Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Cavs Down Knicks + Spurs Expose Pistons? OKC’s Depth Showing Finals Repeat Chances?

Episode Date: February 25, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Cavs getting a big home win over the Knicks including a breakdown of what this game says about each team. Plus, the Spurs make a statement in Detroit in a fashion that raises questions about the Pistons’ ability to make a deep playoff run, in part due to San Antonio having two elite defenders. The guys then tackle the injured Thunder continuing to get the job done and how that could potentially impact the future of the franchise. Finally, the guys settle if Jaylen Brown is underrated or properly rated. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to The Hoot Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday evening, joining me from New York City, which is under ungodly amounts of snow. Tim Bontemps.

Hello, everybody. This is actually, the snow is all pretty much melted. Over here at Barclay Center. It's all melted. In town. Yeah, the streets are all clear. The sidewalks are all clear. It's all back to normal.

Did you take up arms like your mayor requested and take up a shovel? and help clear the path? I did not. I sat in my apartment with the cinder block, who's got his first cold, and we looked outside at the snow, and we watched it, and we didn't do anything else.

That's the way to go. And in the magic of New York City, it was all gone by the time I need to go outside. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, where if they get a half inch of snow, it's a big time problem. I've been there when it happens,

is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners? I'm just glad they got that Mavs at Nets. game in tonight. Don't know what would have done without that kind of entertainment. The Mavs has been a rough road trip. Travel delays and they won two straight games. All sorts of reunions today. Kyrie Irving was in the building. You had all sorts of fans trying to get autographs home after the game. Jason Kidd back here at Barclay Center where he once intentionally spilled a Coke on the floor. You know, all kinds of. I think it was water. I think it was

water. I think it was a Diet Coke. Was it really? I covered the game. It was a Coke. Trust me. So in case our viewers and listeners haven't told the story, you can tell that story because it's a good one. I'll tell the story very fast. I don't remember the specific context of the situation. He needed a time out. Yes, I meant the rest of the situation. But the Nets didn't have a time out. Jason wanted to try to stop the game.

And so he had Tyshaun Taylor who went to Kansas. I was a young guard. I think he was second year at the time. Bumped into him and spilled a Coke all over this. No, he pulled him. He pulled him into him. to him. That's what I mean. Oh, he said, hit me, hit me. Yeah, he said hit me. He intentionally caused a collision to spill his coke on the ground and force a stoppage in play. And get a chance

to draw a time out. I can report that Jaykin's acting skills have drastically improved in the many years since then. He convinced millions of people that he was just absolutely shocked that Luca Dantz, got traded in the middle of the night. That was only a couple weeks before Lawrence Frank. running the Clippers was told to go file individual daily reports, which is one of the most memorable press conferences I've ever attended. One of many in the same room here at Barclays Center,

including one with Brian Winhurst, where Oh, you're at Barclays. I didn't even say that you were at Barclays. I mean, I knew you were there tonight. The same room where Jason Kitt sat down and announced that Lawrence Frank was off to file individual daily reports on what was happening with the team

is a few weeks later. I should say a year before was when Mikhail Procroft, the owner of the team at the time, came back from Hellaskeying and Whistler and declared how he decided to fire Avery Johnson. So many memorable moments here at Bartlett Center. I promise we'll move on from Memory Lane right after this. But I was at that press conference. And when he was asked why he waited a couple of days to, the question was, when did you decide to fire Avery?

He said, oh, last week. And then the follow-up was, well, then why did you not fire him until today? and he goes, oh, well, the snow was, and he pointed to his shoulder. He said, the snow was about 6.8. He was about 6.8. So it was about high snow. Good snowpack up in Whistler for. I, uh, yeah, I, I respected the answer, even though I'm sure, uh, our former colleague

Avery did not. All right. So let's just come clean here. I'm in Los Angeles. Um, I went to the pregame for Lakers and Magic tonight. Any snow there? Windows has been hobnobbing folks. and he didn't watch Cavs Corner dominate the Knicks.

I watched the first quarter, or most of the first quarter of the Cavs. Part of the first corner. I watched a section of the first quarter. And then he hobnobbed as Windows is known to do. Hobnop with the stars. It's known as reporting, Bontems. I talked to... You might want to try it sometime, buddy.

Executives. I talked to players. I met... What do we think of this window look we've got going right now? It's like all black. it up. You know, it's a good look. It is, I agree.

It is mysterious. It's like, it's kind of got dark lighting there, you know. Yes, well, I'm not a fashion plate. But, you know, so anyway, here's the long and short of it. The Cavs won 109-94. And obviously, 94 points is pretty good as far as defense. I don't know what happened. So just going to be honest, just coming clean.

I was at Nets Mavs and I was watching Nix Cavs because nobody here was watching Nets Mavs. So I can talk about what happened at least. I believe McBad can as well. It was on the third TV for me. Caves Nix was on the primary. And I mean, honestly, if you want to sum it up, the calves played pretty well. The Knicks were atrocious.

The Knicks could not buy a bucket. What were they from three-point range? I mean, this is the story of the game. The third quarter of the game, the Knicks were outscored, 23 to 11. 11 points in a quarter. And by the way, the calves are not exactly late the world on fire in the third quarter. Again, they only had 23 points and shot 36% from the field. Not exactly ideal.

The Knicks went three for 24 from the field in the third quarter, or one for 12 from three. and four for eight from the line. And that right there, folks, is how you score 11 points in a quarter and how you get down by 20 going into the fourth and go on to lose another game to a top team in the east. Hey, I got some good news. I got some good news for the Knicks.

Hold on. Let me pump some sunshine. Cat shot 100% from the floor. Well, that's what I was going to ask. Okay, just so you're describing a quarter from hell offensively. The Cavs, I will say, you know, they started, you know, they've been experimenting. They did this earlier this season, but now that they're fully healthy with Evan Mobley back, they, you know, Kenny Atkinson is trying to work with this big lineup where he's starting

Dean Wade. So they start three guys, 610 or so. I don't know how, I don't know if Evan Mobley is 610 or 611, but they start basically three big guys and trying to use size to their advantage. And I assume they started the second half with that. But anyway, Carl Town is just five shots. So you would think a guy who is such an offensive powerhouse when you need offense, that that would have been something you would go to.

There you are being negative. I live with the 100% from the floor. You got right to the five shots. Yeah, probably not great when you're an All-Star Big Man, who his primary jobs put the ball in the hoop, has as many turnovers as he does field goal attempts. You know, I'm going to call him Catspur, the friendly ghost today, because he was gone. Could not find him.

How long was you thinking about that line? Since the middle of the game. These things come to me. Oh, sure they do. By the way, Jared Allen after kind of a no-show performance in OKC, he was back on it tonight. Hey, you know what I was thinking about watching this game? No BS. I was watching the game, and Jared Allen was again, get.

buckets left and right. They showed a graphic during the game that with James Hardin, he's scoring like 20 points a game or 19 points a game and shooting something like 75%. His numbers are like six or seven points lower without them. And because I'm sitting here at Barclays, what I was thinking about was if the Nets had not given Jared Allen away in the James Hardin trade, training him for the 30th pick in the draft in that trade, the last pick of the first round, and it just insisted they keep him in the trade. I think the Nets would have won the title. when they played Chris Middleton, who was here playing for the Mavs and the Milwaukee Bucks in the second round, and lost the seven games here at Barclay Center when Kevin Durant's toll was about that much on the line at the end of the fourth quarter.

But they traded them because they didn't want to pay him. Well, they traded it because they allegedly needed to get another first round pick in the deal, and so they used Jared Allen to get one. I'm just saying. Right, but that was part of it, right? They didn't, they had Harden Cowan, I mean, Hardin Kevin Durant and Kyrie Irving, They couldn't afford another $100 million player. I mean, I think they could have afforded to have Jared Allen on the,

they could have afforded to have Jared out on the team. They're owned by a guy who's worth plenty of money. They chose to train. Well, there was also the whole, you know, before that, what helped shorten Kenny Ackison's run there was there was the whole, we've got to play DeAndre Jordan over Jared Allen, despite the fact that DeAndre was not exactly in his prime. and Jared Allen was an ascending quality starting big at the time.

So that was great. Now, to DeAndre's credit, he's in the Pelican starting lineup. Derek Queen is not right now. That's a whole other story. But that was part of the whole Jared Allen story in Brooklyn. Well, that is what I was thinking watching this game. I was going, man, what could have been for the Nets if they had kept Jared Allen and not had him as a throw in in that trade and had him on that team that year,

when they got James Harden, I think they win that series, and they probably win the title if they have Jared Allen on the team that year. Jared Allen, with the exception of Dudd and OKC, has been phenomenal since James Hardin's got there. And, you know, credit to Jared Allen, but that's also not a coincidence because we've said many times James Harden will absolutely maximize a big who's willing to screen and roll hard to the room.

And so they've got that going for them. you know, Donovan's still the franchise. Evan Moby's kind of getting his feet under him. But this was, to me, this game wasn't about the Cavs. This game was about just like the Knicks stunk it up. And honestly, the Knicks stunk it up for most of the game the other night against the Rockets and got lucky that the Rockets were just at their worst in crunch time. But the Rockets will blow a lead.

They can't close games. The Knicks took advantage. But the Knicks are not playing well. Eastern Conference is just really hard to read. It's just really hard to read because you're absolutely right that the Knicks, you would say, have had kind of a shaky seven days, but they had a win over the Rockets. Granted, it was aided by the Rockets bad offense. And then they were also getting blown out for large stretches of that game, too.

But they won the quarter. They did win. They did win. There's been a whole lot of Knicks getting blown out lately, though. They came back to win that one. They got humiliated by the Pistons. They got their butts whooped tonight. Right.

Towns played really well in both games over the weekend. They went to Chicago. Chicago's, you know, in the middle of, Chicago's. They're going to many tankers. They're going to many tankers right now. They had to squeak it out against the Bulls, which is as bad as getting blown out. Whatever.

Towns played well in that game. Towns had two good games over the weekend. There was a relatively significant amount of, you know, is Towns turning the corner. And then he has a game where he only gets five shots, which, you know, I didn't watch it. So I don't know if it's much on him or on the offense. Well, it gets back to the, like, all season long, Kat's not being featured in the offense has been a storyline there.

Well, and didn't Mike Brown say the other day, didn't he, Bontemps, didn't he say that there was more of an emphasis? Like, he was trying to. I mean, look, this was a couple points. This was a close game at halftime. the Knicks went one for 12 from three in the third quarter. Like, you know, they had a horrendous third quarter or, you know, it was a five-point game at halftime, whatever.

Like, they were right there in the first half. They had a horrific third quarter and missed a ton of shots. Like, this game, losing this game on the road to Cleveland, to me, is not like the loss they had to the Pistons without Jalen Duren and Isaiah Stewart the other day at the garden when they had already lost to them twice in bad fashion. Like that was a bad loss. This was just, they had a bad corner and they lost today. But in a game where the other four starters combined to go 18 to 56 from the floor,

I would like Kat to get more than five shots. You know, he needs to be more aggressive. They need to find ways to get him shots. You know, Brunson had a big time dud tonight. They're not going to win a whole lot of games. Brunson goes 6 and 19. But the Knicks are a very frustrating team. All right.

Well, a couple of notes on the Cavs. James Harden generally has been doing really well there, but he's not getting free throws, McMahon. I think he's averaging four free throws a game with the Cavs. He had no free throws tonight, but that said, he did have, you know, a number of assists. Donovan Mitchell had two 30-point games in the garden, and the Cavs lost both those games earlier this season

with, you know, not as much extra help. Now that he's got a fully built-out team, he goes five of 18 tonight. It does get seven times to the last 14 free-threat. I was seven fouls. Yeah, I was going to say a game after he didn't hesitate to agree to a leading question about whether OKC hacks a lot and gets away with it. Yes, well, the Cavs were one of a number of teams that, you know, over the last few years has said that, you know, Oklahoma City, you know, is very aggressive and fouls a lot. But, you know, you know that going into the game.

So it's, you know. Also, Jalen Tyson, who has. lost some minutes recently as the calves got fully healthy and made these trades. I think it was something that the calves were trying to do was to get him going again. He obviously has been one of the big stories for them. He got 27 minutes tonight. He had 12 points and eight rebounds of steel on a block. And the eight rebounds especially important because the calves didn't have great rebounding in Oklahoma City the other day. So yeah, I can't offer anything more. So I'll watch it here in a little bit and be ready for television tomorrow. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. So Monday Night Madness, Spurs and Pistons, I feel like going forward, we're not going to see these guys playing on Mondays, although I guess that's a national TV game now.

It's national TV. We'll see them. National TV every day, man. There'll be a national TV matchup for a while, that's for sure. So this was a tremendous win for the Spurs to go up there, to win their ninth consecutive game, to go up to Detroit and win. not as good of a showing for Kate Cunningham who had probably his worst game of the year. Five of 23 shooting overall, 1 to 15 in the second half of this game.

And I'm very glad that they will play again. I think they play again at the end of next week in San Antonio because I want to see the game plan that changes that these Pistons will make because, you know, what this game really illustrated is how a team may play the Pistons in a playoff series. And I want to get an idea of how J.D. Bicker staff and the Pistons would respond to this because not everybody's going to have Victor Wembe Nama. Yeah.

I was going to say, that's kind of a key. That's kind of a key thing. Yeah. But the key is, Wemba Jama didn't have to leave the paint. Well, yeah, this was an interesting box score on both sides. The Pistons go 7 for 36 from 3, and the spurs go 18 for 40, right? So 33 points plus. Which the Spurs came in, 23 in the league and 3. percentage. Like that is a really good game for them.

Right. Both teams are typically not huge three point shooting teams. That's a huge advantage. Plus 33. As far as actually were 39% on twos in this game from shooting wise, which is interesting. But if you look at this overall in the big picture, the story of the game is to go back to the conversation we had for Monday's pod about the Pates, about the Pistons, this game highlighted all of the concerns that a Pistons fan or someone who's studied that team close, would have about them in the playoffs. Like, Cade's going to have better games than this. He's a terrific player.

He had a bad shooting game. That's fine. But part of it, listen, he had a bad game. I'm just saying part of the reason he had a bad game is the entire Spurs defense was loaded up on Kate Cunningham, in part because, as you said, Brian, Jalen Duren, while a fantastic player, is not space in the floor. So Victor Mimiyama just hung out in the paint. And if they're playing some other team with another center, they could just hang out in

the paint and clog up the lane and clog up any ability for K to really get to the basket. And that made life very difficult for him. And there wasn't a plan B for the pistons to go to. I mean, Sartopsin, who obviously is a very interesting young player, he pretty much disappeared from the game offensively. Like, there isn't a lot going on there for him. He basically got benched in the second half. Right.

Well, because they can't score and he's a zero threat to do much with. the ball. So, you know, that is going to be something to watch, particularly for a guy who's going to be up for an extension this summer. Like, that's an interesting thing to watch. They don't have another guy who you really are concerned about putting the ball on the floor and making plays on the perimeter.

And again, like, they have some three-point shooting on this team, but you know, Duncan Robinson went three for 11, K went two for nine. Rod Holland went one for six. He probably shouldn't be taking six-threathed anyway. He got the minutes for over a Sart Thompson. Yeah. And some of those threes were invitation threes for

sure. Yeah. This is what I was talking about the other day. Detroit's had a fabulous season. I'm not saying they can't make it through the East Blouse, but they have some real questions to answer on offense. And if you are either a Pistons fan or anybody who has any skepticism about Detroit, you watch this game and you're watching it going, these are all the reasons to be concerned about this team's ability to make a deep run this season.

I agree with that. And also, there's not another guy who can do what Victor Wimmyne Yama does. Kate Cunningham was five. Not many can do what Stefan Castle does either, though. Yeah, that's the thing. You got to deal with Defon Castle on the perimeter, playing, you know, and a defense loaded up on you, and then Wimby's waiting for him in the paint.

And they, you know, Cunningham was 5 of 26. You were actually friendly to him, Wendy. Five of 26, three of his shots were blocked by Wimby, half of his six blocks Ron Cade Cunningham. And then he just, he affects the shots guys attempt. Like, there are many times where even if it's Jared Allen or Mitchell Robinson or like a mortal, very good defense big, Cade's attacking and trying to finish the rim. And like, it's, you can try against Wimby, but good luck to you.

They showed a smash cut of shots that people were just flinging up around the rim with Victor there during the game. And it was hilarious. I mean, it was like guys like we're seeing triple because there's this guy, there's Teradacto at the rim who's 7-6. and they just were like, where do I go with the ball? And how many times do guys dribble in there? And I say Victor leads the league and reconsiders by a whole lot. Guys dribble in there and like, eh, let's. And so you end up taking like a tough 12 footer or like a, you know,

like a long runner or like a tough fadeaway instead of trying to finish with the rim because he's that dominant. And the way you got to deal with Wimby on that and in the floors, you got to try to get him out of the paint and the piss. don't have the personnel to do that. Maybe beef stew if he's not suspended. He's worried about beef stew shooting either. I agree with him.

If they're playing the pistons, he can just plan himself in the paint and say, come get me. And there's not a lot Detroit can do about that. And look, like, if they're playing the Knicks with Mitchell Robertson, he is not, he is obviously not Victor, but he is big and he is very good. They've outscored him by 84 points.

Oh, you talk about the Pistons. Sorry. Yeah, right. And if they're playing the cast with Evan Mobley and Jared Allen, like those are two really good defensive big. that they could do the same thing with. Like, when teams get into playoff series with them, the adjustments are going to be a lot more severe.

Like you said, McMahon, they're going to be giving Assar Thompson and Ron Holland some of these guys' shots. And, you know, this is all part of the learning process. I think part of the reason Detroit didn't load up at the trade deadline was they wanted to get a real look at what this team could do. And that, you know, we're going to find out

over the next couple months. Well, and this was also why I had Wimby above Cade on the straw pole. And honestly, Wimby did not have a good offense a game. They were successful in kind of bullying him and pushing him around. He's just so dominant defensively that despite it. That was the top 5% offensive game for the Spurs for this year. So I just say a couple of things.

One, I watched all, I thought it was 23, but I watched all of Caged 26 shots several times over. And one thing that right out of the gate, not that I am ever going to pretend like I have any idea what I'm doing when it comes to coaching. But one of the things I will tell you right out of the gate is when you set, if you're going to have a screen on Stefan Castle, you better actually set the screen.

You know, so many in the, and this is common in the NBA, there's so many slip screens and so many, sort of just sort of get in the way because, you know, you can create space without actually making contact a lot of times. Nah, doesn't work with Castle because there was repeatedly times where they would run stagger screens. This was a big part of their offense, and you can tell as the game went along and a single screen

wasn't getting Castle off of Cunningham. They started running more stagger screens to run him around two screens. There was multiple times when Cade had two screens set for him and Castle got around them both. And a bunch of times they were half-hearted screens. So right out of the gate, I'm going to tell you that the Pistons next week are going to actually have to get physically in front of Castle and get him off of Cade. That's number one. The second thing is I'll never forget when I first was spending time with Victor in France, his coach, Vincent Colet, told me that he was the first coach, the first player he'd ever seen who

could defend the rim and the corner three at the same time. It's amazing. Which is a laughable statement. Which I was going to say, like, so while you do want to have a big that can stretch Victor out and force him to at least think about coming to the corner, even that is not a guarantee. No, there are no guarantees. But they're going to have to do a better job. And whether it's the Spurs or somebody else, when they get, when they have.

a really physical defensive team. They have got to do a better job of getting Cade open. You got to screen. You just have to screen better. And we should say, too, like, I don't know what you guys are thinking for end of season awards, but the Spurs are going to have two first team all defense guys for me,

assuming victory's eligible games-wise, because I vote's Devoncastle first team. Like, he is one of the two best guard defenders in the league for sure. I mean, all the guys, look at every guy that he's guarded. Like, he is an unbelievable on ball of defense. offender at this, even only in a second year.

Let me take it off ramp here. I have a correction. We never do that. I have a correction. I need to issue a correction. I made a throwaway line the other day on the podcast about how Luca Donchich likes pie. Leave those lines to me. I, and I will.

Especially when it comes to Luca. I have been reliably informed that Luke in fact does not like pie. So I want to apologize for implying that Luca likes pie. So I was just trying to be funny. I should know better than that. I apologize to Luca. Just read The Wonder Boy. It's right there over Tim's shoulder.

And you'll find out all you want to need to know about Luca. Right there. That's right. I believe he likes beer. I didn't say anything about that. I do. Can't confirm. But yes, Stefan Castle's numbers against the elite scores in the league are remarkable.

The eye test is all you need to see, man. I mean, he's just a monster. You can't get him. You can't get detached from him. He stays attached like nobody else. And he frustrates guys. And you saw that early in the game when he's up and Cade stuff. Cades off the ball and Cade had enough of it.

And he just like it looked like a- Tackled him. Yeah, it looked like a right tackle trying to run block and just ran him over and then kind of try to stand over them. Like, listen, the Pistons punk a lot of teams. The spurs are not very punkable. Well, they tried that game. Yeah, Kelton Johnson comes right.

over and says, you know, hey, get off my guy. Then David and Derns doing the finger wagon and all, you know, but like the Spurs is on. You're not going to punk him. You might push Wembe around a little bit, but you're not going to intimidate him. No, and that happened. I was wondering if we might see like the WWU and beef stew come running down the tunnel. We don't need that.

Which, by the way, I will say the other night, I believe was in Memphis, an underrated action between Myron Gardner and Scotty Pippin Jr. Did you guys see this? They both got fined for this. 35 grand. And Myron Gardner took a blatant cheap shot after Scotty Pippin Jr. hit a three. Scottie Pippin Jr. ran down to the other end and got up on him and let him know,

we ain't doing all that. Yeah. So he hit Pippin from behind and Pippin didn't see him coming. It was a blind shot. It was very reminiscent, actually, of the Mark, I believe it was Mark Keith Morris, to call Yolkich Steele. I don't know about that. That was a devastating blow that knocked Morris out for weeks.

I mean, he came up behind the guy and hit him in the back. I mean, it was the same play. Well, here's what I like. It didn't lead to an injury, but the same way. I like that Pippen just hunted him. He just hunted him, ran him all the way down the corner. He came down to him, said, I'm coming for you. I know.

I kind of respected him. Listen, Myron Gardner, if you've heard of him, it's because he runs his mouth a lot. I love trash talkers, but at the point, like, you've got to be able to play a little bit before you're going to be doing. Like, he's the one who Clay got into it with. And, you're like, Myron Gardner, you're on a two-way.

You can't talk trash to a Hall of Famer. You can't. He got into it, I think, with, uh, it might have been Draymond. A lot of people do that. But, like, I don't know, the guy, there's a lot of yapping for a dude who hadn't done anything in the league yet. I liked it. It was probably the highlight of Memphis's week, which, by the way, of all the tankers that are tanking out there right now, elite work being done by the Grizzlies. Listen.

I don't want to talk about tanking. I'm just, I just want to point it out. Every day, I just want my idea implemented faster and faster. I don't want to talk about tanking. I have a suggestion. It's my own fault. I'm sorry for bringing it up. The league office should have to approve 10-day contracts for losing. teams in the second half of the season. I'm serious about that.

How about you just as to do the wins matter rule? And then everything is fixed. I don't want to talk about that. We'll talk about that later on. Just there's some in a crowded field. You know who pulled off a really good tank? The San Antonio Spurs, baby. And they did it by personnel moves.

They did it by trades. But it's paying off big time. Here's a thing. For a tank to work, you've got to get lottery luck, which they have. They got lucky three years in a row, especially the first time. More hoop collective. Podcast after this. Speaking of successful tankers,

the Thunder one, I'm just kidding. No, you're not. I'm just kidding. I'm just kidding. What were Chad's numbers tonight? Chet had seven points tonight. But he's, you know,

all-star. No, I, you know, so the Raptors hosted the Thunder tonight. Thunder did get Alex Crusoe back, but obviously no Shakers of Alexander, didn't get to go home.

Well, he probably got to go home, but you get to play in front of his home fans. No Jalen Williams, no A.J. Mitchell. I will say, how about Isaiah Joe? That's, if we're going to help out, we got to go with Casey Wallace. We'll talk about. We'll talk about Case and Wallace. But Ryan likes to bring up Isaiah Joe every podcast. Let him bring him on.

I agree. Isaiah Joe. He's a good player, to be clear. He's a nice ninth man. Casea Wallace, boy. He's like a fourth man right now. True. But Case and Wallace, this gentleman is going to get paid.

The Thunder are paying a lot of guys now and the money is all coming on the book soon and you can block off some cash for number 22 because Kaysen Wallace is showing his remarkable value to this team and he had a big... You don't think he's going to get paid? Well, no, I... The Thunder have a lot of decisions to make this summer

and one of the decisions is, are they going to be paying Kays and Wallace because they do not have unlimited dollars to spend on their team, and they've got three max players who are all going to be on the books next year, and they've got to decide what to do with Isaiah Hartenstein, who has a team option for next year. They've got to decide what to do with Lou Dort who has a team option for next year. They got to decide what to do with Kaysen Wallace, who's going to be up for an extension this summer. Let me tell you some of their salary situations. So this year, J-dub, J-Lan Williams,

is making less than $15 million, I believe. So next year, Jaylon Williams goes for making... I want to talk about this year. I know. I want to talk about next year. You're not... I'm going to read them to you. He's making six...

It's six and a half million. Next year he's making 41.5 million. Nice $35 million jump. So let's just do a little math. That's $35 million. All right. Chad Holmgren is making... To make the math easy,

13 and a half million. Next year, he's making $41.5 million. That's a $28 million. million, Joe. All right. $28 million. Shea, it's not big, but he's, he gets a, he gets a raise from 30. Okay. And then his sister kicks in after that.

Right. Okay. So. Here's the thing, though. They've not paid the tax under the CBA. Next year will be the first year. They're a tax team. After that, they're getting an arena that was gifted to them by the city, essentially.

They paid $50 million. That's fine. That's fine. But right now, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. And they're the defending champions, and they're the favorites right now. So I don't want to put a lot of energy into, oh, my gosh, the thunder are getting broken up.

Let's see if they can defend their championship first. First of all, I didn't say they're going to get broken up. Second of all, right now for next year's team, if they opt in Kennerch Williams, and they opt in Lou Dord, and they opt in Isaiah Hardinstein, and they have the 15 guys on the roster, which, by the way, does not include their first round picks that they have, which they have multiple. they could have multiple lottery bicks, depending on how things go. They currently have a payroll of $250 million. The tax line is $201 million.

They would be more into the second apron than there is the difference between the tax of the second apron. So I'm not saying that the thunder are going to get broken up. I'm not saying they can't afford to keep most of these guys. Maybe they'll have all on the team next year. But I can promise you that teams around the league are looking at the thunder. and saying what are the fund are going to do with their roster this summer? Because they have a lot of awesome players and they're going to have decisions to make on who to keep and what to do with their team.

That's all. $65 million in new salaries, which, by the way, they got a chance to win the championship this year. We obviously haven't had a repeat champion in... Since 2018, eight years. What was the last time we had two years in a row where the champion wasn't in the tax? That's something I'm going to research. probably before the tax started. I think it was, yeah, yeah, because the Warriors didn't win 16.

I think, I don't think that I think they were in the tax in 18. But they kept not being into tax while having all those guys, which is a great deal. All right. Anyway, so the real thing is Isaiah Hartenstein has a team option for next year. Lou Dort has a team option for next year. Alex Crusoe is on a deal that pays them $20 million a year for the next three years. and the question, and then Kaysen Wallace has one year left at seven and a half million, and then he's a free agent.

So the question is, can they, because the thing about it is they can just keep Hartenstein and Dort and just leave them there, but then you risk losing them in free agency. And so the question is, do you try to do extensions with them? Is there a number that you can get with those guys for extensions? Because ideally, which you would not want them. So that's just the thing. Like, it's not a four alarm fire. Their three all-star players are under contract for a long period of time.

They have a whole bunch of draft picks into a place. But that's a thing. Having said all that, Kason Wallace, at some point by somebody is going to get paid. And he had 27 points. And he's probably made himself some money this month. No doubt.

Yes. He had 27 points, eight rebounds, seven assists. And he leads the league and steals per game. He only had one steal tonight. So he has not, and by the way,

that matches his career high with 27 points. matches his career high from February 1st. He now has six 20 plus point games in his career. Four of them are this month. And if you look at his assist numbers, he's got like five of his top nine or five of his top ten assist performances this month. Now, there's a very clear reason, right?

Shea's been out, Dub's been out. You don't have your MVP. you don't have your all-MBA secondary playmaker. You don't have a guy in A.J. Mitchell, who's emerged as one of the best sixth men in the league this year, who's your third best creator. They've needed Kaysen Wallace, who's, you know, he's made his impact primarily on the defensive end.

They've needed him to be an on-ball creator, and he has answered the bell. And this game, they were up out of 20-ish or so. Toronto came all the way back, tied it up with just a world. over four minutes left. Three straight possessions, Case and Wallace had two drives for nice finishes at the rim, and then a steel, push it in transition, kick it to Isaiah Joe for a three. Boom, just like that, a 7-0 run. And I, listen, I understand focusing on what's to come

for the Thunder this summer and looking at the financial forecast in the future. But the first order of business is defending a championship. In Casein-Wals' growth this month, him taking advantage of the opportunity that came from injury misfortune. This is a huge development for the Thunder's chances of repeating this year. I will just say one of the things that the Thunder are doing. So they played, by the way, Jackson says this month he's averaging 4.7 assists and 1.3 turnover. So basically he's almost at 5 to 1 assist at turnover. That's pretty good.

Thunder are in a little stretch here. They played Cleveland at home on Sunday win, play in Toronto. again, without three of their best players in Toronto on Tuesday, win. Oddly, the Raptors are a 500 team at home and one of the best teams on the road. I got to have to look more into that, but that is the case. Something to the Canadian currency rate, probably. But I will say that that's a good win. They go play in Detroit on ESPN on Wednesday, the second night of a back-to-back.

Detroit's going to be looking for vengeance coming off that. performance against or against San Antonio. But still, that's one. Then I think they go home and play the Nuggets. So interesting test for this group of guys. According to the timeline

that the Thunder announced last week, Shea's probably going to be re-evaluated. Not that he's not evaluated every day, but the official re-evaluation is probably before that Nuggets game. So both for Shea and A.J. Mitchell, who sounds like A.J. Mitchell, was pretty much recovered from the abdominal strain

and then sprained his ankle working out over the break. And they said Jalen Williams would be re-evaluated in two weeks. Yeah, so another week to go for him. Anyways, at least with Shea and A.J. Mitchell, sounds like those guys could be back pretty soon. But again, man, like the thunder's depth,

to be able to beat the calves and then the Raptors missing your top two players and three of your top six or so, That's pretty impressive. And to have a 22-year-old blossoming like this, who's already an elite defender, like you mentioned Stefan Castle's an elite on-ball defender. Case of Wallace is at least as good.

He's his least as good, and he is a big-time playmaker. Yes, Lee's Lee and steals per game. Just gets his hands on everything. But to have him blossoming like this on the offensive end, And I cannot overstate what a massive development that is for the Thunder. This is, you know, and that's the thing. Like, who knows? You get into a playoff series, maybe he is a non-factor in two or three games.

But then all of a sudden, it's, you know, 2-2 or it's 3-2. And, you know, you're trying to close a team out. And then, you know, maybe somebody gets in foul trouble. Maybe somebody turns their ankle. And then up, here comes this guy. And he can go right back to this, you know, this is the kind of stuff. You know, you may say, well, it's just a February game.

It's just at some Tuesday in Toronto. Oh, yeah, well, this kind of stuff can sometimes matter when you're trying to build out a title. Like, once you get the primary guys back, it's not even going to be about the numbers, but it's going to be about his comfort with the ball in his hands. Like, just to have that one more guy who, hey, if he gets the ball and it's a late shot clock,

you know, he can put it on the floor and make a play. Like, you know, it might be a critical late shot clock bucket here or there in the playoffs that can make the difference. For sure. All right. Well, ESPN, Wednesday night. So the other game on ESPN on Wednesday night is Celtics at Nuggets. Celtics are doing very well in their post-all-star West Coast trip. They've won seven out eight overall. Jalen Brown continues to put up strong games. And by the time, I've shouted out your poll a couple of times this week from last week, because especially after this weekend when the Celtics, just crushed the Lakers. I think held him to 8 and 9 points. After the game, LeBron gave Jalen a shout out and thought he was being underrated. And, you know, for Jalen, who's, you know, I think been fighting for, you know, recognition throughout the season,

I think he liked hearing that from a guy who he's played quite a few times against in the playoffs. Is it, am I being controversial if I say that I think Jalen Brown is being properly rated? No, not at all. He's a second team All-N-B-A player who finished sixth in the last straw poll. Got three third-place votes in the last straw poll, which has been any total votes as he'd had in the entire history of the straw poll before this season. And he finished behind Luke Kodachich, who's better than him, Kate Cunningham, who's better than him, Victor Wemanniamu, who's better than him, Nicole Yolkich, who's better than him,

and Chagas Alexander, the reigning MVP, who is better than him. And he finished out of Jan LaBrunsen and Donovan Mitchell, who were both also awesome players. Like the idea that he's, you know, being underrated or not giving enough respect or any of these things. Like, look, if you want to say, like, Jaylon's obviously having a fantastic year. His numbers argument doesn't stack up with these other guys ahead of them. And if you want to say the narrative of carrying the Celtics team to places we did not expect is his best argument, which, by the way, is a very fair and good argument. it's not as good as Victor's argument

and it's not as good as Cade's argument so he's properly rated he's a hell of a player he's going to be a second team all-MBA player he might be first team all-MBA he might be but those five guys

ahead of them I think are going to be the first team all-a guys yeah but some of them are close on the in games right if people get hurt then Jalen could end up higher but I'm saying based off the available information you know with Yannis out of the picture

those five guys are the first see Marlonia players. And Jalen will be right near the top of the voting for second team, which is a hell of an accomplishment. And there's nothing to, it's nothing to be insulted by. And it's not, it's not a, uh, it's not a disappointment or it's, it's not some overlooking of his candidacy. Just it is what it is.

I don't think it's fair to the rest of the Celtics to say Jalen Brown has carried them. That's not an accurate statement. Well, I'm just saying if you want, if you're. making the argument for Jalen Brown, he's their leading score, he's their number one option every night. Like, I'm just saying that's, it's a powerful argument. It just doesn't stack up with the guys who are ahead of them. That's all. And look, people, and I think nerdy numbers can be misused. And I'm not saying that he isn't a driving force to the Celtic success this season. But the simple fact of matter is the net rating with him on the floors plus 5.0. Their net rating without him on.

the floor is plus 12.7. Now, that's about rotations. It's about a lot of things. But my point is, like, you look at these other MVP candidates, like Wimby's got a massive net rating swing in the positive direction. That's always been a huge part of Joker's argument. Same with Shea. I mean, Jatham Brown is a deserving second team all-MBA selection. He's on the fringe of the MVP conversation. But this idea that, you know, he told, Melissa Rollin to the California Post something along the lines

of like, I don't know what the exact, I don't know if you have the exact quote. We don't even have to, we don't have to dedicate. He didn't play the game in the media so we didn't get the love.

Like, dude, you're on a Supermax contract because you've been all NBA before, right? That's voted on by the media. You were the Eastern Conference finals MVP that's voted on by the media. You were the finals MVP. That's voted on by the media.

There's not some media agenda against Jaylon Brown. When he got all NBA, it made him, he didn't make, you know, he earned it. But when he got all NBA, it was in the year that he got the Supermax. Exactly. That's what Tim just said. His stats were not as good as the five guys in front of him. And the narrative argument is not as good as the guy whose team is leading the

Eastern Conference and the guy whose team is a couple games out of leading the Western Conference. So, or the reigning MVP, by the way. Well, I understand that, but I'm just saying, like, narrative, like, those guys have the best narrative argument. but he doesn't have the first or second best narrative argument and he doesn't have one of the four or five best stats arguments. So he's right where he should be, which is no insult. So, you know, it's perfectly fine. He's perfectly rated.

Well done by everybody. Real quick on Denver, and now that I'm going to say this, they'll probably be awesome in the clutch. Denver, you know, lost the clutch kids, lost a couple of clutch games recently. They now have a losing record when games go to the clutch. They're 14 and 15.

They're net rating in clutch. performance clutch games is 26th. Their assist-to-turnover ratio in clutch games is 26th. You know, like, they are obviously struggling because of injuries, particularly defensively. They have no doubt they've had a lot of injuries all year long. Yeah, the gourd injuries, especially. I agree. I'm just saying that like, you know, Yokic and Jamal Murray, you have those two guys. Those guys have long histories of being great clutch performers, and it's just not happening this year. It's been baffling clutch misery for them.

And they're four and six since Joker returned, including one in five in clutch games. And, you know, they're hoping, you know, David Adamant said this afternoon that they're hoping to get Aaron Gordon and Peyton Watson back for the last 20 games, which would mean, you know, the next four or so games. It's been a wonky season for the Nuggets,

but I still would say that they're, going to be right there in the thick of things if they have a healthy roster come playoff time. I will say the teams around them in the standings, Houston, the Lakers, Lakers right now are in a neck and neck game with the magic across the street

from me, so I don't know how that's going to play out. But they've been, you know, there's some teams that around them that have been losing. So they haven't really like, they've lost ground it for the two. San Antonio's put some space out there, but they haven't like, you know, you lose three out of, you go three and six

in the West in different times, you could go from three to seven. But they have gotten a little bit of grace because some of those mid-table teams are I've got a question. Yeah. You're out there in L.A. a lot. Maybe I've missed it. Has LeBron lobbied for Lucas MVP? You need to speak to McTen about that.

Maybe I missed it. I haven't seen it. Well, I'm not going to say anything right now because, you know, he could have 25 in the fourth quarter. But he's so far to this point. He's not having a great night. But we'll see what happens. I think we should give a little attention.

to Jonathan Cumminga, who played his first game as a hawk on Tuesday night and put up a season high, 27 points. They beat the Wizards. And I have to assume that he was very pleased to get that. It comes at the expense, unfortunately, of Jalen Johnson, who had a hip injury in the first quarter of this game. And that said, I know it was a big moment for Cominga up on terms. Well, it's also, I mean, it's kind of fortuitous timing for Jonathan Camingo. Obviously, you don't want anybody to get hurt in the Hawks. Obviously, Jaylon Johnson's at a phenomenal year. They're all-star forward. But he left the game halfway through the first quarter, like you said, with a hip flexor injury. And sort of the problem for Jonathan Cominga is he landed in another situation where it's kind of an awkward fit. It's a little hard to play him and Jalen Johnson a ton together. And I mean, if Jailen Johnson could only play six minutes with a hip flexor, you would think he's probably going to miss at least a little bit of time. And that's going to give Jonathan Cominga a chance to step presumably into his spot in the starting lineup and have the ball in his hands a lot and get shots up

and make plays and do all the stuff that he has been wanting to do for a long time. And to come back and have this game right out the gate, you know, I know Quinn Snyder was intrigued about getting him on the roster and getting his hands on him and see what he could do with him. And, you know, now he's going to have a chance to have some runway potentially to have the ball and do stuff. So, you know, there'll be a lot of, I told you so, so I'm sure if we're going to camp today is that the injury depleted warriors

lost in New Orleans with a bunch of their guys out. And he had his best game of the season. got a win. I just, I dare someone in that Warriors beat crew to ask Steve Carr what he thought of Kaminga's debut for the Hawks. I dare somebody. We'll see if it happens. Friedel, you're the man to do it. I nominate this later. All right. Thank you so much to Devon, Mark, and Jackson, our producers. Thank you to Bob Thompson McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to the HOOC collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios Migos.