Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Fox To Spurs Trade Reaction + Mavs Awkward Luka Trade Presser & Lakers’ Star History

Episode Date: February 3, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the latest trade in the NBA involving the Kings, Spurs & Bulls centered around De'Aaron Fox & Zach LaVine. The guys talk the winners & losers of the deal before ESPN’s Ramona Shelburne joins to talk about how some of the historical LA superstar trades that almost happened helped the Lakers to get Luka Doncic this time. Then, the guys talk Mavs GM Nico Harrison’s unique press conference about the blockbuster trade before breaking down where Dallas goes from here. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to Luke Collect the podcast presented by State Farm. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Sunday evening. Joining us from the center in Philadelphia, where he watched the Celtics come back from 26 points down to beat the 76ers on Sunday afternoon.

Timbont Temps. Hello, everybody. Didn't sleep last night. I don't think of it slept at all. I don't think of sleep eventually, but it wasn't at night. Joining us from Cleveland, Ohio, where he had an interesting day, including talking to Nico Harrison and Jason Kidd about the Luca Donchitz trade. and then watching a highly entertaining basketball game between the Mavs and the Cavs,

where the Cavs scored 91 points in the first half, and one by 40, it's Ban McMahon. Howdy! Partners, Band Sleep Update. Got about two hours last night, dozed for about 20 minutes, missed the beginning of the third quarter of this. Because you were sleeping?

Looks like it's going to be a Grizzlies win. No, this night game, Grizzlies went over the bucks here. That's about to wrap up. I'm just glad to see Jared Jackson back on the court after he had some blood coming out of his face. That was a win. dozed off at a half time of that thing.

No, I was, so obviously I'm writing off of the... You didn't watch me do the halftime show? That's probably what put me to sleep. I, uh... So sad. Hey, I was here for Cavs Corner. I met old Moondog. And Moondog, what?

Hold on a second. People this. Moon Dog gave me a nice little gift bag, if you can see on YouTube here. Let them know. You got me, let them know. You got me on a sweet little Moondog NBA Jam T-shirt. Okay.

There's a dog. That's Moon Dog and Sir Cecee. Oh, I didn't know who the other fellow was. The Cavs, the Cavs for some reason have two mascots. Well, Moondog. Calf Corner. Caz Corner is, there's no time for only one mascot. There's a dog tag, there's a little wristband,

and then I'll let them know postcard that says, I'll read it to you. Howdy! Should you, because no one can read it. Shut up, Bontems. Oh, it should have said that, but it's implied, if you listen. Howdy, partner. Welcome to my second favorite. Hoop Collective podcaster,

parentheses. We are all windy guys here in Northeast Ohio. Keep up the great content, Moondog. So by process of elimination, you're dead last, bond temp. So stop interrupt and shut your yap for one freaking podcast. That's straight from Moondog, baby. I've said for years that he's the best dog in the league.

All right. We're going to go from dogs to foxes. Hey, did you like that? That's why you're his favorite podcaster, Northeast Ohio. All right, we got a big three-way trade that happened on Sunday that briefly dulled the Donchich, Anthony Davis trade. Hey, speaking of always in last place, how about those Chicago Bulls coming in last in a Spurs Kings deal again? Well, I was talking to an executive today, and this is before the trade. And he's like, he was a Western Conference executive, and he was complaining about how hard the West is becoming.

And he's like, you know, you look at the Eastern Conference, the Bulls traded away. You know, they, well, they, you know, let Rosen walk in free agency. I guess they traded them. And they traded away De Rosen and Alex Caruso, and they're in the exact same place. They're the exact same place that they were. So anyway, the interesting part of this trade. So Dearen Fox goes to San Antonio, which from the moment that it was clear that the kings were willing to trade him, that was the favorite thing to happen. We'll discuss that at length.

Zach Levine, after being on the trade block, essentially for the last year and a half or, you know, year plus, is freed. eight years after he signed an offer sheet with Sacramento, Vivek Renadive finally gets his man with two years and about $100 million left on his contract. Hey, you got to give Vladi credit for finally getting his guy. Well, Vladi is long gone. You mean Vivek? No, Vlade's had a great run. He was right about Luca, apparently. Right. Right. That's true. Okay. So you're right. It's been a great couple of days for Vladi for the Vladi legacy as an executive. And the Bulls get...

I guess Kevin heard her in a couple of, I guess, Trey Jones. I mean, Trey Jones is a decent backup point card. Zach Collins was the salary filler and was the worst contract on the Spurs. The most important thing the Bulls got was their pickback. Right. So now they- Except the Bulls had a pick out that was top 10 protected and then top eight protected twice. This team very easily could have just kept that pick.

It shouldn't be treated as some like grand gesture that the Bulls got this pick back. By the way, they traded their best player and got the pick. back. So it's a tanking move. They don't have to tank anymore. But they already were too bad. They already were bad enough that they were going to keep the pick anyway. I agree. And by the way, we should remind people, this pick was sent to San Antonio when they signed DeMarta Rosen a few years ago. By the way, when they signed to Marta Rosen for about a gazillion dollars more than anybody else was trying to pay him at the time. And so they did that. That didn't turn out to be a bad contract, though. It wasn't a good transaction. And then on top of that, as you may,

mentioned McMahon. This summer, they trade DeMardoz and to Sacramento and they get left out of all the good stuff in the trade. One of the things they get is a 2028 second round pick from the Sacramento Kings and the deal. Well, guess what? In this trade where they send Zach Levine to the Kings, what goes back to the Kings? Their 2028 second round pick. Yeah. So again, just wonderful asset management by our tourist carnitius. All of the De Rosen sign and trades were coming undone. They're coming undone. So it's just truly, just truly staggering mismanagement. The Bulls have wrapped up the DeMar de Rosen business now. It's official. Put a bow on that. Yes, they've offloaded it to Sacramento where the DeRosen-Levin paring bore no fruit in Chicago. So let's take them older in Sacramento.

Just as a reminder, the Bulls have traded Zach Levine, DeMarder Rosen, and Alex Caruso, and have gotten back their own first round pick that they traded in another bad deal. But they were going to get this year anyway. That they were going to get because it was already top 10 protected and they're in the top 10 and they got Josh Giddy. That's the whole return from all three players. All right. We've talked enough about the Bulls.

Let's talk about the two teams that actually are trying to get better now. The reaction from the league, at least, you know, I haven't hold all 29, 28 other teams, but the reaction from the league is, my God, these spurs, got Deerran Fox didn't have to give up Stefan Castle and look Oh, there was no way. No way.

The thing is I'm not sure how much the Kings really tried to get them because Castle isn't a great shooter. We're never giving up Safon Castle in the show. Let's just move on from that. I'm confident that the Kings came in

and said, we want Castle and the Spurs were like absolutely not. But forget about that. Let's not move on from that. They didn't give up Castle. They didn't give up Devon, sell. They didn't even give up Keon Johnson, who. Kelton Johnson, Kelton Johnson's on the Nets. Yes, you're right. They didn't even go up Kelden Johnson, who is a high quality reserve, but still.

No, he's not, but that's fine. He's a, he's a quality reserve player. Yes, he is. They didn't. Wendy's point is they didn't, as far like, Trey Jones, I think is a quality backup point guard, but he wasn't going to be playing on this team that has Chris Paul and, and, Deeran Fox now, they didn't give up any of their young rotation players. Right. And they gave up Zach Collins, who's had the worst contract on the roster, as you said. Now, it looks like they gave up four first round picks, but they actually didn't. They gave up three first round picks, and one of them is a fake pick. No, they gave up four total, but one's a fake pick.

Right. So they gave up Charlotte's pick this year, but... Oh, because we're counting the Bulls pick, right? It's lottery protected, and if it doesn't convey, which it will not, because Charlotte is the third worst team in the league, it turns into two second round picks. So they were never getting a first round pick. So it looks like four firsts, but now it's not the way down to three. One of them is the Bulls pick, which we already said was likely not going to convey this year. So they give up their 2027 pick, which with the Aaron Fox and Victor Wenbanyama in two more years,

I don't think this 2027 spurs pick is going to be that good. And the only sort of plus-looking pick that they gave up is the Minnesota Timberwell's 2013 pick, which the only reason that's considered a good pick is because we don't

know what the wolves are going to be in 2013 and they might be terrible. They might still be good. The best pick

that the Spurs had for this year is the Atlanta Hawks unprotected pick, which... Or even their own this year.

True. Even their own this year. Those two are the picks that are yeah, the most immediate value. So they get

De Aaron Fox for no, you know, no key rotation player. And yeah, they gave up some picks, but not their good picks. Well, yeah, this is because the Bulls got involved and did them a huge favor by giving the Kings a very good player in the deal. So the Kings, I think, came out of this deal in pretty good shape. They've been trying to give away for 15 months. Well, yes, I, okay, listen, I agree with that. Zach Levine, if you look at Zach Levine and DeAren Fox's numbers, they're not too dissimilar a player. So if you're the Kings, you come out of this with two first round picks, five second round picks, and a guy in Zach Levine, who is a guy who this year is averaging 24 points and 51% shooting and 45% from three.

Like, I'm not trying to say the Kings are going to go win the title, but given they had no leverage in this situation and they're sitting here with a guy they have to trade to one place, I think that's a pretty decent return. And again, the fact that the Kings can come out of this with Zach Levine and the Bulls get themselves involved to, get their pickback that they didn't need to do, I think that helped the Spurs get this done without having to give up more stuff in the deal. Well, I'm going to tell you guys, the San Antonio Spurs are freaking thrilled. I thought this was a great trade for them. It's a good trade for that. They got to trade or they got to pay Fox, but you know what? You have the luxury of being able to pay Fox when you're still going to have time left on Victor's Rookie Contract. They've still got a ton of picks coming almost all of their own. I think they're only out one of their own picks,

still a couple from the hawks. By the way, the Kings didn't get back their own 2031 swap rights. Swap. Yeah, I was surprised by that. They still have 2030 swap rights on either Mazz or Wolves. And frankly, those Math swap rights are more valuable today than they were a couple days ago. Yeah, they gave up, you know, decent, you know, they gave up some quantity in draft picks, but they didn't give up high quality risk in the draft picks. I mean, they gave up one, I mean, that Minnesota picks a pretty high value. Okay, that I guess potentially. That was a good, that was a good win for Sacramento.

But when you look at the aggregate, when you look at the aggregate of what the Spurs had, the fact that they come out of this year's draft with the Atlanta pick, they keep the Atlanta swap, to keep the second Atlanta pick. Like that, that's a good win for the spurs. And look. Well, and rotation-wise, they plug in Deeran Fox, who's obviously going to start for a backup point guard. And that's because Colin was kind of a fringe rotation guy at this point anyway.

Yeah. I mean, I have concerns about this Deeran Fox contract. I don't think by the end of it, it's going to be a great deal. I am not sure that I would have been going all in to have him be one of the cornerstones of my team of Victor Wenbenyama. And they didn't go all in. Correct. I'm just, look, I like the price. Obviously, the price they got him at is a good, is a good price for sure. Like, you do this trade if you're them for sure, and it makes it more palatable.

They're going to end up paying them a deal that I think in the end is not going to look great this summer because they did keep so much of this other stuff in the deal. I also do think, though, that given the situation they were in, I think the Kings came out pretty good. I thought they did fine. I thought they did fine. They got decent quantity and picks, you know, including a bushel of seven. second rounders, including the Charlotte ones that are essentially two seconds. Yeah, I mean, they got two first five seconds in Zach Levine for Deerrin Fox. That's, that's a good return given the fact that they're at one place for the guy to go. And Zach Levine, like, obviously there's some durability concerns, but dude, Levine's having a phenomenal year. I agree, but he doesn't drive winning. That's fair. Deeran Fox is not driven winning either, guys. Fair. That's fair. That's fair.

I mean, Deeran Fox and Zach Levine are pretty comparable players. I think the Kings came out of this pretty good, not great, but pretty good, especially given the situation they were in. And look, Deerrin Fox is now being celebrated as a huge, massive piece. Well, I'll tell you this. There's a ton of pressure on De Aaron Fox now. Like, he's got to be, he's got to be a guy that's driving win in there. I think when you, I think he's going to have way more space to operate than he's ever had before because the way Victor stretches the floor. And I think he could be a really good fit there. I don't know if he can be this. I don't know if he's the second best player on a championship level team. That's the question. And they're

going to pay him like one. That's a fair assessment. The guys, never, the guys made the playoffs once. So again, okay. I'm just saying, like everybody's talking like this is, there's some certain. There are some circumstances involved in the fact he'll make. I don't disagree, but everybody's talking about De Aaron Fox like he's a superstar. The guys made one all-star. The guys made one all-star team, and he's a sub-35% three-point shooter. Who average is 27 and seven. on decent efficiency. And frankly, by the time he's into the midway through that contract, I don't think he'll be their second best player. I think Stefan Castle is going to end up being their second best player. Well, he might be. And they might get somebody else because they're going to

have tradable contracts and more picks. Well, and that to me is the big takeaway, is that their juiciest assets, especially in the short term, are still available. And so that's where I think whatever questions I have about Fox, it's definitely a big win. for them because they kept most of their powder. And again, like, I just keep going back to the Bulls. The Bulls get involved here really helped the Spurs out. And I don't really see what the point was. Well, that's a good point.

Now, I will say this. Talk to one guy today who said, listen, he's a Western Conference guy. He goes, thank God that the Spurs didn't get Luca because they could have put together a great package. And Luca and Wembe would have been devastating. So, and that was never going to happen, and we're going to talk about that. Well, heck, maybe they still could. We are absolutely going to get into that. All right.

We can table that discussion for now, but we're going to get into that. We're going to talk to Ramona Shelburne about the Lakers, and we'll be right back. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. All right, right now let's check out today's magic moments brought to you by State Farm. Joining us from just across the mountain range, I don't know, what's the proper through the past. Santa Monica Mountains. Yeah, over the, over the past. Over to the pass.

In the San Fernando Valley, our favorite valley, our favorite valley girl, Ramona Shelburne. I always have to do the like, you know. Yeah. So, Ramona, this has been quite a 24 hours in Los Angeles Lakers basketball. Yeah. You know, there's just this incredible history of players coming to the Lakers mid-career, whether it's Wilts Chamberlain, Kareem Abdul-Jabbar, Shaquille O'Neal, LeBron James, Powell Gasol, Elgin Baylor, and now Luca Donchich.

And it's an absolutely, so it's historic. I don't know how it'll, I don't know if it'll end up like that with a statue outside crypto. But it's a continuation of history. And it's one of the reasons why there's Lakers exceptionalism in the world because the Lakers do seem to be able to pull this off over the decades. You know how fans on Twitter, whenever there's a great young player, Laker fans like to take their face and put a Laker jersey on them. And everybody else hates them for it, right?

Like, Victor comes into the league and they put a Laker jersey on him. And Luca comes into like, put a Laker jersey. How are we going to get Luca? How are we going to? Right. And I laugh. And yet. And yet.

And yet they pull it off. They do it. Like, this is not a deal that they necessarily sought out even. This is, it came to them. Rob Polinka and Nico Harrison had coffee across the street from the, from the game a couple weeks ago in Dallas and Nico Harrison threw it out there as a hey would you ever do this and Rob kind of thought he was kidding at first

but then he wasn't kidding. Yes, we would trade for Luca. Thank you. Yeah, yeah. I mean, and I think it's, you know, they had to get there obviously and they had to keep it quiet and I think that's one part I want to talk about a lot is how everybody kept it quiet and also why everybody kept it quiet

because I think there is a lot of history here that we have to go back through in terms of trades that happened and didn't happen and lessons that everybody involved learned from those traits. Let's start with Chris Paul in 2011. Okay, you and I go back. Chris Paul is traded to the Lakers. It breaks right as the Board of Governors is meeting in New York to ratify a CBA, which is intended to stop exactly this kind of a situation. Jeannie Bus is the Lakers representative because her father was having surgery at the time. He had a cancer diagnosis. He was having a surgery. He was in the hospital. Jim Bus, Mitch Cupchecker getting this trade together. There's a trade call. It got that far.

And the details start to leak out. And every owner in New York who had a voice and a means to use it was livid, furious. and went straight to David Stern, B-line, and tried to break this up. And I've talked to Jeannie at length about this over the years of how timing and when the leak came out and when people knew, factored into that trade being nullified by David Stern. And a lot of this was just her and her brother

were not on the same page. They were not communicating. They were not in sync and in tandem strategically. And I think that's how, trades like this of this magnitude get done. Nobody saw that Chris Paul trade coming, right? Do you remember where you were when you saw that? I do. I was in Miami.

And remember, Chris was the one he came out of the lockout and asked for the trade. So he asked for the trade. Yeah. And, you know, and by the way, it wasn't really a good trade. I don't think they did necessarily did a better trade with the Clippers, but it was not a good trade. No. But it gets, you know, okay, so that's trade number one.

Trade number two is when they trade for AD the first time. It was an absolute circus. It ruined the second half of that season. All those guys were trying to play and they heard their name in trade talks. They didn't actually make the trade during the season, but he was dancing around it. Yeah. Yeah. And it ruined Anthony Davis's exit from New Orleans.

Remember, they sat him at the end there and he wore the shirt. That's all folks. Yeah. That's all folks. Which it was. I mean, you know, it was all. Yeah, it was all. And, you know, all those guys on the team.

Brandon Ingram, Lanzo Ball, everybody who ended up being in that trade heard their name and heard Laker fans all over them. And I remember Kobe Bryant at one point stepped into the fray and said, hey, listen, this is for Anthony Davis. You got to get over yourself. Like, don't take this so pretty. But this went on for months.

And Magic Johnson was at the center of it. And then when he abruptly resigned, Rob Blinken ends up making this trade. Right. over the summer, and people forget this part, but it was after they hired Frank Vogel to be their head coach. Remember that? He had a press conference, and they hadn't done the AD training.

Well, the thing about the Vogel press conference was Magic had come on to first take and let up called Rob, I think he called him a backstabber. Yeah. There's something like that. And here they're introducing Frank Vogel as head coach. And, you know, I remember, like, I think there was McManneman who asked a question. Frank, congratulations on the judge. Welcome to Los Angeles.

Rob, what about being called a backstabber? I seriously think the question went like that. I think at one point, a couple of us did ask Frank a question. But it was at least 10, 15 questions in. You know, hey, coach. There's this amazing moment. Think of this young roster. There's this amazing moment in that interview with Stephen A,

where I think Stephen A asks him. Was there anybody else who you're accusing of backstabbing you in the Laker organization? and Magic goes, no, just Rob. It's just like this amazing, amazing moment. Oh, my God. Yeah, and also, and, and, and, and not to go all the way down the lake or rabbit hole, but this is following a dinner where, you know, Magic had abruptly resigned. And then there was a dinner between Magic, Jeannie Bus, and Lon Rosen, who was Magic's

longtime agent. He also works with the Dodgers now. And I think Linda Rambus was there as well. Maybe Kurt was there. And they had a dinner. and they basically said, hey, is there anything else we need to know? Because like when magic stepped down, like when you step down, there were some stories that came out. And if you, you got to say it, say it now.

Speak your peace. And he goes, nope, I'm good. And then a week or two later, he went on first take and said all that. So that was not to go all the way down, but the rabbit hole. But it is instructive because when you get to a trade of this magnitude, one, which gets nullified by the commissioner because they don't have their act together in terms of, when it's going to be completed and how that's going to be. Like, if Jeannie would have been consulted at that point, she would have said, you got to wait till the CBA passes and everyone's out of New York.

Like, hold it a day. You got to hold this back. But there's no communication. There's no coordination. And so. Right. I mean, they ended up in court against each other, and Jim.

So it's not, you know. Not that shocking. Okay. So then there's that. And then the next one is the trade where Anthony, it was a circle. It was an absolute circus. Now, let's also go to trade number three, which is something you and I've talked about a lot on this pod and continues to be relevant now, especially in light of this trade,

which is the wild pursuit of LeBron James by the Golden State Warriors last year, where owner-to-owner conversations between Joe Lekov and Jeannie Buss, there's some level of interest on both sides. And instead of cashing out the details of a trade and kind of getting a trade package and going to LeBron late, they go to Rich Paul and said, is this something L.J. would want to do? And Rich says no. And the trade dies on the vine there. Even though, from what I understand, LeBron had had conversations with other people, Draymond Green, there's a prominent businessman in Silicon Valley, had been involved there. And I think there was some indication that he was at least intrigued by this.

And they shut it down. Yeah, the Warriors don't make the call unless they think Brown's going to, at the time LeBron did not have a no trade clause. He does now. Correct. That's a different. So what is different about this trade? They never went to any of the agents or players involved. No one got to say yes or no. No one got any feedback. Because if you get anybody else know, if you let anyone else involved, the trade falls apart. The trade can be said no. If they go to Luca Donchitz and says, hey, you want to go to be traded to the Lakers? I mean, I don't know what he says. I think he's, if you're going to trade me, I guess this is a good spot. but, you know, I don't think he wanted to be traded from Dallas.

And this is where you are. If you go to Rich Paul and Anthony Davis, hey, how does LeBron, how do LeBron and AD feel about this trade? Does this get out of the starting blocks? I don't think so. And so I think the lessons learned from all of these situations, all of these trades that did happen or didn't happen, are how we get to where Nico Harrison,

Rob Polinka, Patrick Dumont and Jeannie Boss are a part of the very small. I guess those four would be a square, but I think there was a circle. There was probably a few others that were privy to these talks. But it wasn't a large circle at all. And it held for several weeks as these conversations were taking place. Remarkable. Remarkable on a lot of fronts. You know, the thing I would say is, you know, a big thing on this pod is actions over words.

and the action here Anthony Davis waives his trade kicker $6 million that action indicates to me he approves the trade approves of the trade he's cool with it

you know on some level maybe he's not thrilled to be leaving L.A. where he's built a life and he's got a family He's got a show coming out later this month I know I'm really interested in that show it's like a redux of the Austin Coucher Punk show

Yeah and it's It's funny because on social media last night, everyone was like, wait, are we sure this isn't just part of the show? Good, that's good. Where he jumps out and says, surprise, we're really getting traded to Dallas. They literally just started the promotion for it, right? Oh, yeah. And by the way, Jeannie Bus has a show coming out on Netflix, which is it's not her, but it's based on her. Okay.

And I mean, that's coming out in the middle of this month as well. I think the premiere is on February 13th. I mean, this, like, it is, you talk about life imitating art. Oh, my gosh. Right. So, and then you've got LeBron, McManneman reported today that LeBron, like, he's like, don't, don't call. I'm not, you know, I'm not waving my no trade clause.

So don't call. So. Okay, sure. Nobody's going to call then. Sure. Okay. Well, but that action, it's an action. Yeah.

Leads me to believe that he's cool with this. Like, again, I'm not saying. he's turning handsprings and like saying this is perfect exactly what I've always dreamed of. But, you know, if he's, if he was upset, I'm not sure that he'd be dissuading people. So like, you know, um, actions over words, whatever they may get said. Um, so, uh, from the Lakers perspective, Ramona, this is a, this is kind of obvious, but it's a key moment. Everything they've done since 2018 has been, has been, has been, you know, set on number 23.

It's all been about LeBron, and rightfully so. Even in these later a couple years where, you know, they've theoretically built a team more around AD, that's not the case. LeBron is the lead dog. And that's no longer true, right? Like now number 77,

all moves are about, and that's what the Lakers released today. Rob Polinka's comments essentially said this. You know, we're going to put a roster around him. We're going to, you know, build around him. LeBron's name wasn't in the release. Not that it would have to be, but sometimes

you see that, you know, we'll build around. So like, and that doesn't mean LeBron's done. Like, you know, he's, he just had a triple double. He's had a brilliant game at the garden. And I think, I don't think the roster is in good shape right now, but it, it

can get there, especially if you give them the rest of this week and then next summer. But like, this is, this is a transition. Like, the, the center of the Lakers universe has shifted. And it needed to. Like, it's not controversial. It's a, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a great, it's a beautiful moment.

If you're going to shift it, shift it to a guy who's potentially a, you know, a top 75, you know, top 75 all time player. So, I mean, but that's, but that's happened. This is now Luca Donchich's team, right? Yeah, it is. And I mean, it's, it's kind of, this is where we have to go back to Laker history again, all right? Kobe Bryant is winding down his career. And the Chris Paul trade was supposed to be that. Taun handoff. Okay, 2011. They trade for Chris Paul and that gets undone. Chris Paul was 25 at the time.

He was going to be the successor to Kobe. That's what that trade was. Who else was 25? Luca. Yeah. I mean, and these things are not coincidences. Who was Kobe's agent at the time of this trade? Rob Polinka. Who was his Nike rep? Nico Harrison. They traveled the world together. And I think that trade didn't end up having. Later on, they end up trading for Dwight Howard. I think that what the Lakers hope, what everybody in L.A. has to hope now, is that Luca has the same kind of wake-up moment from this trade and all the bad stuff that's coming out about him and his conditioning, his habits, etc.,

from Dallas and from those people who work closely with him there, and has the same kind of wake-up moment Yokic did a couple years ago. I think he was similar. play his way into shape, used to have back injuries, soft tissue injuries, he wasn't as reliable. And there was a particular series against the Portland Trailblazers where

he ran out of gas. Like it was game seven. They had a back and forth series. He disputed it. He would say, I'm not out of shape. I'm not running out of gas. He did. You know, I mean, actions over words. He changes conditioning. Oh, totally. And now he's one of the most incredible, incredibly

conditioned athletes out there. He's not in as good as shape as he was like two, three years ago, but he's still obviously in a much better condition than he was at the start of his career. That's right. And I think he, it's really more about he started taking that part of being an NBA basketball player very seriously because he saw it was affecting his ability to win and his ability to break through. And he was, he was about the same age, Luca is now. I think he was maybe even a little older. So this sometimes takes some time for people to really learn. Like, I mean, Kobe he wasn't always a fitness fiend or a diet guy or probably LeBron wasn't either.

I mean, Kobe used to talk about eating pizza and cheeseburgers and stuff earlier in his career. Like, you know, time comes for us all, right? When we have to shape up. And I think maybe Luca's there, maybe not, but that's what the Lakers have to hope for. Yeah, and like, look, I think the interesting thing, one of the big things that, so Nico Harrison had a press conference and I'm going to talk to McMahon about that, but. today in Cleveland. And he used some weird language about Lucas' contract. He's like there was

some details of Lucas contract. What that was code for is we didn't want to pay him $350. They were worried about paying him $70 million a year. And normally when you have a Supermax player who's supermax eligible, you just want him to take the full contract. And, you know, okay, if he gets injured because, you know, he gets a little older, then, you know, okay. But, you know, the Lakers are, I assume, going to make that investment. I assume that, you know, it won't be as much money, by the way, because it won't be the supermax, but it's still going to be, you know, over $250 million. So I assume that the Lakers are going to be making that investment this summer.

And I would hope, well, I shouldn't say I hope, but I would assume that, Luca is going to sign it. All right, we're out of time, Mo Mo. But thank you for providing this history because I think it's important. And I look forward to more of your coverage the rest of this week as, you know, as Luca puts on the uniform for the first time. First domino. First domino. There may be more. It was a big one. It was a big one. All right. Thanks, Moma. We'll talk to you soon. Thanks, Brian. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. The Tims are back.

Thanks to Ramona. McMahon, you went to a press conference today with Nico Harrison and Jason Kidd. They took questions. I respect Nico Harrison being in Cleveland and being in there and taking questions. The Lakers haven't yet. We'll see if they do. Your takeaways from that discussion. Yeah.

And listen, it's a tough spot because they just made a tremendously unpopular trade. I mean, there were people protesting in front of the American Airlines Center in Dallas. People brought a casket. There was a casket in front of. of the arena. That was incredible. Like, you could not have made a more unpopular trade. You know, the Mavericks fan base, you know, they're protesting right by the Dirk statue. They thought that there was going to be a Luca statue nearby one day. You know, you feel like, hey, we get 21 years from this guy. Luca wasn't going to the last 21 years, but you're hoping we, you get 15 good

ones out of, great ones out of him. And I get, like, I get the Mavs fan. And I get the Mavs fan. just anger because this is a 25-year-old generational talent. This is a historic talent at 25 years old that you just traded. And the criticism that I'm hearing around the league is more, not that they got out of the look of business, because there frankly is some understanding of the reasoning about around the league. It's more so that they didn't maximize the return. but for the Mavs, fans, it's just flat out how could you possibly want to get out of the Luca business?

We are fresh off watching this guy, lead the league in scoring, averaging basically a triple double, and then lead this team to the finals. So it's going to be a tremendously unpopular trade. And Nico, I think, went up there uncomfortable and tried to kind of ease with humor. And the humor, I don't think it landed real well. I mean, talking about like going and having a laugh with Rob Galenka and doing the trade is not a great look. And also the line he had to end your story where he says, hey, look, we're looking at this win now and in the future. And by the future, I mean, three or four years from now, not 10 years from now, but by 10 years from now, we'll be buried and maybe we'll have buried ourselves.

Yeah, you might have buried yourself by making this trade, Nico. Like, I mean, it's just not a good look at all. And it just reflects on, it reflects badly on the process that went into the trade from start to finish, where whatever your opinion of the decision to trade Luca Dachich, at a minimum, if you're doing this trade with the Lakers, you got to get the two picks from the Lakers at a bare minimum. Yeah. And to come out of this without the two picks, without having really done any. you know, canvassing of the value.

Yeah, I mean, he didn't even, he was just straight. He's like, yeah, I negotiated with one team. He just flat out said it. And, you know, Nico's thing was they didn't want a circus, they didn't want a saga. They just wanted to get this done as quietly as possible, drop the bomb and move on. Of course, you're getting a circus and you're getting a saga. If you're going to trade Luca, if you're going to do this, you have to do it in 18 months after he's on the Supermax and he's on a five-year extension and you can trade him wherever you want. Or even if you do it now, even if you do

it now. This is, you know, when I talk to people around the league, again, there was a lot of, there were several people who were like, hey, you know, I can't want to get out of Luca business. You know, a team knows their player better than anybody else. And frankly, like the concerns about the condition and all this is, none of that stuff is new. That's, you know, been a thing. it's just part of the deal. So is the historic production, by the way. But again, there's understanding of that, but you've got to maximize the return,

and you can't do that talking to one team. Now, the Maverick's explanation is they were going to go get Anthony Davis. They were going to go get an all-MBA player who's also an all-defense player, who they feel like fits their time frame. And we'll get in the time frame here in a little bit, because that's a very interesting statement. But again, like, so you get the Lakers' best offer. And at that point, you got to shop it.

Hey, the Houston Rockets certainly aren't motivated to do anything. They've made that very clear. They also didn't think Luca Donchitz was going to be available. I think if you call Houston, hey, you know, what if you ask for Amin Thompson and four picks? Maybe it's outpair and Shungun and four picks. A young All-Star and four picks. You could call San Antonio with all the, look what they gave up for Fox. You're probably getting a lot more than that for Luca.

You know, hey, Utah, you're desperate to find a star. You've got a ton of picks. Let's talk there. You've got to call it. Hey, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma City is the one I think would not have engaged, but make them tell you no. I think Bon Tempts is what he said is very true, though. like when they when the trailblazers did the Lillard trade Lillard didn't want to go to I mean it wasn't like he was against Milwaukee

he wanted to go to Miami you know yeah but because it was under long-term contract he didn't have a choice with Donovan Mitchell same with Rudy Gobert again if you have years on the deal you have the ability like that Utah isn't trading for Luca Donchich with a year and a half left on his deal if he's got five years left on his deal then anybody's in play you got the Brooklyn Nets with 10,000 draft picks But Houston might, San Antonio might.

I understand that, McMahon, but the point is, if you're going to do this, the proper way to do it is to sign them to the extension, have them on the long-term contract, and then do it. If you're doing it now and the guy's got a year and a half left on his deal and it gets out that you're shopping them around, then it becomes the Deerrin Fox situation. It becomes, I'm only going to go to X place. And then your value gets to. driven down even further. So if you're going to do it this way now, you kind of have to

identify a team or two, talk to them, not talk to anybody else and do it. The problem is doing it at all because this is not the time to do it. And trading for a guy six years older is not the guy to be doing it for. And I have actually had, like I had a GM in the West tell me, basically, hey, there's a credible case to be made that the Mavericks did get better right now. And again, A lot of that's based on Lucas' relative struggles this season, what's going to look like when he gets back, you know, their defensive issues. He said, they can credibly make a case they got better right now, but they can't make a case that they maximize the return.

And they absolutely shortened the window. And again, the fear of the fear of the Supermax was a massive factor, just like the fear of Cat Supermax kick. And it was a massive factor in him getting shipped to New York. But this is where this is so dumb. And this is where this line of thinking from them is frankly patently insane. If they had signed Luca Dachis to the Supermax, which I think my reporting, I think you're reporting is that Luca was preparing to sign the thing this summer. Yes, that was the anticipation for certain on his side.

If they had Luca Dachic signed to a Supermax, his trade value wasn't going down. I agree with that. They were, they were terrified of a Supermax commitment. They were terrified of being stuck like Philly with Embedde right now. But that's, but that's, but I'm just telling you, I understand, but that's not a, that's not a rational argument. The guy's 25. I'm just, I'm explaining. I'm just, I'm explaining.

Well, he's 25 and. But McMahon, you and I both know, this isn't Joal Embed. He doesn't have the chronic, he doesn't have the chronic knee issues. The calf is very concerning. The conditioning is very concerning. Again, you're talking, I personally, I could not have pulled the trigger. on trading that type of talent before he hits the prime meters. I couldn't have done it.

I'm explaining to you what their thought process was. Let me ask you this. What are the Mavericks do now? I certainly don't think that Nico Harrison left his cell phone charger at home. I mean, they've got one guy who can dribble on the roster. They got to get more guards this week. Yeah. Well, too.

Dinwiddie is the second. I mean, we can talk about... There's a guy on a minimum. We can talk about Dante X and Jaden Hardy, but I hear you. I was actually shocked. I was talking to another general manager today, and they made the statement, and it was like confidently that Kyrie right now is a better player than Luca.

And that took... I was taken aback by that. And again, I think Kyrie's an incredible talent, but Luca just led the league and... I do not believe that. Yeah, Luca just led the league and scored and basically average a triple doubles. I mean...

Yeah, the idea that Kyrie's a better player than him is also patently insane. Yeah. But... There's a lot of patently insane things being said about this trade. Bond Temps is in prime form right now. Bond Temps is the patent office over here. The USWB patent office.

Listen. But no, you know... Kyrie's had a great year. I thought he was the biggest snob. on the All-Star teams in either conference, not making it. I know they're, you know, for other, I thought he should have clearly been the first guard or second guard that didn't start on the team, but he's not better than Luca. And we'll see what Kyrie says.

He didn't play today, so I guess he didn't speak to the media. But obviously at some point. He didn't speak to the media today. And again, I'm not making a big thing out of that. He didn't play. It's the norm for a guy who doesn't play, not to speak to the media. This was not a normal situation. True.

But he didn't speak to the media. I am certainly, like, listen, he'll talk in Philly. Bond Timps will be there. I'm sure just pelting him. So I'm curious to, I, like I. Listen, Kyrie has been nothing but a pro with the media for last. No, Kyrie's been phenomenal. Ever since, again, I'll say it again, ever since he's been to Dallas, like, he's been

phenomenal as a leader for that team. He has got to deal with in the locker room. I'm not just, I'm not taking a position against anything here. but when the Mavericks did the Kyrie Irving trade, I thought it was a mistake. I did too, and it has not been. I told Nico as much to his face, and Nico had a vision and knew the pieces,

you know, had a relationship with Kyrie, and made an educated gamble, and it has hit huge. And I have told Nico to his face, as I'm sure other people have, you got it right. You made it, you made it, you made a calculated risk there and it paid off.

So I have to acknowledge, I have to acknowledge that he's done this before. Yeah, and I didn't love, and again, if we're being real honest, our opinions are heavily influenced by the people who evaluate talent for a living, like the scouts, the executives that we're talking to, the PJ Washington trade was not well received throughout the league. Well, the guy was going to trade two first-round picks for Kyle Cousin. His judgment and value assessment in trades has been poor. Okay. The PJ Washington deal didn't get great immediate feedback.

Neither did the game, Daniel Gaffer deal. Both those guys played significant roles in a finals run. Correct. This is a hell of a heat check, though, boys. Yeah, I mean, this is going to define his career. There's a chance he's fired in the next 12 to 18 months, and it goes down as one of the worst traits in the history of the league. There is a chance where him shorting Luca,

like we talked about on the emergency pod, works out and he looks like some level of genius for doing it. And it'll be seen as a thing. But one way or the other, this trade is defining his career. Because it ain't a trade that's going to just kind of float away. Either it's going to lead to great things or it's going to lead to infamy, A or B. I couldn't have put it better myself. All right.

We got a lot to save up our energy with. Bontem's got to get back to New York. and McMahon and I got to go to bed. Actually, I'm going to meet Bobby. I'm going to meet Bobby Marks to get smarter. So Bobby will be on Tuesdays or Wednesday's podcast. I'm going to get some sleep to get smarter because two hours of sleep ain't real intelligent. Bad sleep up day, baby.

Yeah. Thanks for watching The Hoop Collective presented by State Farm. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you to Jackson. Our producer, thank you for watching and listening. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.