Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Concern For Knicks? 76ers Healthy? + Huge Lesson From Rookie Extensions

Episode Date: October 22, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Vincent Goodwill and Bobby Marks to discuss the impact of some extensions around the league before discussing the significance of the injuries on the Knicks and if the 76ers are healthier than expected. Then, Cavs center Jarrett Allen joins the show to discuss the outlook for the upcoming season in Cleveland, the NBA’s movement back to an emphasis on size, his unique wedding dance and more. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. The Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon, NBA opening day afternoon. Joining me from Naples, Florida, I am now aware that this is his 31st NBA season.

It doesn't look like a day over 28. Bobby Martin. Hello, gentlemen. How we doing? Another year, another storylines that will come out of this year. We don't know what storylines those will be. Joining us from New York City, where he'll be going to the. The Cavs and Nix on Wednesday night for that big opener is our man Vinnie Goodwell.

What's up, Vince? That's nice. Season 15. 15. I think. I think 15. If you're counting my years as a features writer for magazines, 18. Oh, you got to count everything.

Yeah. 18, 18. My internship year. You got me, come on. We will be joined by Jared Allen from the Cleveland Caves a little bit later in the podcast. I am coming to you from Los Angeles, or I am for opening week, and I kind of stumbled into national news getting to Los Angeles, and I feel like I should just tell the story real quick,

because I was quoted in the New York Times today about it with Mr. Winhurst. It's never a good thing when you're quoted mist as mister. That's what I learned. So yesterday, I boarded my standard flight from Omaha to L.A. there's now two a day that's a big development but it's been one a day for years and i've taken this flight dozens of times and everything was normal took off on time everything was absolutely nothing remarkable about it headed out here supposed to get out here at eight o'clock you know get ready for the first day about 10 minutes into the flight uh all of a sudden we took a very

hard you turn and um i always sit by the window i always have the window open i make no apology for it. This is one of the reasons why. It might be a good idea to pay attention to what's going on. Anyway, I was just trying to sign on the wireless. You know how, like, you know, it takes about 10 minutes to get over 10,000 feet, especially if you're on a regional jet and they got Jankey wireless, which it does. And right as we're doing the U-turn, I'm like, this ain't right. Like, you know, we're supposed to head west, California's west, into the sunset, and we are turning around and headed east. And we're no longer, you know, going up. So I'm like, something's going on.

And then right as I was trying to sign it on the Wi-Fi, it said how many minutes left in the flight. And it should have been like three hours and 15 minutes. And instead it said 14 minutes. And so I knew that they had already changed the flight computer. And I knew that we were going back to the airport. So my concern at this point is what's wrong with the plane? Nothing's going on in the cabin. And then I notice that the flight attendant from the back of the plane, there's two flight attendants.

It's a regional-style jet. I noticed the flight attendant in the back of the plane has come up to the front of the plane. And this dude is like late 20s, early 30s, and Vinny, he's jacked. Like, I'll put it this way. Nobody, no one person on that plane was going to get past that guy. Maybe if you ganged up on him. And he was standing up there talking to the other flight attendant at the front. And next thing I know, I hear, like, what is that sound?

What is that sound? and there's no announcement at all, nothing. And I'm looking out the window, and we are now, like, descending. People around me, maybe a couple other people around me are noticing it, but most people have put their shades down. They're on their screens. They're, like, taken off. They're not, I don't think noticing anything's going on.

And meanwhile, like, above the, like, where, like, the bathroom is at the front of the plane, there's red lights on, okay? Which, you know, I didn't, like, alarm me, but I don't remember seeing red lights like there before. It's knocking, knocking like this. And so I realized that it's a flight attendant knocking on the cockpit door, knocking on the cockpit door. And so I was kind of worried about the plane, but now, and I see or she picked up the phone once or twice, you know, the phone that calls the cockpit. And for a split second, I wondered, does there something going on in the cockpit? But then I realized we're descending. It's okay. And it already said that we were

going back, you know, the flight computer already been changed to go back. I mean, they had announced this. I just kind of deduced it. And so she probably, she knocked on it a bunch of times. And all of a sudden you hear the gear, the, the, the, the, you hear the sound of the landing gear dropping. And as soon as that happened, the flight attendants ran and sat down. The one of flight attendant ran to the back. And that was what I think the people on the, on the plane kind of like, wait a minute, I saw a bunch of people put their window shade up, like, wait a minute, why is that happening? What's that sound? And so we're near close to the airport at this point.

We make a left-hand turn to line up with the runway. I've made this turn a hundred times. And I can see the runway and there's emergency lights all over the runway, which I was like, that's for us. So I'm like, okay, but the plane is not, there's nothing happening with the plane. There's no smoke, no, no funny noises, no nothing. So now I'm thinking, I wonder if one of the pilots is something wrong with them medically. because nobody in the cabin is in trouble because the flight attendants are at the front, right?

So we come in, the airport is right on top of the Missouri River, you fly over the Missouri River, we land, no problem with the landing. So to me, the drama is kind of over. Like, I don't know what's going on, but we landed safely. Well, we immediately pull over to a holding pad, not the terminal. And as we're pulling into the pad, the plane gets surrounded by, police. Now, there are also an ambulance there and a fire truck, but it's a police that's around it. And I can see out to the barrier road that's next to the tarm—the, like, with a

parking spot there, there's more police cars coming in at speed, okay? And this is not a medical thing now. So now I don't think the pilot's medical. It's now a police thing. But there's nothing happening in the cabin and there's still no announcement nothing no one said anything okay and so they rush up stairs to the to the to the to the door like you know like air stairs like and uh three cops come up on the door and the flight attendant stands up and opens the door and the cops come in and two of the cops immediately go to the flight deck the cockpit and one of the cops comes right into the cabin he goes Is everybody okay? And I'm like, you tell me.

We're all fine. Like, what happened? And so finally, that's when the pilot opens the door. And what had happened was the pilot lost communication from the, with the flight attendants. Apparently, the flight attendants accidentally left the, like the microphone open. and so the pilots were hearing static and like wrestling around and whatever

and they were trying to get a hold of the flight attendants the flight attendants weren't answering. The pilots said he tried eight times and then they hear banging on the door because the flight attendants couldn't talk to the pilot. And so the pilots declared an emergency and told the air traffic control. I'm looking forward.

There's websites that track air traffic control and I'm looking forward to hearing what the pilots said because the pilot apparently said that people were trying to break into the cockpit. So the thing about it is, is that I honestly believe that the flight attendants and the pilots were feeling way more stress than the passengers. There were some passengers who knew that the knocking was going on. It may have been kind of aware. I was kind of aware it was loosely what was going on. And then when they got on the ground, but when they got on the ground, like, I know that the pilot had the flight attendant's

cell phone number. I know they did. But the pilot was not open in that door until it was the police. So you got delayed four hours. The flight attendants ended up like bugging off. The pilot stayed and flew us on to L.A. But we got new flight attendants. I don't blame them. They were under stress or whatever. So yeah, I think everybody did what they were supposed to do. But it became national news. And I got interviewed. I got a bunch of interview requests because I did one interview at the New York Times and people reached out to me because it was, you know, the pilot declared that someone was trying to break into the cockpit. So, That's how my season started, Bobby.

It was like, you know, remember that video when Clay Thompson was walking the streets of New York? And they randomly interviewed somebody. So I'm glad you said that because at the end of the New York Times interview that I did, the guy got a hold of me. And at the end of the interview, like, he's like, can I get the spelling of your name? He was definitely not a sports fan or whatever. And I go, okay, just so you know, if you put this in the story, it might seem a little bit strange. So just so you know, I, I, Bont-Hemps and McMahon will be all over my ass if they heard me say. Like, I kind of am a small public figure, you know, and Bobby, I thought about that, you know,

like the person, you know, Clay talking about the scaffolding in New York City. Well, you don't want to give like a wrong name and then all of a sudden now they're like going through like, was this person really on the plane? Right. Right. Exactly. And then, and then I did an interview with ABC local in Omaha. and the woman, and very typically of Omaha, she didn't know who I was.

And so she's like, can I do a Zoom interview? And I happened to be in one of our studios when I was talking to her. I go, okay. So I will do a Zoom interview. But just so you know, when the Zoom comes on, I'm going to be in a television studio wearing a suit and makeup. So don't like think that that is like a weird thing or whatever. Don't think that's for you.

That's what you were telling her. Essentially, yes. I'm trying not to be a, right? Vinny, I'm not, I'm just trying to like, you know, if it was you in that role, right? you would not want to like, all right, anyway. Oh,

oh, O'Brien, you absolutely don't know me that well. I would make people as uncomfortable as possible in that spot. Do you have a makeup, sir? Why, yes,

I do. This is a zoom in of you, right, for, you know, ABC, I heard from television. I dressed in my Sunday best.

I got, you know, I went out and got great lights. It's actually better lighting than I've got him for this, this YouTube pod right now. Okay, so that's what happened. I'm sorry.

for that digression. We talk about the NBA. I was very brave during it. I was never, you know. Profiles encourage, Wendy. I would have been, I would have been, I would have been on, I would have been, I would have been, I would have been, the will is in the bottom draw under my desk. Everything is belongs to you moving forward.

Yeah, I did. I did. I did. I did enough I was going to make it to L.A., you know, I mean, I ended up making it, you know, like at 12.30 a.m. but I was like, you know, hey, this is just going on. And they were like, oh, man, do you like, do you just take some time? And I was like, I was like A plus for managerial sensitivity.

Yes, you were well trained. I thought they were going to send, we're going to send a Disney jet out to Omaha. Thank you. Thank you, Bobby. You need to represent me. That's exactly what needed to happen. Wendy, here's a cheat code. Here's a cheat code in terms of loved ones.

If you send your loved one, whomever, the flight number and. and whoever it's on, all they have to do is it's basically a link. The two letters, the four numbers, it's a link. And all they have to do is click on it. And you don't have to do anything. They will see the exact flight path. Like you don't send them anything from the airline or anything. You just send them DL, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

And when they click on it, they will see that your flight turned around. Like if your wife had seen that, she just thought that your flight had turned around and would have been going back crazy trying to figure out what's going on. I don't think my wife was, if my wife tracked every one of my flights, that's all she'd be doing. We'd tracking that. No, she was worried about it. The thing was, I told her after we landed, because I kind of thought the drama was over. I was like, hey, just so you know, we returned to the airport.

Because I was like, you know, I may be coming home in an hour, basically is what I thought. And then all of a sudden, the police start surrounding it. And then I real, and then, so now I'm texting her like real time updates. That's when she got worried. So, anyway. So, Bobby, Monday was, by the way, I had just gotten off the phone with like four agents. When I was in, I spent like an hour, the hour in the, in the, in the whole leading up to

it talking to agents and teams and stuff about, um, the deadline deals. I know this is coming out. We'll have had the, uh, the rockets have, will have played the thunder and, um, you know, the, uh, the Warriors and Lakers here in L.A. tonight. So, but we're doing it before the pod. So we had some extensions, uh, that went down, um, on Monday, Bobby. And basically, everybody pretty much got. within a few million dollars of each other.

Christian Brown, five years, $125 million. Well, what did you think? Well, okay, Christian Brown got five years, $125 million. Dyson Daniels, the exact same amount, one year, fewer, four years, $25 million. Aaron Neesmith got a two-year extension from the Pacers for $40 million. Who else am I forgetting, Bobby,

from the rookie extensions? Shane Sharp on, what was that, Sunday night? Four years, 90 million. Tammari, not a rookie, but a vet. What was Tumani Kamara's deal? Four for 81, I want to say. I kind of like that deal for him. Yeah, I do too.

He's a good player. And he's starting. They just sent out there. Jeremy Grant's coming off the bench for the first time as a trailblazer in Portland. How about that? Well, I just point it this way. I like the Tumani Kamara contract. better than I like the Jeremy McMahon contract.

No offense to Jeremy. That is a sixth man. Who I really like. Yeah. You know what? Interesting, guys. It's, there was like some trends here.

It's the fewest amount of extensions that we've seen since 2019. There's only nine. We kind of got a little bit spoiled. 25 the last two years, 11 last year, 14 the year before. We always see a mad rushed on that day on the day before, the day,

the last day that Monday. Last year, we had seven players here. I don't know if that's going to be a trend moving forward. I thought we would see maybe a little bit more, maybe one more two. Tar Yessen was a name that we certainly could have seen here. But now we've got 12 restricted free agents that enter next year's free agency. The veterans is at 13 right now, extensions. I talked to a team. This was a couple weeks ago about this. And I said, pay attention if there's a low number of extensions, that means that free agency starts to come back a little bit, just because there's a probably more quality of players that will enter. And you look at whether it be Benad Matherin or the two in Detroit with Duren and Ivy and Eason, all players, Mark Williams

will be interesting in Phoenix, all players who have good seasons could be really appealing potential free agents next year. I think Bobby, one of the first things when, when horse was, as my rabbi, he put me on the phone with Bobby Marks and then Bobby sent me this great big file, right? So then we get bigger. Isn't that file amazing? Vennie? Isn't that file amazing? It's Yoda. Right? Jeannie in the lap. Like anything you can find Bobby Marks has it. And we get to talking about how this rookie class will not see the exorbitant extensions. Like even Keegan Murray. Like I'd heard that. was a wide golf between what he wanted and what the kings were willing to give. So I was kind of surprised to see that extension, especially once he got hurt, even though this is a relatively minor injury, all things considered. The ones in Detroit I'm really curious about because I know they want to sort of keep their powder dry in a way.

They don't want to go full bore in with all of these young players because you can't pay every single young player, especially when you got Kay Cunningham on a big boy, you know, Supermax, a rookie Supermax that kicked in because he made all NBA last season. I'm not so, Jayneyev is the one that I think we're going to have to watch during the season. I think Jalen Durenne, I feel like he's a strong building block, especially sitting next to Kay Cunningham. Jay Nivey, I'm very fascinated by the type of year he's going to have and what he's going to look for this summer. Yeah, from what I understand, I don't think they were close in Detroit. And also, I think Houston's interesting.

Houston was interesting. So, Bobby, they've been very disciplined in their contracts. Raffelstone has, who's a lawyer by trade and negotiated a lot. Before he was picking players, he was negotiating contracts. And you can see it in the way they negotiate all the way back to when they were building this team to how they, you know, did the contracts with Fred Van Bleet. They've been very disciplined. So they do a Jabari Smith deal over the summer for five years and $122 million. And then they get Kevin Durant over the weekend to take how much of a pay cut, Bobby? That 30 million. Yeah, over two years.

So, you know, and there was a lot of optimism that that deal was going to get done. I think Durant was interest was, you know, Durant was willing to come down because I think he knew that, you know, they're trying to fit all these guys in together. But then when it comes to Tarry, Yessen, you know, I do, from what I understand, they made Ysson a strong offer. It was in excess of $100 million. But I don't know how much of it would have been guaranteed. And they didn't do that deal, you know. And so here's a team that extended two guys and didn't extend another guy. And the other thing I'll say, Bobby, is that, you know, this is the aprons at work.

Like talking to some agents, one of the things that they felt the teams were emboldened by was that there was no offer sheets given out over this summer. And there was not a good summer, 2025 for Capspace, 2026, there will be a number, a lot more teams. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. But the restricted free agents, the teams controlled those negotiations in 2025. And he's like, this is one of the things. Everybody is worried about the aprons. And so they're not giving out offer sheets.

So the teams feel less worried about going to restricted free agency. We're seeing that play out. Yeah, I mean, I always say rookie extension. Unless you're Palaboncaro or Jalen Williams, Chet Holmgren, the Max, those Max guys, they are the hardest extensions to negotiate if you're an agent. Because there's really no, you're not competing with anybody. You're just competing with the deadline, the 6 p.m. Eastern deadline on Monday. And it takes you to compromise as far as maybe what, you know, you might think, Dyson Daniels might think that he's a Jalen Suggs contract or Christian Brown. And you can say, well, maybe that contract might not age great in Orlando based on his, you know, where he is health-wise.

And hopefully he gets back on the court. We saw a lot of extensions that were less than what they were last year. The Keegan Murray one was the most out of the non-max players, which was at 140. You mentioned Tarisen. Tar Easton's an interesting situation because Kevin Durant extends on Sunday. And then you're thinking, all right, now there's enough meet-up. on the bone for Tarisan to come in and extend and give them the flexibility to stay under the second apron next year and still add a little bit in free agency here. You have to remember that,

and it's not just about next year, who's coming up the following year. Now, and then Thompson is rookie extension eligible next year. So now you have to take that into consideration as far as where that number is going to be. And for a guy who's a sixth man, every player now, it feels like you're kind of tiered, right, based on where you are. the pecking order. So if you think, if you think Tarisen's a $20 million guy as your sixth man, and that's what his number is. Now, I do know that there was, as you mentioned, there was a lot of dialogue as far as here's a player that's, you know, played all 82 games his rookie year and then played 22 and 57 the last two years and had missed a big chunk with a leg injury.

What is, can you get some protection on there where maybe the contract doesn't become guaranteed if he suffers an injury here? And I think. there was a lot of discussion going back on that. Eventually, I think time just ran out on them as far as where they were with that deadline. If this was a summer, then you can say a deal is going to be played out. But he's going to be an interesting guy to follow because certainly with no Dore and Finney Smith to start the year, his role will be probably like it was, you know, the last couple

years. Yeah, I think Houston is a classic case. You know, the Thunder as the champions with. three max players are the test case of the apron system. Can they keep this team together? Can they keep them powerful enough to win multiple championships in this era of all the, of parity? But the rockets are right behind, Vinnie, like they are under the gun to, to try to

keep these pieces together. And they obviously have to plan on who they got to pay, including Amen Thompson, who's eligible to be extended next summer. and this is what top organizations now have to do. They have to manage every dollar years in advance to try to keep everything in line so that they don't basically spill into the aprons and have their opportunities potentially diminished.

And it feels like, and Bob, you can tell me if I'm wrong, the philosophy used to be pay the players, worry about the bill later. Like before the aprons kind of came into effect, So if you had to wind up dumping some of your players and you could sort of rewind the clock, so to speak. But now there's fewer of those transactions to be made because even if you're a bad team, you want to keep your powder reasonably dry so that you don't approach the aprons. You don't want to have your ownership coming down and telling you, hey, you've got a relatively big payroll and you're winning 25 games. How does this make sense?

Like the trickback of Oklahoma City or the cheat code for Oklahoma City is that they have the all the extra draft capital, that if they have to wind up unloading other players. I think Houston still have some, has some draft capital there. They didn't give up everything for Kevin Durant. They still have some. That's why you'll be, they'll forever be mentioned in the next superstar sort of, yon, sense of the Kumpo. Like, anytime somebody's name comes up, like Houston will be involved in it. But to me, like, even just the basketball, like, when you get Kevin Durant, even if it's a two-year extension, the clock is up now. Like, you have to start winning like yesterday. Like whenever you, any look at any team that's acquired Kevin Durant over the past six years,

it's been under the guise of we have to win a championship now. The Brooklyn Nets, the Golden State Warriors, the Phoenix Suns, now the Houston Rockets have taken that on. And he's older. Granted, he's taking that haircut, but that's still under, like you said, you got a man, Thompson to pay. Like, you've paid Javari Smith, Jr. And a lot of people were a little bit surprised at the number. I was okay with the number, but I also understand why Tom's.

Tarri Yason is probably looking at his teammates saying, can I get that type of love too? Like that's the problem that when you have guys up on the same type of deal at the same time, guys start comparing themselves in their own locker rooms. Well, it's like NIL. You know, it's like, you know, who gets what NIL money in college? You know, we've seen some colleges basically, I remember listening to a football coach at Maryland saying, like,

why this team didn't play well is because everyone found out how much they were making. You know, like they found out how much the. NIL money with each, each was getting here. I would say this about the apron. I think, A, it's made teams nervous. And it's more about, it's interesting, like, teams are nervous, Brian and Vinnie, because what happened with Dallas last year. Like, there was a point in March where Dallas was on the verge of potentially

forfeiting a game because they ran out of bodies because they were so, they were only like 50 grand below the eighth, second, or first apron, and they couldn't sign a player. that's the concern when you look at some of these teams that are either whether you're in New York at, I don't even know, 150,000 below the second apron or Golden State or the Lakers and Clippers in Houston here. Like Houston, Fred Van Vleek gets hurt and they can't go out with sign a player because they're $1.2 million below the first apron here. So it's made teams, it used to be all about, well, we'll just pay the tax. right we'll just pay a luxury tax that that used to be the bugaboo it's really made teams think hard as far as how they assemble the rosters then it was

paid a multiplier and teams were paying the multiplier too easy too easy so now it's so restrictive exactly basically what happened was they kept trying to make the tax more and more penal and it wasn't slowing down it was slowing down a little bit but it was not slowing down the spending there was still this huge you know you know you know spread of the biggest spenders. And so they're basically like, okay, we can't, you know, charge you enough money. We're just going to take stuff away from you. We're going to take away your ability to even add to your team. And that's what's gotten these teams scared. They're scared of getting trapped, unless they're not like the sons. But even the sons have dug it out of it a little

bit. But, you know, and so that's, that's what we're dealing with. And it's showing itself all over the place and it just showed itself in this negotiation, although a lot of nine-figure deals were given out and these guys are all, like, you know, I, there's, sometimes agents are a little bit frustrated that they couldn't, that they didn't get more. And I'm like, you just negotiated a nine-figure deal. Your young client is now generationally wealthy and they have an opportunity to play for a long time and earn a lot more money. Let's, let's keep it in perspective. So they don't care. Um, All right. So, Vinnie, I want to ask you about, so you're going to go to the Knicks game. Yes.

So the thing that the reason that the Knicks and the Cavs are deemed the favorites is largely because of health. Because it was Milwaukee that had Lillard and Jason Tatum in Boston and obviously Tyrese Halliburton in Indy. But they are not, neither of these teams are starting off great. And the Knicks have had in terms of health. The calves are missing two guys who had surgery, Darius Garland, Max Trues. But some weird stuff going on with the Knicks. So the first game of the preseason, I was at in Abu Dhabi. Josh Hart tweaked his back.

He tweaked his back so badly that he was in so much pain that he heaved the ball into the stands and got ejected. and the Knicks were like, oh, no, no, he's not out of the game because of the back injury. He's out of the game because he got ejected. Well, he's barely been seen since. He is not practiced, and we know how important he is. And then there's this weird situation with Mitchell Robinson. So Mike Brown is on the record repeatedly over the last week that even though Mitchell Robinson is missing games and missing practices, that he is not injured and that this is going to. to be a maintenance situation.

He's just having maintenance. But he's going to maintenance his way all the way to miss the opener. Like, I don't know if they put out the injury report yet. But Sean's reported both are out for the Wednesday game. Okay. By the way, Bobby, like, is that, are we already working on? We're already at load management game one? Well, I can't prove that it's not load management, but I'm highly skeptical that it's

load management because you don't miss a week in October for load management. I'm sorry, but Mike Brown keeps saying it. And I think we should just point out that Mrs. Mitchell Robinson's contract year. So everybody's

incentivized to to keep certain information to themselves. But Vinnie... I'm alarmed. I'm alarmed. I'm whole, I'm completely alarmed. For one, there's this thing called Tibbs Miles. You ever heard of tips miles? Like, you know,

highway miles and city miles. There's Tibbs Miles. Jimmy Butler got him. Derek Rose got him. Lu Alden really had him. You know what I mean? Like, Lou Aldeig had a spinal tap. That almost kidding. You know what I mean? Like these things are Todd Gibson. You know, thanks goodness, he's still like standing and, you know, actually like was playing last year. Like we talk Josh Hart left the league in minutes last year, guys. Like, there was games that he didn't come out of. And he already hit the surgical procedure on his finger. And that's going to bother him all season.

He's just been messing around with that, messing around with that. And secondarily, guys, have you ever meant somebody who used to have a bad back? Because I haven't. You meet somebody with a bad back? They got a bad back for life. That's not something that you just, that magically gets better as times. goes on. Like, you may have a strain or something like that and that you play through it or you rest or whatever. I'm not sure if that's what this is. This feels like cumulative injuries. This

feels like, man, this guy has played a lot of hard minutes and he's the healthiest of the two players because Mitchell Robinson, let's count the games he played 17 last year, 31 a year before, 59. That's, if my math is correct and I'm not good at math, smoky, all right? But I think, I'm I think that's around like less than 100 games in three years. And you're asking him to be your starting opening night center. Well, not anymore. Your starting center for the entire season in this newfangled Knicks lineup, new offense, new coach, high expectations that they have not had since, let's see, November of 1993.

Was that right? Is that the number? Wow. It's incredible. I mean, well, the Knicks could probably say, well, that's why we're holding them out because we know he's had these injuries. But something doesn't smell right with that. Did I miss anything, Wendy? No, I will say, I don't know what to make of Carl Towns's comments.

I went, I saw the quotes, and then I specifically went and looked at the video. Carl Towns was asked, sort of a benign question on Monday, about the Knicks' new offense, which is going to be more high-tempo, more passing, less Jalen Brunson dribbling. And by the way, when you talk about a pace offense, it's not just getting the rebound and then running real fast to the other side. It also is within the half-court offense, you move faster. That's part of what Mike Brown wants. Number one, he had success with that when he got to Sacramento.

Number two, I think they want to make them a little less predictable and a little less reliant on Jalen Brunson. If you take at face value that they want to load manage Mitchell Robinson from October 22nd, you can take at face value that they want to load manage Jalen Brunson, who was clutch player of the year last year because repeatedly game after game after game, he put him on his back and carried him. And so they're looking to load manage that stress level as well, not just the minute level, but the stress level.

Okay, so Carl Towns got asked about it, and he just said, to be honest with you, I don't know where I fit in the new offense. And look, I just wanted to make sure that it wasn't just a throwaway line because a lot of times, body language and the nature of the question and stuff, but then I went and washed it,

and I just kind of like scratched my chin and was like, I don't know what to make of that. But it wasn't like a horrible, one thing I won't make of it is an endorsement of how everything's going with that. So I see everybody excited about the Knicks, and I agree with you. I do think that there's good vibes in general,

but are people, hold on, hold on with you, are people excited about the Knicks? Stephen A is out there saying they're winning the whole, I think people are excited. It's almost by the fall, right?

It's almost by the fall on what is left of the Eastern Conference. I think that, that, like if I was Cleveland, I'm excited because, listen, I know what I've done during the regular season, but there's also that question like, hey, can we win a playoff series in the second round and beyond? I think that if Boston and Indiana and some of these other teams were healthy,

they'd be like, whoa, like, I don't know where the New York fits in the Eastern Conference pecking order. It's almost like kind of like a default based on where everyone else, everyone else is. I was going to say, Wendy, the litmus test is if you put the Knicks in the West, how high would you have them? That's a great one. They're fight. They're, you know, they could be a top 16. They're fighting for it, though.

Possibly. And that's the thing. You're possibly fighting for a top six seed in the West. While in the East, everybody's saying we're going to be somewhere in June. Now, Stephen A. is a NBA Cowboys fan, essentially. Like the Knicks and the Cowboys are essentially the same. So you can't take anything he says emotionally with face value. But that's why, Wendy, I think in the East, if you are one of these teams,

If you are Atlanta, if you are Detroit, if you are Miami, if you are Orlando, if you get off to a good start, and you can sense that there's some type of opportunity somewhere, the Cleveland Cavaliers in New York Knicks are not going to make you afraid to make a big personnel move if there is a move to make. Well, along those lines, let me point out, is it possible that the team, that the contender with the healthiest roster for the start of the season could end up being... Don't say it. Oh, boy. Here it comes. So, like, look, Joel and B. will warm up and maybe he'll play Wednesday in Boston, okay? Paul George is not playing in the opener, but he's going full speed of practice. He's soon coming back.

Bond temps was telling us the other day, the vibes are so much better. There's no way you can count on anything. They do, Jared McCain is, obviously, he's still out with the thumb. But I don't know. Like, you're talking about not being intimidated. Like, if you're Philly, I know that you have to live, like, day to day. Like, you can't be thinking. You almost, like, don't have the burden of worrying about the playoffs because who knows

who's going to be standing by Thanksgiving. But, like, Philly to me has kind of been off the board. Like I don't It's not that I don't respect them I just don't regard them Because I can't trust them But here they are Like why not

Why not them? Like I think the calves Are still going to be very very formidable And the calves have had great success Against Philly the last few years But you know Like if you're Philly You're not seeing a team that's insurmountable

Even if the Cavs win 60 games again You don't fear them You will have to be beaten by them To fear them. I don't care if they win 70 games You're not going to fear them probably So Philly Boston is a game that all of a sudden I want to see. I'm actually kind of more interested in that game than almost anything else on Wednesday night.

I think Philly is day to day for the rest of the year. And listen, it's the same. We applauded them a year ago when they went, this is in the summer of last year, what they went out and did, they were the sweethearts of the offseason, they were the big winners. and then I remember going on Sports Center during the early part of year and the early part of year and be like the Eastern Conference will keep them in it. Keep them in it. And then I finally just said, I just wave the white flag.

I'd be like, that's enough. It's over. Like it's over. I think what excites them and you saw them, Brian, when you were on the trip, when the New York Vijay Edgecombe excites them. Yes. Tyrese maxi excites them. The thought of a healthy Joel Embed who's ranked 56th in the top 100 of ESPN, I think, and who took tongue in cheek, he actually said, I think he put himself outside the top 100.

I think there was another, one of our competitors, I think did have him outside the top 100. I think he was focused on that. And the ability of getting Paul George back, what Paul George, do they get? I think that excites them. And then, as we said, in the Eastern Conference, that they're like, they're the team, nobody. when you don't have expectations, like it's a beautiful thing. Like nobody is talking about them. However, like you always have to put the asterisk on them as far as where they are.

They could wake up, they could be 10 and 3 to start the season and they wake up in mid-November and Joel and B's knee might be swung. So I hope that's not the case, but they do have the potential to be one of these teams we're talking about in the Eastern Conference up there with some of these. you know, the New York and Cleveland or maybe Detroit and Atlanta and Orlando and Miami, maybe Milwaukee to say. I don't know, Wendy. I'm sorry. I just. I don't blame you, man. I'm not really making a case for it. I'm just, I'm noticing it. Like, you know. It feels like you're making the case counselor. That's what it feels like. If that's what it feels like I want to take a step back. I'm not making a case. I'm just saying, I do think the Cavs, the Cavs last year were a winning machine. They're not going to be as strong because of the injuries, but they were a winning machine,

and I expect them to win a ton of games. I do not expect Philly to get near Cleveland, you know, but I, if you, but you were saying that is somebody going to fear making a transaction? Like, you know, they should be on that list. I'll also say, um, it looks. It looks at, um, it looks. looks like some good news for Orlando because that was another team, you know, that was also having some early seasons because early season issues because Jalen Suggs was still not back from his knee surgery. It looks like he may be getting closer, but he won't be ready for opening night. But I don't know, Vinny. How many times are you going down 995 this year? Probably too many of the count, to be perfectly honest, more than I'd like to. Or on the Amtrak,

rather reading a good book or something. But here's the thing with Philly. Bobby said it's a good thing when you don't have to play with expectations. The first time they get a sniff of expectations, everything changes there, right? Joel Embed starts playing. Maybe he plays five out of eight games

and everybody said maybe we can get a 50-game season out of Joel and Bid. Like, think about how that sounds. The fact that a 50-game season out of Joel and Bid feels like the top of the top. Think about the fact that Paul George went through one of the most debilitating injuries we've ever seen over a decade ago. To some degree, it's a medical marvel, medical miracle. He's still playing.

But with that said, how much can you reasonably expect from someone to be maybe your second best player, maybe your third best player? But most certainly, your most important swingman defender at that age in the injuries that he's had. Now, if you're selling me on Tyrese, pushing the pace, VJ Edgecom, those two guys playing a completely different style and that catching people off guard, Wendy, I'm here for it. But if you're telling me about Joel Embed and his health

being a wild card, I think we know what his health is. The wild card is if he's healthy. The wild card is not the health. The wild card is if he exceeds expectations, and I don't know if I can believe in that. I can't pick apart anything you just said, but I also know that when he's right, it's a hell of a haymaker.

But I'm just sort of acknowledging that it's happening more than I'm vouching for it. So, all right. We will thank you very much to Bobby and to Vinny. We'll be right back with Jared Allen. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. All right. Now joined by Cleveland Cavalier Center, Jared Allen, who's joining us from New York, where the calves are going to be playing the Knicks and their

season opener on Wednesday night at the garden. Jared, how are you doing? Good. Appreciate you having me. I'm good. How are you? How many years is this now? Six, seven? Nine. God. I've been here nine years now. Man, time flies. So I know, I know your style. So your fans all know this. So I hope I don't mean to like, you know, patronize them. But you start the season off with the haircut. And then as the season goes on, do you, I, do, I, I feel like you have, like, at the All-Star break, have you trimmed it up? I feel like that's happened in the past. Yeah, it's a lot to take care of, a big frow like that.

So maybe keep it lower this season, maybe not. Oh, I see. Yeah, you're nine. We get it. We know what you can do. We know what you can do. Right. So obviously, you guys had an amazing season last year, and you didn't get as far as you wanted.

When you guys got together for the pre-season, you guys got together in L.A., I think, Evan Mowbrose. and maybe Donovan, I don't know, put it together. But what was the mood like for the team when you guys got together? First, it was just like a reunion thing. Everybody gets together. Everybody's happy to see each other again. And we're just getting the catch up about everybody's summer.

But at the same time, there's, you know, a little chip on our shoulder and a goal in mind to try to get better. It's kind of hard to get better from 64 wins, right? Like that's a challenge. It's one of the things you guys have talked about. It's like, well, okay, we didn't win the championship. All right, we're like 20 on other teams. We didn't win the championship. But we're not going to, like, throw everything out.

We did pretty well last year. So, like, I know I felt that sentiment watching some of the stuff that you guys have said in the preseason. Right. I mean, like you said, there's 29 other teams in this league and there's so many other teams that possibly could have won the championship. It just wasn't our year last year. Which, you know, we have pieces back. We have a nucleus of this team. team that we know that can win a lot of high-level games, and that's what we plan on doing

this year. Yeah, so you took an interesting, you took a step back a little bit in your, sort of with the ball in your hand last year, so that you could afford, you know, Evan really to have more opportunities. And, like, I also know last year, you and Darius Garland were, like, connected at the hip. You guys always played together, and that afforded Donovan the opportunity to play with Evan and you know those guys made all NBA it was it was really good but you know that was a you you sacrificed a little bit so now darius is out to start the season um how does your role look

different with that having changed right uh it changes a little bit i have to step a little up a little bit more maybe not handle the ball more but maybe have some sets play through me play with donovan a little more just being able to do anything that I can do to help the team win. Like you said, that's what I did last year. I was able to, or I had to take a step back so that Evan can shine. And it turned out excellent for him and the team. And honestly, I see myself as a utility guy. Just wherever you need me, I'm there.

Yeah, I mean, you've been an all-star in the league, you know, well-respected, but that is something that's a challenge to do. I mean, you know, in Cleveland, they call you guys the core four, and you're a founding member of the core four. But, you know, it reminds me as stuff that I saw with championship teams I covered in the past, like with Chris Bosch, you know, he was still an All-Star, but he had to really change his game. Like, this is sometimes what has to happen on higher-level teams. You know, there are guys who have to play that utility role.

You know, for the court for it to be successful, we all have to take on different roles. My role might not be, you know, the front-running role, and I'm completely fine with that. at the end of the day, it's about winning. You know, and I take that to heart. If I can set a screen that helps somebody win, it's definitely not the flashiest play, but I know we're going to get the W at the end of the night. So you have a new teammate, Lanzo Ball,

who this was a big move that the Cavs made in the offseason. What has the experience been playing alongside him so far in the preseason? It's been good. Another 2017 draft class, another year-nine guy. You know, we're all getting old over here. But it's been good. Grew up playing against them, basically. Now we're on the same team.

He's a guy that, I like to say, takes calculated risk. He's going to play fast. He's going to throw the ball down the court after a bucket. He's going to make sure that he keeps the pace up and he tries to keep everybody moving. Yeah, I mean, it feels like, look, you guys have a lot going for you. But one of the things that you and Evan have to do is you have to protect your guards a little bit defensively. I mean, that's the structure of the team. Those guys protect you guys offensively with some of the stuff they do.

But, like, one of the reasons to get Lonzo was to help the team out there. Like, you know, there was a choice made by the front office. Like, we need to go get some more defense on the perimeter. Do you think that is going to be something that can help you guys? Absolutely. It's another size at point guard, shooting guard position. You know, you can't teach size. Lonzo 666, 67, being able to be able to.

guard, perimeter players, and being able to bring the guard or bring the ball up to court, that's a luxury in today's league. Well, you guys were one of the first adopters. It's kind of funny to say playing double big was, you know, revolutionary. But like, you know, under, under J.B. Bickerstaff, it was like, okay, we're going to play Jared and Evan Moby together. Right. And people thought it wasn't, I didn't think it would necessarily work because I wasn't sure about

spacing because you're a guy, you've been top three and field goal percent. it's like your whole career, but you're not a three-point shooter, high volume at least. Now you see the league and everybody's playing. Now you've got guys who are who could play five playing three in some spots. Like as a traditional big, although you're a lot more active than the bigs were 15, 20 years ago, you know, you have to feel a certain way about the league leaning into what you do. It's one of those things. We all know how this league is.

It's a copycat league. And finally, we're the team that's been copied. A lot of people didn't see it working at first. A lot of people had questions. I was one. I don't blame me. I'm sure even the Cavs had questions about if it's going to work. But when you have a guy like Evan, guards like DG and Donovan, being able to help lead the team, help bring us to where it is, things like that are going to work out.

Like you said, we're able to have their back on the defense event. Evan, D-P-O-Y, and they're able to have our back on the other end with our two guards being all-stars. So you played with Kenny Atkinson early in your career when he was a head coach in Brooklyn, and now this is your second year with him. And I know that he has tried to bring some new age coaching techniques. I don't know if you feel that. It's a technique called CLA.

I don't really want to get into it right now. I don't know. Do you feel like that's all just like good stuff in stories or do you feel like the way that Kenny coaches now, he's obviously, you know, had a great year last year. Do you feel a real difference in the way he coaches now when he did back then? Yeah, 1,000%. I like to say he's more of like a progressive coach. He's always looking for something new, something that he can change so that we can get better. And the whole CLA thing, like I'm like a lot of. at first it's like, man, why am I using three different size basketballs to shoot a free throw?

You know, I don't, this doesn't really work. And then you go to the game and suddenly you're shooting 80% or like the stuff actually works. You just have to actually buy into it. Okay, so that's that you bring that. Okay, so it's called constraint sled approach, CLA. And it's like, it encourages like what you just said, which is like being adaptable. And, you know, instead of doing like the same. drills, every practice is the same drills,

and encourages every practice to be different. Like, did, and I know that Alex Serama, who was, who was one of the Cavs' assistants last couple years, he just got hired as the Portland, I don't know if they've announced it yet, but it got leaked on LinkedIn. It was a weird thing. He's got hired as a Portland fire coach,

the WIPA. Did you know that story? Yeah, I knew, but on LinkedIn it got. It was something like that. Somebody's LinkedIn got, I don't think it was his. Yeah, but like, something happened on some, social networking site, and that's how it was found out that he became the coach.

He wrote a book about it. Did they like come to you and say like, hey, we're doing this thing, CLA? Or did they just do things differently? And you're like, oh, this is a weird thing. Just started off differently. We had a practice in Vegas where he was helping me out. And it was like, okay, he threw the ball off the backward. Okay, swish it. Now, make it off the backboard. Now do this, now do that. I'm like, I'm just trying to warm up. Let me get my five regular hook shots and go on to the next thing. But he just has this vision in mind of how the progress, the development of basketball players, which is incredible.

Right. So the idea is to keep you on your toes, and that helps you become more on your toes during a game. Right. That's kind of the concept. Yeah, that's the basis. Well, whatever you guys did, you guys won 64 games. Something worked out. All right. So this game against the Knicks tomorrow, look, it's one out of 82. I'm in my 23rd year, Jared. Like, I'm not going to go all crazy about it.

But they put this game together because they think that you guys, you know, you guys in the Knicks are going to be strong contenders. Obviously, there's unfortunate injuries elsewhere. Not like you guys are super healthy. You guys are missing two starters who had surgery. But looking at the lay of the land, you guys do have an opportunity. the conference is set up differently. There's less proven depth.

There could end up still being four or five really good teams, but there's less proven teams that are healthy at the top. Do you see this as a real opportunity? I'm sure the Knicks do, whether they want to say it or not. It is. And like you said, whether they want to say it or not, it is. We're going to be two of the top teams in the East. Hopefully, we don't know how the season's going to go,

but we're projected to be some of the best teams. and you want to see what you have at the beginning of the season. You know, people say it's early in the season, but every team uses the beginning of the season as a base mark, you know, to see where you are, see what you have to work on. So I think it's going to be a good battle to try to get position. I agree.

All right, before you go, congratulations. You got married this summer. Thank you, thank you. Viral dancing of high school musical. I'm sure you got to ask about it a lot. Yeah. What is the story? I'm sorry you have to tell it again.

It's annoying when media asked the same questions. I'm sorry. Oh, you're good. Just because I don't know it. I don't know why high school musical. There was a dance that you and your wife did, also with your wedding party. Yes. So what's that about?

Where did that come from? So first off, we actually met in high school. You know, we've been together for a long time. And she's super in the theater. She's super in all the dances, all the choreography. So she comes up with this great idea, like, let's do a dance, you know, let's get the wedding party. Let's do all this. I'm like, I'm a little shaky at first.

That's not my thing. But, I mean, we choreographed it. We're staying up to like 2 a.m. telling the bridal party where to be. Oh, wait a minute. So you were calling, was, okay, did you do a CLA approach to the bridal party? You were like, okay, tap dance. We had a video set up.

had everything the sent to me. And it works. Our hashtag was, we're all in this together. And the song is basically we're all in this together. So. Okay, from high school musical. I got it. Now you may so by the way, you did great. You did great.

Now, as for the wedding party, specifically your team made Dean Wade. Oh, yeah, yeah. It looked like it was still 2 a.m. He was, and look, I'm not saying I could do better. I am not saying I could do better. But like, we were asking a lot from the wedding party with it. He went through the motions. he was trying. I don't know how you scored his, because I think he went a little bit more viral

than you did, which you had really good dance moves. So the idea was to put him in the back, but from the angle of the video, he was in the front. So at that point, there's nothing we could do. Right, right. All right. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for your time. Have a great season. Have a healthy season. Most importantly. Appreciate it. 82 games last year. Are you going for 82 this year? Did you make your point? I'm going to try. Okay. But you know how this league is with taking care of your bodies.

I do. All right. Listen to your trainers. And thanks to Sam from the Cavs staff for putting this together. And we'll see you down the line, Jared. All right. Appreciate it, Brian. Okay.

Thank you very much to Jared Allen for stopping by. Thank you very much to Vinny Goodwill and Bobby Marks and our producer, Jackson, Ogello. We'll be talking to you later this week when we've got a whole bunch of NBA games that we've had a chance to take it.