Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - AD Returns, Concern For Lakers? + Suns Winning Something Or Nothing?

Episode Date: March 26, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the release of MacMahon’s new book, Anthony Davis returning for the Mavs, if the Suns’ win streak is something or nothing, the amount of concern for the Lakers’ struggles of late, the battle for the Play-In Tournament in the Western Conference, if Indiana can be a dangerous playoff team and some wild stories from MacMahon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoot Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from New York City, is Tim Bontas.

Hello, everybody. Join us from Dallas, Texas. We're recording this on March 25th. And March 25th has been a day that's been very important to this man. Tim McMahon, who we will say his full name here, because that is the name that is on the cover of the Wonder Boy, The Curse of Greatness, which is released. today, Tuesday, March 25th, 2025, Tim McMahon. Howdy, partners?

I wish I feel like I should have like a blazer with elbow patches and a little pipe to puff on. But, you know, I'm all distinguished now. Yeah. Yeah, you definitely need like reading glasses and, you know, a fuller beard. I might actually need some reading glasses. Like my eyesight is, I'm getting old, fellas. Yeah, because you wrote this book.

it took it some value. Congratulations on release day. The hard work that you did to get here, I know from being an author slash co-author of four books. Oh, four. Like I said, I got four of them things. I'm not trying to do that. I was just saying I've been there.

So it's nerve-wracking and relief and everything like that. Well, in all seriousness, and I mentioned this in the acknowledgments, but this book was only possible because you are such an accomplished author. All right. Let's chill with the mutual ad. You're a New York Times bestseller. And you were approached.

Yes, sir. Two times. First team. You were approached about the possibility of writing a Lucca Donchage book. And you referred them to me. And that's how this whole process started. So I mean. That's not 100% right.

They asked me who I thought would be a good. Whatever. Better story. But I will say this. Like man, and the facts, they don't exactly. The rest of the facts in the book are right.

I couldn't have thought of someone better than you, I think is what the truth is. And then bomb tempts, you didn't really help out a whole lot in this process. I did, somebody mentioned me, they said, does every third page have a bomb tempts interruption?

There would be a better book itself. Yeah, be a better book itself. I love it. All right. Well, you can get that at all book retailers, electronic or hardcover. So, congratulations to our guy. Very happy for us. Pretty awesome. Very happy for you, man. It's been a lot of work. We've been hearing about the book for a long time, all the travels around the world report on it, all the craziness the last couple months. It's a very awesome accomplishment. And by the way,

yesterday, an excerpt from the book ran on ESPN.com. That was my idea. I was. My idea. I I will say that. Oh, actually, Bomb Tims did have some promotional ideas, and Bon Timps absolutely did have that idea. The schedule makers helped out a lot having Mavs, Nix, the day the book was coming out. Yeah, except for Brunson's hurt now and Lucas is like,

Hey, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. You still got to have the excerpt come out on dot com about it. I didn't realize this until I was on Nick's film school yesterday. And Jonathan mentioned to me, Luca and Brunson never faced each other after the trade. Either one or the other was out every time. But anyway, is that right?

Not one time? Wow. That's crazy. Well, the excerpt that is on ESPN.com covers basically how the Mavericks lost Jalen Brunson and the series of events and the moments where they could have locked him down and didn't. You know, I did, I guess I knew this, but I forgot it, McMahon. I forgot that the front office changed. changeover was happening at the same time because you would have thought that a couple of

these occasions getting Jalen Brunson locked down was kind of a no-brainer. Well, but listen, it wasn't a Donnie Nelson thing. It wasn't a Nico Harrison thing. It was a Mark Cuban was the one who's running basketball operations then. And this was Mark Cuban. And I think in some ways, logically was always looking, especially They knew the KP trade wasn't working out. This was like KP got traded at the deadline that Brunson's last year in Dallas. But they knew like, okay, we've got to find a co-star for this guy. If they were going to make that trade, Brunson was going to have to be part of it.

And that's why they didn't offer the extension until after the trade deadline. And then frankly, they mis-evaluated him. They didn't believe that he could be that kind of guy. By the way, not many people did, but Cuban also thought that Brunson was not going to have much of a market for most of that season. Yeah, you covered that in the chapter. I just say, yeah, I don't want to kick the Mavericks. I mean, we're going to talk about them because Anthony Davis returned on Monday night. So plenty of kick into the Mavericks over the past few weeks.

It is what it is. I will just say that the Mavericks over a period of time, they lost Jalen Brunson for literally nothing. Nothing. They did, Porzingis didn't work out, and obviously Porzengis is going to be a champion, and I'm not even arguing like that's the Maverick's fault. Like part of that was the dynamics between Porzengis and Luca, which I'm sure you go into. But the trade for Porzengis yielded Spencer Dinwiddie and Davos Bretons. No, yeah, when they traded, when they dumped Porzings, and that was when they still owed that last pick to the Knicks.

I'll say this. I think Porzingis's success in Boston was paved by his disappointment in Dallas. I think the experience he had in Dallas put him, he grew from that, he learned from that. He was humbled by that. And I think that's allowed him to be the player that he's been for the Celtics and to be happy and excited and embracing that sort of a role, which he had a lot of difficulty doing in Dallas when he thought it was a 1A and 1B. frankly, he thought originally he might be 1A. And then it was clearly like he was the headliner of Lucas Supporting Cast. Yeah, I mean, look, when that trade happened, a lot of people called me and I'm sure called you guys and said, is this guy really going to be cool in Boston as the fourth option or the fifth option or the second option or the third option? Yeah, they had to extend his contract immediately.

And I was like, are we sure he's going to extend it? Well, they look, they bet on Porzingis coming in there. and there were a lot of people who questioned whether that was a good bet. And for the moment Chris Daps has gotten to Boston, he was so happy to be out of purgatory in Washington after, like you said, McMahon, going from New York to Dallas thinking he's going to be part of this at minimum, star pairing with Luca. That doesn't work.

He gets shipped off with them sent in a second round pick, by the way, in that deal to Washington. It was like, got to get this guy out of the door. Davis-Bor-Cat-on's contract at the time was one of the worst contracts than the NBA. The Mavericks took that. Yeah, and the Wizards wanted to dump. That was, didn't what he was early in his deal. The Wizards were like, he screwed up. We don't want this guy.

That's right. My point here is the Mavericks lost Brunson for nothing. The Porzingas thing is a disaster for what they sent out and what they had to dump him for. You know, not that Spencer was a bad player, but like that's not what that wasn't what your transaction was about. He's not the co-superstar that the Mavericks. They landed when they pulled off that. That was a dump. And they still ended up in the finals in 20.

It's amazing. It truly is amazing. And look, they recover from the Brunson trade because they're able to get chyri at such a depressed value. But that didn't pay immediate dividends. They freaking tank to keep the top 10 protected pick. They still owed on the KP trade that year. Yeah. But as I was talking to a general manager in the playoffs, and I mentioned this in what was supposed to be the final chapter of the book. There's a final final chapter now. But this GM said to me, because we're talking about the book, I'm telling him like it's basically the premise on the pressure when you draft a prodigy. And he said, there's pressure. But a talent like that also gives you a really wide margin for error. And man, did the Mavericks use up that margin? And they successfully scrambled to build. a contender around Luca to ease the pressure to put to put him in a position where he was like, yep, I can compete for championships in Dallas. Cool. I'm here to stay. This is my home. I love it here.

And then they decided to dump him. It's a hell of a way to end the story. I look forward to reading. That's the only thing in this book I don't know, but I'm looking forward to that part of it. Okay. Now to the modern day Maverick. Anthony Davis came back after missing six weeks with the adductor injury on Monday in Brooklyn. The Mavs won that game, which is a headline these days, although they've been putting some wins together as they've gotten a little bit healthier in the last 10 days or so.

Bontemps, you used extensive quotes in your story because this is the first time AD had spoken to the media, obviously since the Kyrie trade and everything, or the Kyrie injury and everything changed for the Mavericks. What did you think he looked like? What did you think about what he said about where the Mavericks are? I mean, the fun fact is Anthony Davis has been a Maverick for two months, and he's done three interviews, and I've done two of them. Like, bands on one of them. So it sums up, I think, the Anthony Davis experience pretty succinctly. Bond-Tims has done great work on the Mavericks beat during the A year.

Sure. I sure have. Look, the Nets have lost 14 of 16. The Nets are terrible. The Nets are trying to be terrible. So I don't really think there was a lot to take from the game. Other than that, Jason Kidd, three different times before the game last night, said the following. I want to have a positive and healthy return for Anthony Davis. Yeah, we like to have him finish the game.

That's a low level goal. And so he finished the game. He looked fine. They won the game. That's all that really matters. I was going to say, and let's just be real clear. The franchise and some people within the franchise not only would have been cool with AD shut. it down for the season, encouraged him to shut it down for the season. And AD, to his credit,

is a proud pro. And he's like, no, I'm coming back. I'm playing. And for all the stuff that's gone wrong, primarily since he's been there, the catastrophic injury to Kyrie, where he's gone for the rest of the season, and unfortunately, probably in the next season, you know, AD's like, no, like, we still got stuff to play for. I'm a pro. I'm coming back. back. And he's a competitor. And, you know, here he is. Yeah, that's what I think is the interesting thing about what he said about that, Bontem's. Obviously, he hadn't talked since the Kyrie news. And, you know, he obviously helped Kyrie off the court, said everything you'd expect about that. But yeah, look, I thought it says

a lot about Anthony Davis, I think, that he was determined to come back and play if there was any time left in the season. And I think it, like you said, McMahon, I think it speaks to his professionalism and wanting to be out there with his team. It also speaks to the fact, if we're just going to be frank, that the Mavericks have no healthy players, and they're trying to get to eight bodies, and they need him to play to have enough guys to play. So I think that's certainly at least part of it. They've got so many now. They've been able to hold on to that last game of Kessler Edwards' two-way eligibility. I think that's, I think that's expiring today against the Knicks on the second night of the back-to-back. I think we'll know by the time the

pod airs whether he will have played his final two-way game, but I think he's playing it against the next. But by the way, McMahon, this is the front end of when AD could have come back, right? Like when the timeline, first off, there was some debate about whether he would need surgery or not. There was a, I know there was a day or two there where they were collecting opinions. That's number one. Number two, we were thinking maybe with a week or two left in the season, there's three

weeks left. So, like, he, I'm not saying he returned fast. It is the front end. And I was told before Kyrie's injury, I was told that they were hoping to get two or three weeks of AD and Pye together. Okay. So this is going to be in front of that. Well, Lively's not back. No, Lively's not back.

Lively's progressing towards his return. It feels like it's on the horizon. We'll see what on the horizon. Lively practiced with the legends. I thought he'd played five on five with him. And I was told last night he hasn't actually played five on five yet, but he didn't. He's done like three on three and stuff. A.D. practiced twice with the legends.

and then, you know, he wasn't going to play both ends of a back-to-back coming fresh off of a, what has it been, six-week injury absence. So he chose, he chose Brooklyn, and then, you know, they'll play the Knicks with Adam a night. Yeah, no, I just, I thought it was just impressive that he, you know, was determined to come back and play and did. And, you know, it says a lot that he wanted to be back out there with his teammates. And, yeah, I mean, look, it's a team that's in a far different position than it was when he was. was acquired and when he played last, but it was in a season that's obviously been dominated by injuries for them over the last two months. It was nice to see him back out there. Derek lively, as McMahon said, is on the horizon of a return. We'll see how soon. Doesn't seem like it's that

far away. And look, if those guys are both out there, Dallas probably should be the 10th seed. Like, they probably should be able to hold off Phoenix. Or nine. Listen. Also true. Well, that's, yeah, let's, well, okay, so we're going to talk about the suns in the minute. in a minute. Dallas has won a couple of games in a row. It's obviously been a free fall since the AD and Kyrie injuries, but they are now currently tied for 10th with the sons. I see that the NBA has the Mavericks, or the sons ahead. The sons have the tiebreaker. So they must have the tiebreaker. And I need to double check on the Kings. Maybe Jackson can do a little bit of homework here for a change, put him to work as far as the King's Sons and Kings, Mavs, tiebreakers. But

the sons, as we've discussed when we won a little bit, like they're playing good basketball, they're stacking wins, big win over the bucks last night with Booker hitting the game winner. The sons and the mads are only a half game back at the Kings at this point. So it might not be either or it might be there seeing each other in that 9-10 game. Well, the Kings have lost seven out of ten in three in a row. So bonus has been in and out largely with, I think his ankle was what he was out recently for. I can't remember what was before that, but he... I think it was a hammy and then the ankle,

but he came back last night. Yeah, so he's back. But the kings are going in the wrong direction since the Deerrin Fox trade. And we'll talk about the Sons in a minute here, but... So to answer McMahon's question, before we move on, the sons have won the season series against Dallas. Yes, I knew that.

I'm just going through all three of them. the Mavericks have lost all four games to the Kings and the sons have lost to the Kings two out of the first three games they've played and the final time they play is on the final day of the regular season. Hey bosses, don't send me to Sacramento for that. Let me catch a little bit of a breather

because it does look like I'll be covering some play in basketball. Well, just stay in California then. In Sacramento. But I'm telling you, I might. Sunday the 13th. At this point, a Mavs' sons 9-10 game is a very realistic possibility. It's in place. They're right on the king's neck.

The kings are struggling. Now, the sons still have a tough schedule. The sons are playing their best basketball since they're 8-1 start. And the Madvicks are, you know, I mean, we'll see. Like, they've got 80 back. Lives on the way. They've, like, Dinwiddie's kind of keeping things afloat and terms of offensive creation, you know, like the Najee Marshall, PJ,

Washions on the roster, like they're competing. Let's just talk Turkey. Do you think that the Mavericks, let's just say they get the 10, and so they got to go on the road, all right? Let's just say they get the 10. And let's just say that AD is AD, okay? Is there any, without Kyrie, are we just filling time here? I mean, listen, the Mavericks are doing any sort of real playoff day?

Yeah, I mean, what's your question? Is your question, can they win two playing games? Well, that's where I'd start. Yeah, and like, you never know in a playing game. It's a one-game deal. Well, look, I'm just saying that they potentially would have a lot of size if Lively and AD are back. And they have given the Thunder some problems. I'm not saying, they're not, they have no chance to do anything against a Thunder without.

Hold on, hold on, hold on. The Mavericks beat the Thunder three out of four this year. Oh, hold on. Do I have the floor? O and one when Luca played, 3 and O when PJ Washington played. There you go. If that's a killer PJ Washington's active, then the Mavericks, I tell you what, Mavericks might be favored in that series.

He's healthy shoot. Well, I'm just saying like, are we just give me your, well, you know, just give me your assessment. Are we messing around here or should I go to commercial? The Mavericks don't have a chance to freaking do anything without Kyrie, obviously. Okay. All right. I just wanted to hear you say it. One really quick thing on these three teams, a team that's got a very vested interest in how this plays out is the Atlanta Hawks.

They have a top 12 protected pick from the Kings. If the Kings finish ninth or tenth, there's a extremely high likelihood that Atlanta gets the 13th or 14th pick in the draft. If Sacramento does finish 11th in the West, they're going to be in the top 12, unless one of the last two teams jumps them, which has never happened. That's going to be a very interesting little thing to watch here over the final couple weeks. to more hoop collective podcast after this.

So when we left, we were just about to talk about the Phoenix Suns. We've won four games in a row. They've made up a whole bunch of ground on the kings in front of them. And the Mavericks have come rushing back toward them as they've struggled since the Kyrie injury. And they wake up here. They have a game on Wednesday night on ESPN against the Celtics. We'll see if the Celtics have Jason Tatum in that game. The Celtics, I believe, are 10 or 11 in March.

they have, they've been pushed out of our consciousness because they've been handling business largely, but Tatum did roll his ankle on Monday night. He landed on the bodice of bonus, his leg or his foot. And so we'll see.

By all accounts, he was moving around just fine after the game. Did not return to the game, but was in the locker room hanging out, looked fine, sounded fine. Right, but. Well,

in the next day, which you got to. No, for sure. I just mean it, just so people, I don't think we're looking at a Jalen Brunson.

ankle spree. That's all. Right. Okay. So anyway, they may not have Tatum. So what's interesting is Bradley Beal went down with a hamstring injury, I don't know, like a week and a half ago, and the Sons haven't lost. They are 13 and 3 this season when Beale doesn't play. Now, I am saying that stat, there's so many things that have gone on with the Sons this year, and it's been such a hard team to comprehend in certain ways.

I am not trying to say that all of those 16 games are just like this streak. But what has been going on here is Mike Boodenholzer has gone to a lineup that basically focuses on defending low-usage, high defense players, guys who are basically all catch and shoot and then I'll defend at the other end and letting Booker and Durant cook. So they've been starting Booker and Durant. And then Colin Gillespie has been starting a point guard, pushed Tyos Jones out of the starting lineup. And he is on a two-way contract. He is on a two-way contract. So if they make the playoffs, Bontemps, do you know if you make the play? Are you allowed to play as a two-way?

Probably not, right? I don't believe so. I don't believe you will need to be converted by the end of the regular season. And I suspect he might be, which would be an interesting little thing to monitor in Phoenix. Yeah. So, okay. So anyway, you've got Colin Gillespie. I mean, when we came into this season, we were like, oh, the sons have fixed the point card position.

They were able to get Tyos Jones and they got Monty Morris. Like, that's going to really improve it. And like, here we are in March. and they're relying on a two-way guy, Colin Gillespie. So Gillespie is, they got a two-way guy starting, and their starting center is Nick Richards, the guy they traded for at mid-season from the Hornets. He's been filling that defensive role.

And then Ryan Dunn, their rookie, who's been in the starting lineup for most of the year? And he's been a story, but he's a three-and-d player. And he's been in the starting lineup a lot. He's also been kind of on the fringe of the rotation some, but, and they're playing, And help me it with the pronunciation of the rookie big old Oso. Just call him Oso.

Oso Oso Oigadooro. There you go. But they've been playing him a lot too. And listen, we've talked a lot about some of the massive, expensive misses of the Maddish Bair in terms of personnel. And we're going to get to Bradley B. in a minute. You know what the sons have done well? They've drafted well. Ryan Dunn, and look, to their credit, they traded back and were able to get Ryan Dunn at the 20th overall pick.

Great pick. Oso in the second round, really good pick. To Moni Kamara with a 50-second overall pick, they traded them before he played a second. But boy, oh boy, that's a hell of a pick. The scouting, the drafting, has been very, very... Man, let's take it a step further. the team that they got to the finals with and then next year won the 60 games

was a team that they drafted. They drafted Cam Johnson. They drafted McHale Bridges. They drafted Devin Booker. All guys, these were not number one through three picks. Left out the number one pick that they drafted that they could have drafted a certain Wonderboy instead. I was going to say, the DeAndre 8th and pick, perhaps that one.

Maybe they should have listened. However, with the Andrii... I coach this kid with the Slovenian national team. He's pretty freaking good. but Chris Paul is the finishing piece there, but yes. And Vladi Devach, like knew the family, you know, like that, yes, there was very strange decisions being made. Let's cover it in the book. Oh, it is.

Still, having said that, regardless of that decision, Aiton was their franchise center when they went to the finals and the next year won 60 games and I thought they were going back. The crazy thing about this team is that for a team and a franchise, and by the way, this was James Jones, making all of these picks, his front office is making all those picks. The team that has done amazingly in the draft, they don't want to draft, they hate their draft. They put all their picks. And like they're doing well with like the, you know, like the bargain bin draft picks because that's all they can have.

And by the way, if they land in the lottery this year, boy, do the Houston Rockets feel good about that because they've got the swap right on it. It'll be a Rockets lottery pick, not a Sun's lottery pick. look, man, let's just, let's just, what do you say? Talk Turkey. Let's talk to her. Yes, I like it. The Bradley Deal, Beal deal has been a disaster. It's a massive bust. And I'm not, Bradley Beal is a good NBA player. This is, this is the big expansive statement. The Bradley Beal on a god awful contract that doesn't enhance anything that the Sun Stars do. I was in, I was at there, I believe it was their home opener.

There's the MAV's first road game this year. I covered that game. I just wanted to give Tyler Ford the two small signs in the hallway post game. A little wee little ref. But anyways, the sons won that game. And I was talking with some MAV's coaches afterwards. And not in like a disrespectful way, but they said, you know, Beel not playing hurt us.

And what they, I was like, what do you mean? And they said, look, when Beal's out there, it's a guy you can target on the defensive end for the Sons, and all he's doing is taking touches away from KD and from Booker. And again, Bradley Beale, like, forget the contract. We all understand it. He's not a max player and the no trade clause and all that. Bradley Beale's a very good offensive player still. But what they need are guys who fit around their two awesome offensive players.

They're one who's one of the best scores in NBA history and is still. Who's been red hot during the streak, by the way. I think he's had 42 and 38 in the last two games. Yeah, and then Booker obviously has been an all-MBA player. Booker hit the game winner and a really nice win over Milwaukee on Monday night. Yeah, and I know Beale was an all-MBA player in a past, but again, the problem is just he doesn't enhance the two superstars on that team. And I think a pretty strong argument can be made.

And again, has been made going all the way back to the first week of the season by these Mavericks coaches I was talking to, that he kind of takes away from their best players. Well, I would also argue that the worst trade they made was the Kevin Durant trade, which they won one playoff series, you know, in three years and gave up a mountain for him. Boy, when you look back at that, it really, it's,

so it's already been 10 first round picks, right? And then Cam Johnson is still on the nets. I mean, if you start, maybe he won't could trade it. Well, and so listen, because I've made this late career turn where I'm like the mouthpiece for front offices who make massively unpopular trades, I'm going to explain to you that from the Sun's point of view, they didn't break up a finals team. They didn't break up a 64 win team.

They made a move with this team that was just a few games over 500 when Matt Ishpia took over control of that franchise more than midway through that season. They felt like the previous edition of those sons had peaked. So, I mean, that's fine. They traded, they traded seven firsts and McHale Bridges and all this other stuff, and they've won one playoff series. That's a catastrophic failure of a trip. Danzer has not paid the dividends that they. Just to be clear, it wasn't seven first.

It was like, what, four firsts in three swaps. And I said 10 firsts as well. No, right. No, but it was four first. They traded their draft for. Mikhail and Cam Johnson for Kevin Durant. You make that trade because you believe you're going to be a championship level team. And they've won one playoff series.

Like, that's, I'm not saying other teams wouldn't have made the trade. I'm not saying it's, I understand why they did it. But like, if you're talking about the Bradley Beal trade, like the problem here is they bet on Kevin Durant and it didn't work. That's the problem. Kevin Durant's an incredible player. He and Evan Booker are both great players. That was, they thought that was going to be a championship level duo.

and it has not been close to that. All right. So let's ask the same question we do with the Mavericks a few minutes ago. Are we having it? I mean, are we just wasting? Are we just filling the podcast to fill a podcast on a Wednesday afternoon? Tuesday, I guess it'll be Wednesday. But or...

I mean, do I think either of these teams could beat the Oklahoma City Thunder? They are 0-1-2 against the Thunder this year. Do I think the healthy sons, at least, with Kevin Durant and Devin Booker, I think at least can be more competitive in such a series than Dallas can? I would agree. Dallas without Kyrie Irving is not going to be competitive with the Thunder. The Maverick, the Sons could maybe win a game or two. And like the Sons at least have the two stars.

If Katie and Booker sizzle, like I guess it's within the realm of possibility. It would be a monumental upset. But do I think the storyline of Kevin Durant going back to Oklahoma City with the eight-seed son and what might be his final, what would probably be, I would go so far as to say, his final days, final days in a Phoenix uniform? Do I think that's an intriguing storyline? Yeah, because that's the thing. Like what they've got right now, like with respect to Mike Boodenholzer, who's got his sleeves rolled up, trying to save it, trying to patch this sucker up and bring her to the finish line. Is this changing the direction that they're headed? No. I mean, I think the most

interesting thing, if the Sons make the playoffs, the most interesting thing about that is who doesn't make the playoffs because it's going to mean that the clippers the warriors the wolves the lakers denver somebody will have fell into the play in and lost a lost a game or two more those last two games they would have to go really wrong for them to fall in the well i'm not saying no he's talking about he's talking about winning into the into the into the bracket i'm saying for the lakers or for the Nuggets to be a playing team. I'm just saying I'm not I'm not predicting any of them are going to be in the playing or any of them are going to lose in the plan.

I'm just saying if that Phoenix wins two games and plays Oklahoma City in the first round, the two most interesting things will be, A, what you said, Kevin Durant, going back to play his old team, and B, who didn't make the playoffs? Because whoever didn't make the playoffs among those teams, I guess with maybe the exception of the Clippers, because I mean, Delpherson. had a fine season if they're the way it's gone. Any one of those other teams doesn't make it into the playoffs at all, there's probably going to be some sort of consequence from that. That's more what I was saying. I don't think we're going to be talking about a Sun's Thunder

thriller. Maybe I'll be wrong. Listen, there are going to be no fewer than seven teams in the Western Conference that are massively disappointed after the first round. Three who don't make it and four who get balanced. Sure. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, let's look to the other game that's on ESPN on Wednesday night. The Lakers continue their Eastern trip, playing in one of the hottest teams in the East Serena at Indiana on Wednesday. Lakers lost to Orlando.

Terrific game from Palo Bancaro and Franz Wagner, the type of game that those guys were combining for early in this season. and when they were really flying high. We haven't seen as much, but take note, the magic are starting to get their feet underneath. I'm still not sure about how trustworthy their offense is, but we'll keep an eye on that. The Lakers have now lost 7 of 10. LeBron has come back, and they've dropped both games

since he'd come back from their groin injury. And look, I hate to always default to this because I don't know, maybe I'm projecting, but I feel like every time a team is playing well, I look at this, and it's always the case, and every time a team is playing poorly, I look at this, it's always the case. It's all about the defense. In the NBA, your streaks are almost always predicated on your defense. When the Lakers were rolling and getting up to the two seed, it was because

they were defending, maybe better than we thought was possible. Yeah. On this 10-game stretch, regardless of who has been in the lineup, their defense, and like, and I'm watching, I'm watching the people that cover the Lakers and the people that I respect their opinions on the Lakers, and they're focused on the offense because they're seeing some clunkiness there. They're seeing at times where there's still a little bit of a trade-off between who's going to have the ball between Austin Reeves, LeBron, and Luca, because all three of them are best with the ball in their hands. And I agree with that. I think that's got to get ironed out.

However, in this 10-game stretch with the Lakers have lost leverage and slipped out of, into the four-spot, and quite frankly, they're fortunate that their drop here has been softened because Nikola Yokicch has missed five games. The Nuggets have lost ground. The Nuggets lost a game to the Bulls. Shout out to the Bulls going four and two on their. six-game West Coast trip. However, no Aaron Gordon and no Yokic on Monday, but whatever,

Legers have lost 7 to 10. They're 23rd in defense in those 10 games, Bontems. If they don't defend, I don't care how many points Lucas scores, they're not going to be around long. If they do defend because Luca LeBron and Reeves, they could make a run. I really do think it comes down to that in a lot of ways. I do appreciate McBan that the guy whose name on the pod just says,

if you guard people, you're probably going to win games. That's his underlying philosophy on basketball. I agree. Defense is good. It's very surface level. Advanced, advanced stats, like stop people,

you've got a better chance. That's right. He's not. It's true. He's not wrong. No, he's not. No, he's not at all.

I've just, it's just funny. It's just a funny. You probably shouldn't be giving up that kind of offensive performance to the magic. With all due respect. Well, look, they gave up 146 to the Bulls.

Yes. On Saturday, which we talked about, 193, pointers give it up. And the magic, as we've talked about all a year, can hit the broad side of a barn, and they went 15 for 40. So again, I think some of this is some progression to the mean and the Lakers playing this defense, where they're just going to let teams sort of, let mediocre to bad shooters fire away from three.

Well, at some point, guys are going to hit open shots, and they're giving up a lot of open shots, and that's coming back the other way. The other thing is, too, like we've talked about, I think JJ Redick deserves a ton of credit for getting these guys to play as hard. consistently as they have been. But if you have a team with a bunch of guys that can't really play defense, and the way you have to play defense is to play insanely hard all the time, there is a shelf life on how long you can do that,

especially when you've had to play a really difficult stretch of schedule, where they had all these compressed games backed up against each other. They've had some injuries. Like, teams are getting a little more familiar with what the Lakers have been doing. Like, all that's to be said. It's why I was always skeptical that the Lakers, were not actually a team that was a top five defensive team or the best defensive team or whatever their numbers were during that stretch.

Could they be the 12th best defensive team? Sure. Something like that. Maybe they're a fringe of the top 10. Maybe they're 15th. I think we always qualified it by saying if the Lakers can defend like this, dot, dot, dot. Well, no, no. I know.

I'm just saying in general, like, I think they can be a okay defensive team. I don't think they're equipped to be an elite defensive team. I think when they get in the playoffs and everybody's playing insanely hard all the time. I think some of the advantages they've had at that end will start to ebb away a little bit. But look, like you said, the best thing they've got going for them is the way this is all played out. You've had Memphis go off a cliff with injuries. You mentioned Yokic missing time. We're going to talk about the wolves losing again.

They've dropped two or three games. They easily could have or should have won over the last few days. So even though they've gone seven and three in their last 10, they probably should have gone nine and one in their last 10. And when you're in the hole they were in, you have to get every win. So even now, there are three losses back of the – three losses ahead of the Clippers with, what, 11 games to go. Like, they probably should be fine. They have a difficult schedule.

But, you know, we'll see how it goes. And it starts with this game tonight in Indy. I think this is a pretty big game. They can get this win, gets a pretty good team on the road. That will help them, I think, quite a bit. But Indiana, if you're a team that's struggling on defense and giving up a lot of threes, don't want to be playing this Pacers team, which is absolutely on fire. And now is Tyree Salern back.

So they've got, so the Pacers have won seven out of eights coming into this game. And I just want to highlight the play of Aaron Neesmith, who was really proven to be a really valuable player during their run last year in the playoffs. And yes, Seacum and Halliburton get the headlines. And Seahaliburton during this stretch, I think he's averaged, like 12 assists a game. And basically no turnovers, too. Right, you're right. One turnover per game.

12 to 1 assist at turnover ratio. That's pretty good, where I come from. Neesmith, during this stretch of games, he's played in seven of the eight games. He's averaging 16 points shooting 56% from the field and 57% on three. And we know how important he is defensively. And again, you can make fun of me in these eight games. And I know an eight game stretch is tight. It doesn't mean everything.

Guess where the Pacers rank on defense. Going to guess high. Third. Third. Third. Third. Third best defensive team over this eight game stretch in the league. That's how you put wins together.

Sorry, McMahon. Well, and look, Rick Carlisle is. a brilliant basketball mind. Luca Donchish certainly knows that. They had their personality clashes, well documented in The Wonder Boy, Luca Donchich and the curse of greatness. By the way, the word personality clash is doing a lot of work there. You go into pretty good.

No, I go into detail. And, you know, and Jamal Mosley, who you saw his postgame conversation with Luca last night, was, you know, kind of had to save the ship and then led to all kinds of internal drama. Whatever. It's kind of interesting this tour for Luke. go Mosley and then Rick. But point being, Rick is as good as any coach in the league at identifying your defensive weaknesses and exploiting them. And it's a tough game for a struggling defense to get well against because Rick is great at it. Tyre's Halliburton, you know, as an extension of Rick

and just as a brilliant basketball mind and talent himself is great at it. They play fast. They spread you out. They're tough. And look, the Lakers, man, it's amazing. They were that good defensively for as long as they were because they are overcoming major, major personnel challenges. Give JJ Reddit credit for team and give him credit for motivation to get these guys to play as hard as they were because they don't have a real rim protector. You know, Luca has, you know, when he's engaged, he can be an effective scheme defender, help defender, but like obviously he's going to be challenged on the perimeter. LeBron was playing awesome defense, but he's 40 years old now coming back off of groin.

You know, Austin Reeves, wife Luca, is going to have some challenges, although he's not like, you can attack Reeves in the post where you can't Luca. They've got some real massive challenges. And then they had this schedule that was just game after game, after game, after game after game. So it's not a shock. And also, teams have had time to look at the kind of study the scheme, see what they were doing, see the holes in it. And look, don't talk to me about the odds.

offense. They're going to be fine. They will score plenty of points. Luke and Kyrie, after that trade, the year the Mavericks had to tank at the end, scored plenty of points. The problems were on the end. Yeah, no question. And you can build a good defense that protects Luca Donkich. The Mavericks did it last year. It's a real challenge for the Lakers because they don't have Derek Clivey. They don't have Daniel Gafford. They don't have a Derek Jones, Jr. They've got some real challenges from a personnel standpoint that I think they're a transaction cycle or two away from really being able to address. They've got to overcome those challenges to make a run this season. That's true. They have been bailed out because Memphis's injuries have stalled them,

and we talked about this the other day, and Denver has knocked them back. So Houston's opened up a two-and-a-half game lead on the two-seed. Let me just ask you this. If you're, and by the way, the Pacers have opened up a lead on Milwaukee. They've got. gotten to four. If you're the, let me ask you this. If you're the Lakers, which seed do you want? And if you're the Pacers, which seed do you want? Because I think the Pacers probably love the idea of being the four seed, especially looking at Cleveland struggling a little bit. Everybody in the East wants to be the four seed. Nobody wants to be on the Celtic side of the bracket. And they shouldn't be. Like, that's just, that's just the reality of it. Yeah, that's fair.

And what about the Lakers? I don't know that the Lakers are too concerned about seed. They're concerned about, hey, is this 40-year-old, potentially best player ever, healthy? Is he fresh? Is he ready to roll? Is this 26-year-old generational talent who's dealt with some significant injury stuff this year? Is he healthy? Is he fresh? Is he ready to roll? And then they'll take their chances. We mentioned a minute ago that you had some personality stories about Red Carlisle and Luca Donchich, when both were with the Mavericks, now both X-Mavs. Carlisle's doing a really good job coaching this pacer team. They got a two-game lead for the fourth seed.

But some interesting stuff that you had in this book about Carlisle's time when he was coaching Luca McNath. Well, and look, Lucas was certainly a headstrong young star, but I go into detail on this team meeting that they had in Toronto that was literally one week into Lucas' career that cracked the foundation of that relationship. And they were just coming off of a game in Atlanta the night. it before. Luca versus Trey, it's a T&T game.

Dirk and Harrison Barnes are out. The Mavericks go up 26 in the second quarter and blow it. And, you know, Dennis Smith Jr. had a little ankle thing there, but Carlisle basically pulled the plug on him. And Carlisle goes in,

it's like your typical film session in the hotel ballroom team meeting the next day, and Carlisle just starts flipping out. This is the one where he calls out Dennis Smith, Jr. You're jealous of Luke in front of the whole team. Dennis is like, dude, like, we're cool.

Like, I invite him. I play him Fortnite because that's what he likes to do. I'm trying to be, like, friends with him. He's like, it's me, him, and Dorian Finney Smith hanging out all the time. Like, what are you talking about? Luca didn't like that. Carlisle ends up just completely flipping out to the point where DeAndre Jordan, of all people, the guy who left him at the Free Agency altar a few summers before, stands up and says,

coach, you can't talk to us like that. And this was a thing where people thought Rick might lose his job that season. He had like a few days later, he had either an emotional or some people thought maybe he was kind of drumming up the emotion, but an apology in San Antonio at another hotel meeting to the team. And this is when he kind of handed over control of the locker room relations to Jamal Mosley, which, you know, Carlin. I wound up down the road thinking Mosley was gunned for his job, which, you know, you'll get differing opinions on that. But Mosley was a guy who Luca trusted and he loved. And so the relationship was never right there. They did have some success together.

Rick does deserve credit for recognizing the talent for building this offense around him, for giving him the keys for, you know, really help and expedite Lucas assent into a superstar. But it was a relationship that had an expiration date. And frankly, I think Rick didn't get fired. He resigned. Well, he worked, I mean, with all due respect, he went out and got the Pacer's job. You know, like, it's kind of like Calipari. John Calapari didn't get fired from the University of Kentucky, but he knew, you know, he saw what was happening.

So he went out and got the Arkansas job. He believed he had the inside track to the Bucks job. The Bucks were down in that series to the Nets at the time and then came back to win the series. And they won a championship. Oh, my God. If they lost that series, Bud was getting fired. He went from getting fired to becoming a champion coach to getting a gigantic contact extension because of Kevin Durant's toe.

The pastry job was the bird in hand. The bucks were the, you know, pretty bird in the bush. But Rick knew he was going to get another job. He left Dallas on his turn because of that instead of being on the scorching hot seat the next season. And look, Rick and I have butted heads too. And, like, he won't love this book. I don't think he'll be asking for a signed copy.

But I can't believe you've butted heads with somebody. But I also firmly believe that Rick's experience late in his tenure in Dallas have benefited the Indiana Pacers. Because I'm not around the Pacers on a regular basis. Wendy, you're actually around them more than I am. But everything that I hear is that Rick has mellowed. Like he's still Rick. He's still going to be intense. But the relationship stuff, he's done a much better job of that in Indiana.

And look, the bass. basketball stuff, Rick is a brilliant basketball mind. Always has been, always will be. But look, man, it worked out really well for the Pacers. And he's a hell of a different coach than he was the first go round in Indiana, which was cut short because of these same kind of, you know, tense relationship type of issues. But he's doing a damn good job with the Pacers. Look, the Pacers have done, that has been a really good marriage. They were on the balls there. You know what? When they got him. and they built the team up very nicely. They've made a bunch of good, you know, not like change the course of history, automatic Hall of Fame front office moves. Kevin Pitcher's been there a long time. He's laid up made a lot, made a lot of shrewd moves.

They've done a good job. They've, you know, they're a good organization. They have not proven to be a championship organization. One massive one, flipping some bonus for Halliburton. Right. That changed the course of the franchise. franchise. And that was also like, look, the Mavericks tried to trade Brunson 18 and 31 for a chance to draft Halliburton. Bob Volgaeris, who him and Rick did work well together, they butted

heads too. And Bob says some unflattering things about Rick in the book. But Bob Volgaer's had Halliburton's number one player in that class. And Rick bought into that. And when Rick goes to Indiana, he found a way to finally get Halliburton. Look, the Pacers have had some really good teams over the last 30 years. And they've had some unfortunate luck. They ran into Georgia. They ran into LeBron. When the door opened a little bit, when LeBron went west, Oladipo's knee collapsed. Paul George wanted out, you know, like,

but they're a very good organization, and Carlisle is doing a very good job there. They're not going to win the championship this year, but I wouldn't want to play them in the playoffs. And they've got a lot of contracts on their books that are good contracts that a lot of they could do some things with. They're limited by, they do not have an owner that is going to,

you know, be a luxury taxpayer significantly. So they have to make decisions based on money, but... They also very interestingly have a large hole at center on their roster this summer because Miles Turner is going to be a free agent. They don't really have another center on the roster at all at this point. Thomas Bryant is a minimum signing they got during the year or train. They just signed another, they signed another center two days ago. They keep signing these third centers, Tony Graham.

Unfortunately, they've had major injury issues with the depth there. Yeah. Well, the thing about it is, you know, You know, Miles Turner is a free agent. He's going to command significant money, and it's unclear about whether or not they can afford what his price is going to be. And I say afford it. I mean, there's just a limit as to what the Pacers can pay.

And because Tyrese Halliburton hit the Supermax, you know, I mean, they're very happy to pay Tyrese Halliburton, the Supermax. They're very happy to have him. But he hasn't been a Supermax player all this season, you know, because of injuries. And the problem, too, they also spent, they got $25 million on the books and OB Topping in T.J. McConnell. And like if you're not going to be a luxury tax team, you cannot be making contract mistakes like that, especially on. I don't know if it's a contract mistake. I just, you know, it's not, it's a bad contract for a guy that they're paying him over the mid-level for a guy that's a ninth guy who's not a center. It's just not a good deal.

We have talked about how Boston could face just some tough decisions, they just can't afford to keep this roster together. And depending on how the season goes, depending on what the new ownership wants, that it's possible if the Celtics could have to, you know, lose some salary over the next six, seven months. The Pacers are team in the same boat, especially if they want to keep Miles Turner, which I believe they do. Well, they've got to have somebody playing center. If that's more the question is like they're going to do something this summer to have a center on the roster,

whether it's Miles Turner or something else, and they're going to have to make some moves to do it. I think they very much want to keep Miles Turner. Yeah. McMahon, how many radio shows and podcasts do you have to do this week? I get to do a whole bunch of it. It is a, it is a, this is not the message that Jackson and I were receiving before the podcast began for a guy. To be invited on to all of these phenomenal platforms.

I must have to do one. Our buddy Yovam Buhas, a big time baller out there in the, with the Lakers fan base, Los Angeles. Yes, let me just offer you some marketing advice. Lean into Luca the Laker. Do they have a lot of fans around the world? They might. They might have some fans, you know.

I just know here in Omaha, people ask me more about the Lakers than anything. Lakers and Celtics. I don't get a lot of questions about the Pacers. Yeah, no, him getting traded to the Lakers of all places was not an awful marketing opportunity for, you know, book sales. All right. We'll save up your hot takes for us when you come back later this week. All right.

Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you for watching, listening to the HOOP collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Appreciate you, boys, and Adios amigos.