Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Clutch Thunder Win, Tatum Injury Impact, Pacers Eliminate Cavs

Episode Date: May 14, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk the Thunder growing up right before our eyes, another huge battle from Jokic & SGA, Haliburton leading the way as the Pacers eliminate the Cavs and what a big opportunity exists in the Eastern Conference going forward. Then, the guys talk what the significance will be of this year’s NBA Draft Lottery before breaking down the impact of Tatum’s injury in Boston and the Wolves' chances to end the Warriors' season. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the HOOC collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Wednesday morning after a tremendous game in Oklahoma City.

Joining me from New York City is Tim Bontemps. A couple of tremendous games tonight. We forgot about a game involving a certain team in Cavs Corner. And also, it's a tremendous night because this afternoon we did part of this podcast and I had to babysit two people. I had to babysit Tim McMahon, for usual. And I also had to babysit the young king who I had to watch while his mom went shopping for the first time. And so during the pod, he was sitting next to me. And believe it or not,

be no noise. He's a very good little boy. Yeah, if you want to, yeah, if you want, I would say that McMahon would join us later, but technically, he'll be later in this broadcast or whatever you want to call it. There'll be some time travel on the pod. But it was actually done earlier while I was in Los Angeles. Now I'm in Boston. But he's in Oklahoma City right now talking to the folks after this game. And we're going to start right there. Fondemps, not because Cavs Corner has collapsed, but because the quality of this game was extraordinary. This was a vintage playoff game between superstar players, throwing haymakers at each other, war in the trenches, players going from goat to hero, high pressure, everything you could ask for a game,

especially in a 2-2 series. and if the Oklahoma City Thunder have had a more impressive, valuable win in the last decade, I don't remember it. But they were down nine points in the fourth quarter of this game. It was looking like they were about to suffer a terrible defeat. Then Lou Dort, who was really not effective offensively for the first three quarters of this game, hits some threes that races the deficit, and then it's Yokic and SGA. going back and forth, back and forth, back and forth, a little Jamal Murray, a little Jalen Williams,

who hit a huge shot. Would you say the biggest shot of his career, Bont Temps, in the fourth quarter? I mean, there are a lot of biggest shots of in this game. And look, to go back to Lou Dord, let's just go back to the start of the fourth quarter, because I think this really summed the game up. Yeah. The Thunder are down eight to start of the fourth quarter. Their season is on the line. I tweeted at the start of the fourth quarter that these 12 minutes, I think, could decide the title. I think they did decide the title. I think Oklahoma City, if they win the series, should be seen as the heavy favorite to win the title.

They're going up against Nicole Yokic. We obviously know what happened in Boston. These are, to me, right now, we said it in the first round. Clippers, Nuggets look like a conference semifinal. This looked like it was going to be a conference final. This has been a conference final. The Thunder are playing a championship team.

They're down eight at the start of the fourth quarter. And David Adelman, the interim coach of the Nuggets, so I think soon will be the full-time coach of the Nuggets, I'm guessing. He goes for the jugular. He leaves Nicole Yocich on the court. Doesn't take him out. Not only is Shea Gilhous Alexander on the bench for the Thunder.

In the middle of the fourth quarter of this game, they're playing Jalen Williams the center. Not Jalen Williams the wing. Like he's going all the way into his bench as if it's a fairly normal game. And he did that because he trusted their 10-man rotation and all their guys to play roles. And if you go back to game four, the close of that game, we talked about it the other day. Lou Dort was horrible in that game. And Mark Dagnall did not play him in the fourth quarter.

Played Cason Wallace, played Aaron Wiggins, played Alex Caruso. Those guys carry them home. This game, he's got Dord out there. Dort hits three threes in a row, gets the thunder back in the game. But it looked dead in the water. They couldn't hit a shot. And that faith in the team, coupled with Denver running out of gas down the stretch, it really proved to be the difference in the game.

And I totally understand why Adam and did it. This is not like what the Lakers did playing their starting five the whole half. Like you have to win that game. If you're the Nuggets, I get why he rode Yokic. But that depth combined with Shea shot making late, that was the difference in the game. And it might end up being the difference in the series. It could be the difference between determining who wins the title. Depth and size.

Depth and size. obviously you got to have star quality, which this game did, but depth and size it. So the other day, I think the bench scoring was like 33 to 8 in favor of the Thunder. It was not as lopsided in this game. It was 22 to 11, 22 to 10. But you look at the bench production from the Nuggets. Westbrook, Peyton Watson, Julian Strother were three of 13. So they just didn't get much offense there.

Down the stretch of this game, though, it's a tie game. I think it's about 92-92 or 94-94. And then Shea hits three, he gets three huge shots, one on a spin move, one on a mid-range jumper where he gets fouled for a three-point play. And then one on a dagger three ball, which takes a lead. Yeah, pull up three, the dagger shot, the MVP moment. I mean, he steps up, up three, chance to do the kill shot. and just buried it. And by the way, by the way,

you know the last time the Thunder missed a shot in this game? Good question. I don't know. I can tell you, with four minutes and six seconds to go in the game. How many a row is it? I mean, they scored one, two, three, four, five, six, six possessions.

And then if you count the free throws at the end, I mean, they scored, on seven consecutive possessions. Wow, I mean, that's just, I mean, and Denver was all over. It wasn't like it was bad defense. And the one play, they doubled, the game was tied again. And they doubled Shea late in the shot clock, which is what they should do. He swings it to Lou Dort.

They run at Lou Doort. He swings it to Jalen Williams. The ball hits him in the corner. He is open because of the rotation. Another guy who'd had a very rough game, had a very rough game for, and just drained the biggest shot of his career. you said early. And that broke the tie for good. I also want to say that Yokic, Yokic hit 17 to 25 shots. He had 15 rebounds. So he had 44 points. It was an absolutely

amazing performance. He hit two shots and respond to this Denver thing. One of them was a pirouet three-pointer from 27 feet. Would you see? How else was a fadeaway Sambore shuffle over Chad Holgren at the top of the key? At the end of the shot clock when his team was down three. The difficulty slider on that is like a thousand. Oh, my God. What? And it was one of those where he throws it like 17 feet in the air and the damn thing just blasted through the hoop and you're like, how did it go in?

I need to go with an iconic Joker's Wild Call on the TV. Just a perfect summation of the play in the moment. And look, I mean, Yokic, I mean, Yokic is just laughably good. Like the stuff he was doing in the fourth quarter of this game. Like, it was just an iconic performance. And again, this is a legendary player. Like we've talked about this before, Brian, right? The best games in these series are when the home team in the series is down to one,

which is what game four was. And the team, the underdog in a series has a chance to go up three one, these two, two tied games. And then obviously game six and seven when you've got legendary players like this with a chance to either close it out or avoid being closed out. And Nicole Okich came into this game and was like, hey, I'm going to try to win this series by myself. And he almost did.

I mean, nobody could hit a shot. Right. Jamal Murray had 28 points, but he's 10 of 27, three of 13. Jamal was awesome. I mean, it was the two-man Murray and Yolkich game and action that I thought it's,

look through three quarters, like it was going to get Denver this win. Yeah, but Jamal's one of six in the fourth, though. I mean, he's, he. I mean, look, they ran out of gas. They ran out of gas. And it's not, again, like they're playing with six guys. and their depth has not been there.

We've talked about it all year. It's a big part of why Calvin Booth is no longer the GM of the team. And Michael Porter Jr., Russell Westbrook and Christian Brown combined to shoot what? I want to say five for 27 from three, I think, in this game. Well, I mean, I haven't looked at our stats and info group yet, but I'm pretty sure in the fourth quarter, Yokic was four of six. Okay, he's four of six in the fourth quarter. And oh, my God, this is a devastating statement. at Bontems.

Okay, fourth quarter, Yokic goes four of six, hits that one three-pointer. The rest of the nuggets in the fourth, one of 16, one of 15. Yeah, and look, what happened in game five last year

of this same series, right? In Oklahoma City, game five, Maverick's Thunder, Derek Jones, Jr., the PJ Washington, hit a million threes, right?

That was what won the series for Dallas. Like, yes, They had Luca, they had Kyrie, other stuff was going on. But those guys stepped up and buried shots late and the Thunder didn't. And in this game, it was the total inverse. The role players for the Nuggets were left open. They were leaving Russ wide open.

They were daring him to shoot down the stretch, couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. And it's Lou Dort, it's Jamie Williams, Isaiah Hartnstein had a couple big buckets. And that allowed them to be in position to let the closer go to work. And then Shea just made several magical plays in a row and pulled this game out. But, I mean, that was, that was why I, it's why we love doing this job. Like that, that is just one of the iconic games. And this series has been everything we could have hoped for. And I look for this, I mean, we've joked about Sam Presti talking about this team last year,

having to eat their breakfast and like, this is a young team learning how to play and learning how to win in these spots. Good luck beating Denver in Denver in game six. with this guy on the other side. I have a feeling we're coming back to Oklahoma City for game seven because I just don't know how they're going to beat Yokic again in his whole court because, I mean, he's just, this has just been unbelievable. Just been unbelievable to watch.

So Jackson has a staff for us. Yokic's third game this playoffs with 35, 15, and 5, the most in a postseason since Wilt in 64. Of course. Whenever you touch Wilt, you're touching greatness. Well, soon it's going to be Wilt and Yokich, because Wilkich is starting to have about as many will. And I would tell you, by the way, the nuggets are one of 12 in the fourth quarter on threes.

The one was the one percent, 99 percent difficulty, one percent make percentage. I actually was almost as impressed. So the way the thunder were guarding him, they were putting Isaiah Hartenstein on him, and then they were rotating Chet Holmgren. Holmgren was, I don't know what's kind of stats he put up, but he was, as a help defender, was just smothering. He had several massive. either blocks or alterations of shots in the final couple minutes of the game.

So Yokic gets isolated on the wing with Hardinstein. Hardinstein's head snaps back. I didn't actually see on the replay if he actually, Yokch, Mioch must have got him with a shoulder or an elbow or something. Well, Yolkich, Yokch was doing several either borderline illegal things or just frankly completely illegal things and they were not getting called in the final few minutes of this game. So he gets around Hardinstein and Holmgren comes flying at him

from about maybe 10 or 12 feet. And Yokic puts up this floater over the top of Holmgren that, again, this thing is 14, 15 feet in the air. And it kisses off the backboard like it was. Just absurd. It was like a feather. And it came into the basket. Just dropped in. I mean, the difficulty of those two shots are insane.

Insane. And so, look. Denver is a player short, at least maybe two, and the fact that they were on the razor's edge of winning this and potentially taking leverage, you know, I mean. And by the way, coming off this absolute slug fest of a first round series, like, I mean, they've been playing every other day for two weeks now. Like, it's not like they came into the series rested. I mean, it's just, it's on, this has just been unbelievable to watch.

Just absolutely incredible. Well, the thunder, the thunder grew two inches tonight. They, they, that was a real, that put hair on your chest. It's two straight games too, where they're down in the fourth quarter and things are looking rough and they find a way to pull it out against a legendary player first on the road, then at home. Like, this is, this is why we talk about young teams having to go through it and learn how to win in these situations. Like last year, Thunder were in this exact same situation. They showed on the broadcast. They'd love three straight game fives, right?

Like they've been in the situation before. They haven't gotten it done. It looked like they were in massive trouble at the start of the fourth quarter. They didn't panic. They stuck to who they are. They did their stuff. And they won the game. And it was just,

I mean, that was, you're not going to watch a better basketball game than that, ever. Like, it was awesome. And the other thing is that, you know, and look,

I don't know how much you can ask out of him anyway, but their sixth man is Russell Westbrook. and he's turned he's turned back into a pumpkin. He's six of 27 the last three games. That's not to say that he won't have a impactful game six. This is Russ. It's what he's going to do. Like he's going to have a couple games where he's going to play well,

and then he's going to have a lot of games like this. He's been doing this for years now in these spots in the playoffs. He's just not a guy you can count on and rely on to consistently make shots in the playoffs. That's why he keeps bouncing around. That's why his teams keep losing. and he's had some moments in these playoffs. It's not like he's been a huge negative for him, but if you have them out there in the fourth quarter of the game

and they're leaving them wide open, he might make one like he did against the Clippers, like you did earlier in the series. He's not going to make a lot of them. It's just not. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay. I defended the Cavs,

especially because I've felt that the calling them having a collapse was unfair due to what I felt was injuries affecting them. I defended the Cavs even harder in Cleveland, in media in Cleveland, because there was people coming for their neck because they thought they were playing soft. He's a company fan, folks. And it was a, you know, and look, I knew they weren't coming back from 3-1 down. But the display that the Cavs put on, and by the way, like, and, I'm a, you know, and I'm a, you know, I've been doing this for a couple weeks now, and I'm going to do it again right now.

We're not going to talk about what happened to the Cavs without first talking about the Pacers, who now are 42. And so I'm going to keep updating the stat, 42 and 16. We'll get to the Pacers in a minute. We're going to, just one second. Just one second. All right. All right.

Another absolutely brilliant performance from Tyrese Halliburton, who was an absolute killer in this series, 10 to 15 hit six threes was plus 27, eight assists. He is having an absolute dominant playoffs to this point. Single-handedly turned this game around in the second quarter. The Cavs had could not, they could not, they had no hope against him for the whole last 10 days. Well, let's just say, now let's get to the Cavs by saying this about the Pacers. The Pacers completely took the will from the Cavs in this series.

like there's just no other way to say it. We talked about in game four how the calves are completely on tilt and got completely in their heads about the physicality and kept trying to like get physical with the pacers which is not who the calves are and it didn't work. And in this game, they jump out to the early lead and it's looking pretty good

and then Tyree starts hitting threes. He had four or five threes a row in the second quarter. They start walking the calves down and they just... I think I sent you a text early in the fourth. think it was still like a three or four point game. I go, the Pacers are going to win this going away. It was in the middle of the third quarter, and they did go running away. And look, you could just feel it. You could just feel that the better team had been completely established. That's the thing. They just completely took the will away from the Cavaliers in this series.

And that's where to me, the Cavs shut down, the Cavs shut down. And that's where to me, like, I'm sorry, these guys are all out there playing. Like, I'm not saying they're 100% healthy, but this isn't about injuries. It's just not. And we talked about it the other day. I don't think we're not talking about blowing the calves up. I'm not saying that this is the worst loss in the history of the world. The bottom line is this is a gigantic disappointment. This is a team that won 64 games.

This is a team that was coming off obliterating Miami in the first round. Looking every bit, as you said earlier, like a true number one seed. And it came into this series. And right from the jump, they get outplayed in the fourth quarter of game one. They have the awful collapse in game two. with the guy sitting out. And then after they come back and play well in game three, they get murdered in game four and they get run off the court for most of the middle

part and latter part of the game in game five. Like there's just no other way to say it. And this is just a massive disappointment for a team that had a lot of high hopes and had this incredible season to lose in the exact same game they lost in last year. Yeah, I don't, I always thought the Celtics would would beat them. I thought it was going to be, I thought it would be a series. I thought that would be a real back and forth.

I suspected that that could be a six or seven game series. But I always, I didn't believe that this team was a, well, I didn't believe they were the best team in the East, but I believe that they had a chance at winning the East. And the last two games, you know, Darius Garland was definitely dealing with the foot. he was 4 of 16 in this game,

0 of 6 on 3. He was definitely being affected, but that doesn't explain the Cavs basically stop running their offense. One of the things about the calves that they did amazingly all year was they ran their offense, ball movement, ball movement, shoot the three, shoot the three. Their three-point shooting completely abandoned them. And the whole playoffs, really.

But one of the reasons why it abandoned them is that they didn't work to get open shots. They, you know, yeah. Well, and look, the calves are used to playing fast, right? Caves like to get in their offense. Caves like to play fast. But I don't know how often we saw the Caves having to play fast going the other way, too. Right. They couldn't play fast against the Pacers.

They had to slow the game down. The only way. That's not it. The Pacers always are going to play fast. That's the thing. And the Caves played fast all season. But that's my point. Well, I know.

But the, no, right. The Caves couldn't play the Pacers game. And when they slowed down, they weren't effective. Well, that's, and that's, that's, that's, that's, They slowed this game down. They got the lead early in the game because they slowed the game down. But that was never going to last. That's the thing.

The Pacers have been remarkable. They're probably the best running team we've ever seen in the playoffs. I'm fascinated by it. We constantly talk about the playoffs slowing down. The Pacers over the past two years have continually played at this frenetic pace. They kept it up from the regular season. And the calves wore down from it. And here's the other thing.

We've talked about it a bunch. Yes, the Cavs have Jared Allen. Yes, the Cavs have Evan Mobley. They don't have another plus defender you can rely on in the playoffs on the perimeter, especially. Oskicororo is not a 16 game player. He's not. Their starting lineup is not good enough defensively on the perimeter.

And you saw it in this series. The Cavs have, well, just real quick, the Cavs were going up against Aaron Neesmith and Andrew Nemhart, right? And they couldn't guard them. And those guys could guard the Cavs players. and that and that was a pivotal reason why the series went the way it did. To that point, Kenny Atkinson recognizing that like Ty Jerome couldn't athleticly, first off, Ty Jerome couldn't hit a shot really, the whole series.

He had a couple when he came in late, but he recognized he needed athleticism on the perimeter and Jerome wasn't giving him the offense anyway. So he didn't play Jerome in the first half and he played Isaac Acora over him. Not because I think he thought Isaac Acora was the answer. but because Ty Jerome wasn't. He didn't have another answer. Right. There just wasn't any athleticism on the perimeter.

This is a guy who finished in the top five for six men of the year, and he wasn't able to play him. Yeah. Okay. That's what happens in the playoffs. You learn a lot. You learn a lot. And Nemhart is, talk about a guy would want on my team.

Holy Moses. He had another. Engine Emhart's awesome. Awesome game in this one. just was like far and away better than any of the calves wings. Backstreet's, by the way, was O of nine in this game. You know, he would now. I mean, again, Nemhart is a guy who can get into you on defense, can run the offense.

Mentally tough. Mentally tough. Didn't shoot the ball well this year. But when he's open in the playoffs, you expect him. Well, you expect him to make it in the playoffs. And like they, again, like the calves don't have anybody like Aaron E. Smith on their team. They don't have anybody like Andrew Nemhart on their team. They just don't.

And you can only get so far, I think, in the playoffs, if you're relying on your two bigs to guard everybody. It just isn't a realistic way to go. And you look at these other elite teams across the league, they've got a lot more defensive options than that. Jackson has a stat from Genius IQ, IQ, which is tracking. The Pacers pick the Cavaliers up on the guy bringing up the ball and average of 52 points, 53 feet from the basket. It's the highest pickup distance by any team. since tracking started in 20 and this is in the whole series yeah i mean that's what that's what the pacers do they're relentless and that's the thing so so garland was dealing with a bad wheel

and mitchell was wearing out and he couldn't play jerome all right those are your three ball handlers the pacers are like we're going to pick you up in the back court and so and it got to the point where they were like they were they were using a coro to bring the ball up a little bit because they needed a third guard to bring the ball up, and the Pacers swarmed on him like vultures. Yeah. And that's their game. Like that,

that's their game plan. That's their game plan against anybody. And also, they just had great shot making. I mean, you know, that helped the margin in the series was the shot making. They had great shot making,

but they also got a lot of wide open shots. Like, they weren't taken that many massively difficult shots. They were able to get into the paint super easy. Well, again, super easy. You're playing against a team that doesn't have the ability to stop the ball. I mean, in a lot of ways, this Cavs team is a lot like Donovan Mitchell's team in Utah, where that team was, I mean, it was really just Rudy Gobert, right?

But if you think about that last Utah team, the one that lost the Clippers and that famous game, when Rudy got run around on the perimeter when they were playing small and passing it, that jazz team had the same problem. It was, we have Rudy Gobert anchor in the paint, and we don't have anybody on the perimeter between. between Mike Conley and Donovan Mitchell and Joe Ingalls and the collection of guys they had that could really consistently stop the ball. And you just said it. The Pacers were able to get into the paint, spray it out for threes. Tyrese Halliburton was unbothered most of the time. Nemhart was comfortable getting in the lane whenever he wanted. And on the other end, the Pacers make you play faster.

They make you play their game all the time. And it's a mentally and physically taxing way to play. And it frankly, it just looked like as the series went on to captain. just ran out of gas. Yeah, and the three-point shot, which was the Cavs biggest weapon offensively during the whole season, the Pacers had 14 more threes

in this series than the Cavs did, which, you know, if the Cavs are even with you in threes, their design is in trouble. If they're behind by 14, you know, basically just under three a game. Like, they're being trounced by their... Well, let me ask you.

I mean, look, you pay... I mean, we joke about it with you about Calf's Corner, but you, you, for many reasons, are paying more attention to the calves and basically anybody. So they just had this incredible season. Yeah. They win 64 games. One of the best seasons of franchise history, the best season without LeBron, I would say, in franchise history coming into this, right?

They lose this series in this fashion, even if you factor in the injuries. What do you go? Where do you go from here with this team? What do you do? Well, they're going into the second apron. So, you know, that's difficult when you're talking about it. you know, they don't have enough perimeter defense. We just laid that out.

They're, you know, look, they have small guards, okay? They have small guards. And there are certain things that you can do to mitigate that, but that came home to roost here. And they're, and like, by the way, if those small guards are crushing it offensively, which is what they did during the regular season, your problem isn't as big. but at the end of the day, they have small cards. And so...

What have we talked about a lot in the playoffs? Positional size, right? And when you're starting Max Struce at the three and then Donovan Mitchell and Darius Carlin in the back court, that's not positional size at the one to three. That's true. That's why they went out and traded for DeAndre Hunter, who, you know, I think the Cavs,

the Cavs mental toughness was poor in the series. Their physical toughness was in question at times, but they're not designed to be a physically tough team. They're never going to be the bad boy pissens. This is why I tell people in Cleveland,

that's not who they are. If you think that it's going to be Lambeer and Mahorn out there with Mowgli and Allen, you're going to be disappointed every night. That's what happened in game four. They were trying to be that, and it completely threw them off their game.

Well, they were never mentally in game four. The mental, the lack of mental edge that they played game four with is frankly inexcusable. The lack of execution that they played the end of game two with was inexcusable. And tonight, they were reduced to one pass,

and they looked afraid at times tonight. So, but again, I think a lot of it comes down to the Pacers breaking the pipes. 100% with the pressure. And so if it is Nick's Pacers, like the Knicks fans were not happy with me today that I was saying that I'm not assuming that that series

is over. I may have had Knicks fans reaching out to me personally offline saying, what's going on with Winhorse? Why does he hate the Knicks? By the way, I don't disagree with your opinion on this series. Well, what happened was, you know, like I get aggregated by my own network, but like I go through a five-minute long thing where I praise the heck out of the Knicks. And then I say, but I don't think this series is over yet.

Yes. And what gets aggregated is. And they clip off the five seconds. Yes. I would agree. I can't do anything about that. But what I'm saying here is the Pacers, assuming it's Pacers Nix, that's going to be a halacious series. Alacious.

If indeed it comes down to that. Well, and let's call it like it is too, right? We're going to talk about, we're not going to get too into Jason Tatum now because we talked about it earlier slash later in the pot. But here's the bottom line. There is a cavernous opening in the Eastern Conference. Jason Tatum is probably not going to be in the picture for the 25, 26 season. maybe he can play late in the season. I'm going to assume he's back for 26, 27, hopefully at 100%.

Right? The Celtics have been the dominant force of the east for the last half a decade, and they were looking like they could be the dominant force in the east for the next half a decade. For the Pacers, for the Knicks, for Cavs Corner coming back next year, there is a massive opening and opportunity at the top of the conference. And so the next few weeks and the next few months leading in the next season, if you're any of these teams that have designs on trying to compete in the East, this is a massive opening that has been created by the terribly tragic situation

that's happened with Jason Tatum in the Celtics. And we will see who could take advantage of it. But Indiana is sitting here remarkably with this team in back-to-back conference finals. They very well might be the team to take advantage of it. Because we haven't really seen anybody find a way to solve the way they play even last year when the Celtics beat them. Tyrese Halliburton was hurt for a couple games in that series, and the Celtics still needed a lot of things to go their way to win in four games.

They easily could have lost two or three of those games. So, I mean, I'm with you. This Pacers team is awesome, and they play a super fun style to watch. And if we have Nick's Pacers 30 years on from eight points in nine seconds after the series they had last year, the series they had in 2013, the series they had in the 90s, that's going to be some all-time fun stuff,

especially with the TNT crew doing this for the last time, and therefore I assume a certain guy who used to play for the pacer was calling every one of the games and the guy who authored the eight points in nine seconds. And I suspect he'll have a lot of fun with that. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, welcome back to Hoop Collective. It's now like 10 or 12 hours earlier.

I'm on the West Coast. When my flight's on time, how was the meal service, did I sleep? what happened in the Cavs Pacers game, what happened in the Thunder were they playing, Nuggets game? We don't know. But what we do know is joining us from the Paycom Center here on this lovely afternoon is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners. I'm going to talk softly and quietly.

I'm tiptoeing. Don't want to draw the ire. Brian, Wendy Winnie Winhurst, I sure hope you sleep. I know you're a first class kind of guy. I hope it's one of those lie flat sleeps. You just get a little siesta, a little bit cranky these days. You know, I'm going to be nice. I understand. They're working you hard and you take it out on me.

Well, listen, we would have done this in the normal way, but you probably will be working until three in the morning. And we won't be able to do. I was banned from the first half of this podcast for drawing your ire. I'm glad you let me back in the back half. Yeah, well, behavior. We'll just cut you out altogether. All right.

And obviously, Bontemps is back with us. All right. I want to start with the events of the lottery. I know that we did the, the emergency podcast where Teper's got a little raised. I was trying to get back to my job, you know, of covering the Celtics Knicks game, which was mildly eventful. Your job of doing that from Los Angeles? That's an interesting way to phrase that.

Yeah, when you were at the game, I agree. You were getting it back to as well. You were covering the game, which ended up being somewhat eventful, which we'll talk about in a minute. McMahon, the lottery people are all up in their feelings about. it. But I would just say, I would be stunned, now that I've had 24 hours or not even whatever, to think about it. I would be stunned and talking to people in the league if the Mavericks didn't embrace Cooper Flag and say, we'd love to have you, Mr. Flagg. You're going to be a Maverick for years to come. How do you feel about that? Well, the Mavericks cannot publicly comment or commit. I'm just going to tell you that my understanding, I haven't spoken,

spoken directly to Patrick Dumont, but I'm very comfortable saying that Patrick Dumont completely recognizes what a gift horse he's been given and he ain't going to look at it in the mouth, that he understands, hey, there were some major business concerns coming out of that one little deal that they did on in early February. And this mitigates those concerns, as we discussed last night. He understands that long term, boy, there were concerns about who those picks are due, 27 to 30. How are you going to handle that after this three or four year time frame is over? Well, getting this generational talent addresses that. The Dallas Mavericks will draft Cooper Flag with the number one overall pick.

If we are going to talk a lot about the Yonest trade and we can begin that discussion as we did last night with the number two overall pick perhaps being in play. So a couple of months ago after Kyrie Irving got injured, Tim Bontems came on here and said that the Mavericks should consider. consider trading Anthony Davis. It was a fascinating thought exercise. Cooper flag is 19. Anthony Davis and Carrierving are in their 30s. And Carriving has a torn ACL. Is flying even 19 yet?

It will not be 19 till December and they should. I was so thrown off by the events of last night that I didn't even think about that prior point. And yes, this honestly should only make them trade Anthony Davis all the more and just repositioned the franchise around Cooper Flag. It is a gigantic gift that this went this way. And I know that they're not going to trade Anthony Davis and that's fine. We could say that.

But like the bottom line is if you're just asking what is it should the Dallas Mavericks do? They should build this team around Cooper Flag and they should trade Anthony Davis for an absolute mountain of stuff and start over. I mean, it's what they should have done even before. And now with this guy sitting here, it's, I mean, it's what they should do. But it's also a move point because it's not what they're going to do. Yeah, I just don't see that being a move that Nico Harrison makes as the Mavericks General Manager. I think both of you have very savvy viewpoints on those two things.

Let me just ask you this. I think a big thing will come down, McMahon, to do the Maverick C Cooper flag as a guy who in three or four years is a top five to seven player in the league? or do they project him to be a top 15 to 20 player? Because that affects how you're going forward here. And by the way, if you're number one draft pick overall, that's the top 15 to 20 player, that's awesome. I'm not, I'm just saying like, I mean, but that's a thing. Like that is going to inform how you're going to approach the next few years.

Well, and what I would say is that's not something they need to have a firm decision on, on June, whatever it is, 25th. agree, you know, when they make the pick. And that's something like, dude, you're allowed to kind of, you know, get them into Summerlee and see how that goes. And then get them into training camp and see how that goes. And then get them into the preseason, which, oh, by the way, guess what? Oh, guess where the Mazz preseason opener is and guess who it's against? Our buddy Mark Stein had reported that the Mavericks and Lakers will have a preseason game in Las Vegas of all places.

Oh, yeah, Huber Flags preseason debut, you know, knock on wood that he's healthy and Luke is healthy and all that will be against the Los Angeles Lakers and Luca Donchich. I think you're going to be in Vegas. Will you be in Vegas before then, McMahon? I believe, well, I'll certainly be making a summer league appearance. Hope to see you boys there and a whole bunch of our friends. We'll see what happens there. We'll see what happens there. Go on. Maybe like a big old room full of our friends. Oh, okay. We'll see. We'll see if people want on that. And then look, let it breathe. Let them play his rookie year. You don't have to make these decisions right now.

But obviously, the hope is that this guy is going to be a generational talent, you know, all first team, all NBA type of player. I mean, this is the thing, though. That is kind of what you do have to do if you are the Mavericks. You do have to start looking at that immediately because, again, we're talking about a team that is currently built for the next three years, right? And yes, you now have Cooper Flagg, who has a 10 to 15 years. your time horizon, hopefully.

But by the time Cooper flag is, even on the fastest timeline, by the time, Cooper flag is an all-star caliber player, let's say that's at best his second season, right? Realistically, it's probably his third season, right? At that point, Anthony, yeah, hey, Luca was second year? What? He's not as good as Luca? Come on.

I mean, he might be, but I mean, if you want to say second year, fine, but this year is probably going to be a solid player. the next two years, you could probably expect to become an all-star caliber player. By that point, Anthony Davis is going to be, what, 35? Like, so that, I'm not saying they should trade Cooper Flag today, but I just mean, do you have, the two things are not. What's that? You're not saying they should trade Cooper Flag.

No, I'm saying, I'm not saying they need to trade Cooper Flag to get a player to help them win today or that they should do that. They obviously should not. But for where Dallas is sitting right now, like, yes, for all the reasons we talked about, they have very limited assets going forward trade-wise, right? They have very limited long-term prospects going forward. Obviously, getting Cooper Flag is a monumental win for the franchise. But it doesn't change a lot of the short-term questions, which are Kyrie Irving's probably

going to miss the vast majority, if not all of next season with a torn ACL. They have nobody who can dribble the ball on the roster. they have an aging team without a lot of ways to materially improve. And now they especially have a roster that's incredibly slanted toward the front court. So as we get into the summer, like, yeah, I don't, I would agree with you. I don't think they're trading Cooper Flag for any, under any circumstances. But I'm telling you they aren't. I know.

I'm only saying that because I never imagined Luca Dantra should get traded. I agree with you. I do not. Cooper Fly is going to be a Maverick. But it does feel like there's still going to be some rather big moves ahead for the Mavericks this summer because this roster currently doesn't make sense. Like I think you've talked about it a couple of times. Daniel Gafford and Derek Lively and Anthony Davis all on the team. It makes no sense.

It makes no sense at all. They have to trade one of them. There's a summer. You know, there's free agency, which obviously they're pretty limited in. Well, Kyrie, you have to deal with Kyrie. Well, you have to do that. But I'm saying like, again, just like this is a hypothetical that is my idea, not like sourced information. Just be clear.

But like could a guy like Dennis Schrooter be somebody that you're able to, you know, maybe there's not much for market there for him. I don't think they could afford Dennis Schrooter. Well, maybe not. But again, that type of veteran, you know, or like a Tyos Jones even, you know, because it's not like, like if you can get the ball to AD and. And even Clay Thompson, these guys in their spots, like they have offensive firepower. They just don't have the offensive initiator. But what I would also say is, again, PJ Washington is going to have trade value. I would recommend exploring that.

Same with Daniel Gaffer, just given the circumstances, what you got on the roster. What I would also say is after the ringer that Mavericks fans and that franchise has been through over the last few months, And obviously he was self-inflicted for the franchise. But after that ringer, let's let them enjoy this gift for at least 24 hours or so before we start going all gloom and doom on them. Something I want to say about all Janus trades, by the way, whatever Janus trades come up. One, you guys know how I feel, and I've talked about, I'm not alone, but it's very hard to have three big salaries in the NBA today. And so this isn't just what would happen with a Dallas trade. And I agree if one of these salaries is Janus,

I'm not arguing that Janus shouldn't be one of them, just to be clear. But if you are a team like the Mavericks, not actually the Mavericks, like the Mavericks, and you have AD on your roster, and you have Kyrie on your roster, and then you bring in Janus on your roster, it's not the most efficient way to build a team. Certainly, if all three of those guys are in their 30s, double certainty if some of those guys have a history of injury

problems like AD and Kyrie do. The idea of building out a roster where one of your best players is on his rookie contract is extremely intriguing, which is why San Antonio all of a sudden makes so much more sense with Victor on his rookie contract for two more years. It buys you time to build up your roster, which is why San Antonio's situation is so fascinating. I will also say San Antonio, you know, people are thinking about, well, the number two pick might be available for Janus. It might, they might trade the number two pick for somebody else besides Janus. You know, you know, there's, you know, there's going to be, you know, some of these teams that, that have a bunch of assets that just struck out, thinking they were going to get in the top four, might want to do business to get in there. And it's going to depend on how much the Spurs value Dylan Harper.

Dylan Harper is viewed as the number two pick. The spurs might look to trade this pick, but not necessarily for an instantaneous star player. Or they might draft Dylan Harper and move forward. So I think is what you wanted to do, Bon Temps. Is that what you said last night? Yeah, I don't. I haven't liked the Aaron Fox fit nor the trade from the beginning for San Antonio. And I like to me, they've got again in a similar fashion.

Like they have been handed a gift when, I mean, they might have made the playoffs. if Victor hadn't had the unfortunate blood clotting issue. So if they can get Dylan Harper, who I think's got a chance to be a really nice long-term fit as a big lead guard to go with Victor and turn around and trade, I mean, they could trade Darren Fox for a bunch of stuff. Like you could do that and then turn around and get other stuff to, you know, supplement the team around them. So, you know, again, do I think that's going to happen? Probably not. But it's certainly something if you're San Antonio. I think you have to sit and look at because, again, do I want to pay Deer and Fox the money it's going to take and lock him in as the number two or maybe number three guy in my team?

Like, I don't know. Like, I just don't know. We talked about this last night. You've got to ask number one as well. Well, and Ms. Johnson from Mike Wright and Jonathan Gavoni's story last night had a very interesting quote. It says, when you jump into the top four again, you put yourself as an organization in place to make a really big acquisition with a really good player. And that's what we're going to look forward to doing. A really big acquisition.

An acquisition can be a trade or it could be a pick. But, you know, obviously the Spurs, I would think, would be open to business. on numerous avenues with that pick. By the way, one other quick thing, one quick thing real quick, the Pelicans representative at the lottery was interesting. Zion Williamson? Zion Williamson. Do you put the guy on the stage if you're planning to shop him?

I don't know. Were they sending a message there? That was interesting. Well, if they had won the Cooper Flag Lottery, they played the same position. It would have been interesting. Before we move on, I want to say two things real quick. Number one, sorry Bulls fans, but you know back on April,

21st something momentous happened I don't know maybe the Bulls fans have already heard this there was a coin flip you know because the Mavericks and the and the and the Bulls had the same record and the Mavericks won the coin flip and got the set of numbers assigned to the number 11 seed or 11 hole whatever and the bulls got the number the number the numbers assigned of number 12 and the number 11 numbers came up that's one number two what I want to know all about is we talked about this a little bit last night, but in the room, Sam Presti is sitting there when the first two numbers come up. First number comes up, it's Dallas. Second number comes up,

it's San Antonio. Both those teams were behind the spurs, I mean, behind the Sixers. So for that minutes, while they were resetting the machine, the Thunder had the seventh pick and the Sixers were out. And I want you to think about the different outlooks this Sixers off season, because they're hamstrung really to improve that team, I think, unless you disagree about theubs. And it's really disappointing because now it goes to top four protected and top fours is not like, I can't, that doesn't make any, it's not a good nickname. I know, it sounds good as top six years. But anyway, I want you to just think about that three minutes.

That coin flip back in April, coins in the air. And I want you to think about that however long in between. There is a video you can watch it. Yeah, it's pretty quick. I'm traveling to Boston later today. First half of this, five was from Boston. It's a real gigantic bummer of what happened. By now, we'll all know, I think, the severity injury,

as we're doing this as it's in the morning here in Los Angeles, it hasn't been out yet. But with all due respect, and I hope that it's not, this looks like a severe injury. Bontemps, Jason Tatum might have been about to play one of the greatest games of his career. And that is one of the reasons, one of the many reasons why this is tragic. I happen to believe that this series isn't over yet, and that's not an insult to the Knicks.

It's a commentary on what I think about the Celtics and the way they tend to win when you think they're going to lose and they tend to lose and think they're going to win. That's not what I want to focus on. I want to spend this minute, Bon Temps, focusing on what you think this means for the Celtics going forward here because they were already headed for what I have called a pinch point in 25, and now their whole world got turned upside down. Yeah, I mean, look, I think it's not hyperbolic to say this injury is one of the most, significant in the history of the NBA. When you look at Jason Tatum, who is about to be named to

an all-M-B-A-first team for a fourth consecutive time, I looked it up earlier today for a piece I'm writing about this and the lottery together. There will be 43 players in NBA history who have made four all-M-B-A-first teams in their careers after Jason Tatum is named to a fourth straight. And he is 26 entering his prime. He's been one of the most durable players in league, as we have talked about a lot. There's a lot of discussion about where Jason Tatum sits in the league, all this kind of stuff. The thing that he never gets credit for and has really never talked about is he's always available. He always plays. He doesn't really have any weaknesses in his game. He's able to defend. He can handle the ball. He can shoot. He can do all

this stuff. He bounds great. Right. He's just, he's a, he doesn't have necessarily the peaks of the guys at the very top, which is why he's maybe the fourth or fifth or sixth best player. We're still talking about a guy who's the fourth or fifth or sixth best player, who is the face of one of the dynastic teams in the league, a team that had been the dominant team in the east the last four years, was very well positioned, even if they had to do some cost-cutting moves to remain the dominant force or a-dominant force in the east for the rest of this decade. That is not hyperbolic to say either. All of that now is up in the air. We have talked a lot about what the Celtics will be looking at this summer from a financial standpoint. This team can't be a second apron team this summer if this injury is what we think it is.

You can't do that. You have to get retrenched. A second apron repeanor team. Right. You have to, you have to retrench yourself and start to prepare for the 26, 27 season. This is an Eastern conference that we already look at as the lesser conference of the two. The Celtics were the one truly elite team in the east. I mean, for whatever injuries have befallen Cavs Corner,

it's safe to say the Cavs have not shown to be the team they were in the regular season. So going forward, there's now a cavernous hole at the top of the conference. We'll see how long it stays there. We will see what happens with Boston this summer between the sale of the team being finalized and whatever moves are made. We have to see what happens with Jason Tatum going forward. Like Kevin Durant is probably the best analog for what you hope this. looks like. Kevin Durant came back and has been a phenomenal player. He hasn't been quite the same

player. Jason Tatum's a little younger. Hopefully that will help him recover in a better fashion. He's obviously a maniacal worker. I'm sure he's going to do everything in his power to get back to where he can get to. But I just had a, I was sick to my stomach all night last night. And you just hate to see guys have this kind of situation happen to them in the playoffs, going for a chance, to repeat, first team to repeat since 2018. And I've been in a lot of locker rooms. I've never been in a locker room as quiet as the Celtics locker room last night. There was a single noise made for a half an hour.

Nobody said a word. Nobody did anything. It was just everybody knew how bad a situation it was and everybody knew what it meant for the franchise, not just for Tatum, but for the franchise going forward. And there's just not many situations like it in the history of the league. And we were all in Boston in June when the confetti fell. And it's their 18th, you know, that tie-breaking 18th championship. But it felt like it was the first of multiple, who knows how many, but of multiple championships

for this Celtics core, for this core that is built around Tatum and Brown, the gifts from the, you know, from the KG Pierce trade after the last title. And by no means, is it a guarantee that they can't continue for championships, but it's absolutely obviously a disruption. And they're going to have to make the cost-cutting move. I mean, Drew Holiday being the most likely, you know, certainly, you know, there's a number of teams you can come up with like, hey, boy, if I drew all day, that mix. There's just a ton of different things that now are in play that weren't, There would have been a minor.

Minors may be strong, but there would have been a cost-cutting move. Yeah. If they were healthy. And now, who knows what's going to happen. Yeah, I think there was a good chance that one of their top six might have had to been salary maneuvered. And what this does is it basically crushes any hope of the Celtics repeating. It crushes any hopes of the Celtics being able to win a championship next year.

What I don't want to do. that I, first off, I don't know if Tatum is going to be out all of next year. Secondly, I'm not convinced this series. I agree they're not going to win the title, but I don't think this series is over. Yeah. And, you know, I would not say it's over either. I am not making plans, unlike McMahon, who was off for weeks after the first round. I'm not making plans beyond game five for my personal life.

I'm not saying it's over and never underestimate the heart of a champion, as Rudy Tom Jonovich would say. You know, and I am assuming, unfortunately, the, it's a worst. case scenario injury for Tatum, but like based on what we all know and saw, it's the most likely case. I will say Jason Tatum is a Hall of Famer already at the age of 27 early age of prime. And by no means do I think we should rule out Jason Tatum being an all-MBA player down the road. Totally agree. He's still going to be a 6'8, 6'8, 6 foot 9, extremely skilled, gifted, physical player.

and the medical technology obviously is improving year after year. Achilles for surgeries and recovery are much better than they were even five, seven years ago. Yeah, and Kevin Durant being the extreme example of it, he was obviously well past. I firmly believe Jason Tatum is not done collecting first team all NBA awards. Agree. After what Bontem's just described there is the state of the Eastern Conference, which I agree with. If I'm Janice and I have agency, I'm staying east. Why does he have agency?

Because he's going to be able to say to stay with his contract. Where? Well, we have a while to come up with that. And we're at the end of our show here. So we're not going to deal with it right now. But that's a good question. But if I'm Janice, I'm saying, you know what? I don't like that Western Conference.

I want to stay East. So that's all I'm going to say. Also on Wednesday night, the wolves will try to close out the Warriors. All I'm going to say about that series is that last year, the wolves had the nuggets exactly where they wanted them. They let the nuggets come back on them. They won the series, and by the time, McMahon, you and I got to Minneapolis for game one of the conference finals, they were totally mentally and emotionally gassed.

Maybe they'll be beaten in the conference finals again this year. But this time, they're trying not to be gassed when they reached the conference finals. I saw that in the way they approached games three and four. All I'm going to say is fear the wrath of Rudy Gobert on his revenge tour when he's got a chance to eliminate a guy who's been really, really mean to him. We saw what happened to the Lakers. Oh, ho. He's coming for you, Draymond. All right.

Hope you get some sleep there, Fondtems. I'm going to try to go to sleep. I've got, I literally just got a text seconds ago asking me if I could be on at 7 a.m. So. Tough life you've got. Windy, sleep update. Thank you for, thank you to Jackson, our producer, for staying up overnight. Thank you to Bontemps, thank you to McMahon.

Thank you for listening and watching the deep collective. We'll talk to you a couple of days, if not soon. Adios megos.