Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Can Cavs Turn It Around? NBA Officiating Drama Explained + OKC Stumbles

Episode Date: December 22, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the Cavs’ ongoing struggles including what, if anything, they can do to turn their season around. Plus, the guys explain some key NBA officiating controversies in the last few days before talking about Anthony Edwards’ epic performance and OKC’s first stumbles. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday afternoon. Joining me from San Jose, California, where it's Sunday morning, is Tim Bontemps.

Hello, everybody. Join me from Dallas, Texas, is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners. It's recording right as the beginning of the NFL Sunday kicks off, but a weak batch of early games. You're not compelled by the Bill's Browns? It's a good time to talk about the NBA. All right. So, speaking of Cleveland,

getting a little dark in Cavs Corner. A little dark in Cavs Corner. They've lost four out of five. I mean, in all honesty, like it says four out of five on the standings. The one game they won in there was against Washington in Washington where they gave up 126 points

and barely won with Donald... They needed 24 points in the fourth quarter from Donovan Mitchell of his 48 to win the game. So technically, I'll go. I guess it's four out of five. It's a bunch of bad performances in a row. I think it's eight out of 11 they've lost. And all the bad teams, too.

Like back-to-back, pretty rough losses, even though the second one was missing a couple of guys to the Bulls who've been in an awful stretch, losing at home to Charlotte when they didn't score in overtime on Monday. Lamello didn't play in that game. Just a lot of bad teams and home games that you should be winning that you're not. Yeah. And so it's, there's growing.

in Cleveland because obviously this is a team that, number one, more than anything else, is extraordinarily expensive. It's, they're paying some gigantic tax bill. Dan Gilbert. The one second-apard team in the league, and they currently find themselves, as of this recording, tied for eighth in the Eastern Conference standings. And if the Hawks beat the Bulls this afternoon at home, they'll be ninth in the Eastern Conference standings, which is certainly not where this team was supposed to be.

Well, what I've been telling Cavs fans of my various appearances there is forget about the standings. The standings are not relevant because the way the team is playing right now, it doesn't matter where you finish. Right. So they had this stretch of six very winnable games, which include Monday against Charlotte. I think that's in Charlotte. And then they play New Orleans at home on Tuesday. And then they have a brutal road trip. And this is the thing.

Like, the idea was... By the way, just because we've made fun of the pelicans a little bit on this podcast, they have won four games in a row. The suddenly pesky pelicans. I mean, seriously, like, they're playing better than all of these teams the Cavs have played lately. So you look at that and think that's a win. I mean, it should be a win. There's no win.

I'm giving the Cavs right now, to be honest with you. Right. And not only that, but they've got an illness going through the team, which I'm giving no excuse to the two losses to the Bulls. although I keep telling everybody with the Bulls, all roads lead to 39 wins. I don't know why everyone is freaking out when they get off to a six and one starter.

They lose nine in a row. They're going to win 39. Stop worrying about it. We'll see you in April. Wendy's comfortable making two predictions. One, it's a Zubat's all NBA. Okay, he might have backed up off that. Two, the Bulls to 39, and he's going to drive that one.

Hey, listen. Listen, history is on his side on that one. We are only arguing with them because they look rough. I hope Zubats is okay. He sprained his ankle on Saturday against the Lakers with the Clippers got their first win Saturday night since October. First home win. First home win. I mean, it felt like it might have been their first win since October, but it was definitely the first home.

They had lost eight in a row, I believe. Kauai had a good game that night, but Zubats hurt his ankle. Hope he's okay. The cows feel like they haven't won. many times since October. So they, like I said, they've lost 8 of 11. Now, there's no conversation with the Cavs that can be had, in all honesty, without talking about their injuries because they've been absolutely decimated.

Their team has been a shell of itself routinely. They've had multiple games where they've been missing six or seven rotation players. Friday against the Bulls, which was a better team-wide effort. when they lost to the Bulls in Chicago on Wednesday. And I don't take anything away from the Bulls. We're actually playing a little bit better. They've picked it up a little bit. Kobe White's return to health has made a big difference for them.

Nikola Vucevic has had some good games. Josh Kitty's had some good games. They have been playing better over the last two weeks. I don't want to completely dismiss that. The game on Wednesday, however, the Cavs' defensive posture was borderline embarrassing. On Friday, when the Cavs lost, they started a second round rookie, Tyrese Proctor made his first start. Jalen Tyson, who at the beginning, he's had a decent season, but he's been a, he was a borderline rotation, probably at the beginning of the season. They played two, two-way guys in the rotation, including one guy, Luke Travers.

When the team got sick and a couple of guys got deactivated, including Donovan Mitchell, they had to fly Luke Travers up from Orlando. He was at the G-Leaks showcase. and he had to take a flight and he got to Cleveland like two hours before the game and he was in the rotation. So, look, I mean, the NBA, this is the nature of it,

you have to have a deep team, you know, whatever. But the reason the calves are not in first is in large part because of the injuries that they've had. No, no. Yes, it is. No, it's not. First is a ridiculous thing to say.

Yes. You can't have a conversation about the cows without a nod to their injuries, which now includes Evan Mobley, who's been out for the last week and will be out the rest of the month with the calf injury. But as we've talked about before, the calves have a whole bunch of guys on their team with very extensive injury histories. So it should not, like, acting like this is some, and I'm not, you're not doing this, but acting like this is some sort of heavy dose of bad luck that they have all.

all these guys who never get hurt, who now all of a sudden are hurt. Well, it is, it is a, you know, look, I don't want to make this about this. I'm just saying you can't have a conversation about the Cavs without recognizing they've missed two starters for every game this season, and they've started, like, about the most lineups in the league.

Then you can take a shot at them, but you have to at least acknowledge that first. Sure. Yeah, and a big part of the injury issues is Darius Garland is a shell of himself, right? Coming off of... He's getting better. I would say it's about the... only light in the tunnel right now. Is he getting better?

Well, he's still having a terrible year, but he's, he's, his, I don't want to stop you, McMahon, but. Wendy, in this 11-game stretch, he's shooting 39% from the floor, 30% from three-point range, and he's a two-month-mile-dine- 95. You know how many times Darrys Carlin shot 50% from the field this season? Zero. Wow. And, and, like, look, he's always going to have challenges defensively, but it's a huge issue now. Darious Garland had a great year last year.

That was a massive factor in the calves being a 60-plus win team. If he's a shell of himself, then it also just piles all the responsibility on Donovan Mitchell. And Donovan's having a phenomenal season, and it's barely enough to keep the cabs' heads above water. Right. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. I think the question is, what do they do about it? I think that's the real question. And in all honesty, obviously, I talk a lot about the Cavs.

I have media responsibilities in Cleveland, obviously. My assessment from talking to folks and just watching it and things, I honestly think they don't have much of a choice. I think they just have to kind of weather the storm. And I think that's their best option. It is an unsatisfactory option to a lot of fans who are tweeting at me and texting me, trade, you know, stuff from the trade machine. I don't think that's a feasible pathway for them.

They are a second apron team. I think their pathway is to get healthier and to have their players round into form. But I understand that that is getting a harder sell because they've now played 30 games. Well, the other thing is, okay, trade somebody. Trade Darius Garland for pennies on the dollar because you're absolutely selling low.

Trade Jared Allen while you're, selling low. Like the trade a guy thing, the problem is you're not going to get the kind of value in return that you need for that to make sense at this point because the guys just what we're talking about. They're injured. They're not performing well. This is not the time

that you're going to get good value for them if you're trying to reshape your core. Well, and look, Dean Wade has played almost every game this season. One of the guys who typically has hurt a lot. He has been healthy. He's shooting 37% from the field, 29% from 3. Lanzel ball, shooting 30% from the field.

and 25% from three. Darius Garland shooting 38% from the field, 32% from three. You know, DeAndre Hunter shooting 42% from the field and 30% from three. Hunter is having a terrible season. He had a great season last year, and the Cows bought high on him,

getting him from Atlanta, and he has not been very good. And he's another guy who typically has knee issues and misses a lot of time. And he has been pretty healthy for them this year. He's only missed a couple of games. So, yes, the injuries are a part of this. They're also just not playing well.

Absolutely. Almost across the board. And the only guy who has been good, to McBan's point, is Donovan Mitchell, who is having a, you know, first or second team all-emba season on paper. And, you know, is averaging 31 points a game and shooting pretty high percentages. And like you said, they're still hovering at 500 and losing games to awful teams on a nightly basis. So the thing about Hunter, it wasn't just that they actually didn't pay that much. for him in terms of, you know, it basically was Caris Lavert and some picks, I think a second round pick.

It was three seconds, I believe. Yeah. There was a pick swap in there. Yeah, and a pick swap this year. Yeah. So what the thing that Hunter cost them is they trade an expiring contract in Lavert. You know, Atlanta, by doing that deal, it helped them go make the moves to get Chris Saps Poizengis and go get Nikiel, Alexander Walker.

and the calves, the Hunter move, locked them into the second apron. They ended up going flying in there anyway because Evan Mowgli hit the, you know, he won defensive player of the year and made all NBA and hit the criteria to make Supermax. But at the time, they were basically saying this is a team that can contend. And that's, you know, the reason, you know, if Hunter wasn't on the team, they would have more maneuverability. So, and by the way, Hunter was very good for them last year. they had no regrets on that trade. And they were number one of the East with a 60 plus win at a 60 plus win pace when they made the trade.

I mean, it was absolutely an appropriate time to feel like, hey, we've got the core for the future. Right. So they put themselves in a tough spot. I really honestly, so, but I would also say that Evan Moby is having a good year. It's just the standard that he set last year by being, you know, a top 10 player. If you're a second team all NBA, at least who played 65 games, you're saying on the top. up 10 player, and he is not played at that level this year at either end, really, although defensively I think he's played well.

And part of the reason why I think the Cavs have had a couple of really poor defensive games is because Evan hasn't been there. The other thing is the book on the Cavs, much like it was on the Clippers, the Cavs do very poorly in transition. And, you know, I don't know on the pie chart, what's going on in terms of how much to blame, the injuries, how much to blame, across the board, you know, fall off. But part of the thing that's bothering them is, you know, Toronto is beaten them three times. Toronto plays very fast.

Chicago, when they're playing well, plays very fast. You know, they're getting run off the court in some of these games. And the league is playing fast right now. And like the Clippers picked a very bad time to have the oldest team in league history when the league was playing super fast. The Cavs picked a bad time to turn into a poor transition team. because that is the book on them. It is to make them run.

And really just, frankly, just to make them move. Because defensively, you know, one of the things where, you know, you look at Deandra Hunter's shooting percentage, is you can say, yeah, he's having a bad year. But DeAndi Hunter is supposed to be a good defender. And on the ball, he's got very good size, and you will see him with on-the-ball possessions where he's pretty good. But one of the things that is crushing this team, and the Bulls certainly exploited this, is if you have off-ball movement, you can generate an easy.

easy shot way too simply. And DeAndre Hunter, for example, has been just asleep off the ball. I mean, you know, it's the book on them. You can tell these teams come into these games and whosoever Hunter is guarding is susceptible on a back cut. Like it's in the team's game plan. And, and, you know, like, and here's the thing. Here's what I think if you watch the Cavs where it's frustrated, that was true in

November. And they're running the same. And in fact, it's going to happen more. And so what's frustrating, I think, to watch them. play is, okay, any night, Kenny Atkinson comes in and reads off the injury report and it's like, oh my God, they're missing seven guys tonight. Okay, that's fine. So maybe you're not going to get it done. But geez, oh, man, how many times are you going to get beat on the weak side? How many times is one pick and roll and one pass going to generate a guy who's open by 12 feet? That's where the

calves have had egg on their face. Now, I thought their effort level was better on Friday. on Wednesday I thought it was awful and said so. And I thought that was better, but their personnel was bad. So this is a very interesting five games now for the Cavs. So they have this back-to-back with Charlotte and New Orleans. And then they begin this road trip where they're supposed to be a showcase game on Thursday against the Knicks and Madison Square Guard. They better have their act together. They're going to get embarrassed on national television on Thursday.

They pretty much, they have four days. to get this figured out because they could get embarrassed in the garden if they continue to play the way they play. Because the Knicks are playing well and are healthy. And then they go to Texas, McMahon. It's San Antonio, Houston,

San Antonio. I can't remember which. Yeah. Yeah. Those are the two best Texas teams. Yeah. I mean, it could be a showcase game on Thursday for the wrong reasons. I also could show up and play well.

But, you know, look, I mean, the bottom line, really, is this team is extraordinarily expensive. They were supposed to be a championship contending team. They were the favorites to win the East before the season started. Like, it was them in the Knicks, but they were seen as a better team by most people, I would say, and the Knicks were a close second, but second.

And they've been awful. And yes, they've had some injuries, but they've mostly just been awful. and they're extraordinarily expensive this year, and they're currently $40 million over the luxury tax next year, and I think would be, I'd have to double check the math. I'm going to text Bobby after I say this to make sure it's right before the end of the pod.

I think there'd be an approaching a $400 million team next year. So you're not going to be a $400 million team, at least I wouldn't expect, despite Dan Gilbert always showing a willingness to spend money to his credit, if you're a first round and out team, or God forbid you don't make the playoffs and lose in the play in. And I'm not saying that the calves are going to be in the play in the rest of the season. There's obviously a lot of time left.

If you want to be rosy about their situation, you can say that in the Eastern Conference, there's nobody really running away. There are three losses out of the three seed. They can sort the stuff out eventually and get themselves going. And they do have talent. And hopefully for their sake, Darius Garland can start to play better.

And they can get Jared Allen healthy and get evident. will be back and they can go on a run. But we're now more than a third of the way through the season. And there's been precious little evidence that this team is anywhere near the level they were last year and that they should be taken seriously as a threat to win the conference. And when you have this kind of payroll and those kind of expectations and potentially this kind of outcome, that leads to consequences of various forms. So we'll see what happens.

Let me ask this. Last year, they have a phenomenal regular season. Forget the playoff disappointment, but Kenny Ackinson got a ton of credit. He got coached at the year. You know, like when you talk to the Cavs players, they were so excited to have Kenny Aiken said, everything he did, you know, during the regular season, turn to gold. There's a guy who replaced J.B. Bickerstaff, who, frankly, player or players essentially got fired. And they loved him last year. Where's the temperature on Kenny Hicketts? Atkinson right now that things aren't all clicking and everything's not just honky dory. Well, it is what it would be for any coach on a team that's this expensive and underperforming. You know, it's, you know, the the seat's starting to get a little warm.

But as I would, as I said a few minutes ago, assessing everything. And by the way, Kenny is even, like he's admitted he's made mistakes. You know, he's, you know, the other night, he, against the Bulls, he, in a close game, he went with veterans down the stretch when some of the younger players were playing better and he got questioned about it after the game. And, you know, again, it's like these calves young guys, you know, they're two-way guys. It's not like it was an outrageous decision. And then he admitted after the game, he's like, yeah, he's like, that's a fair assessment. I probably could have gone it a different way. I trusted the older guys.

You know, he's copped to it. He's copped to the fact that he's tried. to get them to make adjustments and they're not adjusting. Like, he's being honest. But again, my assessment and my assessment in speaking to folks around the team is that they believe the best approach right now is to try to work through this, get healthy, and find ways to improve and get through it. I don't think radical change or roster change is coming. Now, we are in mid-December. You know, if you get to mid-delay January and your share, still in ninth place or wherever they're going to be when this podcast comes out, you know,

that may be a different conversation. But right now, I think their intent is Struce is getting closer, Sam Merrill's getting closer. Both of them could be back. You know, I think they're hoping for Merrill in January. I mean, Strues sometime in January. It's a Jones fracture. It's not an easy situation. It's not just, oh, yeah, he'll be back on whatever day. Sam Merrill has got this hand injury. And, you know, You would, you know, you'd say, well, we're talking about Sam Merrill here. He's their seventh man. But yeah, well, they're like 30th and three-point shooting for the last like 15 games. So, yeah, having a guy who shoots 40% is a factor.

So those guys are getting closer. You know, Mowgli is still going to be a couple more weeks, but, you know, it's not a season-ending thing. They'll hope to get him through that. And then they're hoping they're going to look different. But, you know, let's put it this way, McMahon. I think it's a fair question to ask, and it's a fair thing to monitor. But I also don't think they're anywhere near that. That's my assessment.

And I ask because, you know, just like talking to scouts at games and whatnot, that thing is coming up. And it's going to come up when there's a team that falls this short of expectations. But I will point out that they ran off a really good coach in J.B. Bickerstaff, who was a big part of the Pistons making a historic leap last year. Now the Pistons have made another leap. They're in first place in the Eastern Conference. And, you know, at a certain point, you can't keep blaming the coach when, you know, you got rid of a really good coach. I think Atkinson proved last year.

I mean, it was coach of the year. That speaks for itself. And so, you know, I ask because it's a question that's, you know, being bounced around the league right now, not because I think that Kenny Atkinson should take the lion's share of the blame. Well, and as you pointed out before, McBan, you know, they are, they have all these players that are way underperforming. So even if you say, hey, Cavs should go make moves while you're selling guys,

that are playing very poorly, pretty much universally across the board. Again, the only guy who's played to his level this season is Donovan Mitchell. Every other guy has played below, whether it's Evan Moby or everybody else, and there's been degrees of how much below. And there's the fact, as you pointed out earlier, Brian, they're not only a second apron team, not only the most expensive team in the league this year, they're $22 million over the second apron. So for them to say, put two players together and go get some star, like remake their roster,

they would have to shed $25 million to do that. It's just not a realistic path for them to take in the middle of the season. They can't do that. So, yeah, for better or worse, they have made their bed with this team. They came into the season betting this team would be a championship level team, which is why they're in the second apron. And you only go into the second apron if you believe you're a championship caliber team. And with the east being wide open, as it is still,

they don't really have a choice but to cross their fingers and hope they get healthy and hope their guys start playing better and hope things start to go better. Because there's not a obvious lever to move to say, oh yeah, go just, you know, move these three guys and bring in this other guy and do like they can't do any of that stuff. They got this is their team. They got to just hope it works out. And like I said, if we get to the spring and they lose in the first round or they're in the play in and they wheeze into the playoffs and lose to Detroit or the Knicks or somebody in the first round or whatever. scenario like that is, I would be stunned if this team looks the same in all facets next year, because that's when the consequences come in and we'll see where it lands. Yeah, listen, man, if you're in the second apron and you're not on the doorstep or holding

the trophy, you're going to have to have consequences. It's like Phoenix last year. Exactly. I mean, this isn't as bad as Phoenix, obviously. That was an unmitigated disaster. But they were extraordinarily expensive. They never lived up to it. And they made changes.

Like, that's what's going to happen because you're not going to be this. expensive and they say, oh yeah, it's cool, no problem. We'll come back and spend $400 million this year. Like, if Dan Gilbert does that, that would be a borderline unprecedented thing. So let's just see if we're still having these conversations in four or five weeks, because if we are, then you're going to be, we're going to be having different talks about the calves. But I would, I don't, I don't think. Or worse, patience is the only thing you can really have. And that's what I think is going to happen, whether that's, whether that lands well or not. Okay. On Friday, the NBA made a very

interesting announcement that was unexpected but still very intriguing. And that was that they have limitedly reinstated veteran NBA referee Eric Lewis. Now, if you don't remember Eric Lewis, Eric Lewis is a 20-year NBA official who two years ago, in the summer of 23, he retired when it came to light that he had a burner Twitter account in which he talked about NBA officiating and even responded to fans who may have criticized him other officials. And in some cases... He had a very thin-skinned burner account

and they were investigated and he retired. That's right. Now they've created a pathway for his return starting with G-League. Which he did this weekend at the G-League Showcase in Orlando. Which is why it got announced on Friday. Right. Awesome. Friday News Dump.

Well, yes, but I just mean it wasn't like, it was a Friday news dump, but he also was in Orlando at the showcase doing G-Wea games. It's not like they announced it and he's doing it later. That's all right. It was obviously a Friday Newsome. And so, hold on. Let me get the press release. I want to say exactly what the Leaf said about. I have it here, if you want me to read it.

Yeah, they said he cleared benchmarks. I don't remember what the benchmarks were. Stress management, counseling, and training on responsible use of social media. Which for a ref is don't. He definitely means such a major. Well, right. I think, yeah. So he had, he did referee in college the last couple of years.

I will say this. I will say two things. First off, number one, and I don't see the internal reports that the NBA has on referees. But I think Eric Lewis was one of the best referees the league had. I said that before this happened, Eric Lewis. I said that. He's universally regarded as a really good ref, which is why he's done several finals games and he's done 91 playoff games. Like you don't do that many playoff games.

There's a lot of veteran refs who have not done nearly that many playoff games. So I reached out to a couple of officials to get their reaction. And what I got was extreme support for Eric Lewis. One official said to me, you know, the ability to potentially just get a finals referee back still in his prime.

Like, it's terrific. And another one said that, you know, there was a lot of pride that Eric, you know, he could, you know, he had a, he still had a career. He was still doing an NCAA games. It was a lesser career. But he, you know, he didn't have to, you know, but he's bringing, he's doing what he had to do to come back. And quite frankly, like, I think, again, I, the league could produce data that I don't have access to. But anecdotally, as I watch games, I think the league could use veterans. I think in general, the referee corps is.

less veteran than it was seven, eight years ago. And while that has advantages, I think sometimes it has disadvantages. And, you know, from what I understand, this pathway for Eric Lewis, which he's got to check the boxes and he's checked a bunch of them already, includes potentially becoming a crew chief again, which, frankly, I just think what the NBA officiating is, like if you have a good referee. Because I think, Bontemps, I think the, I don't think the league felt that his social media used to defected the way he refereed games. I think he just affected how he reacted to criticism.

Well, yeah. I mean, you're just not supposed to be on social media and he was like McBansson. We're not supposed to talk to the crowd, much less than social media. Right, exactly.

Terrible. It was terrible optics. Correct. And if you look, more good refs. Correct. And if you, if you look over the past

10 years, right, go back to 2016, you know, we've talked about it before that game seven with Duke Callahan and Dan Crawford and

Monty McCutchin doing Warriors calves. Those guys, Monty's obviously running there. Well, just be quiet, think, man.

My name of Cutchin is out running the refs. The other two guys are retired. Joey Crawford has retired. Joey Crawford is retired. Kane Fitzgerald had replaced him towards Achilles or his knee. He retired. Jason Phillips retired.

Eric Lewis is now not involved. You had several veteran refs, including Ken Mauer, get booted as part of COVID when they wouldn't take, they didn't comply with the vaccine stuff. Like, there's for a variety of reasons, not all, not like one specific. thing. Over the last eight to ten years, a whole lot of high-level veteran refs that did high-profile games

have all retired in mass. And you've seen a lot of new refs come in as a result of that. And I do think there's been a talent drain because of that. And that's allowed some other younger refs to get more opportunities and more experience, which is a

good thing for the league in the long term. But it's also created a talent drain. And I don't think it's a coincidence that Eric Lewis has had this opportunity presented to him and is coming back in light of that. Like, if the NBA was in a great position with all of its refs, I think maybe this would have still happen anyway because he is a good ref, and you can't really have enough good refs. But I don't think it's, it's not coincidental to me that both things are happening at once. And this does potentially give them a way to try to strengthen a group

that could use some strengthening. I will say- Do you ever dress up as a ref for Halloween as a kid? You are a huge fan of officials and of referees in general. I just think if you look at it objectively, a lot of veteran referees have retired in the past 10 years for various reasons. Some injury, some non-injury, some off-the-court stuff. And they have not been replaced. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. McMahon, you were, we're in this little stretch of the schedule right now where refereeing has been a little bit in the headlines because some coaches and players.

There's been a lot of complaining. More than even usual, I would say. Not a lot of holiday spirit between the coaches and the referees. These two things are not related, but since we're talking about our, like, so McMahon the other night, you had that, I believe you were called in on your pool report duties. No, no, no, this was Christian Clark's pool report based you. Really? Yeah, well. Cuban no longer owns a team, so we don't have nearly as many.

And Luke who got traded right after Christian, got the gig in Dallas. And so. Christian and I have been down bad because Todd, Hotspur is having a horrible couple of months. Nobody cares. Thank you. You're a fan of soft for bondage as a fair referees. I'm not a fan of football.

But anyways, no, so it was Christian Clark, but the reason it was necessary is, like, we thought there's a chance because Assar Thompson got tossed. It was a, it was a, I don't know, I thought it was kind of a soft ejection. So did J.B. honestly, though, like, he bumped the ref. Now, Biggerstaff contention is that John Goebel stepped towards him to help create minimal contact. And, like, when LeBron is, like, full on grabbing the ref, I think it was the night before. And they pat him on his back and, you know, he keeps on playing. It's like, okay.

Oh, and by the way, when you bump a ref, it's an automatic game. And ASR Thompson didn't get a game. Yeah. And J.B.'s not open. Well, because, you know, the bump was, I don't know, man. I'm not saying, my point is, yeah, I'm not saying he didn't touch them in some form or fashion. My point is, if you bump a ref, like, if you initiate contact with a ref, it's almost a automatic blanket game. So the fact he didn't get a game, I think, would tell you there was some ambiguity in the situation.

That's a good point. Which, by the way, they came back in that game he wasn't suspended for and had a very impressive win in Denver. Yes, yeah. By the way, is a quick aside, have you guys noticed? that like the Nuggets record is awesome. I think they're 20 and 7. They're pretty much unbeatable on the road. And they've had a couple of home losses,

which is the inverse of 50 years. 8 and 5 at home, 12 and 2 on the road. Do we have an explanation for this? We'll get to the Nuggets because the Nuggets have a role in this. But let's focus on the piston loss in Dallas. So Cade got Tied, and these were all John Goebbled teas. John Goebbled is the crew chief. Kade got teed up with 24 seconds up in the first half

And then at halftime Made a B-line to Goebel and was getting a half from And then J.B contends That he just went over there just to get his guy Cade out Now J.B rides rest pretty hard. Yes, I would say J.B. is number one in the league at riding the rest. Finch is up there too. I would I feel confident saying J.B. is number one in the league

at riding the rest. I love J.B. He's a good dude. He's yelling at the rest of the rest of the rest. Our former teammate at ESPN, it was short because he's a great coach. He's a great guy. He also rides the refs nonstop every game all the time. That's correct.

The second question of poor poor is explain why J.B. Bickerstaff was assessed to T just before half, or it was actually out of half. Goble said two words, continuous complaining. J.B. I think we'll have acknowledged that he does continuously complain. His contention is he wasn't complaining at the time. He's just going to get Cade back in the locker, make sure his star doesn't get a second team and get tossed. Anyways, J.B. came in postgame, and I went to his postgame just because I was like,

because you're a veteran. There's a little more a few years of future postgame at J.Kid anyway, right alone after that. Yeah, I'm like, I'm like, I got a feeling J.B. is going to say something I'm going to have to write. That's some things to say. He certainly did. But kind of the main focal point. He'd never mentioned John Gobel by name, but he definitely, he basically said, Goebo early on said, night by night, this is how our interactions are. So J.B.'s point in his beef was that this guy's saying night by night, he's carrying something

into the game. He's not objective. He's carrying bias into the game. And like, they don't like each other. By the way, so the way the game ends, the Pistons make this comeback from 18 down. And then Cooper Flag felt like he got foul. It goes in overtime. Cooper Flagg felt like he got fouled. The last two-minute report said no. The Mavs up one late. And then so Kate comes down and drives.

Flag bumps him. The last two-minute report says, yeah, there was a foul on there. And then it's just like a wrestling match on the room. During its couple rebounds, there was one point. with the last two-minute reports said, yeah, AD had his hand on the ball with a foot out of bounds. That should have been out-of-bounce business. It was after the second during offense to rebound, Bickerstaff is timeout, time-out, time-out. He's on the other end of the floor.

Let him tell it, though, he's like got his arm around John Goebbels saying time-out, time-out, time-out. Anyways, the time-out's not awarded. The last two-minute report said he was calling timeout when the ball was still, you know, not under control, but whatever. So he was heated about that. He felt like Goble blew him off because of beef. But anyways, it was a, no fine has been announced as of this pod. There have been several fines announced by. No, he's not getting, he's not getting fine for that game.

Yeah. There have been several fines announced by rookie league official James Jones this week. But by the way, was I talk to some referees about Eric Lewis coming back? I had two things I heard about. One, they don't like the earpieces. You know how they're wearing ear pieces? Yeah, that's been a consistent. That's been consistent.

I'm not going to go into more. Yeah. The second thing is, high praise for James Jones. Okay, good. High praise for James Jones. Yeah, I mean, he and Tim Cook. I would say, yeah, let me, yeah, I don't mean to interrupt you, Bontems.

You're good. Let me say James Jones and his staff. Yeah. because, you know, the referee job is hard, but like, good, what I'm hearing is good, good relations, good working relationship between the referees and league office. Not that the average fan cares about that. I'm just, no, he and Tim Cook have been going around and meeting with teams and hearing teams out on a variety of different things, including, you know, any issues with the referees. And, you know, James obviously has been on all sides of this, both as a player. as a guy leading a front office and now in the league office,

so is aware of how this stuff goes. And yeah, like, those guys have been really busy this week. We got to find this morning from those guys, which we'll get to. We'll get to. But, yeah, like, it's been, it's been a very busy week. Yeah, like, they would have fined J.B. by now and didn't. Various Dylan Brooks, ejections, flagrants, wherever Dylan has gone in the last couple of weeks, The referees have had a lot of paperwork.

I would say the back and forth. Yeah, the back and forth with Phoenix and the Lakers on Sunday, where all kinds of shenanigans happened late in that game. Then you had Dylan Brooks get a flagrant one for hitting Steph on Thursday. The Warriors were a little annoyed at him about that. Then Draymond gets ejected in Saturday night's game. Jimmy Butler fires the ball at Dylan Brooks, clearly coming back at him from what happened on Thursday.

They, you know, just like, not a full-guess and Bain Dodge Bowl thing. Then Steve Kerr said some things after the game. I know fine announced yet, but Steve Kerr's... I don't think he's getting fine for that. Steve Kerr was angry that he thought Draymond got the heave-ho too fast. But it was one of those things where Draymond is like there's a, it's like a procession of people holding Draymond back. Also, Draymond Green, I'm sorry. There, Draymond Green gets zero sympathy for me with the official.

ever. Like, if you want to say he got ejected too fast, you know what? He didn't get ejected fast enough seven million other times. So it's like Dylan Brooks. Well, that's the thing. There's just so many incidents that happen. You can't come to me and say, ah, I really got to grieved here. It's like you're in a million of these things.

Almost the worst thing you can do is give Dremont to tech early. Right. Then he thinks he has a punity. Then it's just an open season. For a decade plus, he has. Like, you know, like you want to get people going in the league. talk about what happens after Draymond gets his first tech

like that, you know, that will be a thing. So, you know, whatever. I guess I don't know which official tossed them. Zach Zarba was involved in a couple of things this week. But the hair's getting placed the whole time. Well, and the other thing is too, and we'll get through, there's some other things to touch on, including the Finch one. But like Monday, right,

Emi Adoka completely undresses the officials after the Rockets Nuggets game. Yes. Gets a $25,000 fine. Come back on Saturday, they get a bunch of free throws in this Denver game. David Adelman sees the Rockets

getting all these free throws, sees Nicole Yokitz get fouled in the lane, doesn't get a call, decides to go completely insane. He gets ejected. You have Chris Finch. I know, by the way, real quick. Which we're about to get to.

After the game, Adelman was almost like apologetic. He's like, yeah, maybe I shouldn't have done that. You know, he's kind of mild-mannered as it is, But, like, you know. There's a constant effect. What happens in the NBA, you know, like, I don't know this for sure.

But Udoka goes crazy. By the way, as a quick aside, did you see IMA Udoka have the back and forth with Derek Queen the other night in New Orleans? Yes. He may has a lot of back and forth with players. I was, now, Derek Queen, as we've talked about, is one of the more unintentionally hilarious players in the league and has, like, gotten himself into already a bunch of bizarre situations. I think it was involving a play at the end of the game when the game was already decided. Just like he had a couple weeks ago. Yes.

He like went down and dunked it. And I... When he stole the ball and ran down and dumped it when the game was being run out. I'm not 100% sure of that, but I was trying to read E. May's lips. And I think it was something along those lines. And I don't think Eme was real happy because the rockets were losing and going to lose to the Pelicans. But E may had his say there, then had his say about...

And, but, you know, we talked about that game. There was some tough, and I think you pointed out, McMahon, that the two-minute report sided with E-May. Yeah, there's three calls and overtime that were ruled incorrect, or calls or non-calls. But as Bontem says, it's cause and effect. Yeah, three incorrect. Well, now we get to the- I think. I think the last two-minute report saved E-May some money. Right.

So, and now we get to the Chris Finch game on Thursday. So, hold on. So Adelman sees a coach go after his star. He comes out that the coach might be right. So in the next, so they know this going into the game, you know, between games, coaches do a lot of assessing. So Adelman knows to be on the lookout and he's a rookie head coach. And so, you know, he's- And the Rockets are getting calls in the game after that, between the same teams five days later.

Right. So Adelman comes to the game, probably a little bit sensitive. A couple of Yokic gets hammered a couple of times. He flips out, gets ejected. Nuggets lose. Okay, now Finch. All right. Finch has been very aggressive on the referees.

This year a couple of times. He's been on some hot mics where he's just been absolutely raw on the referees. And he's been on it about the specific matchup of the wolves and the thunder and how the thunder operates for years now. Yes, more than a year going before last year's playoff series, well before all of that. Right. And by the way, the league is, you know, in general, the league is trying to figure out how they're going to beat the Thunder, all right? And so Finch knows that in any sort of series against Oklahoma City, that officiating will be a part of the series. Will it be a 5% part of the series?

Will it be a 1%? Will it be 12%? I don't know. But he knows this. He's already played the Thunder in the playoffs once, which they lost in was six games. It was five games. Five games. And also, I do think as an undercurrent of all of this,

it hasn't quite been to Cavs Corner levels this year, but it's been a disappointing start to the season in Minnesota. They've had several really rough losses, late game collapses. They very rarely had wins against high-level teams. All of that is sort of festering under the surface, I think, coming into this game on Friday. Finch has been under a little bit of heat locally in Minnesota about his rotations and not playing the younger guys more.

came out after a game within the last seven to ten days and he maybe was in a practice but i think it was after a game where he like had a very detailed like six point explanation because the because the um the wolves play guy's shorter minutes and he was explaining his rotational theories and explaining why the young guy he had like a defense prepared like and he doesn't do that unless he probably is feeling like he's got to defend himself he's not thinking about it right right They have this game, they have this record where they've struggled against the teams with good records. So, Ann has been out. This is a funny thing about Aunt Edwards, like, the guy is like Iron Man.

Like, he turns his ankle 17 different ways and pops back up and dunks, like, takes some crazy blow to the leg and then scores 35. He just missed, was it three or four games with an infection in his pinky toe? So we're all vulnerable somewhere. So Aunt comes back. They're playing the thunder. It's in Minnesota. You know that National TV game.

Yes. You know that Finch is on guard. And early in the game, Aunt gets hit on the arm. And Finch blows up. It was a strong one. It felt like it might have been a premeditated. I'm going to find a way to get ejected five minutes into the game.

So he gets a tech. He makes his point and gets his, gets a tech. But then, and while I don't know for sure, then he keeps going. I think he makes a decision or had previously made a decision if there was an opportunity to go after and make a point. And let's be honest. They're playing the Thunder. The Thunder play physical defense.

He knew he was going to get a chance to do that. He knew he was going to get it. You don't go that crazy and get ejected five minutes in the game. Ant did get filed. That's fine. He's a veteran coach. He's coached all over the world. He knows exactly what he's doing.

doing. It felt like, hey, this is a chance to wind my team up, wind the crowd up, and maybe get my team going when we need to get jump started. I don't know if this is true. I don't know if this is true. I just know that some of the beatwriters who cover the wolves, I can't remember if it was Chris Heine or Jason Frederick or Dane Moore pointed out that there were video packages showing the controversial non-calls. I remember seeing it right after the play. Chris goes, they don't normally show these plays right after.

So I don't know for sure. I'm just saying, I'm just seeing that. But what we do know is this. There had been a lot of thought and fury and frustration from Finch and the Wolves about the way their games with the Thunder were officiated. Finch had the press conference last year where he basically said, I'm paraphrasing, but, you know, they get away with mugging guys on defense and then you blow on Shay and he gets to the line. The last time they played was in a. Oklahoma City. And I can tell you, Finch was going ballistic that whole game because I was sitting there at the scores table. It was a national game side of the scores table seat.

That was when he threw down the powder. Didn't he? I thought he was going to get a hit. I was doing like that. And then I'm getting all kinds of crap from some of our buddies with a thunder because it got to the point where Finch felt like he wouldn't get through the rest. So he just started to turn around and bitching to me. He didn't do it bad. It was one point. And by the way, after all of this, what's the free throw count on Friday in a two-point game? 47-30. 47 to 30. Yeah.

And Fowler is 30 for the Thunder and 24 for Minnesota. I don't think Mike Anori was shocked that he got handed the clipboard midway through the first quarter. So this morning, Finch got fined 35,000. I will say that, so it's interesting, Finch did not speak to the media after the game. He talked to the media on Sunday at practice. Typically, when a coach gets ejected, he does speak to the media. Not maybe 100%, but most of the time. He looked like he was already halfway through celebrations after the game for the videos I saw.

And he was going to be a whole-way high-fiving people. Well, he might have saved himself some, well, because he was probably a great movie. He might have himself some more money for not taking questions on any of that. But I will say this, Ant was, after all that, aunt was awesome in that game, including the game winner, which. Well, game winner, then Block and Shea on. the next game-bitting step-back three. Case and Wallace playing incredible defense, just better offense, comes down.

Shea drives the hoop. Looks like he's getting a lay-up. Aunt appears and blocks it. And then after they hit a couple free throws, Shea's got the ball, down three, trying to get to a step-back, tie the game, and Ant picks his pocket and gets a steal, and they win the game.

Like a rare... Incredible stuff. A rare trifecta that you will hear more about in the Cajonis Factor Player of the Month discussion. That will be one of the 27 nominees for Cajonet's Factor Player of the Month. month. Ant said after the game,

he practices that shot a thousand times a week. God bless him if he does. That was a crazy move sort of in an awkward spot. It wasn't really at the wing. I mean, it was on the wing, but it was like. But it was against one of the best

on-ball defenders in the league. But I'm sure if your aunt, you see, hey, I'm one-on-one. There's not a second guy coming my way. I've got to get this shot up. Right. You know, which I don't blame him. If you're going to trust a player,

trust case and Wallace. And if you're going to live with that. If you're the thumb, you're saying, hey, you got a shrunk. Orden, anybody in the league one-on-one we feel good about and made a tough shot. Man, it was a great. It was a great win. And then, you know, a huge win for them.

But, you know, that's the thing. Like, the Thunder have reached the status where, like, we're now suspecting if there was, like, a basketball operations slash coach planning to get, trying to get ejected plot for, you know, it's some game in December.

Like that's And to bondage point Man, the wolves needed that kind of way And the wolves aren't like It's not like they're just in I think Nas reads It was a

Of course he said it after they won But I think he said it before He said it before Oh he did say before Oh I take it back The Thunder are 18 and 10 And six in the West But like wolves

I'm sorry Yeah the Thunder I don't know when the Thunder loser 10th game April Maybe not this year But the wolves My batter

18 and 10 10, six in the West, but just three and eight against teams that are 500 or better, there was a lot of frustration. There was a lot of failure to close games. And that's the kind of win that, man, that can be a galvanizing type of win for them. I mean, they've still got issues primarily at point guard, which is basically a point guard now. But big, big, big win for them. And I think they're now undefeated since they've announced that Kevin Garnett's an ambassador.

It's true. One and no. Yeah. Assuming they beat the bucks today this afternoon, we're doing this before the game. We'll see if they do. I like their odds in that one. I wouldn't assume that. It's where you get into trouble.

That's right. So McMahon, didn't Shea say something about the Thunder's winning? So Shea in Vegas was asked, yeah, basically, hey, are you guys going to be shooting, for or do you want that record? Do you want the 74 wins? He was like, absolutely. Which I was a little bit surprised because, you know,

Shea's always been just like, focused right on what's in front of him and that sort of a thing. But he basically said, you know, he kind of framed it. I wish I had it in front of me. He said, absolutely. But he kind of framed it as like,

you know, we want to win as much as possible. you know, it's not going to be like the primary goal, but if that's within reach, we want it. They are one and two since then. Now, here's a crazy stat. The Thunder are 25 and 1 when they don't have their preferred starting lineup and 0 and 2 when they do. There goes my cow's argument. I wouldn't put a whole lot of stock in that because that preferred starting lineup did deliver a championship parade to Bricktown. But I think it does kind of put in perspective just what a bizarrely elite season it's been for Oklahoma City.

They're all NBA forward missed the first 19 games of the season. You know, he comes back and Hartinstein was out until, you know, he was able to come back for the Cups semifinal in Vegas. You know, Hartnstein and J. Deb have only played a couple of games together in the season. I mean, I don't have the updated stats, but very recently, they had the second most games missed due to injury this year. But they've lost three games now. And this was, they lost this game by five. That's the most lopsided loss of the season. The other two were by a bucket.

In each of their losses, they've blown double figure leads, 22 in Portland, 16 against the Spurs in Vegas, and this one, they blew a 12-point lead. So basically, hey, the Thunder are going to be up by double figures. It's just a matter of can you come back or not. Yeah, I mean, I guess their pace is off now, but I'm not, you know, like to me, whether they win 70 or 72 or 73, whatever, I know there's some history there, but, you know, they are a powerhouse. So. Well, they're now on pace for 73.2 wins. Oh. So they're still on record pace, but perhaps not record-breaking pace.

Ah, I see. All right. Well, the standard is very high for them. It's true. Seeing how the teams react, beating them, is sort of says it all. I've covered some teams like that. And it can be a little exhausting, but the thunder have proven to be up to it. All right.

Well, thank you so much for sticking with us for another episode. We're back for a big time Christmas week here. I'm not sure how our schedule will be affected. I haven't talked with Jackson about it yet, but I don't know. You'll get three podcasts this week somehow, some way. All right, thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Bontemps.

Thank you to Jackson. Thank you to Devon. Thank you for listening and watching The HOOP Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios megos.