, worst record and the seventh worst record is like a 25% spread. So you don't even have to have a college degree to figure out. If we're seventh, we're kind of in trouble and if we're fifth,

we're in great shape on keeping the pick. So the Sixers are extremely incentivized to get the number five worst record. That's right. Because if they're seventh, right, for them to get into the top six, they have to jump into the top four. If they're fifth, what they have to have happen is for two teams behind them to both jump them and them not get into the top four. So it's a huge swing. And obviously, let's be honest, carmically for the top sixers, the way this is probably going to go is for them to get to five

and land in seven and send the pick to the fuck. Yeah, you got to get the old frozen envelopes to, you know, come back for this one. But last night, the top sixers are down 16 with four minutes to go. I have the game out at the garden. Good job, top six. I'm watching the game. I go, hey, top sixers.

They got this in the bag. I look away. I look back two minutes later. It's a three-point game with 50 seconds to go. It's like, oh, here come the lizards. They're making a push. They're trying to get back in front. Because by the way, the other half of this,

the lizards went into last night's game, one win behind the Utah Jazz for the worst record in the league. Because they keep winning. They're trying to get down there too. And that's about the floor is like the furthest you can fall because the odds are the same for number one overall. Correct. Go on.

So. It still matters. So eventually this resolve with the top sixers emerging with a desperately needed victory, desperately needed victory, getting the loss, the nets lose, Raptors now eliminated for getting into the top six. Top sixers going to be in the top six, barring truly calamitous winning, which I don't think we're going to see happening. Calamidates.

I like that one. Jackson, you slacked off last time on the bocab words, by the way. And then we'll see what happens over the next. over the next couple weeks to see whether the top sixers can get ahead of the Brooklyn Nets, who again have lost 15 of 17 and are desperately trying to move up those lottery standings too. So with all that having happened on Wednesday, on Thursday, Tanya Ganguly asked Adam Silver about tanking. Correct. In the wake of our story. And- nobody knows until Bond Tempts and Pelt and wrote about it.

Listen, it was, we wrote a good, I was happy with our story. It was a good story. I enjoyed it. And I like some of the potential solutions, which they need to seriously consider. So Adam, so Adam echoed a lot of what Evan Wash said in our story. Evan Wash is, they had a strategy in analytics and the guy who's behind the playing tournament and flat like all the, all the creations that you've seen coming. He's the idea, man. He's the chief nerd in the NBA office. So Adam, Adam and Evan both said that the flattening of the odds and the 65. game rule, the player petition policy, and all these things have done a good job of limiting

tanking. I think we can all, hold on, hold on. I'm not saying I endorse this view. I feel meo. But on the same, on the same token, Adam then said he understands why relegation, going back to the European discussion earlier, is part of many leagues in the world. Quote, it comes down to incentives. There's no doubt that incentives change at the end of a season, especially when you have a draft that's perceived not just with the top pick, but the top maybe few picks, an incredibly strong draft. That's a way, a legitimate way of rebuilding in this lead. So I'm not sitting here and saying, all right, here's the new calibration of the draft lottery that will solve it. We don't have a new plan at the moment. He also reiterated what Evan Wash said in our story, which is that the competition

committee is going to be looking at tanking and we will see what they end up coming up with as a quote-unquote fix, but I'm not sure there is going to be a quote-unquote fix. They need to take some kind of action. Like meet, discuss all the ideas. I'm not sitting here telling you you got to do this, but you got to do something. Action has to be taken. I am not sure there's anything that can be done. No. There are like some of the ideas in your story can be done. You have to make it so where it's not in the best interest of a third of the league to absolutely put crap on the floor in March and April. I'm sorry, dude. They should like, they should be. paying people to go to some of these games instead of making people buy tickets.

It's bad for the league. It's bad for fans. It's a bad product. The great businessman Charlie Munger. I have referred to it before. I will refer to the exact quote. Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. They have to change the incentive. Absolutely. Very simple. And I like personally the idea of, okay, losses count toward the lottery odds up until we can say the All-Star break, you know, last 20 games or whatever, after that point, it's wins. incentivizes the teams that are going to be these Cooper flag. Well, I actually don't even think you have to get that complicated.

This is my without, I don't have an 11 pay. I don't have an 11 slide PowerPoint here. Why don't you just make the lottery odds completely flat? I wouldn't be a, I wouldn't be opposed that either. And if, and if, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, and, , The retort to that would be because people would tank to get out of the play-in. But I would say if you get in the play-in and then you don't move to the move-in,

your odds could potentially even be higher. You could actually reward a team that makes the play-in and doesn't make the playoffs. Here's the problem with that, all right? And here's the problem with all of these plans, right? At the end of the day, the NBA has a draft for a reason. It is to give the worst teams the best chance to get impact players to change the direction of their franchises, right? The difference between the NBA and European leagues, like, you know, where Real Madrid plays, right? They just buy all the best players.

They have the best players every year. They win the league every single year. The NBA is built on a league where, in theory, at least, Utah has the same way to win as the Lakers. Now, as we know, that is not exactly true on a variety of levels. However, the one way where the Utah Jazz can get a player like Luca Dantich in the draft or like Cooper Flag in the draft is if they win the lottery and that guy's on their team. If you create a system where- I guess, go on.

Sure. But if you create a system where you're making it even harder for the bad teams to get a guy like that, you could have a situation where you have these teams that are just bad for 10, 15, 20 years. Now, you would say, well, some of those teams have already existed, but that's where I- Show me the incentive and I'll show you the outcome. Sure. I agree. I also just think that at some point, like, there are going to be bad teams.

If you want to say, yeah, of course, it's a zero-sum situation. David Stern used to say, for every team that's rising, another team must be falling. I understand that. And I honestly think that basically what the league basically says, and I'm not saying they say this actually physically in the room. But they're like, this is a problem for the last month to six weeks of our season. We'll hold our nose. It's also this. I also do think this year in particular is an extraordinarily obtuse example of this happening.

You have the Sixers who are not expected to be the- Obtuce. Brother. No. Wendy and I wrote a tantalose. epidemic story the year that the mouths are tanking and try to get Luca. I mean, that, okay, that year, yes, that year, when there's a year where there's a draft like

that draft, which had Luca and Trey Young and Jared Jackson Jr. and all these guys in it. DeAndre Aten went first and Marvin Bagger the third one. Okay, Marvin, DeAndre Aten was seen as a big time prospect. You shouldn't have gone first. There's good players in every draft except for last year. That's not true. There are different drafts that are, there are drafts. teams are going to tank for Zion.

Teams are going to tank tank tank for Kemp for Wembe. Like, Jesus, are you kidding me? Yes, when there are elite players in the draft, which isn't every year, there isn't a prospect like Wemby every year. McBan, there's not. I just mentioned like three of the last

five or six drafts. Like, it's a damn near every year. And then when there are elite prospects in the draft, teams are going to aggressively tank. This year, on top of those teams, you've also had the Pelicans who thought they're going to be a playoff team were destroyed by injuries. The Sixers who thought they were, they believed they were going to be a championship level

team. They've been destroyed by injuries, among other things. The Raptors thought they could be a playoff team. A bunch of their guys got hurt at the beginning of the season. That is only, the spurs were not, I mean, you were betting on the Spurs when in 40 games. Oh my God, we haven't heard from that. Although they have one, I don't know what's going on with the Cavs game tonight that's happening right now, but they have won three in a round. those spurs. They're trying to give you life. 31 and 40. It ain't over yet. And listen, the game's limits off

if they go over. Okay, sure. Victor Weniama going out for the season completely derailed them too. The spurs would be in the play-in if they had if he hadn't gone out. Let's not act like tanking is an occasional thing. There's tanking every single season. Some seasons are much more blatant

than others. It's a massive problem for the NBA. The product in March is much worse than it should be. They've got to do something to get this thing figured out or at least minimized. And you did write a very good story. And one thing that honestly I hadn't put a ton of thought into that you guys pointed out probably was Pelton because it was a good point was the like, hey, the protections on picks, the top sixers. It's about like if that pick is is not a top six protected pick, if you could

only do, I think you guys said top four or lottery. That was me. No, that was Pelton. If you could only do top four or lottery, it's a different deal. The Mavericks, when they had the tank that cost them 750 grand, you know, the year of the Kyrie deal, that was because they owed a top 10 protected pick. And so it was this embarrassing deal where this team that had, I mean, they had a tiny, tiny, tiny minuscule chance to make the plan at that point because things have gone so haywire. But they still had a tiny, tiny, tiny minuscule chance for making the plan. And they pulled the plug in tanked and it was embarrassing for the league. That doesn't happen if it's not a top 10 protected pick. Yes.

All of the most egregious examples of tanking over the last 15 years or so, Harrison Barnes, the MAV situation, the Sixers won this year. They all are related to protection of picks. Not all. I would say the Utah Jazz say, hold my near beer. Well, sure. There's always going to be horrible. Okay, that's a good line.

There's always going to be horrible teams trying to be awful at the very bottom. bottom. I'm talking about like these teams that are trying to keep their draft picks. Those are always the most obvious. I mean, most teams are getting fined $750,000 like the maps were. That was because Wendy likes the new beer. I mean, it was a great line. I like Bontem's, so you get the gold medal for that. Bon, Tems gets the silver for calamitous winning. There's been some, we've had some good stuff today. I think getting rid of the pick protection thing is the best way to go. I do like the idea of flipping the standings at some point in the season. season and rewarding winning.

I also just overall think that the biggest thing that would change this would be if the schedule got shortened, but that is a different discussion for another day. If it's a 66 games schedule, they'd be tanking from 46 to 66. Well, there just would be less of these games. Like this has been, it's been weeks of this. I agree you're never getting rid of it totally. Okay. Correct.

There's going to be some teams who do it, even from the start of the season. Having said that, right now we got nine teams thanking. Yes. This year's particularly awful between all of the way this is gone. And again, I think, and we've talked about this, this gets back to the whole toes conversation that makes you guys uncomfortable. But I think this is the best basketball in terms of style of play, skill, excitement, entertainment that there has ever been. except that's when teams are like their goals to win games. If the goals to win games, it's a hell of an entertaining league.

I just wish that was the case every single game. And you also win. Right. Show me the other. I'll show you the outcome. The other problem just in general right now is that across the Eastern Conference, there's very little for anybody to play for from one all the way to 15, right? So not only do you have these teams at the bottom that are bad,

you have these, I mean, then you have these teams in the play. and it just aren't very good. But even from one to six, there's barely any battles for anything. So it's just there's just not, it's hard when two thirds of the league has no drama at all associated to it for the final six weeks of the season. So that's all I was saying before. It's one thing if there's like selective rest trying to get guys fresh for the playoffs

and young players are playing and teams are still trying to win. And like it's legitimate player development opportunities. That's one thing. It's another thing when teams are figuring out how to put out the crappiest lineups possible. Or if teams are signing guys that aren't good in the G League to two-way contracts to give minutes and stuff, some of the tanking measures that we've seen. I do think the one thing from my story that I thought was especially relevant on this topic was Kevin, Kevin talked to Evan Wash for the story.

and he asked specifically about what some of these teams have been doing in terms of playing guys for some of the game, but not all the game, and like sort of this new innovation in tanking. And this, I thought, was probably the most interesting quote in the whole story. Quote, we're not in the business of policing rotations in that way. For the league to step in and say that a team chose to play one player over another player, and that was a wrong decision, I think that's a bit of a slippery slope. And oh, by the way, some of those younger guys actually go on to win the game. So to me, the league was saying there, as long as the guy's playing, it's all good. So that is one innovation or change that I think is only going to continue. Well, and again, that's why ideally teams would actually go into games hoping to win.

All right. What a, what a, there was a lot, I don't know if we learned a lot from the BOG, but we had a lot of good topics. We learned a lot. Again, there wasn't an announcement of expansion. but expansion is closer now than it's been at any point in the last 20 years, and it's only going to get closer. I look forward to Seattle being in NBA City again. I never actually covered a game in Seattle, an NBA game.

I'm just am excited for my guy, Pat Kevin Peltin, to be able to go to games again at home. I've told the story about the last game I covered in Seattle. Should I tell it again, Jackson? Yes, I don't recall. Jerome James, famous Nick. Yes. Jerome James was playing for the Sonics. I was covering the calves.

Back then, the media sat right on the baseline, right next to the bench. And, you know, the thing about it was back with newspapers, the game started in Seattle at 7.30 Seattle time. That was 10.30 Akron time. And I had to have a story that was going to go in the paper that printed at midnight. So I had to have some sort of story. So I came up with something. We called it a crapper.

Oh. You know, because it was usually crap. That's what teams are putting on the floor these days. That's right. So usually, as you know, I am very attuned to the game and watching everything. Absolutely. Very tuned in real time. Sitting on the baseline, writing my crapper in the first quarter.

And Jerome James, as all Knicks fans would tell you, had a bit of an issue with foul trouble. He tended to commit very, you know, he wasn't the most fleet of foot and he tended to reach. And so early in the game, in the first quarter, he was whistled for his second foul, which I believe had happened to multiple games in a row. And he was going to be headed to the bench for a period of time, having been in foul trouble again. He did not agree with the call.

Oh. So he took the ball and wanted to throw it off the advertising table that was on the baseline. But Jerome did not throw it off the table. He threw it a little bit high. Not the most accurate shooter, Jerome James. Yeah. Like a free throw, go on. But I think the key is, you know, there was a, there was a, there was speed.

There was anger. There was fury. There was some force. And the ball went above the table. It went above the laptop and smashed me. Oh, no. Square in the face. Did your nose bleed?

I was lucky it didn't break my nose. It did not break my nose. But of course, it wasn't like gushing blood, but like definitely there was blood. And more than anything, it shocked the hell out of me. I would think. And the referee who's not retired, I remember I always used to say, thank you for having my back. Kevin Fear, call the technical foul on Jerome James. for this action.

I would think. Sitting about 12 feet to my left was the Cavs bench. And sitting on the end of the Cavs bench, the late great Robert Tractor trailer, who saw me get blasted in the face and thought it was the funniest thing he saw all day. And was laughing so hard that he fell out of the seat onto the baseline, laughing at me getting blasted in the face. So even though- By the way, fair reaction to this entire situation. I mean, it's a humorous situation with all due respect to face.

You know, as this was like 2007, LeBron was, you know, very entrenched. And so he would shoot all technical free throws, which like Tom Haberstrow later wrote a whole story about why is LeBron shooting technical free throws? He's like a 70. Because he was going to score 50,000 points. You don't do that by let other guys get those freaking free throws. So LeBron goes up to the line and takes the technical, which is at the basket that I'm right underneath. And he misses it.

Oh, no. And I looked at him and I was like, I, you know, I, you know, you know, you may think I contribute nothing, but I, I took this shot in the face so that your team may have a point. This is like when Isbia took the charge on Joker to get the same. Exactly, exactly the same thing, except for I didn't have a choice but to flop. There was no flopping chance. I didn't see it coming. So that was my last experience in Key Arena.

Did you fall? Didn't fall. I have, huh? Okay. That was actually the second, that was the second time I was injured sitting court side at a game. Hold on. I've got questions regarding this one. Yeah. Okay. You did not fall. That's impressive. Okay. I like that. You said the rest name was Ken Fears? Ken, uh, fear, F, E-H-R, Kevin Fear. Kevin Fear. My bad. I apologize. How tall is this gentleman? He was taller than me. I don't know. He was not, she was not a short guy. Oh, you have his, you Okay. So not a quick, not a quick, not a, not a quick sugar fella.

No. Okay. Okay. I like that. So not to ruin the story. It was one of two times where I had interaction midgame with LeBron involving a free throw. Now, were you not in Seattle after 2005, by the way? What's it? Maybe it wasn't this last time. Don't. Okay. Maybe it was 2005. That's my last memory. Hold on. Hold on. I want to, I do want to get, we've got to get one quick, uh, interruption. And then I want to get to the other time that you were. injured. But speaking of Izzo, or I'm sorry, speaking of Ishbia, flopping on Joker, you know, I recently did have a conversation with old motivation Matt, Mike Clay Matt, whatever you want

to call him, money Matt for sure. And me being the thorough reporter I am, I actually did ask him about the epic flop job that he, I mean, he should have been a fine. It was such a flop when he drew that technical foul on Joker just to be blatantly honest with you. And he said, well, hold on I'm actually scrolling here looking for the exact quote. I said, and I was blunt with my line of questioning. I did clarify. This was a total flop. You're so soft and.

Yes. And he said, this is an actual quote. He said, Isso told me you have my hands up, make sure you fall back and get the call. That was Tom Isso's coaching coming to life to get the son. a point in the playoffs. Also, I did look up Ishpia's college stats. He, I think he had 28 career points, which is honestly more than I anticipated. It would be.

I don't know if Mr. Ishbia meets your six foot requirement. Oh, there's no chance. And hell, he can own a team. He can't rough a game. All right, all right. So, but more turnovers than assists. The man's always been a risk taker. Anyways, that's the other time.

Well, the other time that you were injured. Well, LeBron, the other time was when he had made like 27, three throws in a row. And back then, maybe it wasn't 20, it was some high number. And back then, we used to talk to them right before the game. And we were in Minnesota. I said, hey, you've made, you know, 23 free throws in a row. We know, what's the story? And, you know, he gave some answer. So first quarter, he goes in, he gets fouled. First free throw, brick. And he looks over at me. This is between free throws one and two and gives me the dirtiest look you possibly imagine. That was the day the friendship died.

Apparently. I think he ended up going like six out of seven at the line that night, so it didn't impede his hot streak. The other time that I suffered an injury court side was in Bakersfield, California, during my first year covering the NBA. The Cavs played the Lakers in a preseason game. And I got to tell you. Bakersfield.

I would say this might be one of the great forny events that ever took place in Bakersfield. They had some kind of minor league team there, like a jam. Oh. this was that was the that was the G-League team that no longer no I'm talking about like that's they also have a minor league baseball team or dead I don't think they do anymore okay well did the minor league baseball team ever have a game where Shaq Kobe gary Peyton Carl Malone LeBron James played in it because that's what happened that night yeah and it was the last preseason game like back when they played like seven or eight

preseason games and both teams like trying to win and like playing like a actual like near NBA game like where they the starters will play 30 minutes and a ball got knocked towards out of bounds and Derek Fisher went to save it and tossed it to save it back in and came barreling over the thing wiped me out. His shoe hit me in the eye. I wiped out on the floor, whole thing. How is your face so TV ready at all times after these facial injuries? Yeah, back in the day when we sat courtside, we had to be, you know, you had to be into the game. You had to be paying attention. Oh, you don't have to pay attention anymore. No, we're like in the second deck, you know. Heck no. So that's the end of story time. Those are good stories.

All right. Thank you for watching, listening to The Hoop Collective. Thank you to McMahon and Bon Temps. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. You haven't yet. Wonderboy. By the way, you need to have a book with you at all times. I delivered a dozen of them to our great MBA today behind the scene staff today. Well, that's very nice of you. And I'm sure that was a pain to ship that to haul those books all the way out I had to bring an extra carrier. But then when you were, then when you were getting it promoted on the air today, you didn't have it to hold up.

Oh, always have it to hold up. Okay, okay. I should have sent it like a cover art. When people are walking through the airport and they see it, they go, oh,

that's McMahon's book. I'm, I'm just going to like get a t-shirt printed out that I wear all the times with it with a cover on there. How's that? Well, I don't like that. No,

that's a little bit over the top. Oh, okay. Anyway, the Wonder Boy, get it, uh, find purveyors.

or even just average purveyors. Any old purveyor. I don't know if you can buy it, that'd be cool. All right. All right. Thank you again. We'll talk to you next week. Adios amigos, which is Spanish for Friends.