Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Ja Morant's Uncertain Future + Disaster For Pelicans & Heat/Mavs’ Offensive Spotlight

Episode Date: November 3, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to talk Ja Morant’s suspension and his future in Memphis before diving into the Lakers’ strong start and the Heat’s change in offensive approach. Plus, the Pelicans disastrous start to the season, the Thunder’s historic start, the Mavs’ offense struggling and reaction to our voicemail line. Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

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because Tim Bontemps was in New York at the Knicks and Bulls game on Sunday evening, where the Knicks gave the Bulls their first loss of the season, Tim Bond Temps. That's true. No more undefeated teams in the East, though I think the reason we actually did to this late was that and our guys traveling again. Our guys everywhere. That is true. That is true.

Our man banned McMahon was flying. to Houston, and as is his custom, he always takes the last possible flight and flies to the furthest possible airport. Joining us from Houston is Ban McMahon. First of all, lots of false information there. I took the second to last possible flight. Not the latest, but howdy partners. It's a pleasure to be here. My first road trip of the regular season, the Mavs opened up with five straight, and I did skip the trip to Mexico City. Which is interesting because you missed the Mavs getting absolutely worked by the Pistons there. But I watched a lot of college football.

Yes. I was going to say something, but I won't. Okay. Tonight, as in Sunday night, the Raptors beat the Grizzlies. Needed win for the Raptors. Actually, they won on Friday in Cleveland, but two so two in a row. But John Morant did not play in this game, Mr. McMahon.

Your Memphis Grizzlies suspended him for conduct. detrimental. What sounds to me like both his comments after the game on Friday, in addition to maybe what he's in his public comments, and also addition to what he potentially said privately to members of the coaching staff. But Jha is for a third straight season dealing with suspension. And now that is something that is.

a situation to bear watching. He is off to a healthy start. He actually has not missed any games this season due to health or previous issues, but he's not played his best basketball and especially shooting. He did have a game winner in Phoenix just like 48 hours before this,

but I guess those good lives went away pretty quickly. So McMahon, what is the state of the Grizzlies with this latest jaw situation. Well, notably, this is a team suspension. It's certainly not as long as the league suspensions, but this is a sign of, hey, his act is wearing thin in Memphis.

And people can say, oh, it's just a one game suspension when you're overreacting. Look, for it to get to the point where they feel like it is necessary to hold jaw this publicly accountable tells you there's been, some buildup. And I would say there's been years of buildup here. And look, this comes on the heels of a summer where there were no discussions about a John Moran extension, just, you know,

unlike Jaron Jackson Jr., where he got one the second that they could possibly give it to them. And there's been a lot of talk within the league about, hey, the Grizzlies are building this thing around Jaron Jackson Jr. And, you know, let's see what happens with John Morant. I don't know. I don't want to be dramatic and say it's a point of no return. I can't say that with confidence. But it is an awfully significant step for a franchise that many times over the years

has been perceived to be extremely reluctant to hold John Morant accountable. It feels like it should be a point of no return. I mean, we'll see if it is a point of no return ultimately. But, you know, we talked a lot this summer about Desmond Bain trade, obviously, right? And the direction that sent the Grizzlies in. And we'll go, we've repeatedly gone back to the comments, Zach Climmon made after the... I have them right here. Okay.

No, perfect. Yeah. So let me... Grizzlies finish in the play-in last year. Don't advance to the playoffs. I think they won 40-8 games. They advanced. They just didn't win a game in the playoffs.

They got spoke by the Thunder and let me get a nice little break between the first and second round. Okay, that's right. It was so incident. I forgot. And John got hurt in game three when they were up big, but they got swept by the Thunder. I don't remember anything about that series. So what does that say?

Okay. If I didn't cover the series, I might not either. It was not a memorable series. Right. So Zach Klein, my general manager, came out and said, I don't think we can look back at this series and this season. and say, oh, we're close.

We're not close. There's a lot of work to be done. He said, there's lots of sort through here. 48 wins, good for an eighth seed, but who cares? It's not good enough. Okay, those were the very, you know, harsh reality comments in April. Then in June, they trade Desmond Bain for draft picks. I realized that they then use the draft picks to pick up Cedric Coward,

who is a bright spot for them. And so you could argue that they were going and getting a player immediately. But that was a rebuild trade. Yep. Then they did not extend John Morant's contract. There was nobody talking about that because nobody actually thought that they would extend John Morant's contract. But those three things happened, unless I'm forgetting something else, McMahon. Well, the other thing I would add is that Zach Kleinman at Media Day, I thought was very to the point about

saying, hey, this is a big year for Jha. Basically for this version of the Grizzlies to go anywhere. And I'm paraphrasing here. But they need John Morant to be a consistent, reliable, all-MBA performer. And by the way, he has not, for the last few years, been consistent, reliable, or all-MBA. You know, like this isn't just about, okay, wow, they're finally holding Jock accountable. I would say this is about the pay. pain in the ass to production ratio being out of whack.

His production does not justify the pain in the ass stuff. I mean, it's not even, I'm not even sure he's a top 10 point card in the league. I mean, it's an incredibly deep position, but, you know. Well, he's a top 10 talent. Right. But he's not sure he is. I'm not sure he's a top 10 talent either. Talent.

Talent, no question. Well, hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. No, he's, first of all, he absolutely is not at this point. He absolutely is. No, he's not.

He's a point guard. Hold on. Now, wait a second. No, wait a second. Let's just stop. I'm saying we need to really examine the situation. John Moran is a point guard who doesn't really play defense and can't really shoot. And he's not nearly as athletic as he was a couple years ago.

All right. So at one point, he was one of the most electrifying players in the league, unquestionably. I would absolutely not say he's one of the most talented players in the league at this point. and I don't think he's even, he's certainly not among the five best point cards in the league. I'm not sure he's among the 10 best. Like I would just say flat out, Darius Garland at this point, I'd rather have Darius Carlin John Moran. For Darius Garland is a, not a perfect player by any means, but Darius Garland's an offensive

engine by himself. He's a way better shooter. Like, Jaws, again, in a league where everybody's relying on shooting now, he doesn't really shoot it. he doesn't guard. He's not really available. And he's not as athletic as he was a couple years ago. So, you know, like, he's still a good player.

Like, he obviously had the game winner the other night against Phoenix had a nice game. Like, I'm not saying he isn't good. There's also a million good point guards in the NBA. We talk about it all the time. We keep talking about how there's not really a need for teams to go get point guards because so many teams have one. But, you know, to your point, McMahon, when you look at this situation, like, are the grizzlies, where are the grizzlies going with job are

why is it worth dealing with this over and over and over again when they now could potentially have two top, what, eight, 10 picks in this year's draft? They got Cedric Cowder. It was like a good player. They got Jaylon Wells. They've got Zach Eady. Like, to me, I think you've got to look hard in mirror about not only trading John Morant, but trading Jared Jackson Jr.

Like, to me, well, no, but look, like, if you look at where Memphis, look at the Western Conference, okay? Like, look, go back to what Zach Klein and said. in May. This team is miles away from the thunder. They're miles away from the Houston Rockets, right? Like, they're nowhere near those teams right now. So is there a window where they're good enough to really be competitive in the next three years? I don't know. Like, it's hard to see it. The simple fact that you say, where are they going? It's also where have they gone? They've gone was the second round one time. And, you know, we find in the West has led to a playoff series victory one.

And look, this specific issue was jaw quiet quitting on the floor for the world to see. Like I would say it was loud quitting. It was obvious. Yeah, what he did in the second half was absolutely against the Lakers and that loss was absolutely embarrassing. And there's like genius IQ stats about his average speed. That was the slowest for him in any game. I have them right here if you want me to read them. They're boring. But they're really, really.

He basically was walking around jacking up bad jump shots and moping. And, you know, apparently he's got some kind of beef with Tuamesea Sala, which, okay, dude, they ran out. Taylor Jenkins was a separate deal because basically he had his legs cut out from under him when they, when Zach Clyman hired Isolo and Noel LaRoche the summer before. But they can know La Roche, who was

making seven figures and running that offense because Jah hated the offense. So they tried to, and that's the thing. I want to talk about, hey, you're trying to hold Jha accountable now.

You've done a lot of kissing his butt over the years. And that is one of many, many examples. Here's what he said after the game, just so in case people haven't heard. you know, it's a football weekend. He was asked after the Laker game, you know, what could have gone differently?

And he said, go ask the coaching staff. And then he was asked what could have been done differently other than asking the coaching staff. He says, according to them, probably don't play me. Right, because what happened was Isalo, and this is a guy who, look, he's relatively anonymous for your average fan and honestly NBA players as well. He's got nine games ahead coaching experience in the NBA leading into this. season, you know, young guy, obviously from Europe. But he's, he watches that, he's coaching that

second half. He sees jaw quitting. It's obvious. And so he's not, you know, tipy towing around. He goes in the locker room and confronts him in front of the entire team, which, you know, I saw a clip. I don't know when this was recorded, but him talking about like he came around of this philosophy. This was, the clip was on Twitter in March. So this is, you know, a while. But basically saying, hey, when there's something that the entire team sees and aware of, I'm going to address that in front of the entire team. I'm going to hold guys accountable like that, which, you know, you can say, hey, that might work in Europe. I don't know if it works in the NBA. Well, hey, this guy's trying to make sure that there is a culture set in Memphis.

And if you can't hold Jai accountable, you have zero chance. Now, you might argue you have zero chance to dictate what the culture is going to be as long as Jaws on the roster, which I want to get into that. that. Bontemps, you say trade them. Here's the problem. I didn't say trading them. I didn't say trading them was easy. Yeah, I don't think there's much. Like, you guys talk to people, I talk to people. Do you find a lot of people that believe there's going to be some robust market if they do shop John Moran? No, no. I don't think, I don't think there is one. I mean, I think for a couple of reasons. One is all the things we just talked about. The second is he's just not that much of a difference maker at the position.

You mentioned Darius Garland. You mentioned Darius Garland? I just, I'm looking at, you made me think about this. I'm looking at the 2019 draft, which was heralded. Yeah. Right? That was the famous lottery where, what's a commercial when it was New Orleans, Memphis, Knicks, and Lakers.

And it was like, oh, my. Here's the top 10. Zion sitting there. Here's the top 10 of that draft. Zion 1, J. 2, R.J. Barrett 3, DeAndre Hunter, 4, Darius Garland, 5, Jared Culver out of the league, 6, Kobe White, having a Renaissance, 7, Jackson Hayes, 8, Rui Hachamura 9, Cam Reddish 10 out of the league. Wow. Now, on a redraft, I'm not want to do that fully right now. On a redraft, who's going one today?

Probably Darius Garland. And despite the fact he has his own durability issues. But like, let's just be honest, man, Jha and Zion, they are so talented. And they've both had these just extremely bright flashes of brilliance. But they bring a lot of baggage. They've got major durability issues. And neither one of them has really won. Nope. Zion hasn't won at all.

Jah has no. I mean, look, three years ago, we all thought the Grizzlies were going to be contenders. for... Well, they finished second two years in a row, right? They had the two seed two years in a row. Yeah, and the second time they finished seconds the year that he got himself suspended 25 games, and they got completely embarrassed by the Lakers

in the first round of the playoffs. I mean, like they, as a team, quiet quit in game six, getting their butts eliminated. Yeah, look, I'm sure, I don't know if they're the, you know, I think they're trying, I think this suspension probably was an effort to save it. It's also a statement, hey, we've got this coach's back. Yeah, I agree.

Now, I don't think, you know, you can say the track record is a track record, but let's see he's coming back. Let's see what happens. Well, well, and again, I think it is worth, I think it's worth going back to McMahon's point about the pain versus production meter. Yeah, it's like where it sits. Yes. And I want to go through a list of point guards. I want to see where we actually rank John Morant to go back to your question, to your comment earlier about him being one of the most talented players in the league. I don't think he's one of the most talented players at his position.

Would you rather talent versus would you rather too separate? But again, the guy's a career 31% three point shooter who doesn't play defense and his athleticism has started to go. And I will say a very scary trend is Jaws finishing in the lane and at the room going down, down, down, down. So again, just to do the exercise, is Jalen Brunson ahead of John Moran? Obviously. I'm going through a list of point cards. Is Kate Cunningham ahead of John Moran? Clearly.

Is Steph Curry ahead of John Moran? Obviously. Is Luca Dachachia had a John Moran? By a lot. So that's already four. But we have Deeran Fox ahead of John Moran. I would say more teams who trade for Deer and Fox at John Moran. Yes, but that's not.

I mean, we're having two separate discussions. No, not. But, you know, Jha is more talent is my, in terms of talent. Is he more talented than Deer and Fox? Well, I'm not sure he is. All right. Well, we'll, I haven't even got to Shea. She's way.

I haven't counted Tyrese Halliburton. Yeah. Tyrese Maxie. Yeah. That's eight. I mean, hey. Darius Garland. That's nine.

Trey Young is an interest. Those two are interesting. Yeah. I mean, that's like the realm you're talking about where you first are talking about them. That's borderline top 10. Well, talent. there's talent is one thing skills are another temperament is another leadership is another like you know in terms of talent more talented than most of those I don't want to have this argument farther like he's got a lot

he's got a lot of flaws and and his production is dipping year by year yes he's a he's a silly very good to very good player it's not that he's not talented but again four or five years ago you were looking at him as one of the future faces the league and one of the future faces that position. Hell, Nike gave him a signature shoe. Yes. You know, this is, I mean, that's all you really need to know. Yes. And now he's not a guy that's, he's not, he's not one, he's a borderline top 10 point card with all this other stuff going with them. But by the way, you didn't even say Kyrie. You, right. You mentioned the signature shoe, which has actually sold well. And that's also when you talk about, You know, bond temps when you talk about, you know, they got to trade them. There's a couple problems with it.

One, we've discussed, which is like, I think it's going to be tough to get more than pennies on the dollar for them. Two, just from a pure business transaction. And I'm sorry, franchises have to consider this. Matter of fact, the business stuff, everything's blown up in Nico's face. We'll get to that later. But the business stuff immediately blew up on his face. And trading John Moran. in a market like Memphis where he continues to be extraordinarily popular,

I think they're going to have a real hard time putting butts in the seats and generating revenue. I mean, I would say they're probably already having some trouble doing that. The only reason I think this year in particular is a compelling time to do it is because of where they are positioned. And if they do do this right now, they have this Sun's pick coming. I know Phoenix just gave the Spurs their first law. as Brian said, I think you mentioned earlier, Victor William had nine points easily, his worst game of the season. But the sons are going to be in the lottery. If the Grizzlies are in the

lottery and you get two lottery picks in this draft, to go with coward, to go with these other young guys, you can't at least pretty quickly start to go back in the other direction. It doesn't have to be a, you know, 12 years in the wilderness plan, if you're Memphis. But at some point, I think you just have to look at this and sort of go, what is the point? Like, what are we trying to do? The other thing is, you know, again, Wendy, we will see how jaw response it is. I would say jaw tends to be pretty thin-skinned and, you know, feels disrespected at a lot of ridiculous things, much less being suspended because the coach caught him out in front of the whole team and he snapped back at him and pouted publicly after that. But the risk of not trading Jha is he's got all this year and two more years on his contract.

And if it's a miserable situation, I could see it getting really ugly. Well, the other thing to factor into this whole thing, too, is, I mean, Jaws got a pretty unique representation situation at this point. I mean, recently part of ways of Mike Miller, who'd been his agent, and he's now basically created his own. agency. I don't think they've hired a licensed agent yet to operate in it. But I mean, if it does get to the point where the Grizzlies think about making a trade, usually a trade like that, but at some point involve the agency. And that's not necessarily a easy thing to sort out now either. So John is supposed to be back with the team. John supposed to be back with the team Monday. They are home against Detroit on Monday, and we'll see what happens,

but it's going to be a interesting situation among many interesting situations that have existed in Memphis the past couple of years with Josh. Yeah, I don't anticipate that it'll ever ask me for any advice, but I would advise him to go hire an experienced agent at this point. He's going to need one. Well, he is starting an agency. I'm trying to remember how it was described. Like, his, the concept is for people like him who need his kind of guidance to go my way. Oh, boy. I'm not sure that, you know.

I don't know that he'll have a lot of clients. It is, it is just to a reminder of how fast this stuff changes. I mean, we referenced it earlier, but they were number one in the future power rankings two years in a row or two, two of them in a row. It was only a couple years ago. It's, it's, you know, they draft well. their business side considering their challenges does very well. They work very hard in that market.

They do a great job of marketing the franchise. Yeah, they do a really good job of local branding. But their margin for air, your margin for air in a market like Memphis is just very tight. It's also just a reminder that a lot of times in the NBA, you need to be really lucky. And you're also only going to go as far as your best player is going to take you. And it looked like, again, not too long ago, that John Morant was going to be. one of those kind of guys. Like he was going to be a Tyrese Halliburton kind of guy or a Jason Tatum kind of guy or

Luca Donchich kind of guy that was going to be a guy that was going to be going deep in the playoffs year after year. And instead, he said, we're going to be fine in the West and they have never won anything since. By the way, in terms of the excitement about the franchise right now, Jackson tells us that you can get tickets, you can get in the door for Pistons at Grisley's starting at four bucks. So just some good vendors in the arena. They have a, what's that, rendezvous barbecues got a,

it was quite good. Yeah. All right. By the way, now the heat went down. They're three and three. They went down at the Lakers on Sunday night. Luca is back and had said two very good games. He had a triple double.

Just sort of an average game by his standard. McMan, he had triple double and he was only nine of 22. Didn't shoot it well, but, you know, that's, he's pretty good. But Austin Reeves, I had 26 and 11 assists. Austin Reeves, soon would have a strong case to win a player the week. Not that that's a priority in November, but you had a ton of assists this week in addition to a bunch of high sports. It's been a great start. I mean, I mean, no joke.

It's been an awesome star for the Lakers. I mean, where they sat a week ago with Luca out for a week and LeBron obviously out since the start of the year for them to be sitting at, what, five and two right now, I think. Yes. I mean, that's an incredible start for that. And because of Austin, they went two and one without Luca. Yeah. So that was, right, which is massive. By the way, Jake LaRavia, 25 points.

That's good. Eight rebounds, four steals, jents. Oh, whoa. The pale pit goal. You tried to tell us. I thought that would point it out. Actually, you know what I noticed? La Ravia does have a better tan now living in Southern California.

I guess playing golf with Austin Reeves. He's got a little pigmentation about him now. He did not have that in Memphis. So, Bon Temptson, I wrote this piece on Friday where we, I don't know if it had been reported before, and I'm not saying that we were the first reported. I don't think it had because I actually texted you guys, not knowing that you guys were sneaking around behind my back

and writing about this. And I asked, hey, are they running? I actually heard about it in August, but I, you know, I was just like, let's just see how it goes. This guy's got so much news, man. He just can chill and wait down stuff for us. Yes, in August while I was watching Jake La Ravia defensive game tape. I heard that Eric Bolstra had. When he discovered La Ravia's defense, he also discovered the Noah La Roche offense in Miami.

Yeah. Anyway, Eric Spolstra over the summer hired Noah La Roche, who was run out. We just mentioned earlier, run out of Memphis. because, you know, essentially So John didn't want his to run an assistant. John didn't want the offense. You know, he also is an odd offense to run. I mean, no pick and roll offense when you have John Moran is kind of an odd fit.

It is, however, a very good fit for the roster that the heat have. And so far their offense has been very good. More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Yeah, so basically, look, there's a lot of offenses down through the history of basketball that are read and react offenses. I mean, I am not a historian of coaching the game, but like if you look at the way that Indiana used to run the

triangle is all. The triangle is all about read or react. There was no. Red Holtsman Knicks here in New York, the legendary Knicks teams were all about that kind of stuff. The Larry Bird Celtics were like that. There's no pick and rolls in the triangle. I mean, I wouldn't say none,

but like that's a read and react offense. So it is, it is different. It, it's, you know, I'm not, again, I can't go over the finer points about what's difference between the Noah LaRosha offense versus the Tex Winter Triangle. But the concept is the same, which is that the players watch what happens on the court and then react to where the ball goes. And there's constant movement. And there's no plays.

There have been in, I've talked to scouts this year who have said that there's been entire halves where Eric Spolstra has not called a play. Not one play call comes from the bench. I had one guy say Eric Spolstra has called more timeouts than plays this show. And the other thing is they are playing breakneck speed. Right. The speed is a big factor here. In fact, just in general, like, you know, scoring has been really, has very,

really high up. And I was talking to some people over the weekend and they were like, boy, the referees are really letting the guys play. Like, you know, this, you know, it's very physical out there right now. And I was like, well, then how do you explain the fact that the scoring is still really, really high? And he's like, just because everybody is following through with their, you know, September plan to run.

We'll see how often, how long that could hold out. But especially the heat who lead the league in pace by, you know, They're number one in pace and their 30th in pick and roll. Well, and the fact they're putting up these numbers without Tyler Hero, who should be back sometime this month from his foot injury is, yes, I think that's right anyway. I don't, I shouldn't say that for certain. But I think he's supposed to be back in the next few weeks.

The fact that they're scoring like this without him should give them some optimism that when he does get back, they can maybe be even better and have a chance to be in the mix in the east. I tell you, it looks phenomenal. Jaime Hockes Jr., Yeah, he had a big game today. Dude, he is just attacking, like, I mean, just playing at incredible tempo, getting downhill. Like, guys are bouncing off him. He's finishing the lane.

He's shooting better than 60% from the floor. And most of that is attacking off the dribble. He's off to an incredible start. Yeah, he's not shooting the deep ball. Well, he's never done that. He's not a three-point shooter. but he's scoring sort of like you said the old but the way that offense works like the floor is spaced and he's a good straight line driver you can get if you can get in the paint and kick it out you can make

place which is what he's been doing and he's a big big guy who can you know get a guy on his hip and get to the basket and he had he had a terrible second year he really regressed last year and I think this offense does suit him and he also came in with a message to send um the other thing is is that you know uh bam atabio went on to Prime video on Friday night while the Heat were in L.A. and gave a demonstration with Norm Powell. Norm Powell didn't play on Sunday night, by the way. I think he's supposed to come back Monday against his old team, the Clippers.

But Bam has been like he's been really praising this offense a lot. A lot of his stuff was taken out because, you know, Bam's up, he's a role man. And, you know, they used to run a lot of dribble handoffs. I mean, Bam became a max player, a multi-time all-star playing, I mean, mostly a defender, but a lot of his stuff, you know, what was comfortable for him was taken out of the offense. I'm not sure I love Bam taking all these threes, though. He's taking a lot of threes.

He's shooting, his shooting percentages are up from three. but yeah, so. Well, he had a couple, he had a couple really hot shooting games early, and I think it started to come back the other way. Well, he's shooting, he's shooting seven threes a game. He's never taken more than two.

Yeah. And, uh, but his shooting percentage is the lowest it's ever been. So his, I don't know, say his efficiency. Well, he's shooting almost half a shots. He's shooting almost half of shots from three.

I just don't. I don't know if that's a winning strategy. Yeah, I don't know. I just, think it's interesting. The league is sort of picked up on the heat being very interesting early on with this system. By the way, speaking of the heat, I just want to, I've been meaning to say this for a week. I want to shout out their public address announcer, Michael Beaumonti. Another discovery, McMahon. Who, yeah, he's been, he's only been in the job 35 years.

He announced to he's a legend. This is going to be his last season. And, um, uh, I, He's absolutely a wonderful man, and I just wanted to shout him out. I mean, he's one of the guys you hear him and you know exactly. Oh, I mean, he was the soundtrack of those, those Heedles teams, you know, right. I mean, he was a soundtrack of the heat before then. Well, no, but I mean, but that was, I mean, that's one of the iconic teams in the history of the league. And Biomante's calls of those teams and those games is, I mean, that's, you know, that's become part of the soundtrack of the league. There's so many people in Miami that have been there for 30 years.

And you go to Miami and it's like going to a mom and pop restaurant in a lot of ways. The rare person is the person who's been there for less than 15. Most of them have been there for 20 or more. And this is the case at some other places, but like all of their staff there, you know, all of the security guards, all of the people that run the scores table, all of those people have been there forever. And so, and Michael is one of them. And he, he was very welcoming to me when I started coming to Heat Games, 15 years ago when not everybody wanted to see ESPN around. Everybody sort of had their backup trying to protect their, their big three. Everybody

saw the big, bad media and wanted to play, play defense. But I was treated beautifully by him. and he is, ACE is at his job, and I hope he reconsiders because he's still, he's certainly not falling off on his performance. Um,

all right. Uh, I don't know what's going to happen by midday Monday when this podcast comes out, but the New Orleans Pelicans fell to 0 and 6, uh, on Sunday. Uh,

they lost by, let me do the math here. 31. I mean, they were, they were, they were, playing in Oklahoma City.

Here's all you got to say. The Pelicans have played six games. They've lost all six games. And they've lost three of the six games by at least 30 points. Yeah. That is the 29th in defense so far. I'm honestly surprised they're not 30th. Who is, who is 30th?

Probably Brooklyn without looking. Yeah. Sure. Brooklyn. And Brooklyn's plan this year's distinct. The Pelicans plan was to be good enough to justify giving up their kick up. I don't know what the Pelicans. I don't know what the Pelican.

I mean, to go back to the screen. By the way, real quick, the, I cannot emphasize how important it is for the Nets to finish with the bottom four record this year, which they are going to do because their pick is top eight protected. So the only way to guarantee a top seven pick is to be in the bottom four. The Nets pick is not top A percent. You're very confused all these. Yeah. I don't know what, I don't know what you're, I don't know what pick protection you have in your head. but they have to be in the they have to get oh no that's Washington Washington has to finish

Washington Washington that I take it back Jackson help me out yeah all right anyway you're right don't help him Jackson all right anyway um they're oh and six but don't worry the nets are going to be in the bottom three at the end of the season I feel well and and hey the pelicans very well could be too and that's great for the hawks it's horrific for the pelicans well And we have a doubt it's going to be Willie Green's problem. We should also remind everybody because we have talked a lot about this Hawks, Pelicans trade. And Brian has made these tortured attempts to explain the process not being as important as the result. However, I'm just messing with you.

Don't try to defend it. The thing that has not been talked about, the thing that's not been talked about nearly enough is during the NBA finals, the New Orleans Pelicans made a trade with the Indiana Pacers. who were playing in the NBA finals. And they gave the Indiana Pacers back their pick in the 2026 draft, which was top four protected. It's important to remember. It was top four protected, but still, top four protected.

Yeah. For the 22nd or 23rd pick in the draft. I don't remember which one at the moment. I think it was the 23rd pick. Yes, but at the time, Tyrese Halliburton had two healthy a killings. Well, hold on. Okay. Well, first of all, first of all, so how about saying,

Hey, let's talk about this after the finals ends. At the time Tyrese Halliburton was healthy. That is correct. However, there was absolutely no reason to make that trade before the finals were over. There was really no reason to make that trade at all because, again, the process of what's better, the 23rd pick right now, or the chance to have a pick between 5 and 30 the next year, there was a very good chance they were going to get the same or better pick the next year. There's really no good reason to do it other than you desperately wanted to get into this draft because you maybe wanted to go up and do stuff in the draft, which they wind up doing later. But the thing that matters is what happened at game seven of the NBA finals. Tyrese Halberton unfortunately got hurt. And the Pelicans could have been in a situation where, yes, their season is very bad. But they have their own pick, which could be the number one pick in the draft in a loaded draft, again for a team.

that continually gets the number one pick in the draft and loaded drafts. And they could have also got another top 10 pick from the Pacers, who did get their first win against the Warriors on Saturday night, but have a million injuries are going to probably struggle this year. And very well could be in the lottery themselves. And instead, they turned it into the 23rd pick in the draft and then use that to give away their first round pick the next year. And now they have no lottery picks in this year's draft and they're 0.

And it's a mess. And now you're in the, absolute worst position you can be in the NBA. And that's a bad team that doesn't benefit from being bad. And they are awful. Like, fellas, we don't have to worry about eating kingcake at all unless we so desire. We ain't going to have to pay up on that bet. That's for sure.

I'm a good Lord. I'm tempted to say, we'll eat kingcake if they get to 20 wins. But they'll probably get to 20 wins because they're going to be trying in the back half a lot of other teams aren't, but it's, yeah, it's, it's, it's just a very rough, it's just a very rough situation. Well, and, and you've got, you know, you've got a new decision makers in the basketball personnel department, and they, they came in, Joe Dumars came in and decided, clearly he was going to shake a lot of things up. He did not, as far as I know, did not make any attempts to trade Zion Williamson.

And he did not. They announced they were sticking with him. They had him on the dais at the lottery. Right. And they did not make a change at head coach. Well, yeah. Which, yeah. By the way, and before we get into the head coach thing, just to go back to the jaw conversation, like, I think we have to say that at this point,

Zion Williamson's sort of in the same boat. Oh, 100%. He's been in that boat. He's a good to very good player, but he's just not. He's very talented. He's a very talented player. But he's just not the difference making player that he was, you know, expected to be. I put the mellow ball.

Mostly I think through injury, but. Yeah, I think those, John Moran, La Mello Ball and Zion Williamson, the situations are all, you know, they're not identical by any stretch, but I think they're all in that same category of extremely talented guys. who've had flashes of brilliance,

and I would not want to build a franchise around them. Within the team, they signed DeAndre Jordan off the street and immediately started him. Against Joker, thanks, dude. Which that's never good, especially in October. Jordan Poole started the first three games of the season and then got yanked from the starting lineup.

And in two of the three games, he's played off the bench, has gone two of 11. They did have a narrow loss. He was very good. He was very good in L.A. on Friday when they almost beat the Clippers. Yes. But the other two games have been a disaster. No, I know.

I know. But, you know, I'm not sure he's thrilled about not being in the starting lineup. I mean, the first couple of games of the season, they were competitive. They lost close to John the Gris. Then they lost an overtime to San Antonio, had a couple chances to win that game. But since then, 32 to Boston without Zion, 34 at Denver, the Kauai game winner on Friday, and then 31 at Oklahoma City. I know it's Denver, Oklahoma City, and, you know, it's a decent Boston team.

But the Pelicans are healthy. Like, they shouldn't be losing these teams by 30. Oh, Zion should be winning But Zion missed the one game with the The one game Bone confusion on his foot He still should have for one game They still should have been losing by

By the way, the Thunder are 7 and O And Chet And Jalen Williams hasn't played yet Oh so Jalen Williams had to get another procedure Which was not planned Yeah, we should talk about that He got a there was a screw that there The plan was to leave the screw

and the wrist in. And he was like, what they anticipated was late in the return to play procedure. But the screw was bothering him. So he went back to the surgeon and had that screw removed. And they said they announced this. It was a classic Friday news dump. And they said to be re-evaluated in 10 to 14 days. Honestly, I wasn't shocked.

Just because I watched him shoot, I watched his pregame. I think they were in Dallas. I believe it was Monday, earlier in a week. And he really shot the three poorly. I was like, ooh, man, like he doesn't look that close.

Like, I thought he was going to, you know, I was thinking, like, I was watching like, is he going to be back next week? Like, what's this look like?

Anyway, so it's going to be a little bit more time for him. Chet played that game in Monday when he was questionable with lower back soreness, but it hasn't played since. They did get Isaiah Joe back, who just comes back, swish,

swish, launch in threes. and they just keep rolling along 7-0 She had 30 points and 30 minutes today and he said after the game well first off his house got broken into Yeah that's unfortunate Which

In a place like Oklahoma City I feel like they're going to track those individuals down I hope so Well I think it's been an unfortunate rash of this happening With athletes across the country But I thought they busted a ring In southern California that was doing

Yeah, they bust the ring that was a lot of them. Yeah. Anyway, but Shea said after the game that he thinks that their team is better than it was a year ago. And I think, you know, just extrapolating what he thinks. I think it's because they're getting so much more production up and down the lineup even than they were a year ago. And A.J. Mitchell had another strong game with the 10 points and 8. I mean, they have the most wins to start. They have the most wins to start a season by a defensive.

champion since the 1516 warriors who went 24 and 0. And I have thought since the summer, we talked about on the pod, they've reminded me a lot of the 1415 warriors and the 15, 16 warriors coming into this season. Because again, if you go back to the summertime, there were not, there was, it was far from unanimous that people thought the thunder were going to win again. There were people poking holes in them here and there. And, oh, Denver can beat them or Houston can beat them or, you know, whoever, but like it wasn't, this team just won 68 games, rolled through the playoffs,

is one of the youngest teams in the league, has everybody back, right? Just like back in 2015, the Warriors won. There were all these questions about, well, were they actually the real team they won? I know they ultimately didn't win. However, in the interim, they won 73 games and went back to the finals and lost, you know, probably the greatest finals we've seen back and forth with LeBron. So I think they've got a chance to win 70 games this year. and the fact that they're off to this kind of start,

it doesn't really surprise me at all. And I remember talking to somebody in the preseason, and they were talking about the fact that when you win a title like this, and you come back the next year, to Shea's point about everybody being better, you just have so much more confidence when you come back after winning. And this is a group of a bunch of mid-20s guys who won. It's also unusual for a championship team to bring back their whole roster.

typically even if it's not core players, even if it's high-level role players, you know, the guys get paid, you know, move on or whatever. But, you know, they bring back their whole roster. And so. And it looks like it. Yeah, for sure. And they had a historic, not just season last year, but like their point differential was historic.

And it's right, you know, it's 12.4 right in that same range again right now. And fellas, let me give you something. Second or third best player has barely has not played, and whether you have him ahead of Chad or not, Jayne Williams. And Chad has been in and out of the lineup, like you said. Second and third most talented player, second or the best player. Well, the guy who's been all-in-A, right?

The guy who's coming off from all-N-BAC season, the guy who had 40. They're all-N-B-A wing who had 40 in the finals, hasn't played yet. And there's seven and all with a 12-point differential. And by the way, they shot it well today. They were shooting, they were the worst three-point shooting team in the league

before today. They were sub 30% going in two. That's one of the things that people say is that their shooting could be better. Well, they're shooting it now. They're ranked 29th now at 31.5%. That'll come up. Yeah, that's my point. That's my point. And they're the last undefeated team. They're pretty good. All right. So McMahon, you're going to be seeing the Mavericks tomorrow. You're catching up with them in Houston. By the way, the Rockets without Fred Van of lead have the number one offense in the league. Yeah.

We've been talking about the heat, but they are, they are blasting teams. Just smoke, just smoke the Celtics on Saturday night in Boston. Yeah, the Celtics have had a couple of good wins recently, too. And, uh, saw a scout who saw them who was very impressed. It's also a horrible matchup for Boston, which is not a very big team. And as we know, the, the rockets might be the league's biggest team. So tough, tough sledding for them. And it showed in that game.

More hoop collective podcast. after this. So they got beat. Jalen Duren and Kate Cunningham. Both had huge games. They played in Mexico City on Saturday, the annual Mexico City game. Play Dallas, just to be clear, people that don't know. You're talking about Dallas got beat.

All the way out, this is the first versus worst matchup in Houston. The first ranked offense against the worst ranked offense. Yeah. So. Got a lucicized hole in that offense. A long. I would say. And that a lugis size when he was about 25 pounds heavier.

Along those lines, Jason Kidd, who, if I'm not mistaken, scolded, maybe scolded too strong of a word, but corrected people for being to. Push back on some gallery reporting. Firmly pushed back. Yeah. And now he completely restarted it. Well, I actually didn't see this quote. What did he say? Do you have the exact quote in front of you, Wendy?

Hold on. I should have. I can get it real quick. This was, and this was kind of an offhand comment that he made. in Mexico City. I think he was asked something about, like, how Kyrie will fit when he comes back or whatever. And the exact quote...

We just can't wait to get Kai back at some point. Hopefully it's in the year 25, not 26, but we'll see what happens. Whoa. Yeah. Okay. So, you know, basically saying, hey, hopefully we can get Kyrie back in late December, which honestly, delicious. bit that I've seen of Kyrie since training camps open, you know, like post-practice stuff

and whatever. I've been surprised, like, how much he's doing, like shooting off the move, you know, making moves, putting the ball on the floor, changing directions, those kind of things. So, hey, it'd be great if Kyrie could get back in late December. It'd be great if you can get back in January. It'd be great if you can get back before the midway point of the season. but what's not great is their offense without Kyrie. Holy crap, do they stink offensively? And that's what the rough thing about the loss of the Pistons in Mexico City. They wasted a 31-point DeAngelo-Russell performance.

Dilo had, first of all, their offense has been a hell of a lot better with Dilo on the floor than off, despite the fact that until that game of Mexico City, he really was struggling to shooting the ball. he lit it up there and they still lost but look man it's just the roster without kairi there's such a lack of playmaking and shooting and there's a lot of different factors here obviously you're starting an 18 year old a point guard has never played the position before and look man i'm not selling any cooper flag's stock but it's a struggle for him man like he has these second worst plus minus in the league his his shooting numbers are unsightly to say the least. I think he's a good passer for a 6-foot-9, 18-year-old forward.

He's not a good passer for an NBA point guard, certainly not right now. The one guy who has a worst plus minus in the league, then Cooper Flagg, is Clay Thompson. And he's the one shooter in the lineup. And, you know, it's been a rough start for Clay to say the least. And, you know, then you're always going to have these spacing problems. You know, we've talked many times over the years about 80. What did you say Cooper's plus minus was?

Minus 69. And five games? Six. Okay. Yeah, they're two and four. Minus 69 is not a nice number for a six game plus minus five. Good job there. Yes.

I just went back and I'm as mature as most 18-year-olds. I just went back and looked at LeBron's first five games. because the similarities. Now the skill set is different. I'm not going to get into who's more talented. The skill set is a little different, but it was similar in the fact that LeBron was being asked to play point guard. He hadn't really prepared to play point guard,

and it just sort of was foisted on him because he didn't have a point card. LeBron was minus 43 in his first five games, which the Cavs lost all five. Yeah, now the difference is the cab, those calves didn't go into the season, and think they had a chance to contend for a championship. That's fair. Well, I mean, wait a second.

Hey, I'm just saying. Who actually thought that? The Maverick can go to the finals. Every day they were talking about championship, this and that. I'm not saying I agreed. I told me. That's fine. If they were talking about it, then they deserve it.

I mean, I don't think anybody rash. You know, I'm telling you what they're saying. But like the space and concerns with AD playing, with a rim running five, those are always going to exist. PJ Washington is their secondary ball handler in the starting lineup. I like him a lot better as a fourth option than a second ball handling option. He's also, you know, he can get hot, but he's not, I wouldn't say he's a feared three-point shooter.

And like I said that, and they have the thing about Cooper Flagg, like when people, like when scouts talked about him or executives, people around the league talked about him, it was a while before they brought up like scoring and playmaking and those kind of things. The thing about him is he can do so many things well, but people talked about him on the defensive end more than they did as like some kind of offensive engine. I don't know if he'll ever be an offensive engine. Maybe I'm, maybe I'm wrong. I think in time his offense is going to be just fine.

I would also say that he is in a pretty awful immediate position, which I do think in the long term, him playing point card right now and taking lumps and having the ball and doing all this stuff. will be immensely beneficial. But he's playing on a team with no shooting around him. Anthony Davis is averaging 20 and 10 and shooting 52%, which is like good numbers for a normal player. He's been out. Well, now he's. Now he's hurt.

But I'm saying before that, that's what he's doing on the year. And like for this team to have a chance to be competitive while Kyrie is out, Anthony Davis needed to be putting up like first team or second team all NBA numbers. He wasn't doing that. Right. So you have that problem. You have the sacred cow of Clay Thompson clearly needing to be in the starting lineup, which is not working and is a problem that they seemingly can't do anything about. As McMahon just laid out, like the plus and minus number backs up to play on the court. Like, I love Clay.

It's a incredible career. 26.5. I mean, that's it that's just that's unfathomable. Like you can't keep going forward with that. But I think the Maver's are probably in a position where they kind of have to. No, they have to play them. They just have to. They just can't play them a point card. No, we're talking about Clay. No, Clay. Oh, Clay. Not Cooper. Clay. Starting Clay is what I was referring to. Like, you know, but that's, again, like it's, it's an, it's an incredibly awkward.

Like, look, Vijay Edgecombe had an incredible start, right? The last couple of games, he's had like 13, 14 points at a couple assists. But yeah, he can kind of go back and forth because he's got Tyrese and Joelle and Bede and they have like kind of a functioning, they have a fair. functioning team around him. So when he has a 35 point game in the opening, you're like, holy crap, look at what Vijay Edgecombe is doing. But if he has an okay game or a so-so game on another night, it doesn't really matter. It's just part of the story.

But the other thing is, he's not getting the best team. He's not getting the best defense of the player like Cooper flag is every night. Exactly. Exactly. So Cooper is going to be just fine. And he's going to be a stud. And all this in the long term is going to be a positive for him. But the team is, it's like we talked about before.

Like the Mavs have gotten up to eighth in defense. That's closer to where they needed to be to be competitive, especially if you take away the drubbing they got in the opener against the spurs. But the offense has just got to get better. And I think part of that is like 80 had to be better. We'll see how long he's going to be out with this Achilles soreness. That's pretty scary. They're calling it now a low-grade calf strain.

He missed the Mexico City game. He'll miss the game in Houston. Then they say he'll be re-evaluated. Better be a pretty low-grade calf strain if he's going to be back that quickly. Calf-caf strains, as we've talked about many times, are very scary injuries. It's not great. Especially for guys in their 30s. And look, the simple fact of the matter is AD started the season heavy.

Yes, you know. You asked him about it. For Mavericks, for Mavericks start a season heavy. and then strain his calf, I've got my head on a swivel for a trade coming. Well, and look, and the other thing is, look, I mean, he's only playing 20 minutes a game, but Clay's shooting under 30% from three. Just to be clear, he was joking because that could be used against your argument. Oh, sorry, yes, aggregators.

That was a joke. God. I'm sorry, I forgot it. And Clay is shooting under 30% from three. And as McMahon said, the plus minus is minus 78. Right. Since they signed Clay Thompson, the team has traded, the team has changed dramatically. The idea of Clay Thompson was he was going to get spoon-fed eight butt-naked, wide open looks per game, and they don't have playmakers now. And look, hopefully Kyrie can come back in late December, early January or whatever.

To think that Kyrie is going to come fresh off of an ACL recovery in his 30s and just tape on and rescue this thing? And look, I'm sure he's worked very hard. but I have watched guys coming off of ACL injuries look great in their individual workouts. And it's just such a recovery that. It just remains confusing to me. And we don't need to relitigate the Austin Rees part of the trade. Obviously, that ship has sailed. But even after they made the trade, I just remain confused at the fact that you, we talked about the second they made the trade.

Again, setting aside whether they should have got Austin Reeves or not, obviously they should have. They had no guards on the roster when they made the trade. And coming into the season, the only guy they had on the roster that they had was DeAngelo Russell. They didn't make any kind of roster move to try to get more ball handers on the team. Their roster move was drafting Cooper Flagg. Well, I understand that, but they did nothing beyond that. I agree with me. They needed probably two more guys.

You know how I felt about playing a teenager at point guard. But that's not. And again, a teenager at point guard is not. Well, that's not the issue. Never played it before. But it is. It's part of the reason they're struggling. And look. Well, yes, but I mean, I mean that they don't have any other option besides DeAngelo Russell. Like, they should have three or four guys who are getting out of the ball. And instead it's literally just Cooper Flagg or DeAngelo Russell. And that's a man.

Brain and Williams, he actually had 20 in their win over the Pacers that. Yes, Bray Williams is a nice way out in the last second. But hey, defense wins championships, dead last offense gets you another lottery ticket. I can guarantee you that. Hey, dude, Luca had more points in the first three games he played this season than anybody on the Mavericks hadn't six. Like, it's just, and, I mean, that's a tough stat. It's a, like, dude. And here's the thing. We started this podcast off talking about the situation in Memphis where the grizzlies might be approaching a point where they decide,

Jaws just not worth the headaches. Frankly, that's the decision Niko Harrison made about Luca Dantich last year. And I'm not going to debate all about what were legitimate headaches, but whatever. The big difference is this. Luca had proven without a doubt that he could drive, not just winning, but like. Yeah, Luca was coming off going to the finals. Yeah. Luca was a five-time first team all-NBA selection.

He was unquestionably a top five player. in the league who had just gone to the finals while leading the league in scoring and averaging damn near a triple double. And by the way, a couple of years before that took a completely different supporting cast to the Western Conference finals. So if you are going to make that kind of trade, you better win. You better be right. All right. Before we wrap it up, Jackson gave out a, you and Jackson plotted on some voicemail. Not me and Jackson. This is all Jackson's doing.

This is Jackson. This is a he. Mike Walschuski sent me an incredible, a little message, which we played. And I sent it to Jackson. And Jackson totally on his own came up with this whole idea about calling into the calling into the phone line. Jackson got a lot of messages. He's promoted. He's now called himself the executive producer.

He's got a chair and everything. All right. Jackson, a selection of the, as I used to say on, on, car talk from the dozens of messages that we got. You guys, none of you guys have any idea of car talk is? No idea. I guarantee you Jackson doesn't know. I don't know what car talk is.

I know six, seven. Those are two different areas. I still don't know what six seven is. Jackson, do you have a couple of answers of a sampling that we got this week? I do. You're a couple. Ooh, the mystery voice chimes in. I believe Wendy is going to be in Sykesville, Missouri, where they

manufacture and distribute his bril cream because he's looking a little dry on the top so I expect he's going to get a refill. Dry on the, what does that even mean? Your hair, brookery. I'm looking dry. That's what they say. Lots of people are saying, apparently.

Wow. Coming for your neck. Worthy of selection. Hey, fellas. John from Boston. I'm calling on Halloween. Not sure where Wendy's going to be for the next podcast,

but I can guarantee that tonight Wendy will be at his house with the lights off hiding from trick or tree. All right. Thanks, guys. That was true at one time. I was going to say, now he's got his, I was going to say, he's got his got to take around. Yeah.

No, no, I have this, I leave this giant vat of candy in front of my house and I go out with my seven year. What was your guy for Halloween? He was, um, what is it called like, what is the screen character called ghost face? Is that ghost face? Sure. Is that the name of it? I mean, I mean, I mean, that.

Yes. That guy. Okay. And it was red with horns. Oh, okay. Okay. So you were just, you know, like rolling around and collecting candy? Yeah, you know, the thing is, he wore it for four houses and then rolled it off.

Of course. And I, and I just wanted to see the candy. Yes, yes. So, no, I, I, for years now, I have, I have participated by leaving when we go out trick or treating with my son, I leave the thing of candy. We do the same, but we go. So we leave the big thing candy, you know, hopefully one kid doesn't take them all. But hey, what happens happens?

Right. And then we go to this one particular street that, I'll be honest with, some rich folks live there. It's like kind of a contest. Like they've all got like unbelievable decorations and like, I mean, you're talking. They give out the jumbo size candy bars and all that. And I tend to hang out at this one house that has a bar out front. You tend to hang out there. Interesting.

Yes. Jeff Van Gundy lit me up, you know, like seven or eight years ago when I said I keep the lights off. By the way, there's a lot of people keep the lights off, you know. You know, this is something that definitely happened in Texas. The neighborhood, just I live very close to a high school football powerhouse. And they had a playoff game on Friday night. There was quite a few people that were at the game. Oh, yeah. And had their lights off. all right well i i don't brill cream i don't i'm not to do some research on that and i'm in omaha by the way so jackson rolled this out what i'm in and i'm i'm going to be in omaha this week so i don't know the man's the one going to l a this week's true all right we ran out of time

to talk about the nicks and the bulls on psalms i'm sorry they'll be they'll be there'll be more days one a yeah no more days to talk about the win the undefeated bulls the unbeated bulls or no more i only one ellen bulls though all right jackson Jackson is definitely the most talented producer, executive producer. Thank you, Jackson. Thank you, Bontems. Thank you, McMahon. Travel Safe this week.

And we'll talk to you later this week. Adios amigos.