Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Haliburton Dominates, Knicks Or Wolves Better Comeback Chance?

Episode Date: May 28, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Pacers’ incredible offensive performance in Game 4 vs. the Knicks initiated by Tyrese Haliburton’s historic output before talking the Thunder’s clutch performances from J-Dub and Chet to take down the Wolves in Minnesota. Then, the guys talk if the Knicks or Wolves have a better chance of surviving past Game 5. Finally, a special Hoop Collective announcement. Live Show Link: https://hooplive.eventbrite.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the HOOP Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing just after midnight on Tuesday evening, Wednesday morning. Joining us from Gainesbridge Fieldhouse in Indianapolis, Indiana, where the Pacers put up 130 on the Knickerbockers in game four and have now taken a 3-1 lead in the Eastern Conference finals, Tim Bontemps.

Better learn how to say the name of this place properly. It's Gainbridge Fieldhouse because I think you're going to be here a lot for the next couple of weeks. What did I say? You've been saying Gainsbridge, the last couple of pots. That's all. Just a funny little joke after a Pacer's Vominant performance. I appreciate your checking me.

I was one of your finest qualities. Joining us from right here in Oklahoma City. A full-time job. For game five of the Western Conference Finals on Wednesday. By the way, Bontem's sources have told me that Bann McMahon has been mistaken in public for both Dave McManaman and Tim Bontems in a 12-hour span in the last day.

One of those is an insult, and one of them is me. So that's partially good and partially bad, Big Pan. Howdy, partners, yeah. Those are both true. I did forget about the Bon Timps thing. You're very forgettable. That was a wee hours of the morning type of situation, a little post-game situation.

The other one was in broad daylight. Both very disappointing. Almost as disappointing as the Knicks defense in game four, Bon Temps. But I really don't want to talk about the Knicks out of the gate. I really think we should talk about the masterful performance that we saw from Tyrese Halliburton. There's going to be a debate. I think I can already sniff it in the ESPN ecosystem if Tyrese Halliburton is now a bona fide superstar. I don't know about that, but I do know that this was a superstar performance bontems.

I mean, that would be, even by our standards, that would be dumb. Tyrese Halliburton is a superstar. And Tyrese Halliburton just had as good an offensive performance as you could possibly have in an NBA. game. 32 points, 15 assists, no turnovers, 12 rebounds, four steals, a truly masterful performance from the opening moment at the game. After he sat at this podium, after game three, and said he wasn't good enough, he had to be better and he would be better in game four. Not only was he, it's not hyperbole to say that's as good an offensive game as you can possibly have. And yes, the next defense wasn't good enough, and yes, they have to be better if they want to get the series back

here to Indiana, let alone to win three more games and get to the NBA finals. But part of the reason the Knicks didn't look good offensively tonight was because I don't know if there's a defense on the planet that would have slowed down Tyrese Alberton today. Because that was a truly special performance by a guy who has repeatedly shown he is a special player offensively as there is in the league. It's why Indiana has had this unbelievable offense the past couple of years with him at the controls. Yes, they've got a lot of good players around him. Pascal Seaccom had a phenomenal game. He's a perfect running made for him.

Rick Carlisle done a great job building this system around them. They've got guys like Andrew Nemhart and Aaron Neesmith and Miles Turner, who all are really good two-way players, can all shoot the three, give him a lot of space to operate. None of it, though, is possible without Tyrese Halliburton at the controls. And that was just an unbelievable performance to watch, particularly after he said it was all his fault, even though it wasn't, I think, all his fault after game three,

and said he was going to be better, and they would be better. And it was incredible to watch. We're not participating in like superstar debates for a guy who just went for 32, 12 rebounds, 15 assists, four steals without a turnover in an Eastern Conference finals game. By the way, the second straight year he's been in the Eastern Conference. And hey, I know this. I know Yonis is a superstar. Tyreus Halliburton is sending him home. I know Donovan is a superstar. Tyre's Halliburton sending him home. I know Jaylon Brunson. Runson's a superstar and he looks like Tari's Hal Burton is going to be sending him home.

So when you line him up like that and they keep going home at your hands, then yeah. You know, and honestly, like the whole overrated thing, that just means players don't like him. And I like that players don't like him. You would. I love. I would. Listen, though, the man talks trash. She's got antics and he backs it up. What's not to love about that?

and look, I know there's, oh my gosh, just small market stuff. Tyrese Halliburton is absolutely a marketable superstar who is barging his way onto the biggest stage in basketball, and it should absolutely be appreciated and celebrated. Not so sure about those suit shorts that he was rolling in the game with tonight. Did he wear that to the podium post game, contest? I didn't see what shorts he had on coming off to the podium, but I would assume it was the same clothes he had walking in the building. building, I would think.

Listen, not everything should be appreciated, celebrated, but the meaning can hoop. And the other thing is this Paco's team is just unbelievably fun to watch. They share the ball. They play really fast. They, you know, Tyrese sprays the ball ahead. That's why Siakum is such a perfect fit for him because he's very happy to kick the ball ahead to somebody else and let him attack. And Pascal Seaccombe has always been a fantastic one-on-one offensive player in the

half court. And, you know, when he's able to get a one-on-one matchup and go with his quick particularly against a big, and you saw it a few times tonight. He gets a kick ahead and he's got Mitchell Robinson or Carl Towns or one of these guys isolated on him and they just can't stay in front of him. And that willingness by Tyrese to give the ball up, to kick it ahead, to play with pace, to play fast. Everything this team is built around is built around his skill set. And we talked about it a lot at the time, but you go back to that trade with him and DeMontasabonis. And sorry, DeBonis subonis, you've never gotten out of the first round of the playoffs for a reason.

He's a very good player, but he has a lot of limitations. The Eastern Conference versus the Western Conference slightly different. No, no, we're not doing both teams won. He didn't get out of the first. One that trade by a landslide. He didn't get out of the first round with the Pacers multiple times either. And this team has leveled up because Tyrese Halliburton has lifted this offense to a place that no, nobody can really get to.

And you've talked about them for a long time, Brian, the Pacers and how good they are. And look, obviously both teams got to get one more win. but it's certainly looking like it's going to be Pacers Thunder in the finals. We've talked a ton about how the relentless pressure of the thunder defensively wears down the opponents over the course of 48 minutes, right? This is what Indiana does to teams. And Brian, you've talked about this a lot. This is what Indiana does to teams over one, four, seven games in these series.

You have to be on at all times. You have to be ready for them at all times. And if you're not, they're getting backcuts for layups. They're getting open threes. They're getting transition laps. and that's what happened to the Knicks tonight. The Knicks stuck around in the game. They scored 121 points.

They hung in there. They kept fighting back. But every time they'd get close, they would give up a straight line drop for a lap. Or they'd give up an open three because they just weren't quite locked in. It was kind of like watching the wolves. Like the Knicks played a quality game tonight. You know, there are some issues, which we'll talk about. The Knicks played a quality game.

Most nights in the NBA, most nights in the playoffs, their performance tonight was a victory. but not against this team right now, just like the Wolf's performance last night was similar and not against this team right now. No, I mean, that's it. And it's what's going to make this finals if it happens, a really fun, fascinating basketball matchup because you've got this high-powered,

high-octane frenetic offense going up against this physical high-octane frenetic defense. And it's going to be a real bashing of one, you know, one strength against another. and I think it's got a chance to be duper fun to watch. And again, like in this series, we got Janlon Brunson and Tyrese Allberton going back and forth.

You got the MVP of the league and Tyrese Halliburton, one of the most exciting players in the league going back and forth at the same position. I think he's got a chance to be an awesome, fun ride. And obviously, there's still some time left to go in this series. I don't think it's as over as Thunderwolves is. But you come out of this game, the way Tyree's played, and certainly hard to see the pace is losing three times in a row. Yeah, so a couple of things about this game.

One, you mentioned Siakum. Siakum had 30 tonight. Between Halliburton and Siakum, they were 22 of 44. Holy hell. That's a, that's a, I don't know what you're going to do about that. That's just. You're going to lose. That's what's going to happen.

Yeah. The other thing is height, size and depth, size and depth, depth, depth, and size. That is the name of the game and the current NBA. It was very successful for some teams in the regular season. And it's been successful for some teams in the postseason. The Pacers in Thunder aren't huge, but they definitely have depth and they definitely have the ability to have guys, you know, bigs come off the bench to play multiple positions.

And in this game, Benedict Matherin, who had really given them, he was awesome as a sixth man, as a scorer, as a hellraiser in the regular season. He had, you know, he hadn't given him anything in the postseason. He comes off the bench and has 20 tonight. In 12 minutes. Yeah. Oh, my God. Exactly.

And so, you know, McConnell was one of the best off-the-bench guards in the league. Ben Shepard's role is grown in the postseason. I got to tell you, one of the most incredible stats of the playoffs happened tonight in this game. I don't know if you guys want to take a guess at it. And I'm not talking about Halliburton. I was going to say, is this in the non-Halbertan division? Non-Halliburton division. Not Halliburton Division.

Incredible halberton stats. I know. After the game, Carlisle, like two or three times was like, stop talking about individual stats. This is a team game. I'm like, okay, I got it. Here's a team, it's a team stat. Okay. The Indiana Pacers, Bontempts, you want to take a guest?

Do you know? I'm not sure. you need a Pacer's head five offensive rebounds in this game. Not a great night offensive rebound wise and scored 15 second chance points. Holy efficiency, Batman. Yeah, that's true. You want to know a pathway to getting beat. The Knicks had 13 offensive rebounds.

The Pacers had five. The Knicks had 15 second chance points. The Pacers had 15 second chance points. I mean, that's just, like, that didn't define the game, but that just is an illustration of the way the Pacers were handling their business. You actually get a stop. You get a stop and okay, you know, they finally miss. Okay, only give it a five offensive rebounds, not bad.

You give up 15, my God. I mean, the Knicks lost the game in two areas. One, fast break points, 22 to 9. Obviously, Indiana has dominated in fast break points in the series. The biggest one, though, was turnovers. Nick said 17 turnovers led to 20 points, 20 to 9 advantage for Indiana and points off turnovers. Josh Hart in particular had several really bad turnovers. And again, another comparison to the Thunder, if you give up live ball turnovers to this pacer team, it's already hard enough.

I mean, they score a lot of times in transition off a made baskets. If they get a steel at half court, which Al Burton got a couple of them, live ball, I mean, you're cooked right away. I got it. If Halliburton gets the ball out in the open court with guys running with them, they might miss a three. Right. It's going to be a layup or a three. They just might not make it.

When you're watching the Pacers on TV, you know it's standard when you're watching on TV that a guy will score and then the television broadcast will sometimes switch to an isolation shot of the player who just scored. Can't do it. The Pacers, they switched to a guy who just scored and the guy's got a look of horror on his face because he's running back. on defense because there's a ball's coming right at him. And you got to be careful doing that because you might miss another bucket. You're not kidding. You got to be on your toes. And by the way,

one thing, one thing about Halberton is interesting. It Staps Williams just sent me. Tyrese Alberton was the ball handler on 25 on ball screens where Jalen Brunson was the screener defender in game four. In other words, Pacers went after Jalen Brunson just about every time they could. The most on-ball screens defended by a player against Darius Alburton in a playoff game in his career for Genius IQ. So the patients went out and they got a lot of success with it. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. All right.

I want to look at the raw box score here for just a second. And then I'm going to go over some lineup data on the Knicks. And I just want to say before we start this conversation, Jalen Brunson is an awesome player. He has had an awesome postseason. Where would the Knicks be without him? They'd be home. Okay. In this particular series and this particular,

alignment where he plays with Carl Towns, Brunson's potency has been dimmed. Okay, is that a politically correct way to say it? I don't know if his potency has been dimmed as much as he's just been a total bull's eye. Okay. Because he's scoring. But they ain't winning. I'm trying to avoid being attacked for saying a bad word about you. Yeah, you're not trying to trash Brunson, but the simple fact is Rick Carlisle and Tyreys Halberton have targeted him repeatedly and successfully. And look, it's not a secret. Like Brunson's defensively challenged to say the least. You know, like why he was second round pick, you know, I mean, like there's, you know, but okay.

He's athletically limited. He's not very big. You know, you've got to protect him scheme wise, which is more difficult with Kat. And it's been exposed in this series. All right. Well, let's talk about some data here. Okay. In this game, Jalen Brunson played 37.

minutes. He was minus 16. Now, plus minus data, highly circumstantial, plus minus 16. Carl Towns played 37 minutes. He is plus three. Only Nick started to line up with a plus. When Carl Towns and Jalen Brunson have played together in this series over the first five games, over the first four games, they're minus 24. Okay. Those are two all-MBA players. They got them to the conference finals. These two guys is the engines, they are minus 24. In this game, they were minus four. So when Brunson played without towns, the Knicks got outscored by 12 points in this game. And when towns played without Brunson, they were plus seven. Again, together, minus four, together in the series, minus 24. The pacer's have pretty regularly attacked them. And Bontemps, there's a number of reasons why the Knicks are

behind. Some of it is just excellent pacer play. This is the reality. The reality is that they're two best players because of their defense and because of the Pacers can attack them. And by the way, on the other side, Aaron Neesmith comes into this game. And Carlisle said after the game, he wasn't, I don't know if he was having gamesmanship, but he said that he wasn't sure he was able to play. He played 33 minutes was very effective. And he was plus 20. And Neath Smith being on the court, basically matching Brunson for most of that time was a factor

in that. But Bontemps, for as much as the Knicks have going for him, for as awesome as jump as Brunson has been, like this is something. that you're going to have to deal with if you're the Knicks. This is a reality about why you're having trouble in this series. Yeah, I mean, it's it is a reality of the series. I also think this is just what Indiana has done to everybody. I mean, it's what they did to the Cavs.

It's what they did to Fox. It's what they did last year. You know, they're an extraordinarily hard team to guard. And again, you know, if you have a lineup with five shooters at every spot and all of them are credible offensive threats, which is Indiana group. group is, like, it's just going to be really difficult for any team to guard them. And yes, the Knicks have had trouble with them. And yes, Jaylen Brunce is in trouble with it.

But, like, there's not really a fix for it. Like, other than the Knicks just have to guard better and have to, and they've had stretches in this series when they have done that. Like, Jaylon Brunson was out there, I think, for the entire third quarter of the last game. And the Knicks gave up 22 points. Carl Town was the only big out there for the entire fourth quarter of the last game. They gave up 20 points, right?

So Towns defensive numbers tonight were not bad. I think I'll look at it up here, but I think they were four of 13 against him. I think. Yeah, and Towns is also spending a lot of time out there without Halliburton, which is, I think, the bigger story than his defensive ability. Right. The Pacers got cooked whenever Halliburton wasn't on the court. So, you know, that's the bigger issue is that when arguably as good an offensive

players there is in the league is out there. And that's the thing about plus minus. you can't, you can't overreact. Yeah, well, but the problem is the Knicks have not been able to find a consistent answer to stop Tyrese Halliburton. And there really hasn't been anybody that's found a consistent answer to stop Tyrese Alburton. And that, that is why the Knicks are down 3-1 in the series. And that is why the Knicks have had trouble.

Like the Knicks staggered their, they staggered towns and Brunson today. They didn't have them playing together all the time. Like Brunson had 31 points on decent efficiency in the game. He got wherever he wanted on the court. But, you know, Alberton was unbelievable and would draining shots on him. Like, there's just not a lot else he could have really done on a lot of those shots. He was up in him decently and Alburn just made shots. He's an incredible player.

So, you know, like that, you know, I think you're the next. It is interesting, you know, that Halliburton, he averaged 17 points a game in the regular season. There's more than a half of 18 of change, but yes. Okay, 18. Let's see what he was averaging in the postseason coming into tonight. I want to say he was around 18. or 19, I think. Yeah, I mean, his point totals of wax and wane.

Yeah, 18 and a half. Yeah, he doesn't put up 30 every night. But when he starts hitting threes like he did tonight and starts getting in a rhythm, he can get as hot as anybody in the league. It's what he did in game four against Cleveland when the backbreaking game of that series in the second quarter. And it's what he did in the first quarter, especially of this game. He came right out.

And I think, well, four and four in the first quarter immediately set a tone for how the game was going to go, and the Nix took off, or the bases took right off from there. Oh, yeah, and he's not a brilliant offensive player because of his scoring ability. It's because of the way he can set the pace, and it's because he's one of, if not the best facilitator in the league. I mean, last year he led Lee in assists, leading the playoffs in assists right now. Yeah, he's, I think, TWA Jackson, how many points did he generate tonight that was an assists? I mean, he had 32 points and had 15 assists. That's a minimum of 62 points. And I'm sure

several of those assists. So. Yeah. And, you know, and then six off his passes tonight. Oh, 68 then. And then he's also a big shot maker. I mean, he is a Cahonis factor reigning player of the month. Certainly, I would say he's the frontrunner for the Cowanist Factor player of the year. Is there going to be a player of the year? Because is that how you, I don't remember how we did it. He said after the rent of the regular season that he was done doing it, but now it might be coming back. It's like the criteria for the award. It's just everything's changing. He's the boss of it.

He is. It's true. 36 points on 15 of 23 off Tyrese Halliburton's passes tonight. Yeah, it's pretty good. 15 to 23. Like Holy Moses, he scores 30 whatever and they score 15 to 23 off his passes. I mean, come on. With no turnovers, with no turnovers.

You know what? The more we look at this, it's a. miracle. The Knicks only lost by nine. It's like the wolves last night. The Knicks played a very good game. Tyree Saliburton truly had as good an offensive game as you could ever have in an NBA game. And to me, the Knicks, that's a little bit of hyperbole, but it was a hell. It's not. It's not. To have 32 and 15 on efficient shooting with no turnovers, like you can't, there's really not, like, sure, you could have 70 points in a game. But when you're talking about playing an offensive game, it's as good as anybody. It's as good a game as you can have. It just is. I can present you some Joker games, but it's a historically special game.

Historically special. Sure. Again, it's as good a game as you can have. And if I'm the Knicks, if I'm looking at this game, the thing that I am harping on are the turnovers, especially. They just were really careless with the ball. Josh Hart threw several horrible passes that turned into turnovers. McHale Bridges had a couple, at least one at the top of the key where he just threw it basically right into Tyrus Alburn's hands when he was guarding them. Like the Knicks are not going to be a fast-breaking team.

They're not going to win a shootout with the Pacers typically, even though they played pretty well offensively tonight. You cannot give up 17 turnovers. You cannot give up 20 points off turnovers because, again, Aliburton, even if he's not scoring the ball, isn't giving you turnovers. He's not giving the ball back. He's got six turnovers in the four games. Right.

I mean, he averages basically a turnover a game through the season. Maybe it's a turnover and a half. So like, he's not giving the ball away and he's going to have the ball three quarters of the time. So again, that's to me where the Knicks lost the game. It was just being, yes, the defense has to be better, but they've got to have 10 turnovers and they've got to win the points off turnover battle. And if they do, they can give themselves a chance. If they don't, I don't see how they're winning in game five or any other game in this series. Well, and his turnovers have actually dropped every year that he's been in Indiana.

3.2, 2.5, 2.3.1.6 this year to play as fast as he does. And it's not like he doesn't throw, you know, some passes through tight windows or, you know, passes that are traveling a lot of distance. It's not like he doesn't take calculated risks, but to protect the ball as well as he does as a guy who's racking up assists like that and being aggressive, it's incredible, man. He actually talked about that. He actually talked about it after the game where he,

somebody asked, I think it might have been our colleague, Jamal Kyle, you're asking him about, you know, what is it about you that you have the ball so much and you don't turn it over? And he said, look,

I know I jump a lot. And it's, I probably jump more than just about any other player who asks as much as I do. But I practice that all the time. And I like, I practice taking care of the ball. And it comes off in the way that he plays. And, like, he just doesn't ever make a mistake when he's passing the ball.

It's amazing. Pacers are averaging 10 turnovers a game in this series. And game one, he did you remember, went to overtime. So there's a little bit of a juicing in there. So I think the one game, they had seven. And by the way, not to get our head of ourselves, we can. The teams can. We can.

You're looking at it. You're talking about a guy who is spectacular as a playmaker protecting the ball, Going up against the best turnover forcing, the best defense period, but the best turnover forcing team in the league by a significant margin. I, the finals. More hoop collective podcast after this. McMahon and I were in the Target Center on Tuesday night, no, Monday night, Memorial Day to see the best game of that series so far. And the best game of the Thunder, this group of the Thunder, McMahon? considering mistakes?

I mean, the best game, no. I mean, they've won by 51. Are you talking about the performance of their three young stars? Yes. That I would say yes. The highest score in playoff performance for that trio. And honestly, I thought it was an okay. It sounds crazy because she had 49 rebounds in tennis.

I thought it was by his standards an okay game. It wasn't the most efficient in the world ever. This was a big time game for their 2020. two draft class. Oh, God. That draft class is what elevated this team quickly into contender status. We've talked so much about, hey, can Jalen Williams be that number two guy on a title team?

And this was a big time, big time performance for him. He was spectacular. He's the one who set the tone early. He's the one who slammed the door late. It was phenomenal in the fourth quarter. Had a bunch of big shots. You know, was very efficient. And then Chet Holmgren was making plays all over the place.

I thought it was probably Chet's best game of the series. And it's like Shea said, man, he's 26, J-dubs 24, Chet's 23. I think they're all still getting better, but especially, you know, the younger two guys. But this was a huge, huge game for Jalen Williams, who it's not been the smoothest playoffs for him. But he came through for him big time in game seven, which, you know, didn't kind of float on the radar because it was a blowout, but this is a nut. This time, they needed them. And he was awesome. Big shot in game five against Denver, which I think we potted that night.

And I think Bontem said that that win could end up to be a defining moment in the playoffs. We'll see. But he had the game. Yeah, the defining moment at the playoffs. I think it was. And look, if you look at this game, like you said, McMahon, I mean, he hit a couple huge shots late. I think he had 12 points in the fourth quarter, had 34 on 13 for 24 shooting, six for nine. from three, including a couple of massive threes late. Most threes has ever made in the game. Yeah, and that was the, and that was, look, like we talked about earlier, Minnesota played really well in this game.

Like, the discourse about Anthony Edwards was silly. He moved the ball because Oklahoma City made him move the ball. His teammates hit shots. He's got 126 points. Well, I'm just saying, the point is Minnesota did well enough to win the game on most nights, and it took those three guys all playing like stars to win. in the game. And Jayla Williams doing that in that spot, I thought was a very big moment because, yes, he hit the big shot in game five, but stunk in the game. To your point, he had a really good game seven,

but most of it was in free air, pretty easy, even though it was a game seven. To do it in this game, where all the chips were down, you really put a hammer lock on the series. If you went on the road, coming back from a disastrous performance by the whole group in game three, thought it was a huge moment for him, huge moment for the thunder. And look, I certainly expect the series to be over. tonight, Wednesday night, at home in Oklahoma City in game five. It was a huge moment for Sam Presti because how much talk has there been about, hey, are they going to cash in some of those picks? Are they going to get a co-star for Shea?

And Presti has been patient, patient, patient. It wasn't just patient, just to be patient. His patience was belief in Jaylon Williams and belief in Chet Holngwyn and belief that they had a, a championship caliber core already in place. They had secondary stars already in place. And, you know, Jalen Williams was named third team all NBA, was named second team all defense, and just had the most important big-time performance of his career.

So you've got to give him the max now, don't you think? Well, I think you're going to have to probably do that. Regardless, the question is, is it going to be super max eligible? And by the way, that's also a question for Chet, who, yeah, he wasn't award eligible this year, but I think there's a very good chance. He can be in those either all-MBA

or defense player of the year conversations next year. Well, that's a topic for another day. But the performance by the Thunder's defense in this game on Ann Edwards was impressive because they double-teamed him on 100% of his drives. Every time... Yeah, they're packing the paint. He drove the ball to the paint.

Every single time, he was double-team, sometimes triple-teamed, And on 91, I think it was 91% of his possessions, he got a help defender. Yeah, Dagonal would say the priority is making him play in a crowd. And they definitely, like, that was the priority and that was the execution. It was actually interesting. So, yeah, before the game, Chris Finch, they ran sound of him speaking to the team. And he was telling the wolves, free game in the locker room,

Our goal here is to shut off Hallibur, or shut off Holmgren and shut off Williams. That's our goal. So that was their strategy was to make Shea beat them. Okay. That was a wolf strategy. Obviously, the Thunder strategy was anybody but aunt. We had two teams operated. Make anybody else.

Yeah. Right. In different strategies. Well, anybody but Ann and Randall. And look, Ant and Randall combined. for 20 shots. Forget points. Points was 21, but only 20 shot attempts. And, you know, the Thunderwell said, hey, you know, we've got to be better as far as not giving up as good looks to their role players. But, dude, their role players lit it up. I mean, Devin Chenzo,

five of eight from three. Dekeel Alexander Walker was awesome. He was five of eight from three. Yeah, Jade McDaniels, three is six. I mean, but they got 44 points out of Devenchino and Nikiel Alexander Walker. Those guys made the Thunder pay for selling out to not let Ant and Randall get in a groove. But the Timberl scored 126 points against the best defense in the NBA. They did not lose this game because of their offense. They did not lose this game because Ant didn't take over. What if they scored 126 points.

That's right. They lost it because they couldn't stop OKC. They lost it. They couldn't stop Jaylon Williams and Chet Holmwin. They had 23 turnovers. Where have you heard this before? They had 23 turnovers and they allowed 19 offensive rebounds, which is really hard to understand. Well, both teams, both teams were insane on the offensive glass.

That's true. At the end of the day, the end of the day, I think the wolves actually had more offensive rebounds. They did. I mean, it was crazy how many offensive rebounds were. of all sides. There was a moment in the third quarter of this game where the Thunder had 23 more shots than the wolves. Yikes.

Now, the wolves had a good fourth quarter. By the way, they scored 41 in the fourth quarter. I kept hearing people criticize, well, I had always two of six in the fourth. I was like, they scored 41 points of the fourth. Yeah, again. Yeah, the criticism should be, for example, Jade McDaniels having two horrendous defensive possessions in the final couple of minutes, including. including on the one wing three that Jaylon Williams hit that ended up being the dagger,

where Jay had the ball to top the key. And Jay McDaniels just basically stood there, didn't guard anybody, and watched Jaylon Williams just run away from him to the wing and just have the easiest catch-and-ch-ch-chute practice three of all time. That was a much bigger reason why they lost the game because Anthony Edwards passed the ball because he'd be a couple of team. James also made this relatively slick spin move on offense thinking he freed himself from Chet Holmgren.

and that basket was 99% made. He skits a spin move on, you know, spins left, which you wouldn't expect is his right-handed, spins left, puts the ball right one inch from the glass, and Chet comes right over the top and cleanly blocks it in one of the signature moments of Chet's early career because it was a huge possession at the time. But the wolves actually got it down,

I think at the end of the game, the shot differential was only 11, which is not good. but that's the Thunder method is the possession game and 23 more shots. I mean, that's where the game's at. Forget about Ant passing the corner. Yes. It's about the math.

Thunder play the math game just like Indiana does in a lot of ways. I mean, that's, again, we keep talking about it, but in different ways they do a lot of the same things. And you can say, hey, there are maybe there are spots where you'd like to see Ant be more aggressive, but I don't want an ant to go jack up 25 terrible shots just for this. sake of jacking up shots. Like bench has tried to coach him away, has successfully coached him away from defaulting to hero ball. I'm not going to hammer a guy for making the right reads and getting off the ball and his

teammates knocking down good looks in a game that he scored 126 points. If you want to criticize Ant, you say, hey, Ant's too good of a player not to make an impact even if he's not scoring. Like, you know, create some havoc on defense or, you know, whatever else. But, like, I'm not going to hammer the guy because the attention to him kept creating an open threes for his teammates and that he was willing to let them, you know, to give the ball up and let them get those shots. For our ESPN website, which I'm looking at right now, Indiana had an offense or Indiana, Minnesota had an offensive rating in that game, 133.2 against the best defense in the league by a mile. So, no, the offense was not the problem. Right.

What do you suppose, I don't know, what do you suppose teams' record is all time in the playoffs with 130 offensive rating? I guess it's pretty high. I don't know what the number is. I guess it's pretty damn high. Yeah. And I mean, they absolutely, listen, it was the second straight game that they scorched the best defense in the NBA, you know, 143. I know. before that one.

It was hyper-aggressive. And, you know, one of the Thunder's adjustments was, hey, the hell with that. He ain't going to beat us. Well, the Thunder definitely played it cool after the game. They definitely acted like they'd been there before. Their demeanor as an organization was very flat. That's what they do. Get back to neutral.

That's part of the Thunder Gargan. Mark Dagonald had a great quote when, when Malika Andrews asked, you know, What did you learn about your team? He said nothing. It was as good of a quote as you're getting from Dag. And I was like, So I don't authorize name name. That's a,

I was like, that's not true. You learned about Jayne Williams. But it was a great quote. Yeah. I liked it. But yet when you were walking down the hall and you would see people in the Thunder party and you would look at him in the eye,

there was a little fire there. They may not have been showing it on the outside, but they were like, oh, boy, that's what we were cooking up. That's what we've been looking for. And I would say that they're not celebrating. No. They're smelling blood. And, dude, again, the runway for the thunder, they're in the moment now. Yeah, yeah.

I understand that. We can look big picture here long term. The runway for this franchise is ridiculous. Now, they'll have some payroll decisions. We don't need to delve into those. But again, they're big three, and it is a big three, 26, 24, 23. And the 23-year-old, you know, there's some obviously durability issues, but also, like, he's just a year and a half into his NBA experience.

That's how much experience he has. The 24-year-old gets significantly better every single season. like going back to being an unheld of recruit going into Santa Clara. Let's just say it very simply. The Thunder are set up to be the dominant team in the NBA for the rest of the decade. Doesn't mean they will be. Doesn't mean they have to be, but that's what they are. They are set up to dominate the league for the rest of the decade.

I remember going to the game where LeBron broke Kareem's scoring record. They played the Thunder. The Thunder won that night. And the best player on the floor was Jalen Williams. He was a rookie. And I was like, oh my God, this guy is really, really good. And by the way, they're all two-way players. I know.

Yep. You know, and they've got a million and seven picks to play with. Yeah, I mean, they are set up to dominate the league for the next six years, including this season, the next five years through 2030. Like, that's just where it sits. We'll see if they do. Got to stay healthy. They got to get lucky, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

They got to get five more wins. But, yes, if you're looking big picture, Well, I got to tell you. That's what's ahead. This town, the thunder, how many houses do you think have thunder paraphernalia outside than McMahon? It's at least 50%. I'm in the storefronts and all that kind of stuff.

You go past apartment buildings and like half of the balconies have thunder flags. Today, when I got to the airport, the Uber driver opened up his trunk and he had a thunder flag draped from the from the back, like inside back mirror. so that the thunder flag draped down. Like that's how you were welcomed with the Uber driver at the airport. And the atmosphere in the arena is insane. Like not only are they all wearing their t-shirts, they are in their seats, loud, ready to rock and roll.

When the lay-up. Yes, they are. Like, forget about opening tip. They're, boy, that pre-game prayer hits and they're, you know, it's go time, baby. Man, I mean, this town is absolutely ready to explain. So, but, dude, 3 a.m. There was like 800 or 1,000 people at the airport welcomed him back last night.

It was a thunderstorm that hit Oklahoma City in the middle of the night. So the thunder had to circle. They, you know, took off after the game, took off around 1130 midnight. And it's about an hour, 45 minute flight. But it took them like almost three hours because they had to circle out over southeastern Oklahoma while the storm passed. And then they landed. And those folks waited through the rain.

I don't care if there were 20 people there. I'm telling you. We're hundreds to greet him at the airport. No one graded me at the airport today, except for the guy with the thunder flag. Well, that was nice. Do we like these series to extend to a game six, either one of them, bontems? I think you guys are going to be going home Thursday morning. I don't think the thunder are losing on their home court the way this thing is played out.

I do think the series is coming back here for game six. I mean, this series has been very competitive. Again, even this game, the way this game went, Pacers were truly incredible offensively in this game. The Knicks still hung around. It was a six-point game with a couple minutes to go. I think on their home court, down 3-1, think the Knicks find a way to get a win. And then that sets up what should be a truly unbelievable atmosphere here in Indiana, Saturday night, 8 o'clock tip all day to get ready for it. And we'll see if the Pacers can close this thing out. But yeah, wouldn't shock me if Indiana comes in there and wins, given the way they've played on the road in the playoffs and in this series.

But I suspect this one go six, and I don't know what you guys think you've been around that series. I'll be very surprised if the Thunder don't get this thing done Wednesday night. Lock this thing up. Yeah, I'm with you. I like the next chances. I'm not like certain on it. I wouldn't put a mortgage payment down on or anything like that. I'd be very surprised if the wolves were able to get another game in Minnesota this season.

You know, they were putting that or they're pulling the floor up as I was doing my Australia. you know, ESPN Australia. Well, it's because they put down the, they put down the links floor. I was there today at the arena, doing NBA today. It was because they put down the links floor. Well, but my point is, as I was having, I was saying, I don't think they're going to put this floor back down this season. You know, the role players jump shots have not traveled so far

in the series for Minnesota. And if that's the case again in game five, forget about it. Well, that's a good point because I don't see any reason why the thunder are changing their defense on Ant. No. I mean, you know, you're, you know, you're, you know, you're, you know, you're, you know, you'll see aunt getting double teamed every single time. Maybe he'll look, maybe they'll do some more ISO with him so that it's harder to bring the double

team. You know, I expect him to try to answer, um, any criticism by, you know, getting up more shots or whatever, but it's not, I mean, it's, you know, what you're, what you're, what you're, what you're looking for is a replication of the role players to deliver. And that's a big ass. Julius Randall obviously needs to play better. Yeah, and Finch's thing with the end is they've got to play them off the ball more. You know, they've got to run stuff.

So it's not a loaded up defense just waiting on them. So I think some of the way to do this is play through Randall more. Randall average seven assists, seven and a half assists the last series. He only's averaging three or maybe even four. This may three or I think three assists. The tough matchup. The tough matchup for Julius. I know.

Well, and again, that's what just like the Pacers offense, the thunder defense makes a lot of people look bad. Like, it's just the way it is. You're right. Well, the patient of offense make the Thunder defense look bad. Listen, Jayden Williams, second team all defense. Lou Dorr, first team all defense. Those guys are, you know, guarding both of the stars. Alex Caruso, you know, certainly an all defensive guy in the past and still of that caliber.

You know, they throw him in the mix. He can guard either one of those dudes or just be the most devastating help defender probably in the playoffs. By the way, check out our colleague Ramona Shelburne. She did a really nice piece on Lou Dort on ESPN.com. I saw Lou last night and I congratulated him on making first team all defense. And he said, did I have your vote? And I said, you had my vote last year. Oh.

Did you just ahead of the trend? Well, you know, that's how I roll. Brown knows it's special, right? Yeah, that's what I'm looking for. I'm brown nose and Lou Dord. Yeah, that's my, that's my... I mean, the man asked him a question when he provided a factual answer.

We've got some news. Mark your calendars. McMahon, do you still have a calendar that you write on? I've got one of them fancy ones of my telephone. Oh, look at you. What do you got going on July 12th? Oh, I'm going to be in Vegas.

There's going to be a fellow named Cooper Flag playing at least one or two games, I would think, for the old Maverick Summer League team. Just going to be hanging out. What are you going to be doing? I'm going to be in Vegas. I haven't been in summer league in years, but somehow I agreed. How did you not go when your discovery of Wendy was there?

Was covering team USA. Actually, I didn't go for that. Bon Temps went for that. You always go to that for me. That's right. I was at both things. You won't say Bon Temps is making it. We won't give the details, but Bon Temes is going to make an extreme effort.

Extreme effort. Make sure he's there because on Saturday. I will be at the live show. You will be at the live show. We'll be at the live show after making an extreme journey. Wait, there's a live show? Yes. So here it is.

July 12th, Saturday night, July 12th, 6 p.m. Vegas time at the Brad Garrett Comedy Club at MGM Grand. Sweet. Is going to be the third annual, because we're pretty much doing one a year. That's all I'm signing up for. The third annual Hoop Collective Live Show. And you can get tickets at HoopLive. Bright.com. I think the link will be live by the time this post, and if it's not, you give it a minute. But yeah, I'm sure we'll have some guests. I'm not promising anything,

but Summer League will be going on. So I'm sure we'll have some good guests. And yeah, come spend the evening with us. It'll be over relatively early. You can hit the strip. It'll be done. I don't stay up late. So it won't be that long. I'll have adult supervision. The IT department's going to be there. Rightfully so. I wouldn't miss a live show. Although she got a little, You got a little, had to tame her down a little bit in Akron's. Yeah, yeah.

I was ready to be done at 7.30 in Akron, much less Vegas. Much less Vegas. All right. So mark it down. Check come, join us. We'll have a good time. And Jackson will be there too.

He's really going to be the star of the show. So, all right. So that's it here on the Hoop Collective. Thank you for watching and listening. Thank you to Jackson, our producer. Thank you to Bontems. Thank you to McMahon. And, hey, we'll talk to you.

next week. Adios amigos.