Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - How Can The Pacers Beat OKC? + What Is Going On In Utah…Again??

Episode Date: June 4, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to preview the NBA Finals matchup between the Indiana Pacers and the Oklahoma City Thunder including how the Pacers can keep this a competitive series and where OKC could struggle. Plus, a surprising hire for the Jazz causes the crew to ask once again, ‘What is going on in Utah?’ Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome for the Hoot Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing ahead of Media Day, which is on Wednesday in Oklahoma City. Joining me from New York City, where he'll be heading down yonder to the OKC region is Tim Bontas.

Hello, everybody. And heading to his second home this postseason, he knows the route to OKC very well, Gate C35, usually. I made that up, is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners, by the time this airs, I will be on the safe side of the Red River. All right, but we talk about the NBA, what you're going to do about this game one. I have had many people in my life in the last 48 hours say to me in passing. I'm really looking forward to this finals. I'm really excited about this finals, more than I expected.

And that was good. I was good. I hope it doesn't let him down because the more I've looked at this, Bond temps, and you know how I feel about the Pacers, you know how I feel about the Pacers. Yes, we'll prop them up as a defense for Cavs Corner since January. Well, listen, since he, if Wendy spends time with you in France, it's a, it's an important thing if you, if we bond in Paris,

I hope that it's a good series. I'll start. Listen, for the Pacers to win this series, Rick Carlisle is going to have to out-coach Mark Dagenal the same way that he out-coached Eric Spolstra during the 2011 finals. And, hey, we all know Spolster is one of the great coaches in the league. Dagonal's certainly has carved out a reputation for being elite.

I mean, he's coach of the year last year. But I think Carlisle is going to have to pull off some Houdini type of stuff, as he did in 2011, to give the Pacers a chance in this series. The guy is one of the best in the league, a game to game, you know, even in-game adjustments. And there's going to have to be some sorcery here. Well, let's go back to that series, because I think that is a decent analog, in part because you have, I mean, it's arguably the biggest lopsided. I thought about that. You know, the Cavs in 2016 were an awesome, awesome thing. That's not, it's not that the Cavs Warriors was not looked at like this. The Cavs had LeBron James on their team. The Pacers do not.

This is probably the closest comparison from a one team being favored going into it ahead of time is is heat maps. And while yes, Rick Carlisle did a tremendous job coaching in that series. The biggest reason the Mavericks won that series was because they had the best player, right? The best player in that series, not the people are. No, that's what I'm going in. There's some footage that has been on earth the last couple days of your buddy J.J. Borea guarding LeBron in that series. Yes, that's, that's... It's even worse than I remembered, McNabb.

Yes, that's what I spoke to Jose Juan today. He's in New York. He's unfortunately, I had to get some hip surgery. Oh. Well, shout out to JJ. Hopefully it feels better soon. But yeah, I mean, look, I agree with you, Brian. I have spent a lot of time thinking about this series over the past week and a half

ever since the patients went up 2-0, and it seemed like it was a very likely outcome that the patients were going to get you. here. And are there outcomes where this is like a long competitive series? Sure, especially if the Thunder really struggled to shoot the ball and the Pacers shoot 50% from three, which they're capable of and they have at times in these playoffs. But I don't think, well, I do think if people tune in, whoever does tune in is going to enjoy what they're watching because I think they're both super fun teams to watch. I agree. I don't think it's going to be a long series, a pick Thunder and five. And the way that isn't going to happen and the Pacers make this.

a long series, is if Tyrese Halliburton is the best player on the court. And if he is going to be the best player on the court, he has to do what he normally does, which is not turn the ball over, which he's probably as good or better than anybody in the league at not turning the ball over. And Big Man has been banging the drum for months about how dominant Oklahoma City's defense is from a turnover perspective and how they're casually getting 20, 25, 30 points off transition in these games. And the other thing he cannot do is be passive. And he has, he has a lot of games where he has eight, 10, 12, 4, 14 points.

And Tyrese cannot be passive in this series. He has to be aggressive getting guys open for shots. And he has to be aggressive scoring. Because I think that's the only way, if he's the best player on the court over seven games, that's the beginning of the formula for Indiana winning the series. But to do that, that's the way he's got to play. All right.

So here's a tough couple of paragraphs for the Pacer's chances from Zach Cram and Kevin Pelton on our staff, who did an analysis of this. Now, this is over the last two seasons, which is four games, Pacers, Thunder. The last two seasons, these teams have generally had the same personnel. Siakum obviously was traded midway through the season. But the way the Pacers played last year, the way the Thunder played last year, comparable. Obviously, they both were final, the Pacers were final four last year. under got beaten the second round. They have had Alex Caruso and Kason Wallace has gotten a lot better.

But here is the stats. In the last, these last two years, four games, Halliburton has averaged 10 field goal attempts per game, his second fewest of any opponent over the last two years, and 0.5 free throw attempts. He's drawn just one shooting foul in the four games, one shooting foul. Now, granted, some of Halliburton's game is he gets a corner turned on you and you grab them. He doesn't have to go to the basket. But still, his 8.5 assists against the thunder over the last two years are the fourth fewest against any opponent. And he has scored just eight points in 10 shot attempts in 122 possessions when he was guarded by Lou Dord. See, there's a problem. Now, Halberton did have 22 points and 11 assists against the thunder this season, but that's a two-game total.

Yeah. But seriously, you nailed the problem here. It's like, okay, hey, it's easy to sit here and say, Hal Burton's got to be aggressive, Hal Burton's got to be the best player, Hal Burton's got to be, you know, this dynamic playmaker. Halberton's got to deal with Lou Dort. And then when Lou Dord.

And Case and Wallace and Alex Caruso and all, and Che Gilz-Ox-X-Xander and all these guys. But beyond that, well, go ahead, McMahon. I don't want to wrap you. It's 94 feet of just, like, all defensive nastiness in his face with Lou Dord. And again, when Lou checks out, it's probably going to be Casein Wallace who might even be better. In some ways, Casein Wallace might be better suited to just annoy the hell out of a guy and smother a guy for 94 feet.

And if it's not those two, it's Alex Caruso. And then if you get into the defense, there's Chet back there or Hartenstein or both. Like Halliburton is an amazing player. he's an amazing player who's able to play at breakneck speed and wide open floor. And that's when he's at his best. He's not like a grinded out type of point guard. And it's just going to be hard to get into the open court with wide open space, you know, playing at a fast pace against his team. Well, and also, Hal Burton particularly loves to find the weak link in the defense and then gash it.

This is the big thing to me. And you saw it in the Nick series. Whenever he got Jalen Brunson in a matchup, he took advantage of it, whether it was to get himself a shot or very often to get other guys a shot. Because like we've talked about, as much as I'm saying, he needs to be aggressive and shoot the ball. Like one of the things that makes him a special player is that he is okay, giving the ball to his teammates, kicking the ball ahead,

like letting Siakum go to work, letting Andrew Nemhart and Aaron Neesmith on the swing go to work. The Thunder not only are a team that scrambles as well as anybody. you can get back to those guys in a way no other team can. But if you go back to game five of the Knicks series, the one game he really did especially little in the game, or not especially little, the one game he really struck.

He had a bet. The Knicks picked him up. Like, I think their pickup point was like 50 or 60 feet up the court. It was the highest they went in the series. Right. Cal Bridges. Like you said,

they've got, the Thunder have several guys that can grab him at the other end line and stay with him the whole time. And they're not sacrificing anything. on the back end. If he wants to go at Shea or he wants to go at even Isaiah Joe, like anybody, they bring it off the bench.

There's not a, there's not a, hey, that guy can't go on anybody. They don't have Brunson in towns to target. And even if you had somebody you wanted to target, even if you wanted to get him on Hartenstein, they,

nobody fights over the top of screens and refuses switches, better than the thunder. Are you, I'm much sure I've ever seen the collection teams who do it. No, Caruso's great at it. Well, like they're all great at it.

So the way you do, do it, the way you manage that is you stay out of the half court. You are in transition as much as humanly possible, which is what they do on an average day anyway. I thought, you know, Mark Dagonald said that today. He was interviewed. He was talking about him and he goes, the thing I respect about him is they play the exact same in January as May and they play the exact same when they're down 20 is when they're up 20. And so not like the Pacers, not like what the Pacers need to do is going to have to take an adjustment. Yeah. More hoop collect. podcast after this.

We'll all be in Oklahoma City for games one and two this week and Indianapolis for games three and four. If we want to go back to Oklahoma City for five and then maybe six pontiffs, there's a couple of things I think the Pacers need to do. You referenced it earlier, and I know that this sounds basic, and I hate that this is often something we talk about when it comes to the modern NBA, but it's, you have to be just level-headed. Pacers have to hit their threes, because the one thing that, it's a thing that is, you

Oklahoma City will do, they will give up three-point attempts. As you've talked about during this postseason, Oklahoma City will sell out on the player or players that they are interested in stopping, which in this case is going to be Halliburton, which in this case means blocking the lane for them. They will leave the shooters, and if they move the ball, you can pass your way through the Thunder defense. You can generate an open shot. The problem is that the guy that gets the open shot isn't always the guy you want

shooting it. The Pacers have been the best three-point shooting team throughout the playoffs. Over 40%. It was, they absolutely obliterated the calves. The calves were the best three-point shooting team percentage-wise throughout the whole season and the Pacers killed them in that end. Oklahoma City themselves are not generally a great three-point shooting team. So one place that you can get the thunder on is you can outscore them in the three-point range. But I know it's surface level analysis. But Bon-Sem's, you've got to make the three-point shooting. Yeah, I mean, in the playoffs, Aaron Neesmith's shooting 50% on over five attempts per game. Andrew Nemhart shooting 48% on almost four attempts for a game.

Pascal Seacom's shooting 46% on three and a half attempts a game. Miles Turner shooting 40% on four attempts for game. Tyreys Halbert is shooting 33% on seven times per game. He's been their worst three-point shooter. So, and he's typically a very high percentage shooter. So, you know, like in the regular season, Andrew Demhart shot 29% from threes. He's been basically all his other stats in the playoffs are the same. same, he's shooting 20% higher from the three point line.

Like, that's a big part of why this team is in the finals. And I think while you're correct, they have to keep making shots. They also need the thunder to have some cold stretch games, which they're very capable of having. Like we talked about it. Lou Dort, in my opinion, won the thunder of the title in game five of that series. We talked about a lot in the Denver series when he hit all those threes in the fourth quarter. He's also capable of missing 20.

He was dreadful offensively for three quarters that night. Well, right. He could miss 25 threes in a row and then make 10 in a row. He's an incredibly streaky. shooter. A lot of their guys are pretty streaky. They can have games or they go five for 25 from three. So I do think, you know, yes, we talk about three point variance a lot. But again, when you're the underdog in the series, which the Pacers are, like their offense has to be good. And they've got to take advantage of any games where the Thunder don't hit shots. Because if they don't win those games,

they're going to have a very hard time in the games they do. Like for example, in the game, these two teams played in March when both sides are mostly healthy, the Thunder shot 17 for 36 from three. The Thunder shoot 47% from three in any game this series. They're going to make 17. Good God. Right. But they're going to get up attempts. Like they shoot a bunch of threes.

But if they shoot well in games this series, it's very hard to see the Pacers winning. And by the way, in that game, Indiana went 14 for 42 and Halliburton went four for nine. So the rest of the team was 10 for 33. See, Ackham is one for five, Aaron Neesmith was one for three, Nemhart was one for four, Turner was Ove for one. So those three guys combined to go three for 13. If they're going three for 13 from three in games in this series, the Pacers are not winning. Like, again, it sounds reductive, it sounds obvious, but like that's going to be a huge battleground

is the Pacers are going to have to win games in this series with their offense, and that means hit a ton of threes, and they're going to need to force the thunder into some misses. And I wouldn't just assume that this. same way that Oklahoma City defended Anthony Edwards is what Tyrese Halliborne will see, or even John Morant for the first two and a half games before he got hurt in that series. Those are guys who, even with Ant becoming, you know, one of the best volume three-point shooters in the league, the number one thing you're worried about with those two guys is just they're so dynamic as drivers and as finishers.

and they're guys that if you can make playing crowds and you can create turnovers where I'm not sure that they're going to have the same like pack the paint type of mentality for Halliburton because really when Halliburton's driving you're not necessarily like he's he's not a bad finisher but that's not the thing that really strikes fear in you when Halliburton is getting in the teeth to your defense

what strikes fear in you is his ability to get in there and then spray it out to all these shooters that surround him. And, you know, obviously they're still going to be aggressive trying to create turnovers, but he is a guy who protects the ball so well that I'm just curious to see if the make-and-playing crowds approach applies as much to Halliburton as it did the previous superstar guards that they've seen during his playoff run. Look, the Thunder always play the same way, right?

They fly around. They try to speed the other teams up. Like we know how they play, right? I feel like, and Mark Degnell's way smarter than us about basketball, obviously. But there are very few teams that are capable of doing this in the way the Thunder are. But I would play Tyrese Halliburton if I had the ability to, and I think the Thunder do, like you play to Cole Yokic, which is to make him a score. And to me, if the Thunder, who never play this way, and so I don't really expect them to,

if you could stay home on all the others, the Thunder can and like say, hey, Tyrese, go score 50. Go score 50 every game. We're not going to let Aaron Neesmith get open for three. We're not going to let Andrew Nemhart get open for three. We're not going to let Miles Turner pop up, pop to the three point line and hit threes. We're going to make you beat us by scoring 50. I don't think the Pacers can win that way. And there's very few teams that actually can guard them that way, like the Knicks had no chance to. But the Thunder can. And so that's what I would do personally. The Thunder can rotate elite physical perimeter defenders on him. I mean, they have four elite, like top of the league elite, perimeter defenders.

Lou Dort, Case Wallace, Alex Crusoe, J. than Williams. I assume Jayden Williams is probably going to spend, and probably Cruz's well, probably will both those two guys will probably see more Seacum, Alberta. Well, and Che Guez-Sawks-Axander is above average too. He's the fifth best of those guys and he's good. Yeah. And then, you know, what's going to be interesting is how much Holmgren and or Hartnstein can factor in as rim protectors because one thing that the Pacers do is they spread you out.

And obviously, Miles Turner, you know, he spots up a few feet behind the arc and you've got to guard him out there. I mean, even Thomas Bryant in game six hit some big threes during that run in the third quarter. against the Knicks. So it will be interesting to see, you know. Miles Turner, just seven of 22 on threes in the conference finals. That was a significant, you know, they're going to look, you don't need Turner to have 25 point games. He's capable of that, but he is good. Like Jackson put the stats in here. We were talking about the three point shooting that the Thunder allow. They allow 12 corner three point attempts a game. That's second amongst all the teams in the playoffs.

And Indiana shoots 47% on those corner threes in the postseason. Some of those are Miles Turner. And Turner needs to hit those because what you're going to do is if you're helping on, if you're staying home on the other wing shooters and you've got Halliburton that you're going to try to play more straight up and you want your big to back in, which is what they did against Ann Edwards. He always had a guy in front of him, if not too. Turner is going to be able to slip out, you know, in ways that go bare, obviously did not.

Yeah. The other thing, the other thing about the way real quick, in ways Nas Reid did not punish them for. Occasionally he did, but for the most part, they were willing to let him shoot it. Well, and the other thing about the Thunder playoff run is let's look at who they play. Like, let's set the first round aside, right? They played Denver in the second round where they gave up about a million corner threes to Russell Westbrook, because they were very happy with Russell Westbrook bombing away from the corner, right? Conference finals, they let Jade McDaniels in particular bomb away from the corner because they weren't really all that worried about Jade McDaniels hitting shots from the corner. The Pacers are a different level of shooting team,

and so I would be a little surprised if they employ, to your point in man, the exact same strategy like that, because I would not be as okay with letting pretty good shooters take those open shots. And the other two things to point out, Miles Turner is not a physical big. He had an extraordinarily hard time with both Carl Towns and especially Mitchell Robinson on the boards. I think Isaiah Hardenstein is going to be a very tough match for him. And I think any second Miles Turner is not on the court, he's going to be able to feast inside, just like Mitchell Robinson did in that series. You've binged Hartnstein the last pod.

No, well, I said, I said I would have him out there any second. To me, I would start Chet and put him on him potentially is one way to go and just man up everybody. But the other way to go is make sure Isaiah Hartnstein in particular is on the court. Every second Miles Turner isn't because they're either having Thomas Bryant or Tony Bradley out there and he can feast on the boards. And the other thing is you saw Delan Wright shut down T.J. McConnell, the second half of that next series. And Delon Wright is, you know, is at a very nice career. But he is nowhere near the guys the Thunder are going to be rolling out there. And a big part of the Pacer's identity is having that second unit with McConnell sort of doing his, you know,

getting in the lane and cutting around and kind of playing a certain style with that second group. I don't like the chances of that working against the Thunder with the way this team is able to guard them. One more thing I'm going to point out, as we know, that it's very important for the Pacers to generate turnovers. It is for the Thunder, too. It's the lifeblood. And I don't want to overestimate the two games in the regular season, but it's what we have. And in the two games, the Thunder turned the ball over 13 times total.

Yeah, I know Neesman didn't play at least one of those. That's true. Yes. I don't think. One of the games was December 26. Our very good friend from Yahoo, Tom Havastrow, had a great nugget that this is the first time since 2007 that the two teams that reached the finals didn't play on Christmas. The irony is the Thunder were in Indiana on Christmas. It just was off night because they played the next day. In the game, in the game they had everybody playing. They had nine turnovers, the Pacers. They forced the Thunder into nine turnovers in the

second game when all their guys played. got 10 points off the turnovers. Or it's seven. No, I'm just saying. I'm just saying. In the one game, Nisema didn't play, but in the one he did where they had all their guys, they didn't turn the, they didn't turn the Thunder over. And the Thunder, the Thunder led the league in turnovers forced and had the fewest

turnovers committed. They averaged 11.7 turnovers committed per game in the regular season. That number has increased in the playoffs to 11.8. They forced, I think it was 17 per game. game during the regular season, and it's like 18 and change in the playoffs. So they had the best turnover margin in the league, like first and first. So the best by far, and their turnover margin is better in the playoffs than it was during the regular season. And by the way, something else to point out, because we only have, I think the second game is even a little more indicative,

given there were more guys out the first one. That's fair. Isaiah Hardenstein played 14 minutes in that game, Kendra Twyman's played 27 off the bench and was plus 23, I would guess that Kenner Twyms is going to have a pretty significant role off the bench in this series for Oklahoma City because Indiana, I would assume, is probably going to lean small, probably going to try to speed the game up and have, I would guess, more of Obie Toppin than either Tony Bradley or Thomas Bryant playing. And any time they do that, the Thunder will probably go with Kendra Williams at the 5. And that has been something that has worked for them. played a lot in the West finals and played well.

And him and Jalen Williams, J. Will, like sometimes, you know, one of those guys that are eighth or ninth guy and sometimes they're the 11th or 12th guy. And both Chet and Jalen Williams, the big, were not available for that game. So even that's a little hard to tell. But yeah, I mean, look, the Thunder, the Thunder just have, they have an answer for just about everything you can throw at them. And I think you, I remember if you said it in a story or to me, Brian. but Pacers do a lot of things really well. The Thunder do just almost all of them a little better. And that's where it's just very hard.

The Pacers are very good at everything and the Thunder are great at it. Yes, and it's just hard. The Pacers' biggest strengths are running right up against what the Thunder are dominant at. And that really gets down to the Pacer's biggest strength is they play fast and with a ton of space and generate wide open threes and easy buckets. and the Thunder obviously are the best in the world at making scoring really, really hard. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

I think I mentioned this in the last podcast. I've mentioned it a little bit, but I mentioned it again, just in case you forgot. The Thunder were 29 and 1 against the Eastern Conference this year. The one loss was in Cleveland, Bontempts. You were there. It was arguably the best regular season game I watched. You know, there were some regular season games that had in, incredible comebacks this year where we saw stuff.

But in terms of playmaking back and forth for 48 minutes, it was right there with the best game I saw. And it took the Cavs playing at the very top level to narrowly beat the Thunder at home once. Yes. And then in the next game, well, in the next game, as we know, when they played in Oklahoma City about nine days later, I don't remember what the score was a few minutes into that game, but it was not pretty. McMahon, you were at that game, weren't you?

Yeah. The score, a few minutes. in was a whole lot and not very much. And by the way, that was another one of those games where the Thunder were Biggless. Both their stuff throughout. And that's, that was the game where Kenny Atkinson said compared their defense to seven pit bulls. He said seven, not five. It's like based in seven.

Well, and in that, and in that game, again, like for so much of this Thunder season, it is remarkable. They won 68 games and Chad Holmgren, I think, missed more than half the games. It did not play in either of those games. But, you know, again, if you're looking at what's a formula for a team built similarly to the Pacers, so not exactly the same, like what's the formula for them to win, right? The calves were plus 10 in free throw attempts and plus five in makes. So we've talked a lot about how physically the Thunder to play, the whole Legion of Boom concept, right? They're going to force the refs to call fouls a lot, sometimes a lot more than they think they should get called for. but I think it works out the wash pretty fairly for them.

Rick is an experienced politician. He knows how to work a ref. Yes, he does. And so obviously, if you can get to the line, no, the Pacers aren't, the Pacers don't really have a lot of guys that really get to the line. That is, I think, one thing that is potentially a problem for them in that way. Like in, you know, in that matchup, you know, obviously,

even in that game, Donovan Mitchell only had four, four foul shot at them. Well, the Thunder also keep players off the line, as you said. Do the Thunder have got any guys who get the guys who get to the line a lot. I don't know. Well, they got one who gets a lot all the time, but the other, the other 14 guys, not so much. That's where they- I was reviewing the, um, the first game that they played on December 26th. Shea had 16 points in the fourth quarter of that game. Uh-huh. They were down going into the fourth, and the thunder came back and won it. And Chad only took three, or, uh, Shea only took three official shots in the

fourth quarter, that's 16 point fourth quarter. So you, you, you did, you just start how that went down. Yes. You do the math. By the way, the guy. The guy. The guy. who is taking the most free throws on the Pacers during the playoffs is Pascal Seaccom at 4.7 per game. Shea's average 9.2 per game. So almost twice as good. Yeah, I mean, the Pacers are, the Pacers are a pretty heavy jump shooting team. They're not a very physical team in terms of getting to the line. They do some of the same stuff as the Thunder. Like Aaron East Smith's a very physical defender. Andrew Emmhart's a pretty physical defender.

But, you know, getting to the line and getting, you know, trying to win that possession game there, think is pretty critical. The Cavs out reap got 12 offensive rebounds in that game, 12 to 9 advantage and offensive rebounds points off turnovers was 21 to 19 in favor in favor of the thunder. But still, you're basically at a draw. If you're close to even in that stat against the thunder, you've done really well. And the two team shot, they both shot 90 shots, which as we've talked about a lot, the thunder, so much of what the thunder do is game is game towards winning the math winning the possession game. So you didn't, the, the Cavs shot the same number of shots. They shot more free throw, so they ended up having more possessions. And they shot 42% from the

line, or from the three point line, and the Thunder were 11 for 31. So, and with all that being said, it was a five point game. So, you know, this is, this is the challenge of playing Oklahoma City. But again, if you're, you know, and I think, obviously we spent a lot of time talking about what can the Pacers do to make it competitive. That's because the vast consensus is going to be, this series shouldn't be very long and shouldn't be very competitive. So if you're looking at it as a neutral saying, or as a Pacer fan, saying, all right, what's the case for our team? Those are the things you have to really lean into to try to beat this team. And that's why I think it's just going to be really hard because they're just, we, this Thunder team was 68 and 14 for a reason. There's,

one of seven teams that ever won 68 games. Like, there's a reason they were that good with the injuries and everything else they had. They're a dominant team that, as you said before, McMahon, they really don't have any weaknesses at all. McMan, if the Pacers look really closely at the Denver series, which you covered, and I realize they're not comparable at all in terms of personnel. But what do you think? Like, if the Pacers employed you to be a consultant, what would you say to them? What do you live in that series? I'd operate Nicole Yolkich to Oklahoma City. That's what I would do. If I went to sneak him out of the team. Yeah, draft a Serbian big man during a Taco Bell commercial. I just honestly, man, like everything the Nuggets do revolves around Joker.

So, I mean, I'm sure Rick and his staff have studied the hell out of it. And there's probably a reason that he's never asked me to be a consultant for him. Maybe they can find some things. I've offered us some advice in the past. I don't know, man, that Nuggets seriously, like the Nuggets made that a series because Joker's just that damn good. Yokic made it a series. Yeah, yeah. No disrespect to David Adelman or Aaron Gordon who played great or Jamalm or anybody else.

But that series went seven games because they have Nicola Yokic and he is inevitable. And he almost was inevitable to the thunder. But, you know, like that's the challenge. Game one, he just absolutely feasted on the glass. You know, they had that crazy come. And, you know, I will say that is one thing that we probably should point out. You know, maybe there's some stuff for the clutch execution in that series, that especially early on, the first two Thunder losses were clutch losses, right? And the Pacers have proven to be very good in those situations.

Well, the Pacers are the best comeback team. I mean, I think they can make a case that are the best comeback team in recent memory, certainly in the playoffs, even in the regular season. Now, as that's the problem with the Thunder got better because of that. series. They got better over the course of that series. I remember we were talking Alex Crusoe when it was 2-1 and he said, I wanted to see Denver. I knew Denver was going to be the team that would push us to greatness, like kind of their peak greatness, you know, because of their intelligence, because of their experience. And the, the Thunder really struggled in the clutch in game one and game three losing those games.

And you remember, Shea was walking off the floor after game three, kind of this big smile and I asked him about him. You know, he said, hey, you know, fans were talking trash. Didn't want them to think they were rattling me, that I was rattled at all. And he said I was, I'm paraphrasing, but basically I was smiling because I know I get an opportunity in the next game and the game after that. And then those next two games, Shea in particular, but the Thunder as a team really were kind of masterful down the stretch.

of closed game. So again, maybe there's some stuff in the clutch execution and and and bogging down the thunder in those clutch situations that the Pacers can take out of that series. But I also firmly believe in the Thunder firmly believe that they were better because of the experience they had to go through during that series against Demper. Well, and that's the hard part too. It's like, okay, Nicole Yolkich, phenomenal rebounder. Go to get into the line, right? Like two of the ways you beat the Thunder are you win the free throw line battle and you crash the boards. Well, the Pacers don't have a lot of guys to get to the line and they're not a very good

rebounding game. So like those are places where you can really gouge the Thunder at times if you play it right. And the paces aren't really equipped to do that. So they have to try to win this series by leaning into the things they're really good at. And the problem is most of them, the thunder are better. And that's where a lot of this I think does come back down to the thing you said earlier in the pod, Brian, which is as reductive as it is, they just just have to be flame throwers from three, and they have to just try to win that margin by as much as they can, because that is the one place where you look at the two teams that say,

the Thunder are capable of shooting 28% from three for a while, and the paces have shown during the playoffs, they've been the best three points shooting the even the playoffs by a lot. And if that gap continues, that's a bunch of points that Thunder have to make up every game, and that is where they could make some head. You know, the other thing Denver did in that series that I could see Carlisle trying to borrow or,

build on is they played a ton of zone defense. And the Thunder struggled with it. Now, again, the fact that the Thunder saw it. They were better against it against Minnesota. Yeah, and they were better against it, certainly in game seven of that series. You know, now Aaron Gordon being on one wheel was also a factor. But again, I go back to the fact that they saw it so much and they struggled against it. And it was kind of this hump that they had to get over, this challenge.

this test they had to pass, I think makes it tougher. But if you're asking me, what can they take from the nuggets potentially? I'm sure that we all know Rick's kind of like. He was one of the first guys to run zone defenses in the league. I mean, he ran a bunch in that, I mean, in that 2011 finals, he went to it a bunch. And he's had, you know, he's had a few days or how many days will be between, what will we? Five, I think. Four or five days.

He'll have. time to, you know, they knew the thunder were coming before that. So they, I'm sure they were spending at least some time thinking about the thunder before that, because that's just the natural thing you have to do in that situation. All right. We had a surprise, at least was surprise to me, but Bontem's broke the story. That was a surprise? No. All right. On Monday, there was a big announcement that came from Utah Jazz, but Tim Bontem's broke the news a few minutes before with Shams Trania, that Austin Ains was leaving his assistant general manager job with the Boston Celtics, where he

won a ring in 2024, and becoming the president of basketball operations of the Utah Jazz. Bontems, I did not know the jazz were looking for a president of basketball operations, and I think the search was relatively short for various reasons. However, it is a change in one of the 30 people who are head of basketball operations of each team, and so Austin Ains gets that job working along. alongside Ford, not quite sure, his father, Danny, who, you know, it's one of the most famous Utah, arguably in sports are the two most famous Utah families in sports, the Smiths, Ryan Smith, who owns the, what do they call him the hockey team?

The mammoth. Okay, they just named them. He owns the hockey team and the jazz. And the Aanges, Danny Aege being one of the, one of Utah. great sons of for athletes. The Miller family's probably still ahead of Ryan Smith, I would think. I would say Ryan's been a little bit more. Larry H. Miller is no longer with us.

I'm just saying. They own the team for decades. I don't need to debate. I would say that Ryan Smith's a little bit more front facing, even though his cap faces backwards. He certainly is. Danny Age is what? It's probably him and Steve Young.

is the most famous BYU athletes probably. I would agree. Uncle Jim McBain. We got AJ DeBance upcoming. I don't think Jim McBan is in the same combo as those two guys. Well, I'll show you what he showed that helicopter to the Super Bowl. I'll contrap. But listen, let's just get this, the nepotism thing out of the way real quick, right?

Because obviously, essentially, Ryan Smith made the hire. You could talk about my story in a minute. I'm just kidding. Go ahead. But the one thing that I'm going to say is, look, you can talk about that. You know, it's an Aange working for an Aange and the chain of command for sure. Austin Ains is a qualified hire. You know, when you're talking to people around the league, nobody said, you're not going to find somebody who's going to say,

hey, this guy doesn't know what he's doing. This guy doesn't have the qualifications to run a front office. Yeah, so part of the one of the, he's been a longstanding and respected member of one of the best organizations in the league and has been for a long time and is universally liked and respected. He also worked very hard. Those two things can be true. He was there. He coached in the G League for several years. He didn't just walk out of college and become an assistant general manager. But that said his last name is Ainge. I mean, there's no dodging it. I don't think there was an extensive search here. No. Ryan Smith figured out who he wanted to hire and he likes hiring. He went

and hired him. He Ains family. And, you know, he went and got him. You know, Bontent, you, you broke the story. Your thoughts on the hire, your thoughts on what this changes in jazz land. Well, look, I was, I certainly think it's a fascinating move for Ryan Smith to do this, right? the fact that it comes a couple of weeks after the jazz had the worst luck possible in the lottery and falling from first to fifth, I think is interesting timing, right? The jazz spent all year very creatively making sure they were going to have the worst record in the league. I thought the most interesting thing said at the press conference today was when Austin was

asked, I think in a circuitous manner, are you guys, I'll just, I'll just read the question and the answer. What is your philosophy on, for lack of a better term, or to be indelicate, tanking or manipulating minutes to player performance in order to achieve better lottery odds? And his answer was, you won't see that this year. Now, that doesn't mean that the jazz are going to win 45 games. But what we did see this year was Walker Kessler was like, repeat. being rested. And Lowry Marketing played, I think, seven games. He played more than seven games, but it felt like seven games.

Jordan Clarkson had one of those nasty cases of Planner Fast Sinaitis that Shade Gildis-Ox-Alexander had a few years back. Yes. So I just think it's interesting that, and look, we'll see what happens. I mean, very famously, Mike Dunleavy Jr., who has done a great job with the Warriors, the day he got the job on Monday, I believe said on the record, we are not trading Jordan pool. and then within 48 hours had, in fact, traded Jordan Poole for Chris Paul.

What Austin Ains said is like there's not going to be kind of the, there's not going to be the league investigation worthy minutes finagling and, you know, the injury reports that require you to score. That's a high bar to clear. It's like, okay. Well, yes, the jazz, the jazz could easily have a bottom five record in the league next year if they try to win every game. because as we just talked about on the last podcast, there are 13 teams at least in the West that are going to enter the season.

And Portland probably believes this that believes they'll at least make the play in tournament or can make the play in tournament. Right. So if you're the only one that isn't in that situation, then even if you try to win every game, like Washington, pretty much tried to win every game this year. But they were playing four rookies and they were not going to win every game. and so therefore they didn't win very many games. And the other thing is, though, like, what will the summer transaction cycle look like?

Because, listen, they had discussions about trade and Larry Markening last summer before giving on the max extension. They never picked up steam, but it wasn't like, you know, there was not a hell no, we won't listen. And I don't see why that would change. You know, I don't think they're going to like reverse course and say, no, we're not taking calls on Colin C. Sexton and on Jordan Clarkson, on John Collins. So, like, they could very easily make a move, multiple moves that are long-term moves that weaken the roster. I'd be surprised if there's anybody on the roster other than the guy they draft number five who would be untouchable. Yeah. And then, you know, but the one thing, so the tanking,

there's a couple things there. Number one, yeah, they accomplished their goal, finish one with the best odds. As you pointed out, they finished fifth in the lottery, which if you look at the odds, if you have the worst record, your most likely spot to land is fifth. This was not like some bad luck. Yeah, that's what Will Dawkins, the GM of the wizard said. I mean, he was putting a little bit of lipstick on a pig, but he was like, But it's true.

You have a 50% chance of finishing fifth. The simple fact of the matter is the league has tried to make it as unfavorable as possible to tank. And that blew up in the face of the teams that were the biggest tankers this year, with the exception of the top sixers. But, you know, so the Jazz lived through that, realized, well, damn, the most likely odds was the worst case scenario given the possibilities, and that's exactly where we landed. And there's definitely some feeling within the organization of, damn, how much did we sacrifice real player development, not quote unquote BS player development, but real player development.

by intentionally not trying to compete, by not putting these guys in situations where you're really actually trying to win, even if you don't have a better team, even if you have a much worse team. You know, by being, hell, I'm just going to say by being dishonest about the players that you're putting on the floor. I mean, really, that's what tanking is. and so how much real player development are you sacrificing and then what's like the what is the long-term detriment to that like those are conversations that have to be had you know about that whole process especially given the the results that they got out of it

well and look austin age work with will hardy in boston those guys know each other he obviously well hard he just got a long-term extension Yes, Will Hardy's not going anywhere. He's obviously worked for his father for a long time. He, you know, Justin Zanick is as good to do it as there is in the league. Those guys, I think, will work together very well. Justin Zanick is a year off of, you know, transplant surgery to save his life. And I think is not necessarily, I don't want to speak for him, but I mean, Justin Zanick is very good at his job. He's extremely well-liked. Not sure his number one priority in life is to make sure he's collaborative.

collected the most power. Well, look, those guys are just going to work together well. I don't think that's going to be, I think that'll be a good partnership. Like, Ryan Smith has invested in the team. Like, I think the jazz organizationally are in good shape overall. But at the end of the day, like, I mean, McManue hit on it, right? They went through this year of misery to get Cooper Flag or hopefully, if not Cooper Flagg, Dylan Harper.

They didn't get one of those guys. Now, the NBA finals are a prime example of how you, don't have to have the first pick in the draft to get a guy who could change your franchise. And this is a very good draft. So maybe they'll draft somebody at five who becomes a superstar. It's certainly possible. By the way, the best team is in jazz history. Donvin Mitchell, 13th overall pick. Carl Malone, 13th overall pick. Stockton, 16. Gobert, 27. But to your point, like the only top three picks, I believe, in this entire finals, at least the only ones who were making them. The only one who's making an impact is Chet.

he's the only one and he's the only one period highest player picked of any kind on the Pacers by them or someone else has Ben Mathur who I believe was picked six or seven and now you know listen it was the OKC tanker to get them but it was the well I know

sensitive subject but it was the really it was the Paul George trade and the ripple effects from Paul George's trades and the ripple effects from both of those right that laid the foundation here that's how Halberton eventually got to to indie and that's how

Shay and Williams got to O'KC and by the way, none of those guys were single-digit lottery picks. They were all 10, 12 in that range. But the thing about, like I said, I think the jazz are really strong

organizationally from everywhere except on the court right now. And I don't mean that facetiously. Like they've got a really good head coach. They've got a really good front office. I think Ryan Smith, since they get the team has proven to be a guy who's active in a positive way. He's investing in the team. They're like everything there, I think, is positive. But the bottom line is the roster is obviously not in a very strong place. They do, I think, to your point, McMahon, have a real decision to make

on what they want to do with Larry Mark and is he a guy who's going to be part of the next really good jazz team or should they go in another direction and move him on? And look, we are looking at this team in the thunder that very well could, be the dominant force in the league for the next few years, right? We'll see what happens. You can't look into a crystal ball and know what's going to happen. But there is well positioned to run the league for a while as any team in recent memory, probably going back to the nascent stage of the Warriors run. So if you're the jazz. Last year Celtics, but. Well, but the last year's Celtics were not. No, but I just mean that last year, it's fair to say that about last year's Boston

team to a point. But that Celtics team had a bit of an expiration date. They were going to be really good for a couple more years, but not several, right? So Utah, if you're the jazz and you're any team in the West, it's why you keep Harpin Brian on why, if you're honest, you'd be, if you're looking for control, as you like to say, control will be to stay in the east, right? If you're the jazz and you're looking up at all these teams in the West that all are loaded for bear just trying to get in the playoffs, that it's a very tall hill to climb to get the team to a place where it's going to be a playoff caliber team. And, you know, it's not, even if, you're not, even if, you're whatever they try to do, it's not an overnight fix.

Like, it's going to take some time and some hits on these draft picks. They have two in this year's draft, five and 21 in the first round. And, you know, they've got to start hitting on draft picks. They've got to start making some moves and figuring things out because it's, they've got a lot of picks. They've got a good front office. They've got a great coach. Like, there's a lot of things, I think, to be optimistic about overall. But at the end of the day, it's a player league and their talent has a ways to go.

before they can realistically be a playoff team in the West. All right, let the record show we did an entire segment on the jazz during NBA Finals week. Why would we do that? All right, before we go, our condolences to our producer, Jackson Agello's grandfather, Carl Ogello, who passed away this week. Carl's 92 years old powerhouse, former Attorney General of the state of Connecticut. That's where the Agello family power base flows out of a Connecticut. That's his own Wikipedia page.

That's a big deal. Do you not mess with the Agello's. I'm saying, now I know why Jackson runs his podcast with such a guest. Jackson, was he a Sally's or a, was he, was Sally's his favorite pizza? Sally's for sure. Yeah, Sally's. Okay. Jackson took me to Sally's last year.

I think I like Pepe's better. Oh, that's analogous. There's some controversy. Well, I might be. Now I've just done it in heart. Now I are not Hartford, but New Haven. Now I'm screwed in New Haven. Anyway, our condolences to you, Jackson, but I never met Carl, but I'm sure he was proud of you. So, and thank you for all your efforts on HOOP Collective. And thank you to Jackson. Of course, Jackson. Thank you to Bons-Empson McMahon.

Thank you for watching, let's see the Hoop Collective. We're going to be talking to you on game days starting for game one. And we're going to be all together and God knows how that's going to go, letting McMahon lose for days on end in Oklahoma City. What could go wrong? No, I'm getting on the right side of the Red River. All they want to talk about there is how crappy the Sooners football program is. Looking forward to that. Hook them and Adios Amigos.