Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Can Cavs Figure It Out For Playoffs? Watch Out For Boston & Is Detroit Ready For A Finals Run?

Episode Date: February 23, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Thunder getting a shorthanded win against the Cavs including if Cleveland will be able to figure out their rotations in time to make a deep playoff run. Next, we talk about more inexplicable losses from the Wolves before diving into a tough loss for the Lakers against Boston on Pat Riley’s day in LA. Finally, we discuss if the young Pistons will be ready to win the East this season or will a potentially healthy Boston be ready soon. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening, joining us from New York City,

where we went to see the Knicks play on Saturday night against the Rockets in a mildly interesting game. Tim Bontops. I mean, based off of the amount of teams that we can really lock in on these days, it was pretty high up on the interesting chart, I would say. It was a fun game. Yeah, what was the score in the fourth quarter, like 30? five to 12 or something like that. The rockets had more turnovers than fast.

Yeah, the rockets were up by a ton and then they fell apart. Their offense could use some work. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, Van McMahon. Howdy, partners. It's kind of a typical rocket's loss, to be honest with it. It's also why the rockets are not to be taken seriously as contenders until they get Fred Van Fleet back in full, which is next season. Well, and that was the message from the rockets after the game, from Eméidoka and from Kevin Durant. I mean, Kevin was a little more upbeat about it than he may,

who is pretty dour, has it tends to be when they lose. But, you know, he just basically said. Show me a day when E-May is not dour. I'd like to see. I very much enjoy E-May. But after this game, he's like, look, we've had way too many of these this year, and it's been a common refrain. We have turnovers, and we're off and gets static,

and we struggle late in games, which is what they've had happen a lot of times. Before we get started, though, I do want to shout out a couple people from this competition I was at in New Orleans last week. Got a lot of people there who were fans of the pod. A lot of people came up saying they listen all the time, including a bunch of the participants, which was pretty cool.

Well, big with nerds. Well, a lot of them even said they liked you, McMahon. I'm big with nerds. I know. What you like me? Yes, that's exactly why I like you. I did think it would be interesting to run through the winners of the championship round, which was to negotiate a trade for Yonis Ten and Coupo.

Oh. Okay, bucks, pay attention. So it's interesting how they set this up. So they do four rounds of negotiations on a variety of things. One, first round was Mark Williams extension. The second round was a Trey Young deal with the Wizards, or new Mark Williams contract this summer, is restricted for agent.

The second round was a Trey Young deal with the Wizards this summer. Implying that there's not a deal with Trey Young's and Wizards are well. Little late on that one. Sure. The third round is an interesting one. you had to come to a contract with Sondro Mamushvili with the Rabders. Did you have to spell it? A lot of the, a lot of the got.

And when I was sitting in the judge accessions for that one, there was just a lot of Sandros that were said. Mammu. That's what they call Mammu. And then there's also a preliminary rounder. You had to do some stuff with the jazz. And then the championship round is the three teams to get the highest scores from the judges through the earlier rounds.

All compete against kids from Tulane, from the Tulane Sports Law Program, who are running the thing. And the three guys who were involved with that, Brandon Wolf, who was this the pod. And then the two guys who negotiated it were Griffin Gum and Constantino Velas. So they were the Bucks negotiating against teams from Notre Dame,

Indiana, and Syracuse. Syracuse. I am very disappointed to say that the winners, by a landslide, very comfortable margin, were the three guys from Syracuse. Oh, gracious. Who did a fantastic job. I even told them, I said, listen, guys,

I'm going to have to go on the podcast and say Syracuse won this competition. It did great. Well, listen, Syracuse got to win something during this past season. Well, all three guys were great. They also know the pod. Gavin Stein, Liam Roberts, and Sam Otley. They were the only ones who came to a deal. And I thought the deal was a pretty interesting deal.

So the Raptors got... I thought you were going to say there were four rounds of Janus negotiations because I've been witnessing that myself. That would be a good way to do it. The only deal that got consummated, though, was Janice and Bobby Portis to Toronto in exchange for Brandon Ingram, R.J. Barrett, Colin Murray Boyles, first round picks in 26, 31 and 33, 30 and 32 swaps, and second rounders in 2029 and 23rd. Which, as I said to them, I think if we reported a Raptor's trade... And that works, that's a legal trade? It is a legal trade. And as I said to those guys, if we reported a Raptor's trade for Janus,

That was a pretty realistic trade by everybody involved. How many picks again? I was yelling at kids. 2026, 2031, and 233 first, and then 2030 and 2032 first swaps, all in pretend. So the 26th pick this year, I think they, because it would have been at the draft. I think they said it was the 21st pick in the draft this year, I think. So four future first, or two future first, two future swaps, Murray Boyles, Ingram, and R.J. Barry. And who decided this was the way?

bid. Bobby or who is who is the... Well, they negotiate and then come to an agreement or don't. I see. The other trade that the Notre Dame people put on the table that I probably would have took if I were then was Scotty Barnes and Archie Barrett for Yonis straight up, which is an interesting. Excuse me? They wouldn't take Scottie.

I mean, first off, they're not offering Scotty Barnes, so... Well, I would have done that. But that, for a variety reasons, that trade didn't get done. But the one trade that was, was that one, which I thought was a pretty good trade. It made a lot of sense. As long as we're shouting out, the songs we're doing this at the start of the pod, and losing listeners. That's for shouting out young people making accomplishments.

I want to shout out another friend of the podcast. He's never been on, but we're going to rectify that. Tuesday night on Peacock, John Fanta will be calling his first NBA game for for Peacock slash NBC. And it's wolves at Blazers. Good for John. That's great. And Fanta, if you follow college basketball at all, you probably know who he is.

Phantus from Cleveland. Obviously. Hashtag Calf's Corner. The young, sort of, I don't know, does Ryan Rucco still count as being young? No. No. I think he's young.

No. He's been around too long down. He doesn't count as young anymore. Sort of the next generation of, you know, of great NBA play-by-play guys, all of whom we have good relationships with. We've got Noah Eagle,

who's already doing it. You've got Ryan Rucco, who, I know, he's, Not exactly a neophyte. Perch is great. And I'm a big fan of the pod. Are we count Drew Carter in there? Do we shoot you, you know, Jackson?

No, we don't. I don't know. No, because I have asked Drew for a favor, and he's yet to fulfill that. And so if I get the favor I asked for it, we don't need to give Drew any more confidence. He's got worlds of confidence as it is. John Fanta is on the list, and if you don't know who he is now, you're going to. So get on the bandwagon early. All right.

Speaking of Rucco, he was in Oklahoma City today, which you were not McMay. And you couldn't make the trip for this game. Didn't care about the Cavs? The IT department's got a business trip this weekend. So I was being a Uber driver and I'm a little bit hoarse from yelling at kids all weekend. What he was saying is he doesn't think the Cavs rate. No. That's what it sounds like to be.

Listen, you got to take that up with the IT department. I would have been up there. I would have been up there to watch, you know, the Cavs give up 121 points to a team that was missing. It's three best ball handlers and offensive initiators, including the reigning MVP and an all-MBA player. I would say they are missing four of their seven best players. Yeah. And honestly, seriously, though, for the Thunder to score 121 points,

like, yes, hey, Kaysen Wallace has shown, you know, he's taking advantage of this time where they've missed so many guys to show and to develop some playmaking stuff. He had his first double-double of his career with 10 assists. Let's not assume that everybody knows what happened. So the Thunder playing against the cabs. Listen, Windows got to go through the decimation of the calves. The calves who were.

The calves had won 11 of 12 coming in on a seven-game win-street. Come into Oklahoma City. No Jalen Williams, J. Dub, no Shade Gildis Alexander. Alex Caruso was a scratch for this game as well as. AJ Mitchell. You sprained his ankle on top of the abdominal strain. Right. So they're missing.

you know, a whole swaths his ankle on top of his abdominal. Yes. Go on. Yeah. Unfortunate that he injured his ankle while recovered from his abdominal. Is that accurate? Did I say that correctly? Yeah.

The calves were as healthy as they've been all season, obviously on a hot streak. Evan Mobley, who's just coming back off of a calf strain, is on a minute restriction, but he played. And the, I think the thunder got up 25 to 8 in this game. And I don't think they ever trailed. If they trailed, it was like very briefly in the opening seconds. Actually, take that back. The calves took the lead on them in late in the third quarter. Yeah, I thought so. Right. You're right. Anyway, they were an extremely impressive victory from Oklahoma City. I think there's quite a bit to take away from what we saw to the calves in this game. But like, let's be honest, this is a potential finals matchup. I mean, I'm not predicting it. No hotel rooms have been booked in Cleveland. But I like one team's odds and not the other. But yeah. All right. Well, just the other day, the calves were called for by BP. which you couldn't wait to read out as a 5% team.

I'm one to tell you, nerds get stuff wrong all the time. Well, anyway, this was a, you know, this is, look, Saturday afternoon ABC game. And the calves were as hot as they've been all season. They come in and the Thunder handle them. And extremely impressive performance by Oklahoma City's collective. I think they had eight different guys hit three-pointers in the first half alone. Isaiah Joe had one of his best. He started, I mean, would you say he started at the three or started the two? Like he, I mean, they started three, yeah, they started three guards.

I mean, they started Lou Dorr, Case and Wallace and Isaiah Jones. I'm not sure who he was guarding coming out of the gate. If he was, because the Cavs started big. The Cavs started Dean Wade, Jared Allen, Evan Mobley, and I, and I, and Blue Door, it was guarding Donovan Mitchell. So I think that Isaiah Joe technically was the three. And in the first quarter, he hit four threes as the starting three, I believe. Here's all you got to say about this game. The Thunder scored 40 points in the first quarter and had 17 points off turnovers in the first quarter alone. So they had 52% of their threes.

They got on top of the calves and they just, you know, they sort of coasted away from there. But, you know, even though the guys were out, the opening few minutes of this game felt like for the first time maybe in a while, these to me, the thunder we've been used to seeing the last couple of years where they create a bunch of turnovers, they get out in transition, they're banging threes, the crowd is going crazy, they got up by 20, it felt like in two minutes, and it was just this tsunami wave of pressure and perimeter shooting that, like I said, if you go over the rest of the game, the cows got back in the game, they got a competitive down the stretch, like, you know, they did a pretty good job from there,

but they got in such a giant hole in the first five, six minutes that they just really wasn't a great way for them to get out of it. Well, and if you don't have guys who can initiate offense in the half quarter, you don't have your best guys to initiate offense. A pretty good way to overcome that is create a bunch of turnovers and get out in transition or kind of semi-transition. Yeah, I'm not going to say it looked like the Thunder that we're used to seeing, because the Thunder we're used to seeing have a guy who's scoring 32 points per game

officially. I just spent that first quarter when it was like, 27 to 5 at one point. Yeah, just the swarming defense. Yeah, that's what I meant. I didn't mean it looked exactly like they do with Shea plays. But it was the kind of overwhelming run. We've seen a lot from them the last couple of years,

even though those guys weren't out there as part of it, especially those turnovers. Like, I mean, you've written, you've talked and written about it a bunch, Tim. When they're turning you over, especially 10 times in a quarter, but a lot of times like that, it's going to totally change the way the game is going.

Yeah, I think one of the things I've said this, routinely for the last couple of years. However, it doesn't stop being true, and it was true again today. You can do your film study on the Thunder. You can prepare for them. You can think that you're ready for the way that they get after you defensively,

but you just ain't. And if you are coming to that game, not recognizing that they cover more ground, you've just got to, you throw a pass that gets through on 28 other teams. you can't assume it's going to get through on them. They just get their hands on more balls than anybody else in the league. Well, and the other thing they do is they make you play in crowds.

Like if you talk to the Thunder about creating turnovers, they don't say, hey, we've got to create X amount of turnovers. They say, we've got to make teams playing crowds and be aggressive doing that, and then the turnovers are going to come. But again, like we talked about them missing their three best, you know, their three best ball handers. Case of Walls is, you know, he's, he's their best turnover creator. But at Caruso's second, Shea's high in that list and J-dub's high in that list.

And so for them to be able to, you know, have this kind of performance without all those guys against a team that's got two elite initiators, although Hardin will turn it over something. That's pretty impressive. Listen, man, Isaiah Joe is going to not play in playoff games this year at times, okay? He is a borderline rotation player for this team. He had five steals and hit six threes. Yeah, he is a guy. you know, if you go by the old Pat Riley saying trust eight, what is it, play eight, trust seven. Yeah.

That line. He occasionally will be the guy who gets trimmed in that, but he's also a guy who can go six of 11 from three. I'm just going to tell you, like, Jared McCain didn't play a ton of minutes in this game, but that's a guy that, you know, it's another guy where I don't think he is going to get minutes in every playoff game. that sucker was out there getting his hands on balls and hitting threes. I think he hit two or three threes in this game. And look, Nikola Topic is just getting his feet wet in the NBA. I have no idea. He may be, by the end of the season, he may be on that list too.

More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Anyway, for Cleveland, one thing I'm going to tell you in watching them, even though they've been playing very, very well, they are a team that in the last week of February here, I don't think Kenny Atkinson has a good feel of how to deploy the team at all. I mean, there are good problems. You know, there have been times this year where he's been missing six or seven rotation players, and he's been stitching his lineup together with multiple two-way guys in his starting lineup.

So I don't want to compare it to that back when they, you know, at the mid-season point, they were three games over 500. They were 22 and 19 at the midway point. So they were, you know, basically an average team for a long time. But I said, they have not been average for the last month. However, he was running lineups out there tonight that, you know, I could tell, you know, really he, you know, if they played together at all, they really didn't have a good feel for each other. He had the kid, one stretch of the game where he had Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, their two starting bigs both off the floor at the same time. And I'm fairly certain that at least for a possession or two that Isaiah Hartenstein and Chad Holmgren were both on the court for the Thunder.

Like they just had a mismatched lineup out there. They were lost. Jalen Tyson, who's been one of the best stories for the calves all year. Really, one of the reasons why the calves were willing to make some of the deals that they made midseason. His minutes have basically been vastly reduced, and it's just because he's sort of the odd man out. So, you know, like he had Dennis Schrooter playing alongside James Harden at one point. Another time, he had Dennis Schroeder playing alongside Donovan Mitchell. So while the calves have gotten a lot of, you know, productive.

play with this group and also just in general. Bontems, I kind of, in a weird way, they're almost starting over a little bit. And whether or not you can start over and be a serious contender in February is up to debate. But, you know, in some ways, I feel like they're almost back in October. Yeah, I mean, if you go back to the start of the season to now, right, they essentially have four new rotation players. I mean, Nick Juan Thomas has been on the team, but, you know, he's come into the rotation

as the year has gone along. They obviously traded Darius Garland with James Harden. And then they got Dennis Schroeder and Keanu Ellis for DeAndre Honor. So try to work three or four new pieces into the team, midway through the season, three of them at the trade deadline, is a lot. And, I mean, there really hasn't been a team that's made the finals and won the title that's made a trade like Darius Carlin for James Hardin

since the Pistons traded for Rashid Wallace. I wouldn't count the Marcosal trade for Toronto in that kind of realm. You know, a teams have obviously made moves at the deadline to get better, but not a trade where you're getting a guy like James Harden, who's going to have the ball as much as James Harden, who's going to be involved as much as James Harden. There's a reason why it doesn't happen a lot. And obviously the Cavs are playing great.

I was talking to somebody yesterday. The Cavs final 17 games are unbelievably easy. Like they could go 15 and 2 or 14 and 3 easy to close the season. We'll be talking about that. Listen, I think they've got a really good chance to have a really strong finish, like we talked about the other day, and get a top two spot in the east in the playoffs. But, you know, yes, it is going to be a work in progress.

They do have to sort some stuff out. It's not a huge deal that they had a horrible start today and lost this game. But, you know, they are working against recent history of the league at minimum to try to put this all together. And it's going to be interesting to see how it shakes out over the next couple of months. I mean, not even just the recent. history of the league, period. I mean, before Rashid, in terms of like a real superstar who's traded mid-season and impacted the championship, Ron, I think you've got to go all the way back to Clyde Drexler. Yeah, it's the one before it, I would say. That's 30 years ago. And it's been a while.

You know, one thing that had really been rolling for the, for the Cavaliers is Jared Allen had been in his best, I would think probably his best offensive groove of his career. And even before Hardin got there, but obviously Hardin's a guy who, you know, he can maximize. a rim-running big man. We've seen that over and over and over again throughout the course of his career, which is why, hey, Dwight Howard, maybe you should have done some rim-running in Houston.

Anyways, Jared Allen got six field goal attempts today, you know? I mean, the, like the Thunder defense, and specifically the combination of Hartnstein and Chet basically shut that down. Yeah, one of the things that was so apparent in the last month was his just aggression. That's the thing he's been criticized for often by Cavs fans is they, you know, it drives him crazy where he turns into a wallflower

in high-leverage situations. And that hasn't been happening. He's shown incredible aggression. One of the things has been happening, and, you know, Hardin's played, you know, just a handful of games. But when Hardin comes down the lane and throws you a lob, like you can't just not go get it, you know, you're going to have to go get it. You're going to get embarrassed. And so Hardin is sort of repeatedly throwing him open. And, you know, one of the things about Hardin that, you know, is, you know, you have to learn as his teammate. You know, you know the triple threat where you have a, you know, you can dribble pass or shoot, you got the ball with the live dribble.

When Hardin drives, you know, he's got a triple threat as a driver because he can get fouled, one of the greatest of all time getting fouled. He's got a complete package of his stepbacks or pull-ups or whatever. And then he's just got an incredible passing game. And so when he's driving to the basket, everybody on the court has to be, has to be active. And Alan has to do that. and that's something that he's going to have to work on. So before we switch topics,

I thought I would bring up something to happen tonight. I was obviously in New Orleans over the weekend. Sixers got there on Saturday, played the Pelicans. Pelicans had lost to the box the night before. Second night of a back-to-back, you'd think the Sixers would be able to take care of business. They did not. They had a horrible second half.

They ended up getting run out of the building by Jordan Poole and the Pelicans. No Joel in that game. No, Paul George, obviously suspended. Today, the Sixers go from New Orleans to Minnesota. Second night of a back-to-back. No Joel Embed. No Paul George. Minnesota's rested. Thank you, hey.

No Rudy Gaubert because he got himself suspended again. That's fine. But Minnesota at home rested playing a Philly team without those two guys. You think Wolves had a pretty good chance to win that game. Final score of this game, fellas, 1-35-108 in favor of the Philadelphia 76ers. Minnesota Tibberwolves lead the league in just inexplicably awful. They're a confounding team. It's unbelievable.

It's who they've been in the last three years. and they've managed to get their stuff together to win a couple of playoff series the last two years. But this is why I don't consider Minnesota to be a threat in the West right now. They've got one of the top, I don't know, four or five players in the Western Conference

and is a bona fide superstar. But, you know, for whatever reason, they're extraordinarily frustrating. They continue to be an immature team. You know, I'm sure the active pursuit of a superstar for the third straight transaction cycle in a deal that would have relocated a whole bunch of guys

to not boost team morale. But Tim Connolly wouldn't be aggressive to make massive change if this team was giving him reason to believe that they were worth doubling down on. Well, and look, last night, Saturday night, the Pelicans hit a ton of threes.

Sixers couldn't hit a shot. Tonight, Sixers were 57% from three. Wolves struggled from three. But like, I'm sorry. I'm sorry, Minnesota, this is not like a one-off for Minnesota. This has happened countless times this season. And it's, I mean, look, it's why, like right now in the standings, Minnesota is flirting with not being in the top six in the Western Conference. There are only a couple of games ahead of Phoenix, who we'll probably talk about later.

They've had some bad luck the last couple days. But like, they should be fighting with these other teams for top four in the West. They're talented enough to be in that mix. And they just have not been able to string it together today, latest example of it. Yes, Minnesota, again, very confounding team. You mentioned Pat Riley a little while ago, McMahon. Pat Riley Day in L.A. today. Statue unveiled at Crypto.com Arena.

They got blown out by Boston. Geez. They did. They did. The ninth statue in the eighth Laker, LeBron, I don't know if LeBron's getting a statue. Kobe has two statues, one with Gigi, which is a special statue.

But do you guys know the eight players depicted, or I guess eight players and one coach now depicted. Wait, we're not counting Chick-Harn as one of them. Okay, you're right. I want to apologize. Who are the eight men who are? You just said three. We've got Riley, we've got Kobe, we've got Chick-Rae.

They put Riley right between Kareem and Magic. And I will say, the poster or the statue, I wonder of Riley, because Dwayne Wade was up there on the dais today. I would love to know because Riley talked about the process of the statue and going and visiting the place where they made it in Arizona

I'd love to know what lessons were learned from the Dwayne Wade statue experience Have somebody else do it? Honestly though those guys have done a ton of them It might have been the same guy The quality of the statue is not the key It's the fact that doesn't look like him

The statue is opposed of Riley putting his fist up which in the Showtime era was the play call for throw the ball to Kareem. We want a skyhook here. Get at the ball on the block. And he's in between Kareem and, well, I don't think this will be a hard one to call. He's in between the Kareem and magic statues.

Also, I just said that a minute ago. And the magic statue is passing it to Kareem, you know, in theory for a skyhook. So Kareem, Magic, Shack, Kobe, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor. Elgin Baylor. Good. To Kern. Cicern. Is that it? I think he got them all. The hard one was Elgin Baylor. Why is that a hard one?

Well, just not everybody recognizes him because he sort of is between eras. You know, he was... Between eras. So it's interesting. I know it's the L.A. Lakers. You know, most of these guys are the Showtime era or the Kobe Shack era. George Miken has a statue in Minnesota. Is that? Am I accurate with that? I believe he does in the Target Center. I'm pretty certain on that. You could be right. I'm almost certain I've walked by that one on multiple. Okay. Laker fans usually are mad at me on this spot. Nine-foot-tall.

Browns-Mondent. Elgin'Bailer was between eras with the Lakers. Well, he was, you know. He was playing a title. He didn't win a title. He didn't win a title. Yeah, he was in the Jerry West era. Like, he was not in the, you know,

that team won one championship. Am I correct? He did not win a championship with the Lakers. He lost many times in the finals. Okay, that's my point. You want to parse it? I just... Hey, I just said, Lakers stands with me mad at you saying,

Elginn Baylor, one of the great Lakers and one of the great players in the league. I'll bet if you went to the crypto.com arena tonight and you asked the Laker fans to list the players who are in bronze out there, the Elgin would be last and the ones that they would name. No offense to Elgin. It's an incredible player. Wow. No offense to Elgin. Bob Pettuslander.

Really is. I don't even know where that George Mike and Statue is. I all the time. It's in the Target Center. It's in, yeah. Okay. Double checked. We walked by it many times.

You are correct. He is in a, I will say, he is in a Georgia, according to McTen. has all the details. He is depicted in a Georgia Armani suit. Of course he is. A crocodile leather belt. Yeah.

And a 1985 championship ring. As it should be. Wonder why they picked 85. Good question. Is that, is that the, you know, that's not the first showtime one.

No. It was like a third or fourth. Yeah. What was the second one, I think? Maybe it's, maybe I'm sure they buffed it up to him. Second or third.

Anyway, so it was a Riley day. He had a big party last night and spoke before the game today. Where he said he's no, he has no intention. He's 80 years old. He has no intention to retire. Anybody who knows what Pat Riley is, knows that's not a huge surprise.

Then the inside of the arena, the Celtics won by 30, or I guess 20, 22. This is great. I wish it went back to coat and ties, Riley said, of the NBA coach's current dress coat of team issued polos, quarters, zips, and sweaters. I think an audience wants to see somebody on the sidelines who looks like a leader, dresses like a leader, acts like a leader. I can hear Pat Riley giving that quote. I don't disagree, by the way.

If the head coaches want to be in coats and ties, that's fine. Like the assistants, especially the poor second row assistants who had to have all these suits. Like, no, man. None of the assistant coaches want to have to pack a bunch of suits for road trips. I can assure you of that. I get it, but I think Riley is probably right. I hate to sound like an old man. But I'm just going to say that, you know, twice in the last couple of months, you know,

once when I went to that game in Belgrade, and then I saw St. John's come in to play Creighton here in Omaha a few weeks ago in Petino. was wearing the suit and it strikes a different. It's different when you have the guy, when the coaches are in the suit, it's different. I also thought this quote about Redick was pretty interesting from Riley. Go on. I love JJ. I really do. He's a fiery guy. He could shoot the hell out of the ball. He was tough as nails. Sometimes I look back and I remember myself at that time and I look at JJ and I think they pick the right person. There's just a quality about him. I think that goes above and beyond. And they have a hell of a team for him right here right now with Dachach and Reeves and obviously with LeBron. And so I think Rob will continue with the new ownership to build that team and to compliment those players, but they have a great

opportunity, and I think JJ will be a great coach for it. He might just be nice, he might just be being nice, but essentially saying I see myself as JJ Redick as a young me is a pretty, pretty nice quote from Pat Riley to JJ, I would say. Well, Riley is, was a bit of a maniac when it came You don't say. You know, I mean, that was sort of legendary and that's what JJ is kind of known for, right? By the way, Riley was nowhere near the player JJ Redick was. No. But Riley's definitely being nice,

including LeBron as part of the Lakers' core moving forward. That's being nice. He also once again brought up that they could have, he wishes he would have had them for a lot longer in in Miami, which he has said many a time. Obviously, it's fair. Yeah, it totally mystified Pat that LeBron wouldn't just come back and keep trying to win there.

I think he misjudged. He misjudged his relationship with him, and he misjudged the way he could, what he would do to sort of get to him, inspire him or whatever. But, you know, I think, you know, what Pat was, I think, saying was if he has, you know, you've won two more titles. If you played the last 12 years in Miami, would you have more than two more? Well, I would say the one title that LeBron won in Cleveland outweighs the other three

that he won in his career combined. Well, I agree with that, but not everyone's going to agree with me. I think most people do. I'm one of these people who believes that not, I sort of talk out of both sides of my mouth on one hand, I believe that there is, I would never, ever dilute or degrade a championship. I believe all of them are precious in their own merit because I respect the process of how hard it is to win. That said, not all of them are created equal. Yes. No, both things are true. They're both, it's always an incredible accomplishment and some of them stand out more. Like, that's not, it's not to,

it's not to diminish any others, but like, you know, the calves snapping a 50-year city championship drought and coming from behind from 3-1 to beat a 73-win Warriors theme, that is a singular championship. The one Dallas won against Miami for a lot of ways, for a lot of reasons, is a singular championship. You know, there's other ones you could pick out over time that stand out more than others, but it doesn't mean the others are diminished. I will both pound the table to defend the fact that Durant's presence was a huge differentiating factor in the 2017 championship. 2018, not as much.

That team was just overwhelming against what was left to the Cavs. But in 2017, I don't believe the Warriors win without Durant, regardless of what people

might say about him joining that team. But I will tell you that the 2020 championship, the last championship the Warriors won, has a special place over 17 and 18

because of what they went through and how they had to completely build themselves back up from one of the worst teams in the league with the injuries and what? not. So whatever that's worth.

All these things are true. Yeah. They're true. And I think you're safe from the burner account without commentary. Well, I mean, I've had to defend Kevin so many times. Like, I don't want to tell you. I wish he would stop defending himself on social media. It's, I don't, I don't see how it benefits him whatsoever. And it just, you know, he says he doesn't want to talk about Twitter nonsense. He creates way too much of it. I don't understand why. But that's, Neither are nor there. Anyway, LeBron did come and see Riley before the game. They'd met in the hallway, and he gave him a hug.

More Hoop Collective podcast after this. As for the court, the Celtics are laying waste out in the West right now. They said they won this game by 22. Let me tell you the numbers that Peyton Pritchard has since he moved back to the match, which happened right around the trade deadline, right? Yeah, it happened when they came to Dallas was his first game off the bench. So tonight he had 30 points off the bench. I believe he was the leading score in the game.

I didn't look at the Lakers box score. Double check, but I believe he was. He had Jalen had 32. Oh, 32. Yeah. And Peyton had 30. 32 on 28 shots. Not Jalen's most efficient night.

Peyton had 30 on 14 shots. That's pretty efficient. Yes. 30 and 8 with 10 for 14 shooting and 6 for 9 from 3, which is pretty. By the way, he played 38 minutes off. off the binge. That's pretty rare. That's a number, obviously. He was there. He played more minutes than anybody. All right, but anyway, in his

game, by the way, his minutes, he played when he was a starter. He, uh, he averaged 33 minutes. As a reserve, he's averaging almost 34. So he's actually playing more minutes now than he was as a starter. But the point is, the role did change. As a starter, he averaged 17 points a game. Now, I want to point out, he was in a pretty big shooting slump to start this season. And so some of these numbers are going to be,

sort of carrying that slump as opposed to he was already moving out of it by the time we went to a reserve. Having said that, that's what it is. This year, when he started, he shot 35% from three. Off the bench, he's averaging 24 points, so 17 to 24. And his three-point shooting is at 46% in the seven games as a reserve. That is something to pay attention to. How many games you have to play as a reserve to be a six-man candidate? he's already started 48 games. I don't think it's good. He'll not be able to be, you'll not be able to be a candidate for that.

But yeah, I mean, and look, even since December 1st, if you take out the awful first four or six weeks he had shooting the ball, he's shooting 40% from the field and 38% from 3 on high volume. So he's been cooking for quite a large chunk of the season. And I mean,

this Celtics team, they continue to be incredibly impressive and resilient and, you know, like you watch this game. And, you know, obviously they've got Jalen and Pritchard, I mean, they put up half their shots to score more than half their points. But, you know, they've got Baylor Shireman, who was first round pick last year, out of Creighton,

didn't do a whole lot as a rookie. Comes back this year. He's been, you know, in and out of the rotation. But whenever they play him, he plays incredibly hard. He's flying around. Him and Hugo Gonzalez, their first round pick out of Real Madrid this year, those two guys come in and they played 43 minutes. And every minute they're on the court.

They're playing insanely hard and guarding and just doing all the dirty work all over the place. Nemes Keda has been fantastic for them as a strong. starter on a basically a minimum deal. Had 10, 12, and 3 blocks today. You know, there's been a great piece inside. Like, they've just done a great job of building out the roster with depth. And Jalen's had obviously a terrific year. We talked about him the other day as being on MVP ballots for a reason,

but just have to continue to say it. I think if Jason Tatum could come back and be just a rotation piece for them, not Jason Tatum of old, but just a useful player. It's going to be hard for me to pick against Boston in the playoffs with their experience. and their mental toughness, and as the one team that's gotten through the fire of all these teams before, you know, good luck beating these guys four out of seven if they can get Tatum back and keep this rolling.

Because, I mean, they've just been incredibly impressive all season. McMahon, did you see when Joe Missoula was asked before the game about Jason Tatum's practicing? He said it was something like he was at practice, something like that, act like he had no idea. So I wish I could,

I would like to give credit to whoever asked the question. I don't remember who it was. Did Jason Tatum practice yesterday? Yeah, he was at practice. Did he practice? Then just stared at him. He stared at him for about nine seconds, which I respect. He's just like, I'm not going to answer.

I'm not going to answer you. I'd rather him do that than BS. Mazzola enjoys like awkward, brief, or silent interactions with the media. So that's kind of part of his thing. He doesn't like it brief. He likes it long. It's long awkward silences. Oh, yeah, I'm saying like one or two word answers to.

Kate is really interesting. he absolutely dominated DeAndre Aiton. You know, one guy got, there was a lot of attention around DeAndre Aiton going to the Lakers this summer. Kada, I'm not even sure if we mentioned it when that happened this summer when he went to Boston. I guarantee you we did not. Yeah, Kada looks like a guy who can be a nice role player for the Celtics moving forward. And Aitn looks like a guy who they need to upgrade from in L.A. ASAP.

Here's all you need to know about Nimas Keda. Neumis Kada was a second round pick by the Kings and was on, I think, a two-way deal with Demmer is on their roster and got cut loose a couple of years ago. And the Celtics snatched him up on a two-way and developed them and then put them on a multi-year minimum deal and have turned him into a, again, is he Nicole Iokic? No, but he's a quality, he's a starting quality center in the NBA. Like that's, you look at Baylor Shireman and Hugo Gonzalez, those are late first round picks that are playing a real rotation role for them and have it success.

Jordan Walsh was a second round pick who has been playing rotation minutes for them. The Celtics have three guys in their rotation who they got out of the last three drafts, and the highest pick was 28. Yeah. Peyton Bridgers, another late first round pick who, you know, has developed into a really good player. You can find plenty of teams that have three players from the recent drafts who are in their rotations, but not who in the highest pick was 28. Yeah, no, it's, I mean, it's their player development program has been great, and they're over,

I mean, it's why they've been so good for so long. It's not just having the guys at the top. you've got to develop guys throughout your rotation. And they've done a great job. And again, it's just, it's been a tremendous coach a job. And I think Joe Missoula, by the way, Bobby Manning was the one who asked that question. I went and double-checked today to even credit. And Joe Missoula deserves a ton of credit too because, like, his single-minded competitiveness,

I think is a big part of why this hasn't just been a gap here. Like anybody who knows him, including me, like he was personally offended at the thought that they were going to just chill this year. not try to win or even that the idea of it was a thing. Not similarly. Apparently. Well, I mean, look, if they were healthy at the beginning of the year, who knows if their season's different. But, you know, the Celtics, from the beginning of training camp,

it was a universal message of we're going to try to win. We think we can be competitive. We're not messing around. And by the way, we remember all the people who said that we couldn't be good. And sitting here today, as we get to the end of February, it's hard to pick against them right now in the east. There's one team that I'm. I'm going to pick if they run up against them.

And we'll talk about the Pistons later. Real quick on the Lakers, they're in the red again on that point differential, Wendy. Minus 0.3. They are the one team in the league that has a winning record and a negative point differential. And it's funny, there's 12 games above 500 with a negative point differential.

That's hard to do. Because they're one of the best clutch teams in the league. It's largely because of Luca. Yeah, and there's also some luck there. They also have, this was their 19th double-digit loss of the season. 19th double-digit loss of the season. Just to put that in perspective, the only teams in the West that have more than that are the tanking jazz and the tanking

kings. That is not a title contending stat. And they didn't lose ground in the standings tonight because the Timberwolves lost, so they're tied with them. And the team right behind him, Phoenix, was coming out of the All-Star break, like giddy because they were finally going to be healthy. You know, they're like eight games over 500. They're finally going to be.

First time all season. Finally going to be healthy. And they got three players hurt in the first game and a half. Well, not even the first game of half. Grace and Allen spraying his ankle, I think, could shoot around before the game, their first game. Then Devin Booker hurt his hip and is going to be revaluing a week. And then Dylan Brooks on the second game, fractured his hand.

So, yeah, I mean, it's been fairly remarkable. They've had this season, they've had on a variety levels. especially with all the injuries they've had. But look, like Tim said, the Lakers are 16 and 19 double-digit games. They're 11 and 14 against teams that are 500 or better. And yes, they are a great clutch team, which is not a shock when you have Luca and you have LeBron, and you're going to get to the foul line.

You have guys who are going to make good decisions in those situations with all the experience they have. But there's a reason why point differential and net rating is a long-time indicator of how good a team really is. Because your clutch games, as Tim said before, are about a lot of luck and a lot of randomness. And consistently winning by a lot is a much better indicator

of how good your team actually is. And, you know, this game was a prime example. You watch the Celtics and you watch the Lakers. Yes, the Lakers have three superior talents, particularly on the offensive end. The rest of their team is not good enough to hang with these elite teams. Like, it's just not,

which is why a lot of these games end up sliding away from them like this one did, you know, pretty comfortably as the game played out. All right. Well, a team that has a pretty good point differential, second best in the league, is the Detroit Pistons. And they play on Monday against the San Antonio Spurs, who I think have maybe the fourth best in the league. I'll look up those official numbers right now.

Third best. Third best record in the league, yeah. What's the, what's that stat the 40-15? Second and fourth in point differential. 8.5. 40-20? 40-20? What's that?

What's that? If you get your 40th win before your 50th, 15th? 15th loss or what was that stat? I don't know the stat. I think there's a Pat Ryan thing. Your 40th win before your 20th loss. Anyway, the Spurs are 40 and 16. So, yeah, that's a con...

Listen, the spurs, they're contenders. Spurs have won eight in a row. Pistons have won five in a row. They play each other on Monday night. There's a Phil Jackson. There's a Phil Jackson stat. 40-20 rule posits that an NBA team must win 40 games before losing 20 to have a chance at winning this year's championship.

Phil Jackson's got to have a statue outside. there at some point too, doesn't he? That's complicated, but I would agree. But he won five rings there. Well, he should, whether he will, is another thing. Well, when your ex-fiancee is a team president, that's a little complicated. All right, and by the way, speaking of, I don't have like the full data here to do a full obit, but rest in peace, Doug Moe, who passed away last week, I believe he was 80.

Late 80s. 89? Incredibly colorful character was the coach of played in the league. We've mentioned those Nuggets teams a bunch in the past. We brought a real run-and-gun style, kind of one of the four-runners of Mike Dan Tony, him and Don Nelson, I would say both, really, brought pace and space outside of the 60s

when the game was super fast-paced to the league. And as we've talked about many times on the pod, had come up with the Doug Moe standings of taking your road wins and your home losses and that being like an indicator, another indicator of how good a team is. And, you know, I didn't personally know them, but anybody who had spent time around him,

he was always known as a very, very good and colorful character in the fabric of the league. Yes, definitely a man who was ahead of his time, 87. And since we talked about him occasionally over the years, I thought we would honor his memory. Yeah, I didn't know him personally, but those Nuggets teams he had were fun to watch. They sure were.

Sure were. Yeah. So my former colleague at the Akron Beacon Beacon Journal, Terry Pluto, So he is, he's at the, and the Cleveland Plain dealer, but he wrote a famous book that came out 30 some years ago called Loose Balls.

Great book. Which is an oral history of the, of the ABA. If you're one of the young fellows who I saw last week who probably has no idea of what the ABA is,

go, go find Loose Balls by Terry Pluto and read it. You will laugh a lot. And this is McMan telling you, this McMahon telling you to read something. The thing about this book is, if you read this book, you'll be like, how did the, how was this allowed to be written?

Like, you know, everybody's so protective of everything these days. Like, oh my gosh, you know, you know, you insult the player. And next thing you know, like the player blasts you on, you know, on social media or whatever. You would not believe some of the stuff that people just talked about that went down in the ABA. Anyway, Doug Moe. The stories that come out of the ABA just in general are incredible. Like, it's, it was just a, it was this renegade league. It only lasted a few years.

And, like, there was just all kinds of chaos that came out of it. Terry is written like 38 books. I actually was with him last week in Akron, and I asked him how many books he's written and he doesn't even know. He seriously has lost track. I don't think that's going to happen with me, one. And sticking.

But Loose Balls is truly iconic. And anyway, he's featured, he was an ABA player. So he has some moments in Loose Balls. Anyway, I would love to have Victor Wenba, you know, an oral history of Victor Weniamah's career, went in the end because I'll bet there's some, it was some good stuff in there. And so we got, Benvin Yama now, unfortunately, the Pistons are, Duren is still suspended for this game. Is that correct? This is his last time.

I think it's his last game. He played, he played it yesterday. Oh, he did? I believe. I'm pretty sure. He was talking, yeah, pretty sure. Yeah, no, he came back yesterday. He had 26 and 13 and 29 minutes and it went over the Bulls yesterday.

How many minutes did Rob Dillingham play in that game for the Bulls? Rob Dillingham played eight minutes. Having trouble understanding what's going on there, Jens. Well, having trouble. Welcome to Bullsland. Well, listen, the Dillingham thing, unfortunately is going to linger in Minnesota for a while because they gave up a pick and a swap to get him in the draft.

I suspect as the season goes along, Rob is going to get plenty of playing time. I'll just leave it at that. Well, so I'm saying, like, what are we doing? Playing Josh Giddy. They're playing Josh Giddy right now, and they also got a million guards. So Anthony Simon's hurt his wrist,

so now that down one of them. But I don't think we're going to have to worry too much about Rob Dillingham minutes as the season progresses. I'll just, I'll say that. So McMahon, anyway, sneaky big game, speaking of potential finals matchups, why not this one? I mean, yeah, listen, the Pistons,

I don't know what the odds are right now. Maybe Jackson and the lads can help us with that. But the Pistons have established themselves as, at least in my mind, these strong, strong favorites in the Eastern Conference. they've got a huge cushion. They absolutely maul the Knicks every time they see them.

The only reason to doubt the Pistons is... I think the season series is over at plus 84. I mean, the only reason to doubt the Pistons at this point, you can talk about, well... I mean, there's a real reason to doubt them. The reason to doubt them is the same reason to doubt San Antonio, which is in the last 30 years, no team in the position those teams are in,

which is with absolutely no playoff success on the roster from the key players. with I guess the exception of Harrison Barnes with the spurs, but I think my point stands. Hey, what about Kelly Alenic? Sure. Has gone on to make the finals, let alone win the title. So I'm not saying they can't do it,

but it's a pretty longstanding established NBA truism that to go through and win the title, you have to learn how to get through it and take some losses along the way and then come back and do it again later. As we've talked about several times, the Thunder a couple of years ago are a prime example of that one,

56 games, very easily could have beat Dallas in the conference semifinals, lost that game in a very hard-fought six games, come back the next year, win the title. Like, that's much more the track record of the league than going from either not making the playoffs or not winning a round to win in three or four. Jackson's telling us that the calves are plus 300,

and that makes them the favorite in the East Court of Draft Kings. Pistons plus 340, sort of the Celtics, Knicks plus 370. So basically got a pack of four teams. The Knicks ain't coming out of the east if they have to run,

go through the Pistons. Well, here's all say, before you start making proclamations, I can proclaim. You are good of proclaiming. A year ago, the Knicks couldn't beat the Celtics either. And then even before Jason Tatum got hurt,

they went in and won the first two games of that series, albeit with big comebacks, but still, and we're on their way to being up 3-1, when Tatum got hurt with a couple minutes left in that game four. So, and that's not the first time that a situation like that has happened, and the playoffs have led to a different result. That's all, that's all I'll say as far as laying anything out.

I like the piston's odds if they run across the Knicks in the playoffs this year. It was a hard fought series last year. To me, yeah, okay, a little bit of inexperienced, sure. A lot of inexperience. Yeah, but, you know, it's not like, they, they showed, up in the playoffs last year, and it was a pretty strong. I know they got balanced in the first round, but it was a pretty strong showing for a team that was getting his first taste.

I don't think they've won a home playoff game since 2008. I will bet you, I'll bet you a home playoff games. That changes this year. They're going to win a lot of home playoff games this year. But I'm just, I'm only saying, I think it's fair to say that there's, they're part of a collection of teams that come out of the East because of the lack of experience. If you look at the resume beyond that, it's up there and looks like a group that should be able to be

in the conference finals or beyond. Like, the resume is strong. They're by far the best team in the East this season. If Tatum comes back and looks like something close to himself, then that could tip things in the Celtics favor. As far as like the Pistons, like forget about experience. the other factor, you know, who's their second creator? Obviously, that was supposed to be Jay and Ivy once upon a time.

That didn't happen. I do think there's a little bit of a concern there, but, I mean, Cade Cunningham has announced himself as a legit MVP candidate, as a first team all-MBA player. I felt good about my second place vote last week. He backed up pretty well that night with 42 and however many assists and just completely obliterating the Knicks. and he's the leader of a team that has a clear identity,

and that is they are a big, tough, physical, nasty, you know, bad boys part two, a bunch of dudes. All I'm going to say is this. Every year, I see people who are really smart and really experienced underrate the difference between the regular season and the playoffs. Correct. The playoffs and the regular season are not twins.

they're not brothers. Sometimes they only resemble distant cousins. And I would not just walk by Cades the only guy that's a even ball handler, really, that you trust in the playoffs, let alone score. So, and none of this is to say that the pistons are frauds at all.

I just, we have seen this many, many, many, many times. And I think the future is bright there. They very well may break through this year. Like, the last team to do this was the 95 magic with Penny and Shaq. Jalen Dern and King Cunningham are not Penny and Shack. However, they

have the lead ball handler and the physical big man that they're building a whole thing around. The reason that Draft Kings has the Cavs as a higher favorite is not because the people at Draft Kings think the calves are a better team. Because you're pumping them up so much

that people are putting down their money? It's reacting to where the money's coming from. Yeah. And the people who are betting the money are, you know, are speaking what they're about their opinion of the of the pistons now that doesn't mean they're right just that's what that's what that is and i would and i would also say too that just from a just from a stat standpoint i mean the celtics are the only team in the the the southics and the pistons are the two teams in the east that are inside the top 10 and offense and defense

and their second and third in the league in net rating so i i would say yes detroit's got a better record obviously they've been phenomenal all season but i i think there's a group of teams any one of them could win the East. I have no real strong feel about who it's going to be. I personally would have a hard time picking against Boston in a series just because of their experience, but I don't know there's been a time that a conference has been this wide open in part

because of that lack of experience. The same thing with San Antonio. If you tell me that Victor goes, you know, Super Sayin and they destroy, you know, they run through the West playoffs. Super Saiin. Dragon Ball Z reference. Man, I'm behind, I'm with you.

I have no idea we've talked about. I've heard it. I didn't know where it was from. The point is, if he goes, if you want to call it Supernova. Where are we out with Dragon Ball Z references? It's a really nerdy reference. It is a nerdy reference. I did it to show.

Devon and Jackson both tell us that we're out of our game. Yeah, I did it to shout out the nerds at McMahon where it was just missing before. But if he goes Supernova, if he used that instead in the playoffs and is the best player in every series and San Antonio makes the finals, like, am I going to say that's impossible? No. But, I mean, one of our pod slogans is to not put a ceiling on Victor. But again, I think if you just look at the arc of history of the league, you know, he and Stefan Castle and Dylan Harper and these guys, Kelton Johnson, I think, has never played in the playoff series.

This might be in the league one time. Colton Johnson is a gold medal winner, sir. He is, that's true. And he's having an incredible year. But they're probably going to, at some point in the Western Conference playoffs this year, whether it's against Denver or Oklahoma City or somebody else, probably gets ripped up. Well, Darren Fox didn't have a whole lot of playoff experience himself,

haven't played most of his career in Sacramento. No. Yeah, just the one series. But he is at least a proven veteran closer for them. Just stopped right over a hockey talk. Did you do it on purpose? Who? I'm just saying, speaking of the gold medal. Yeah.

What? Pretty awesome. I don't know what you're talking about. Yeah, it was a heck of the game. There was a game today? It was a game today. Probably wasn't allowed to be watching your house. No.

Missed that. Missed that. You mentioned the Nuggets. They've got their own problems right now. They are suddenly and strangely a mess in crunch time. Now, it doesn't help that Aaron Gordon's still not back from his second hammy of the year. Doesn't help the Peyton Watson, who was emerging as a star is a bit strong, but as a big-time player is out with a hammy,

but they can't win close games. Well, today didn't get to crunch time because they could not stop anything on the Warriors. And the Warriors are missing their three bus players. If Joker's going to go 35, 20, and whatever, I haven't many assists, triple double, you'd like to be able to win that one. He had five assists in like the first eight possessions of the game for Denver today,

and they were already behind by like three or four possessions, or three or four points, because they couldn't stop. Like that was the thing, like, without Aaron Gordon, I realize they're a different defensive team, but they're like trending towards being a bottom five defensive team. Well, and Aaron Gordon is their most important defensive player. I think Peyton Watson is probably their second most important defensive player,

but they are an abysmal defensive team without Aaron Gordon. And unfortunately, they haven't had Aaron Gordon a lot this year. And to your point, they are now looking, let me scroll down and find them, at 22nd in the league in defense at 116.3. I mean, the Warriors score, I mean, Brandon Pajemski threw in some, he threw in like an Isaiah heartenstein-esque like left-handed floater late in this game today from like 12 feet that got like 15 feet in the air. Like, you know, Pajemski had a, there was, there was some plays that the Warriors made down the stretch. That said, like, Denver could not get a stop to save anything.

anything in this game. And just to put in perspective, the Gordon impact, and again, unfortunately, it's not that big of a sample size for him this year. He's played in 23 games this year. But when he is on the floor, their defense rating is 108.9. When he's off, it's 117.6. That's the difference between the third-ranked defense in the league and the 27th. ranked defense in the league.

Yeah, I mean, I think you can make a real argument. He's the fourth most important player in the whole Western Conference playoffs. You've got Shea, you've got Yolkich, you've got Victor, and then I think you've got Aaron Gordon. Because if he's not on the team, to your point, their defense stinks and is not going to be good enough. And when he's out there, like, the difference is that dramatic. And, like, you know, yeah, you could throw in Anderson.

I just don't think Minnesota can really get to the finals. I don't take Minnesota seriously. I don't take Houston seriously. I don't take the Lakers seriously. And that's why I'd have Aaron Gordon fourth, because if you take him off of Denver, I think they're immediately out of the mix and they can't. It's a fascinating.

I like it. Might follow up on that a little bit. On who, Gordon? Yeah, I like it. That's a good, that's a good, Bontubs. You know, sometimes Bontem says stuff. The fourth most important? Well, I mean, it's not exactly like something you put on a plaque,

but it's an interesting way to look at the reality of the situation. When I say I don't take Houston, Minnesota, the Lakers seriously, it means I just cannot fathom them winning the conference this year. Yeah, I could see, right, I could see two teams truly winning the conference. If San Antonio has a ton of things line up, maybe they could get through and win. I don't think the other three can. Oh, wow. You, you, what?

We got to take San Antonio seriously, man. I take San Antonio and Detroit very seriously. I'm just pointing to the arc of history of the league, and I don't think they're going to win three rounds. I think it's possible, what I would say is the difference is, to your point, I don't think it's possible for Minnesota or Houston or the Lakers to win three rounds, barring, like, crazy injuries or other circumstances. I think it's possible for the Spurs to because they've been that good and Victor's been that good.

But, like, for example, nobody's really, like, just said, we're not going to guard Stefan Castle at all, right? Like he gets in a playoff series and you're just standing 15 feet away from him and just daring him to shoot, how is that going to go? Maybe it'll go great. Like maybe they'll be fine. But like there's stuff like that. And like Brian said before, the playoffs are just a completely different animal than the regular season.

And it just typically these guys are going to have to go through it and learn how to come back later. And look, even the, even look at the NBA. Cup championship game. Like, you know, like, it's not a playoff game, but like the Knicks have more experience than them and they look like it in that game. So, you know, it's I think it's just the reality of

life trying to make it all the way through in the playoffs. And I was going to say, Stefan Castle to me, ranks pretty high in the list of important players in the West come playoff time, because I think he is the one who determines the ceilings for the spurs this year.

You know, if he's If he's really good, who's fifth, who's seventh? On the next hoop collective. All right. That's enough for now. Thank you to Jackson, Mark, and Devon. Thank you to McMahon and Bontems.

Thank you for watching and listening to the Hoop Collective as we start another week in the NBA season, and we'll talk to you in a couple days. Adios, amigos.