Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Emergency Pod: Kevin Durant Trade Reaction

Episode Date: June 22, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to Kevin Durant getting traded from the Suns to Houston. The guys break down what this return means for the Suns’ future, how this fit could work out for the Rockets and how Houston’s future is now set up moving forward.   Live Show Link: https://hooplive.eventbrite.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hooke collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday, game seven of the NBA finals. Are we talking about game seven of the NBA finals?

We are not because today was the day the sons agreed to trade Kevin Durant. Joining me from here in Oklahoma City, Tim Bonteps. Hello, everybody. Joining me also in Oklahoma City, fresh off of his pickup game, where I'm told he dominated our producer, Jackson Agello, is Van McMahon. Howdy, partner, as usual, Wendy, your reporting is 100% on the money. I was putting the finishing touches on a triple double performance as news breaks, our guy Shams, Kevin Durant, headed to Houston. Every time McMan plays pickup, he says he has a triple double.

If Jackson's willing to put his microphone on, he can confirm. He might have a lot of triple doubles, but a lot of me bounds out there as well. Those count too, baby. Those count two. Those guys who've made a career on rebounding their own offensive misses. Okay. Kevin Durant is traded, according to Shams, to Houston for Jalen Green, Dylan Brooks, the number 10 pick in the draft on Wednesday night, and five, count them five second round picks.

So they got a lot of picks. I don't know how many of them are going to be any good, but they did get a lot of. lottery pick in it. They got their own lottery pick back. That is right. I didn't think about that until the second. I didn't realize that. That is their pick.

So I think it was at least two or so months ago when the season ended and it was pretty clear that the son's primary decision in the offseason was going to be trading Kevin Durant, even beyond their front office and the head coach. And Bon Temps was saying, I don't think they're going to get a great. return for him. And I just want to tell you that, and the reporting is, this trade is less than an hour old. The reporting is still developing on my end. I think this was far in a way the best thing they had. I know that Shams said that Miami was the finalist. I don't think Miami's, I don't, I don't think it was close. I don't think Miami got a quote unquote outbid. I think Miami.

Well, I mean, Miami did get out bid because they didn't get them. Well, this was not a bidding war. These were, like, this was Houston's best offer. They weren't going higher. And the Rockets accomplished their goal of not shortening their runway, but making a win now move. Jalen Green, obviously is the young talent in this deal. Frankly, for ranking the Rockets' young talents, I would probably put him somewhere like the maybe fourth or fifth most valuable.

I think he's lower than that. Maybe even lower. And essentially, let's just be honest, he's the salary filler in this deal. But this is a, I love this trade for Houston because this is a team. They didn't shorten their runway. They kept all their young two-way players. Well, can I stop you right there? Okay.

And maybe when this comes out, we'll have a good feel for whether or not there's going to be a contract extension. to me a big part of what happens from Houston's side about whether they quote unquote won this or not is what they're doing about Katie's contract. I anticipate there will be a contract extension. Okay. Is it two years in the full max? Because that's... I'm not ready to say that. I'm not ready to say that. I anticipate there will be a contract extension. Let's just be honest. That's part of the factoring in that... math, that cap math is part of the reason why the offers were nowhere near the value that

the Sons gave up. Right. So what I'm just going to say is before you can take a full picture of where this is for Houston, I think you need to hear what the extension is. I'm going to assume it's two years at a high number, obviously. I don't know that it would be the full max. But look, man, this is a young, tough, athletic, scrappy Rockets team that just, is fresh off being a two-seed that was desperately in need of a go-to guy.

Kevin Durant, even at this age, is a big-time, big-time score. That's the one thing they needed. Listen, Dylan Brooks, the Rockets were ripped for signing him to that deal. He was a solid sign-in for them. Honestly, he's the kind of guy that Phoenix needs. They need that toughness. They need that defense. But he wasn't going to start with KD there.

Amin Thompson's obviously starting now and for a long, long. Well, not only that, but they needed to, Haiti makes $50 million. Jalen Green makes $33 million. They needed to make the salaries work. They needed $20 more million to go into it. And, but all right, but hold on. Bontems, you said two months ago you didn't think the return would be terrific for Durant because of various reasons. What do you think of this trade and where you thought it would be?

Well, I mean, this isn't a terrific return for Kevin Durant. Like this is exactly what we talked about, right? I would say that it's about as good as the Rock as the Sons could have expected to do in the moment because there just wasn't anything available. I think, you know, I think I would say where things sat by the end of this week, like Friday, I'm not really sure Minnesota was even an option at that point. I do not believe they were. I don't either. The Miami offer, this is this is better than the Miami offer. and it's not this isn't a great offer um like there just wasn't really anything else the

the Miami offer by the way I think the key thing about the Miami offer is it it didn't have Tyler Hero in it it didn't have Kelle Ware in it no the the sons were trying to get a blue chip asset in this trade and there were none available there were not even any like you know whatever the next chip down is red chip assets available right like they couldn't get Jabari Smith Jr. in this deal, certainly like Tar Heeson, absolutely not. Reeder. Deppard, no way. They didn't even get Cam Whitmore in the deal. Like, you know, they got, they got a lottery pick.

They got Jalen Green, who is a guy that I don't think has a ton of value around the league. He, you know, we disagreed. I disagreed with you guys last summer on this contract that the Rockets gave them. It did turn into a piece that we're able to use to get this trade done. but I, you know, maybe Jalen Green will blow up in the future, but now he's on a team with Bradley Beale and Devin Booker. That fit for many reasons doesn't really work. Well, we'll talk about that in a minute.

Just talk about the return. No, I know. So, but that is part of the return, right? Dylan Brooks, they could maybe flip Dylan Brooks again. But look, this is, this is to me, it's really what it is. Like, this trade is fine for Phoenix in the situation Phoenix was in, in terms of they got as much as they could get right now. But the reason I've been saying this is the worst situation in the history of the league for a while

is because of the cavernous hole that the suns are in. And like, yes, this is the beginning of starting to dig out of the hole. But they're still at the bottom of the Grand Canyon. Like they don't have any, they don't have any flexibility going forward still as of now. that could change, but they're still very expensive. They have Bradley Beale with a no trade clause or they have to try to move or do something with. They have to figure out if Jalen Green fits. They have to see him to get something for him.

Maybe he's there. Maybe he's not. But, you know, look, they have six picks now. They have this first round pick. They have these five second round picks. I think they've got two or three firsts and several seconds now. They can trade. My understanding is that they're going to be aggressive this week.

They're going to try to retool the roster. I expect this is not the last move they're going to make. So we'll see where this team looks. Well, this trade itself could expand. This can't be official until July 6. Right. It can't happen until then. So you could have permutations.

You could have Jalen Green and all schools where, et cetera, right? But the sun's... I think it's more likely Devin Books gets rerouted than Jalen Green. Dylan Brooks. You almost have Devin. You almost said Devin books. And I'm like, oh, my God. Sorry.

Hold on. Don't aggregate that. Sorry. Well, look, to me, what the sons were sitting here talking about the thunder in the finals, at least we're all here for the thunder in the finals, right? The trade that's set up everything that's happening right now with Oklahoma City was the Paul George trade to the Clippers. And after the Paul George trade to the Clippers, what did the Thunder do?

They took that trade and it kept making more trades. And after a couple weeks, they made like 15 trades. They had a whole pile full of stuff. And that started off the path back to where. they are now. Now, obviously, they started with a bazillion more things to trade out of that trade than the sons are getting out of this deal. But to me, I'd be trying to reroute Dylan Brooks for stuff. I'd be trying to reroute Jalen Green for stuff. I'd be trying to start that process to have some stuff to build around Devin Booker going forward. Grace and Allen and Royce O'Neill. I mean, I mean,

I mean, I, I mean, Grayson Allen's on a bad contract. I don't think they're getting anything for him. is a guy that you could maybe turn into stuff. But this is what the sons have to start doing. They have to start digging. Well, here's the thing. Bradley Beal, let's just do some math here. Bradley Beal, I'm going to just do it as with it. Bradley Beal's making $53 million.

Got window right and down numbers. Ben Booker, $53 million. Yeah. Jalen Green, $33 million. In theory, they all play the same position. That is what, $139 million. Of shooting guard. Of shoot first guards.

Dylan Brooks plays the wing. I guess he's not, he's more of a. a three than a two. 161 million for four wing players. Okay. That's, okay, 1601 million. He can guard fours. All right.

Grayson, now, what position does he play? He's another wing. That's 178 million for five wing players. Well, position is Royce O'Neill play. Royce, he's kind of a four, but let's call him a wing player. He's an underside. It's $188 million for six wing players. Okay.

I mean, you need wings in the NBA. Don't get me wrong. But none of those guys can really play point guard. I mean, listen, Jaylon Green is a complaint. complete overlap in terms of talent, in terms of skill set, I should say, with Devin Booker and Bradley Beale. Like, he's a total, like, he does not fit. You know, they've got to try to figure out a way to reroute him. Obviously, they'd like to reroute Bradley Beale.

Good luck with all that. You know, that doesn't make sense. Brooks, I think you can argue is what they need. They need toughness. They need defense. You know, they need gritty role players. around Devin Booker, but green doesn't fit there. Green, you know, Green's in this deal because of the salary.

All right. So they've got a lot of set of roster. They have the number 10 pick in the draft. Reasonable to guess that they're going to try to draft a center there? No, I, no. Whatever they do, please Phoenix Suns, if you're listening, draft the best player. Don't draft some positional fit on the roster.

Whoever the best player is, draft the player. And Ishpia's mandate is always everything to win now, everything to win now, everything to win now, everything to win now. You've got to get off of that. You're not winning this season. I haven't heard, I haven't heard them say that. I haven't heard them say that. Ishby has said that over and over and over. No, no, no. Oh, yes. I haven't heard to say that they're going to that they're not going to try to win this season. No, that's what I'm saying? All they have said is win, win now, everything to win now. So why would I assume it's going to be different? Look, I'm not, I don't. I'm saying I'm trying to offer some. unsolicited advice that, dude, you've got to take a three to five-year view here. And it's like, it can't be disheard, this year, dishe, no, where is it.

I mean, we should. They must do that. Should we 100% assume they're going to draft at 10? No. I don't think we should assume that either. I don't think you can assume anything. Again, Ishpia's. Maybe they'll trade number 10 for three firsts in 12 years.

Uh, uh, his whole philosophy is everything to maximize your chances of winning now. And it is crippling that franchise's chance to ever win. winning long term. They're going to extend Devin Booker for two years and 150 million in the next two weeks. They're going to do that. Yeah. I mean, look, the mandate is clear, right? And the mandate is clear coming out of

this trade, which is the goal is to retool the roster around Devin Booker with what they have available. By the way, I haven't even brought up Ryan Dunn, who's their best young player. He plays the wing too. Yeah. Sorry. I mean, look, that's all fine. I mean, they also just don't like, look, this, again, this trade in a vacuum, like,

people are going to go, man, the sun's got nothing for KD. There was nothing available for KD for a variety of reasons. This is as much as they were going to get. You could argue they should just sit on it and try to like men fences or whatever. I don't think that made sense either. As I have said many times, I would be trading Devin Booker and like just starting over because there's, they have to start over. That's not what they're going to do. That's fine. So we will have a better picture. You ask about the return of the trade. The truth is, as you said, the trade can expand between now and July 6th. I think there's little doubt it's going to expand in some form between now and July 6th. And we will have a much better sense a week from now on the eve of free agency of what this trade

looks like and where the suns are based off what they do this week. But as Tim said, based off of the Matt Ishpia tenure with the franchise over the last two and a half years, though now the experts are out of the way, so maybe it'll be different. The expectation should be... It won't be different. Well, the expectation should be that this team is going to be very aggressive this week and is going to make trades and is going to try to approve the roster with win now moves. We will see where that lands.

We will see if Bradley Bills on the team. We'll see if Jalen Green's on the team. We'll see if Dillen Brooks is on the team. the only thing that I would say is certain is that Devin Booker will be on the team and Devin Booker will get that extension and then we will see what the Sons look like around him

going into next season. But sitting here right now if the Sons do something that makes them one of the six or eight best teams in the West over the next two weeks, I will be the first to say I am incorrect about this. It's hard for me to see how they're going to get

from where they are right now, which is maybe the 13th or 14th best team in the West to a playoff team. Listen, it's going to be a tough climb for these sons to return to relevancy in the Western Conference. Simple as that. And the Rockets are, they've benefited from it to have this 10th overall pick that they could use to get a guy who I think is a great immediate fit, short-term fit. But again, they didn't give up like a ton of future assets. In fact, they still have two future sons picks.

And those are the extreme value. Well, that's the thing. When they did the deal last summer with Brooklyn, where they got the two firsts and the swap, the concept was, oh, they're going to trade those for Durant. They end up getting Durant for one third of that stuff. Yeah. And they also have the Mavs 29 pick out of that deal. So it's really three picks and swap.

And by the way, what was the most valuable asset? that the Grizzlies got in the Desmond Bain deal. Next year's son's pick. Essentially, yes. Yeah, I don't think the Grizzlies are disappointed with this development. One more thing before we pivot to the rockets. And please, if you think I'm flawed in thinking, please step forward. Should the sons just have ignored what KD wanted and traded into the warriors at the trade deadline?

Yes. Yeah, honestly, yes. Because wouldn't they have had Jimmy, but, I mean, would they not have had Jimmy Butler and Jonathan Cominga? Am I wrong in saying that? You have better info here than I do. So I'm legitimately asking, were the warriors willing to do that with KD saying, don't get me?

No, no, the warriors were the ones who backed out of it. You're right. Okay. But you're correct on that. Look, if the sons have been able to do that trade, that was a much better return than the trade they got now. There's no question. Okay. let me ask you this. Should they have ignored what KD wanted and traded did the deal with Minnesota?

Again, that's the problem. These are all like, yes, like sure, if you could just put in a trade machine, we're going to send Kevin Durant somewhere and get stuff back that's better. Yeah, that's great. But like that the other teams involved here are part of the trade. It's not like the other team was saying, please give us Kevin Durant even though he doesn't want to come here. Yeah. And I think it would have been a bad idea for Minnesota to ignore KD's saying, hey, you don't want to be. Again, like we talked about before, a Rudy-Gaer-Ber trade for Kevin Durant did not make sense for Minnesota, despite what people might say about the value of Rudy-Gobair and Kevin Durant. It would have made the wolves worse. So that – This to me was always – Houston was always the place that made the most sense. Yes, as the process played out, the Rockets work – the team that – where it just – it did work because of – What I would say to your point, Brian, is if – and you were all over this story in February.

So you should correct me if I'm wrong on this for sure. But if the Sons had worked with Kevin a little better in February and greased the skids to get him to Golden State in February, that would have been a much better outcome than this outcome for the sons. But short of that happening, right, that is now off the board. You look at the options available now. The options available now, this is the best that they had, which is the best of a very, you know, media. yoker lot. And it's, again, to me, it's less about the merits of this specific trade than it is the all-encompassing nature of everything that's gone wrong the past couple of years, to McMahon's point, of just the continual throwing assets down the drain repeatedly and all these various

decisions that have all led up to this, which is why I am very curious to see what the next couple weeks look like because of where it could land them. Let me amend my point. KD controlled his last two trades He controlled getting himself to Phoenix And he controlled blocking Or disengaging the warriors and wolves Correct To some level

Yet Phoenix Paid a massive premium to get him And then had to pay And then had to sell him for less Because of the Because of the lack of a competitive market So they

They paid a huge price in a non-competitive market the first time around and then paid, you know, sold low for the same reason two years, two and a half years later. Made a big splash. There was a lot of sizzle. There was little substance in terms of winning, you know, KD1A playoff series in Phoenix. And then they had to sell, I don't know, I'm not going to say pennies on the dollar, but certainly change on the dollar. I'm just saying when he came to Phoenix.

It was the only place he wanted to go. He told the Nets, I only wanted to be traded to the Sons. And they gave up four picks and three swaps and two very good players. And Cam Johnson. Yeah. I mean, that was an immense hole. And this is a fraction of that. One one more thing.

2018, do you remember when the Sons traded for Dylan Brooks? But. Oh, yeah. That's right. He thought it was Marshawn Brooks. Yeah. No, I don't know where Marshawn is, but Dylan is definitely going to Phoenix this time around. Well, maybe not. We'll see.

I think Marshawn might be playing in China. I'm not sure. All right. I just remembered that. Yeah, no, this is the, the rockets only had one Brooks. There might have been some confusion if there was other guys involved, but there was only one Brooks. Whatever that was. I don't even remember who else was involved. I just remember it was a three-team trade. Kelly Ubrae was involved. Wasn't Austin Rivers involved?

I don't know. I don't know. I remember. Yeah, whatever it was. I think Woge reported. I remember Woj reporting. Dylan Brooks, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, Dylan Brooks and whatever to Phoenix.

And then, like, five minutes later, it was like, oh, correction. It was actually Marshawn Brooks. And this sounds like correction. I want to correct that correction. Oh, my God. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. All right.

Anyway, the Rockets. as we talked about for months I don't think the Rockets wanted to trade for a 37-year-old player but they got the price to a point here I mean just so you know the Rockets didn't want to pay a premium for a 36-year-old player

right right this is the thing I was going to say before the sons have been waiting for weeks for somebody to blink and nobody did so why make the deal I think because they decided they had to move forward and nobody

was going to budge. There's been weak. None of this has, I think, changed for a while. Like, Miami's offer, I don't believe, was changing. They're not putting in the more attractive stuff. I don't think Houston's offer was changing. I don't think they were putting in the more attractive stuff. Miami had an opera, yeah, before, because I'm starting to see people say, oh my gosh, the heat lost. Miami had a chance to make a better offer at the trade deadline and elected not to make it. And they had a chance to make a better offer. Now, maybe they couldn't upbid Houston anyway. I'm just telling you. No, they could have outbitted Houston if they chose to. They chose not to. The heat actively chose to get Andrew. The heat actively chose to get Andrew Wiggins in a first round pick in February, then trade picks with stuff to get Kevin Durant in February. They made that active decision. And by the way, they then lost by a billion to the Cavs in the first round of the playoffs. Like this heat came giving up future assets for a 37-year-old Kevin Durant didn't make any sense at all.

No, whereas I do think it does make a lot of sense for Houston, this particular trade, not giving up the farm for Kevin Durant. And again, their whole thing was they didn't want to make a deal that shortened the runway, but they knew they needed a go-to guy. They knew that was the one massive missing piece. But they've got a chance, I think, to be, you know, we can play semantics on contender. But this was a two seed that gave the word. Warriors, a very competitive series, as my light goes out, is like young, athletic, tough, and now they're adding one of the most skill, a guy who's still one of the most skilled players in the league. I love this move for the Rockets.

Look, the Rockets essentially have taken Jalen Green out of their lineup and inefficient, not all that great score who on this team. Well, he was sometimes great. He was great about one and a half of... Listen, he had... He had moments, but he was not a player that was good enough to be the best perimeter score on a team that's trying to win anything. His playoff series, one big splash game and the rest was blah. That's kind of great. And their team, their team was an excellent defensive team that was mediocre to bat on offense a lot of the time.

And they grind it out a lot of wins, right? They now have added Kevin Durant to that team, essentially just in place of Jalen Greene. They'll have Fred Van Vleet back. they can, assuming they don't make any other trades, which, by the way, they have kept virtually all their assets so they could go make another big trade if they want this. Yeah. And by the way, they were probably going to trade the 10th pick no matter what. They were probably going to trade. They didn't have room for another young asset on this team.

Obviously, there's a guy at 10 that they were in love with and like, oh my God, this is the perfect fit. They would have done it. They couldn't play their lottery pick last year. Right. So this. Sheppard barely played. This 10, and they couldn't get him and they wouldn't trade him either. this pick was probably not going to go to Houston anyway.

So, yeah, they give a lottery pick here, but they didn't even value that. But again, it's a lottery pick that they got by making a great deal with Brooklyn last year. By the way, let's just do this right now. Let's just do this. Since I've got a pen and I'm writing stuff down. Let's write down how many things that the rockets have that they value more than Jalen Green in the number 10 pick. Okay. I'm in Thompson.

Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. He's got it right. Got it. Keep going. Amin Thompson. Yep. Tar Yason. Tar Yeson. Alperin Shingoon.

Alparan Shungoon. He honestly should be higher on that list. This is no order of these. No order on these. Reed Shepard. The other two sons picks that they have. Yep. You know, I think that's a.

I don't know. What about the Mavericks? What about the Mavericks pick? The Mavericks pick, yes. Probably. Definitely. Although the value on that over the last couple of years is the Mazz of traded Luca won the lottery. I still think people would take a swing on Dallas at the moment, given where Dallas is at.

All right. What about Fred Van Vleet? They love Fred Van Vleet. Okay. I'm putting them on. Yeah, Fred is. He's the Staticasson. You don't think the Sons would have taken Fred Van Vleet.

I'm putting them on there. No, for sure. Oh, God. Fred Van Vleet's exactly the kind of point guard. The Sun is indeed. No, yeah. That's a minimum of eight or nine. assets that were talking about. And look, the other thing about trading Jalen Green, it probably opens up minutes for Reed Shepard, who last year, and Reed Shepard was not in the rotation. He was heard at the time, but he hadn't really been in the rotation. When I went down there and wrote this story about the rockets are primed to make a big splash, but they're going to be, it's a very cautious approach. I was told they think Reed Shepard might be the most talented offensive player on that.

roster. Well, yes. Not anymore. Kevin Drain is now, but. Well, but look, I also think, I mean, again, if you're talking about knock on effects of this trade, let's just say the rockets are who they are, basically, right? I really like Jabari Smith. I think he's a really good player as a forward who can shoot it and guard multiple positions. Moving Dylan Brooks out of there in particular, you move Dylan Brooks and Jaylon Green out. There's now more minutes for Jabari Smith to play, whose minutes would sometimes fluctuate last year. There's more minutes and more of a role for Amen Thompson, even more than what he had before.

He's obviously a focal point for them going forward. There's more minutes for Tari Isan going forward. There's arguably even more minutes for Cam Whitmore going forward, who is an interesting player, who's an up and down career so far. He's been to the G-League some. He's had some public battles with IMA Odoca. Second apron stuff here. The sons are still in the second apron.

In another construction of this trade, they probably could have asked for Cam Whitmore in this trade. But they couldn't get him in this trade because they would take him back too much money. Right. So like I'm not sure exactly. Just to be clear, I don't have the exact reporting on the construction. But like this, even if even if they were willing to give Cam Whitmore, they couldn't have done all three of those guys for Durant. Right.

So like there's where the second ever invites you. And I think the point is, what are the, you know, let's let's throw the two sons picks they have out because, you know, maybe those picks. neither will be in the top 10 because the sons can look you in the eye and say we traded for a top 10 pick. Yeah. At the very bottom line, they probably didn't trade

their five preferred assets. And I'm talking about five, six, seven. Just young players. Five preferred young players. Yeah, they're five most valued young players are still in the wrong. They didn't trade any of their really good

two-way young players. Jabari Smith Jr., Tar Heeson, a men Thompson those guys are completely and they got Kevin Durant and that's what the sons were that's what the sons have been hoping for

they've been hoping for somebody whether it's Miami to put in Colleen Ware whether it's Houston to put in one of these guys whether it's Minnesota to want to do something where it's San Antonio to whatever name the team right they were hoping somebody would go we got to get Kevin Durant

and jump in and do what the son not to the same degree the sons did but to do what the sons did two and a half years ago and overpay But everybody saw the situation for what it was, where Kevin Durant is a distressed asset, who's 37, who has an injury history, who's going to want a ton of money, who, by the way, has won two playoff series in the last six years. So I think there is some question about the level of winning he can drive still.

Now, I do think Houston is the perfect place for him to go. A bunch of young athletic dudes around him, an offense that is pretty isolation heavy, but they're going to let Kevin be able to have the ball and operate and work around these guys, gives the parent-shangoon more room to operate inside. I think basketball-wise, this was easily the best fit by a mile with the coach he's got a relationship with and likes. Like, I do think it's a very good trade for the Rockets. And look, if there's a big fish that comes available between now and the trade deadline in February, they could still go get a guy because they have all this stuff to trade.

I don't think the Rockets are hoping for a big fish to become available. Their whole thing was they wanted their young core to be able to grow. Well, listen, I'm not saying. I'll be honest, I never really bought the belief they were selling in Jalen Green. Whatever. He was down the list of the guys who I think had the most value to the Rockets. By the way, just in terms of fit, Jackson's performance as a producer, they're much, much better than his pickup performance.

Here you go. Rockets, 7th in isolations per game last season, but 27th in points per ISO. Durant led the league in points per ISO among high usage guys, among guys to run at least 200. They got still at 37, KD is one of, if not the best ISO player, and they just didn't have the guy who could get them buckets when things stalled. They didn't have the guy late in the fourth quarter of a playoff game. they didn't have the guy who could say, hey, get us a bucket. This is going to be an elite defensive team.

This is going to be an elite rebounding team. That's how they had an ugly ass offense, and we're still a second seed that gave the Warriors a tough series. Now they've got that go-to guy. We'll see how long he's at that level, but at least a couple of years, if it's a two-year extension, that third year, maybe it's tough. But again, they did it with. out sacrificing young core.

More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Even if they don't extend, let's say Kevin Durant doesn't extend. Let's say it's a one-year deal. I still think it's a big win for Houston. Yeah. Like this is a no doubt trade for them. They get off of Jalen Green's contract. And they get off of Dylan Brooks's money, which Dylan Brooks's contract is fine.

But it like, and you turn, like to McMahon's point, if he's in Phoenix, he'll be useful. If they want to trade him for an asset, he'll be, he's a useful. places, but they have a lot of guys who could play that role between Tari East and Jabari Smith and Amend Thompson. That's an expendable piece. They have a million young players and draft pick, so the 10th pick is an expendable piece. And look, Jalen Green was their dominant perimeter shooter last year, right? He shot 42% overall. He shot 35% from three on 17 attempts a game from the field. In the playoffs, he played 30 minutes. He shot 37% from the field. He shot 29% from three. They replaced that with Kevin Duran.

The Rockets have a chance to be a drastically better offensive team with Duran. And again, Reed Shepard is a wild card in all this. All right. Let's talk about the bigger picture with the Rockets. Okay. I want to talk about what they did with the Stephen Adams. They signed Stephen Adams last week to a contract extension. And he's a quality role-playing big man who would have gotten attention on the market.

They kept him off the market. but I want to talk about the contract he did. He signed a contract that descends in value. It's $14 million, $13 million, $11 million. They're doing that because they're trying to already manage the salaries that they've got. So this summer, they are in position to extend Jabari Smith. I would think since they kept them out of this trade that they intend to do so. And Tarisan.

And Tarisan. Then the year after that, they have to take care of, you know, one year from now. They have to take care of a men Thompson. And if a men Thompson has another year, like he did this last year, I think that's a max. I'm coming, you know, that's a fun, that's fun max territory. I mean, I know that we're in the era where the fun max is under threat because of the apron. Yeah, I mean, we'll see. I don't think, I don't think, I don't think.

Whatever the number, it's going to be a, it's going to be a big extension. They, they, they, they did some maneuvering on both El Perrin Shingun and Jane Green's extensions last year. Yeah. where they didn't yield. So that's why I'm, that's why I don't just flippantly say, oh, yeah, they're going to give, you know, that's why I want to know what the Durant extension is. And also, remember, Fred Van Vleet, they have a team option on him for next season.

Now, he's going to be a rocket. There's no way that they're going to not pick that up unless they have an understanding of what a new contract is going to do. But here's my thing. I just, I just said, they got a page, you know, and this is, this is where the second apron thing is different. In the past, it was like, Tillman Fritita, are you okay with having a $300 million payroll with taxes?

You are? Okay, fine. Let's pay all these dudes. Now you can't do that. So that's my question. In the next, they probably already have an understanding with Durant now. But if they don't, they got a pretty good, it's going to be fast. They better have an understanding with Fred Van Vleet now. And if they don't,

it's going to be fast. So what happens with Durant and Van Vleet are going to be key in the next few days. They already moved Van Vent's option date back. to help facilitate any moves they could make, right? So they've already been working with Fred on this. I'm sure Fred will be there to your point. It would certainly make sense if Fred opts out of this $44 million

and signs for a longer-term deal on lower numbers that allows for them to have more flexibility going forward. Not saying it's definitely going to happen. Although the other thing that could make sense is for them to give him the $44 with an understanding, of, hey, we can't officially do it now, but this 44 is essentially, we're going to give you this lump sum now and a massive pay cut later, but this is to keep you around for the next year or four years.

Sure. That's a possibility. There's different ways. There's different ways to do that, right? What the certainty is, is Fred Van Vliet is firmly in their plans. Fred Van B'Aid is completely aligned with Raffel Stone, with Imeyodoka, with Patrick Fretta, and he, like, he is a huge, huge part of that franchise's management coaching staffing on the floor.

Like, he's, he's involved in all that. One of the best leaders in the league. One of the best locker room presences in the league. Like, obviously, one of a title with Toronto, tough as nails, like, exactly the kind of guy you think he made a doco would love to have as his point card. Like, it's not a coincidence. Fred has shown up there. These young guys have all gotten better.

Like, you know, he's definitely going to be there. And yeah, but that's the point, right? Like they're working with Fred Van Bleed. Eme Adoka's got a long-of-same relationship with Kevin Durant. Like, he's going to walk in there with, I'm sure, some understanding of what it is they're trying to do. Yeah, they were together in Brooklyn for a year. They were together with Team USA. And by the way, Royale Ivy, one of EMA's assistants, a guy who, you know, I think Scott

future head coach potential, certainly had a hell of a run with South Sudan's national team. I want of Kevin's best friends. Yeah, college teammates. For years, teams have been hiring Royal Ivy and they've been like, oh, they're doing it to get Durant. I think he actually played with in OKC too, didn't he? And your point on the second apron thing, Brian, you make a really good point about the Rockets. Now, I didn't like the Jailing Green deal at the time. That doesn't matter.

But it served its function. I mean, people saw it. It did serve its function, but that's not the point of the discussion, though. But the Alperin-Shangoon deal, I think is very instructive. of where the Rockets were thinking ahead in ways that a lot of other teams were not. A parent Changoon, when he was up for his extension, a lot of other teams that are just giving him a max deal. He'd already get off to a great start in his career.

He was on an all-star trajectory. He may have already made the all-star team. I don't know if this was his first year. He made area if he last year was. Last year was. It's a fun max. Fun max zone. Yes.

The Fun Max doesn't really exist anymore. At least it shouldn't because you have to mind every single dollar on your purse. And I'm just, I'm looking at Bobby Marks's sheet. So going forward, a guy in Alparan-Gangoon who could have been on the 25% max, right? Here's his percentage of the cap under Bobby's projections for the next four years. 18%, 17%, 16%, 15%. If you have a guy like that and you're paying him 15% instead of 24%, right? That is very easily the difference between one or two more good players. being on your team.

That's the kind of stuff that more teams have to start thinking about and not just giving away extra money on extensions and deals because then you look a year or two later, you go, oh, man, we're now bumping up against a second apron. You know, like look at Minnesota. Minnesota. Look at Cleveland. Look at Cleveland.

Look at Minnesota. They have to make decisions. Do they keep Nikiel Alexander Walker and Nas Reid? And what do they do with Julius Randall? Can Cleveland keep Ty Jerome and Sam Merrill? Like, can, you know, Boston, we're talking all season. Boston, how many players are Boston going to lose because they're so expensive? You mentioned Phoenix couldn't get Cam Whitmore in this trade, at least in part, because

it was, it cost too much money, right? You couldn't aggregate that way. So like, that's why you just, it's really, I think critically important for teams to be hyper focused on every dollar in these deals. And yeah, like, you might have to negotiate a little bit. I'm sure the Shangoon negotiations were a little rockier than it would have been if I mean, they didn't happen until right before the deadline, you know. That's right.

We weren't sure they were going to take it. That's right. But that extra. Both Jayland Green and Schengun both did the deals right at the end. And the Rockets quote unquote won those. Yeah. And that extra $20 or $30 million over the life of Schengun's deal, that could be the difference between them keeping Tarisen or keeping Jabari Smith or somebody else.

Just stick with your percentages. This is the way smart teams have been talking for a few years, not the actual dollars, but the percentages of the cap. If you sign two players to 25% of the cap, that's half of your, half of your salary cap. If you sign one to 18% and 1 to 21%, you've just created a spot for a whole other player, just on percentages.

And then as the cap goes on, obviously the cap will go up and that percentage just goes down. So maybe you don't necessarily keep a player the first year you negotiate hard, but maybe in the third year you're able to do that. And that's like, like look, today the Oklahoma City Thunder are 100% focused

on trying to get their first championship. That is what this is all about. They can't be bothered with what Kevin Durant's being traded for. They can't be bothered on this other stuff. But when this is over, they've got three contracts to sign. Okay, they've got to do She.

Jay Go Sam Zander, Chad Holmgren, Jaylen Williams, and Shet Holmgren. And if they can squeeze three, two or three percentage points underneath, you know, if they could get Chad Holmgren for 21%, 22%,

if they could somehow get Jalen. Or, like, I'm not, I'm not putting words in the guy's mouth. As far as I know, he's never addressed this. But Shea Yieldos Alexander, who represents himself now, if he basically says, hey, I want to maximize our chances of contending, I'll take a little bit less than the full supermax. Like, there's a lot of possibilities. How do you keep Kaysen Wallace in three years?

You get Chet Homer going to take 20% instead of 25% of your cap. Yeah. Because like you said, it's not, it's not just as simple as you pay everybody. Right? It's not just the owner's got to pay money. Like the Thunder are a good example. They in 2014 and 2015 were saving money in 2012 and 2013 to pay the Kevin Durant, Serge Baca, Russell Westbrook Thunder after they all resign. Now, obviously, history went in a different direction, but they wound up having a gigantic luxury tax bill for Russell Westbrook, Paul, Georgia, Carbello, Anthony. And that money was money they had earmarked four or five years earlier. With all those picks they have, like they didn't make some splashy all-end trade because they knew like, hey, this payroll, if things progressed the way we anticipate it's going to get big. Yes. And so now it's a combination of you have to be planning ahead financially, right, which the thunder have been doing to pay all these guys from a pure monetary standpoint. But you also have to plan ahead from a salary number perspective on the cap because you just, if you're, you can go in the second apron for a couple of years.

but once you do, there's a time crunch because of all the limitations you have on your roster between the draft pick stuff, you can't send her guys over the minimum, you can't aggregate all these things. It just really restricts what you can do with your team. So when you're going to go in there, A, you got to be good enough to win and B, you got to be able to get back out. And so that's the calculus all these teams have to make. And I'm like, look, Orlando just made this Des Bain trade.

I really like this trade for them. But like, we'll see if they didn't negotiate on Franz Wagner. They gave Franz Wagner the full 25% fund max. They didn't really fight with him on that. We'll see if in a couple of years, we'll see where Orlando's books are at. Maybe they'll have to start making hard decisions, and that extra $10 million might end up making a huge difference for him. You know, the other element of the negotiations with, I think, Jabari Smith Jr. in particular, you know, a former number three overall pick, a guy who certainly has shown that he's a quality two-way player.

He was coming off the bench last year. And, you know, because Amin Thompson took that job when Jabari Smith Jr. was out and just, like, was never coming out of the starting lineup. I wonder now if, you know, is it as simple as, hey, Jabari, you're back in the starting lineup. You know, you're assured of a starting role. And then you kind of take that element out of any extension discussions. I don't know that because, you know, Tauri-Eason also could very easily slide into the starting lineup. Yeah, there's going to be a lot we're going to have to discuss. There's going to be more that these teams do.

And I cannot wait for where what happens is Durant contract and what happens with Fred Van Gogh. Because Rafael Stone has had a very successful campaign as the Rockets General Manager. Yeah. Starting with a full-blown tear down. Patrick Fertita, Tillman's son, has played an important role. Tillman is now the ambassador in Italy. Yeah. He's having Cashew Apepe.

I don't know if he's, you know, how much. He's never, he's never, Tillman's never really been involved in the day to day. Tillman's contribution has been getting out of the way after the Chris Paul trade. Well, he's. I don't know, but seriously, it has been about, okay, you guys think this is the best route, and then staying patient when it was painful because there were three ugly years in Houston,

but that was what they had to go through. I remember the press conference after the Hardin deal, and he explained what their thought process was. And for an owner who's still very much a new owner, hearing that, it was, you could tell that it was a hard sell to the fans, much less the guy who bought the team and then ran. And who bought the team when they were, right before they had a 65 win season

and the whole hamstring away thing. His first game as owner, they won in the defending champion warriors. I think they opened the season. I don't know if it was the first game of the second game. Right out of the gate, they won in Golden State and the first few games of him being an owner,

and he was running on the court celebrating. Yeah. And to go full circle to where we started with this, like there's a lot of parallels between the Tillman-Fertita, beginning of his run, and the Batishbia, beginning of his run. And Tillma Fratida learned his lessons, and, you know, we've made jokes about the experts now being out of the way.

Timma Fratita let his front office do its job. And it took a couple of years. And they didn't get everything right, like the drafted Jalen Green over Evan Mobley, which obviously in retrospect isn't great. But if you look at the arc of what they've done, they've built a damn good team. They got a ton of assets. They have now added Kevin Durant without tackle. and all this stuff. They're signing guys to good contracts. Like, you know, it's going to be very difficult to catch Oklahoma City. But like Houston's sitting here. And for the rest of the decade,

there are very few teams other than Oklahoma City. Like right now, you might even take them over San Antonio, even though San Antonio's victor in the West because of the amount of stuff the rockets have amassed on this, including getting Emilio, don't going to coach the team. So like, if you're Phoenix, to go back to the beginning. Yes, this trade does not feel great to make and let's see what they do over the next week or two. But like at some point, there has to be a looking in the mirror moment to go, we have to do things differently,

can't just keep trying to chase instant gratification of winning today and trying to know, it's like we're going to win the championship this year thing. It's not going to work. And I think we'll have a much better sense between now in July 1 or July 8, July 6, or July 8th, whether the Sons have started to learn some lessons or whether they're now just going to take this stuff and throw it at some other guys who are going to try to win now with Devin Booker to win 40 games. These are two new owners who over the last, you know, since Isb has bought the team in the last five

years for the Rockets have taken polar opposite approaches. The Rockets are benefiting greatly from their approach. And the Rockets are also benefiting greatly from the Sun's approach. All right. That's enough for our emergency pod. On to Game 7. Let's cover a game 7. Real quick, you guys probably saw that Durant was on stage at the Fanatics Fest in New York City when Shams broke the news.

There's a ton of people saying this is when Durant found out. It was really cool to see because he had this huge smile on his face. And everybody was screaming. I believe he was being interviewed by Taylor Rooks on stage. And everybody was screaming. You just got traded. and he had this big smile on his face. He's like, oh, I know.

Yeah. To one of his preferred destinations. Yes. Obviously, he knew that it was about to happen. He may not have known it had been agreed to, but when he walked on stage, he knew. But whatever, I don't want to mess with him. Just so you know, like he did, he's given some interviews afterwards, sort of saying that same thing.

But it was still a unique thing to see. And, and so that, I mean, we've, we've seen guys, you know, we've here, we hear, guys tell stories about where they were when they found out. This one was, you know, in front of hundreds, if not thousands of fans. I don't know. I mean before there. So, all right, thank you to McMahon and to Jackson for cutting their pickup game short to come record this podcast. Oh, I finished the domination. Kind of really, if I'm being honest, it was kind of like an Alpey Shingoon type of performance from me today. All offense, no defense? Listen, man, they were a top five defense in the league last year, buddy.

I said what I said. All right. On to game seven. We got a bunch of free agency and draft stuff coming. I recorded a podcast earlier today with Jonathan Gavoni. So we'll have that with the draft, starting to turn the page to that. And game seven. Host game seven, live stream, I believe.

These are busy days. Adios amigos.