Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Is This The End For The Warriors? + Panic Growing For Knicks & Time For Detroit To Go All-In?

Episode Date: January 21, 2026

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to discuss Jimmy Butler’s torn ACL including the impact on Jimmy’s career and what this means for the future of the Warriors. Then, the crew talks the rising concerns around the Knicks’ abysmal defense of late and overall lack of cohesion before talking if it is time for the Pistons to go all-in on what is becoming a special season. Finally, we assess how Toronto will approach the trade deadline and some strange observations from the All-Star voting.  Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.espn.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello and welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we're doing on Tuesday afternoon. Joining us from the Xfinity Mobile Arena, I think it's called.

I just don't remember. I'm not trying to be flippant in Philadelphia, where he's going to watch the 76 years play the Phoenix Suns on Tuesday night. Is Timont Tems. Hello, everybody. Yes, a battle of two teams that are in wildly different places than they were a year ago, both much happier. And in different places than they were when we thought they were at the start of the season,

where we were both kind of, I mean, I remember when I was in the preseason, I saw Darry over in the Middle East, and I was like, man, I'm really sorry that your roster is so messed up, you know, because of all these injuries and stuff. And he's like, well, we're trying. Actually, if you want the truth, I said, I'm sorry that your injury situation is so bleeped up. And he said, well, we're working very hard to unbleep it. And it's been unbleeped and the suns as well. Joining us from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon.

Howdy, partners, just got a little bit of time at home. I'm waiting on the Warriors to come through. And unfortunately, it's kind of a sad tale for that team at this point. By the way, you may have to speak to the Mavericks who are. They're not doing the tanking thing correctly. They've won three straight blowouts. Well, it's very difficult to out-tank the scrap of Utah Jazz. And frankly, it's very hard to lose to the New York Knicks at this point.

And that's something that. Yeah, we'll get to that in a little bit. We will. But you mentioned the very disappointing developments late Monday night. The Warriors won where they won their 12th out of 16 as they continue to dominate their homestand. But in a move that will potentially have wide-ranging effects both this year and into the future, Jimmy Butler tore his right ACL during the game. Huge bummer for any NBA player, but particularly a player at age 3rd. Our guy, Jeff Stott's, who runs in street clothes, has all the injury database.

He said it's the second oldest player in NBA history. And it's since 2005, since his database, to have a torn ACL. Because frankly, not that many players play that long. And it's obviously a career-threatening injury. So, Bontems, this, obviously the Warriors, we're trying to get some traction. This changes what the Warriors are looking at in the short-term. medium term because there's a trade deadline in two weeks and long term because Jimmy Butler has $50 million on his contract, $50 something million next year.

And, you know, I'm not sure what he's going to be able to do next year. So a league shaking development Monday night. Yeah, I mean, look, Slater and I have been talking really for the past five, six weeks about this current stretch the Warriors are in. They had a 19 game stretch against a lot of teams. A lot of winnable games, a lot of home games, ending with this game tonight, Tuesday night, obviously last night for those listening and watching against the Toronto Raptors where it was a 19 game stretch.

They went into it at 500. And I was like, all right, where are they going to be at the end of this stretch? Can they go 13 and 6? Can they go 12 and 7? Can they go 14 and 5? Can they get 6, 7, 8 games over 500 and really give Mike Dunleavy in the front office of the Warriors reason to be aggressive in trying to improve the team, right? Could they do essentially what they did last year where they were in a similar position?

They made a run in the middle of the season, gave the Warriors reason to go get Jimmy Butler for a modest price, and they went on to make the second round of the playoffs. And as Steve Kerr said at that Faithful Press conference about a month ago on Christmas Eve, they succeeded in giving themselves a chance, which is what they're trying to do every year with Steph Curt. And the challenge now is I don't know how the Warriors give themselves a chance in the short or medium term with this Jimmy Butler contract on the books. It's a very difficult proposition. Even if you want to say, okay, let's say Jimmy Butler comes back less than a year from now. As you said, you're talking about a guy who's in his mid to late 30s, who's got a lot of

miles on him, who already wasn't the most athletic guy, is now trying to come off a knee injury at this stage of his career. That's a hard thing to do. If he takes a year, like Kyrie Irving is probably on pace to take about a year, right? That means he's out until essentially next year's trade deadline. For a team that's got Steph Curry in his late 30s and Draymond Green in his mid to late 30s and is trying to be competitive now, that's a gigantic contract on their books that doesn't allow them to do anything. And you don't know what Jimmy Butler's going to look like

when he comes back. If you want to go into the market and try to use, say you say, all right, Jimmy Butler's sort of just a salary slot. You want to try to trade him. Okay. Well, if you want to try to trade him, the problem is he is now the same sort of empty giant contract on the books of whoever you're trading for.

Let's just make up a deal. So you call Dallas, say, hey, Dallas, you got Anthony Davis. Anthony Davis is going to play. Why don't we do Jimmy Butler for Anthony Davis, right? The problem, well, you just called Dallas. Well, I know. The problem for a team like Dallas, right, is they're trying to save money. They're in theory trying to get out of this Anthony Davis contract.

Now you've got Jimmy Butler on your books. Maybe Jimmy Butler comes back early to middle of next season. looks like the same Jimmy Butler, but that still doesn't allow you to do anything else with that money. And it's just, it all becomes extraordinarily difficult to see what the path forward is other than the Warriors probably just have to wait now,

see where they finish. I would say they need to play Jonathan Cominga the rest of the season, see what he can look like. Because Steve Kerr has repeatedly... How many times have we said that in the last three years? How enthusiastic was Steve Kerr when I asked about Kaminga postgame? Well, absolutely. I mean, Steve, I mean, look, it's an awful situation for Golden State on 100 levels, right?

But at the end of the day, I just don't know what move they. I mean, they were already not good enough. That's it. It's not, there's not a move on the board. I mean, look, the only thing I could say is if in the next two weeks, Yonest Tenacupo announces he wants to be traded. which I do not think it's going to happen. But if he did that, the Warriors could, in theory,

and this is all in theory, to be clear, they have their picks to trade. They have Brandon Pajemski, they have other young guys. You could say to the bucks, the best you're going to do is Jimmy's salary is a make-weight, some young guys on our picks, which wouldn't be the worst trade, particularly if you're Milwaukee,

the best asset they're getting in that trade, is their pick in this year's draft, which could be as high as the second- picking the draft. And that is a world where maybe that is a way out of this situation for Golden State. However, I don't think that's happening. That would require Golden State to then pony up all of its assets for Janus now. I don't think Janus asked for a trade anyway. But the point is, if you're looking at this as a Warriors fan and you're going, how are the Warriors going to be competitive right now, I think the overwhelming likely scenarios, you just have to wait to the summer see where things land.

and then hope that Jimmy Butler is back in the fall because I just don't know what the other path is right now for them. And look, Jimmy being back in the fall is off the optimistic. I mean, you've got Fred Van Vleet trying to come back for the playoffs, seven months removed from an ACL right now. But obviously, I've talked to a lot of people about ACL recovery since Kyrie went down. And I'm told, you know, the return can be anywhere from, I mean, seven months would be historically extreme.

but that eight to 12 month range, but really the guy's not the same again until about 18 months out. And 18 months out for Jimmy, like, man, you're getting, that's his next contract. You're getting way,

deep into his 30s. Yeah, you're getting way deep into his 30s. He's nearing 40 at that point. And look, I don't think that the Warriors, regardless of what was going to happen here, with a healthy Jimmy, even if they took a swing in the trade market,

I don't think they were really going to become contenders this year, but they could have been a fun, competitive team. They had been winning lately. You know, they definitely could have been a team that matched what they did last year where they get to the second round and put up a fight. I think it's, I don't know how they are going to be able to get to the first round at this point. They probably don't fall out of the play in picture, but that's more because that's by default, if nothing else.

And that's also assuming Steph stays healthy, because if Steph gets hurt, even if they're trying to win games, it's going to be hard. But the idea of using Jimmy in a trade when he's owed $57 million next year when he might not play, is like, good luck. Well, it could happen. So first off, first off, Jimmy makes 35% of the cap. Cummiga makes about 15. That's 50% of your cap.

I know they spend over the cap, but that's a huge amount of investment that's not playing. So you're going to have to do something with Cominga, you know, like. play them or trade them, but you can't have 50% of your team, you know, down like that when one of them is healthy. That's number one. Number two is one of the things that when you talk about what Golden State was going to do, it was like, well, you know, if they're going to make a huge trade, you know, if they're going to chase. And I don't want to get stuck to any players now because aggregation. But if they were going to make a trade, you know, you're looking at players who are making 40, 50 million. And the problem that they were running into, well, well, they're not trading.

Steph, they're not trading Butler. And are they really throwing Draymond into a trade with Jonathan Cominga? That answer was, you know, very dubious, very unlikely. Like, you know, there was some like, well, what about this? You know, this was. So one thing I will say, and I can't see it happening now, but if you get to the summer and you're looking at Jimmy Butler as a, you're then looking at him as an expiring contract, I think it's 56 million next year.

That's 56.8. Okay, 57. it makes it a little bit more feasible for Golden State to entertain bigger contracts to trade for. Not in a good way. It's a consequence. It's not a, it's a consequence of losing it. But now at least their decision making becomes a little bit more clear. And I'll point out that, you know, in January, which was eight games, you know, Butler was playing his best basketball.

I'm looking at his stats from the last eight games, 21 points, five and a half rebounds, five assists, shooting 53% from the field. Like he was just powering up and really helping them. So, you know, like as you try to project what they're going to be, like they're losing a guy who was driving this streak. So, you know, I agree with you, Bontemps. I think it's unlikely that we see anything happen the next two weeks. But I do think that, unfortunately, and I don't mean to be crude because this guy is, you know, is still sitting, you know, on a couch, like not even had surgery yet. But when you talk to people in the league today, they're like, they might have to trade them.

They might have to. This summer before the deadline. No, I don't think. I don't think the flight deadlines feasible. And so this becomes a loss season, which is a shame. Again, I don't think they were going to be contenders, but they just won 12 of 15 with Jimmy as a driver. Well, I mean, probably, really. It's a lost season in terms of having a realistic chance to have a chance of making a run.

They're not making, unless they make a trade between now and February 5th, which will hold out that possibility. What hope are you holding out here, Wendy? Just because I've been in the NBA or I've been around the NBA for 24 years and I've seen stuff. So I'm just not trying to close doors. I would say without a trade, you can't logically make an argument that they can do what Steve Kerr said they hope to do, which is have a chance to make a run. In the West especially. Right. If they make a trade, okay, then we'll see. Like, you know, I don't know what will happen if they do that.

But if they don't move Jimmy between now and then, I just struggle to see the deal they're going to make that's going to allow them to have a chance. And it's not through any fault of their own. It's just like Jimmy's awesome. And even with Jimmy and Steph, they still were a team that occasionally. had really high highs. And yes, they've done very well in this stretch with a ton of home games with a lot of winnable games. But I don't think any of us were sitting here 24 hours ago thinking they can beat the Thunder. They could beat the wolves. They could beat the Spurs. They could beat the Rockets. They could beat the Nuggets. Like, they could maybe get the six. They could maybe win a series if it broke,

right? But, you know, we were looking at them as like, okay, if they turn Cominga into another piece, okay, maybe then they can make a little run. But that was assuming it was Jimmy and Steph at a piece. And in that case, Draymond's still being a very good defensive player for them. Now, it stinks, but it's just, it's hard to see, it's just hard to see how they get there.

And it's a sick for Jimmy Butler. Like, this is a guy who's had an incredible career, a Hall of Fame player. Obviously, he had a great run in Miami. I didn't end great, but, you know, getting to a couple finals, like, you know, he's, He's had a great career.

And this, this added, you know, it's been a, it's been fun seeing him in Golden State. Like him and stuff have been a fun combo. And like, they had success last year and they had a chance to be a factor this year. And, you know, I mean, he's, he's a maniac worker. If there's anybody who's going to come back from this thing in a shorter time, it is probably Jimmy. But it's a lot to ask, like McMahon said. And, you know, it's just, it's just a bummer. It's just a bummer for them.

And it, you know, it, for a market that already was limited in terms of, of buyers seemingly. The Warriors seem like a buyer. And if you're, if you're somebody that's just interested generally in trades happening, I think this makes it harder for trades to happen too. Yeah, although maybe they come off Cumminga a little bit more liberally depending on, you know, depending on what they're going to do. I think it also depends on like, do they really intend to play Kaminka? Like, I know, I know it sounds, I know it sounds like common sense. You lose this guy. you just, you can't have a player of that level, you know, inactive. Well, especially when Steve has repeated, the thing Steve has said over and over again

is you can't play him, Draymond and Jimmy together, and he needs to play in long stretches. Well, now Jimmy's not playing. The spot is there. So I feel like if for nothing else for the, for his value going forward, if you want to try to get the most out of him, you have to have some detente and play him. If you're looking for something. You know, yes, build up Kuminga's value because he does have a very tradable contract, a team option for next year.

So if you pick it up, you becomes expiring and a prospect player. More Hoop Collective podcast after this. Bontemps, you left New York for the weekend and all hell broke loose. It was breaking loose before. Right. So the Knicks got blasted on Monday by the, I shouldn't say they're tanking Mavericks. They're not tanking, but they're decimated.

I mean, they're a Mavericks team that's got two max players who aren't active right now. They're a Mavs team. Look, sure, Cooper Fag played, but it was Musa Sise, who was just devastating the Knicks. And you know why he was devastating the Knicks? Because he plays hard. You know what the Knicks aren't doing right now? Playing hard. Well, they were down by 30 in the first half of that game, or close to it.

Max Christie, lighting them up, too. Max Christie had a whole bunch of threes. Okay, so the Knicks have lost nine of 11. If you go back and look, you know, they won the NBA Cup in Vegas. I think they got to 23 and 9, I think, at one point, their record. And so that's not a small sample size. That's, you know, more than a third of the season. And, you know, they're two and nine, I believe, basically since.

The curse of the ribbon. In that stretch, they've had a bottom five offense and a bottom five defense. Between the opening day and Christmas, they had the number three offense in the league. They, I think in this 11-game stretch are like 27th or 26th. 25th. 25th. And defensively, they're 28th. By the way, two and nine, tied for the worst record in the league during that stretch.

Yeah. With? I don't even know. actually just about to re-look that up, but it's in several teams, Utah, Brooklyn, and New Orleans. Yeah, that's the terrible tanking and tanking. And then the Knicks. The title contending New York Knicks, as far as Dolan's concerned.

So Josh, yeah, we'll get to that. So Josh Hart missed some games. Brunson missed some games, but they both were back for this one. Miles McBride missed some games in there. He was in, I mean, they're healthy right now. And, you know, they did shoot the ball. ball. So they had a favorable schedule early on, by the time. I just remember they had like

at one point they had like six or maybe six or seven more six seven. Is that still a thing? I'm afraid to do the thing because of the camera. Yeah, I don't engage the AI. They had a favorable schedule coming out but they were really chugging on offense. I think they, in the month of

December, I think they shot 41% on three pointers, which is, I think was number one. And they've come way back. I had Stats Williams look this up because in talking to some folks in New York, it been mentioned to me that, you know, you hear this time to time, you hear me talk about it, but, you know, shooting luck, shooting variants. The, the, the, in this 11 game stretch, the, they're shooting much worse than,

than their, they're 27th in, um, shooting variants. In other words, they're, I, I hear you, but they. I know. I don't even like saying it. Let's not even talk about whether they're making shots. I know. They're not making shots. If you don't guard better than they're guarding, if you don't put forth more effort than they are, like Mitchell Robinson looks like the only guy who's playing hard. And they can't play in that many minutes. I mean, you know, he's a very limited on-purpose role player right now.

Yeah, there is a rot in the soul of this team right now. Like, seriously, how else do you explain a team that is supposed to be? a title contender, going two and nine with this bat of a defense. And you've got the Mavericks coming into Madison Square Garden for a nationally televised game on MLK Day. And that's the effort that you put up? I mean, that is a – the Mavericks missing two max players. The Mavericks who are limping towards a single-digit lottery pick blew you out of your building in front of a national TV audience. I mean, this is a complete embarrassment for a team that fired their coach in the summer for the crime of not winning the conference finals that they got to.

There's some real issues that are much deeper rooted than shooting variants with the New York Knicks right now. Agree. So, you know, I think there was some red flags on this West Coast trip that they went on. This game that they played in San Francisco, where they lost to the Warriors, and Draymond Green, like, you know, had a flagrant foul. He just tackled Carl Towns at one point. And then after the game, Nick's fans, and I think, you know, some players noticed that Mike was embracing Draymond. They obviously won a championship together.

Didn't exactly defend him in the postgame comments either, which was definitely noticed. Well, that was the situation also where Carl had gotten a few fouls in that game, which, you know, he fouls. It's he rebounds and he fouls. You know, these are two things that Carl Towns are going to do. And I think Carl wanted Mike to review them and Mike didn't. And, you know, maybe he had his analysts there saying you're not going to get him. I don't know. But like that created a cold wind through the locker room.

And then they go to Sacramento. Well, actually, they were in Sacramento right before that. And, you know, this was Mike Brown's return game to, like, you know, go back to Sacramento. And the Knicks completely rolled over in that game. There was no fight for their coach in that game. So there's that. There's a fact that, you know, Mike and Carl Towns have not had chemistry in regards to, you know, Mike has not shown interest in, you know, setting the offense up for towns.

Like that was something that was sort of established in the preseason. All season. Going back to the very start of the year, that's been an ongoing thing. And Towns has still put up good numbers. His shooting percentages are down. But, you know, he had 18 rebounds in this game against the Mavericks. So there's that.

You know, Bridges has... Bridges is actually shooting better from three than he did last year. His numbers last year were bad. But, like, Bridges hasn't been that his best. Ogen-Anobie had that injury. I feel like he... I don't feel like he's... played terribly. His shooting

percentages are okay over the last time. Nobody's played well. Nobody's played well. I mean, I mean I meant over the course of the season. Like those two guys over the course of the season have played well. I know what's playing well lately. They fired Tibbs and

they look like a team that is rolling over on their coach midway through his first season. Like there's not a nice way to put this. And, you know, people point the finger at Cap because him you know, his issues with Mike Brown have been kind of like that weird little

cold war has been kind of front and center. It'd be one thing if he was an exception here. If you looked at, well, that one guy is the problem. You can't scapegoat cat and say he's the reason that the whole team is playing with minimal effort right now. I mean, you've got Jaylon Brunson midway through the second quarter trying to give a rock-ra speech and they went out and bad went worse after that.

Well, by the way, so Ramona Shelvin reported on Tuesday that after the game, Brunson called a players-only meeting. I don't know whether you think that gets anything done. But, you know, in this meeting, supposedly, according to Ramona, they emphasize that getting them out of this is in that room, not the coaching staff, that they've got to do it as a team. So, you know, to note that their next game is against Brooklyn at home.

If there's a get-well team, it's against Brooklyn. But Brooklyn is going to play hard. That is a fraught game. That is a fraught game for the home team. I will just say that. James Dolan left at halftime of Monday's game, and I would advise the Knicks to not lose to the Nets at the garden in the middle of this stretch. I would just advise that.

What's it going to do, fire the coach halfway through a season, that he fired a coach who was successful? I'm just telling you. I've been in New York a long time, and the Nets have all the Nicks picks going out in the future, They obviously made this trade, which they hadn't made a trade in 40 years before they made that trade. There is famously animus between the two franchises for a variety of reasons. And I just would advise the Knicks to not lose to the Nets at home in the middle of this stretch.

Do you think the feature story that I published on Tuesday about Mike Brown and Jordy Fernandez's 20-year relationship will be getting lots of flowers and high praise in New York? I would assume no at the moment. Sometimes you have good timing with stories and sometimes you don't. Sometimes you don't. But it's a nice story about Joydie Fernandez and Mike Brown. Yes. You could be in a month. The Knicks last year under Tom Thibodeau,

the Knicks were a very good offensive team and they were an above average defensive team. Not way above average, but they were fifth and 13th in offensive rating. And 13th was about as good as you could hope to do, in my opinion, defensively, with a team anchored by Jalen Brunson and Carl Thounds. That is a challenging thing to try to navigate. And it's something that Tom Thibito did a pretty good job up. And even before this stretch, if you go back to December 30th, the day before they had the collapse against the spurs on New Year's Eve that started

this two and nine spiral they're in, the Knicks were third in offense, which is very good, obviously, but they weren't going to be a very good offensive team. and they were down to 16th in defense. So they were already a little worse, even with the hot start they were on. And to your point, Brian, yes, they haven't hit shots in this stretch. But to me, the fact that the 28th in defense, and as McMahon laid out, when you're talking about... And better than who? Let's just say...

Better than Brooklyn and Utah, I believe, are the two teams. I think that's right. It's a full speed ahead to trying to maximize their odds in the lottery. Exactly. So when you look at it, that way. They're trying to make Jordy Fernandez play seven rookies at one time. Can you play seven rookies?

I would also assume that the Brooklyn Nets will be going all out to win this game on Wednesday. I think that might be that way. And not another one the rest of the season. I think that might be true. The games against the NICs, I think they play one more time. I think they play one more time. I suspect they're going to be interested to win. I think that is exactly right, Pontell.

Again, I've been around these two teams. for a long time. I suspect they're going to want to win the game. Doesn't mean they will. And maybe the players only, I mean, players only mean it can't hurt. I mean,

nothing can hurt at this point. The Knicks organization, and I'm talking about Jim Dolan and Leon Rose, is number one, highly invested in this particular roster. Okay? You know, well,

let's remind everybody to that point. Jim Dolan hadn't done an interview in two years. And he goes on the cartons show two weeks ago. He did go on, he hadn't done an interview in two years. Right. Well, he took questions from me. He hadn't done an interview in two years.

In two years, he comes back and does the carton show and says, quote, we got to make the finals and we should win them. Since then, the Knicks have gone two and six. And this was after refusing to raise the ribbon for the NBA Cup. That's right. So first off, they have heavily invested in this team. They have, you know, extended all these players, extended OG, extended bridges, traded for towns.

The Brunson thing is a no-brainer. And after they had their best season in 25 years, they fired the coach. They fired the coach. Then look, someday we'll have a... After years of infighting, by the way. Someday we'll have a 30-for-30 on the talks between the Nix and the bucks that happened in August about what went on there. But if the Nix really wanted to trade for Yannis, then, it didn't show because it never really got traction.

So they, and that's pretty much what Jim Dolan said on WFAN. He was like, I've learned not to... to chase us a shiny object. So they are heavily invested in this roster and in Mike Brown, who I agree, when they fired Tibbs, that wasn't the guy that thought they were going to hire. But however, they have hired him and they have backed him up and he has had success. Whatever you want to call the NBA Cup, they won it. Okay. Listen, until December 30th, things were fine.

I agree. And so that's why I believe that the organization is probably got to stick with it. because they're too deep in. And that includes trades and the coach. That's why I say, I would advise them to beat the Nets. That's not with any knowledge of anything, to be clear, but I would advise them to not lose to the Brooklyn Nets on Wednesday. I would agree.

What I tell you, boys, about the first opponent that a Nix coach has to beat the New York Nix. Well, the Celtics are on the list, too. No, the NICs coach has to beat the New York NICs first because it's such a challenging culture. And that's why they haven't had success in a quarter century until these last couple years. The culture starts at the very, very top. And there's culture rot in that franchise right now. The one thing I will say is despite losing 9 of 11, they are still in third place. They only lost one spot in the standings.

And they're two games in the lost column behind Boston. But Boston and the Knicks do not look close in the standings. And we're going to talk about that. are two games in the loss column. I had a seventh. Maybe they can raise a playing championship banner. More hoop collective podcast after this. So we mentioned that the Celtics are now the two seed needs.

They actually have been for a few days now. They played a great game against the one seed on Martin Luther King Day. In Detroit, by the way, so Detroit wins that game late. the Celtics have had, has still been playing well. I went back and looked. So the, the Thunder held the calves

to their worst offensive game all year, maybe in like several years on Martin Luther King Day. And I will just say this about the Cavs. You know, they're dealing with more injuries. Darius Carlin is out. They said seven to ten days, but it's going to be longer.

Last year, you know, it was in January when the Cavs had that game against the Thunder. It was one of the best regular season games of last. year and the calves won that game and it was like oh like you know maybe the calves would have a fighter's chance you know against the thunder in a series they lost this one by 30 and on their home court and you're not saying that and the thunder are banged up no jalen Williams um no Isaiah

hardinstein and uh Alex Cruser got hurt in that game and left so obviously the other jason williams did too that's right so uh you know you're talking about the nick struggling the calves those are the teams that we thought would be one, two in the east. Not getting it done. The teams that are one, two in the east, that are getting it done, Detroit and Boston. So, Bontemps, I went and looked this up. So anyway, where I started was Thunder defense, you know, bringing the calves to their knees, like they bring every, you know, as almost every opponent, like terrible shooting

percentage, super high turnovers. That always happens against the Thunder because that's who they are. But you go back to December 1st. So we're talking six, seven weeks now. The best defense in the league has been owned by the Pistons. And they're number two for the year, and there's a gap between the Thunder and the Pistons. There's just about as big of a gap between the Pistons and the third-ranked spurs. The Pistons are an elite defensive team, an elite defensive team with young star power.

That is, they have as big of a lead in the Eastern Conference right now as the Thunder do in the West. They are on a 62-win pace. They're 31 and 10 at the halfway mark. They are tied with Boston for second in net rating at 7.4 plus per 100. As McMahon said, they're second in the league in defense. For the whole season, their second league in defense. And they're 11th in offense. And to me, at this point, watching the game last night,

I still am a little hesitant on Detroit in the playoffs because they only have one guy who could dribble. And like when it gets down to it, Cade Cunningham is awesome. And like last night he went four for 17. They trust. They have a number of guards, but it's about when it gets down to it. One creator.

One real deal creator. Who, by the way, has it real quick aside. Yeah. I know the all-star voting with the players is wonky and laughable, like, friend of the pod. George Nying. Yeah, he deserved those 10 votes he got. He got 10 votes. Bronny James got two votes.

I do think it should be point out that the players voted their number one highest vocator among the players in the East. was Cade. So talk about a respect thing. Well, look, Cade last night had 14 assists and no turnovers. So, yes, he went four for 17 from the field. But he has been awesome. And he is having a hell of a season, deserving All-Star Star Star Starter,

deserving guy in the MVP race. All of that is true. But Detroit is in the same situation, I would say, that we talked about with Oklahoma City all of last year, which was, was Jalen Williams good enough? to be the second perimeter score that you really need to be a true championship contending team.

Now, Jalen Williams went on to have 40 points in the finals with busted wrist. He proved he was good enough to do that, right? If you look at this Pistons team, Tobias Harris had 25 yesterday. Tobias Harris is a good vet. Tobias Harris is not that guy in the playoffs. Jaden Ivy, you know.

Well, Tobias is going to have 40 in the finals. Now mark it down. Listen, I hope he does. Tobias is an awesome dude. That would be a great story. He is a great guy. Jade Nivey played 17 minutes off the bench, hit a couple shots, but Jade Nivey was drafted to be that sort of guy to this point through injuries

and whatever else. He hasn't been that guy. So with where Detroit is in the standings, I'm not saying they have to push all their chips in, but this season has gone so well, and they are in such a strong position that I'll be fascinated to see what they do because if they can get another legitimate threat on the perimeter next to Cade, so it's not just Cade against whatever defense is going up against him.

Because we know in the playoffs, if they're going up against somebody in a series, they're going to be completely loaded up to stop Cade. And in this game last night, the Celtics go 13 for 41 from 3. Derek White was 1 for 11 and 0 for 6 from 3. Like, he's probably going to be better than that in a playoff series. Like Jason Tatum could be back. He had a 50-minute workout in front of the media for after shoot around on Monday. I would take that as a clear indication.

that Jason Tatum is working to get back and wanted people to see he was out there. It was not a mistake. He did it in front of the media. Yeah, because there's plenty of times for guys work out. Hey, hey, hey, hey, the bowl's closed. 100%. And if he wanted the bowl closed. That's commonplace from a guy coming back from injury.

Absolutely. If Jason Taylor wanted the bowl to be closed, the bowl would have been closed. And the bowl was not closed. So if you're looking at this matchup last night and you're Detroit, I mean, look, we just talked about it. The Knicks are a mess. the calves are a mess. All these other, you know, Phillies had been very up and down, all sorts of obvious giant injury questions.

Orlando has both been ineffective and has big injury questions. Like all these teams in the East have big question marks. And Detroit to this point has a rock solid defense. They've got a legitimate superstar player now in Cade. Like they have all the pieces you would want to be a legitimate championship threat except for that second score. And it will be fascinating to see if, they go try to get that guy between now and February 5th.

What was the Mori principle? The 5%. Yeah. It's the 5% chance. I'd say they qualify. They're on pace for 62 wins. They qualify there. But Fontaine, if you compared them to OKC last year, I think they are more in the mind frame of OKC the previous year.

We remember, what did OKC do that previous year at the deadline? They ordered their breakfast. But yeah, they based they traded for, or they finished. They were finishing the breakfast at that point. But they traded for Gordon Hayward, which is essentially a move that cleared cap space that summer. They were hoping he was going to contribute a little bit. It just was that was really. Yes, and he was a dud.

But it cleared the cap space that summer for them to go get Isaiah Hartnstein. And they actually facilitated a move. They facilitated Daniel Gaffer to Dallas. They gave them a match for their pick then to get a swap in 28th. They're kind of rubbing their hands together. about that right now. And I point this out because, you know, the pistons came through Dallas recently. I talked to some of their folks. They are very much in a patient, methodical mindset. I'm not going to lie, when I mentioned Jaron Jackson Jr. to some people, you know, you could see

a little twinkle in their eyes. But so opportunistic, but my, my, they're talking more, hey, we've got that shrewder exception. We could use that. to facilitate a deal, you know, gets another asset, you know, probably like a first round pick or something like that. They're more in that mindset than they are the finishing, oh, we've got to get the finishing piece now. And part of that, though, is they want to give the guys that they have a chance to prove who they are or who they're not come playoff time.

The other thing is they didn't get an extension done with Jalen Duren. I'm just here to tell you, what he wanted is. what he's going to get, maybe a little bit more than that. This is going to become a very expensive roster soon. So just like OKC a couple years ago, their decisions aren't just about this playoff from, but about trying to keep a window extended for as long as possible. That's all fine.

And I'm not saying they need to empty the chamber to get something, like trade all the picks for something now. I'm not saying they've got to do that. But they're 31 and 10. Like, this is not. like this is not Oklahoma City. It's just not. It's a totally different situation.

And the Thunder had a great team for the better part of a decade, were bad for a year and a half, and then we're right back again. The pistons have been mired in disaster land for a generation. And the Eastern Conference is also not the West. This is a free way of space for them to get in. And again, I don't think they've got to. I'm not advocating trade all their picks and get some guy. I'm not saying they got to do that.

But like they could just get another reliable perimeter score to plug in there. Let me ask you this. Would you, if you're Trajan Langdon and he calls you, Trajan is calling you for advice. What do you think about Michael Porter Jr.? Well, I'll tell you, the guy that I really want the pistons to get, who they probably can't get and I don't know what his health status would be, the guy they need is Kyrie Irving.

And I don't know if Kyrie is going to be available. Well, if I was Trajan Langdon, I would want to know where Kyrie's health is at and what the chances of him playing are. That's the call I'd be making. Like Michael Porter would help them, but I don't think Michael Porter is changing their destiny, really. But Kyrie Irving, the realized version of Kyrie Irving,

playing next to Kade, like he played next to Luca, like he played next to LeBron as a proven playoff score. That is exactly right. I mean, that is... That's who they need. The thing about Kyrie is that the reason he's such a good off guard, like combo guard playing off a guy like LeBron or... I mean, I would...

Or Luca, who he went to a finals with? No, it's because they can take... That's his role. Yeah. Well, he didn't always admit that that was his role, but he's now got the four finals playing alongside those types of guys. Yeah, I just, you know, listen, you can make calls. I can just tell you the Mavericks very much you're planning for Kyrie.

No, I'm not a concept. Yes, I'm not saying it's happening again. There's other players like that who maybe aren't as good as Kyrie who fit that. That's like, I don't want to go down on LeBron rabbit hole, but that's one of the, you know, LeBron had two 61 seasons playing alongside Mo Williams because while Mill Williams isn't Kyrie Irving, he's the same type of player. Right. And, you know, I guess, let me take a.

let me put a Pistons Homer hat on. Are we sure that Jaden Ivy can't be some version of that? We're not sure, but I don't know if he's going to be that by this playoffs, which is what Bontem's point is. And the other thing is Jaden Ivy is about to be a restricted free agent, and I'm not sure what his future is there. And again, look, if the Pistons don't do anything, I'll understand it. And to be clear, I do not think they should make some rafts trade

and trade two or three first for some mediocre player to, like, fit in. Like, I brought up Kyrie for a reason. Like, he's on a short-term deal. He's the exact skill set they need. If he was healthy and available and they could get him, you plug him into that team, I would tell you, I think Detroit could win the title. I wouldn't bet on it.

But, like, right now, their offense isn't good enough to win the title, I don't think, against the elite teams. Yeah, half-court offense. They need to get, better there. I would certainly agree with that. And look, we bring up the Pistons and people are kind of wondering about the Pistons, not just because of where their record is, but if they want to be aggressive, they absolutely can. They have Tobias Harris's expiring contract, which is a nice number. You know, Jay Nivey's the kind of guy who teams would be interested in in a trade as a young

player flyer. You know, they've got some other guys like that. And they have their picks moving forward. Like if the Pistons want to be aggressive, they are well positioned to do so. I just, the messaging they've given out is that their mentality is not aggressiveness, opportunistic maybe, not aggressiveness. I think that mentality is reasonable, but we are now at midseason on their 31 and 10. And they've been so good that they've at least opened the door. And look, maybe it is a deal like the Gordon Hayward deal. Maybe it is a veteran player that they can get for not a huge,

price that fits in where they're at and it leaves them open to then make the moves in the summer to get there, Isaiah Hardenstein and Alex Caruso, like the Warriors, like the Thunder did, that then propelled the Thunder forward the next year. Maybe that's what happened. But I would just like them to do something between now and the deadline to improve this team. Because yeah, you're right. They could use the Shruder thing to take in money. It could do different things. But like, you're only going to get so many chances to have this kind of season. And it's just sitting right there for them. And it will be fascinating to see what they do.

There was a very, what I thought was a fascinating story on SportsNet out of Canada on Tuesday by Michael Grange, who's covered the team imprinted on television for probably decades now, a long time. Longer than you, Grange. A much better golfer than you, Wendy. And I hear he's probably a better pickup basketball player than me, which, you know, that's... Is that right? I hear he can hope. I think you might have better hips and knees than him at this point.

Then he's in trouble. Go on. He had a very good story where he had a very interesting quote from Keith Pelley, who was the president and CEO of Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment. Just so you know, like there's this one giant entity that owns the Maple Leafs, the Raptors, the Blue Jays, the Toronto FC, the Marley's, their minor league hockey team, probably other stuff. Oh, the Argonauts, I think they all owned by the same thing.

And for years, they were owned by two giant cable companies for the most part. And later this year, it will all come under one umbrella, the Rogers Corporation, which is run by this guy, Ed Rogers, who will be the new governor. Right now, there's Larry Tanenbaum, who's actually the chairman of the board of governors. He's a longtime board of governors. That's just housekeeping. The point is there's transition happening in Toronto. And as part of that transition, Missai Ujuri was let go last year, and Bobby Webster, their longtime general manager, was promoted to being the head of basketball operations.

The reason we say all this is that the point of this story that Michael Grange put out, which is very relevant, is that Keith Pelley went on the record, which is not something you see normally in February near the trade deadline. And he said, by the way, one of the whispers that had, and Michael refers to his stuff. is absolutely true. What are you laughing at? Get to the quote and then we'll put it in got that. I tried to set it up. One of the whispers is that Bobby Webster was on a short contract and that he was under some pressure to improve the roster and that that was going to be a fact with the trade

deadline. So all that being said, quote, there is no pressure regarding the trade deadline or Bobby Webster's contract, said Pelley. He is 100% aware of that. The team is moving in the right direction. direction, and I'm convinced Bobby will make the right moves at the right time to make us better. This team under Bobby's direction will contend for championships. He also said that they were working on a contract extension. The reason that is relevant, Fontemps, is because the Raptors have been

connected to John Moran, had been connected to some other names. And frankly, I have heard they've been more aggressive than average in looking for their value of their players. And I also suspect that going on the record right now was an effort to make sure that that rumor that was going through the league was tamped down. So I've considered that done. We don't see this every day from the Raptors or from a sitting CEO all going on the record. Yeah. And just for one piece of housekeeping, so the Blue Jays are separate from the rest of that, but they're now all owned. The reason it's relevant is they've been owned by Rogers for a long time. And over the past year and a half, they're not part of Maple Leaf Sports Entertainment, but they're same owners.

But over the past year and a half, Rogers has consolidated its holdings in MLSE. And later this year, well, basically own all of MLSE. And that they will, whether they're technically part of it or not, it's all going to be under the same group. And that's where, as you said, all these changes have happened with the Raptors. As Igeri is out. They had to search this summer. They said, Bobby Webster is going to run the team.

Now the team is off to a good start. They're currently fourth in the east right now. Half game behind the Knicks and third. there has been chatter about them being interested in doing stuff. As we've talked about, the thing that's different about the Raptors than a lot of these other teams, whether it's Atlanta or Golden State or Miami,

any of these other teams we've talked about as in terms of what they potentially do is they have a lot of contracts going out a long time. They're not set up to be free and clear money-wise. So it did make more sense to me for them to say, trade for Anthony Davis than some of these other teams or if you're interested in job or anything, to at least entertain the idea of John Morant,

though I had not thought they were much of a suitor ultimately for him either. And yeah, you're right. It is interesting that they came out and said this, particularly in light of all of these things that are coming to a head with the organization and with the larger organization of MLSE. And I do think the Raptors are an interesting team to watch between now and the deadline, because as we've talked about, if they are interested in making moves, they have some incentive to make moves

and like we just got talked about with Detroit the east is wide open so if you're Toronto and you can add an impact player between now and the deadline who's to say the Raptors can't make a run in the East? Like I'm not going to sit here and really talk against any of these teams at this point with how

flawed the group of contenders are. Yeah and there is certainly opportunity there for the Raptors they've positioned themselves you know they've played well enough to where you have to acknowledge that's the case. There was talk around the league about there being win now pressure

and prove it type of pressure on Bobby Webster. The fact that you have an on the record quote saying very much that is not the case. We believe. Essentially the quote says, we believe in Bobby Webster. He's going to be here for a while. So that eliminates those

whispers. That said, he does have a very short contract. Right. But there is an actions words. Yeah, that's fair. You know, I mean, but Not that I'm saying it's not true. I'm just saying that, you know, I'm just pointing that out. It's a pretty significant step to say, attach my name to this.

I agree. Knowing those whispers are going around the league. Now, the problem with the rappers trying to upgrade is they're trying to upgrade by using contracts that people don't want. You know, oh, I thought the other very interesting quote, this was from an anonymous source, but it was a one word quote in terms of, whether they could be a John Morant team. And it was no. Now, it wasn't as clear. Guys, I just, when I say guys, I'm talking to our listeners, guys and girls.

We're having difficulty as media people cover the league finding a team that's interested in Jha. Now, maybe that's because they don't want to make it sound like they're interested in Jha for bargaining purposes. But we're having a difficult time. Trust me, we're all working on it. As we talked about at the time. There's a reason that. As we've-Trey Young had one top preferred destination, and that's because there weren't a lot of teams interested.

And Jod declared his preferred destination as Memphis, which he may have a reason for saying that. Right. And listen, none of this is a surprise in terms of the lack of interest in Jock because we've been talking about that for months. But a grandest story left the AD possibility more open-ended. I can just tell you, I don't see that being a two-team trade. Because, again, the Mavericks,

If they're training Anthony Davis, they want to shed salary. They want to position themselves to have some flexibility, not a massive luxury tax. Right. This is one of the reasons the Raptors have been in the market is because they have some players on big contracts that maybe aren't delivering on the big contracts. And so the idea would be you can move your big contracts for another big contract. But, you know, what you're looking for these days is it's okay to have a big contract player who's performing. If you have a big contract player that's not performing, you want him on a short deal. And that's probably one of the reasons why the Raptors maybe haven't been able to do a deal.

And, of course, it sounds like they're trying to act like they don't care, but they have been making calls. But in the case of Pertil, it's also that he has a bad contract and a bad back. That's a bad combination. Well, that contract, over $100 million is that they gave out last summer is not looking too great right now. But, hey, just on the All-Star voting, I thought it was a couple of interesting things. because they broke out the fan vote, which we already knew, the player vote and the media vote. Steph Curry with sixth in the media vote. Do we hate Steph Curry now?

No, just love Anthony Edwards. Yeah, Ant had, was fourth. Denny Avia, 10th amongst players, but finished ahead of both Durant and LeBron in total voting because of the media and the fans. I thought a couple other player votes were interesting and not the kind of humorous, oh, my gosh. these guys voted for themselves type things, the one-player vote. I thought Luca finishing sixth and Wimby finishing seventh in the West

was interesting. Amongst the player votes. Amongst the player votes, yes. Yeah, and Deniavinae finishing 10th, that leads me to believe that, you know, I mean, Yokic was won, so, but, you know, it leads me to believe that they vote for Americans.

I think there is still an anti-Euro sentiment among players until it's just beyond it. Like, you know, Yon is. dealt with it until he had 50 and 15 and a finals clincher. Joker, Joker dealt with it until, you know, he won championship. I really do think it's something that Europeans still is still a factor until they win a championship. Plus, Luke has gotten so much hype and Wimby's gotten so much hype. I think there's a bit of a push back against that.

Well, in the case of Denia, I think it irritates players how he, you know, gets a lot of free throws, even though he plays very physically. But players have been playing well. talking about them, I think, soon. But all right, thank you so much to all of our producers. Thank you to Bond Times. Thank you to McMahon. Thank you for watching and listening to The Hoop Collective. We'll talk to you later this week. Adios megos.