Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Giannis & Bucks At Odds Again & Wemby Makes Claim For MVP + Evaluating Tatum

Episode Date: March 25, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to discuss the continuing drama between the Bucks and Giannis including the NBPA statement in support of Giannis playing. Plus, will there be a 65-game exemption for Cade Cunningham? Then, we break down if Victor Wembanyama’s speech has any chance to influence MVP voters and if he has a legitimate case for the trophy. Finally, how has Jayson Tatum’s return to Boston impacted the team? Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing on Tuesday evening. Joining us from Madison Square Garden sitting in the Mike Brown seat.

But I actually, you know, he kind of, with that face he's got on there, he looks like Tom Tibodeau. It's Timbottops. Hello, everybody. The Pelicans and Knicks game is going on right now as we tape this. So we'll see what happens there. The Knicks are going for seven in a row. Joining us from down the street here in Los Angeles is Ban McKeever. man.

Howdy, partners. It was a pleasure to get dinner with the Wendy last night, even though we may split the check, bond temps. Well, we'll see it happens tonight. That is some disappointing behavior. Disappointing behavior. By the way, today, McMahon and I were on NBA today. And during one of the blocks of the show, McMahon and I were off.

I believe it was about WNBA. It was a WMBA segment. Correct. So we're also miced up and, you know, Mosa is. doing an interview. What? This was during the commercial break. Just go on. You can continue, but I want that fact out now.

Okay, fine. Was there in the commercial break? Was I saying it differently? You were acting as if it was mid-show. Go on. Anyway, we stay wired up, even though we're not on the air, right? So, Bontemp's, we're sitting there in the break, and all of a sudden we start hearing water running and the sound of paper towels being dispensed. The producer, Jaron, goes,

I think we're hearing McMahon in the bathroom. It was like, we're out of naked gun. Well done, man. Hey, it was a fastball, not a curveball. Everybody relaxed. Anyway. Okay, speaking of fastballs, the Players Union issued a few edicts on Tuesday.

Little brushback pitch. Yeah. Which, you know, this doesn't happen often, Bontems. So the first one was in relation to Janice Tenacumpo. And as was

been out there reported over the last few days, Janus, he's coming back, he's dealing with the knee injury right now. The Bucks have about 10 or 11 games left. And Janus would like to play

when he's healthy and the Bucks do not want him to play. And there was a statement made by the Players Association. Now, part of this statement is about tanking, and I'm going to ignore those things about the tanking because we don't talk about tanking here.

However, this part is relevant. Quote, the player participation policy was designed by the league to hold teams accountable and ensure that when an all-star, like Janice Zinacupo is healthy and ready to play, he is on the court. Unfortunately, anti-tanking policies are only as effective in there as their enforcement.

Fans, broadcast partners, and the integrity of the game will continue to suffer as long as ownership goes unchecked. Bontemps, as long as ownership goes unchecked, that is an interesting word, ownership. This, to me, is a sign of a player and a team, not only not on the same page, but not communicating, because they are now communicating through the lawyers. And I don't think this is a good sign in any way, shape, or form. And I do not think that this season has been an exemplary.

your way of handling business by the Bucks organization, including Mr. Attenacumpo. Yeah, I mean, I don't really have a lot else to add. I mean, what has changed about the situation in months? Not really anything, right? There's been a lack of communication. There's been a lack of mutual trust, I would say. There's been a lack of organizational alignment. I mean, it's just a complete mess. And it's been a complete mess for months and months and months and, you know, I don't think that's going to change in the next three weeks. You know, I would say to Janice, I think he should take the next three weeks and not play. This is a guy who's had, I think, four different calf strains over the last year and a half for two years.

You should get his body right. But part of the problem here is I think the Bucks have not really had an ability to sit down with Janus and have Frank productive conversations with him for an extended period now. And I think that's part of why the situation is where it is. Like, if you sit down with Janus today and say, listen, the future pretty clearly should be for us to shake hands in the summertime and to send you to another place where you have a chance to win and we can turn the page under what's been an incredible run with usually the best player we've ever had here in Milwaukee.

And we'll celebrate you then. We'll celebrate you after that. And there'll be a statue and there'll be a jersey in the rafters. and you brought us our first title in 50 years. It was an incredible thing. Putting up a 50 piece in this siding game at home. It was one of the great finals, close-out games we've seen in a very long time. And all that will be celebrated.

But right now, we're in a position where we're trying to maximize our future over the next three weeks. And we need to maximize your future over the next three weeks. And I think the ultimate problem with everything that's gone on in Milwaukee for months now is an inability to have that kind of conversation. and that's why statements are being made. That's why this thing has been so messy. And it's why I think I speak for everybody when we're all just pretty tired of it. Like it's just the story is beyond played out and the team isn't going anywhere.

And, you know, I think sometimes there is a bit of a rush for people to try to get guys out of town and to change teams and go somewhere new. But the way this thing has played out, I think it's going to be best for everybody. to just start fresh next season with Janus somewhere else and a whole bunch of assets coming back to the bucks for them to start a new era of their franchise. I mean, this has been a saga that's played out for over eight years, right? Like, literally, you go back to when the Mavericks drafted Luka, the last pick of that draft, they took Costa San An Anacupo

because they were among these several teams trying to line up to land Janus and free agency when he left Milwaukee. Now, to the Bucs credit, that time with the Drew Holiday trade and on multiple other occasions, they were able to make moves to get Yonis to extend, get Yonis to commit. You know, and the Drew Holiday move in particular was a move that was able to bump them into being a real championship, not just contender, but a championship team. So, but there's no more moves to make that are going to make the Bucks a championship team. There's no more moves to make that are going to make the bucks relevant in terms of like anything right now in the NBA. They're not a good team.

They are way underwater in terms of assets. They still not only owe Damien Liller to a ton of money after stretching and waiving him, but they owe Portland all the draft capital for that deal. They have to finally trade Yannis, not because he wants out, which obviously he does. he just isn't willing to come to them and say that. They have to trade them because they're in purgatory right now. Their only chance to dig out is to get real value for him, which means it is in their best interest to shut Yannis down for the season, not to tank, to protect him from catastrophic injury,

which is clearly the concern with these repeated calf strains. The guy needs some real significant time off to rest and fully recover and to, if not eliminate the risk, at least really drop the risk. But like the tanking thing, that's a completely disingenuous mention of tanking because it's a hot button issue. Because really, if the bucks tanked the rest of the season, there's barely any benefit. Oh, whoa. Instead of being 10th, they'll be 9th. They're tied right now for 9th with the Bulls.

The team they would catch possibly would be the Pelicans, which, by the way, the bucks get the worst of those two picks anyway. And let me just also add, the bucks stink with Yannis on the course. The Bucks are a bad team. They've lost 9 and 12 with Yannis on the floor. It's not like, oh, my gosh, if Yonis came back, the Bucks won a bunch of games. No, they wouldn't. It's a bad team that needs to move on despite, and they're bad despite the fact that they've got an all-time grade. He needs to move on.

They need to move on. And we can talk again about the Bucks when they become relevant in like 2032. Last week, Ramona Shelburne published a story where she interviewed Bucks, Governor West Edens. where he said, quote, Janus is going into the last year of his contract, so one of two things will happen. Either he will be extended or he'll be traded. The likelihood that you'll let him play out the last year, we can't afford that. It's not consistent with what's good for the organization. That's not a Janus issue.

That's any player that's in their last year of their contract. Especially a max player. This is an elementary statement. It's not like a hot take or whatever. it's how any team would treat this. But Bontemps, what struck me about that quote, which I'll bring, come back to it now, that Yannis is communicating with the Bucks

through the players union, wouldn't they have a good idea whether Yonis was going to extend or not? Like, they would, you know, like, you just ask him, are you going to extend? Well, and I think that, that's, again, I think it goes back to the fundamental disconnect that existed here for quite a while.

There's just not been a lot of communication, I think, between Yonis, the bucks. And I think that's where, you know, going into this off season, I think that's what has to start to change. Like, they've got to sit down and it probably should start today. Like, should sit down and have real honest conversations about where this thing is going and what they're doing and what the plan is. Because like I said, the best thing for Janus is to get himself healthy. I want to see Janus out on the court doing awesome stuff and playing at the highest level, which he showed this year when he was on the court again, he's still one of the five best

players on the planet. He's still an unstoppable force with the ball and in transition. He still is a guy who can make game changing plays on the defensive end. He's still a guy that can be a massively important piece of a championship level team in the league. But that situation is not going to be in Milwaukee.

It's not going to be in the final 10 games of the season when they have no chance to do anything. Right. And I also think like yeah, it stinks in general that the tanking conversation includes things like it's not good for the bucks to have a guy like Janus play in a vacuum vacuum. Like, yeah, that's true. But right now, for where the Bucks are at, the goal for

everybody involved should be for Yannis to be 1,000% healthy going into the offseason. And it should be for the Bucks to be able to start to reorient this franchise about the next era of its existence. Because the bottom line is they've been on borrow time in the last couple of years trying to drag this thing out. And as Bickman laid out before, there's just no path to this team having a chance to be competitive in the East, not right now and not as we move forward with some of these young teams continuing to get better. And it's just time for everybody to move on.

And again, that conversation about that has to start now and it has to start with, you know, like you said, go right back to what West Eden said last week, get an answer to that question and then move forward. You know, the only thing I would say is why do you need an answer that question? Because I don't think extending Janus is in the Bucs Best interest. So you can do what? Be expensive and mediocre?

Well, listen, if Yonis Seneca Kupo announced, I want to spend my whole career in Milwaukee, I would understand if the Milwaukee Bucks said, okay, we're going to have Yonis Sennikoupo spend his entire career in Milwaukee, we'll try to be as competitive as possible. I don't think that would be a bad thing for Janus or the NBA or the Bucks. I think to your point, though, McMahon, everybody's been dancing around the idea that Yonis is not thrilled to be in Milwaukee for a long time. And that is where it's a problem. If I honest, was going to stand up and say, hey, listen, I'm going to be in Milwaukee, my whole career. I'm happy, like Dirk did, basically.

Like, it was clear, Dirk, similar careers, right? Won a title. It's not like he has to go try to chase a ring somewhere because he hasn't done that. If he just stood up and said, hey, listen, I love my time in Milwaukee. I want to spend my whole career with one team. I want to try to be as competitive as we possibly can be. You know, let's just go forward and try to be competitive and see what we can do. That would at least be a clear direction for the franchise to go forward.

I get all that. But we're not hearing that. I just, it's more to me about what the lack of communication shows about the underlying situation there. That's what I'm taking away from today. Yes, I agree. Do you think Romano will remember her conversation with the West Edians? I know those tend to be forgettable, according to some folks. The reference that McMahon is making there is that at the beginning of the season,

Eden said he had this very crucial conversation with Janus last spring after the season. And then when Yaz was asked about it, he said he had no recollection. So, all right. The union made a second statement on Tuesday, unusual to get two statements in a day. This one is wrote in reference to Cade Cunningham. Cade Cunningham's potential ineligibility for postseason awards after a career-defining season is a clear indictment of the 65 game role. And yet another example of why it must be abolished a reform to create an exception for significant injuries. It went on, but I'm going to cut it short.

Also, Jeff Schwartz gave the following quote. Jeff Schwartz is a power agent who represents Cade. This is said to Shams. Cade has delivered a first team all NBA season. If he falls short of an arbitrary game's played threshold due to a legitimate injury, it should not disqualify him from recognition he has clearly earned over the course of the season, et cetera, et cetera. He finishes with an exception needs to be made.

Okay. I just want to say a couple of things here. I am bummed that Cade potentially will miss out on these awards. I don't think he's going to play in the regular season. He technically... Seems very obvious he's not going to play. Yeah. Let's just be honest.

These statements would not be coming out if Cade was going to play. Correct. He has played 61 games. However, the 61 game, he played four minutes. I don't know if they would count that because that's the threshold. I can tell you, they would not count it. He's 60 games played for awards. So there is a specification in the CBA where if you suffer a season-ending injury

and have played 62 games, you could qualify for the postseason awards. Yeah. I don't, he doesn't qualify. So, I mean, that's the exception that could be made, I guess. Well, that is, I mean, the thing about this that I would say is silly is, one, the Players Association collectively bargained this rule with the NPA. It's several years ago in the last CBA.

So they agreed to the rules. Two, there is literally a carve out in the rules for an injury. like this. It's if you play 62 games and this happens, if Cade had played in two more games, he would have been eligible for awards. Now, I agree with you. It's very unfortunate that Cade has had this tremendous season and is going to miss out on getting on to one of the all-NBA teams and to be on MVP ballots because he would have been on MVP ballots and he would have either been the top of the second team or a first team all-MBA player. He's had a phenomenal season. But the rule exists because the NBA put the rule in with the PA's approval several years

go. And no, they're not going to create an exception for it, just like they didn't create an exception for it to give Victor defense player the year last year, just like they're not going to give an exception if Nicole Yokich misses two more games and falls below 65 games. Like, the rule exists. And like, we could sit here and say it's dumb that we have to decide, we get it decided for us who we can vote for, as opposed to being able to decide if we're going to vote for Cade or not. But the rule is what it is. And the idea that you're just going to arbitrarily create a rule because Cade had an unfortunate change in the rule because Cade had an unfortunate injury.

It's just not how reality works. This unfortunately is completely out of the spirit of the rules. Spirit of the rules that load management had become such a issue for the league and a public relations issue, a, honestly, a disservice to fans issue. This is not a load management issue with Cade clearly. Also, like when you're the primary reason that your team is the number one

seed in the Eastern Conference. Like this, it's a tough pill to swallow. Under the rule, though, there's, like, there's no wiggle room. You know, Mark Folliwell, who's the longtime mass play-by-play guys doing some play-by-play with NBC and Peacock, he's been on a little rampage is too strong. But, you know, he's made the point several times on social media. Hey, the cutoff for league leaders, you know, the scoring title. you know, assist title, rebound

and title, et cetera, is 58 games? Why is it 65 games for awards but 58 games to win a scoring title or whatever? Very simple reason. Because the NBA fought to put this rule in because they wanted star players to play in more games. And guess what? The harsh truth of the

rule and the dirty secret of it is it's working. The rule is working. Guys are playing in more games. That's why it's not changing. It's why it exists. Like, I don't think, I think we'd all agree. I don't think it was a coincidence to Koli Okich came back from this bone bruise Oh no.

After missing 16 games. It's not a, you know, Victor Weniama has played in dozens of games in a row now and hasn't missed any games because he's three or four games away from... Whimby did miss one game against the Nuggets, but they know exactly where he is.

But when he has come out and said he doesn't want to miss any games for the award purpose. That's right. 100%. These guys want, and look, I'm not saying, I'm not talking about whether I think the rule should exist. I've made my points on that in the past.

I think Pete, the media has always done a very good job of deciding where the line is and how much guys have played. I don't think we need a rule to decide that. However, that's why the NBA fought for this rule. They fought for it to be 65 games. They fought to put it in because they wanted to have incentive for guys to be playing the star players to play more. And the star players are playing more.

And it is very unfortunate for Cade. And frankly, I'm really happy that this is not a year ago when Kate qualified for the Supermax. And it would have been extremely unfortunate if something like this happened and it cost him tens of millions of dollars. Like that, I would have really felt bad if that happened. But look, we also saw Tyrese Halliburton two years ago limp through the second half of the season, playing 22 minutes a game and a bunch of games to be eligible to get his own Supermax instead. Oh, by the way, when Wimby came back from his extended absence early the season, his minutes limit was 20.

That was not picked out of the names. The reason why that's the number is because that's the limit they've set for the game to count for towards the 65 games. Speaking of that, you may remember that Kade Cunningham did sign a contract extension a couple of years ago. He did hit the Supermax provision. He made third team all-MBA last year, got a $45 million bonus. So while he wants this because he feels, and he's correct, that he has earned first team all NBA, for sure.

This would be different if he was trying to get that money. I think that would be a different situation, but that money is secure. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Victor Wimbunyama, he controlled the discourse of the NBA on Tuesday because he went on, I mean, he didn't grab the microphone and announce the reasons why he should be MVP. He was asked a question why, what his case was for MVP, but he had answers

ready and he, you know, as we've talked about with Victor, not afraid to extol his own virtue. Is that artfully said enough? Or ruffle some feathers. Extole his own virtue and take a little jab at a team and a franchise and a player

that could be a decade plus long rival of the Spur. Well, it wasn't just him. He definitely is, you know, sort of trolling, I guess you could say, Shegildes-Alexander by saying that they went four-and-one against him during the season. But he also kind of... I mean, is that part trolling? It's truthful. It's truthful.

I mean, that, I mean, I'll just, I'm not... I mean, as I've said many times, Victor is not afraid to be wildly arrogant. in a matter of fact way. I would say that's just being very matter of fact that they won four out of five against the... Like, if you are... If it does get down to a Victor versus Shea one and two, like, yeah, I think an argument in his corner

is they won four out of the five games. Yeah, it's just... It takes you back a little bit to hear a guy be that blunt and pointed out. As I said to somebody last night... West finals might have just gotten a little bit... Even more interesting. As I said to somebody last night,

as the person who has done the straw poll, now for several years. There are all sorts of people who lobby about MVP awards and awards in general. We just, the last segment, we talked about this whole thing with Kate Cunningham. Very rarely do you see someone on camera on the record completely lay out their position. Well, Jaylon Brown did it earlier this year when he's like, I'm the best two-way player in the league. Jalen did that, but that it's rare. Usually this is done in a little more subtle manner. But Victor doesn't do a lot of things subtly, either on the court or off the court. And this is the latest example of that.

I will say this. Don't you think that this will, like, you're not going to do the straw poll for a little bit here. But it would be fascinating if you did the straw poll two days ago and then you did another one today. I don't. I don't. I don't think it's changing. Oh, I don't. I don't.

I don't think Victor giving a postgame speech is changing a lot of votes. I wish you were wrong. I mean, I wish you were right, but I'm afraid you're wrong. You know, like, listen, none of this matters if Wimby's not just absolutely dominating. And he absolutely dominated the Miami 83 years in a complete blowout win. But seriously, like the guy, okay, let's just look at what he says. The most dominant defense player by far, there's no question. The gap between Wimby and the next best defensive player is much more significant than the gap between the best offensive player and number two.

By the way, is he trolling, is he trolling Shea saying She doesn't defend or is he saying that about Luca and Yokic at all? On that one, I think he's, I take that one at face value. Hey, defense is half the game, and I'm, and he's by far the most dominant defensive player. He's trolling everybody because he's better than telling. I don't think he's trolling. I think that's just like, fine, use a different verb. He's stunking on. I'm so valuable defensively that you have to consider that as half of the value.

In reference to the other MVP candidates, that's the undercurrent of what he's saying. Sure, that his value on defense way, basically his case is my value on defense way outweighs the difference in any of these guys value offensively versus mine. And he's, you know, his thing on offense is it's not just scoring points, basically talking about his gravity and some of the other things he does. And then the stuff about we beat the Thunder, four out of five, basically he's a basis sweep, but three times at full strength. That is him saying, hey, Shea's the favorite now. But when we played, I mopped the floor with Shane and the defending champions. And that's him trying to make up for the biggest thing that I think is going to prevent him from winning the award, which is that the Thunder, we'll talk about later, have gone 15 and 1 since the All-Star break with a bunch of guys out and have stayed ahead.

of the 16 and 2 Spurs since the All-Star break have kept this three-game lead and are now very likely to have the best record in the league and the best record in the Western Conference. And as we've said the whole time, if Victor and the Spurs were able to get ahead of the Thunder and finish the season with the best record in the Western Conference, I think there was a very real chance Victor was going to be the MVP of the league. I think if Shea stays ahead and the Thunder win the West, particularly with the amount of injuries the Thunder have had and the season Che has had, I think Che is winning a second straight. And Wimby says...

That's the part where Victor is trying to take out the wind out of being part of Shazard. McMahon speaking. But I agree. Can I say something real quick? Sure. I believe Dr. MVP there said when the before the last drop hole came out, I think Wambayama was 35 to 1 on draft kings. Is that correct?

I believe that was right. And I said at the time that that was a ridiculous line and people should bet it. It was down 18 to 1 now. Rare win. I mean, that's way too high. I still think 18 to 1 is pretty good on draft. I would have him second on my ballot behind Shea. I would have Luca third.

Wimby, you had Joker third, but whatever. But Wimbi said... Wait a second. Wait a second. Put a pin in that for a second. So you have Yokic out of the top three? Yes, because honestly, dude, if we're going to value winning, then it's hard for me to make a case for Joker over Luca.

When Luca's leading the league in score with remarkable efficiency, filling out the box score, holding up frankly pretty well defensively making it plays defensively holding a much better

defensively win horsed what is happening here we've got we've got some some luka pom-poms out here there's no luca pom-poms

I've still got half of Slovenia and certain segments of Los Angeles and Dallas Madamy but no but seriously the wonder boy go buy it but my point is

like if his team's third in the standings, and he's got that kind of statistical case, and Joker's team is, you know, they might end up fourth, but there's significantly, you know, there's a significant gap. And Joker has not played his typical level of basketball since coming back from the injury. So he remains leading the league in rebounding assists. He is a first team, all-N-Ba, no-brainer. He's an absolutely historically dominant player, but we're talking about, you know, we're splitting hairs here.

And I, again, you asked me what my ballot would be. I would have Shea, Wemby, Luca, Joker in that order and fifth at this point. I probably put you in Brown. To this moment, updated Draft King's line. Shea is minus 1,000. Oh, there's been some, okay. Luca plus 1,000. That's 10 to 1.

That's Luke, that's Laker fans. Those odds are poor. Wembe plus 1, so 13 to 1. Joker plus 4,500. Yeah. But so Wimby says... I don't think a bet on Luca or Yokic, especially Luca at that number is a good bet. But Wembe could still...

I still think Shea is going to win, but Wembe could overtake it. They could have a bed 10 days and it could happen. I think right now there is a debate. There should be, even though I think I should lead the race. I'm trying to make sure that at the end of the season, there's no debate. That's what Wimby said. frankly, it's not within his power to make sure there's no debate. Because the only way there's, I think you can make a reasonable case that there's not a debate

is if the Spurs overtake the Thunder in the standings. And that means that Thunder have to lose a few games. Like the Spurs winning out, the Thunder's not to lose a few games. And they're not, the Thunder are healthy. They've been all season and haven't been losing anyway. No. Well, I'll tell you what. I like the fact that it's late March and this is still up in the air and it could still go each way. At the end of the day, that's what I really like more than anything. And I love that Wimby is so damn entertaining. I tell you guys, he makes me crack up laughing multiple times a game just because he does things that are so ridiculous. And then is willing to grab the microphone and very eloquently beat his chest and say, I'm the baddest bleep in the damn league. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Okay, so the Denver Nuggets over the weekend,

they play the Portland Trailblazers. Their injury report was empty. That's right. The Nuggets who have been banged and battered and had four starters out of times this year, fully healthy. As we record this, they play Phoenix Tuesday night. Peyton Watson is sitting out of that game

because they have a back-to-back, and he's not going to play him back-to-backs coming off the hamstring. Additionally, over the weekend, or I guess it was on Monday, Jalen Williams in Oklahoma City returned. And for the Thunder's game on Wednesday, I can't remember who they're playing. They're in Boston. Played the Celtics. Oh, that's right. Big game.

There you go. Clean injury report. I mean, relative, clean injury report in terms of the rotation players. Their rotation players are all available for one of the first times the season. I think it's, I think it might be the, it's, it's, it's. It's under five times they've had their top nine players all available. I mean, their starting lineup. They've had six times all season.

Right. So I was doing it. I was at this game last night. I wrote a story about Jamie and has come back, which I'll get to the overall number about it in a second. But McBan indicated something to me while we were, I was getting ready for the, to write the story that I wanted to just highlight.

So McMahon, to set this up, how many times did the Thunder's starting five that started last night, which is, Chegillos Alexander, Lou Dort, Janele Williams, Isaiah Hardinstein, and Chet Holmgren. How many times did they play together last season? I believe it was 14. It was 14 times.

Plus the playoffs, but 14 times in the regular season. I'm just talking about the regular season. So last season, the Oklahoma City Thunder had their preferred starting lineup start 14 times. They went 68 and 14. This year, they've had their preferred starting lineup. They're like, if everybody's healthy, here's who they're starting, play six times all season.

Their combined record over those two seasons together, when you add it up, is 125 and 29. And that's with having massive health issues both seasons. And last year, last year, Chet missed over half the season. This year, Jenner Williams missed over half the season. These are max players. They have had key, they've had several key rotation players out for stretches of time of both last season and this season, and they've won over 80% of their games. It's just a, it's unbelievable.

And it, I do think speaks to the fact that going into the playoffs, we just got done talking about Victor. Victor is amazing. The Spurs have had an unbelievable season. The Thunder are playing in Boston. Jason Tatum's back. We're going to talk about him. They're having a great season.

There's all these interesting teams atop the east. We'll see what happens with the Lakers and their late surge. We'll see what happens with Denver, Nicole Yokic. We'll see what happens with Anthony Edwards and the wolves. The Oklahoma City Thunder, if they are healthy in the playoffs, should be the gigantic favorites to win the title again. And it's going to be a huge disappointment if they don't. Because this team is the deepest team in the league.

I think they have the best player in the league. And again, they have won 80% of their games the last two years with all these injuries. So we haven't had a repeat title team in eight years. And that streak should end this spring. And if it doesn't, the Thunder will have. have given it away in some form or fashion. I agree with everything until you said they will give it away because, listen, the nuggets who are also healthy, damn near took it from them last year.

It went to seven, and seven Aaron Gordon was playing on a hamstring that I can't believe he played on. It was a blowout in game seven, but still, they push them seven games. And listen, man, I know the spurs don't have a single second of playoff experience as a group. But as Victor Wim and Yama said, San Antonio dominated that season. season series, and Wimby is a problem that I don't care who it is, Oklahoma City, Denver, Lakers. Wimby is a problem that's going to be hard to solve in a seven-game series. That's fair. I will just quickly put out two things before Ryan jumps in.

I thought it was really interesting last night hearing Jalen Williams talk after the game, and he got asked about what's the difference between this year and last year for them, and he talked about their experience, and he said, I thought it was always kind of silly in the past when people talked about you feel different after you won. But I could tell you this year after we won, we're a lot more confident. And it's really a real thing. And we feel it's a much different feeling having gone through it. And the other thing I'll say is he, and you've chronicled this all year, McMahon, he was adamant. His wrist is 100% and is totally back to normal. And he's totally healthy. And, you know, somebody a few weeks ago compared this year's Thunder team to

last year's Pacers team, which had sort of a similar path in the season where they had all these injuries and they never had anybody healthy until right about now. And they got in the playoffs and they were fully healthy when it mattered and they took off. And I just think if this Thunder team is fully healthy, they should beat everybody. And if they don't, yes, you're right, Victor's is incredible. Something like that might happen. But I think we'll look back on. them losing if they're healthy as them giving games away rather than somebody taking it from them based off to me the talent advantage they should have on everybody else. The risk thing's a big deal because he missed the first 19 games.

We all remember he put off the surgery until after the playoffs. He missed the first 19 games and then he shot it really poorly because he still didn't have full range of motion coming back off of that. And when he came back, it was just before the All-Star break, I'd cover the game here in L.A. when he came back. And he said that night, he was like, my wrist feels much better just because I was able to do things with it, not playing games, recovering from this hamstring injury that just helped a lot. And then the next game in Phoenix, he made his first 11 shots from the floor. He had 28 points in 20 minutes.

28 points at 20 minutes, and then he heard his hamstring and missed another six weeks. Right. And so I'm not surprised to hear him say that the wrist feels as good as it has. And, you know, if he's shooting the ball well and he's back to being that big time number two offensive option, that's huge. And don't tell him, I don't want to hear how good the Thunder's record is without Jaydon Williams, as if that's some kind of knock against him. If you watch the playoffs last year, I don't need to sit here and tell you how important he is to their hopes of winning a championship. Yes, and this is a thing. I don't know where to put the line because I want to honor.

or what I think is an incredible phenomenon happening with Victor Wimbunyama and that he can be the type of player who can overcome. I mean, really, one of the definitions of Superstar for me is can you lead your team to a series where you don't have the better team, which is what LeBron did early in his career. It's what Luca did early in his career.

Bernhardt did in 2011? Absolutely. It's like, you know, that's not the only definition of Superstar, but it's one of them. And so I want to honor what I think is that power with Victor, but also don't want to disrespect what you are describing about Temps, which is a absolute growling powerhouse that is, you know, fully healthy. I want to put something out about Denver, though,

and we'll see what happens in tonight's game because I don't, you know, guaranteed jinx. After tonight, when they play in Phoenix, they have nine games left. Seven of those nine games are at home, fully healthy. also they finished the season playing Oklahoma City and San Antonio, I think, in that order, the last two games of the season. It's possible that those games will not matter, that the first and second seed will be established. It's possible that they will matter. We just don't know yet. But the quote-unquote hard games that Denver has left might not see their best teams.

You know, they may not play their best teams. So I would just say that Denver is in position to get that fourth seed, I think, if they handle their business and avoid injury. And I'll say something else. With the Lakers, they play the Pacers on Wednesday. I don't know if they'll win that game. The Pacers have lost 16 to 17. I've got a guess. But go on.

The Lakers' next three games are Pacers, Nets, Wizards. If they beat the tankers. beat the tankers, it puts the Lakers in very strong position to get that three. So what I'm saying to you is the Nuggets and Lakers are in position to take seeds three and four. Whether or not they actually do, I don't know. But we will definitely see. Bont-Tams, you had a story that's publishing on Wednesday about Jason Tatum. One of the more interesting things happening in the league right now.

there was a topic on first take when I was on there today about whether or not Tatum's return is costing the Celtics in some way. Their offensive numbers are down. His shooting numbers are not great. I think it was spurred by Tracy McGrady. They were broadcasting a game in Boston on NBC the other night and he was speculating that Tatum was having a negative effect. That may be some truth to that in terms of their offensive production. even though Jalen Brown's numbers are still, he's still getting the same number of shots.

It's not like he came in and Jalen Brown is not getting the ball. As you guys know, before Tatum even came back, I said I don't care what it looks like in March. I don't really care what it looks like in April. I care what it looks like on May 1st. I stand by it. But Bontz, you did a piece on Tatum and how he's looking, and I will hand the floor to you.

Yeah, I mean, I would say that was generally the opinion of everybody I talked to as well. I think everybody agrees that based off Tatum's timeline for return being 10 months out from a torn Achilles, he looks about as good as you could realistically hope for. And the question is, how is he going to look in two months or in six weeks? And nobody can tell you really for sure, right? Like, nobody's got a crystal ball to know exactly how that's going to go. I think it's interesting in doing this story and looking at some stats and sort of analyzing how he's been. His usage rate going into this game on Wednesday is 30.8.

He's at a usage rate somewhere between 30 and 32 each of the last five years running. So his usage is right back to where it was before he got hurt. Now, is that the most optimal thing? I would say probably not. However, Jason Tatum was probably going to come back and play like Jason Tatum whenever he came back. And to your point about, you know, is this hurting the Celtics or not? I mean, I'm sorry. I think this entire conversation is idiotic.

and I've thought so from the moment it was brought up before he even came back. Because look, Jordan Walsh has had a really nice year. He's a good young player. Jason Tatum has essentially replaced Jordan Walsh in the Celtics rotation. There is no world where the Celtics are worse off with Jordan Walsh playing instead of Jason Taitom. Now, perhaps Jason Tatum will not get back to being Jason Tatum between now and the end of their season, whether it's in the finals or the first round or the conference finals or whenever. But what's undoubtedly true is the Celtics have a dramatically higher ceiling to try to win a championship.

Yes. If they have Jason Tatum in the lineup, whether Jason Tatum is an okay player, a good player, or something close to the first team NBA player he was each of the past four seasons. So of course it's a good thing for the Celtics that Jason Tatum is back. Now, he's not shooting the ball well. He looks a little bit sluggish with the ball, which is, again, all normal stuff. his first step looks a little slow. That's all true.

However, he remains a great rebounder. He's still a very good team defender. He still can make plays. And he's still a guy who fills in gaps across the board, which is why he's always been a very positive player that's lifted up whatever group of players he's basically ever been out there with his entire career with the Celtics. So the biggest thing that, the biggest message I got from basically everybody I talked to was

it's just going to be a matter of time to see how he looks. over the next six weeks or so, and it's impossible to know where it lands, but credit to him for being back, and, you know, we'll see how he can develop both between now and then. But the idea that they're somehow worse off with him playing, I just, it's just a ridiculous conversation for anybody to have. Well, Jason Tatum's return is not going to cost the Boston Celtics a championship. Jason Tatum's return raises the ceiling to a championship possibility. Right. It gives them a chance to win one as opposed to not having one. Now, it doesn't mean it's going to happen, but like to,

it's pretty ridiculous to jump to any kind of knee-jerk reactions based on two weeks of, you know, shooting numbers, essentially, from a guy coming back off of a 10-month rehab. Like, did you think Taden was just going to hit the ground running at an all-MBA level off of an Achilles? I mean, and the thing that spurred this story was Sunday night after said games, that Tracy McGrady and the NBC crew was at against the wolves without anything Edwards in Boston where the Celtics couldn't hit a shot and they blew a lead and lost.

Tatum had a pretty frank post-game interview about all this stuff. And at one point he got asked about how you sort of handled the ups and downs of trying to come back. And he said, quote, I didn't know how this blank was going to be.

It's tough. In the moment you try not to think about it, you just want to be Jason Tatum and feel like yourself again. but I'm not Superman, so it's obviously going to take some time. And it is obviously going to take some time. He wasn't going to come back

and immediately be a first team all-l-being player. And that's just the question is, can that ramp-up period happen fast enough for him to get back to being an all-star, all-in-bay caliber player by the time the playoffs come around? But I will say,

when the Celtics have struggled in the past, it's been when they've tended to hold the ball more and rely on their three-point shooting. And sometimes the three-stop go in and they look great. Sometimes the threes don't go in and they look bad. And with Tatum back, the one thing that does happen is they lean a little bit more into that and a little bit less into the helter-skelter fly around, you know, hustle play stuff

that they've been doing around Jalen Brown this season. But newsflash to people who think that's a bad thing, that also gives the Celtics, as McGahn said, an actual championship ceiling, which is why this has been something we've talked about all season. It's why it matters. It's why it's great Jason Tamum is back. And we'll see what the next few weeks. looks like.

Very important Cavs Corner Update before we go. Good. Jared Allen, Kenny Atkinson, says Jared Allen, who missed his ninth straight game on Tuesday night, is ramping up key piece of information on the Eastern Conference playoff race. Just said it a few minutes ago. So let it be known. Jared Al is coming back. It's going to be a very interesting close to the season in the east where you've got the

Knicks, the Celtics, and the Cavs all pretty bunched together in those two, three, four spots. and you've got the Pistons with Cade Cunningham out with the collapsed lung sitting in first. And holding on 8 and 2 when Cade doesn't play. That's not a knock on his head. They're going to get the one seat.

Between the Celtics losing that game to the wolves on Sunday night and then the Pistons coming back and beating the Lakers the next night without Cade. I would say with five losses up with a handful of games to go. Yeah, they're going to be the one seat. But I mean, even if they went under 500 and the Celtics won out. I'm not sure that it would, I mean,

if they went like five and six, I'm not sure they would. The Cavs won out. The Cavs have the magic and the heat right now, while we're doing this pod Tuesday night to play the magic. Then they play the heat Wednesday night, the second night of it back to back. Here is.

Stay to Florida on a 10-game losing streak, by the way. Go on. As of now. The Cavs schedule in April is the following. At Warriors, home for Pacers, at Grizzlies, a home-and-hole. home with the Hawks and home for the Wizards. So you got four automatic tankers in there.

And those two games against the Hawks are going to be fascinating because I think there's a chance. They just stink. Go on. Well, the Warriors are, the Warriors are very banged up with injuries. Obviously, Moses Moody had a really unfortunate injury, Torres Patella on Monday. Steph probably could still be out then. The point is those two games against the Hawks are going to be super interesting, I think, the last week of the season, because that could be an opportunity for the cab.

to potentially manipulate their way into whatever seed they want from two to four. And it also could be the difference between the Hawks being in the play-in or being fifth or sixth because that whole group of teams from five to ten is three or four games apart in total. Yes. So those games on Wednesday and Friday, that final week of the season, are going to be once to watch. Anyway, Jared Allen might be coming back to sin. All right. Thank you so much to McMahon and Bonfemps.

Thank you to Jackson and the rest of our producers. Thank you for listening and watching to The Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.