Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Did Miami Solve Their Biggest Problem? Mavs Building Around Flagg & Questions For Wolves

Episode Date: August 25, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim MacMahon to break down the Klay Thompson buyout in Dallas and subsequent signing in Miami including if Miami has solved their biggest problem and where they fit into the Eastern Conference. Then, the guys discuss what this means for the future in Dallas with Cooper Flagg as the Mavs try to build around a young star. Finally, after an ownership change in Minnesota we discuss why this season is so critically important to the future of the Wolves and their superstar Anthony Edwards. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hello, welcome to the HOOP collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Monday morning. I guess it's still morning, we're almost afternoon. As we've moved through the off season, joining me from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon. Howdy, partners? No longer joining us from Dallas, Texas is Clay Thompson, McMahon. He is out. Yeah, bought a house here with Meg the Stallion last year, and the relationship.

I don't know who's got the house, but Clay, is back to a place where he can, you know, I don't know, can you, I think he can take the boat to work in Miami. Can you know? Listen, man, like, this is, this was an all-time record, uh, early podcast for storytime presented by SoFi, get your money right. This is really not my story. It's Tracy McGrady's story that he told me about when the heat tried to sign him for, um, uh, you know, remember the year that the, that Grant Hill and Tim Duncan were free agents and there was that crazy year. The Magic ended up getting Tracy

McGrady and Grand Hill. Well, Pat Riley was trying to make that deal happen. And so when McGrady went on his recruiting visit to Miami, he took him over to Alonzo Morning's house. Alonzo Morning had a house on the bay. I don't think it was on the ocean. I think it was on the bay or the intercoastal, whatever you call it there. I think I think, I think, further up north is called the Intercoastal, but it's Biscayne Bay down in Miami. And so they hung out at Morning Salas and Riley. The way the story I think goes, if I don't have it 100% right, feel free to correct. Listen, you've never got it 100% right on these stories, but that's part of the fun.

I know. So I think Riley, like, went away, like dropped him off and they were hung out and they were talking about playing for the heat. You know, morning has always been a closer for the heat. Even when he left and came back, he was the guy that they brought to the LeBron. meeting in Cleveland where he like got you know the story goes he you know got into tears talking about what the Miami heat had meant to him in his career he was retired by then but so morning was sort of like their closer with contracts so apparently when it was you know McGrady thought

that was over but they weren't going out the front they went out the back and there was this speedboat there and the speedboat pulls out and goes it's flying down Biscayne Bay, past American Airlines Arena, as it was known there, like past all the Star Island and all the Miami mansions on there. Like, you know, glory, I'm sure it was a glorious Miami Day in July and all the way down to Riley's house, which he sold years ago, but it was an incredible estate that he called Casa Riley. It was like this, you know, amazing, you know, Bayfront Estate. He lives, I think, in an apartment complex now.

I mean like the penthouse. But, and so Riley was waiting for him. Like, there's your tour of Miami, buddy. And, you know, had the contract offer. And T. Mech picked the magic because he was from the Orlando area. But yes, you definitely, Clay definitely would have the option. There's a, there's a dot, you know, like a little, I'm making fun of my lack of nautical knowledge, a port. Like, the port's the wrong word.

But there's a, there's a, you know, a hookup. You can pull right next to Casaya Center. Oh, Captain Clay, baby. He's back. Yeah, he can go right. I mean, it's not even like ceremonial. Like, I remember, so, like, one of the big days in Miami every year is the marathon day. And it would be on a Sunday.

And, like, when LeBron was playing there, like, they would always, it was like a Sunday, like in February. And there was ABC afternoon games. So, like, I remember one time the way for the television crew, the television crew stayed a hotel on Key Biscayne. I'm sorry, Brickle Key, which the hotel has now been imploded. That's a different story, but you can look it up. They'd stay on that hotel, and the traffic was so bad in downtown Miami to get to the arena

that they thought there. There was no way you can get there by car for this noon tip-off or 12-30 tip-off. I think it was against the Bulls, if I remember correctly. And so Derek Rose and the Bulls, that was like a big rival. game back then. And so the way that like Mike Breen and Doris Burke and Jeff Van Gundy and Mark Jackson got to the arena, they sent a boat to pick them up the hotel. You know, it had to happen, McMahon. Like that's why they couldn't get down Biscayne Boulevard. It was locked up. Are you, are you, have you returned to a boat since the Great Spill? I did. I did.

Okay. So the ribs survived, stayed on your feet. This is not a setup. You didn't know this. I am currently nursing. Oh, no. A wound on my knee. It's gotten better. From a boat? My wife was very, so look, like three, four years ago, I fell on a boat in the Bahamas and cracked a rib. I still am appreciative, by the way, to the Lakers medical staff who gave me an x-ray, like a couple of days later because I was in a lot of pain. So it was when we were just recently in Italy and we were going on a boat.

my wife was petrified because McMahon, not only was it, on that particular occasion, I was literally on the dock getting onto the boat and I slipped and fell into a pole like a mad, the mast or whatever. In this case, and that was pretty, I was embarrassing enough, but in this case, to get to the boat we were taking, you know, and by the way, I have gone on numerous boats since then. It wasn't like, you know, but. Don't feel self-conscious. This boat, you had to take a boat to get to the boat. Okay. So there was multiple different. So you were on it, you were going on a yacht. No, it wasn't a yacht.

It was a nice little boat. Anyway, that boat was too big to pull up to the dock that we were leaving in Italy. And so I had to get a boat. There was so many different transfers from the dock to the launch to the main boat. And I navigated all that just fine. But when I went swimming on the boat, McMahon, as I was getting back up onto the boat, I slipped and suffered a knee injury, which was quite bloody. Oh, Lordy. So, yeah.

That's okay. It's still getting better. It's like three weeks removed. I almost chop my big left toe off, putting a pool lounge chair together. Dropped it on my toe, and it was squirting blood. So that was a wild back. Anyway, Clay, I'm sure, has no such problems getting on and off his boat. Oh, no. Clay, Clay, smooth as can be.

Would the same boat go? Did the same boat go from San Francisco to Texas, or did he have a different boat in Dallas on the lake? I don't think he ever brought a boat to the lakes down here. I think he made a rented boat. I'm almost certain his boat, I think he took it down to L.A. Okay. Because remember, there was the game where they played the lake. Lakers is the front end of a back to back. And then he was ruled out the next morning. And then sometime in the afternoon, he went from out to end.

Like he was out on the official injury report. And then they changed. It was like, I forgot what it was, like a rest or whatever. And then what happened was he went out on the water, jumped in the water. He was with his co-captain at the time, May. He can, you know, jump to walk. I'm not on, like, we may be way out of line. We may be way behind.

This all may have been taken care of on, you know, on the internets. But as I recall, his boat was called the SS Stallion. He did. I mean, I don't know what happened to the SS Stallion. This is when he went out and took a ride on the stallion, got wet, decided he was ready to go and came out and had 23 points. Actually, one of his best games in a Mavericks uniform that next night. But look, man. To get back to the basketball side of things,

like, please, let's do. Clearly, things did not go Clay's way in Dallas. He signed up for one situation and ended up very soon in a completely different one. He signed up to get spoon-fed wide open threes by arguably the best creator in the league. And then they went and traded Luca Dodgich, right? And so, like, if Clay would have known they were going to trade Luca midway through his first season of a three-year deal, he would have gone elsewhere. If they didn't know they were going to trade, he was going to trade Luca to the Lakers, he would have signed with the Lakers who offered him more money.

Well, I don't remember what the Lakers offered him. But if you remember, I think the Warriors offered him two years and 48 million, so 24 a year. That was as an extension, if I recall correctly. Correct. Yes. I mean, I don't, you know, maybe not at the very end, but he had that option. He turned that down. And then the Mavericks signed him for three of 50. Yeah, three for like 51. And look, this deal with the, with the heat is, it works out to two for about 11 and a half. Let's go over the money in a second. But, I mean, just to finish your thought about how this didn't work out the way the Mavericks or Clay thoughts. Again, he was coming in to hopefully be the final piece on a team that was arguably, or he felt, they felt, a shooter away from being able to give the Celtics a real series in the finals.

And then the most inexplicable trade in NBA history changed everything. Yeah, he shot 39% the last two years in Dallas. Yeah. And, you know, he's just, at this point in his career, he's a shooting specialist. He used to be an amazing, like, Hall of Fame two-way wing. He used to be one of the best wing defenders in a league, as well as one of the best shooters in NBA history. And a guy who could do a little bit off the dribble and, you know, whatever.

He can't do anything off the dribble anymore. You know, he's, you've got to protect him defensively now instead of being a guy who you can put on the other team's best perimeter score. but the heat are as desperate for shooting as in his can or is for attention. Oh, no. And so like Clay on a, you know, low-cost, relatively low-cost deal does make sense for Miami because he can still catch and shoot. He's still got a quick release.

He's still a guy who you're sure not going to leave them alone out on the wing or in the corner. Yeah. So last year he made the transition to. to being a bench player. That was a, that was a bit of a clunky thing that had to happen. So not only was he not playing with Luca, he was no longer starting,

which needed to happen in his career. It did. And honestly, I thought it might be an issue. He handled it like a total pro. Like Clay, he was a total pro in Dallas. Now, could he get a little moody or whatever, depending on shots you're falling or not? Sure.

He didn't gripe. He didn't bitch. He didn't moan about. coming off the bench. He understood it was a rebuild. He kind of poured himself into trying to be like a good vet for Cooper Flag. Nobody in Dallas can complain about the way Clay conducts himself. That's for sure.

All right. So let's talk a little bit about, so here's the thing. The Mavericks were sitting around with Clay Thompson at 17. What was his number? 17.5 million. They had 16 guaranteed roster, guys on their roster. So at some point, the Mavericks were going to have to offload a player. Yeah, it's actually 15 guaranteed plus the Musa Csese, which isn't a guarantee, but like he needs to be on the roster.

Right. They matched Musa Csays' offer sheet. So at some point, the Mavericks did have to move off of a player. However, I don't think, I mean, they had other options than Clay. And they've obviously talked about trades with other guys, but. None of that stuff is materialized. Well, one of the things, and this is, you know, this I'm sure is annoying to veteran players. But one of the things that when you talk to executives is, you know, when they evaluate contracts, they say, well, on the last year of the deal, that'll least be a big expiring. And, you know, when you look at the Mavericks this year, you know, they have some guys on expiring contracts. like, for example, like Santee Aldama, but they're not, they don't want to trade him.

And, you know, some of the other guys they have, like Marcus Sasser are smaller numbers. There was a, there was a real, you know, interesting, I guess theoretically Zachary Risha Shea is an expiring contract right now, but I'm sure they're going to pick up his option. I can't see them not picking up his option. But they were sitting around, you know, and having a $17 million expiring contract, you know, even if it's a future Hall of Famer and Clayton. Thompson. It's not the worst way to go about your season, your planning. And so there was, you know, while it was clear that Clay was interested in leaving, and it was also clear that that's what the heat were waiting for. The heat were sitting there with multiple open roster spots with guys that they, you know, Demard de Rose was interested in going there. They've got this backup center

Nick Richards, who I think might end up going there. There's these guys sort of waiting around. Their heat were waiting because they wanted clay. And, you know, but it was a question of, you know, would the Mavericks do a deal because there were, you know, in addition to having him on the roster and having a guy who can hit a bunch of threes, which is not nothing, he had certain benefits. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. So McMahon, this was a real negotiation. And we know it was a negotiation because of how much money Clay gave up. Yeah, I mean, I believe Mike Scato was the first report. He gave him $9.8 million.

And look, a typical buyout in the NBA is the guy gives up what he's getting, right? He gave up significantly more than he's getting from my hand. Also, 9.8. I don't know for sure. I can tell you. Go ahead. Go on. Well, the number of 9.8.

So this is according to Bobby Mark's numbers. That gets the Mavericks to where they are. $12.1 million under the tax. Now, why is that number important? They have their non-taxpayer mid-level, which is 12.04. So basically, instead of having Clay's $17.5 million as an expiring, they save a bunch of, they get out of the tax,

and they basically have opened up to where their mid-level exception, their full-man, or I'm sorry, the non-taxpayer mid-level exception can function as a trade exception. Right, because your mid-level exception, just to be clear, for years, it was just something you could use to sign a player or multiple players. You could break it up into pieces. In the current CBA, you can now use it as a trade exception. You can now use that mid-level as to take-in players.

And that was clearly the threshold. Because my point is, 9.8 million isn't just, it's kind of a random number. How much to give up 5 million? How much to give up 7 million? The Mavericks clearly wanted that $9.8 million number. That was because it enables them to have that full mid-level to use.

Right. And for the Mavericks to, you know, to buy them out, they had to benefit from it. It had to help them as they're trying to put together. Right. And it's not just about saving the money. I mean, certainly anybody will take free $10 million savings. But there was specifically something the Mavericks were holding the line on.

And it was to get to that number. Okay, that's number one. And so for Clay also is worth $4.5 million to basically put himself in a position where he felt like he had to. Let's take the full 360 degree view of it. So the heat signed him to a two-year deal worth about $11.5 million. The first year of this deal is $5.6 million, I believe. And so the thing about it is, like if he were going from another team, like, let's say the Lakers to the heat, you could say, well, there's no state income tax in Florida. And, you know, it's actually admitted in this case, it's a straight $4 million give up because there's no state income tax in Texas.

So Clay really wanted to get out of it. And the reason that, you know, the heat did something somewhat interesting. So after they acquired Yas Tanakumpo, they were sitting there with Andrew Wiggins on. a player option. And one of the things that I and a lot of other people thought that they would do is that they would get Wiggins to bypass that player option and negotiate a brand new multi-year contract that took his salary down in the first year of the deal to enable them some more maneuvering. His salary this year is $28 million. So it was like, well, he could opt out of that and they could negotiate downward. The heat did something pretty interesting.

And it just shows you that they're pretty, they're pretty savvy to heat. The front office knows what it's doing. Right. So they, I take that back, because salary this year is $30 million. It was $20 million last year. It's $30 million this year. So the heat told Wiggins, go ahead and pick up that contract option. And he did for $30 million.

And then they gave him a new $2 million. year extension on top of that for $34 million. So what that means is that Wiggins contract is going to fall way down after this year. In fact, let me get the exact number is what it's going to be. 16.15 and 17.32. So his contract goes in half basically year over year. Why would they do that? McMahon? I think it's because if the heat had more room under the apron, then they could get into, they would have to be moved into bidding wars with players. If they only have a certain amount of money, they only have a certain amount of money. Like, listen, you want to come play in Miami? We've only got $5 million to give you. That's what we have.

We're not trying to negotiate. So, and look, it works. Clay Thompson wanted to be in Miami. He liked the idea of playing on that team and the role that they had. And to do it, he was willing to, take a haircut. Listen, Clay wants to get good looks at threes in high volume

on a team that has a chance to contend. That's when he left Golden State, that's exactly what he was looking for. That's why he came to Dallas. And if the team, and if the place isn't in a place where there's nice boating options, that wouldn't be... Even better. And that's obviously the other part of the equation here is, listen,

there are certain franchises that in these kind of situation, that are always going to be attractive. And at the top of that list is that the Lakers in the heat. Well, look, I'm just going to say this, that Andrew Wiggins and Clay Thompson at one point were under contract for like $48 million combined this year. Okay. Now, granted, next year is a player option on Clay.

I have no idea what will happen. But the heat have now got them into a situation where they've got them this year for $35 million. So they've already, they've already maneuvered nicely there. And then next year, Wiggins and Thompson are potentially under contract for $23, $24 million. $22. I am. And so when you've got Yawsatine Kumpo and Bamatabio combining to earn like $110 million next year,

$100, maybe it's even more than that, the way that you, and this is reality for all teams, You've got to find ways on the margins. And this is the heat trying to work on the margins. And they've added two legitimate high volume three-point shooters this summer. Exactly. And by the way. And Hardaway in Thompson. And they got Hardaway for six million.

So look at this. When after the Yonest trade happened, people were saying they've got to get shooting. They've got to get shooting. Well, Clay made 202 threes last year. year. Clay played 69 games last year. He made 202 three-pointers. Tim Hardaway played 80 games last year, made 224 three-pointers. I have no idea how many games are going to play this season. They're both in their 30s. I have no idea how many threes they're going to hit. But these two guys combined hit 227 three-pointers last year, 226 three-pointers last year, and the heat got them for $11 million,

or $12 million combined. That's just good business, you know? And if you're, you're, If you're going to have Bam and Janus, how do you get out of that? And also I'll point out, you know, the Wiggins thing, Wiggins had a very good three-point shooting season last year. Wiggins, let me see here. 41% I believe. That's his career high. He made 138 three-pointers. So between the three of them, and again, this is last year not playing together.

They were playing on three different teams. I'm not saying they're going to get this same amount. But last year, between the three of them, he made 564 threes. So I don't think you can say that the heat have a problem with three-point shooting anymore. Now, it's got to play out. Yeah, and Fontechio is a solid three-point shooter. Davian Mitchell wasn't a high-volume three-point shoot. He shot it well last year.

Mitchell, of those guys, he's the one where I do think that teams will still kind of live with him getting decent shots. He shot 40%, but he only took three a game. So you're probably right. He may 90 for the season. And honestly, you know, and then some of the, like they're young guys

that they hope become big time players for him. Nicole Jovich shot at 27%. That's not great. Well, Yovic has been one of these guys. This is why I could never work in a front office of the end. Because you loved his contract when he signed it? No, not the contract.

I loved him as a player. I watched him as a player. him play in the 2023 World Cup for Serbia and he was awesome. And I loved everything he did. And if I worked for a team, I would have

run back to my GM and said, you've got to get Nikoliyovic. Get him at all costs. And they haven't been able to... They signed him to that contact extension and they haven't been able to play him, basically. You know, he's 23 years old. It's not like, it's time

to put his grave stone up or anything, but... No, of course. It's just... Yeah. And notice they did this Yonis deal, and the Bucks pretty much had their pick of anybody on the roster who wasn't named Bamatabio.

And they ended up, you know, they didn't do that deal. You know, he wasn't in the deal. Yeah, and listen, the Mavericks didn't want to trade clay for him. You know, I like... The contract's not looking good now, but again,

he's 23 years old. But him and Larson are both at this point, not threats from three-point range, but they added a bunch of veteran shooting. Bobby Portis Jr. is a three-point threat for sure. I think the shooting is, you know, again, you're counting on older guys,

stay healthy and all that kind of stuff. And hopefully with some of these guys to not further decline. But the shooting they've addressed, the biggest concern now, I think, on their roster is probably actually playmaking. I agree. I agree. You know, Janus is for a power forward is obviously an elite playmaker, but, you know, Davian Mitchell's not a playmaking. They don't have a lot of playmaking outside of Janus at this point. Let's sort of assess where Miami is on their roster and then we'll do Dallas a little bit too here.

So Miami now with this deal, they have $5 million under the first apron, and they are hard-capped at the the first apron because they traded out, they traded for more money than they sent out in the Yana's deal. So they're, you know, they're hard capped at it. There's a bunch of different things that trigger hardcapping the first apron, and this is one of them. And so they've got two roster spots left and they've got $5 million total. That's all they can spend. And that's one of the reasons why they had to get clay, you know, until they signed clay, they had three roster spots left. Now they have to fill one. You don't, you can leave the 15th open and the heat may end up leaving the 15th open for a while just to see what happens.

They have been attached to Nick Richards, who has, you know, is a third string center. Wouldn't surprise me if he, you know, he'll go there sort of on the minimum. But I do think that they will be looking because, you know, you know, the other guy, sort of the other guard they had, we haven't talked about it than Larson is Drew Smith, who's a point guard, but he's more of a combo guard. And so you're right. I do think that Miami will be on the lookout for, for ball handling. And it may not happen in October.

Like they may just be on the lookout for somebody who springs forward during the year, which is why the 15th roster spot may either be left open or a straight non-guarantee. So. But the other thing I want to just point out, just because we know it'll be a topic of conversation. For example, like there's still players becoming contract extension eligible. I think by next week you'll start to see Steph Curry's name come up because starting on the 29th of August, he's extension eligible for his contract. I have argued that it's possible that, or it should be at least considered, and I'm sure it is being considered,

that Clay not sign, or that Steph not sign his contract extension right now. Of course, if he wants to sign his contract extension right now, he can get two years and I think 140, million. Obviously, if that's what he says he wants, you're going to give it to him. But if he doesn't sign his contract extension right now, the Warriors could have over $100 million in salary cap space next summer because he, Jimmy Butler, and Draymond are all in the last years of their contracts and Chris Hops Porzingis's deal is not fully guaranteed. And it's not that I'm thinking this stuff's going to take a LeBron deal, but you're going to get the contract whenever you want it. Why not leave optionality open?

But anyway, that we will talk about in the coming days. Janus doesn't become contract extension eligible until January 6th. And so he can sign for three years and $214 million if he opts into the player option he's got for next year. And so that's one way to go. If he declines the option and does a whole new deal, which, you know, if that's what he wants to do, the heater, probably not going to fight him on it. It's four years in 275, McMahon. Let me do the math on that.

That's way above my ability. It's almost 70 a year. 69 a year. That's a nice contract. Bobby says that he, if he actually picks up the option and then signs for three more seasons, he can get a hair more money. So he may actually do that. But, um, uh,

whether or not, whether the heat try to get some maneuvering on that, it'll be interesting to see how that goes. But it should just be known that Janus's extension, which the reason he said he was, you know, cool with going to the heat, was that the intent of signing an extension.

And when the heat traded all that stuff to get him, the intent is to sign him to an extension. Just know that it can't happen until January. Yeah, the intent to sign an extension, but also the reason that it was cool with going to heat is because he felt like it was possible to contend there. and, you know, then you get into the conversation of do you max out on what you can make or do you, as we've seen with Brunson,

as we've seen with Wimonyama, work with the franchise where, you know, you leave some kind of flexibility. It'd be interesting. Well, we'll just see how that plays out, but it's months away from now. And I will say this. Like, the heat may not win all their games. some of these moves may backfire whatever. You know, they may have plans that go awry.

They may be counting on guys who don't deliver. I can go on and on. The unknowns of basketball. But one thing I will tell you with certainty McMahon is no one's going to outthink the Miami Heat. The execution might not happen, but it won't be because they're outthought. They've spent the last several years plotting

to get a superstar who would give them a chance to put a contender around them and they pulled that off with Yonis, so they've pulled off the hardest part, and there's work to be, and they'll be an interesting team this year. I don't see them being a bona fide contender. Maybe I'll be wrong.

Maybe they'll surprise me. Obviously, a lot of that, frankly depends on, does Yonis play 62 games? Does he play 75? Like, I don't know. But there's at least hope for the heat of being a relevant team in the playoff picture again. And that hadn't been the case for a handful of years. Right.

Okay. Now, let's take a look at the Mavericks after this has happened. You mentioned that the Mavericks have 12 million of their mid-level exception. They also have 12 million below the luxury tax. It's fascinating how that all lined up with this buy. out. But their roster is full. There's two players I'm looking forward to when you go to Mavericks Media Day that we get updates on. One is obviously Kyrie, who's, boy, he's going to be 18, 19 months off of his torn ACL at the start of training camp. Yeah, March 24. And, you know, look, this is one

of those deals where if the Mavericks were a competitive team last year, I think Kyrie probably would have come back late in the season. They weren't, so it made no sense for anybody for a Kyrie to come back. But he's been, you know, he's been going Fulgo this summer and he should be ready to, I don't know, I can't sit here and tell you if there will be rust or not, but I think you get a healthy Kyrie Irving. Yeah. The other is Derek Lively, who has had unfortunately a series of foot injuries and was shut down early last season

and has been out nine or ten months coming off of a foot surgery. And look, the Mavericks have a bunch of big men, including Santee Aldama, who they traded for this offseason. But Lively was a significant force in their finals team. And, you know, how he looks, you know, he was a super athlete big man. And, you know, we don't like any biggs with foot problems, but especially a guy whose whole game is predicated on his quickness. So, lively coming.

and leaping ability. Correct. So also seeing where Lively is, maybe not on day one of the season, but what his prognosis is is also relatively important to the Mavs. Yeah, you would love to be able to pencil in 22-year-old Derek Lively

as a long-term piece of the foundation. You've obviously seen his potential, not just potential, you've seen his production and his impact. Unfortunately, like at this point, it's very much a wait and see. You can hope, but you can't bank. on lively as he's going into the final year of his rookie deal.

Yeah, so the thing about Dallas, the question you ask yourself is, are they done? You know, are they done? They obviously have made a couple of significant moves with Missai Ujiri. I mean, define done, done for... Are they done for the off season? Yeah, and I, yeah, probably just because of how late it is, but you can never say never.

and obviously this roster is very much a work in progress. What they did this summer, you know, there was a lot of singles this summer. Well, they extended Najee Marshall as well. They extended Najee Marshall. They traded for Aldama using the, an exception from the AD deal. You know, they traded for resouchet.

I forgot exactly where that exception came from. They traded for Marcus Sasser on another exception. You know, these are all singles, like the resoucher, thing. It's a single that maybe, you know, you're hoping maybe you can leg that thing out and get a double out of it. It's a, it's obviously an upside play for a guy who was a number one pick. Tough to be the number one pick sandwich between Wimben Yama and Flagg, but that, you know, that's what he was. You know, there's a reason the Hots were willing to part with him

for a couple of seasons, but, you know, six foot 10 has some potential there. But this is, like, nothing about the Mavericks is about next season. This is about trying to build long term around a kid who's still 19 years old in Cooper Flagg. Right. So that's why the question isn't so much about whether the Mavericks are done between now and October 1st. It's where will the Mavericks be between now and February 1st, both with. It's a weird roster. Yeah, there's like this Sarasha, there's not a lot of playmaking on. I mean, Kyrie is like really he's more of a, he's a two-guard.

He's obviously an elite ball handler, but he's more of a two-guard than a point guard, but he'll be your point guard. Cooper Flag is kind of a point forward. They'll share a lot of that. And Hajie Marshall can handle some of that. But, you know, not a lot of playmaking outside that. You know, they got this kid coming in, Surge a day, He'll be a rookie. We'll see.

They traded Ryan Nimhard in that resouchet deal, which was really the Lue Dorr deal to the Hawks. And then, honestly, they've got a ton of power forwards. Yeah, they drafted a little lottery pick, big man, Morris Johnson. Yeah, and I wonder, I'm curious to see, is he get more time at center than power forward? You know, we'll see. I think some of that's probably going to depend on live. his health and availability. Daniel Gafford's health and availability.

Here's the thing about the Mavericks. They're kind of dealing with three different situations here. There's like three different sort of wings of, or not wings, because that's the wrong word. There's three different sort of branches. Branches. Because you have the remnants of the team that was in the finals that was being built around Luca. So, you know, that's lively. That's PJ Washington, right?

That's Daniel Gafford. Daniel Gafford. Kyrie. Cairo. Kyrie. Oh, my God, Kyrie. All right. And then you have the fact that they, you know, lightning bolt get Cooper flag.

So you have, you know, now the new mandate, which is now you build around him. And those two things don't really go together all the time. Certain players are going to fit together. But. And then you have the fact that you've now changed over your front office. And now you have Missai Ujiri in there. Completely flipped the front office, completely flipped the coaching staff. Right.

Exactly. Didn't even get into that. You flipped the whole new. coaching staff. It's almost like four whole different branches. So if you're a rival front office, and that's why you've heard Gafford's name and you've heard PJ Washington's name in trades, there's very likely a chance that there's going to be further retrofitting. And so if you're a team out there, you're watching this situation closely. You're watching Kyrie. And even Najee, Najee's extension was a huge.

he's still trade eligible this season. I didn't even know that. Yeah. But I mean, I don't think Nauseu will be traded. I do think that they signed the extension with the intent to keep them, but they left wiggle room with that. That was a pretty fascinating little Friday deal there with Clay Thompson. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

Also, at the end of last week, I don't know if you knew, McMahon, but we have another new owner. How many, like, this is the new thing. the franchise flip. Like the NBA franchisers, they're like little fixer uppers, you know? And this was a bigger profit in terms of valuation than even the Lakers. Okay. So, yes.

So it depends on your definition of the word flip. Because a flip is something where you're like, I'm going to get it, fix it up, and immediately sell it. That was not what Mark Walter was trying to do. I see the people, I see, I've seen people say like, oh, what great business by Mark Walter. He had him for a year and he made two billion profit. No, it was not good business. He was selling because he needed the money, regardless of how that comes out. It's funny, like you think of like Bill Chisholm, who is the controlling owner of the Celtics.

He's like, he's racking up seniority. I'm telling you. He's like, I've been the owner for a whole year and a. a half. Like, Mark Lorry spent more time fighting for the right to be the wolves owner than it is actual wolves owner. Right.

Okay. So here's the thing. So Mark Lorry, who's a friend of the pod, came on our podcast in Las Vegas, sold the team. So, all right, here's the thing about the timber wolves. The timber wolves were sold and then they were sold in pieces. The bankers call it tranches. McMahon.

They were sold in tranches. Okay. We're talking fancy language. between when the wolves were agreed to be sold and when they actually were sold after a battle in arbitration, that wasn't really a court battle because that implies you're in front of a judge. It was a battle of arbitration. But by the time the beginning of it to the end of it, it became an outrageously good deal from Mark Lurie and Alex Rodriguez.

And really the controlling owner was Mark Lurie. Alex Rodriguez was his partner, but it was mostly Lori's money. He also had several big partners in it, like Michael Bloomberg, for example, this guy, Eric Schme, who has made a bunch of money with Google. But by the time, the day that they won that arbitration and were able to get the team, they had some of the best, it was one of the best equity moves in league history. And what I say by equity is when Glenn Taylor agreed to sell the team, he agreed to $1.5 billion. Three plus years later, the team was worth over four.

From the day they saw, the day that they agreed to the deal, he had hundreds of millions of dollars in equity, of his own personal stake, and the team itself had billions of dollars in equity. It was crazy. And, you know, the thing about Glenn Taylor, Glenn Taylor tried to sell the wolves in about 2012, announced that he had an owner to come in, a guy who was a part owner of the Grizzlies. And I think he was going to sell the team back then for about 400 million, give or take. Maybe it was 300 million. And then that deal fell apart. Long story short, that deal fell apart.

And then he said, you know what? I'm not going to sell it. Had that deal gone through, he had to made three or four hundred million dollars and been happy and whatever. But because that deal fell apart, he held him for another decade. And he tripled his money again. And still went out kicking and screaming. Exactly.

And then if he just held it for three more years, he would have tripled his money again. So, so anyway. But also, this is why I'm sorry. I never cry for the. the owner who's got to pay a big tax bill. Like if you can't afford it, sell the team. You'll make a massive profit. Right.

So this is where the nuance comes in. The nuance is that year to year, you don't realize the gains. And year to year, as teams lose money and their owner has to write gigantic checks. And it typically happens in August. The August is when you have to pay your tax bill and stuff. and they can look you square in the eye and say, I'm dying here. I'm losing tens of millions.

That is a true statement. But of course, their holding is gaining a bunch of value. But if they never sell and if they don't sell for 30 years, you know, like if you look at the longest standing owners, the longest standing owner, do you know who it is, by the way, little trivia time. Longest standing owner. That's good.

I don't off top my head. Mickey Erison? Erison, his father, he inherited the team when his father died in 1995. So that's, you know, 31 years. That's a long time.

Rinesdorf? He is second. Rinesdorf got control of the Bulls in 1985. This gentleman and his brother bought the Indiana Pacers in 1983, Herb Simon. There you. Okay.

His brother Mel, has passed away for a long time. Herb is in his 90s. He looks pretty good. We just saw, you know, he was there for all the stuff

in the, in the finals a couple years ago. So, but when you look at it, like, you look at like, Rick Schnoll and Gabe Plotkin who bought the Hornets

back in 2023, there's been like five, six team sales since then. the Lakers have been sold twice. Yes. You know, I mean, even going back to like when... Like the Lakers have been sold twice.

The Celtics have been sold. Like not just teams being sold like flagship franchises. Correct. Correct. So anyway, among the... So Mark Lurie had to raise money to... To finish that purchase for $1.5 billion. and he took on some partners. One of them was Michael Bloomberg.

One of them was Eric Schmidt, as I said. And one of them was this gentleman who's from the Bay Area hedge fund guy, Mark Stod. And Mark is now taking over as controlling owner at a $4.5 billion valuation. Which I don't know exactly, like, I don't know what that means in terms of what kind of money he actually had to give up here. Like how much of a percent did he have to buy? from Lori to become the controlling owner. Right. We don't know yet.

You know, and I don't even 100% know how big Lori's stake was. But Lori didn't make $3 billion, but he absolutely, whatever he, if he had $100 invested, he's getting back, you know, for every $100 invested, he's getting probably back about $350. He made a handsome profit and he still has a sliver of the franchise. And here's the thing. over the last couple of years, the Timberwolves have been losing enormous sums of money.

And let's be honest, if not for the Trailblazers, there'd have been a lot of talk about how cheap the Timberwolves were with some of the chatter around the league. Well, cheap is relative because the wolves have lost a ton of money. They have paid a ton of luxury tax

the last couple of years. And some catering bills, whether they liked it or not. Right. Well, here's the problem that the wolves are in. So the wolves, and this is what I would say to, and I have said to people in Portland,

you have to be careful about doing a limited renovation of an arena, okay? Because certainly there are arenas that have been renovated that are in great condition, that extended their life and everything like that. But the Target Center got a renovation about five years ago, and it went from being a bottom five arena to being a bottom five arena.

I was wondering how much of an upgrade you were going to give them. And, I mean, it's not a dump. Don't get me wrong. But just the bones of it, they don't have the, this is very hoity-toity talk, but they don't have the ability to have the amenities that are common for NBA franchises. Right. And so they lost a lot of money the last couple of years,

paid a ton in tax, and they're not really in position to squeeze more money out of their own owner of their arena because they just had a publicly supported arena renovation a couple of years ago. And so the only way you're getting a totally new arena situation is probably if you pay for it yourself. And that was hard to get that.

And if you remember, the Minnesota Vikings had to basically threaten to, you know, to move the team before they got funding for their stadium. And their stadium is hosted Super Bowls and Final Fours and stuff like that. And so it's a bit of a challenging, it's a challenging economic situation, the wolves. And so I think Lori is flipping out of it. What, what I, all that, you know, all that stuff is, is fine for, you know, you know, forums at a sports business conference.

What does it mean in the near term? Well, what, what it could, the question that you have for Mark Stod is, you know, and I, we don't have the answer to this yet, McMahon. Is he, how willing is he to continue paying the luxury tax? because the wolves were an organization that for decades didn't pay the tax. And they didn't pay the tax for a reason because they're marking. The roster as of now, without a starting power forward on it, which I don't know if they can fix that or not.

But right now they're set to pay $25.5 million in tax this year. What did you have them for the last two years? Do you have that up? I do not. Okay, I'll find out. But they paid tens of millions of dollars the last couple of years. the last couple years in taxes. And from what I understand, lost tens of millions of dollars.

They were totally soaked in red. And look, here's the thing. Aunt Edwards is due a contract extension. He's eligible for an extension next summer. So this is a very important year. Additionally, Tim Connolly, their general manager, who really helped. I mean, Aunt Edwards drove the turnaround of the team.

But Tim Connolly put the pieces in place to have this team have a couple of two or three of its best years of his franchise history. The first big win of the Lurie A Rod Arrow was getting Tim Connolly. Correct. That was a huge thing for them. They paid him very aggressively for it. So here's the thing about Tim Connolly. He is in the last year of his contract. If he wanted to, I'm sure he could sign an extension. He is not signed the extension.

Here's the other thing. When Tim Connolly was brought on board, he was given something called phantom equity. He was basically given a stake in the team, but it didn't, he didn't actually get, he didn't actually get shares of the team. He got the equivalent of shares in the team that if he completed his contract, he would get a giant bonus. That bonus is in the five figures, and it is not 10 million, okay? It's a very, it's a very sizable bonus. And he vests and gets that bonus at the end of this season. So he is highly incentivized to work out this contract. He is not necessarily highly incentivized to sign an extension.

And so there are two people that the wolves have to worry about. keeping Tim Connolly because he's been so important. And then make, and then, you know, that's second to keeping Ann Edwards. And they're a team that has traded away draft capital. And they're really going heavy. They went heavy in on lamello ball. So they need the lamello ball and Edwards partnership to work. They need, you know, their investment in Jade McDaniels and Rudy Gobert to work.

they need Ann Edwards to resign next year. And that was the whole point, that and making room to sign A, it was the whole point of the maneuvering they did this summer. You know, it was, hey, let's keep Aunt happy. Anne wanted to play with Lamella Ball. That's what they went out and got Lamella Ball. So actions over words, Mark Lorry's ops out. So, you know, it's going to be a very high-stakes,

year for the wolves and their future after this year is uncertain and the owner sold. Yeah. And the lamello trade caused the vultures to stop circling over the target center hoping to pounce on ant, but they still know the route. They still know how to get there. Right. So, you know, it's a significant thing, you know, I mean, I think from a business standpoint, nobody could blame Lori for selling. I mean, it's really amazing. The guy was able to buy the controlling share of an NBA franchise at a discount rate on layaway.

And then... Yeah, not just at a discount rate, but a discount rate on layaway. Yeah, and then make three times profit. Not only that, but when he got control of the team, the team had their two best years of their franchise. Yeah, it was great timing. He would probably say, yeah, and I wrote tens of millions in checks, you know, to pay for it all. But, you know, yeah, and so now he's selling it. But like the fact that they have this, these headwinds, is that a politically correct word? Can I say they have headwinds coming?

You can say whatever you want. They have headwinds ahead. Doesn't mean you can't navigate them. But there's headwinds coming. Well, there's headwinds coming and for all the reasons we laid out. And then also the goal is to be on the level with the thunder and the spurs. And that's going to be tough to do. And that's true for the wolves and every other team in the Western Conference. You know, we've talked about the Nuggets, the Lakers. You can go on down the list. Let me address something about that.

So over the last few days, there was a Twitter account, X account, that announced that the wolves are very soon, going to move to the Eastern Conference, and it's going to be great. Edward's not going to have to deal with Victor Wembeyanma. That trickled into my world when, like, producers at ESPN were like, are the wolves going to be at the Eastern Conference in the next eight minutes? You know, because it was a completely irresponsible post. By a guy who nobody's ever seen in person.

So let me just clear this up. If the NBA expands and if the NBA expands for two teams, which both things I would say are probable slash likely, but are not asserted yet. If that happens, there will be a need to move one team. Oh, by the way, if it's also Vegas in Seattle, which actually they've already said it's Vegas and Seattle. So the NBA will need to move one team to the Eastern Conference

if they even remain in a 15 or 16, 16 conference alignment. Like who's to say they're even 100% percent, going to go with conferences on each side. If, if, if. But if that does happen and they go with a 16 team east and a 16 team west, there would be three teams, you know, logically that could want to move east. And they're the three teams that are on the Mississippi River, Minnesota, Memphis, and New Orleans.

Now, if you have a map and you can see Minnesota's proximity. to a bunch of eastern teams like Chicago, Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit, Cleveland, et cetera, et cetera. It does make a lot of sense for it to be Minnesota that would move. But I promise you, Memphis and New Orleans would also be very interested in doing that because of the historic East-First West imbalance. And maybe that could happen. But by the way, we're at least two years away from expansion. So they got to find out whether Ann Edwards is resigning.

So, yes, after all that, there is a pathway that exists for the Timberwolves to potentially be an Eastern Conference team. But there's a lot to happen between now and then and a lot more things to worry about trying to beat Wembeyanama 4 out of 7. So I just want to clear that up because that was out there. And it could end up being correct. Like, you know, three years from now, that individual could say, hey, I told you three years ago it was going to happen. I had the scoop. But like this one was like, Aunt Edward just got it made.

You know, thumbs up. Like, here we go. And by the way, I believe the champion of the league came out of East last year, too. I also have been being told that the Eastern Conference. conference is better than the West this year. Although I've been told that numerous times over the years. Yeah. Yes, nothing is a guarantee. So that's all. No, there's a guarantee. There's a guarantee that there will be some kind of social media activity that really ruffles your feathers every single week. That's true. Probably every single day, although not so much in August. Now, the social media activity today is the head or the starting

quarterback for the Cleveland Browns. Oh, man. That's a hell of a situation you get in your your hometown. Yeah. Either way. Every home game. Either way, they're going to stick. So it does, it's great for, it's great for people in our business, for talk radio, people in our business, because it's a tremendous thing.

But I don't think it's going to affect the final record. So, all right, McMahon, thank you very much for this enlightening conversation about the Mavericks and the heat and the Timberals. Thank you very much, Wendy. Thank you. I hope you do well on golf this week. I'm playing in a couple of, in an hour or so here. I played absolutely dreadfully in Scotland two weeks ago.

It's hard to hear that. I had holes where I lost three balls on one hole. That happened twice. And then I played on Sunday, and I played maybe my best round of the year, and I didn't lose a ball back here in Omaha. How hot is it in Omaha right now? No, it's glorious in the mid-908 in Dallas right now.

You can have it. You can have it. Chill down there. I record performance pre or post injury? Oh, good question, Jackson. The injury was not a, I mean, it was all post injury, but it was not affecting my golf game. It was, I think between the years, it was affecting my golf game. I was a little worried when you used a headwinds reference, considering our nautical mishaps.

Yes, I, what do you want me to say? I mean, you know what? Well, I was about to get ahead of ourselves. least it didn't require a trip to medical, to see medical professionals. It required, you know, neosporin, which is kind of hard to acquire in Europe. And what they gave me didn't quite look like the same product, but, and band-aids. I'm just going to say this. I believe that we're going to see each other during the preseason. Yeah. And there is a nautical excursion. that I'm going to try to talk you guys into. Oh, really? Yes. We can discuss further later.

All right, I'm going to stay tuned for that. All right, thank you to Mark and Miles and Jackson for putting it together. Thank you for listening and watching The Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.