Brian Windhorst & The Hoop Collective - Knicks Stay Alive & Force Game 6, Thunder To Finals, Big Decisions For Minnesota

Episode Date: May 30, 2025

Brian Windhorst is joined by ESPN's Tim Bontemps and Tim MacMahon to react to the Knicks staying alive with a big wire-to-wire win over the Pacers to force a Game 6 including what chances New York has to get to a Game 7. Plus, the Thunder dominate the Wolves to advance to the NBA Finals while looking like the heavy favorite to win it all. Then, the guys discuss some big decisions coming this offseason for Minnesota. Live Show Link: ⁠https://hooplive.eventbrite.com Learn more about your ad choices. Visit podcastchoices.com/adchoices

Hey, sports fans, the ESPN app has all of ESPN all in one place. The ESPN app is your home to thousands of live events, ESPN shows, and originals across every ESPN network and service. And now you can check if you already have ESPN Unlimited as part of your TV package for no additional calls. Visit activate.esPN.com to learn how to access your account or sign up, then start streaming in the ESPN app. It's all of ESPN all in one place. Sign up or activate now. Hello, welcome to the Hoop Collective podcast. We talk about the NBA, which we are doing on early. Actually, we're just ahead of midnight on Thursday night.

Oh, boy. Didn't see that one coming. Joining us from Madison Square Garden, where the Knicks stayed alive with an impressive performance against the Pacers in game five, forcing game six is Tim Bontes. This was another night to be thankful that it's me on the road and not McPan. So we get started earlier. I have to say,

there's merit to that. Joining us from Dallas, Texas, where he's back home after the Western Conference finals concluded I'm home too, although I got Bricktown behind me symbolically, is Ban McMahon. Howdy, partners? It's a tipsy-tiki for the folks watching on YouTube just over Wendy's right shoulder there. I just looked to see if you were there. I thought maybe you would just be like a live shot and you would just be there. Just camped out.

We can go through and I can show you all the different places that I've sat before. Listen, Bont and pure remarkably fast when you don't have to write a freaking word Congratulations. Hey,

listen, I wrote several hundred words off this game, buddy. Just like the game itself, it was over I was done with it before the game was over

because, okay. This is a comprehensive Nick's performance. When you don't have to write a post game word, you dork. Ooh.

Oh. This is all to be over soon because we're going to switch the final schedule soon enough. But the finals is not because the Knicks were terrific from the outset.

I felt they played like it was an elimination game. The Pacers played like it was Tuesday in January. And you felt that right away. And we'll get into the intricacies of it in a minute, but a powerful performance by the two all-MBA players on the Knicks roster. Yeah, I mean, look, the Knicks, this game was very reminiscent of Game 5, of Nick Celtics, where the home team is down 3-1. They come out to play a determined focus game, show they want to keep their season going. The Roe team had a chance to close the series out,

kind of lollipop their way through the game, and sets up what is the most fun game to me in a seven-game series outside of what obvious is a game seven. But when you have the underdog, quote-unquote, in the series, in this case, Indiana, with a three-two lead at home with a chance to close it out. And look, the Knicks, to your point, the two stars of the team, Carl Towns has a sneak contusion. It is a game time decision. He was always going to play. And Jalen Brunson, we talked a lot after game four about how he struggled defensively in the series. He made it clear.

He had to be better and he planned to be better. And he was. And he was excellent in this game. Obviously, it was tremendous offensively. But I thought was much better on defense. and the Knicks in general just really set the tone from the opening tip. This is going to be a physical hard fought game. They led wire to wire.

The Pacers didn't really handle it. And I would argue that we are now looking at a situation where truly for the first time in either this playoff run or last year, the Indiana Pacers come into a playoff game with all the pressure on them. And I am very curious to see how they handled it because they frankly did not handle the moment very well today at all. Yeah, I actually would say, we'll get in this little later. I would say everything's on the table in this series, I feel like.

I know that that sounds like a cop-out answer, but I... Well, I mean, there's only three options on the table. The pace is when it's six, the Knicks win in seven, or the patience won't hit seven. So they're all on the table happen. One of them will happen for sure. It might be equal measure. Well, look, this series is so close. Like, you go back to the game one.

collapse for the Knicks, comeback for the Pacers. That's the difference in the series at this point. I mean, if not for that, then the Knicks are heading to Indiana with a chance to close it out, but now they're desperate. I do agree that the pressure for the first time in the series shifts to the Pacers. They don't want to go back to Madison Square Garden for game seven. And the Pacer showed up like a team that had accomplished something already tonight. and the Knicks showed up like a team that was desperate, which obviously they were.

But, you know, I think you look at points in the paint, 60 to 34, that's the game. One team was in, you know, relentless attack mode. And one team was kind of chilling. More than kind of chilling, chilling. And by the way, the Knicks have now outscored the Pacers by six points in the series. That's how close the series has been through five games. And regulation even more, I think. So, yeah, the Pacers, they scored 100.

30 points in game four. They had 94 tonight. Yeah, first time in the playoffs, they were under 100. I mean, it's with 36 fewer points. I mean, so I think in game four, they had 10 or 11 turnovers tonight. They had 20. Talk about Tyrese Halliburton here in a second. But Halliburton had 12 defensive rebounds in game four. He had two tonight. So he, Halliburton gets a defensive rebound. I'm not saying he push it all 12 times, but Halliburton gets a defensive rebound, it kickstarts their offense

because he throws ahead or plays very fast. So just in the turnover differential and the rebounding differential from Halliburton, they had roughly 20 fewer possessions that they had a chance to start quickly. If you're trying to calculate where the 36 point melt-off came from, we'll start right there.

And I'll say this about Halliburton. Halliburton took seven shots. We'll see, I'll be interested to see I'm doing get up in first take tomorrow Stephen A is back he took today off

so he'll be he'll be raring to go I'll be interested to see how much criticism Haliburton gets for the Dudd game because Aunt got roasted for 13 shots right

the other night so Halliburton takes seven shots let me just say Halliburton has games like this I think I looked it up I think he's got 13 games this year where he scored single digit points. And what's the record in those games? Three in ten.

Exactly. It's either 10 games and three and seven or 13 games and three in ten. And again, with him, it's not about the scoring. Like that record does indicate something, you know, he needs to score some. But, you know, he's not going to have, like, you're not going to expect him to score 32 points on a consistent basis. But it is about the aggressiveness. It is about the, like, making things happen. He didn't make

a whole lot happy. He didn't turn it over again, but he, you know, six assists, only seven shots. It was a lackadaisical type of performance by him, and he sets the tone for the Pacers. It was a lack of desical performance by their whole team. Well, I felt that they pressured him up,

they pressured him further up the court. Because one of the things that, you know, when you looked at the edits that were out there of his baskets and assists, the other night, it was shocking how easily he was able to get ahead of speed and into the lane. Night and day on both sides.

Yeah. And so clearly the Knicks were like, let's, you know, in addition to not allowing the fast breaks, let's make him have to work to get into the lane. And I don't know, I'm not ex and OE enough to be able to tell you

the adjustments that they made. But I feel like just in general defensively, they were just a little sharper and more connected, which is you'd expect in a situation like this. Well, yeah, they were sharper, more connected. And most importantly, they were more physical. They just were the more physical team. And this series, we talked about it coming into the series. These two teams are diametrically opposite, right? The Knicks want to play slow, methodical, grinded out games. The Pacers wanted to be a track meet. And you saw in game four, the Pacers turned it into a track meet. They turned the Knicks over. You ran them out of the gym. Tonight, from the beginning of the game, the Knicks were like, this is going to be a slug fest in the paint, as you mentioned, McMahon. They were relentlessly getting in the paint. Aaron Neesmith, who was great in game four, also awful in this game, one for eight from the field, played 16 minutes, very ineffective. He and Andrew Nemhart and the two games they've lost this series, I believe they are combined eight for 33 from the field.

They were four for 17. Yeah, four for 17 in game three, four for 16 in game five. And Miles Turner was awful. This has been a very bad Miles Turner series. Yeah, he has not made much of an impact at all. He has not made much of an impact at all. And like, look, like I said before, I am really fascinated to see how this Pacer team handles this game Saturday night. Because they, you know, this is the first time, other than Pascal Seaccom, any of these guys have been in remotely this kind of situation before.

Because like I said, I know they played a game seven here at the Garden last year. It was over in the first quarter. That game was over in the first quarter. O'GN and Obie, as we've joked about, tried to jog up and down, couldn't move. Jaylorne Brous said broken wrist. Julius Randall was hurt. Like Mitchell Robinson was out. The Knicks were completely decimated.

I remember after that game, Pascal Seacum kind of like half-heartedly apologized. Not half-heartedly, like half-apologized. Yeah. Because they attacked O.G. and Obi so relentlessly, they had to pull them out of the game. Because it's his teammate. You want a championship team. He felt bad.

Yeah. This just is not going to be that situation on Saturday. Like all the pressure is on Indiana in this game. And it's a huge moment for Halliburton, huge moment for the Pacers. Let's see how they handle it. Yeah, they've been the finals in 25 years. You know, everybody talks about the Knicks. The Pacers haven't been there.

Right. Since they beat the Knicks in the conference finals to the year after. And like this is very much like game five of Pacers Knicks or at Celtics Knicks. And come in here for game six, believe you were here for that game, Brian. the whole world was like, man, the Knicks had better win game six at home. Because if they got to go to Boston, they're going to lose. And I'm not saying the faces are going to lose if it goes to game seven because these teams are very even. We've seen them obviously win a couple games here already.

But let's see if they can have a similar performance to the one the Knicks did when they obviously came out. We're a little frenetic early. The Celtics let them get a lead and then they took off. The Knicks need to do what they did in game five again in game six and get a lead and slow the game down and start to really crank that pressure up on the pacer's and crank up the tension in the crowd in Indiana and then see how everybody handles that moment because it's going to be a very fun experience to sort of see in real time how everybody adjust to that. I feel like there also will be some, you know, so the Knicks probably feel like they've now

can win that game and come. home, like the Knicks can feel like they have taken the momentum. This wasn't a freak out, you know, this wasn't a game where, you know, somebody scored 57 points or there was some one-off situation. Or somebody scored 20 points in the fourth quarter, like in game three. Like the Knicks dominated this game from starting to finish. The Knicks can feel like they're, that they, you know, can duplicate this performance. Yeah, they can feel like they can duplicate this performance, I don't think that the Pacers are going to have that kind of a duddy. I agree, of course.

And, you know, we've talked about my lack of belief and momentum from game to game in a playoff series. There are exceptions, but there wasn't any momentum when Oklahoma City got blown out by 42 in game three. That series is over after five games, and we'll be back in Bricktown next week. You know, I think, look, give the next credit, they came out and played the way they needed to play with their season on the line. But the Pacers came out and played like they were cool closing this thing out in Indiana,

and they better do that. Yeah, the Knicks were 8 of 29 on threes. It wasn't like they were unconscious shooting the ball. And Kat made A3. Cat only shot four. Every other shot Kat took was in the paint. Every bucket he had, aside from one three, was in the restricted area. I think he took 12 shots in the restricted area, and he made eight of them?

Yeah. Yeah. That was in, you know, bully ball attack mode, despite. And again, when he's aggressive, when he's aggressive, they are a much different team. A lot like Alberton for the Pacers. When Carl is really aggressive and forceful offensively, the Knicks look a lot different. And he was that tonight. He was a monster inside.

And again, like, you know, it was another rough Miles Turner game. Like, Pacers didn't play with any force. And they're going to have to play a lot better at home. And again, they've got a whole court advantage. They're in the same spot again that Nick Celtics was. And they could very easily have another easy, comfortable win like they didn't in game four. And it could be a big party in Indianapolis. Wouldn't be a surprise at all.

I don't know if this says something about the Pacers. It says something about the Knicks or it says something about the Cavs. Because in the last series, the Pacers were ahead 3-1, went into Cleveland and absolutely annihilated the calves in that game. So they had been in this spot just last series and did hit the gas. So look, the Knicks, look, on the balance of the season, the Knicks were obviously not better than the cats. But the calves and Pacers played a similar style of basketball, right? Both teams want to run up and down and shoot the ball. And so in that kind of a track meet situation, particularly where the calves didn't have the kind of athletes on the perimeter to really bother Paris Alberton.

Like second quarter of that game, Halbert had 15 points in two and a half minutes, right? He just started banging threes from everywhere and totally game turned into an avalanche. Like the Knicks turned into a rock fight. And if game six is a rock fight, probably fit, probably advantage Knicks like we thought coming into the series. So the question is, can Indiana dictate the terms of engagement like they did in game four, like they did in game two? And if they can, probably a big party over there a couple of days. Jackson, I'm going to, the stat that Jackson just put in the chat, I'm announcing right now that I will be using this aggressively on television tomorrow. It's a great stat. Jackson, is this, is this stat to info? This is a great step. You think Jackson looked it up himself? I hadn't seen it. I was looking at our channel. I hadn't seen it. All right. So in game five tonight, the Pacers were three of 14 shooting with Jalen Brunson as the primary defender. That's 27%. In game, Game 4, I'm sorry, in games 1 to 4, they shot 27 of 40, 68%.

And I'm not even sure how that's calculated because there were times where... No, I know, but there were a lot of times in game 4 where I guess you could technically have said Brunson was the defender, but Paliburton left him in the death. That tracking is imperfect, but that's an alarming contrast. That's a massive turnaround. And it's an indication that Brunson and realized, hey, I'm getting just bull's-eyed, targeted, hunted, and there's the desperation of the season being on the line, and there's pride. And, you know. Yep. He declared he was going to be better on defense, and he was better on defense.

It doesn't turn him into, you know, the second government and Gary Payton, but he was better, and that's what they needed. It won't stop the pastures from trying to hunt him again. No, no. But, hey, you know, let's see how he responds then again. Again, I don't, three or 14s, you know, he doesn't have to repeat that, but it can't be 68%. He can't be. Jackson's saying that he gave a lot more effort getting over screens.

With all due respect, any effort getting around screens in this game would have been better than he was. How about Jackson firing instant basketball takes? Let's go. Jackson getting a little aggressive here. I'm showing his Nick video. Go on the little Nick's Jack and pop on your video. The Wizard of Oz coming in from behind the screen with some basketball thoughts.

Yeah, go on that old starter jacket. Yeah, so. By the way, another crazy Brunton stat. This is his 10th game, this postseason with at least 30 points and five assists. He was one of only four guys to do that 10 times in a postseason. Wizard of the quiz, anybody, anybody? And now to present today's trivia question. The Whizz of the Quiz.

He's one of four guys to have 30 and one of four guys. Have 30 and 10. No, 30 points and five assists 10 times in a single postseason. LeBron had to. LeBron had to do it three times. Yeah. Staff? Nope.

Magic? Nope. Yeah, magic didn't put up 30 that often. Yeah, true. 30, 10 times. Jordan did it three times. And then somebody else? Durant?

Ah, you get the, you're on the right track. You're on the right track with the city, right track with the city. Oh, Shea. Shea this year, yeah. Oh, Shea this year, right. Shea is having, we'll pivot to that in series, man. Shea is having a freaking killer, killer postseason. They got up to a slow start, actually.

He got off to a slow start. Yeah, it's his first two or three games. Yes, by his standards. Yeah. But we'll get to that. get to the little thunders in a little bit. He's closing well just like the straw pole. You know, we didn't mention that.

That's probably why he tossed that in there. It was just because I forgot. I only mentioned it because Brian twice said to me, you know, I want to talk about the straw pole on the pot. Well, we're a little late now, but. Yeah, Montemps is over there stretching his quads trying to get the victory lap. Hey, we talked about it in April.

We knew where the boat was going to land it and landed. So where did the, where did the straw poll predict? Obviously, it predicted Shea, but what was the predicted margin of victory? The straw pole had Sigelsox-Zander and Nicole Yokic getting all 100 first and second-place votes. And I'm pausing because of pulling it up. The straw poll had, she's pretending like you didn't have it right there. No, I looked it up earlier for something else. She had Shea had Shee was 77 first-place votes and Yokic with 23.

the final tally had Shea was 71 and Yocutra 29. Within the margin for air. Eight guys in order, correct. Oh, is that right? That's the first I heard of that. Well, in Bontim's just on a heater. Do you see that look on his face just now? He's like, just so you know.

I'm not worried about the eight, but it was good to have the results be gratified again. Well, I was not in doubt of it at all. No, neither was I. that's just good. No, and listen, he's backed it up with a postseason that... Tim Bond Tem's taking the suspense out of the MVP votes since 2017. There you go.

More Hoop Collective Podcast after this. Well, the suspense was taken out of the Thunder Wolves game, about three minutes in. I mean, holy, moly. I saw Mike Breen tonight. Mike Breen fan at MSG, rare moment for him. Got to see a Nick win. And I was talking about his call in the game and how at one point in the second order, he just said it's,

he said essentially, I'm paraphrasing, I don't remember exactly how he put it, but you just don't see a performance like this in the conference finals. And to see the thunder just completely dismantle and overwhelm the timber walls like that was unbelievable. And it all starts on the defensive end. When that defense is in its Hornets Nest mode, like, good luck. Good luck.

Julius Randall was in hell. Nas Reed. I mean, he was a whole wolf's team. Nasree just kept falling down. Well, and like Shay said, Jay said, you know, we made it tough on the guys that we were supposed to make it tough on. And he goes, well, we made it tough on everybody. And it was true. I mean, the freaking Timberwolves.

with their season on the line, scored nine points in the first quarter, and had more turnovers than buckets in the first half. And it's not the first time this postseason that the Thunder opponents had more turnovers than buckets in a half. Well, and the other thing about the Thunder, too, is that they are not afraid to leave open guys. They're not as worried about. And you saw the beginning of that game.

Like, Dave McDaniels got several wide open looks in the first quarter, and he took him, didn't hesitate to take them, but he missed them. I think they started like 1 of 13 or something like that. He was 06 pretty early. And if you get shots like that against this Thunder team and you don't make them and they get out in open air like they did in that game and the crowd is going and the athletes are flying around, I mean, it becomes a tsunami really fast. And that was just unbelievable to watch.

Then Kaysen Wallace and Caruso check in. I know. My God. Yes. disruptive defensive players. Yes. Oh my goodness. Caruso was unleashing hell.

I mean, he's just, he's, he might be the best help defender in the league. I would remove. It's just a havoc that he creates. And then he can't do it for 45 minutes in a game, but when he's on the court, Al Truzzo is just unbelievable. Yeah. And he makes the trade on the ball. Which again, makes the Josh Giddy trade again.

Oh, that I mean. terrible. Well, look, look, they're so terrible. Right now. He was leaving the bowl as regardless, but yeah, can you squeeze a pick out of the guy who's got a money? I mean, just get, get a kiddo, like, look at what this guy is doing for this Thunder team. I mean, my God, what,

what are you doing here? And it's not like there wasn't a market for him. There was multiple teams. But I was talking to Daggonaut, and he basically said, hey, as good as he is on the ball, he's at his best. He's the most disruptive when he can kind of rove or play

Yes. He compared it to Dr. The thing about it is, is it Yes, that's exactly what he's like. It's so, we've reached an era in the NBA where teams,

switching is so commonplace that teams just allow the switch. Even good defensive teams, the screen is set, and they just allow the switch. And you're more managing what happens after the switch. The Thunder are like,

no, gosh, darn it. We ain't allowing the freaking switch. so easily. So you got Dort who just absolutely refuses. He comes over the top all the time. And then when Dort is tired, they sub in Caruso. And Caruso was like, okay, well, now you have to try to set a screen

on me. I'm fresh. And Casey Wallace might be their best on-ball defender. Yeah, in Casey Wallace is awesome. I mean, they're careful. Dort was fourth in defense player of the year voting, but Kaysen Wallace might be their best on-ball defender. And, yeah, I mean, you know, talking to

Caruso, Wallace doesn't know what he's doing. Like, he didn't know tendencies of opponents. He doesn't really know scouting reports yet. Like Caruso's trying to teach him like all this nuance. And Wallace kind of looks at him like, are you talking about dude? Like just wherever he goes, I'm going to be there. And then if it puts the ball in front of me, I'm going to rip it away. It is.

It's absolutely unbelievable to watch them, to watch them cook on defense. It's so much fun to watch. And then you go to the other end and you got the MVP to league, just getting wherever he wants. Every time he shoots in the mid range is automatic. Like they're, look, you have. That series strong too. So did James. He's playing great.

Yes, those guys are playing great. I mean, look, I thought in the fourth quarter of game five in the second round that the finals were decided, barring catastrophe. And it sure as hell feels that way right now. Like, this is a great series. I'm very excited to see how this game goes Saturday. But I was talking a few people about it here. It's very hard, as good as these teams are. They're really good teams.

They've had great seasons. Like, whoever wins the series is going to be a deserving Easter conference champion. and the golf between them and what they're about to face, I mean, it is going to be, it's going to be potentially a historic credit to Nicole Yokic that that series went the full seven and went the way it did because, man,

there, there looks like there's a cavernous gulf between the thunder and everything else. I have a couple of sobering things to say here. Moe with a tipsy tiki in the background. The thunder are 80 and 18 this year. That's pretty good. It's pretty good. And I'd also like to point out they went 29 and one against the Eastern Conference.

Yeah, and bomb temps was at the one. Yes, they've never let them live it down. In Cleveland. And, you know, look, there's disturbances in the force starting to happen on the Janus front and potentially on the KD front. And we're going to see some significant transactions, I believe, in the next four or five weeks. But I just want to point something out. You could argue that the most relevant.

trade in 2023, 24 to the championship was Drew Holiday getting traded to the Celtics. Yeah. And we'll see what happens with the Knicks. I mean, the Knicks could come back and win this series and towns could be the key reason, but, or bridges, but you could argue that the most impactful trade would go with regards to the championship in the 2024, 25 season was Alex Caruso. So, again, I don't think that's arguable either. Well, I mean, listen, never say.

Well, if Towns goes for two 40-point games, we'll have a different discussion. Bigger upsets have happened, but Oklahoma City is clearly heavy favorites rolling into the finals with them. But I'm just saying, like, you know, obviously there's a reason there's a lot of detention paid to star player trades. Right. You got a great, great defensive by impact role players. Help you enjoy. Oh, and Drew Holliday and Ask Rousseau are. not, I would, I would also not quite call them role players. They might end up as role.

They might, I'm just saying that I agree with you. Caruso is the end of hit me of a role player. He's an excellent role. He's average double figures once in his college in NBA career. I understand that. I'm more saying that like a role player saying he's a role player, I think, undersells his impact. He obviously is a, he obviously is a role player from that. He's something more than a role player. He's something more than a role player. He's a guy who he's a role player

he's a high impact role player. He finishes the games, just like Drew Holiday finishes the game. As a role player. Yeah. And Bon Tempt, you of all people should have an appreciation for role players.

Jackson, I wish we could get the end of the season we could get a montage of McMahon, you know, ripping on Bontems. It would be iconic. More Hoop Collective podcast after this.

all right. I do want to talk about the Timberwolves. Went to the Timberwolves post game. And I was traveling today, so I don't 100% know how the Ant press conference was perceived. I know that the morning ESPN shows made a big deal of it or made a deal of it. Maybe not a big deal. I was there for the whole thing. I actually thought Ant was, the sound bite that's out there is, you know, Ant's saying, I'm excited.

I'm not hurting. I think he was prompted with that with the question. Are you hurting? Yeah. I mean, Spears asked him about, I don't remember exactly the question, but essentially how painful is it to lose like this? And he was like, it's not painful for me. It's going to be fine.

I feel bad for Mike. It was Mike Connolly who was sitting next to him. And I want to be clear, Ant had empathy for Conley in that press conference. Right. That was all point of his answer. He didn't give a whole other answer about, I know, but try to come back and win for Mike again next year. I know, but that's not the way it was digested by.

many people. Do people expect Anthony Edwards to sit up there and have a bucket of tears next to him? Apparently. Is anybody? Apparently. Is he supposed to cut a vein open and talk about what a failure he is? Listen, he is. He's 23 years old.

He's been to the conference finals back to back times. Now it doesn't guarantee he'll ever be back on that stage. But I like his odds. Yeah, it'd be one thing if he said, hey, like we're good, man. We'll be fine. No, what do he say? He said, I'm going to work harder than anybody this summer. Like, he's not, he's not like, if they're fat and happy.

Yeah, I happen to be watching it live. It's just very, I mean, the whole tenor of his answer was, yeah, I'm young guy. I'll be okay. I feel bad for my vet who I want to win a title for it, which like, sure, I don't know. It's, well, I don't even want to discuss it more than that. Look, I think, aunt, there are times that you can pluck out both on the court and off or aunt shows he can still add some maturity. Oh, for sure.

But I honestly think that Ant is thoughtful and deep. Much more thoughtful and deep than it than it. Yeah, look, here's all we have to say about Anthony Edwards. Henry Edwards is a fantastic player. He's probably now a top 10 player in the league. Somewhere in that conversation, you could argue he's a top 10 player. He might not be, but he's in the discussion. And if he wants to get where he hopes to go, he's got to make meaningful improvements.

And they've got to improve the roster to. Well, sure. They obviously have to get better because they've got this behemoth. They have to try to get past and we'll see if they can. But Anthony Edwards in particular has got to become a much better playmaker. He's got to become a much more overall complete player. He's got to be a more focused player. All of which is fine. Like he's a phenomenal player. This is what happens. It's happened to every player in the history of the sport, basically, except for Magic Johnson. You have to get into playoffs and have some failure and have some success and get better and improve. And like, he's great.

And, you know, it's going to be, you know, let's see what he looks like next year after a full off season to work on his game and not play with Team USA and be able to get his body right and be ready to go. And, you know, I expect him to be awfully good again next year. And it is going to be an interesting off season for the Minnesota Timberwolves who have some real key free agents to deal with. And by the way, I think that he has worked very hard on his game. Of course he has. He's awesome. Yeah, he doesn't have come that kind of high volume three point shooter.

Exactly. And let me just say something about him. It wasn't he, arriving in the league is like an elite shooter. That's work. Let me just say something about Ant that I think is helpful to understand when you watch him and hear him communicate. And this I learned from reading Chris Hine of the Star Tribune's book called Ant.

You have to understand. and I talked to Chris about this when he came on the pod to talk about. Aunt, when he was a young teenager, lost his mother and grandmother in like a 14-month span to cancer. They both died of cancer in 14 months. And I don't want to say he was homeless, like not on the street, but he didn't have a solid place and he could call home. He was living with siblings.

He was living with friends. And, you know, basketball was obviously an escape. But basically, he made it through that with basketball, video games, and a positive attitude. And so, Ant has dealt, and I wouldn't claim that I've known him his whole life, but I have been a significant amount of time around him the last two summers of Team USA

and these couple of playoff runs where I've covered the wolves. I think Ant a lot of times is like, always, it's like, I'm going to stay upbeat. My defense mechanism is going to be to stay upbeat. And I can't relate to what he went through as a teenager, but just know that about him, that Ant's reaction and how he's dealt with some of the hardest parts of his life

is to stay upbeat. Look, Anne is not without his flaws, but we're not going to sit here in question his competitiveness because he said he's excited at 23. I'm going on. I think we can move on from the end. I know. I understand.

I'm just talking about Ant in general, not just about his press conference. Sure. All right. Let's talk about the world's off season, which is pretty interesting. Hold on. So Chris Finch said something very interesting.

interesting, and I also think candid when it was over. Finch had a very good press conference. It was happening during the trophy presentation, so I'm not sure how much anybody saw. What Finch, Finch was talking about, you know, really in relation to Mike Conley, who was near the end of his career, just how difficult it is to get back to where they are. And he's like, there's going to be 13 or so teams in the West next year who think that they're going to be able to do this exact thing. I mean, actually, I think he said 15,

and I'm going to edit him to 13, because I don't really suspect the jazz, and maybe the Blazers think that they can do it, but I'm not going to put the Blazers there yet. But the other 13 teams, you know, pending what happens with the Pelicans and other stuff, like, are probably going to come into next season thinking they can make the top six.

And Finch said, we could not we he said you a team could have a really good season in the west next year and finish 42 and 40 yeah I thought that was relevant and uh especially when if I were yonis I thought thinking about my situation but also relevant to the challenges that the wolves have in front of them because remember they did finish six now I know the difference between six and third or whatever it's always one or two games it's not like they were but distant but still this team finished sixth and so yeah they have they have the free agents we've talked about it for a while

Julius Randall Nasreid Akila Alexander Walker who by the way was that was his last game as a Timberwolf he was terrific in their victory in game three or game three and in game four he had a great game but yeah he was it was a rough road series for him and all their role players really yeah so

But a couple of things I'll say about the wolves. Number one, they got to make sure their general manager is taking care of. Dear President, Tim Connolly has an opt-out in his contract that he built in last year that he has because the team sale didn't close. And so he rolled it over, and he is a free agent to be. He's just as much of a free agent to be as Julius Randall who's going to opt out of his player option, I expect. And so they got the new ownership, Mark Lorry and Alex Redder

Riga's got to lock him down. I assume that they will, but I'm just saying that he's not locked down. The second thing is, and I know that this is typical revisionist stuff, and so I acknowledge that it's not revisionist, but, you know, post-

hindsight trade deadline discussion, which always, you know, gets a little hazy. I, it became clear to me in talking to the parties involved, just how serious the wolves were about trying to trade for Kevin Durant at the trade deadline. Now, at the time, the wolves were not playing their best basketball. They subsequently finished the season, I think, 18 and 5 and got to the Western Conference

finals. So I don't want to make it imply that their mindset is that there's still where it was in February. Also, it would have been an extraordinary, complicated series of deals to be able to which is why they couldn't do it. But the point is, this wasn't just like, well, we're not doing anything on trade deadline day. There were masch and a, you know, they made some sort of progress. Getting it done was impossible. They're two second apron teams. But after these guys opt out, the wolves will not be a second apron team.

Now, they would have to maybe sign and trade, whatever. I'm just, I'm not arguing that Durant's going to end up in Minnesota. I'm just saying that there was a point. And, you know, if you look at Tim Connolly, he made the big Gobert trade. he made the big you know, trading cat for Julius Randall and DeFincenzo trade.

He likes to make, he's showing the defense. I mean, going back to Aaron Gordon, Denver. That was a great trade. That was arguably the key piece to put them

into a championship. It was definitely the final piece. It just was delayed by Murray's knee injury. Right. So I would just say, yes, it's possible,

as we've talked about, that they will re-sign Randall and Reed and maybe say goodbye to gnaw. But I also want to say that I got the coach talking about how jammed and tight the West is, and you might have to be, you might have to have a great season to finish over 500. And I got evidence that the president, assuming he resigns, is going to maybe go big game hunting. That's what I would say about the wolves bondups.

Go ahead. Yeah, I mean, I think the, I mean, sure, I would say the more relevant thing is they've got three pretty important free agents to figure out between Julius Randall, Nas Reid, into Keel Alexander Walker and I don't think they can really afford to lose any of them. I'm not sure they're going to keep them all, but Kea Alexander Walker is awfully good

and I think it's sort of just been assumed that if they lose any of those guys are going to lose him, but I mean if he's not on their team next year, I think that's a real blow. And like you said, you're talking about this team is already, as we sit here right now, the wolves aren't good enough.

So if they're the wolves right now minus one of those guys next year or that's the second apron in action well well but you know what it is but i'm just saying like that's it's you know well they're hoping that tarran shannon junior right i was going to say sure who did show something in this series when he got his chance like he showed a lot in they don't play the same type of way but you know if you're looking for a motivational player no sure i mean it's it's just something to think about like it's like yeah it's the whole point of the second apron it's what the league is designed to do right now, but we spent all this time talking about how this team

isn't good enough. And they've got some key players that are up that they have to figure out on and they are expensive. And if they want to make any trades like this, they're going to have to move a bunch of guys to do it. Like, you know, and they could very quickly, if they do that being a scenario not too similar than the one that the team Kevin Durant currently on is in. So it's, you know, it's a very difficult challenge to try to level up from where they are, which is making the conference finals back to back years. And it's only made more difficult because when you look across the floor, the team they are playing is better than them, deeper than them, has more assets than them, and has a longer runway than them,

despite the fact that they have Anthony Edwards on their team. That is a very, you want to talk about sobering thoughts? That is a very sobering thought. Yeah, the Thunder have the best player in that series and probably, I'm going to say three and four. And then if we're going to rank out like the top 15, they might have like eight or nine of those. Just leave it at that. Just leave it at that. They have the best player. They have the better depth and they have far more resources to get better going forward. If you're trying to catch them, good luck. Although I think their resources are going to be used more to manage payroll.

than to... I'm just saying. However, I'm not saying they're turning them into star players. They just, they have infinite resources from a draft standpoint. They've got infinite depth. They've got the MVP of the league. And they're the youngest team to make the finals since the 77 Blazers. Like, they got a lot going on.

And they're the only team, or one of four teams in NBA histories. Jackson's thrown in here to have 80 wins going into the finals. You go back to the 15, 16 Warriors and a couple of jewelry. Gordon Bulls teams. Yeah. Like it's, this is a jett or not. They're also,

um, not paying the luxury tax. Yeah. I mean that that's, I know, I know, but like it's, it's been a,

I'm trying to think of the last team that won the title that didn't pay the tax. I believe it was when the Lakers won. In the bubble, I believe. Um, the first year with LeBron and AD. But it rarely,

it rarely happens. And look, here's the other thing I'll say. 10 years ago, when the Thunder were last in this position, Sam Presti had spent years preparing to pay heavy luxury tax bills in the future with the big three as they aged in, right? Obviously, Kevin Durant left. They went and got Paul George, Carmelo Anthony, et cetera. But the Thunder with that Carmelo Anthony, Paul George, Russell Westbrook team paid a boatload of money in luxury tax. And I can

promise you, I have not talked to say them about this, but I've covered the league for a long time. I've known San Presti for a long time. I have no doubt that the Thunder have spent the past couple years or several years preparing for a future where they're going to be a very expensive team. So the idea that they're going to, oh, we're just going to, they're going to trade away all the start players, are going to get in the second April. They're not going to be able to afford it. I feel pretty comfortable saying the Thunder will be prepared to have this team be a team in this sort of situation for a very long time. They learned a lot of lessons, which they would admit, maybe not on the record, but they

would admit they learned a lot of lessons from that. And they had bad luck. Durant lost the one year to the foot injury, what Russ Brooke hurt his knee. Of course. You know, they traded James Hardin when they couldn't agree to a contract after his third season. Right. This is Chet and Jaila Williams' third seasons.

You want to bet they get these dudes into contracts? I would anticipate those guys are going to be an okay. for a long time to come. And look, if you're going to be a luxury tax team, be a luxury tax team as playing into late May and June on a regular basis and be a luxury tax team that is having an arena built for you, a brand new arena built for you. By the way, can I just say,

I've spent a lot of time, obviously, this year in, what's it called, Paycom Center? Is that a great job with that arena? I'll say this. It's full and it's loud. They're replacing. it obviously because it's not

It doesn't happen modern bells and whistles I understand it's a great arena I'm telling you it's a great arena it's a great atmosphere yeah

you know there's there's some arenas there's some arenas and they're still not great arenas and you're like boy they they went cheap on that

and you know it looks a little bit nicer but it's not a great arena this arena they've got a great arena that is a terrific show place I would say it's a top three

place to watch a game in the league with Boston, here at Madison Square Garden, and Oklahoma City, and it turns atmosphere. Let me think about that. I don't disagree with you. I'm excited. I haven't been at a Thunder playoff game since Game 6 in 2016.

I am in Oklahoma City. I am very excited to experience that atmosphere again. Yesterday was the anniversary of that. We were running the highlights on various platforms on ESPN. I'm sure the Thunder did not appreciate it. but Clay, I'm sure it. Thompson, not Bennett. But it'll be a terrific place to have the finals.

Oh, it's going to be awesome. A little tough to get in and out of there, but whatever. Had to fly dramatically out of the way today. Oh, okay. Now we're getting windy travel updates. Okay. Yeah, yeah.

I just took a hop, just jump home. Whoop. Plane went up, plane went down, and there it was, right, right, my front door. You just finished your first cocktail.

Did that drive for one time and said, nope, can't do it again. A little under the weather. Yeah, do it again. A little under the weather. Just sipped on some water. Also, I'm not a cocktail guy. Ceres, so long day. That is right.

All right. Well, when we talk to you again, maybe we'll know the finals match up. Maybe. Or maybe we won't. I ain't taking anything off the table. You can mock me for taking that position. Yes, again, Brian, with the dramatic position. that either the Knicks or the Pacers

could win game six. Well, Jackson, what's the... Both options are on the table. It's a 50-50 proposition. There's a game seven. I think coming into today, the Knicks were 30 to 1 to win the championship. Okay, that's different.

But, you know, what were the Pacers? I mean, you know, I'm just telling you, I think it's closer to even than you would think. I don't think we're going to find Wendy like the roulette tables in Vegas. No, I don't feel pretty confident about that. Oh, that's right. Just in case you missed it.

Third annual, Hoop Collective Live Show in Las Vegas at the MGM Grand Brad Garrett's Comedy Club July 12th, Saturday, July 12th, during Summer League, 6 p.m. I received some mocking today from some people for the 6 p.m. start time. Look.

Where are your pregame? What's that? We are your pregame. Yes, of course. You come to that, and then you go out to Vegas and gamble. I'm not, you know, this is not a midnight. show. Bontemps doesn't show on any leg. All right, hooplive. Eventbright.com for tickets and information. I think some league, I know it's, you know, I know Wendy, it's a chore to get you to work

at that point of the year. But I do think it's the perfect time for us to have this because, listen, you do it like the hardcore NBA fans flock to Summer League. And it's not like the in season tournament where people don't know who's going to beat them. Every team's going to be there. So I think this is going to be a, I think this has a chance to be something that sticks on an annual basis. Oh, really?

I think this could be a typical event for the collective, I would say. All right, well, to negotiate that, sir. But. For the right price. Yeah. All right. Thank you to Jackson for not sleeping in the playoffs. Thank you to Bon Temps for staying up late and going home

and changing diapers. Thank you to McMahon fighting through a cold. by taking a 35-minute flight from Oklahoma City to Dallas. Thank you for watching, listening to Hoop Collective. I said we would talk to you next week. I was totally out of sorts of what day it was. Bon Temps is now trying to talk me into doing the podcast Saturday night after Game 6. To be clear, this is a Jackson idea, not a Me idea.

This is a Jackson idea. I didn't say it was your idea. I said you were trying to talk me into it. Right. Just think the people are going to want live reaction to Game 6 in Indianapolis. All right, well, we may have the podcast post on Sunday. Now that I've said it, I've kind of talked, I've kind of painted myself into the corner.

Or we may not. One of those two will be true. Like everything else, it's all up in the air. You'll never know. On the table, as Jackson says. It's on the table. Well done. And with that, adios amigos.