Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Biggest Offseason Questions With HUGE Impact Across The NBA: Giannis, LeBron, Top Pick & More

Episode Date: June 17, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to break down some of the questions that will have massive ramifications on the NBA offseason. The guys assess the two top teams going after Giannis and discuss why he is likely to be moved by the NBA Draft. Then, we tackle what is going on in Utah ahead of the draft including some significant contract negotiations and who the Jazz are looking to select. Finally, what will happen with LeBron and the Lakers and will it address the biggest issues facing the team. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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which are doing on Tuesday afternoon back in our home bases, joining us from New York City, where they're keying up for the parade. Are you getting your spot already on the Canyon of Heroes there, Tim Bontemps? Hello, everybody. I'm going to be very happily ensconced on the Upper West Side, wandered around Central Park. It's been a spectacular week of weather.

It's been like 75 and sunny every day. Hopefully, for the people going to the parade on Thursday, it'll be the same. Let's see what the weather's supposed to be. High 89, but probably it'll be, I guess it'll be like 80 and sunny when the parade's going on. So it should be a very lovely day for the people who are going. You guys know one of my things is it's so hard to win a championship that I highly, highly encouraged celebrating the ever-living hell out of it.

And I know that people in the NBA don't really aren't going to really listen to me. But I always encourage it. So I want to see, for these next three to five weeks, I want to see this trophy on the back of Mitchell Robinson's pickup truck. I want to see it. God knows where Josh Hart and Jalen Brunson are going to take it. I want to see these guys at parties. I want to see them enjoying every little bit of it.

I want to see all the folks in the Knicks on their floats going down Broadway. Absolutely. Totally enjoying all of this and talking their talk and doing it because I just know it's so damn hard to win it that you've got to enjoy it. So we are now in the time where the Knicks need to completely take advantage of that. And joining us from Dallas, Texas is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners. Judging from some clips that I've seen,

I think O'GNanobie, Macau Bridges, I think those guys are enjoying the celebration so far. Well, the next, the fact that the Knicks are in New York City means they're available for every nationally syndicated morning show. And I think they have been on every single one of them at some time over the past couple of days. It's only Tuesday afternoon, but I can't have lost track of the number of shows they've been on. It's been quite funny.

Carl Towns was on Howard Stern today. It was? I didn't even see that one. Yeah, it's crazy. By the way, I didn't tell you about this, Bonzance. Window, devoted Howard Stern fan for people who didn't know. For 20 years. McMahon, when Bon Temps and I walked into the arena for game three of the finals while walking

into MSG, there was a guy sitting on the sidewalk outside Penn Station who had a sign and a clicker, and he says, I'm saying the name Jalen Brunson 100,000 times. Do you remember that guy, Bontz? I just remembered it now. It took everything in me to not stop and walk over to the guy and say, why? Why are you doing this? Well, he shouted us out, like he paused the Brunson 100,000 to shout us out. He did.

And very smartly sat outside the media entrance so the media could all see him. Well, he ended up on Howard Stern. Oh. Did he really? Yeah. I don't know if he got him anything. I think for attention and it was working. I guess.

I guess it got him on Howard Stern. That's amazing. I think it got him on. I think he was on quite a few shows. I'm sure he was. And yes, he did say, according to him 100,000 times, who's going to check his work? And he live streamed it. So I'm sure it's somewhere, you could probably go watch him say it.

Several hours in, you'll see a three-interference. Programming, I'd rather view. I'll bet. All right. Anyway, talking about programming, it's time to talk about the NBA off-season, which is now definitely going. So a few things that we're going to be definitely paying attention to heading into the draft, which is a week from when we're recording this. at least the first round.

I think we've been blissfully able to not talk about Janus Tena Kumpa on the podcast for several months largely. But unfortunately, I think that time is an end. We talked about them during the finals, but it's a time. We just sort of tossed it in. We sort of checked the box. We've been checking the box for two years now. I know. Seven, but who's counting?

And the thing about it is, if slash when he gets traded, it will. reshape the entire league. Maybe. There's a decent chance of reshaping the entire league and change the balance of power and be a massive story and wherever he goes if he's healthy will be a almost certainly a contender. And all of this stuff that we have built up to, it'll be explained as to why it matters so much. But in the interim, it is beyond fatiguing and unless you're a team that could potentially acquire him. Anyway, Bon Temps, it does seem like the bucks are going to to try to do this. I don't think it's a done deal, but I do think it's probable that he's going to get traded by next Tuesday. And it's probable, I think, that he ends up in the Eastern Conference. Yeah, I mean, this all goes back to the comments from Jimmy Haslam six weeks ago, right, when they introduced Taylor Jenkins and he said, we're either going to trade Yonis by the day the draft arrives or we're going to pivot to build around, Janus, and we're going to have them around.

And so one way or the other, it's Tuesday afternoon right now, by, you know, a week and change from now, we're going to have the answer one way or the other. Because if they don't trade him by the draft, honestly, I think he's going to be a buck the rest of his career at that point. because he's going to sign the extension later this year if he doesn't get traded, and I think he'll just be there, and that'll be that. But I agree with you. I think it's more likely than not he gets traded in the next week. And I don't know if I go quite as far as your comments on how good the team will be where he winds up, only because he hasn't really been a contender the last few years on the team he's been on.

So I think you at least have to qualify it depends on where he lands. But certainly, any time a guy of Janus's caliber is potentially available in a trade, There's a reason we talk about it endlessly. You typically have to have a player of his caliber to have a chance to win a title. And if he changes teams, you know, it's got a chance to certainly be a earth-shaking thing. And the fact that it is likely to happen if it does happen before the draft means that we're then going to be able to see what the ripple effects are of that move. It's not like it's going to happen. You know, like Dwight Howard got traded, for example, in August, right?

Or the Kyrie trade happened in around Labor Day or the Doddiv-Mittal trade happened around Labor Day. Like those trades happening later in the summer, a lot of the business was done. The fact that this could potentially happen by the draft, you then had whatever team he gets to will have an opportunity to do more things and you'll have the other teams that strike out on getting Yannis that are interested, then have the ability to potentially pivot and go in other directions if they want to. Yeah, okay. So the two teams that are getting mentioned, you know, not only. There's a couple other teams, I think, that have had some discussions with the Bucks, but the two teams that are consistently getting mentioned are Miami and Boston. Miami has had interest in Janice four months. They have talked to the bucks about this on and off four months.

I know that the word offer is being thrown around out there in some places. I am not going to throw around the word offer because the word offer is sacred in the NBA and it ends up becoming a thing. But I think we can say with certainty. Concepts. Concepts. Right. Right. Concepts of a book. Concepts of an offer. Yeah. Concepts of an offer.

And here's really the bottom line. I don't think the bucks like what the heat have conceptually talked about because if they did, they would have made this deal. Can I qualify that slightly? Yes. They don't love it, I would say, right? Like, because if they loved it, they would have done it. They might end up making a trade with the heat. But if there was a good enough, if there was a trade where they felt great about it and they were like, yeah, we got to do it. Like you said, it would be done by now because the heat had been interested for months. What's the deadline to make a deal with the heat? There is no real deadline. That's in February.

The deadline is when the heat is on the clock. The invented deadline is Tuesday. The deadline is when the heat are on the clock. Correct. With the 13th pick. Right. Unless you can make a deal with another team who's got a higher pick than that. Sure.

But in terms of making a deal with the heat, if you're going to accept the concept or the offer that materializes, the deadline is next Tuesday night. when that pick is on the clock because that pick will be part of it, and you want to make that pick. Now, there have been examples, you know, you mentioned the jazz. It was actually Rudy Gaubert. I was getting Donovan and Rudy crossed. But, for example, the wolves had made their pick. Their pick was Walker Kessler.

The Jazz didn't get to make that pick because it was well after the draft. But they got Walker Kessler. Yeah, typically in a case like this, if you're going to have that pick involved, the deadlines when that team's on the clock because you want to make that pick. Correct. I don't know if it would actually ever get to the actual

on the clock for a trade like this, but stranger things have happened. Well, it does seem like the Bucks, I mean, the thinking has been that the Bucs would like to do this at some point before the draft itself to have time to really assess where the draft is and where they're at

and figure out what they want to do too. Can you lay out what the concept, the concepts, kind of what we're talking about here? Yeah. So if you look at what the heat have, the heat can trade up to three first round picks. Actually, it's up to four first round picks now. I'll give you the specifics on that in a moment. You can continue. I'll look it up to make sure. Okay. So they're not trading BAM at a bio, okay? But everybody else on the roster, you could probably assume that the heat would have, will be willing to have some level of conversation with. The interesting thing is that Andrew Wiggins has a player option for $30 million, that he is almost certain to pick up. They can't trade him until he picks it up.

So if Andrew Wiggins does not want to be traded in this deal, he could sit there and just keep his mouth shut until the last second of his player option. They can't trade him. If he does pick up his player option, then that's $30 million expiring contract, they could trade him. Now, by the way, maybe the Heat don't want Wiggins

to pick up his contract right now because maybe the heat want to keep Andrew Wiggins because if you trade for Yannis, you may like to have Andrew Wiggins as your wing defender, but they can't trade Andrew Wiggins. They're not going to trade BAM at a bio. Everybody else, Everybody else essentially, I'm sure they would be willing to discuss.

The core players that they're willing to discuss, obviously are Tyler Hero, who is going into the final year of his contract at $33 million, a one-time All-Star who has basically averaged 20 points and shot 37 or 38% on three for the last five years steadily. You were going to get that production from him, and that production has helped the Heat become a play-in team every year. But he is, you can look square in the camera and say that they would be trading an All-Star. Also, he's 26, 27 years old.

He is just entering his prime. And he's from Milwaukee. He's from the, I think he's from outside Milwaukee. He's from Wisconsin. Yeah. The other core pieces I think you're looking at are Jaime's Hakez, who is going into his fourth season. He's extension eligible.

Obviously, was a candidate for rookie of the year, was finished second and sixth man of the year coming out, you know, had an excellent rookie season. Sophomor slump, much stronger. Yes. A role player. Calilware, Calil Ware, who's a 22-year-old center, athlete, trying to become a stretch center,

block shots, definite type of modern center that you'd like, but again, a role player. You know, if you're building a team that you want to think as a title team, he's probably you're hoping that he's your fourth or fifth or sixth best player. He's comparable, I think, McMahon,

to Derek lively and that type of skill set. I think that's a bit of a stretch. Well, here's a thing. He is a super athletic. He's a seven-footer, correct? I believe he's a legit seven-footer, super-a-legette. He also has, he doesn't have the glaring medical red flags that unfortunately lively does at this point.

And he does have the ability to stretch the floor. Like, he's an extremely intriguing young talent. He's had 40% on three on three-threes a game this year. He doesn't have Derek lively's red flags from a medical standpoint, and he doesn't have nearly Derek lively's highs from a particular. Dutch and standpoint. I mean, Derek lively, I would create from a defensive impact standpoint. Derek lively started

or was a huge part of a team that went to the finals. I mean, but Calaisal Ware has been in and out of the rotation. How about this? He has great defensive tools. Potential. Yeah. But doesn't always have great defensive instincts. Is that particularly, is that said? Okay.

He's a very raw, up and down prospect with some real potential, but also like, you know, he's a, again, He's a, in a deal like this, I would say he's an interesting flyer rather than like, well, no, but, but again, like, he's not a, my point is he's not a blue chip star, like, he's not like, uh, no, he's not trying to, he's not trying to, he's not trying to think of like main guys who've been part of these kinds of trades before. But like he's, he's, he's an interesting piece. He's not a centerpiece of a trade like this for a star, for a star player. So, anyway, he's going into the last, to his third year, he's under control.

for two more years, Kalalwa. You got Pella Larson, 25-year-old wing. Another interesting, former second-round pick, another interesting player. They got Kasparis, I'm trying to remember his last name.

Jay. Yeah, Yakuchonas, right. I was blanking on. Was he in the, was he drafted out of Illinois? He was like 20th. He was a guy that slipped a little bit

in the draft, interesting guard, big guard from Illinois, like played a little bit more as the year went on. Again, another. These are prospects. These are prospects.

They're all interesting you know, Colaleware and Yacochonis in particular, I'd say, are both interesting flyers. Like, you get them in a deal like this, you try to develop them and see where they go. But like... The only thing I'm quibbling with Colellware to me is more than a flyer. He's a guy who averaged 11 points as a rim runner who shot 40% from three, nine rebounds as a 21-year-old. And he went in and out and in and out and in and out of Eric Smolstrow's rotation for the whole year.

So, you know, like if he'd had a... stretch of production of the level of Derek Lively did his rookie year, we wouldn't be having this debate. That's all I would say. But he also doesn't have Derek Lively's two years of injuries since then. Well, he also didn't get to play with Luca Dahlitz or Chicago Irving. True.

I mean, I'm not saying it's a bad thing to get. It's just like, you know, the heat offer just in general is, it's some interesting stuff, but it's not, to Brian's initial point, it's not an overwhelming offer for somebody like Janus, which is why I think it's safe to say the heater, the

the bucks are looking around going, hmm, is somebody going to come in with more than this, then we can maybe get more than this? Where do we put Hamé Hakez on the list? Like, where do you put him in terms of value? 24 years old, just average 15 per game efficiently, big playmaking forward, sixth man of year runner up? I mean, he's a nice player.

I mean, I think he's a good sixth man. Like, I think him being top of the six man of the year. I'm actually 25 now. Yeah, I mean, I think the role he was in this year is kind of the ideal role for him, right? He also, to me, was a guy who really excelled in the Noah Laroe system that they put in this year. Like, he's not, he's not necessarily a pick and roll guy,

but he's really good at attacking on a straight line drive, which is what a lot of that offense is about. But again, he's a, he's another nice piece. Like, you know, he's a nice player. But, you know, I guess what I would say is all four, they got all four, let's say they got Yacachonis and Kalawar and Jaime Hockes and Tyler Hero and draft picks. You're not looking at anybody there saying that's a two or three or five-time All-Star coming back, right?

It's a bunch of interesting younger players. Hero would step in and immediately be a good scoring guard. He'd fit nicely with Ryan Rollins in the back court. But you're not like, oh, there's the guy we're going to have as the face of the team for the next five years. They can offer three first-round picks, including the 13th pick in this draft. And the 13th they can... The other thing that just looked up to picks to make sure. They have an interesting situation with the pick that went out for Terry Rozier.

It's a ladder protected this year. and then unprotected in 28. If I was the heat and went to the Hornets and said, hey, will you let us just make this pick unprotected next year? And you trade this year's pick after the draft. You could, in theory, then trade 29, 31, and 33 and trade four first round picks now, which if I was Charlotte and I'd get an unprotected first round pick,

I'd probably do that, especially with the new rules, and take my chances on it, then wait to see if you get a pick that's not in the lottery. Are you doing that for free? I mean, I probably would do it. You're helping them trade for Janus. I don't know how, I don't know if you're doing. Well, yeah, but I'm also getting, I'm also getting a pick that goes from lottery protected this year to unprotected this year.

Yeah. Yeah, okay. All right. I see what you're saying. Anyway, I wouldn't take me much to do it if I was Charlotte because it's a higher upside swing on the pick. I don't know how much. I don't, you know, in Milwaukee, you have two co-own. You actually have a number of co-owners, but you have two owners who share the governorship. Jimmy Has them and West Edens. Right now, West. West Eden's is the governor, okay? You also have John Horace, the general manager. I'm not sure who gets the final choice on this. Okay, I don't know the answer. I guess technically because West Edens is the governor might be West Eden's. Yeah. But it was Jimmy Haslam who they had come out and make a definitive statement on this. So do you think about that, that they had at Taylor Jenkins press conference? Now, I'm just going to point out that Jimmy Haslam, two weeks ago or so, maybe it was

three weeks ago, as owner of the Cleveland Browns, I've said this before. I have no idea whether this is going to be a thing, but I will just say that the trade of Miles Garrett, who is the cornerstone, one of the greatest players ever played for the Cleveland Browns, after nine years, is comparable to the trade of the Yonis Tenacoup, other than the fact that Yannis has delivered a championship, and Miles Garrett has not. But same type of thing. And the Rams offered packages that had more draft picks in them. And also, like with Janus, there were offers at the trade deadline during the NFL season that had more draft picks in them. And it was not until the Rams included this, and I'm not a expert on this at all, but this edge rusher, Jared Verse, okay? I ain't doing any analysis, but they traded a guy who's been an all pro for the last two years. And it was then, they actually offered packages and had more draft picks in it.

And it wasn't until then that they got an all-star basically to replace Garrett, granted not as good as Garrett. It was that was what cinched the deal. And I read the stories that were done about this, the TikToks and everything, that interviewed the folks.

And there was quite a bit of interviews that were done by the principles and they revealed that that's what clinched it. And so I don't know about attempts whether Jimmy Haslam's got the final choice, but it seems to me, based on that, if I was preparing a dossier for my owner about dealing with Jimmy Hasam, I would say, boy, he might be interested in a player who can help him right away, especially a player who might be under control contractually. Well, a couple things, right? One, that. Two, let's just look at the situation the bucks are in. Exactly. You don't have the draft picks for the next several years. We're also in this new reality that we're in where the draft system is essentially a giant game of,

slot machine or you just you pull the lever and you see where the hell everything lands. So it's it even if you're like in some ways you could say hey that means all picks are more valuable. You can also say it's hard to really plan for certain picks being very valuable because you really don't know where anything's going to land. So if you're the box and you come out of this like look maybe the best deal they can get is several Miami heat lottery or several Miami keep draft picks plus some interesting players. And you take the bet that, hey, look, the heat had been in the play in the last bunch of years.

They're not going to have a ton of talent left around Janus, besides Bam, after this trade. Janice has certainly had some injury issues. This team could easily wind up right in the same kind of spot it was last year. And by the way, maybe that means they jump up to the top four or five with their draft pick, right, going forward. So you at least have that potential argument to make on it. The other side of it is, if you can get players from other places that are ready-made players to play now,

that's a far more certain path to getting value than the, again, guessing where the lottery is going to be in a couple of years in terms of what the system is going to be, and guessing where the picks are going to land. So this is where I think it just keeps coming back to your initial point, whereas the seed offer is fair, it's fine, if they get it. Concept. Concept. Exactly.

This concept, sure. It's, I think in some ways, it's not quite as much talent. I think Tyler Hero thinks he's been offered. Well, he knows he will be if he hadn't in. So whatever. That's romantic. It's not as much stuff, but it's similar to me to what the Lakers wound up giving for, I guess it's maybe not quite as much of what they gave up for Anthony Davis talent-wise.

But it's a similar kind of thing, at least to me, where Hero will be a productive player for them and a good player for them. and maybe Kowalwaer blossoms there. And, you know, there's some paths to that being real value. But it doesn't lack the automatic, oh, hey, the, you know, the Bucks got X for Janus, who's going to step in and immediately be, like, in the photos with the jersey on is like the guy who's going to be outside of FISA forum going forward. And that, if that person comes along in the next week, yes, exactly.

So if that person comes along in the next week, Whatever team that winds up being from, Rihanna's goes, if it's not Miami, I think that's why we're sitting here waiting to see if a trade happens. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. This spring, denim gets a softer, lighter update. Introducing Old Navy's drapey denim wide leg, a new fit that moves with you.

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They are very cautious. They are moves very routinely. They have no leaking. Sometimes they come out of the clear blue. We've almost not known anything. Just about every move since Brad Stevens has taken over has kind of come out of the clouds. Right, which is why you've got to be careful when you hear information out of Boston thinking you got to price that in to your evaluation of it. I think Boston has, from what I understand, Boston is trying to make it well known that the word offer has never passed through their lips.

So sure they've had conversations, but I think they're avoiding the word offer. Well, also because how many times has Jaylen Brown's name been mentioned in trade discussions or dangled or whatever you want to say? And that's a pretty damn sensitive subject, especially as he's coming off of another all-MBA campaign. And he has a very active Twitch account. Well, I'm not sure what you're saying there, just to be clear. but I think up until this year he hasn't really been included in anything. He's been at least, there's been a lot of, call it speculation or whatever, but there's, you know, going back to like the KD stuff and there's been a lot of talk.

Well, that's what I'm saying. There's been a lot of people saying things about Jalen Brown being traded in the past. What I'm saying is I don't ever think it's been anywhere close to a real thing in the past. The perception of Jalen Brown being available is a very sensitive, subject if you're sitting there in the Celtics front office. That's all I'm pointed out. Right. For sure. Right. Now, Jalen Brown is a different player than Tyler Hero. Okay. Jalen Brown is, is he's 30. He's either 30 or about to turn 30. Jalen Brown is he'll be 30 basically when the season starts next year. October 24th, he turns 30. Multi-time all NBA, finals MVP,

conference finals MVP, you know his resume. He's under contract for three more years at a gigantic number. It's something like $180 or $190 million. It's over $60 million a year. Coming off a career a year. Yeah, it's over $60 million a year. A bona fide star player under contract control. Yeah, made multiple all the NBA teams, two-way wing. Like, is he, you know, a top five player?

No, but he's an excellent player. You can put him in the picture. No, he's an, right, he's an excellent player, and, you know, he just had a great year, finished six MVP voting. Like, that's a guy where if he, came back into trade, that would be an easy sell. Or he's a guy they could then turn around potentially and turn into more stuff if they wanted to. Like there's a lot of different ways they could

go. But he's, yeah, again, and this has been my point with the heat from the beginning. It's obviously the one you made off the bat. Like, if the heat come out of this trade with Jalen Brown and stuff, that's much different than the Miami offer. It's, whether they then turn Jailinler Brown into more stuff, again, that's a much different thing than the Miami offer. Now, let me just say two things that I wrote about today about the Celtics. Number one, to trade Jalen Brown, I mean, I see people tossing it around because it's in the trade machine and it works for Janus, etc. As if it's just a trivial thing. I mean, talk about a generational decision that you'd have to make about trading these two guys that have gone to one finals and then one another finals,

who are in their primes and under contract, both under contract for three more years. I think Tatum has four more with an option. Jalen Brown's contract has no options in it, by the way. So you'd know you'd have them. This is a massive decision. Now, you may say, you may create your scenarios where you think that Jalen Brown and Jason Tatum maybe don't work for X, Y, Z. And you can present your PowerPoint presentation and you can win some people over and you can patch yourself on the back. You may even be right. But this is not a concept of whether they're a championship duo. They're a championship duo, period. Okay, so that's one.

So that's one big thing that Selkips have to deal with. The second thing is, and Bonn-Temises live this on the front line, Joe Missoula is dogmatic about the way he wants to play basketball, okay? Arguably dogmatic to a fault, although he did win coach of the year this year. I would not say arguably. Okay. Now, trading for Janus, regardless of who use in the package, fundamentally changes the way the Celtics would have to play.

And he's a basketball coach. Good, great basketball coaches change their systems based on their personnel. Of course, I think Joe Mazzula can coach a different way. I'm not saying, you know, that they got Yannis, that they, but he wouldn't be, of course he'd be able to coach him. But you're talking about convincing your head coach who is married to this system to divorce himself from that system and do over. That is not just like, oh, Janus's press conference. We'll see you at training camp. I would maybe push back slightly on that because I do think, like, yes, Janus does not shoot many threes. But if you,

have a system where you have shooting all around Janus with the ball with a bunch of long athletic players around him and Janus has space to attack the basket, like, that's not that much of a divorcing from the current system. And it could be pretty devastatingly affected. Now, I do agree with you that it's very easy. This is one of the easiest trade machine trades to do ever in that you just go, oh, do Janlon Brown for Yonis and punch it in and do it. And it's like, oh yeah, you can do that on 2K and punch it in the trade machine and like, there you go, you're off and running. And it is not that simple in reality to make that kind of a trade.

Obviously, as you mentioned, Jalen Brown has 10 years in Boston. He has won a title in Boston. He, I would imagine all but certainly will have his number seven in the rafters in Boston. I won finals MVP with the Celtics a couple years ago. And I agree with you. I think he and Jason, all this talk about he and Jason Tatum don't fit together. all this stuff has always been nonsense. I think the bigger question and the bigger challenge

the Celtics have to face is not about the fit of Jason Tatum and Jaylon Brown. I think it's more realistically looking at their runway. And Derek White is now 32. And after having to trade away, I believe he's 32, and after having to trade away Drew Holiday and Chris Sforzinger and losing Al Horford and losing LeCornet all in a summer and not really getting the ability to replace any of them because they had to get out of the tax, right? they had a lot of talent drain from their roster.

And Brad Stevens talked about this at the end of the season. I believe they were 3 and 11 against the teams with the five best records in the league besides them, which I believe is San Antonio, Oklahoma City, Denver, Detroit, and the Knicks. So if you look at it that way, and as Brad Stevens said after the season, they need to add to their talent level. And they don't have a lot of ways to really add to their current talent level.

So... I know one way. Have Tatum be healthy? That obviously will be part of it, right? But, like, we watched it in the Boston Philly series. Like, yes, Philly is always injured. Set that to the side. For the end of that series, when Philadelphia was healthy, they had more talent on the floor than the Celtics did.

So Boston, to get, Boston has a great system. Joe Mazzul is a great coach. Jason Tatum and Jalen Brown is a great foundation. But if you're going to be truly contending for a title, you probably, you need to upgrade the talent somehow. That could be adding more talent around Jason Tatum and Jailon Brown. It could be upgrading on Jason Tatum or Jail and Jailen. Brown. And at least for the next couple of years, if you turn Jalen Brown into Janice Tenacupo,

like, no disrespect to Jalen Brown who had a fantastic year this year, he's not Yannis. Like, that's a fundamentally different level of talent. Yonis is an MVP level talent. Jalen Brown's a second team all-N-Ba talent. Yes. Real quick. If you're going to tell me that Yonis is going to play center, now you have my attention. Or if you can get a, you know, whether it's bringing Vooch a bit, vuch back on a, reasonable deal, like a sinner who can shoot with him. They also have Luca Garz, who had a perfectly, who had a fine year, who's back on a cheap deal.

Like, Brooke Lopez could be a free agent. You could go get a guy like him. Al Horford could become a free agent. Maybe you get him back to Boston. There's ways you can go. Porzingis. Yeah, Porzingis could be a free agent too. Like, there are options they could go to to try to find shooting at the five.

And I'm not saying it's a perfect fit. Like, we have to, again, I think it's a real question about Yonis's health. Like, that's a real thing. Because the five that they've got now, who led them to the two seed and a great year, Nemesh Keda. Led them? Well, okay, I'll walk that back, but he was their starting center on the team. Right, right.

Neemis Kada is a great developmental story and a really nice player. Doesn't shoot threes? No. Oh, but I also think with where the league is going, I don't think you necessarily have to have two guys who are shooting all the time. Okay, fine, but we're talking about Joe Missoula here. So I'm just, I understand. I just, if you have, if you have, if you have Janus and,

Nimi out there and Yannis with the ball in his hands surrounded by shooting. I think Joe Mazzula, I'm pretty confident Joe Mazzula can find ways to make that work. Okay, maybe so. And I'm sure this is what the Celtics have been talking about ad nauseum internally. I'm not saying the Celtics are winding up with Yonis either. But I

do think if you go back to, if you go back to what Brad Stevens said it. What you said was very interesting, which is that at the end of the series against Philly, the Philly had more talent on the court. That is what Brad Stevens was talking about when he at the end of the season. This is what, you know, I don't remember his exact verbiage, but he's basically like, we need to upgrade.

And so, let me ask you this. I talked about that record against the other elite teams that we have to get better. So it's, this is not just a binary choice, right? If you're going to have a conversation with, with Milwaukee, whether you want to use the word offer or not, you're basically having a conversation about Jalen Brown, right? And if you've gotten to the point where you're willing to have a conversation, are you thinking about training Jailen Brown somewhere else? Well, and here's the other thing to think about. A couple years ago, the Boston Celtors traded Marcus Smart

at the absolute peak of his value for Chris Sasker-Zangis and a couple of first-round picks. And it was a great trade, right? And I'm not saying the trade in Jalen Brown right now. He may play the rest of his career in Boston. But this is the peak of Jalen Brown's value. He's coming off the best season of his career.

He was six in MVP voting. He had a phenomenal season. It would have been first team all-N-B-A if Kate Cunningham hadn't been last second made eligible to be on the team. So he had a phenomenal season. Again, to be crystal clear for the aggregators, I am not predicting Jalen Brown's getting traded.

I'm not predicting he's getting traded for Yannis. But if you were thinking about trading Jalen Brown, this would be the time to do it. Because his value is probably never going to be higher. One other factor. In July, he's eligible for a contract extension. Now, he has three years and 180-something million dollars left. He can add two more years.

Okay. Nobody likes to talk about contract extensions more than window, man. He's got all the dates. You think Jalen Brown isn't aware he's available for a company? I think he's just going to be like, nah, I don't want the extra 100 mil. Don't worry about it. He's got the hands going. It's not important.

I'm not saying you're wrong. I give you credit for it. You are on top of this more than anybody else. So let me just ask you this. Let's just say everything's going along merrily with Jalen Brown. He's in a beautiful place. Beautiful. Are you ready to give him

$60, $70 million a year when he's 34 or 35 years old? Like you want to do that right now? As the season ended, he went on his little streaming thing and he said this is the most I'm paraphrasing, but he basically said this was the most fun season he's ever had.

This was his favorite season. He said that repeatedly throughout the season on the podium and everywhere else. And why would he say that? Because it was his team. That's right. Which he kind of dragged that whole Tatum Brown discussion back up.

I thought completely unnecessarily. But what he's telling you is he loves being the focal point, the superstar, the guy who's got the ball in his hands, you know. And so I think that's got to be a factor as you ponder different scenarios with him moving forward as the Boston Celtics. Okay, so to be continued on the honest front. All right, so I want to talk about one of our favorite teams that we never get to talk about, and that's McMahon's Utah Jazz.

Why would we do that? I think we're going to be talking about the jazz a lot in the next couple of years. Jazz are going to be awfully good. Yeah. The jazz are going to be pretty good. I think the jazz are going to be really good. I've said, I think they'll make a lot of it. the playoff next year. I'm a big fan. He's wearing a Salt Lake Summer League shirt right now.

I am. I know you. Hey, that's where I'll be there. I'll be there, you know, July 4th through 7. Who's going to be the primary guy for the jazz representing them as their number one, number two overall pick? That's the question. Well, that's a great question. And that's one of, and look, there's three alternatives. And I don't believe that the jab, number one, they don't know who's going to be there. Who's going number one? Number two, whoever's there, whoever's there. at two, I don't believe they know which guy they're picking. Now, if it's AJ DeBanza, if it's Darren Peterson, if it's Cameron Boozer, I think all those three guys are in play for the jazz at this point.

I would agree, but I think if AJ DeBance is at two, my hunch is Opey playing for the jazz. I would do so. I don't think AJ DeBance is getting past two. Let me ask you this. I'm debating about whether I should show a text message. Sure, I'll show it. Uh-oh. We're showing a text message.

Really? You're going to cover the name? No, I'll show it. Oh, wow. I think, I don't think there's a problem with this. I don't know where this is going. Ace to dance, AJ's dad sent me this morning. It's the picture about, just a completely blurry.

It's a, it's a jazz shirt and a wizard's shirt. He's got them both. They're preparing. They're ready. He visited both places last week, by the way. And Darren Peterson did not, and that's become a bit of a story, but. Darren only went to, Darren's only visit with the Wizards just to be clear in case people I haven't seen.

Darrell Peterson, his dad, fan of the pot. What's up, Daryl? Are you a native, I believe, correct? Yes, not a native, but that's where we, that's where Darren was largely raised. Now, I will tell you. I met him at the big 12th tournament. Very nice guy. McMahon, we appeal to the NBA player's dads.

You'm older than a bunch of them now. You appeal to them. Yeah. That's your beat. It's your beat, Gwen Horst. I know, it is. You know what I want to get? You know what I'm going.

Here's what I'm going. at Summer League next year in Vegas. I'm going to see if I can get like NBA rookie dad pickup run and I'll play with them. That's what I'm going to go. I don't think that's a good idea for you. I'm going with it. Listen, here's the thing.

I'll be able to like pick the teams and like put myself in a situation where I'll have to do is set screens for guys and go get buckets. Listen, I want to say this. Ron Harper would have been one of the players, for example, several time NBA champion, Ron Harper. Probably wouldn't have worked out great for you. I'll let screens. And Matt Harper would have talked trash to you

He sure would have I could probably do that Yeah Anyway I talk trash to you on your team I would guess You do not You do not draft for need in the top five Okay

You draft for you draft the best talented player You don't draft for need anywhere You draft the best player on the board If you're doing your proper And the jazz That's not an iron rule But generally it should be It should be

The jazz have They've done a lot of things over the last few years, and really over the last year in particular, to build up their, to build up their roster, to put themselves in a chance to be competitive this year, to compete for a postseason spot, I would say. They still don't have a clear cut face the franchise. Jared Jackson Jr., very good player, not a face of a franchise. Same with Larry Marketing. Kiante George took a major leap last year, not a face the franchise. Bailey's got the potential to maybe be that guy, but no sure thing. They've got to pick a guy at two who has a chance to develop into that sort of a player.

And you do realize if it's to Bansaw, it does crowd them a little bit. And I'm not saying that you... I don't think it really does. Okay. Who's their starting five? Well, Walker Kessler, probably, and we're going to get to that here in a little bit. Okay. They'll start Walker Kessler, Jaron Jackson, Jr.

they'll start Keante George, AJ DeBancel, Larry Marketing, Jared Jackson Jr. And Walker Kessler. Okay, you're not starting Ace Bailey. No. They will not start Ace Bailey.

They'll be a giant team. Everyone's going to go thumbs up. Sounds good. Bro, whoever they draft, Ace Bailey isn't going to start. If they draft Cambuzer, maybe Camboosur won't start. Right.

Yeah. This is part of why I think the jazz are going to be really good. The jazz has a lot of talent. I don't know. I mean, Peterson, they could start Peterson. That's what I'm saying.

They will start Aaron Peterson. If they draft Petersen. Here's the guys who are starting next year. We're going to assume for now, and we're going to get into this in a minute, that Walker Kessler's are starting five. Jenner Jackson Jr. is at the four. Larry Marketing's at the three. Keante George is at the one.

And then whichever of Ace DeBanza, AJ DeBanza, not Ace DeBanza, AJ DeBancor, Darren Peterson will start at the two. And if they draft Camboozer, he will, I would guess, come off the bench in that scenario. And they would start Ace Bailey or somebody else at the two. probably ace of the two. So, look, Ace Bailey.

Ace is his father. I'm sorry. Ace Bailey. Ace Bailey. Ace Bailey. He's going to be a lot of aces and AJ's and too much going on. Ace Bailey. He was not paying attention half the time.

Right. Ace Bailey infamously did not visit the jazz and, you know, there was a lot of messaging that he didn't want to be in Utah before the draft last year. They picked him anyway. They got him there. And frankly, they're very happy with him. They feel like it's been really smooth sailing. with him and he is not voiced one peep of displeasure being in Utah since they got him on board.

Darren Peterson not visiting Utah will not be a factor whatsoever in their decision. I've known Austin A. A.A. A.m. A.m. As we saw it, like you said, with Ace Bailey last year, he's going to draft the best player that he wants to pick. He's not going to care if guys showed up or not. It's going to be fine. The question is really, you know, do the aanges, Danny and Austin have anything up their sleeve with what they would do at number two or would they just take whoever the Wizards don't take. I think they're just going to take whoever they decide as the best player on their board at that point.

Because you do know that Danny and Austin could do anything. You could give me any scenario and I wouldn't say it's impossible. The only thing I feel confident about is they're not trading up to one. Now, I do think they're looking at booze or hard, and part of that evaluation is, like, Jaron Jackson Jr.'s flaw playing the five, and I'm not saying to start there,

but playing there is he's a poor rebounder for a five. Well, Boozer would really mitigate that concern because he's a really strong rebounder for a four, right? And Boozer is a four, part of the concern is, you really need a rim protector alongside him. Obviously, Jared Jackson Jr. is an elite rim protector. So those guys would, you could see them as a great complimentary duo. And again, I'm not saying that's how they would start,

but just playing significant minutes together. There are people who think Cam Boos is the number one, player in the draft. He's coming off having one of the greatest analytical seasons we've ever seen in college. He has won huge at every single level he's been at. I mean, he's not nearly the same player.

You can make some comparisons with him and Luca Donchich in terms of their success at every level and they're tremendously high IQ on the court and the questions about them being athletically and not, and that sort of looking past the production

they've had. I mean, honestly, I've I spent a lot of time thinking about Camboozer for the past six months because his profile is really fascinating as a guy who has, again, produced at every single level to an astronomical level and has won a ton of games at every single level. And then you watch him play and he's kind of a groundbound four and he could maybe be a small ball five. But, you know, how well is he going to move his feet? And he's really a power point forward is what he is. Yes. And I had somebody to, I respect a lot in the league a few months ago when we were talking about. Camboozer say, quote, I'm going to take the, generally I'm going to take the super high IQ

slash field guy and trust them to figure it out. The Jalen Brunson rule. Well, whether it's Jalen Brunson, whether it's Luca Donchich, whether it's Nikolayokic, like we've seen a lot of guys who their processing is super-duper high have success. And generally, if you looked at the numbers, if you just looked at the numbers without any names attached and you just laid it out, like Camboos would be the number one pick in the draft. And we don't think Camboozer is getting past Memphis. I would bet my life on him not getting past Memphis.

The team that's very, and I don't say this mockingly, a team that's very much driven by analytical processing. And like, frankly, I hope he lands there because, but knock on wood that he could stay healthy, I would be fascinated to watch the combination of Zach Eady and Cambozer. I think that's got a chance to be really, really, really good. It would be interesting. And it would be fun to see.

And I do think, whichever one of these guards are slash wings, is it too, I think there'll be great fits in Utah and Will Hardy system. Be super fun to watch. And by the way, if it does go that way, the Bulls will be beyond thrilled. The Bulls have the easiest job in the whole draft. They're going to sit there and they're just going to wait and see which of these four guys

gets to four and they're going to take that guy. They don't even really have to think about it. It's like, all right, we'll just get the fourth guy in the tier and we'll be good. Now, there is one more thing I want to mention about the Darren Peterson, Utah dynamic. He's represented by the same agency that represents Keante George. My understanding is the jazz thing those two guys could fit very well.

Keante's kind of a 1.5. Peterson's kind of a 1.5. Peterson's probably more of a 2 than a 1. You know, Keonté had a breakout year last year. I'm not sure the agency feels as strongly about their fit, but I think the agency's opinion might be influenced by the team unlikelyhood of Keante George getting a contract extension this summer. And listen, the jazz, they want to be good.

That means they're going to have to negotiate hard. They're obviously not going to be a free agency destination. They're becoming very expensive. The trade for Jaron Jackson Jr. really vaulted them from a payroll perspective. Lowry is obviously on a max. And just like they've been negotiating hard with Walker Kestel, which I promise we're getting too soon,

I think they're going to take the same approach with Kianti, George. And look, if you're a Kianti, you just had a breakout season You guys have his numbers right in front of you from last season. I'll pull him up right now. His agency is called the team. That's the reference that was making. The team. I got it right here.

So last year, Keate George averaged 23.6 points per game, 6.1 assists, shot 45.6% from the field, shot 37% from 3 on almost 7 attempts per game. And to me, most intriguingly, got to the line seven times a game and shot 89%. And again, this was with a jazz team that, you know, had ulterior motives most of the season, understandably. Did he get a terrible injury that caused him with all those games?

I don't remember. That one of the next stuff. Right. We've already seen Will Hardy is one of the most creative offensive coaches in the league. And part of the reason why I'm so high on the jazz next year is you were out there with, let's say they get either one of these guys. Let's say it's Peterson or DeBanson. And you have them out there with Keonti George and the shooting that Jared Jackson,

Larry Marketing have, and Walker Kessler with them, and then whatever else they have coming off the bench, Ace Bailey Plus, like I think they're going to be super fun to watch and very dynamic offensively. I can't wait a Western conference. But let me ask you this on Kianti George. If you're representing Kianti George eligible for an extension of his rookie deal,

for you to sign an extension this fall, what are you asking for? Max or damn near Max? Like, you're not leaving a lot of money on the table because those numbers. Yeah. What are you asking? asking for. That's what you're asking for. Yeah, I mean,

if you're the jazz, yeah. This was a breakout year. He really, his first two years didn't go well. He, I mean, took a huge leap. He was in the conversation for most improved player. If you're the jazz, are you willing to put Max or near Max on the table? Do you want to see it for another year before you commit to it, knowing he'd be restricted the next summer? I think it would depend ultimately where it landed. If it was Max on the boss to Walker, I would, yeah, if it was Max, max or bust, I would say, all right, let's wait and see if you do this again. If I could get Keante done for somewhere around 20 to, you know, 20% of the cap instead of

the 25 and still give them, I'd have to do the math on that, but something in the neighborhood, I don't even want to say numbers, but if I could do something around 20% of the cap instead of the 25% max, which would still be a metric ton of money and potentially save a few, saves. You know, the apron, you know, with the Fun Max, which is the Fun Max, unfortunately, is dying. Yeah. Because this is a, this is a situation where the Fun Max would have been employed, right? Especially at a place like Utah. The Fun Max isn't necessarily dying, but it's dying on a team when you're already paying, like next year, let's, I'll pull up Utah stuff.

Well, okay, hold on. Just float up. Well, just, just, Jared Jackson next year is making almost 30% of the cap. He's making $49 million. And Larry Markinen is making 28% of the cap of $46 million. we already have two guys making that much money, you have to start thinking about the total picture and the fun max isn't quite as fun that. And if you were Utah who was never going to be a free agent player, it was easier to give out a

fun max to a guy like Keante George five years ago than it is now. Because now, the difference between paying a guy 20% of the, nobody ever got 20% of the max. If you were within range, you got the max because it was fun, because it's easier to give a mad guy to a 22 or 23% or 23-year-old guy, 25% and believe that he's going to grow into that 25% player. And a lot of the times it worked out. Occasionally it didn't. Well, the guys like Anthony Simon's it didn't. You want to make sure you're not that guy. Right. But what I'm saying is, is what Bon Temps is saying, and he's right, is that people are now going to negotiate 20% of the cap. 18% of the cap. I mean, there were still negotiations on those kind of things in the past. It's just, and that's why it came out with

the fun max because it was easier to give. And I'm just going to tell you this. I believe, And I think the Jazz believed that Keante George is going to be closer to 25% than 20%. I also believe the Jazz wanted to be absolutely sure if they're putting that kind of money on the table, and that would require him to have another year like he did this year as he's going on a restricted free agency, which is the same approach that they took last summer with Walker Kessler. And nothing's really changed over the last few months with the Walker Kessler situation. They want to pay him an amount they feel is a fair number for a very good big who's not not been an all star yet. His representation at CAA believes that his value is significantly higher than that.

And this has a chance to be a very tense. I would say it's probably going to be a very tense restricted free agency. Okay. Bond Tems. Situation. You're good at this. Who are comparable players to Walker Kessler? Kind of put me on the spot with that.

Is Jared Allen a comparable player? Yes. Yes. I'd say he's a comparable player. Yes. Okay. Do you know what Jared Allen's contract is? I'm going to tell you right now.

I believe he's going into a contract where for the next three years he's going to be making $30 million a year. That's right. He signed a three-year extension for $90 million. Correct. A year ago. Correct. Maybe they would quibble with that. Maybe both sides would quibble with that.

Can I tell you what the jazz have on the table or at least the neighborhood? please. Okay. Five years, roughly $140 million. Yeah. So what is that? That's a perfectly fair deal. It's $28 million a year.

I mean, I wrote a few weeks ago that the... Would you say Yaku Pertil is a comparable player? No. Yacquharttel is better than Yacquiportle. That extension was rough. Well, I'm just saying, I mean, that's... Oh, but again... He makes 28.

Jared Allen is a reasonable number. Look, here's the deal. Walker Kessler is a very, very good player. Very good defensive center. very good piece long term got a chance to be a really good player he obviously just had the shoulder surgery this past year he's missed some games a couple years before that and he's a restricted free agent and somewhere where there's not a ton of cap space and as a result of that he's probably going to be kind of annoyed restricted for agency which by the way all sorts of guys forever have been annoyed

restricted for agency so if he gets offered some deal in the neighborhood of four for 120 or five for 140 or somewhere between you know 27 and 30 million dollars or 25 and 30 million dollars a year over three or four years or five years, I think that's a reasonable outcome for everybody. I can understand why Walker Kessler thinks he's worth more than that. I can understand why the Jazz don't want to pay him more than that. But I feel, you know, and look, maybe he goes into free agency and gets some huge offer from somebody because he is a very talented player

and he does offer real size and room protection, which a lot of teams need. And, you know, maybe Brooklyn or Chicago or the Lakers or, you know, some team that needs a center that has money or creates money and goes and does it. But I would say like anything else, sort of like the honest trade discussion we spent a lot of time on the podcast earlier, if there was some sort of deal like that sitting there waiting for Walker Kessler right now, we would be hearing anything about Walker Kessler being frustrated with the process, right? Because Walker Kessler would be preparing to sign some giant offer sheet. So that would lead me to believe that I don't think there's going to be all that tense, ultimately, because there's not. Maybe in the end, but right now it's there's going to be, there's going to be frustrating. about it, but I would say the tension would more come from Walker Kessler gets five for two

or four for whatever, 190 from somebody, something like near max or max deal. And the jazz have to decide, okay, are we going to really go like into the second apron with this team or are we going to figure out some trade, sign and trade, are we going to let Walker walk or what are we going to do, right? I think short of that, there will be some short-term frustration and Walker will get signed to make a lot of money and he'll end up fitting in great with this jazz team that I think is going to be really good and it'll probably end up being not quite water under the bridge but it'll be like many many other restricted free agent situations in the past where we look back on it and it all worked out okay.

Storytime. Ooh, I like story time. Brought to you by SoFi. Get your money right. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. One of my first significant stories that I had to do in my NBA beat reporting career was in 2002. I thought we were going to talk about current jazz front office man, Carlos Boozer. Oh, that's a whole other restricted story. I thought that's what we were going to talk about.

That was when Rob Polinket didn't talk to me. You mean, when Rob Polinket didn't talk to me for a decade, that's a different story. That's a different story. That's a different story for a different day. We'll see where Cambooser gets drafted. Anyway, 2002, I was but a cub doing some help covering the Cleveland Cavaliers. And they had this restricted free agent who wanted to sign an offer sheet and get away from Cleveland named Ricky Davis. Ricky Davis.

And there was a young up-and-coming agent who represented him named Dan Fagan. And Dan Fagan, who was one of the biggest, fiercest sharks in the history of NBA agenting. This was just going to start. I mean the issue of agenting, period. Yes. I got him on the phone and he announced, Ricky is signing an offer sheet with the, with the timber wolves and he absolutely

does not want the calves to match. He doesn't want to be with Cleveland, whatever. He basically insulted Cleveland for 15 minutes. And I remember you know, because this was, my point on this is it was 2002, okay? Pre- Twitter. Right.

This was the thing. The calves matched the offer sheet and said, we'll see Ricky Davis at camp in the fall. I want to say five years later, Dan is representing another cavalier, restricted free agent, Anderson Verrajao. And Anderson goes, is it a holdout for six months? And he finally signs an offer sheet with Charlotte in December, Charlotte Bobcats.

And he calls me and gives me this long explanation about how Andy doesn't want to be in Cleveland. And he wants to leave LeBron in his prime. He doesn't want to be in Cleveland anymore. I want to get out of here. Don't want to be here. Blah, blah, blah. and the cab, I called Danny Ferry, who was at the time, and he said, he answered the phone saying, we're matching. That's why he answered the phone. He didn't say hello, he just said, we're matching. So I called Dan Fagan back and I said, Dan, the calves are going to match.

He's like, oh, I don't know if they should do that, Brian, you know, Andy's knee, and he's knee, they should take a look at his knee, you know, his knees. He was openly. He was bad-mouthing in an organization. And then he was basically saying that the cat should match because his own client has a knee injury, which he didn't. He was fine. My point is when it comes to offer sheets and stuff, for as long as time, for 20 years and 20 years in the future, people say and do things when it comes to offer to restricted free agents that is gnarly. Just think about the term, right? It's restricted free agency. That in itself is something that's going to cause frustration with people. Right. And so now we have a free agent, Walker Kessler, not even born yet I don't think when this stuff was going down. And we have a story in The Athletic yesterday by Sam Amick. quoting sources that say Walker Kessler would like to not play with it. What was the exact line? I don't want to... I mean, the short version is Walker Kessler is upset without the negotiates.

Right, it doesn't want to play for the jazz. Yeah. In other words, we want to be able to sign an offer sheet and you not to match or you'd be willing to sign and trade us. And that's been the messaging from his camp for a while. You know, they were not thrilled that the jazz didn't send him to Indiana when before the Pacers ended up trading for a visa zoo bots, which, by the way, That took away a potential destination.

The Wizards trading for Anthony Davis took away a potential destination. The trade deadline didn't help Kessler's positioning. And the jazz's thing is like, listen, we get it. It gets hairy and restricted free agency is not like a pleasant experience. But we're making, you know, I'm speaking as if I'm the jazz, we're making a very fair offer, the most dollars ever given to a big who's never been an All-Star. and, you know, if you can get a better offer, that's certainly your right,

and then it's our right to match, or not, depending on what the offer could be, but that's where it's tougher as a team like Lakers, for example. Right, but what Walker wants is to basically be allowed to sort of be unrestricted by saying I don't want to be with the jazz. Well, then I suggest that he waits until another CBA to get drafted. I know, I'm just saying.

And again, like there's the whole idea, well, he could sign the qualifying. offer. Well, he could and maybe he will. But again, I would assume he's not going to pass up $100 million in money to sign the qualifying offer and then wait and see what happens. Well, that's what the Jazz probably assumed, too. But the point is, is that the Jazz have to price in Walker Kessler on their salary sheet, and they have to price in Kiante, Georgia, on their salary sheet, and they owe $100 million a year to their front court, Markinen and Jaron Jackson. Well, and look, they've got Ace Bailey who's, you know, they're hoping to

continues to improve as a player. He's a top 10 pick. They've got the, you know, this guy they're going to draft, whoever it is is going to be owed a bunch of money right off the cuff. I mean, he's going to be making. A year almost, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, he's going to make a lot of money. So, you know, there's, it's, um, there's a lot of stuff for them to sort out, which is why you do have to be mindful of the money you're spending. And I, and I, and look, the fact is, like, they sped up their timeline in a variety of fronts, as we've been pointed out earlier with the Sharon Jackson Jr. trade. And one of the places they sped it up on is you have to be a lot more careful with all the dollars than if you didn't have that money on the books. Like, you know,

now you have to think about, okay, you got extra $50 million that six months ago. We didn't think the jazz are going to be spending. Like we thought the jazz were waiting. We thought they were going to be a cap space team. Right. We thought they might be an option for Austin Reeves. Yeah. Well, we're going to talk about the Lakers here in a second. But yeah, so let's talking about the Lakers in Austin, Austin, not just Austin Reeves, but Walker Kessler. By the way, the way the Dan Fagan, Danny Ferry story ends, the calves match the offer sheet, and two years later, Bergerjau becomes an unrestricted free agent. And they come to terms after three bloody years, Dan Fagan and Danny Ferry, two Irish men to the Corps, okay? And they have come to terms

on an agreement for Anderson Barajou after literally years of being at war with each other. And Danny Ferry calls me and he says, Dan Fagan is going to call you. I'm not allowed to talk. We agree that I would not talk about the terms of the deal. I would just want you to please ask a lot of questions about this deal. Okay? Can we agree to ask a lot of questions? Yes.

Okay. Dan Fagan calls me. Dan Fagin calls me. Brian, we're very excited to finally get this done. It's going to be it's five years and $16 million. if that's not exactly what it. Maybe it was for, whatever it was, it was something like that. And, you know, so we're very excited.

Andy's very back to be in Cleveland long term, blah, blah, blah. I go, hey, is the contract like all guaranteed and everything? Brian, I'm not going to get into that. You know, I'm not even supposed to be telling you how much it is, but out of respect to you, I'm going to tell you five years, 60 million, blah, blah, blah. So what I'm supposed to do. The agent is saying on the record is five years 60 million or whatever. So I report back then we did have Twitter.

I put it out there, Anderson Verjev, back to the Cavs, five years, 60 million or whatever it was. Okay, maybe it was six years, I don't know. Whatever the numbers were. Phone rings, Danny Ferry. God damn it. I told you to ask questions about this because the deal wasn't fully guaranteed and he didn't want it out there as $60 million.

He wanted out there, whatever, you know. I was a player who lived on a contract, you know, because Danny Ferry, as a player, he signed a 10-year contract. And he's like, I had to live with that all my life. And now this guy's going to have to live with this number, blah, blah, blah. So I make an amend to the tweet. The contract is not all guaranteed. Bing, phone calls, Day and Fagan.

God damn it, Brian. Do you know I've been negotiating this contract for three bleeping years? And I blah, blah, blah. And this is my work product. I'm 60. I'll never tell you another number again. Wham! Within five minutes, I had both Danny Ferry and Dan Fagan, who agreed to this contract.

Both mad at you. Both mad at each other, but I was in the way. Bam, hang up the phone. phone on me. I'm like, oh my God. Well, what a world. Verjeal ends up being an all-time Cavalier and he's working for the organization now. Okay, for the Lakers. That's kind of how this is going to play out with the jazz, except for the numbers are a hell of a lot bigger. That's right. And that's what I think is going to happen. At the end of the day, there's going to be a lot of money to grease it and probably Kessler. But if you are the Lakers. And the jazz are going to be

really good. If you are the Lakers, the Lakers are sitting here with theoretical cap space. And the reason we say theoretical cap space, because I know that, you know, for months now, you've heard about the Lakers $100 million in cap space. Here's a situation. When one of your free agents, his contract ends, okay, he still sits on your books at a certain number until one of three things happens. One, he is resigned. Two, he is renounced. Well, one of three things happen.

And one, he just sets on your books, whatever that cap hold is. Two, he's renounced. You say he's no longer our player. We don't have rights. We can't re-sign him with bird rights. Or three, he signs a contract, okay? So right now, the Lakers technically don't have any cap space. None.

Because LeBron has a massive cap-hold. Because LeBron's cap-holds like 60-something million. Ruehachamers' cap-holds like 20-something million. And Austin Reeves' cap-hold is 21 million. Now, the Austin Reeves cap hold is good news because Austin Reeves will sit on their books at $21 million, even if he agrees to a contract that's twice that. It will still sit on their books at $21 million and they can sign him last and be over the cap and be okay. The LeBron and Hachamura things are a problem. And it's a problem for two reasons.

One, obviously you have to do something with them, either sign them or wave them goodbye to actually get access to your cap space. And LeBron and Hatchamura are profitable, or our players who are very good contributors. Rui had a great three-point shooting season. LeBron still averaged 21, 7, and 6. Okay? And even if you're ready to move on from LeBron, if you're going to improve your roster,

you've got to replace the 21, 7, and 6, and then add to your roster. And if you're going to improve your roster and you say goodbye to Rui, you're going to have to replace his stretch for production. Okay. So that's why people in the league, when you talk to them, will refer to the Lakers as having, quote, phantom cap space. Because they do have it, but they don't have it. Okay. Now we come to the Lakers number one problem. Their number one problem is they don't have a starting level center, with all due respect to D'Andre. They need a defensive anchor desperately. Okay. Walker Kessler is a defensive anchor. Yep. the Lakers have cap space.

They could, knowing that the Jazz have an offer out there of 28-ish million, they could say, here's an offer over the top of that, okay? And they could do that. But we got a couple of problems. They'd have to renounce LeBron and Hatchamir to do that, number one. Or they'd have to get them into contracts that were pretty small relative to what they were. And do it quickly. They can't sign an offer sheet.

until July 6th. And then once an offer sheet is signed, the team who's got the restricted rights has two days to match it. And if the Lakers don't find out whether or not they're going to get Walker Kessler, but until July 8, they won't have anybody left to sign. So there's not going to be an offer sheet. If you want Walker Kessler, the only way you're going to be able to get them is by doing a sign and trade with the Jazz.

And I'm not sure, other than Austin Reeves, what you could offer in a sign and trade that's going to get you Walker Kessler. Yeah, I mean... Do you have any problem with this analysis? I would say, first of all, you've got to kind of figure out what is the number where the jazz would say too rich. And then is that a good... And then also you have the risk of overpaying for Walker Kessler. And so you first got to figure out that part of the dynamic.

And then you've got to figure out, you know, what's the value that the jazz would take back? you know, is there a situation, like, could it be picks and ball? Like, I don't know. I don't know the answers to those things. And so, yeah, that's complicated. Now, the emotion of it, but basically, I don't believe the jazz are going to be swayed by emotion. You know, I don't think the jazz are going to be swayed by the frustration and, like, oh, if he's back in Utah, boy, it's going to be a problem. Like the jazz say, we understand that there's tactics that have to be.

used and we're not going to be essentially bullied by him. So I think Walker Kessler would be a phenomenal fit for the Lakers. I think that makes a ton of sense. I just, the path is very murky to get him out of Salt Lake City

into L.A. Part of the reason why he'd be a good fit for the Lakers is why he won't be leaving Utah. So, you know, that's, again, it's restricted for agency for a reason. Yeah, which is why you say, I don't want to play for you anymore, Utah.

Well, I don't even know if he actually believes that. But as part of the strategy that you employ, that strategy is already playing out. The other challenge of the Lakers is, you know, the other kind of top centers who are available like Jalandur and also restricted. Now, certainly the Lakers have cap space. They can work out a trade with another team to trade for a center. They have tradable draft picks. They can certainly do that. But there's got to be some plan from Rob Polinka and his staff on how they're going to get a center this summer. Well, they got to get a bunch of stuff. I mean, they need a lot more athleticism.

They need a lot more perimeter defense. They need a real center. They probably need another ball handler, even if they bring back Austin Reeves, beyond just him and Luca. You know, I mean, they need a lot of stuff. Like, they had a fine year last year. Obviously, they got the second round. You know, won a playoff series, even with their main guys banged up like that.

It was an impressive season. On the other hand, they got, they had a no-hope series. against Thunder and they're, you know, if you're looking up the Western Conference standings, and again, when you got a guy like Gluca Dachich, the idea is to be competing for a championship, right? They're miles behind the Thunder and they're miles behind the Spurs. And those teams are younger and deeper with more resources and are only going to be getting better. And that's before they even actively try to get better. So it is going to be an immense challenge for the Lakers to try to catch up to those teams,

to those two teams in particular, because they don't have a ton of assets. They have some cap space, but not a ton, and there's not a ton of guys that you really are that excited to go spend it on. And that's before you keep the guys that are on the current team that allowed you to be pretty good in the first place. If you lose basically all them, then you're really starting from scratch.

And that's the same challenge that the timber wolves are staring at. It's the same challenge that the nuggets are staring at. It's the same challenge that the rockets are staring at, with the caveat that the rockets do have, significant draft assets moving forward. And by the way, it's also why give the Knicks all the credit in the world because certainly the belief around the league was that it was thunder and spurs and there was a drop off after that.

And the Knicks were able to have one of the most impressive playoff runs and finish off the spurs in five games despite trailing and double figures in all those games. But in terms of the teams in the West trying to catch up, there's a pretty significant Cliff after those top two teams that, as you mentioned, are loaded with young talent and, especially in the case of the Thunder, a ton of draft assets moving forward. And they've all got Biggs. Well, and the other thing to remember about the Knicks, too, it's worth pointing out just because of how they put their team together is that was a build that took place over several years,

right? And they added and they added and they added and they added over time. So to me, what I would say to the Lakers or to a Laker fan is that you're not catching the Thunder this year and you're not catching the spurs this year. And a rush to try to do that this year, to me, would be a very big mistake because there are too many things they have to do. And so you have to just start the process and keep adding as you go. Totally. Be smart about it as you go along. Which is why the probable thing is going to be LeBron back there. But also at the same time, though, this is their one swing with cap space because Austin Reeves has that cap hold now

that's going to be a big contract going forward. That's true. And I think for many years in the NBA, that was a valuable thing. The Knicks never had cap space. Do you have to have stuff to spend the cap space on? And there's not a lot of stuff out there to spend it on. The Thunder used cap space.

One of the reasons why the Lakers are in this position is because they haven't drafted well. Well, and listen, if Isaiah Hartnstein was leaving the Knicks this summer and the Lakers had cap space, yeah, go sign Isaiah Hartnstein, and that would be great. But that talent does not exist this song. Really, this is one of the things. The reason that the Thunder had Capspace

are in position to use it and then immediately win a championship is because they had drafted and developed. The Lakers have nobody to take. You're not replacing LeBron James, but the Lakers have no one to take Rue Hachemur's spot, who's making $6 million. They don't have a center that they drafted and developed

that's ready to graduate to be their starting center. No, you have the Lakers during that series against a Thunder basis saying, those two guys waving towels at the Thunder's bench, they'd be our seventh and eighth men. But the Lakers had back-to-back picks at 17 in 23 and 24.

They drafted Jailette Hood-Hugh-Shafino and Dalton Connect. Like, those are two zeros. And if they, you know, and there were good players drafted after both of those guys. And when the Hitchafino draft, Jaime Hockas and Brandon Pajemsky were both drafted right after Jalen Hood-Javino.

Like, those guys would be those guys would be players that would certainly help right now. You go to the year after that when they drafted Dalton Connect at 17. I mean, let's see who was, I mean, Jacoby Walter just was starting for Toronto in the playoffs. Jalen Tyson was drafted after that. Kishon George's drafted after that. You know, they're like, if those two picks had turned into rotation players, you would feel differently about where the Lakers are at.

There's just not a lot of talent currently on the roster. And by the way, they've traded some of these picks. Like they traded picks for Anthony Davis and they won a championship. That means never having to say you're sorry. They made a good pick in 22 with Max Christie in the second round. They traded him. Trade for Luca Dantitch, which you would do, for sure. But I'm just saying, like, part of the reason they're in this spot where they're having difficulty.

And by the way, they're not desperate because they're in Los Angeles. They have Luca Dantzich. they won 53 games. They were the number three, or I guess the number four seed. They've got Luca and they've got a co-star with Luca in Austin Reeves. Right. So they're not desperate.

But I would say, to me, there is not a path to them being good enough next year. And so what I think the goal needs to be this summer is to find as many building blocks for going forward as they can and then keep themselves in play to keep adding more after that because this is something that's probably going to take a couple of years to really get to the point where they can be really competitive.

And look, maybe they can't get to a point where they're really competitive with those teams because of where their situation is at. But trying to rush into it this summer and saying, well, the Lakers got to get this and got to get this and got to get it all done now, that to me would be a situation that would lead them to not being close enough to the Thunder or Spurs anyway, and then also not having an ability to keep getting better in the future. And I would look at the NICS and how they did this over three or four years. It kept methodically adding to the group over time as a more plausible path to,

eventually getting where the Lakers hope to get back to. Hold on, though. LeBron James is still a legitimate All-Star. Like, he's still a top 25 player in Lee. What you're saying doesn't, like, I don't think they can do what you're saying and bring LeBron James back next year. Well, it depends.

It just depends. Yeah, I'm not saying, I'm just saying, like, find God, just go out and find, I'm saying, like, find players on the margins, find low-cost players that you can develop into God. I'm not saying that doesn't mean you can't bring LeBron back, but it's the whole idea of they just, you have to just find as many gains as you can this summer.

Like to Brian's point about the center thing, I don't think they desperately have to go get a center this summer because guess what, if there's not a center that's good enough to be a difference maker this summer, blowing assets on a center to get a center that's not ultimately going to be good enough, to me doesn't make sense. And this is where it comes to with LeBron sony.

If they came to LeBron and said LeBron, if you reduce your salary from $50 million to $20,000, 20 million, we can have Walker Kessler. LeBron would be like, hey, listen, man, I don't know for sure, but probably. He'd be like, listen, man, that sounds great. I would love to have Walker Kessler back there. Let's do that. But I'm not sure they're going to be able to say that.

I'm not sure they're going to have that. Now, maybe there's a trade. Maybe there's a trade for a center that they can get where they say, LeBron, we can trade for this guy. Would you be willing to take a $20 million salary if we can trade for this guy? And LeBron might be able to say, yeah, you know what? like I'll take 20 million. What I think LeBron doesn't want is them to say, hey, LeBron, we're going to offer you a dollar over the mid-level exception. You take it and we'll do with the money

what we will. They want, LeBron wants to be a partner. Not necessarily picking the player, but he wants to be a partner in it. They want him to. He doesn't want to take a discount to save a money. He wants to take, if it's a discount, then it's because you want to be a, you go to the Ross. You go to LeBron in partnership, you know, at this point. And I think there's a reasonable chance they can get there. We have two weeks until the end of free, until the start of free agency. The players are allowed to talk to their teams right now. LeBron and the Lakers will talk. And I would suspect that they are going to come to a place that they both can live with. They may not both walk out of the room thrilled, but I think that's the most probable thing that will happen.

The only pushback on saying all that you said, which I think is right, is that, again, I don't think it should be about the Lakers have to a center. That's fair. They have to get a center at some point. Yes. It doesn't have to be by July 10th, but they do need to get one at some point. Yes. My only point is that the goal for the Lakers this summer should be to upgrade their roster

talent however possible and wherever possible because they have a lot of holes. And I don't think it should just be, well, they got to get a center. They got to do whatever they can to get a center right now because they got to have a center right now. If they can get two or three good 3-&D wing players and they don't get any center upgrades this summer and those guys are part of their team for the next three or four years, I think that's just fine too. They have a lot of holes to fill.

And I think the goal this summer just has to be to start filling holes wherever they can and then see where they're at and then keep building and filling in from there. Because there's just not enough, they don't have enough assets and salary cap flexibility to get to a place where they can fill them all now. So it should just be how can we make the team as good as possible for the next few years this summer? and then how do we keep adding to that going forward? We've got to do all this stuff now because we've got cap space now. We've got a couple draft picks now.

Let's try to build a team that's really ready to go right now. Because if they do that, they're just not going to have enough. They're going to blow their assets and then they're not going to be good enough for the next four or five years anyway. Now, one thing I can assure you is as long as Luca Donch, which is in his prime, the Los Angeles Lakers will be a preferred destination for any center looking to move. Certainly should be. Now, how exactly you get them there, that's a different discussion, you know, but I'm just telling you. There won't be a shortage of Biggs who would like to run pick and roll with Luca.

I agree. All right. We jumped into the offseason. We were relieved of having to talk about only a couple of teams. And so now we're off and running. A marathon pod to start the all season. I know. I know.

Jackson's like wrap it up. All right. Thank you so much to all of our producers, Tucker, Mark, Jack. and Miles. Thank you very much to McMahon and Bontems. Thank you for watching and listening to The Hoop Collective. We go into the offseason with the unknown. Who knows where we will all be in a couple of weeks' time? We'll find out. Adios Nios. Hey, y'all, it's Kelly Clarkson with Wayfair. Ever order furniture online and wonder what if? Like, what if it doesn't hold up? That sofa was four days old. You should have ordered from Wayfair. With Wayfair, there's no what if. Just style you love and quality you can trust. Visit Wayfair.ca. Every style, every home