Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Analyzing Giannis’ Possible Destinations + Time For Change For Knicks & Cavs? + OKC Trade Rumor?

Episode Date: January 30, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Bobby Marks and Kevin Pelton to discuss the four teams that have expressed the most interest in Giannis including what each one can offer. Plus, the guys talk if New York should get involved and the ways the Knicks could possibly put together a deal. Then, we talk if it is time for the Cavs to make some changes before breaking down some of the more interesting free agents for 2027. Finally, we explain why the Thunder have been mentioned in some trade rumors. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Thursday afternoon or in morning in some cases. Joining us from Naples, Florida, before I think he's going to be joining me in L.A. for a long stretch is our front office man, Bobby Marks.

Hello, Brian, and a very happy birthday to you, my friend. Oh, yes. I'm celebrating it with a podcast. What with you other way? I'm celebrating my gift to myself is not having Bontem's McMahon. Joining us from Seattle, the machine, Kevin Peltman. Happy birthday, Brian. I think we'll spare you the scene of happy birthday from Bobby. Thank you very much. Just consider it done. Bobby, before we go on, I was supposed to mention this last time you're on and I just forgot it was my fault. You have got something interesting happening and I want to promote it right now coming up over All Star Week in L.A. Well, you're not the only one who forgets. Every time I do a YouTube video, I'm supposed to mention it in.

And I think I'm 0 for 5. So at least we're kind of getting it in right before we get going in here. Yeah, no, that's why you said we're going to probably see each other for a while. I am in besides the trade deadline next week, I will be in L.A. The following week during All-Star Week, we were running sports business classroom, the same program that we did in Las Vegas during the summer, a week of intensive experiences, learning everything from salary cap to scouting video analytics. media broadcasting agent negotiations here, but we have a full week of curriculum right in downtown

L.A. You've done this in Vegas for a couple years. Have you had any graduates go on to NBA jobs? I have. I've actually had some graduates also. I had a real quick, a lady two years ago who was actually a district attorney in Dallas who was thinking of making a career change. And she did. She wound to become an agent and she got certified and I helped her with the process. And now she represents college football players in the portal. And the funny story is that two weeks ago she reached out to me because she had three players

who were going through the portal and wanted to see if somehow ESPN could publicize it. And I reached out to Pete Thamble who covered does college football. And I didn't even realize we have our own portal guy. So Max Olson, who does everything from the college football portal and transfers, we connected her with her

and she was able to get a little publicity, here. But yeah, we've got a really good turnout of people that eventually turn out to go out and get a job in college or pros or if you want to make a career change. And what's the website? Sportsbusinessclassroom.com. Okay. Easy enough. There you go. We have an NBA player in the portal unofficially. I don't know. I keep waiting for that notification of transfer to pop through and it still isn't there.

We went over at pretty much length with Bob Thompson McMahon when this came out. out on Wednesday. But I do want to flush a couple of things out. Bobby, I need your expertise here. So in studying the situations, you know, I think one of the things we've talked about is what Golden State can offer. And since we have an expert here, Golden State has all of their draft picks. So they can offer four first-round picks, unprotected, if they wanted for Janus or anybody else. Or they could offer less. The one, real quick, the one in 30 is they can, it's basically they're sending half of it. So it's basically three and three quarters because 21 to 30 goes to the Wizards. But it actually, the better part would go to another team because it would be unprotected one to 20.

Okay. So the bucks can only accept so many swaps. Is that correct? Yeah, they've basically have remorgeted swaps on a lot of different things. They owe Portland swaps in 28 and 30. from the Lillard trade. They owe Washington. There's some reswaps from the Middleton Kuzma trade.

That was done last offseason. The last deadline here. So, yeah, it's the ability to reswap and swap again. It basically kind of loses its value there. Right. So even if you wanted to, if Golden State or somebody else wanted to give more swaps, I don't know why they would, they're limited in how many swaps they can take because they've already swapped some of their picks.

Well, I guess technically you could do it, but you're basically not getting really the much, the value of it if you're looking at it from, you know, from, you know, if Golden, you know, basically, basically it's going to be a lot of how the language would be in there. Potentially more valuable from Milwaukee's standpoint, because if they're at the bottom of the line in terms of swaps now,

it makes it more likely that that pick is going to be very low and more likely that Golden State's pick would be higher, you know, better in the draft. draft and therefore potentially more valuable for them. There is an asterisk attached to the swaps. This is what we're doing here. I'm trying to clarify. Also, because we went over your chart, the last couple of podcasts, where we talked about

tradable first round picks. Now I'd like to talk about the Miami Heat. Miami Heat and the Gold State Warriors, I believe, are two important possible trade partners here. Again, I don't know if Milwaukee will actually make a trade, but I think those are two of the leading options. Miami is at a disadvantage, Bobby, because they owe two first-round picks, one I believe to Oklahoma City, and one they owe to Charlotte, the relatively infamous pick that they gave for Terry Rozier, when they were not aware that Terry Rozier was under investigation for point shaving or whatever you want to call that match fixing. It has been explained to me that if the Miami Heat could somehow acquire a 2007 first round pick, any of those picks, that it could change the hand that they're holding. Are you able to explain that?

Yeah. I mean, so real quick, so they already sent that Oklahoma City first that got conveyed at last year's draft. So right now, their outstanding first is the is the Charlotte first, which is top 14 protected in 2007. It becomes unprotected in 2027. It becomes unprotected in 20. if it's not conveyed from the prior year. So right now you're looking at it from a trade standpoint, because you can't trade picks in back-to-back years. You're looking at 2030 and 2032 as far as the most they can send out in a deal. Now, as you said, the ability to acquire a 2027 to add to your allotment of picks would certainly be the goal if you're the heat. And I think just talking to teams and canvassing the league,

it feels like that's a little bit of a theme. if Milwaukee is like, well, we like your player, but can you turn him into something else, right? Can you turn him into multiple first tier? And that's where that 27 first would come into play if Miami's able to do that. I think the other thing too is, which is interesting, if this gets into,

if there's no deal and we get into the off season, teams begin to have more picks available to trade in a deal because then if you're Miami, you could trade the rights to, year pick in this year's draft. And then we have this, I don't want to complicate everyone, the seven year rule, which is basically now we're looking at it from 2027 to 23. It basically, sometimes it's like a multiplier. So it doesn't apply to every team, but then it would give Miami, I think, maybe potentially have four picks that they could trade in a deal there. Right. So if Miami,

long story short, today they could trade two. But if they wait, they could trade four. And if they to the summer. And if they make a deal for a 27 pick they could trade for? Yeah, they could, if they, if they, if they can't trade the 27 pick. They have to hold on. Well, it's either it's, um, they can't trade 27 because that's, that's going to Charlotte right now of their own. Right. But if they got another 27 first round pick, they could check the box that they have a 27 first round pick. And that would unlock 28, 20, 20, 26 and 28, right? So they could go from two to four. It just gives you a lot more flexibility as far as to be able to do things. And I would just say, I realize that this is all very complicated, but the reason I wanted these guys on here is they lead the league in explaining complicated stuff.

And, you know, like, Bobby, I don't know, I feel like in talking to the league the last couple, and really, like, Sespiaz, the last couple of months, there's been an expectation that Yannis would be available and the bucks would take offers, whether it was at the deadline or in the summer. And there were decisions being made last summer, Peltin, where teams were holding their assets to save for a player like Yanis, if not Janus himself. And so I think that there's a, Bobby, there's going to be a lot of teams. You know, one thing I'm going to say here, and Bobby, maybe you can explain this.

But the word offer is a tough thing for those of us in his reporters right now. Because that's what the fans, and frankly, what's why our editors want? The editors are like, well, what teams have made offers? You know, tell us the teams that have made offers for Janus. And this is where we sort of squirm in our seat and we're like, well, sound like Bill Clinton. It depends on what the definition of the word is, is. Because offer is a very heavily loaded word. Can you explain that, Bobby?

And can you explain if you were in a front office that was interested in Janus, what the process would be when you would call John Horace and the Bucks on this? Yeah, I mean, that's a good point. I mean, I think that's a big reason why we, put out the Yannis Trade Guide, we basically let the readers pick what could be offered. Like we basically just said, here are the 29 teams and here are the 11 teams that can offer the most in a deal here. I think if you are, let's reverse it a little bit here. I think if you're in Milwaukee, you're certainly looking at the superstar checklist of players. Kevin can probably

talk about it too a lot more like draft equity, controllable contracts, expirings or movable style. I call it movable style. So if you're golden state, is that like Jimmy Butler, who you can maybe flip again next deadline. I do think when you are engaging, just because it's happened before when I was in New Jersey slash Brooklyn with whether it be Carmel Anthony or Dwight Howard or, I mean, Darren Williams was a little bit different, you know, big trades like that. You're, A, you're getting a sense as far as what it will take, right? You're kind of like, hey, what are you guys looking for?

And they'll, you know, John will probably say, he'll shoot for the moon. and he'll say, you know, if it's, you know, Team A, hey, we're looking for four unprotected first. We're looking for two young players. We're looking for expiring contracts. I don't like that player on your roster. Can you turn them into something else? So there is a little bit of a dance,

a little bit of a stare down here as far as what we'll go through. And as you said, we're only a week away. In saying this, and then I'll let KP jump in, I do think there is a little more sense of urgency regarding getting something done, at least from, you know, if you're Janus and if you're a team acquiring him, because then we take him to play the extension rules.

He's eligible in October to sign an extension. So if he's traded now, he's still eligible in October. If we wait until July, that extension, although he could still do it, but he can't extend for the maximum amount until January. So there is a little bit more of like, like we'd rather get something done now,

if you're a team interested or even if you're in, you know, if you're in Janus's camp there. So I think the first thing to go back to what Brian was saying in the first place and then what Bobby was building on that. Like, you know, there's been so much discussion about why have there been so few trades where we've only seen the one since, you know, the summer period all season. And typically we'd see, you know, a handful by this point in the NBA calendar. And Janus is probably a factor in that because if you're one of these teams that thinks you had shot at, honest, or then because of the tentacles of that trade potentially going out in the league and involving all these other teams, you know, because what you're talking about of turn your player into something from a third team, you know, Brian used to always say a three-team trade

is a no-team trade. Now a two-team trade is a no-team trade. That's true. I've had to kind of retire that. Yeah. Yeah. So it's probably holding up the entire market to a degree, especially because, you know, to Bobby's point about the checklist, there's not a lot of teams that satisfy all those criteria with just the one team. You know, Houston could do it. San Antonio could do it. Those are the teams that have the combination. Do you not think Golden State qualifies? Do you not think that they would have, you know, do you include Jonathan Cominga as an attractive young player? I mean, do you include Brandon Pajewski? Like, does that, do those guys qualify? I mean, Pajemski is from Milwaukee. I mean, does he qualify? He's not kind of, you know, he's not the level of Yomkelete you're probably first asking for. Right. Right. He's not VJ. Edgecombe. I mean, I think Golden State has the clearest path to a deal for the reasons that you're saying.

The way I've described it is in my view, and correct me if you think I'm wrong, Bobby. Golden State has the best pathway in a two-team deal. Yeah. And it's similar to like, I know Desmond Bain is not in the criteria of Janus, but Orlando had the best pathway to get Desmond Bain because of, you know, that was the, I'm the, amount of picks that were traded, there were no other teams involved. That was a two team. We'll trade you two players for one. Here's all the picks. The money matches when you look at it. And even if you wanted to expand this trade, which if it ever does come to fruition, you can add more to it, whether it be you could add Kaming it to it. You can add whatever money

coming back in Milwaukee, whether it be Portis or Kuzma or anything like that. But I do think, like, you know, Shams had mentioned there was four teams. that were aggressively interested, which included Golden State, Miami, Minnesota, and New York. I do think out of the four teams, like Golden State's the cleanest, right? Like they're like they have two injured players. And I know Aonis is hurt compared to the other three teams and maybe maybe put Miami a little bit out of the equation. Doing a deal with New York or Minnesota, like those teams are going to basically have

to trade two or three core players out of their group and then have to wait until maybe mid-March for Janus to come back. So I do think it's, as you said, Brian, I think Golden State is probably more direct. It's cleaner. Maybe it's not all three boxes. Maybe it's two and a half of the boxes of what you're looking for. You know, when you think about Minnesota,

I think Shams, you know, Shams saying that it was very interesting. Be honest, it has been out there that there is interest there from Minnesota and from Janus. I think that's related to Ant. You don't hear too often about a star player, saying, boy, Minnesota's on my list, whether they're fourth on my list or eighth, this doesn't happen very often.

He's on the list as possible. I will say that it kind of reminds me of last year when Minnesota was in the second apron and they had all of these restrictions and they were trying to trade for Kevin Durant. The connection there being the, again, Ann Edwards and Kevin Durant's connection. And they were talking to Phoenix in, you know, also in the second apron. and they're trying to make this trade, and they're, you know, they're hunting down avenues to try to make this trade. And I respect Minnesota for doing it. There was interest, but I just, I didn't see a pathway for it to get done and it didn't get done.

I would never put anything past, you know, Tim Connolly, he's made several major, huge acquisitions in his tenure. I think it'd be pretty hard to beat the other offers. I don't know how you feel about that, Pelton, but I feel like that, you know, just, you know, and discussing Minnesota real quick. Yeah, we're building, you know, Zach Cram and I fake Janice trades for Bobby to evaluate it. And Minnesota is one of the teams I got assigned. And that's the challenge. So it is, I think, a little different because, you know, the value proposition last year with Durant, I think was reasonable from Minnesota's standpoint. When you look at what he ended up eventually getting traded for to Houston, like they couldn't offer the Phoenix's own lottery pick that ended up number 10 as part of it. but the players who were going back is part of that deal, you know, would have been more helpful to Phoenix in the short term than, I mean, obviously Dylan Brooks has worked out great for them. Jaylen Green has barely played at all this season.

So that part of it, I think they could have worked out. It was more of the financial piece. Here it's the, how do you create the value with very limited picks to trade much more so even than Miami? And the young talent recent first round picks that they have on the roster other than Yon Barron J. I mean, it's been a couple of years. And Rob Dealingham and Terran Shannon Jr. haven't taken advantage of their opportunities to crack into the Minnesota rotation. So as you're considering them is Milwaukee, I don't think they have the valid.

you that those equivalent draft picks would have had where they were taken two years ago. Right. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

So let's discuss New York real quick. I think New York has to ask themselves a basic question, Bobby. Are we good enough? You know,

they had a very nice win Wednesday, by the way, against Toronto in Toronto, despite missing a couple of key

players. Carl Towns, who's been under a little bit of fire, people have been keeping an I-Nus plus minus and whatnot. Carl had 22 rebounds in that game. New York's won four in a row after losing

nine of 11. But, you know, this is a team that, you know, they had a shot at Janus last summer. There was some level of negotiation between the Bucks and the Nix. Whether or not the Bucks would actually gone through with it, we'll never know. But the NICs were somewhat limited because they couldn't offer McHale Bridges in that trade because he had just signed a contract. But having said that, I think it's a key question that New York has to think about, whether it's for Yannis or anybody else, are they good enough? And they're a team who, as you guys talked about earlier, if you were going to make an offer for Janus, it's tough for them to do it because they've only got one first to trade and it's not even a guaranteed first. It might not even, probably won't even

convey. So they would probably have to get a third or fourth team involved to improve their offer. But before they even go down into the realm, I mean, there's pathways. I've had discussions with executives about the pathways that New York could go down, you know, in sample three-team. trades that would deliver draft picks and intriguing prospects and quality players to Milwaukee. It can be done. The question is, should New York do it? And, you know, so Bobby, you know, this is something I think that the Knicks have probably got to ask themselves going into this and anything else they might want to do at the deadline. Yeah. I mean, it's, I know there was higher expectations now compared to 2011, but they had a pretty good team and they went out and traded most

So there are a lot of good players and picks and stuff when they went out and got Carmelo. And it's totally, you know, 14 or 15 years later. But those, it's the in-season trades when you're, you know, when you're taking three or four players off your roster and doing that. I think with New York, are they good enough? I think what we've seen of late, you know, the Toronto game on Wednesday, certainly most of that Philly game on Saturday. I think you have to be somewhat comfortable as far as where they're playing right now. They've got some winnable games coming up right now, but it is a risk, a team that's, I guess, built to win now.

And you say, yeah, you can get Janus and you can, you know, accelerate that here. But I think the big question is like, you know, certainly it would be towns, I would have think, right? And then what other pieces? Is it bridges? Is it Annanobi? I think, like, you know, when we're talking about expanding it to two or three or four teams,

if you're Milwaukee or say, what a minute, what does Ananoi do for us? And then I'll be like, wait a minute, I'll call Portland and try to get our picks back, right? There's like all these different mechanisms here as far as how you, this thing would basically get built out. But for New York, I just think, man, it is a risk. I know I get the appeal of Janus and I get the appeal of how great he is. But I do think it's a risk. This is, as you mentioned it, Brian and Charlie Kevin, like this is a perfect offseason trade, right?

Like, this is what you want to do in the offseason. You don't want to do this on February 5th and you've got 30. games left in the season. Yeah, it makes me wonder if some of these teams, like we sort of alluded to to this with Miami, you know, maybe they rectify it by getting that 27 first and then, you know, it allows them to trade two extra having one more pick. But some of these teams like, you almost want to run out the clock here and try to force this to the off season because it's more favorable from that standpoint. Sort of on the bigger picture question in the Knicks, are they good enough? You know, there was a discussion after the Dallas loss about, you know, they would drop them to

two and nine in their previous 11 games. And you were mentioning the opponent shooting against them. And McMahon sort of pooh-pooded it and dismissed that by, you know, saying that the effort wasn't good enough when he was watching. And I was all prepared to come on this podcast and say, oh, you know, shot variance, randomness in small samples, et cetera, et cetera. It actually isn't the case for the Knicks. Like their shot quality was wildly different in that stretch.

If you look at the through December 29th, when things are sort of riding high, they'd won the NBA Cup or closing in on Detroit for first in the East, they were eighth in offense, eighth in defense and shot quality. And that is good enough. That can get you to the finals, especially in combination with how good their offensive rebounding is. Do you think, by the way, when Jim Dolan did that radio interview and said, we can, we should win the East and we can win the finals, that he was using the shot quality metrics. I don't know how much he's digging into really growing into the genius IQ. But the, the, the, the, stretch where they went two and nine,

14th on offense, 24th on defense and shot quality. So they legitimately were, you know, from a process standpoint, playing much worse. And then they've bets back the last four games, second on offense, third in defense. So, you know, I think that's, that's sort of a little more difficult for me to evaluate

than if it had been a cleaner story of, oh, this is just opponents. We're making a bunch of threes against us. I think if you're a Knicks fan, you're like, just give me honest, right? You've watched this team, you know, you just like just give me Janus like that you know beyond the the metrics of it um and you know I have the I have to take a different data point which is what um which is their actions their actions last summer were that they weren't aggressive about it and the other thing is there's two ends of this contract so talked about Janus's ability to sign an extension and I would think Bobby if you were going to offer an enormous amount of draft capital or young players or whatever you would do that you would want to didn't have a pretty good idea that Janus was going to take your extension. And that extension,

I believe, can be four years and what, 270, something like that? 275. Actually, if you actually, you know, I know it's just semantics here. If you actually, if he opted in and then extend it for three years, he probably can make another million dollars. So, I mean, it's kind of like, pick whatever one you want to do. Well, one thing I think I know about Janus is that he does consider the money. The money is not just insignificant to him. He, talks about it. You know, that's one of the things like, you know, if you're in one of the Texas teams, you can say, hey, state income tax. But it's also a consideration for the team. You know, the team giving him $275 million for a guy who's 31 years old who has having calf problems.

I think most teams would say yes, but I'm not sure everybody would. In fact, I know that. There's one team I talked to who would be able to put a package together, a pretty compelling package. and they said, we're just not crazy about that contract. With our other options that we can do, just don't know if we want to commit to $2.75 to them. And you can't trade all that stuff if you're not that committed to him. So that's a thing, too. Like if you're looking at New York,

and I'm not saying this is what New York is thinking, but, you know, when they didn't do that, didn't very aggressively go after him when they had an exclusive window to use Shams' words last summer, that was an indication of what they thought about their team and what they thought about Janus. And, you know, it's what Jim Dolan talked about on that Craig Carton interview. He said, I've made that, he goes, we've gotten into trouble in the past when I've chased the shiny object.

And I have, I've abandoned our plan. Well, this would be an abandoning of their plan. But if you're a Knicks fan and you've watched the team struggle for the last month, you'd say, well, you could have a plan up one side and down the other. If the team's not good enough, the team's not good enough. So this is the paradox that a team like the Knicks are in right now, especially with Janus. you know, we know that Janus has some interest. I don't know if Janice has a list. I don't know if there's a list.

If, you know, if there's one, two, three, four or whatever. But the Knicks are at what, you know, what the smart people say in inflection point here. And they're going to, you know, it's not, it's not simple. It's not as simple as we either trade form or not because they are in a heavy competition to acquire him. But, you know, the Knicks are sitting at a crucial crossroads because, you know, it's very possible that they may. not have another opportunity to trade for a player like this, and they may not have a group that is good enough to win the East, much less the whole thing. And that's something that I think they're probably thinking pretty hard about. And I think actually you probably been thinking hard about

for a while, not just in the last, you know, 36 hours. The other team I want to ask about are the calves. Pellton, the Cavs of won seven their last eight. They're dealing with some injury issues as they've dealt with all year. Evan Mowley is now out probably until after the All-Star break or close to they're about to go on their longest trip of the year, a West Coast swing without Darius Garland. We're not sure when he's back yet and without Evan Mobley, so they could take some hits, but they have played pretty well over the last month, but they've underachieved on the season. And Donovan Mitchell is contract extension eligible this summer. He's got one year left on his contract, and he's not indicated anything that he wouldn't want to be there.

However, this is one of those uncomfortable situations where you have to check in with your star player. So let me ask you this, because I don't think the calves, I mean, the Cavs, I think, could try to get into the Janus sweepstakes. They don't have the draft picks to do it. And if you're trading pieces, you're talking about breaking up your core. But do the Cavs have a team right now that's good enough as they look forward? Yeah, and to take that last part first, perhaps the most challenging part of it is that Cleveland is in the situation we were talking about with Minnesota a year ago, where just even to be able to legally make a trade for Janus, they have to get out of the second apron, and they're 22 million into it.

So that's a lot of salary going elsewhere. I don't think they're good enough to feel confident in their chances to win the East. I think they're better than they have looked at this season. You know, our BPI model is still relatively high on them, gives them about an 80% chance of ending up with home court advantage in the first round of the playoffs. And in their case, I do think, you know,

sort of the shot quality data tells the story that they are going to, you know, improve a little bit over the rest of the season, where that the bounce back we've seen lately was to a degree inevitable in terms of the shooting luck that they've had. By the way, I was trying to shell shot quality. You know, I do some Cleveland media every week, and I was trying to, two, three weeks ago, I was trying to sell the shot quality metric and the fans didn't want to hear it. They rarely do, yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, unless it's like, well, we know this team is just getting unluck.

and is better than everyone else thinks. You know, the outsiders, the national media doesn't know about this, but we do. That's maybe the sale point. But, yeah, the genius IQ, Chuck Holding metric, they've had the fifth worst shooting look on attempts outside the paint. And that's even though during this winning straight opponents are shooting just 27% on three. Yeah, it's actually swung back around this last eight games. The Cavs were like number three in the league and three point percentage. They're doing some things well.

They're defending better. They're rebounding better. But the thing that's been the difference is they've been making some three. after they didn't make them slowly for weeks, months. But overall, their fourth on offense this year, 13th on defense, and I don't think that's quite a good enough, you know, it's in the ballpark, but I don't think it's quite good enough to feel good about my chances to win the east, especially when last year when they didn't, and, you know,

we're partially due to injuries exposed to a bit in the playoffs. We're first in the regular season and shot quality on offense and seventh on defense. Yeah, Bobby, they can look you in the eye and say, well, our team hasn't been healthy and say, you know, we're going to get our team healthy and then we'll be good enough. can't dispute that other than the fact I can say, well, you've played 50 games. Your team hasn't been healthy for any of them. So why do you think they're going to be? But if your team, you don't think is good enough, and it's in the second apron and Donovan Mitchell's do a contract extension and your trade deadline is in seven days, what do you do? Yeah. I mean, I think there's

part of you that is, I think there's two ways to look at it. There's part of you that we're already committed to this group, right? Like, we're going to see it through and then we're going to figure out if we have to move off money in the offseason, we can we can do that here. I think the other part is can you start getting your books in order right now? But that takes into effect like, I mean, we've, we've seen Jalen Tyson basically grow in front of our eyes here as far as a really a player that can help this team. And then a year ago, you traded for DeAndre Hunter, right? So like, but that's still a $22, $23 million player that, you know, you're getting, you know,

if you're trying to move, but you're also losing a piece maybe off your bank. So it's like if you're already committed to paying, I don't know, $165 million in a luxury tax this year and another 200 plus in salary, is it better off just kind of seeing it through and then getting to the offseason here where it's not just Cleveland or, you know, is going to have a lot of uncomfortable decisions. I mean, we'll get to the office. There's so many players who are extension eligible this offseason here that could be free agents in 2007. And the list is besides Mitchell and Cleveland, there's a lot of. long list of players here. I, for one, I think, I don't know if you're ever going to be whole this year, right? So meaning whole is, you know, not Mowgli because he'll be back, but like the Struis injury, right?

Like we've been kind of waiting for him and it feels like every time we get an injury report, it's like another four weeks or five weeks here. You've had Merrill out for a bit here. You've had, you know, you're trying to salute your garland you mentioned here. Is it good enough to get where they are right now? I'm more encouraged, as Kevin has talked about, I thought there was a sense of urgency with this group that they hadn't shown before here.

But for me, I think I'm probably riding this group to the end, and then I'm going to figure out in the offseason here. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Here are the 2027 potential free agents. How many of these guys actually get to free agency or opt out of their contracts? All right, I'll say Steph Curry. He's never playing anywhere besides Golden State,

but his contract will be up. Anthony Davis can opt out of $62 million. Will he do that? I would say unlikely unless he's resigning exactly where he's at, whether that's Dallas or somewhere else. Janice, I think it's likely he signs an extension wherever he gets traded. Jimmy Butler coming off an ACL. Yokic, now there's an interesting one. You know, the nuggets, you know, the nuggets are in the same situation as the calves are. Like they're going to have a, you know, they're going to have to go to Yokch this summer. Now, they probably feel a lot, they feel better about their team right now than the calves do. and also Yokic is, you know, won a championship and three MVP's there. But, you know, he's on the list. Carl Towns has a $60 million player option.

Is he opting out of that? I would say unlikely unless he's to resign. Paul George, again, player option for over $50 million. I don't think so. But, you know, Donovan Mitchell, player option for $58 million or something like that. Probably opting out. Is it to resign in Cleveland or is it to go somewhere else? So that's, you know, or do the calves feel some pressure?

That's to be determined. Kauai Leonard, totally unrestricted. I don't even know what you want to say about that. Kevin Durant has a player option. Maybe ups out of it, maybe he doesn't. James Harden will be a free agent. Rudy Gobert can opt out of $38 million, I would say unlikely. Michael Porter Jr.

Julius Randall has a player option. The way Julius Randall is playing right now, I think that's something that could be very interesting in a couple of years. And here's an interesting name, Jonathan Caminga. Just kidding. But he can't. Here's an interesting name. Isaiah Hartenstein.

He's got a team option next year for $29 million. So Bobby, I've actually heard the Oklahoma City Thunder's name and some trade chatter. And you look at this team and you say, wait a minute, this team is 66 wins or whatever they had last year, champions. You know, when they've been healthy this year, they've been unstoppable. Why would the Oklahoma City Thunder's name be out there? And why would the Oklahoma City Thunder's name be out there potentially looking at centers? Now, if San Presti was on this podcast, which that would be fascinating, wouldn't it? He would go on for three to seven hours.

Are you giving him the true serum before the podcast? No, but, you know, in all honesty, like Sam, he can talk for hours and hours and hours about not even his team about stuff. He does a couple times the year in front of the media. He would say your information is wrong. We don't talk about rumors and speculation. So I'm talking about a rumor and speculation with Oklahoma City. Maybe they don't do anything, Bobby, but if the Thunder were out there armed with an enormous amount of draft capital and a bunch of young players, what would they be looking to do? Yeah, they're in our big trade guy. They're in the Don't Call Us, we'll call you column.

Okay. Yeah, I'm sure that's, I'm sure that's probably true. Them in, there's a San Antonio's in there with them too, right? So it's, listen, I think we all know what they have in picks. Eventually, they're going to have a decision this offseason with Dort and Hartenstein, who have team options. along with, I think Kenrick Williams also. They've been besieged with injuries. I mean, like, they have been hit hard with this group here. And, you know, as a result, have struggled a bit, you know, losing a couple of games. I think you're missing six, I don't know where they are exactly for this moment,

but earlier this week, I think they were missing six rotation players. Yes. So I think you kind of take that into equation. I do think, listen, I went back and when they made that Gordon Hayward trade and you know, Sam gave a, you know, lengthy response about in-season trades, right, as far as the, you know, kind of the challenges, as far as they built to go out and do that and everything. I think if you're Oklahoma City and you're kind of look, you're, yeah, he pretty much said, I don't think we would do that again. That's pretty much what he said, right?

But I do think you have, I think you do have an obligation if they were, I don't even know, 50 and 5 right now, you know, like, yeah, like Golden State was humming those years. Like you're probably not at least looking, you know, as far as, you know, we're, I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, where they are with their roster, and I know injuries play a role, but I do think you have to look at what, is there something out there that can only, not only help us this year, but also help us in the future here. And as you mentioned, whether it be, you know, center, whether it be another wing on this, on this group here, I think you have, I do think you have the obligation to do that. The center piece of it is interesting because, you know, you guys highlighted on the

pod after the most recent game against San Antonio, what a big difference, just having big Jalen Williams, made for them in that game is, you know, options. Big Jalen Williams, I like it. Yeah, you know. He's not that much bigger than, than little Jalen Williams. I think he's J. Will, but I can't, if I can't keep that straight, I assume the listener game. Again, I don't think Big J.L. Williams is bigger, that much bigger. He is bigger, but not that much. But the way, the way I always thought about it is J. Will is the two L's, so he's, that's tall.

So J. Will is the big and J. Dub is the wing. That's how I always, now I just know it, but, you know, when I was learning it. He made a difference just in terms of having some size to throw at Janus and to kind of lean at, or Janice, to Wembe to lean on him a little bit. Well, maybe they might need it for Janus too. Who knows? Yes, that is plausibly the case. So I can see where that might be a consideration.

And to your point, if it's somebody who can get on sort of a controlled contract, you know, Hartnstein, they sort of paid rather handsomely the first two years knowing that they weren't going to have luxury tax issues in order to get that team option on the third year and maintain the flexibility. So if you're thinking we need to decline that team option, but we still want someone in that role, maybe it could make sense. But it's interesting because, you know, when they made that trade for he were a couple years ago at the deadline, it actually like it didn't work out for them at the time. It sneaky just worked out as a salary dump that was part of the reason that they created the clap space that allowed

them to then sign Isaiah Hartenstein in free agency. But this year, there's not kind of that same option in terms of, you know, if you look at guys who are on the roster who they don't consider part of their future, I think Usman Jang would be the only guy that you

sort of really look at in that vein, and he's only making, you know, 6.7 million. They're close to the luxury tax. There's a pretty limited band unless they're willing to trade, you know, Kenrich Williams, who's been a valuable veteran for them, one of their other young guys.

It's your oldest player. It's either him or Caruso or their oldest player, I think. Right. Yeah, well, there's a reason why they used a first-round pick on a center last year because they knew that this was going to be a challenge and that they knew that they had to develop that. And, you know, I mean, I'm sure that they will be, you know, I think one thing about, you know, the Thunder is they have,

Thomas Sorber is who they drafted with. the 15th pick last year, which I can't remember whose pick that was. Was that the Clippers pick? Unfortunately, he tore his ACL. I think he tore his ACL. That might have been that yeah, Miami. Oh, the heat pick. Okay, right. All right. Yeah, there's, you know, there's a reason why they drafted a big man there because they know that they, you know, they need to sort of potentially restock there. So. But it is been interesting, Brian, though, because you look back, you look at how this roster is constructed. There's only been two players on his team they've traded for, you know, like as far as like you know i know shay of course and caruso and then kenrick williams was a

wow i didn't remember that it's it's not in the DNA right as far as how they've been able to do it yeah yeah i mean you know like there the thunder are always doing something and there's always a methodology to it and a lot of times i can't always figure it out but i always but i do always respect it. So, and, you know, they could be misdirecting. They could be setting up something for later in the summer. They could be just evaluating the value of their players, which, you know, is always important. But, yeah, so, you know, the Thunder have sort of just been installed as the favorites.

But, you know, there have been some concerns over this last few weeks, because, you know, mostly because of injuries. But they haven't quite been at top of their game for quite some time. now. So I assure you the Thunder will not just assume everything will be fine. I'm sure they believe that. I'm sure that they're, you know, that they will work towards it. And, you know, I would still, you know, plan on them being the favorites come to playoffs. But I promise you that Sam Presti and his group is investigating all angles, because that is how they got to their selves to this position, investigating all angles. And the one thing that, the one thing that, they like to do is they like to open up a lot of options. And maybe they'll say no to all of them. Maybe they'll take one and say no to the rest. But I just think it's interesting. I just hadn't heard them out there very much really in a long time. And, you know, like that Caruso trade, which is the last trade they did, right, Bobby? The Caruso trade kind of came out of nowhere.

I didn't know that was coming. You know, most of the time, we may not know all the details, but most trades for us, right, Bobby, don't come totally out of the blue. Luca did. Luca is the ultimate outlier. That Cruzo train to me came out of the blue. I don't know if it did too. It was a week before the draft, I think. It was late in mid-June. Yeah. One other thing I'll say is you remember a year ago, the Sons did something that was revolutionary and unusual, and I really was not a fan of it, but the Sons have had a pretty good few months, was they had a far-out future first-round pick that they traded and turned it into

three-first. They broke one unprotected far-out future pick into three-first so that they could do some more business, which they did with the Utah Jazz. There are a few teams who have limited draft assets that I think are sniffing around doing the same thing. And, you know, there's what? There's like five or six teams that have like some incredible number of the picks. There are, are seven teams that control 50% of the tradable picks in the next seven years. Right. So those seven teams, they don't want all those picks, right? I mean, they, you know, you go year by year, but like, you know, some of these teams can't draft all these players. So, you know, I guess one of the, you know, Oklahoma City was one of the first teams to do this, although it happened on draft night,

where they traded three firsts to get a lottery pick for the Knicks. It was three of their least valuable firsts to get a lottery pick. which they used on Usman Jang, who hasn't panned out as a player. But they also made sure nobody else traded for it, which was right next to their pick, which they used on Jalen Williams, just another story for another day. But these are also deals that I think you could see Oklahoma City or Utah or Charlotte or Brooklyn involved in, Bobby. Yeah, as one team explained to me, it's basically getting an interest-free loan, right?

but having to pay high interest in like years four and five because you're basically, you're getting something, I guess, somewhat free, but giving up something of significant value here. You mentioned the Phoenix pick that is now in the hands of the Utah Jazz, which is now protected in, I think, 2013. But if you're the teams that have one pick,

which includes the Milwaukee Bucks, I don't know if that's the direction you would want to go with or the Lakers potentially are one of those. teams. Cleveland's another one. Does it make sense as far as to go out and try to get three picks of lesser value of one that is that is unprotected? And I think the other version of that, that, you know, when we go back to the Miami conversation at the beginning about how do they get the 27 pick to unlock two first rounds to trade?

You know, we've seen another thing that Oklahoma City in particular has done, you know, is we'll trade you one of our first round picks for a swap in a situation where, you know, where, you know, we think it's very likely to, you know, that swap is going to get us far up in the draft. So even though we're actually down a first round pick net, it's still better in terms of the upside for us. So I think that's something to watch it, you know, with Miami potentially. The crazy thing about the Thunder's whole draft process is their shot metric, I guess you could say, for their draft picks, getting lucky has been low. they've had several very near misses on acquiring high picks with all these picks that they've had. Now, the one thing that they did get was their pick one year when it was Chad Holmgren went up to number two.

And that was obviously very big. But they had a very near miss on getting like a top 10 swap with Houston. Houston got the pick. I think the one that became Jalen Green. Jalen Green. Yeah, I think that was top four protected. Yeah. Had they not jumped up, they would have.

Oklahoma City would have gotten it. Last year, by the skin of their teeth, the Philadelphia 76ers got that third pick. And it would have been the skin of their teeth because two other teams were behind them left them and would have pushed them back and the pick would have fallen in the hands of the thunder. This year, the Jazz are in an all-out tankathon to avoid giving that pick. I mean, who knows how the lottery might fall. But that's a pick that under different circumstances, the thunder could have gotten and maybe been in the lottery. So at some point, they'll hit a shot, right? Pelton, like at some point, they're going to get,

you know, the clippers pick, you know, we got off to a terrible start this year. And I was like, oh my God, they might, and then have the clippers have rebounded. But like, at some point, all these orres they have or all these, you know, irons they have on the fire, you know, like, let's like, let's say the clippers miss the playoffs this year. Okay. Let's say they get into the play and then they miss the playoffs. And, you know, they've got like the 13th odds. What if? You know, like it's at some point, I don't, don't you feel like you think I'm wrong? Like at some point, I feel like it's going to come around. The Thunder have karma. It actually hasn't gone that one. I mean, haven't they got enough already? But, well, I mean, in this regard, no, I'm saying their attempts to score big have under.

And by the way, they would say to you, and I know that because, you know, they've said this to me. Like, they would rather have a really, really good chance of having gotten like a seventh or eighth pick as opposed to having the 23rd pick. That's precisely what trading a swap, a first round pick outright for a swap. That's exactly what you're doing. You're knowing that the expected outcome is probably worse, but that's fine because they have ample, you know, picks in the 20s. It's all about chasing that sort of upside for them as it, is it should be and is, you know, they've really mastered it. They can have four this year, but might not end up with two. Is that? I think three, right? I think they'll have one of their own is going to, it's the least one is going to, I think the wizards, right, have their. Yeah, there was a swap there. And then they have

Phillies, right, Philly, they have the clips. And I think Houston is the other one. I think they have three out of, they have Utah. Oh, well, Utah potentially too. Yeah. I mean, yeah. Yeah. And Philly, like, you know, there's about 80% to make the playoffs in BPI right now. Like, that's not a sure thing either. Yeah, I hope Philly stays healthy. They are looking good right now. So, I will, you You guys made me smarter today. Thank you very much for doing so. We appreciate it. Thank you to Mark Devon and Jackson for putting it together. Thank you to Bobby and KP. Bobby, one more time on your website for the sports business classroom. Sportsbusiness classroom.com. And we actually have a lot of free information on there. I've been tracking transactions for the last year and we apply how the CBA applies to it. So you can learn how all that fun mechanisms work. I could see people just doing it for a vacation, just doing it for a vacation, just going to LA and talking basketball for a week in the middle of the winter.

You get to go to rising stars. You get to do all these fun things. Oh, okay. Yeah. You can go see Shams play. That's right. How do we feel about Shams's decision to play in the rising stars? I have not spoken about this yet. How bad injuries are going these days and stuff like that. I don't want to, you know, jinx anyone here. But I did see his montage of his little scouting clips on TV yesterday. So he did, yeah, so we'll see.

He's on Team Mookie Betts, I believe. I think that's what he's on. I'm just glad that the game is after the trade deadline, so he won't have to have his cell phone, multiple cell phones in hand during, well, he's out there on the court. Remember when the trade deadline used to be after the All-Star? When DeMarcus cousins got traded literally at the end of the All-Star game,

Yeah, that was a night. I think that was the last time it was. Well, the thing, I can't remember who the PR person was, but he was in the middle of an interview, right? And it like had been tweeted out. I don't know if it was Woj or Shams or whomever, but it had been tweeted out. And now everybody around him, like, knew he had been traded. And so like the PR guy was like, you just, you just got traded in New Orleans. Like, do you mind remembering correctly? Isn't that how it happened? That's right. I know I was working on the trade grades already at that point. That was the. night where the next day there was a pod and bond temps because he had stayed up so late working on that fell asleep during the middle of the podcast. Is that right? Yeah. Oh, my God. Oh, that was back before we were on video.

That's, oh, my God, you are so right, Pelden. We were before we're on video, we were just on the phone and like, Tim hadn't talked in a while, which was very strange. And we were like, Tim? He wasn't like snoring right thing. He was just like, Tim, he was just fell asleep. Or that would be McMahon's dream now if he just felt excited. But last summer, you know,

people say that Durant got traded when he was on stage at the Fanatics Conference in New York, but Durant knew well before that that had gone public that he was being traded to Houston. But it was a cool kind of interesting moment where he was reacting in real time. He probably didn't know it maybe it had been finalized or whatever. But I think the DeMarcus one, I think he didn't really know.

Or maybe he knew a little bit, but didn't know. how close it was. So, all right. Thank you, Bobby. Thank you, Pelton. We'll see you soon and we'll get through the next week as a group.